Estate Wars and how to avoid them: The case of Aretha Franklin's millions, and the Prince intestacy

Ever wondered what happens when a loved one passes away without a will and the repercussions it can have on a family? Join us as we shed light on the little-known term 'intestacy' and unravel the bitter dispute between the sons of music legend Aretha Franklin over her multi-million-dollar estate. Our esteemed host Bob Sewell, plays guest this time and the amazing David Williams is our host. Both are partners in the law firm of Davis Miles. Bob offers his legal expertise on the topic, giving us a firsthand account of how intestacy laws work and the role of the state government in such matters. 

In the second part of our conversation, we explore the often-underestimated power of mediation in resolving family disputes. Bob shares his rich experiences as a mediator, enlightening us on how this often overlooked tool can be used to not only resolve disputes but also preserve treasured family relationships. We delve into the role of the mediator and why it's better to settle disputes rather than leaving the decision to a judge. Bob's gives a unique perspective on family disputes and how they can be managed while minimizing the emotional trauma they often inflict on relationships. Tune in, as we navigate the intertwining worlds of family, law, and money.

Transcript

Bob Sewell: 0:00

It's a phrase from popular movies. It's also a question that comes up in our daily life. The question is is that even legal? We talk about the things that drive you crazy, the things you won't believe and the things you need to know and understand. I'm attorney Bob Sewell and this is the podcast. Is that Even Legal? Let's get started.

David Williams: 0:29

Welcome Cyber Universe. My name is David Williams. I am your less attractive but replaceable guest host for the iconic and irreplaceable Bob Sewell. If you are listening to us, this is the. Is that Even Legal podcast? No, you have tuned into the correct podcast. Today, bob, our intrepid host is, instead of being the host, is going to be the importer of information to us.

Bob Sewell: 1:02

Yeah, you know it.

David Williams: 1:03

And is going to woo us and dazzle us with his expertise. And so Bob is so humble. He comes on here with every podcast and has these invigorating guests who talk about an array of subjects, but Bob never tells you about himself. So let me tell you, never, never. Let me tell you how great my friend Bob is. First of all, bob is a probate litigator and a partner at the law firm of Davis Miles McGuire Gardner, and he is one of the leading experts in the state on helping families navigate the legal, the litigation process when there is a dispute over moms and dads and uncles, stuff that they leave. That a good way to say it, bob yeah yeah, dead people, I do dead people stuff.

David Williams: 1:52

That's a good way of saying it. So, Bob, let me sort of set the stage for today's discussion with you. There are a lot of it seems that there are a lot of famous celebrities in this world that die without an estate plan or without a will. Prince, Bob Marley, Howard Hughes, even Abraham Lincoln, all died without a will.

Bob Sewell: 2:15

That one gets me yeah.

David Williams: 2:19

And you have these individuals not even just you and me off the street, but individuals who spend their lifetime building a legacy and a public image, and wealth and legacy and a lot of it they want to transfer to their children, but they don't take the steps to do that. So let me give you the most recent tragic example of this Aretha Franklin.

Bob Sewell: 2:43

Yes!

David Williams: 2:44

Queen of Soul, the RESPCT of Soul. You're right, yeah, she passed away at the age of 76 in 2018 from pancreatic cancer. She had four sons One son was developmentally had some developmental challenges, and then she had three other sons. She had a large estate worth millions and millions of dollars, tens of millions of dollars, involving copyrights from her recorded works, but then also her physical assets, her real estate, her personal belongings and sort of. The crown jewel of her private property was a multimillion dollar estate that she lived in her primary home, and so the issue was, on Tuesday, july 11th, a trial was had.

David Williams: 3:36

A jury trial was had between three out of the four sons over Ms Franklin's estate, and, specifically, there were two different wills at issue, both handwritten one will that was found in a lock cabinet in 2010, and another will, which was handwritten, which was found in a notebook in between the couch, the cushions of her couch, and so one will what we call the 2014 will, the one that was in the couch and the 2010 will both handwritten wills and one will favored one son at the expense of another son, specifically who got this beautiful home that Ms Franklin had lived in for a number of years and one will. The 2014 will gave the house to one son. The 2010 will required that the home be sold and the assets, the value of the home, be split amongst the four kids. So that's what they were fighting over, and so I guess my question is to have a fight over two handwritten wills, is that even legal?

Bob Sewell: 4:45

Oh, absolutely, it's legal to have that fight and sometimes it's necessary to have the fight tragic, pathetic. I mean the thought that a person of that much wealth who has needs right I mean, if you have a special needs son, you have a special needs family you need to carefully plan for these people with special needs so we don't interrupt their lives, because you can interrupt someone's life Tragically if you don't plan properly. But yeah, you can have two handwritten wills and would not know which is the operative will, and ironically you can end up with two wills, right. I mean, so in this situation you can have one will and the one will says give to everything among my children equally I don't know if that's what it said and another will that says give disproportionately to my son Frank, or, better yet, to Bob Sewell, the host of. Is that even legal? You could have that, and in certain circumstances that second will could just be thought of as modifying the first will. And so then you have to try to make the two wills work together. It's not pretty.

David Williams: 6:01

That's. It is tragic. Like you said, Before we get into breaking this down and dissecting what happened here and maybe along the way, I really like to hear your insight on some of the things that you've seen on how these will fights or fights between family members over deceased loved ones, assets happen. But before we get there, let's talk about this, because there are a lot of people that end up in these family disputes. So there's a couple of terms that are kicked around that I think we need to define for our audience. First of all, intestacy what is that?

Bob Sewell: 6:36

That's the feeling you get when you've eaten that Taco Bell.

David Williams: 6:41

Wow, okay, I experienced that quite a bit. Okay, good to know.

Bob Sewell: 6:46

It's a tragic disease. You could dive no, it's. It just means he didn't have a will on intestacy.

David Williams: 6:51

Okay, now, when someone dies without a will, how does it? How does that? How does their stuff, the things they've acquired in life? How does it get shared amongst their, their, their surviving family members?

Bob Sewell: 7:03

So yeah, if you don't have a will, the state government has a plan for you and, of course, like all things governmental, it's well thought out.

David Williams: 7:14

Of course it is, it's just exactly what you wanted. So in that situation, when you die without a will, the state is going to tell you what happens to your stuff. Right, all right. So, like, for instance, prince, he died without a will. Right and now the state is basically telling his children or his, his loved ones how this stuff is going to be divided out. So yeah and think about that.

Bob Sewell: 7:34

So you have a catalog and the catalog of of copyrights and music and it's making money and some songs make more than others and maybe some songs get popular at you know, have it. It gets put on a movie and it's worth more, and another song gets put on a movie later. It's impossible to divide this up.

David Williams: 7:56

Okay, so and that's so. That's one issue. So then you get into this other thing, which was more what happened with Aretha Franklin, and you have these handwritten wills, and I've heard the term holographic will.

Bob Sewell: 8:10

And.

David Williams: 8:10

I'm assuming that's not like beam me up Scotty kind of language. But what is a holographic will and why is it legal?

Bob Sewell: 8:18

Well, it's legal in in every state that I know of. Maybe there's a state that does not legal, but I can't think of it. But it's basically a will written out by your own hand and I, and the idea is we get to control how we say it and the government how we distribute our stay, and the government shouldn't control each and every aspect of your life, and we want to make it easy for people to make a will. Unfortunately, there are some people who make good holographic wills because they have some sort of expertise or use some sort of, they read some sort of manual on how to do it or they are just really intelligent and think through things. And then the rest of us who don't have the training, and then we write out the will and we forget things and we forget important parts and and the government has a plan for that too, and it's called litigation.

David Williams: 9:14

Okay. So then let me give you another fact pattern, and because I guess where I'm going with all this is, all of these fact patterns all result in family members suing each other. So another fact pattern I've seen is where grandpa Joe did it right he hired a lawyer. His lawyer drew up an estate plan with a trust and and and a will that maybe catches those things and puts them in the trust. But then sometime along the way, grandpa Joe is starting to not remember things and he's he's not. He's not recalling things and his, his competency is in question. And then suddenly, son, his second son, who's maybe the, the, the black sheep of the family comes into grandpa Joe as he's sitting on his death bed and has grandpa Joe rewrite his entire estate plan and then the other kids that got written out of the newest state plan that was put out by the black sheep. That then happens. Is that a fact pattern that you've seen before all?

Bob Sewell: 10:13

the time. Okay, you know, if we call that undo influence and it's, it's really, it's really dangerous to a well working system and the probate system is have those late wills and but yeah, it happens all the time where you you put your uncle Bill, he knows you are, but he and he knows generally what he owns, but he's not quite firing on all cylinders and you put an hey, don't you want to sign this, uncle Bill, you know, give the affirmative, not all, okay, I'll sign this, you know, and they believe everything you say because they're in that state of mind. You know that.

Bob Sewell: 10:50

that sort of thing is tragic.

David Williams: 10:51

Yeah and it. So let's talk about what happens then when you've got these different situations where maybe someone dies without a will, that in test to see Taco Bell disease, the, or they die, or they have a do it yourself kind of will, like this holographic will, or they have a situation where one family member tried to take advantage of grandpa Joe and now you end up in a fight, but at the end of the day, what you have is a fight between family members. Explain to your audience If I'm a family member who's been, let's say, affected by the black sheep who took advantage of grandpa Joe, or in the situation where we have two competing wills, like the Aretha Franklin situation. What's the process there? What is that involved in? How do I fix what I think is a wrong or get the right will in front of a in to be the one that's the one that applies.

Bob Sewell: 11:46

Okay. So basically you have to file a lawsuit in you. You know that the person who's aggrieved has to ask the probate court within a specific period of time to say, hey, that will, that second will or that holographic will, it doesn't say what people think it's saying, or I have a different interpretation, or I don't. I don't like it because I think it's the product of under influence or a mind that lack capacity. So you end up you have to tell the judge what theory you have, why the will should not be interpreted the way it was in terms of ways being interpreted, or why the will should be thrown out all together. And then you have to have the theory of what replaces it and generally that what replaces it is either intestacy or the previous will. The previous will is revived.

Bob Sewell: 12:42

It's a very difficult process. It's not. It's the best. It's not a fair process. I'm gonna be honest not a fair process. People don't leave probate court and say that was fair. They're frustrated by it. It's the best process we have. I think it's the fairest thing that we could come up with in our system, the system we have. But it's tough, it's frustrating, it's challenging for people.

David Williams: 13:08

So in my practice I'm also a litigator in trial. You and I are both trial attorneys, right and, and we represent people in an adversarial system where you've got and especially it would seem like in probate, in contests between family members in probate court, that can be a pretty while. It can lead to an outcome that maybe someone gets at the end of the day by resolution by a court, like in this Aretha Franklin case where they had a trial over which will was the right will. But what are some? What are some negative things about this process? I mean, we've seen that you can get a result and it's a necessary evil sometimes we have to do, but what are some things that people maybe don't realize when they go into this process of probate litigation?

Bob Sewell: 13:54

Costs. The costs are phenomenal. I mean because most people are of normal means when you die, it's not like there's a big payday at the end, and so you have to really pay attention to cost because it could, they could spin out of control because the procedures are complicated and the process is built in to allow for the fairest possible resolution, which requires time. And one thing that people don't realize is let's take the position of Aretha Franklin okay, the personal representative has to defend the wills. So they offer these wills to the court and they say judge, these are the wills, and this is the interpretation I think applies. Will you bless my interpretation? They generally the person that's the personal representative's job would be in that situation is to present the fight to the court. Will you bless my interpretation?

Bob Sewell: 14:57

And then that personal representative has to defend those wills in that position, and they don't have to defend too hard in all circumstances, but sometimes they will, sometimes they have to, and then everyone else has to fight and that requires the personal representative to do things in the process, and that means that there's only one bucket of money right and that means that I'm literally suing myself, I'm diminishing that bucket of money that's coming to me. You know, if there's a hundred dollars in the bucket and I sue the crap out of that bucket, there's no hundred dollars left for me to inherit. And that's what people don't realize that they are suing themselves sometimes and it's brutal.

David Williams: 15:44

So it sounds like there's a cost financially, that they have to pay their lawyer. But then, as they fight over the bucket or the pot of gold, right, the pot of gold gets smaller and smaller and smaller, right, um, let me ask you. I mean, these are, these are families that are fighting over stuff Beyond just the cost of the, the, the financial cost of fighting and litigation. What other things do you see as far as how these families interact?

Bob Sewell: 16:08

dude it is. It is pathetic and sad. I remember one time I'm in a mediation in this family, you know, they didn't ever learn how to get along. Okay, and I'm sitting in this mediation and this is, you know, decade or go, more go. And I had talked to my guy many times as we're going into the mediation, okay, you can't, you're here to compromise, you're here to find a resolution.

Bob Sewell: 16:35

Let's, let's identify what's your floor. My floor is X. Okay, let's just say that was fifty thousand bucks. It was just just for argument sake. It's fifty thousand bucks, I don't remember what it was. And we walk in and we go back and forth and I get him to X plus 15. Okay, and I Say, all right, you're there, I Don't think we're going any higher and they're definitely not. I don't think they're going any higher and you're not going any lower. So I think we've reached a, reached a conclusion, do you accept? And the guy just sat there, puzzled, frustrated, and it finally dawns on me, as I'm talking him through it, that fight was the last he had of his family.

David Williams: 17:29

That was it when the fight was over.

Bob Sewell: 17:33

He didn't have one ounce of relationship left, nothing. He was walking away from that relationship with 65 thousand dollars, or whatever the number was, and he had nothing else but 65 thousand dollars.

David Williams: 17:48

That's crazy. Let me let me read you a quote. And it was brutal. Let me let me read you a quote from the Aretha Franklin.

David Williams: 17:55

This was from her niece, who was serving as the executor of the estate, who was not one of the beneficiaries that was fighting over the stuff. But she has a long quote and and the niece had resigned as the Personal representative. But she says this in spite of my best efforts, my role with the estate has become more contentious with the heirs and why she resigned. And then she goes on to say Given my aunt's deep love of family and desire for privacy, this is not what she would have wanted for us, nor is that what I want. And I think she's referencing the, the family trauma, the scarring that's gonna be left, because now you've got family members that may not be able to sit down over a Thanksgiving table. So let me ask you this Is there a better way? When you get into these Contested disputes, because you're an advocate, you're hired to represent the interests of a family, but is there a better way to try to resolve these?

Bob Sewell: 18:53

Yes, yes and it's. I think we've got to look at the people as holistic people. We have to look at them, as you know, as not only just People lit against who are trying to prove right or wrong, but as as humans, and we have to offer them mediation, and, and we have to come to resolutions that preserve family relationships, if they can be preserved, and and and that is something that I have dedicated myself to Whenever possible, and I know I've done it right. When, when you know, my client says look, I I Disagree with my stepmom on this, or but I, I don't want to in this relationship, how do we fix this? And I'm her. One time I went through a mediation and we ended up with the result and it was mutually agreeable and the family got together afterwards and hugged. That's awesome and.

Bob Sewell: 19:56

There was still hurt and they're still pain and frustration, but that family could talk to each other again. If there was a wedding or a funeral or something, they'll be able to talk to each other again.

David Williams: 20:06

So one of the things I love about you, bob, is not only are you an advocate, but you've also recently kind of turn the corner to try to branch out your legal practice into offering these mediation, reconciliation type services. So, beyond just representing someone in these proceedings, because of your knowledge of Probate law and sort of the dynamics of what happens here, you've recently branched out and started doing mediation yourself, where you serve as the mediator. Explain to us first what is what is mediation and what is how. Is the role of a mediator different than, say, me Hiring a lawyer to just go and be Rambo lawyer for me in court?

Bob Sewell: 20:47

Okay. So the general process of mediation you're right, this is Mediation is. Serving as a mediator is what I want to dedicate my future practice to. I want to make sure that people know that there are Alternatives out there, people who care, who are knowledgeable in the field, that want to see Good mediation, and that's why I'm dedicating my practice To serve people and as a mediator.

Bob Sewell: 21:14

So what we do in a mediation is we first we step, we put the people in a room and we talk about the case, we talk about the pros, we talk about the minuses, and we and we they need to understand that I know the pros and I know the minuses of the arguments and they and the litigants there need to understand that. It's not a secret to each other, right that, that that their cases have pluses and minuses and every case does right and so when you get to that point, after you've had that discussion, you separate off in the different rooms and the role of the mediator is to help that person understand in that separate conference room that they will be better off by settling and controlling the outcome than not settling and letting a judge or you know some sort of trier effect control the outcome. And there's a lot of solace in that. And I found that you know, controlling the outcome and and I have when I have one cases my clients you think that they are the most ungrateful people in the world. Okay, and it's not.

Bob Sewell: 22:31

I'm not knocking them because I know what they're coming from. They're sort of like when you win a case, any of you win big they. They don't jump up and down for joy you think they would. Sometimes there's a tear shed. They're grateful, they're happy, they're happy it's over. That's their biggest emotion. They're, they've got relief that it's over. And but they, they that they are not necessarily joyful. You know what, when you mediate and you control the outcome and you have a solution, they're just as happy, if not more happy, than if I win in court. And that has blown my mind every single time.

David Williams: 23:13

So how do people? So what makes immediate? So it seems like anybody I've seen over the years former judges hanging out their shingles a mediator is there an advantage to having a mediator who's knowledgeable about probate and wills and these types of family disputes? Yeah, yeah.

Bob Sewell: 23:35

Not everyone understands probate. I have my clients a lot of times are lawyers. Lawyers come to me and say hey, bob, can you handle this for me? Will you help me with my dispute? Not because they are incompetent lawyers, but because they don't know probate. It is unique, it is a special field. It is wrought with unforeseen challenges. I mean, I'll tell you, I went when, when I first started learning probate, I went to a judge and I'm reciting the law Well, judge, this is what the law says, and so this is what you should do.

Bob Sewell: 24:18

And the judge looks at me and he and she says well, bob, she didn't say Bob, mr. So whenever I hear these set of facts, I don't follow this law. I do this which wasn't in the law. And I said in my head I'm like, wait a minute that the law. And it didn't dawn on me until that moment. Oh, probate is different. Now, this is, you know, 12, 13, 14 years ago. Probate is different. Probate is about equity. That comes from the courts of equity, you know, the courts of chancellery. Probate is about doing the right thing at the right moment. And so we could have this law and the law could say X, but at any given moment the judge could say, well, but the right thing to do here is Y, and it creates challenges for litigation, it creates challenges for litigants, it creates uncertainty. So yeah, I don't know if that answers the question.

David Williams: 25:28

Well. So let me ask you, let's bring it back to Aretha Franklin and try to bring some RESPCT to the situation. If you had been involved in this Aretha Franklin dispute and you saw and I'm the lawyer for One of the Sons and I see this 2014 will and my client is adamant that he wants to go to trial and I'm sitting down with him and I say, hey, let me contact my friend Bob. He's a mediator in town. Maybe he can help us bring some resolution. How does mediation allow you to maybe come up with some solutions that the Franklin Sons would not have been able to get by just taking this case to a trial and letting a jury or a judge say which was the better of the two worlds?

Bob Sewell: 26:20

You get to when, in a mediation, when everyone agrees and they come to a solution, you can do super creative things, the things that you don't get away with when the trial or fact makes a decision. So, for example, this case is going to blow your mind. I gotta tell you about this. Woman comes to the attorney. This is absolutely true. The woman comes to an attorney and says, hey, I want to restate my trust, but first I want to do certain things and I'm having a baby right now. I'm pregnant with my child, and so when my child's born, I want to restate my trust. Well, don't you want to do it now? No, no, I want to wait. Okay, so well, that's fine. So in the meantime, she writes down scrolls in a journal on multiple occasions, a letter to a loved one dear loved one, I'm about ready to have our child. As a boyfriend of sorts, I'm about ready to have our child and I want you to be able to take care of that.

Bob Sewell: 27:35

You know the pores are hard out and for this reason, to take care of my child, I've made you beneficiary of my $1.5 million insurance policy and, by the way, I think I'm going to giant childbirth. Okay, there was no reason to believe she was going to die in childbirth and she dies in childbirth. And now what do we have? And the personal, where I represented the person, represented the personal representative, and looks and says what the is this journal entry, this letter, this declaration, and what she wants to happen on her death of will? Is it a change of the beneficiary designation? Is it a trust? What is this? And so we go and we ask the court and we say, hey, judge, we think it's X, what do you think? And that set the stage.

Bob Sewell: 28:34

And then we go to mediation and we say to the dad who's now the caretaker of the child and being the father, and he would say what do you think?

Bob Sewell: 28:44

And dad says what he thinks and we come to a resolution and the resolution meant dad got some of those insurance policies to use the money now and, certain of it, sure, it's policy locked up and this child will have his or her needs taken care of for many, many years.

Bob Sewell: 29:06

And we locked it up in a trust, and so the child will get education and, yeah, the child's going to be a millionaire now by the time you know he or she turns 18. And but that kid won't be living a millionaire, millionaire lifestyle. He'll be working and having and having a good job, training and you know any supplemental needs that it may have. None of that would have happened by the court making a decision and similarly none you. When, when they walked away from a mediation table, the family and the wreath of Franklin case they missed an opportunity for creativity. They missed an opportunity to preserve assets in unique ways and possibly, just possibly, create more wealth for themselves or maybe set up their family members in a different way or do something more equitable. Yeah, a lot of missed opportunities when you fail to mediate.

David Williams: 30:04

That's amazing, and it so it seems like. The moral of the story here is hopefully you take the time to get this done on the front end, get in a state plan, but sometimes, if you, if you end up in a fight between your family members, it sounds like having to go to court and have a court tell you what the outcome is. May not always be your best outcome, and they can use something like a mediation or a neutral to help them come up with these creative solutions. Bob, if someone wants to find you and engage you as a mediator or as an advocate as their own attorney, how do they find you Best way?

Bob Sewell: 30:37

is call the main line at my law firm, Davis Miles, McGuire, Gardner, 4807336800. Ask for me, ask for my legal assistant. Set up an appointment and let's start talk about it.

David Williams: 30:51

Awesome. Hey Bob, thank you so much for letting me engage in this role reversal with you. I appreciate the opportunity to hear your knowledge on this important topic and we'll look forward to hearing from you next time. Thank you, this is super fun Thanks.

Bob Sewell: 31:04

Thanks for listening to. Is that Even Legal? Remember this isn't legal advice. If you have a legal question for yourself, reach out to an attorney. Remember that we're fun, we're lovable and we are here to help you, to my listeners in 62 countries across the world. If you have something you want to explore, email us at produceratevenlegalcom and don't be shy about leaving a review for this podcast on your favorite podcast forum. See you next time.