Is That Even Legal?
Is That Even Legal?
Can We Please Curtail The Corruption?
It does not matter what your political position may be or how you vote. No matter your views, you probably feel that there is WAY TOO MUCH CORRUPTION - those who use taxpayer dollars to enrich themselves.
Is That EVEN LEGAL? Of course not. The question is, what can be done about it. Can the law curtail corruption?
In this episode, join Bob as we reach into the Mississippi Attorney General's race, where one candidate has made fighting public corruption a hallmark of her campaign. We don't endorse candidates, and we certainly offer equal time to Greta Martin's opponent, but Mississippi's high profile case involving the use (or misuse) of $90 million earmarked for needy families - YOUR TAX DOLLARS, was a good exhibit A of what corruption looks like.
Brace yourselves as we delve into a shocking tale of corruption that has rocked the state of Mississippi! It's a microcosm of corruption country-wide.
Imagine a system where the rule of law is upheld and those in power are held accountable? Is it a fantasy...or can Attorney Generals actually make it happen?
Give a listen as we venture into the thorny terrain of prosecution and jurisdiction in Mississippi, probing how concurrent jurisdiction could be employed to prosecute those implicated in this sordid saga. We ponder the potential of unearthing more crimes beyond the $77 million fraud and question why the state's political system has been allowed to operate seemingly unchecked for so long.
Related reading: https://apnews.com/article/mississippi-welfare-scandal-brett-favre-dd447fa50d4e67b963f59de42fe5dc3f
https://apnews.com/article/sports-legal-proceedings-scandals-brett-favre-mississippi-d0ae88cc6727fd74b4686fb09d9e7dcc
It's a phrase from popular movies. It's also a question that comes up in our daily life. The question is is that even legal? We talk about the things that drive you crazy, the things you won't believe and the things you need to know and understand. I'm attorney Bob Sewell and this is the podcast. Is that Even Legal? Let's get started. Today on the show is Greta Martin. Greta Martin is a Mississippi Attorney General candidate and she has pledged to fight public corruption. Greta, welcome to the show.
Greta :Yeah, thanks for having me.
Bob:You know I wanted to have you on the show because Mississippi has, in recent years, one of the most fantastic public corruption cases I've ever heard of. It's really just quite bizarre and what? This is the story as I understand it and I'm saying this for the listeners, not for your benefit but what happened, as I understand it, is Phil Bryant, a governor at the time. He ends up securing 90 million or so of money from the federal government my money, money from people like me designed to help the poor, and it was in a particular program he secured for the temporary assistance for needy families and for my listeners. These types of funds are used to help families stick together, stay together, get back on their feet. It's for cash assistance, it's for job training, education, things like this To help people get back on their feet or get on their feeds, and by people, specifically people with children. And so here this money is earmarked and 77 million or so, as the reports I've read, goes, goes missing, and maybe not missing so much as in it's misspent, and I found it fantastic. And one of the reasons why I found it fantastic is where the money went, and among other places, it went to Brett Favre and he ends up somehow securing some of these funds for some speaking fees on some speeches. That didn't happen. He ends up giving some or all or a portion of it back. And it also went to a volleyball stadium and Brett Favre just happened to have a daughter who was playing volleyball at Ole Miss, and so apparently someone thought that this money should be spent on improving it or building a volleyball stadium, and obviously that's not helping the people who's intended for. That's not what the federal government earmarked it for. That's not where my money was supposed to be.
Bob:And it ends up in some convictions. We have at least one conviction that I know of. There was a former human services director, john Davis. He was sentenced for 32 years. From what I understand, there was a few other convictions and al most he said that this money didn't really cover him. Then we the attorney general. Apparently he had a. She had a connection to Brett Farve as well, and so she had to hire outside law firm to prosecute some of this stuff. There's a civil suit pending trying to collect some of the money back. Is this what you're talking about when you say you want to fight public corruption?
Greta :Absolutely. That's certainly the the biggest story right now and and one that we have the heaviest evidence to show occurred.
Bob:Did we get enough convictions in this case?
Greta :I don't believe so. I think there are still convictions left to be had, and and if and if I'm honest, just knowing what I know about Mississippi politics and and knowing the people that are still in leadership positions, I I believe that there's likely more to uncover with the appropriate investigations if you have the right people in office.
Bob:You know, what bothers me about this is, you know, one is my money. Right, this is my money being spent in Mississippi on princes of the country like Brett Farve and others, and that's right. And it's supposed to be for the poor something I care about and during this period, the poor aren't getting what they need. They're being denied the funds. What, what do you make of that?
Greta :So Mississippi is among one of the poorest states in the United States. It is. We are historically at the top of every bad list and at the bottom of every good list. And these are funds that are supposed to go, as you said, back into our communities to help families, and and and I want people to truly understand what we mean by that we mean this is money to provide families job training. This is money to provide adequate childcare so that parents can go and work and ensure that their children are taken care of. This is to help with transportation. I mean, these are things to ensure that our families can participate in our communities and our economic goals. So this, these are not handouts. You know, that's something that angers me. When people hear about these benefits and these monies, that immediately a great majority of folks want to say well, those are handouts, these are not. This is money to help stabilize our communities and it has gone to, as you noted, a volleyball stadium for Brett Farve's daughter. It has gone to pay for personal trainers for our sitting governor, tate Reeves. I mean, the level of misspending of these funds is astronomical.
Greta :And and I have heard many, many times our state auditor who, while I respect the work that their office has done to uncover this. He has gone around and indicated that he's uncovered at all, that it's. It's all out in the open and I just don't believe that to be true. I think, number one, you still got convictions and investigations on the table. As you might have mentioned, I can't. Governor Phil Bryant has not in any way been convicted. Brett Farve has not in any way been convicted. Neither of them have made any paybacks to the state of Mississippi or to the federal government. So right there, that's two convictions on the table. Right, right there. And again, I think there's more investigating to be done.
Bob:Okay, so now I want to get, now that we've uncovered the story, as an attorney general, how do you go about a public corruption, a public corruption investigation? What do you do? What does that look like?
Greta :So oftentimes the attorney general's office works in tandem with the state auditor's office. We've seen it happen before in this in the last couple of years and I think that happened before in this state and others. Ideally, the AG's office would have worked alongside the auditor's office in this investigation to begin with, but separate and apart from that, the AG's office has the authority to conduct its own separate investigation that could be looking at examining financial records, conducting interviews and depositions and collaborating with law enforcement agencies to ensure that we have gotten to the root of the issue. Now this in this particular situation.
Greta :As an attorney, I have never seen such an easy case being laid at the feet of our attorney general. I mean, in your research, it's likely you've seen the text messages, you've seen the emails when I tell you that our attorney general has a plethora of evidence right here at her feet that she could absolutely go ahead and pursue a prosecution of multiple people. As an attorney yourself, we never get evidence just handed to us like this, and I believe that the next step is that our AG's office should not be relying upon local district attorneys. She should not be relying upon the federal government. It is her job to uphold public integrity and to prosecute the people that we know are involved and, like you said, if you have been, but there are more prosecutions to be done.
Bob:So let's talk about concurrent jurisdiction for a second a little bit, and what you mentioned, that is this just is this a case like this, something just the attorney general can do for Mississippi, or can it be outsourced to the Department of Justice?
Greta :It can be outsourced and luckily in our case it can be, because otherwise we would still be sitting on our thumbs with this information. But what we have seen in this situation is the state auditor's office did involve the Hines County District Attorney's Office for a period of time to help with potential prosecutions. It's my understanding that a great majority of this has been referred to our United States Attorney's Office, so the Department of Justice. The problem with that is in the same breath that our Republican majority here talks about the overreach of the federal government, here they are kicking the can to the United States Attorney's Office to handle something that could be handled in this state. So I just believe that it is a failure of our AG's office to not take this upon herself and uphold public integrity in our state.
Bob:So it'd be different laws though, right? I mean I want to get to that, but it'd be different laws, Right? If I'm prosecuting this from the federal standpoint, I'm going to address a certain number of laws, a certain laws. If I'm going to be prosecuting it from the state standpoint, I'm going to be prosecuting it under a different set of laws, right? I mean they could have crimes both federally and state right.
Greta :Absolutely. I mean, if our AG is plain and simple, if our Attorney General does not prosecute and leaves it to the federal government to do so, we are leaving punishment on the table, we are leaving prosecutions on the table, because she absolutely could pursue prosecutions separate and apart from that of the federal government.
Bob:Let me ask you a theoretical question, and you know you don't typically start out with a $77 million fraud, right? I mean, if I'm a criminal who misappropriates funds, I don't typically start out with a full, hardy $77 million funds of federal dollars and mispend it. I probably start out with smaller crimes, smaller frauds, and I move on. Are you concerned that this isn't the only crime?
Greta :Absolutely.
Bob:How do you find that out? If you're investigating, how do you find that out?
Greta :Well, you know a lot of it. I think is going to depend on what happens between now and when I would take office. You know, like I've said, my answer may be a little different if the US Attorney's office brings down any indictments or has shown any significant involvement. But honestly, at the end of the day, you find it out by doing your job. I know we're here to talk about the law, but essentially Mississippi just has a toxic political system, plain and simple.
Greta :For far too long we've had state leaders that have viewed their positions as that of entitlement and power instead of service and representation, and if you let something that toxic sit for too long, it just begins to rot, and that's what we have. We just have a network of rotten leadership that are beholden to people besides the people that have elected them, so they've been allowed to get away with this for so long that they believe that they can get away with it. I mean, that's just that's. At the end of the day, it's a level of entitlement that most people can't understand. But if you've been given this level of power for as long as the people we're talking about have been in office, of course it's just going to build an arrogance that you can get away with things like you know, giving Brett far millions of dollars, yeah that gets me, okay.
Bob:so let me, let me pivot a little bit. I mean, as you, as you, as an attorney general, your job is to investigate primarily crimes and prosecute primarily crimes. Am I right?
Greta :Yes, so that's a large part of it. There's quite a bit more, I think. I think there's some responsibility to give a level of oversight to state agencies again, which goes back to why I think a lot of this corruption has gone unchecked. I think there's a duty of the AG's office to provide transparency to the people of Mississippi about what's going on in their state agencies and among their state leadership. I think that there's a responsibility of the Attorney General's office to offer resources and support to law enforcement across the state. Yeah, I mean, but generally, yes, it's finding crimes and prosecuting crimes that affect Mississippians.
Bob:Yes, and how do you? I mean, one of the problems in Attorney General's offices all over the country is getting and recruiting qualified people. How are you going to do that?
Greta :So I think it is.
Greta :It's going to be a challenge, right, because Mississippi has long since been seen as a state that's kind of I'm not going to say a throwaway state. But we are oftentimes just disregarded because we, like I said, are at the bottom of all the good lists and the top of all the bad lists. But Mississippi is worth fighting for and I think when you put the right people in positions like the Attorney General's office and you show them that state leadership is not about one person, it is about the whole state, I think that really motivates folks who want to get involved. Right now we have an attorney general who is a former bond lawyer turned career politician who probably is going to sit back and write me off as a woke radical liberal who just wants to kick her out of office. But I'm a Mississippian and I believe that we should have a lawyer who is a lawyer of the people. And when you put somebody in that role who wants to see this state do better, I think it will inspire people to get involved and want to join the team.
Bob:So I want to talk to you about another function that has been odd to me about not only Mississippi, but other attorney generals that is meddling in other states, right so, after the 2020 election, mississippi joined other states to file a lawsuit in Pennsylvania about Pennsylvania's election. Now I don't really want Mississippi in my state. I really don't need you pursuing cases in my state. Do you agree with that?
Greta :Absolutely, absolutely. I think, especially Mississippi. We have enough going on here that we should be focusing on what benefits our citizens and what's happening within our state boundaries. I don't think that we have any business being involved in other states elections or other states policies. So, unless explicitly requested, I do think that there's a time that state attorneys general explicitly request the assistance of other attorneys general, but I think those are rare occasions or should be.
Bob:Okay, so where does that jurisdiction then end to begin for Mississippi attorney generals? And I know that's a bit of a foolhardy question, but generally speaking I'm not holding you to this, but generally speaking, when does jurisdiction begin and end for a Mississippi attorney general? Is it the state line or is it something else?
Greta :You know, I would argue that most of the time it's the state line Again, unless it's explicitly requested by another state. You know you mentioned elections. Each state is responsible for the administration of its own elections and while I do believe that there's room for collaboration among states, especially regionally, interfering with another state's election processes or results, it's contrary to the principles of democracy. I mean, we are supposed to be sovereign, we're supposed to administer our own elections. You know my opponent, lynn Fitz. She claims to be this champion of states' rights, but she has no problem bouncing all over the country telling people how to run their elections and how to administer their policies. So no, I think again, I'm all about collaboration and I do believe there are some issues that states regionally may want to collaborate on, but it's just not our business. We have too much in our own state that we need to be focused on, and I would imagine that's the same for every state in the United States.
Bob:So I want to ask you a question, a bit of a my, my, I have a. I have a little bit of fascination with the law of antitrust, and you probably aren't expecting this when I told you that I was going to interview you and the subjects, but I have a fascination with antitrust and what I'm seeing in the country is fewer and fewer businesses. And antitrust is important because we have. We have. It's not just a price issue. Antitrust is about competition, and competition leads from a theoretical standpoint, competition leads to innovation, and innovation leads to generally better lives, and competition also has a tendency to make more people wealthy versus a few elite. And so what's interesting is we have a country and we are seeing greater and greater consolidation in in the, in really important areas, and including things like telephone services in healthcare delivery, grocery store chains. These types of things concern me. Are you concerned?
Greta :Absolutely.
Bob:Tell me how you address this as from an attorney general position.
Greta :So you know, with Mississippi we are always trying to look toward the future. We're always trying to find ways to bring business into our state because obviously it's going to improve the economy, it's going to increase jobs. As I walk along the campaign trail, jobs are one thing that I get asked about all the time, and I think the way I look at this from an attorney general standpoint is that I use this role to improve the state as much as possible and make it business friendly. But I think there's also a level, as the AG, that you have to provide resources and support for your workers of Mississippi, which is is not happening in our AG's office right now. We have a state that doesn't promote or support a Department of Labor. We have an AG's office who doesn't have any direct support or resources for Mississippi workers. So I think it's just working together with other state leaders to ensure that we have an environment here in the state that promotes business but also provides a support to Mississippi working class.
Bob:I'm going to push back on you on that a little bit, and I think it's more than that.
Bob:And the reason why I think it's more than that, I think it's the attorney general has to have good sidekicks, if you will, good people under them that can flex muscle.
Bob:And so when you have consolidation in industry, when you have industries that aren't playing by the rules and we have rules and if we don't like the rules, we tell our politicians change the rules and or we're going to vote you out of office. But we have these rules and we have to have the attorney general has to have great sidekicks, people who are working for them, because you can't do it all that. When I am a healthcare organization and I'm doing something anti competitive, then I end up getting a side eye from this powerful AG assistant attorney general, and that side eye brings down the brings, brings, brings the activity to a stop, and there was and, and, and. Then and on top of that, we have to have people who are actually listening to the people, actually looking and trying to be more than just reactionary, being proactive. What do you think about that? Do you think I got this wrong?
Greta :No, I don't. I do believe that it takes a powerful team in any state agency, but especially the Attorney General's office. I think my fear is that we're so far away from that here in Mississippi Right now. Our focus is making sure that we get people in the roles that will allow good health care to come into our state, and we're one of nine states that have failed to expand Medicaid. Health care is crumbling at our feet. We have a state whose state leadership makes things toxic for businesses to come in because they're worried about being able to staff their facilities. I mean, my concern now is that we are working in a state full of a Republican supermajority legislature, with Republicans down the ticket in our state leadership who have no concern about moving Mississippi forward. So, first and foremost, we've got to get people into office that can build those strong teams like you're mentioning, because right now that's not what we have.
Bob:Greta, thanks for coming on the show. I really enjoyed your conversation and I hope at some point you'll come on again later when you're Attorney General. I mean, don't forget, we're the best show on the interweb, so we're going to get you to come on again later. Well, I would be happy to.
Greta :Yes, yes, I would be happy to. I really appreciate it. I would love if anybody in your audience would like to hear more about our platform and what we have going on. In Mississippi it's Greta4Ageecom, and they can find out more about us. Donate if they're able. Join along on this journey as we push forward to November 7.
Bob:Thank you very much. Talk to you soon. Thanks for listening to. Is that Even Legal? Remember this isn't legal advice. If you have a legal question for yourself, reach out to an attorney. Remember that we're fun, we're lovable and we are here to help you, to my listeners in 62 countries across the world. If you have something you want to explore, email us at produceratevenlegalcom and don't be shy about leaving a review for this podcast on your favorite podcast forum. See you next time.