Is That Even Legal?
Is That Even Legal?
Pet Waste Pandemic - Suing over poo. Unleashing law enforcement.
Ready to dive deep into the nitty-gritty, the good, the bad, and the downright stinky?
Join your favorite host Bob Sewell and civil litigation maestro, Marshall Hunt, as we take you on a wild journey through the unexpected and surprisingly compelling world of...you guessed it...dog poop!
In this episode, we're not just talking sh*t, we're discussing the real legal ramifications tied to those little brown 'presents' left behind by your favorite furry friends.
Can you sue your neighbor when his pet soils your lawn repeatedly? Can you be arrested for your pet's waste?
Together, we'll scoop up the facts about how Arizona is taking a firm stance against poo-littering pet parents. Don't know your obligations when your pooch poops? We've got you covered, as we 'doggie bag' all the need-to-know details, including the hefty fines that might be hiding in those not-so-secret deposits.
But it's not all bad news and 'dirty' talk; we're also digging into the exemptions for those with disabilities. We'll explore the responsibilities and rights of service animal owners in our canine-caring community.
Don't let the subject matter fool you - this isn't just a stinky situation, it's a fascinating exploration into the intersection of pets, law, and civic duties. So, leash up your curiosity, fetch your headphones, and let's get ready to roll in some seriously intriguing insights!
Grab your poop bags, folks! It's time to take a walk on the wild (and wonderfully woofy) side of pet law in Arizona. Hold your noses - it's going to be an informative, engaging, and surprisingly fun ride! So, sit back, relax, and get ready to get the 'scoop' on the legalities of dog poop. Trust us, this is one conversation you won't want to 'leave behind'!
This idea was provided by a subscriber! Thank you, N.J.!
*** Listeners please note…the show makes reference to a Supreme Court case involving a dog toy…that is labeled as dog poo…which prompted a trademark infringement lawsuit from Jack Daniel’s. (Give this show a listen…you’ll understand!!!) Our point was that this subject can get so weighty the nations highest court is not above dealing with it. We didn’t tackle the trademark law nuance, but if you’re interested…our friends at the Wilson Sonsini law firm have the goods here. The case was decided a couple of days after our recording. A bad verdict for the doo doo folks: https://info.wsgr.com/index.php/email/emailWebview?md_id=15013
It's a phrase from popular movies. It's also a question that comes up in our daily life. The question is is that even legal? We talk about the things that drive you crazy, the things you won't believe and the things you need to know and understand. I'm attorney Bob Sewell and this is the podcast. Is That Even Legal? Let's get started. Today's guest on the show is Marshall Hunt. Marshall Hunt is an expert in civil litigation and commercial litigation and a good friend of mine. Marshall, thanks for coming on the show. I had you on here today because you and
Bob Sewell:I. We get together and when we get together, we talk a lot of well sh*t. You know what we're talking about. We just talk a lot. I'm pissed about something sh*t. Yeah, i am. Actually I am, and I'm pissed about something. What I'm upset about is all these Karens out there in the world trying to tell me what to do.
Bob Sewell:It's upsetting to me. I have a dog and my dog likes to do what dogs do and wants a crap wherever it wants a crap, and I'm perfectly okay with that. I mean, it's a dog, this is America, this is America. Right, i'm gonna land it the free, and if my dog wants a crap on my neighbor's lawn or out in the park, let it do it. But there's all these people trying to tell me no, is that even legal?
Marshall Hunt:Short answer. You're in the wrong here, bob.
Bob Sewell:No way.
Marshall Hunt:You'd be surprised, i guess, how much dog I'm gonna go ahead and say poop, waste, feces. The cases and the statutes that are out there in Arizona use those three terms. I'd say They don't go for the S word there. But most of actually Arizona cities, counties have some sort of dog waste regulation that usually requires you to pick it up immediately, dispose of it, leaving it out to your free-range dog generally not legal.
Bob Sewell:But why do they even care? I mean serious. Why do they care? Because here in Arizona the sun is blazing hot and the dog craps out there and it dries out in like 10 seconds, because everything in the sun is drying out like this in Arizona And then someone will come by and mow it up, and who cares?
Marshall Hunt:right, i hear what you're saying but I'm not a scientist. But from what I understand, dog poop can actually be a transmitter of quite a few diseases. I've got a list here. Let's see if I can pronounce some Cryptosporidium don't know what that one is. Hookworms that sounds terrible. Tapeworms I've heard of those Giardia, coli, Salmonella the parade of horribles goes on.
Marshall Hunt:But yeah no different, frankly, than if we as humans were going around relieving ourselves in every which way. I don't think we like that. Dogs same idea, unsanitary carriers of diseases, and I would say in Arizona, with the heat, probably worse than other places because it attracts insects, it can be a general nuisance, smell, unsightly, or at least in the democratic process that's what we've decided.
Bob Sewell:So what are these? I mean, we know it's a big deal. No, not at all serious, it is a big deal. There's 77 million dogs in America, or estimated right, and in Arizona there's 43% of households that have a dog, so that's a lot. I mean, what do we get? 7.5 million, 8 million somewhere there in Arizona, a large proportion of those with two dogs or three dogs.
Marshall Hunt:So I mean we're talking about millions of dogs, probably just in Arizona.
Bob Sewell:So it could. if everyone did what I was suggesting, we'd have a real problem. So what are the cities actually making us do? Yeah, no-transcript.
Marshall Hunt:I looked up several different city ordinances. Most of the major cities in Arizona have them. They're actually relatively new. As I was reading up, you can find news articles from a simple Google search of some of the city's passing laws in, say, the late 90s, early 2000s. But here's an example.
Marshall Hunt:Let's say Tucson, are southern neighbors down there in Arizona. Their city code, section 4-102, says it shall be unlawful for the owner or person having custody of any dog to fail immediately to move and dispose of, in a sanitary matter, any solid waste deposited by such dog on public property or deposited on private property without the consent of the person in control of the property. Now that part always made me laugh because I don't know who is consenting to other people having their dogs poop on their property. I don't know why they had that caveat in there. But this section but here's an interesting also exception, maybe this is your loophole that you can go for if you want to get around it The section shall not apply to blind persons, persons with mobility disabilities or police officers or other law enforcement officers accompanying by police dogs while on emergency. So I don't think any of those apply to you but, i, thought it was sort of interesting that they wanted to bake in.
Marshall Hunt:So it makes some sense. Obviously a blind person is going to be much more difficult for them. People with disabilities may be difficult to reach down and get the waste. and then police officers they want to not interfere with their official duties, so misdemeanor, in most cases civil fines, $150 in Tucson.
Bob Sewell:So I pick it up, i put it in a bag, that's it. That's all I got to do.
Marshall Hunt:Throw it away in your normal trash can. Actually, again, as I was reading up, i thought it was sort of funny that Maricopa County, where we live, has some official notices that they've put out that made sure everyone knows that Dog Poop can be flushed down the toilet if you want to. There's no reason not to do that according to the folks over at Maricopa County. But yeah, put it in your normal trash goes to the normal landfill but is disposed of in that way, rather than leaving it out in an unsightly way, i'm on a trail, right.
Bob Sewell:I'm out hiking around on a you know. let's say I'm in a city, one of these giant city parks we have out here in the southwest, and I'm on one of these trails. I mean the dog's in the natural environment, right?
Marshall Hunt:Yeah, you still got to pick it up. Maricopa County, for instance, requires similar dog disposal rules in all of their city parks. It makes me think of there's an old Jerry Seinfeld bit where he says something like if aliens came here, you know people from another planet, who would they decide are the sort of leaders on planet earth? You know? you see two life forms. One's going around making poop and one's picking it up and carrying it around. Who's in charge here? Obviously the dogs. They're leading us around by these leashes. So, yeah, even on a trail where you might have to carry it for a couple of miles, that's them's the breaks. You got to do it if you want to bring the dog. So you know the funny thing is about.
Bob Sewell:The subject is how are they going to know, i mean, if I take my dog out on one of these? you know, go to the park or go out on the trail or something like that, and no one's looking how?
Marshall Hunt:are they going to?
Bob Sewell:know it's me.
Marshall Hunt:You know I can't speak for the trail, but I was surprised to find that I was doing my very rigorous preparation for this topic. There are some services out there that will actually take DNA samples from dog poop, get some unique markers from that so they can associate a specific dog to a specific owner. It's mostly used by, say, apartment complexes where there's lots of people, lots of dogs in a small space, and they will actually, you know, find the poop, send it for sampling. You know I, the article I read from eight years ago, said it was $60 a test.
Marshall Hunt:You know, actually the fountain head, an apartment complex in Tempe where we work, apparently, you know, made the news briefly in the mid 2010s for for for doing this. but they'll pick up the poop, send it out for a sample, confirm that it's your dog and, you know, find you, you know, in the apartment complex, potentially even take, kick you out if you're just a serial offender here. So there I laughed at the. the main player that I saw, i guess, was poo Prince. It's the main player in this arena.
Bob Sewell:It is, it is. it is annoying when you have a neighbor, and I had this neighbor and he would just let his dog do his thing, and it was even in his backyard and it just would. you know, in today's day and age we don't have a back 40. We have a tiny little. yeah, a lot lot, and I wish I had a yacht, but I had a. you know, you have a tiny lot, and so the, the smells would waft over. Can I do something about that?
Marshall Hunt:Yeah, it was actually. uh, in addition to some of those city ordinances that require you to pick up your dog poop, I know at least Tempe that I read for instance, also has ordinances against allowing what they deemed excessive animal waste to build up in your yard Uh, such that it's not securely protected from insects and the elements. That was their concern. So if you want to be the uh aforementioned Karen and report your neighbor to code compliance and Tempe, they they might do something about it. I think they've got long priority lists from that. but you know, even even short of trying to rely on overworked code compliance officers at your local municipality, there are instances occasionally of uh lawsuits civil lawsuits even being filed for for dog poop issues.
Bob Sewell:You know, i I've I've heard of these lawsuits and I have known uh, you know attorneys who have engaged in these lawsuits for nuisance issues, and people get passionate about them.
Marshall Hunt:Yeah, it's, uh, you know, i again really rigorous research when I was trying to pull some of these cases. But you know things I read, for instance, uh, you go really Big level. For instance, there was a class action lawsuit in California just recently, in 2021, against the owner and manager of an apartment complex that failed to clean up dog poop. The case that I read on that subject was not really about the merits of that claim and whether it could move forward. It was more about procedural issues related to class actions. But it was allowed to go forward, at least from the stage that the decision was rendered from. So you definitely, if you're a property owner, apartment complex owner, watch out for that one.
Bob Sewell:And people get annoyed at their neighbors and they're willing to fight over this. And they fight, fight, fight because a neighbor's dog comes over and craps on their lawn every day, or whatever the case may be, and it really gets people perturbed.
Marshall Hunt:The best case I read about that was a 2014 Toronto case Moreland Jones vs Taric And everything about the decision was funny to read and I think the law clerks and the judge probably had fun writing it. But we had an oil executive on one side, a psychiatrist on the other side. They really don't like each other. The psychiatrist was letting his dog urinate in the oil executives yard. That psychiatrist in turn was taking pictures of the oil executives dog pooping in the nearby park. They're filming each other, they sue each other, they litigate it, go to the mattresses on this one. They're really fighting the tooth and nail. And in the end, after all this work, the judge's conclusion I had to write it down because it made me laugh as a lawyer quote there is no serious issue to be tried in this action And dismissed. The case denied fees to both sides. I think that's probably how the judge decided. He could sort of punish both sides. A pox on both of you. But yeah, the judge wasn't happy about litigating that issue, but some people take it very seriously.
Bob Sewell:But when it is a serious health and safety issue and it can become that you could bring nuisance losses You could to enjoy people from repeat offending And it can affect people's health, affect people's well-being. It can become problematic with the smells and the sanitation, But, yeah, we can bring civil actions to enjoying people from this type of stuff. What about service animals?
Marshall Hunt:Yeah, service animals are. You would think that there would be some type of they would be exempt or they wouldn't really apply. But I don't have a lot of personal experience in this area but from reading the laws on it they do actually anticipate that service animals like any other dogs probably more so than most dogs, since they have sort of a special legal status in Arizona and around the country that they also are expected to be housebroken or not be relieving themselves in public places. And actually Arizona at least lists a few reasons why a public establishment could refuse a service animal in their establishment, one of which was if the animal is not housebroken. I don't know how you know that in the first instances, but the second, that the dog lays the waste in your local corner shop, i guess you could trespass the dog and his owner and keep them out forever. Also, you got to watch out for the service animals. I didn't realize again as I was reading this, that service animals in Arizona can be either dogs or miniature horses.
Bob Sewell:Miniature horses really.
Marshall Hunt:It's written into the law, service animals can be dogs or miniature horses. I would really hope that your horse was housebroken, because you don't want that horse coming in and not being housebroken in your grocery store.
Bob Sewell:Dude, I'm going to get myself a service horse. That would be rad. How far can we take this? How far? What is the furthest anyone's taken? one of these sh*t stories?
Marshall Hunt:Well, it's slightly different but relevant, i guess, to the dog poop discussion. There's a case in front of the US Supreme Court right now that's dog poop related. It's more of a trademark case. It's already been argued. It hasn't been decided yet. Jack Daniels obviously America's biggest whiskey manufacturer and seller filed a trademark lawsuit against actually a local Arizona company who makes sort of Oh look, you do not mess around with Arizona companies.
Marshall Hunt:So they make sort of novelty toys I think specifically novelty dog toys but they made one that is made to sort of look like the classic iconic Jack Daniels whiskey bottle, but instead of Jack Daniels they wrote on the bottle Bad Spaniels. Instead of 40% proof, they wrote that it's 43% poo and 100% smelly. Instead of being made from old number seven Tennessee sour mash whiskey, they said it's old number two on your Tennessee carpet. These are the really highbrow jokes that they're making on this story. I don't think the justices were particularly amused by it. From what I've read, i can't believe they.
Bob Sewell:Honestly, I can't believe they took up the subject.
Marshall Hunt:Well, yeah, so it's interesting again, not a trademark expert from what I read. So the Jack Daniels won at the trial level probably would have died there, except the toy company appealed to the Ninth Circuit and Ninth Circuit overruled by applying this sort of unique test for a trademark infringement. That's usually applied in a more creative space, like movies, art, things like that that are truly viewed as having some type of artistic merit. So most of the discussion at the Supreme Court level is what tests should we apply to this type of dispute and did the Ninth Circuit get it wrong in applying this unique exception to the normal trademark analysis? There you go. I did laugh that. I think the attorney for Jack Daniels will probably always have the war story that she led a oral argument at the Supreme Court by saying this case involves a dog toy that copies Jack Daniels' trademark and trade dress and associates its whiskey with dog poop. That was her opening statement.
Bob Sewell:Okay, marshall, let's just sum this up, because we've had a lot of fun, we've made a lot of jokes, but it is, in the end of the day, a serious subject. If I have a dog, i got to pick up the stuff, i got to pick up the poop And if I don't, what happens?
Marshall Hunt:Yeah, we mentioned some of those city codes. I imagine most places around the country are similar generally viewed as civil infraction subject to fines. Tucson, we mentioned before $150 fine. Phoenix can be as low as 100, but as high as 2,500. So I imagine, if you're again a serial offender right And in extreme cases can be prosecuted as a misdemeanor. So I doubt. I'm not aware that it's ever happened, but you got to watch out and mostly you want to be a good neighbor.
Bob Sewell:Right, and if you're not a good neighbor, you could potentially expect nuisance lawsuits and injunctions against you And, theoretically, in some cases, your apartment complex might throw you out. Yeah, yeah. So, marshall, thanks for coming on the show. All right, no problem. Thanks, bob. Thanks for listening too. Is that even legal? Remember this isn't legal advice. If you have a legal question for yourself, reach out to an attorney. Remember that we're fun, we're lovable and we are here to help you. To my listeners in 62 countries across the world. If you have something you want to explore, email us at produceratevenlegalcom And don't be shy about leaving a review for this podcast on your favorite podcast forum. See you next time.