Is That Even Legal?
Is That Even Legal?
Could You Lose Your House to a Squatter? It Happens More Than You Know!
Uncover the legal maze of adverse possession and residency issues with a spotlight on protecting your property. Bob delves into the distinctions between simply trespassing and taking up residence, stressing the urgency of quick action in tenant-friendly states. We also discuss the peculiar challenges snowbirds face upon returning to their Arizona homes, potentially occupied by squatters. Gain essential insights into preventive measures to safeguard your property during lengthy absences, offering valuable knowledge for both property owners and legal aficionados alike.
Curious about the fine line between squatting and trespassing? Discover the intricacies of squatting laws, featuring attorney Bob Sewell, as we humorously tackle Sarah Clifford's playful attempt to "claim" the sixth floor of our office. We dissect how squatting regulations vary across regions, including an intriguing look at a high-profile case involving Gordon Ramsay's London restaurant. Bob highlights the legal obstacles landlords encounter in Arizona, emphasizing the importance of navigating the court system and bypassing self-help measures to resolve these disputes effectively.
Is that even legal? It's a question we ask ourselves on a daily basis. We ask it about our neighbors, we ask it about our elected officials, we ask it about our family and sometimes we ask it to ourselves. The law is complex and it impacts everyone all the time, and that's why we are here. I'm attorney Bob Sewell, and this is season five of the worldwide podcast that explores that one burning question. Is that even legal? Let's go.
Sarah Clifford:Hi, welcome to this episode of. Is that Even Legal? I'm Sarah Clifford, I'm an attorney at Davis Miles and this is the annual episode where I get to try and take over Bob's podcast. So far, I think this is my fourth go at it. I have been unsuccessful. I have sent Paul fruit baskets, I have done my very best, and yet Bob continues to host, and so I have set my sights on something bigger and better, and that is the vacant floor in our office building, the sixth floor. So my plan is I'm going to go put up my tent on the sixth floor and I am going to camp out and stay there, and it is going to be mine, because I really want to take something over. Bob. Is that even legal?
Bob Sewell:No, no, it's not legal. You cannot squat on the sixth floor and take over the sixth floor. But I understand would want to. It's a great view.
Sarah Clifford:It is a great view. We get the mountains and the freeway and you get a lot of really nice ambient noise. But, bob, I read a bunch of articles on this subject about squatters rights, and in these articles it talks about how landlords are having, um, an issue with squatters coming in. And in fact there is a very famous chef whose restaurant uh, gordon r Ramsay had a restaurant and people are trying to squat in it and take it. So if they can squat and take Gordon Ramsay's restaurant, that is worth you know, $16 million, why can't I squat on the sixth floor and take the sixth floor? I just want to take something.
Bob Sewell:Yeah, first of all, I mean, what's unique to the Gordon Ramsey issue is it's in London. If this was in Arizona it would be a whole lot easier to get you out. But yeah, it's a problem with our laws in states that are more favorable to tenants, where squatting can be a very effective way for a period of time, to gain control over a residence or a property. And once you're there, it's tough to get you out because I don't get to use self-help. In other words, I can't come in with my gun and point it at you and say get the heck out of my sixth floor. And similarly, dave Ramsey doesn't get to use self-help and point a gun at himself. You know, point a gun at them and say get out of my, get out of my unit. It becomes more complicated than that because we have to now employ attorneys.
Sarah Clifford:Yeah, but, bob, attorneys in the court system, it takes a really long time to get through the court system and you know, if I wanted to squat on a property, if I, if I so. So you're telling me, and what these people are doing in London is they put a notice on the door and they said, hey, we're occupying this property, this is our property, we're open and we're notorious, we're hostile. There is somebody here at all times occupying this property. Arizona doesn't have anything similar.
Bob Sewell:So so let's talk about that for a little bit. I mean, first of all, we got to dissect what's going on. So Sarah Clifford walks up to the sixth floor and puts up a tent and says I now live here. Well, generally speaking, when I've trespassed on your property, I could call the police and say Sarah Clifford is trespassing, get out, have her get out. Now the question becomes when I've now taken residence. Now the question becomes when I've now taken residence. And when I've taken a residence it gets more complicated because or is this person a tenant, or I've been here and this is my residence.
Bob Sewell:Now the police are not as likely to just throw you out. They're going to want a court order to get that person out. They don't want to take the risk of violating someone's rights or getting involved in the civil practice, in the civil world. They are there for criminal enforcement. So it's real easy. When Sarah comes to my house and pitches a tent and says hell, no, I won't go, protests on my front lawn. I say that's my front lawn, please, please, get out of my front lawn. I say that's my front lawn, please get out of my front lawn. But it's different when you move into my house and you've been there for two weeks and I'm like, hey, it's really now time to leave, and you're like, no, I live here now, get me out. Get me out. That's a different story, and so we now need to employ people attorneys to get you out because of the civil process.
Sarah Clifford:Bob, what if I decide to camp out on the sixth floor and the landlord is really afraid of attorneys? They think attorneys are like the dentist and they're scared to work with attorneys. And they're scared, and so they just want to bury their head in the sand. They don't want to do anything about it, they don't want to approach it, they're not doing anything with the property anyways, and so they are just going to not do anything, bury their head in the sand. How long? Well, firstly, can they bury their head in the sand about this issue? How long can they bury their head in the sand? And what happens if they do bury their head in the sand?
Bob Sewell:So yeah, I mean in most, every state you're going to have, there's going to be some pressure points, right? So the longer it goes on I don't know if there's an exact deadline the longer this goes on, the more likely it looks like a tenant and not a squat, and not just someone who is trespassing. You know, this is a squatter, right? And the difference between squatter and tenant is you know what's coming out of their mouths, right? So the squatter is a tenant and that to the person who's squatting, but to the landlord they're just squatters, right? So this is. But the longer this goes on, you should act immediately. They're trespassing. They came in it's vagrancy. You know things like this to cast it in that light, because once they're there for you know some extended period and they've taken up residence, you're going to be treating them like a tenant. That's the problem. You're going to be getting them out like a tenant, and that's the issue.
Bob Sewell:And most states are not like Arizona. Most states have very friendly landlord, are not like Arizona. Most states have very friendly landlord, very friendly tenant laws, and it takes a long time to get someone out. You know, it's like someone told me it's like six months plus in New York, give me a break. Right, arizona, you could have someone out in about 20 to 30 days from the date you give notice, which is incredible. You know, incredibly fast. We're not. We don't have very friend. We have very friendly landlord laws, okay. So, yeah, it's. They need to start acting quick.
Sarah Clifford:So, bob, if I am able to successfully camp out on the sixth floor for long enough, can I make the sixth floor mine? Can I take ownership of the sixth floor away from the landlord?
Bob Sewell:yeah, so you're. What you're talking about is adverse possession, and adverse possession has to be open, notorious, hostile. You. As for our sixth floor, that's going to be tough to to adversely possess it, but if I would say it was just a, a shack, someone's house on the other side of town, that's going to be a lot easier. It takes adverse possession in Arizona. It's tough, but, yeah, you can do it.
Sarah Clifford:So in Arizona, Bob, we have a lot of snowbirds. Do snowbirds need to be concerned about adverse possession and if so, what should they do?
Bob Sewell:They don't need to be concerned about adverse possession. They do need to be concerned about squatters. These are true squatters, right? So in Arizona it's a sunshine belt state and what that means is we get people from all over in the cold states and they come here for the best time of Arizona, that winter time, and during the year, you know, they have their golf club house. There's all sorts of 55 and older communities in Arizona. They're all on golf courses and then during the summertime people leave and they summarize their house.
Bob Sewell:Believe it or not, they're going to put up bars and things like this or whatever they do, put up privacy stuff. They leave, they go back to canada, they go back to minnesota, they go back to idaho and, yeah, they, they got a problem and we have a problem in arizona. It's I don't think it's unique to arizona. I think we, I think it's just what's unique to arizona is our snowbirds. And you could end up with a situation where you come back from Canada and someone's living in your house and in Arizona you don't turn your power off. You may turn your air conditioning down to like 85, but you don't turn your power off for that period of time because your house will be damaged by the heat. So you have someone using your utilities inside your house and there's and you're going to be at least a month, depending on how quick your attorney can act to get them out at least and then they're causing damage.
Sarah Clifford:So how does that like? Could I be liable? Let's say I live in a 55 and older community and somebody starts squatting in my property, who is 26. Could I be in trouble with the HOA and get into not only a dispute with the squatter but also a dispute with the HOA over this person residing in my property?
Bob Sewell:Theoretically. Yes, right, so in these 55 and older communities, you got to be older than 55. I know that sounds stupid, but that's the restriction on those communities. You have to be over 55 to reside in those communities. That doesn't mean that you can't have a guest. You have your kids visit for a week or two. It just means you're going to be a permanent resident. You have to be over 55. Well, you have a squatter that's 26 years old. You've now violated your HOA and your HOA has a right to say get your squatter out, and they have a right to demand that you act. So, yes, that's going to be an issue for you.
Sarah Clifford:Yeah. So what if I and I know we talked about you can't go pull a gun on them. But what if, instead of doing that, I'm going to take the less drastic approach and I'm just going to go change the locks on the squatter? I'm going to go in, I'm going to change the locks on them. I am good, can I do that?
Bob Sewell:So the answer is no, but who's going to sue you? You know what you're really saying is are you going to out squat the squatter, right? And so theoretically you can't do it. It's not legal, it's probably pretty dangerous, right? I mean, squatters are typically desperate people. They're willing to do desperate things. They're not particularly rational. Otherwise they just have a job and get a regular. You know, get their own house. A job and get a regular. You know, get their own house. They've made an irrational decision to trespass and try to steal someone's residence. No-transcript. You know, theoretically it could work right.
Bob Sewell:So I've seen these stories online where someone goes in. They wait for the squatters to leave. They go in, they toss all the squatter stuff out on the street, they change the locks in place between them and the owner. They have hired their armed squatter and when the police come by and say hey, this is where the Johnsons live, not you, he says what are you talking about? Here's my signed lease. I don't know who those guys are. And then the police say I don't know who those guys are. And then the police say well, someone out.
Bob Sewell:You follow the process of getting them out through the Landlord-Tenant Act. You could probably get an emergency. There's ways to get them out quicker under the Landlord-Tenant Act in Arizona. But I think that the chances of having to deal with that squatter in that drastic way is less likely here in Arizona because I could go hire a landlord tenant attorney for very inexpensive.
Bob Sewell:Like these guys, they walk in with like 20, 30 evictions at a time. They slap them down on the table. They're like evicting Smith, evicting Johnson, evicting Sewell, evicting Clifford, and they handle it like this and the judge walks through these and then within five days they're having our whole system that the law enforcement go out and remove them and change the locks. So it's less of a. You're less likely to see these drastic moves to get people out in arizona than you are in other states because our laws are favorable to the owners. But in other states, like I said, six months or more come on, man, really, to get a squatter out. You're more likely to see someone taking these drastic actions. Like I said, they probably will work. You could out, squat the squatter.
Sarah Clifford:Yeah, oh yeah, I've also saw. I was gonna say I saw a website called squatter hunters and you can hire a squatter to move in with your squatter and make your squatter sink and the goal is to just you know, if you can squat in this property, why can't I also squat in this property and make your life miserable? So I mean, obviously I think we would discourage people doing that, because it's kind of dangerous moving in with somebody that you don't really know who is squatting on the property, like they could be dangerous. Oftentimes there's substance abuse issues or mental health issues, um or other underlying issues that are, you know, related to the need to squat potentially. But yeah, should I like, if I live in one of these states like California or New York that has very friendly landlord laws, should I take these drastic measures?
Bob Sewell:Yeah, I wouldn't, but I could see why someone would want to and I could see why someone would go to that drastic method. You know, there's a story. I saw her bedroom right, her spare bedroom and she leases it out on Airbnb and on a temporary basis and one thing leads to another and the person's like I'm not leaving and she had to live with that person for like nine months or something stupid like that, and that person's eating her food and just generally unpleasant, and she inadvertently ends up with the squatter. Well, yeah, I could see why you'd want to take some drastic method. You know, do some drastic thing, but I don't know if I would recommend it as an attorney and I could see that it's going to work.
Bob Sewell:Right, I mean, I walk in and I'm suddenly I'm suddenly sleeping on the person's couch. And what are you talking about? You know this is my couch now, and you know, no, is my couch now. And you know, no, I'm not going to stop eating your cold cereal. I like, I like Froot Loops, you know. I mean, I could see this becoming problematic very quickly. I also see it being effective. I just, you know, we live in Arizona. In Arizona, you know, there's twice as many guns as there are people, you have to think of a good way to get yourself shot.
Sarah Clifford:So I don't think it's a good idea to do it. Would it be effective? Yeah, probably, maybe.
Bob Sewell:Or maybe they just say, hey, a roommate, you know, and you wonder like, hey, when the person, the person, leaves, why did you just change the locks and then pretend like the person never lived there and say what are you talking about? This person's mentally insane, they never lived here. I mean, I could see this, this, that being effective too, uh, but don't recommend it, don't recommend it definitely dangerous.
Sarah Clifford:So I will let you know that when I squat on the sixth floor, I will decorate it reasonably and nicely and I will keep my parties to a minimum.
Bob Sewell:Um, the mosh pit will only happen on tuesdays, when you have court okay, so I hear everything from upstairs while I'm trying to be on court on the television or on my on my video machine here in the office oh yeah, for sure it's gonna.
Sarah Clifford:It's going to be like Jimmy Eat World and I'm going to have all my friends and we're going to be bouncing and the ceiling's going to be rattling a little bit and the judge is going to be like. Mr Sewell, can you turn down your music a little bit?
Bob Sewell:Oh my gosh, that's going to be. Oh, I could see this happening to someone. That'd just be horrible.
Sarah Clifford:Perfect. Well, that concludes this episode of. Is that Even Legal? And I am going to go take all my stuff and move up to the sixth floor now.
Bob Sewell:Sounds good. As long as you're not squatting on my podcast, I'm good with it.
Sarah Clifford:Oh, I'll be back next season, just you wait.
Bob Sewell:Thanks for listening to the podcast. Is that Even Legal is now listened to in a hundred countries and available on virtually all podcast platforms. Leave us a review, send us some show ideas and do so at producer at evenlegalcom. Don't forget, as smart as we sound and as lovable as we are, we are not your lawyers and we are not giving you legal advice. But if you need some legal advice, get some. There are some great lawyers out there and we are always ready to help. See you next time.