Episode 10: Shane, 'We're All Doing Time'

Quarantine Edition. Christina speaks with Shane, an inmate currently serving a life sentence in New York State's Sing Sing Prison. He gives a firsthand account of the events developing in the prison during the COVID-19 outbreak and how it's impacting inmate life there. Sing Sing was one of the first US prisons to report positive tests for the COVID-19 virus.


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Article referenced:
https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/it-spreads-like-wildfire-covid-19-comes-to-new-yorks-prisons


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Written and produced by Christina Hansen

Additional production and sound editing by: Jason Sissoyev

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:04

Hi everyone. I hope you're all staying safe and healthy right now. Well, my last several episodes have been recorded for my producer studio. I'm recording this one from my closet, so bear with me. The audio quality might not be what you're used to. I know we're all trying to remain calm and collected, but it's tough on the entire world is in a place of uncertainty. This upheaval of normal life hasn't been easy and some days are better than others. As I said, quarantine to my home, working remotely, cooking, cleaning my house 30 times over. I've had a lot of time to think, especially about our prisons here in the U S all across the globe nations. I've created guidelines for social distancing to prevent the spread of coven 19 sheltering and placing Sue the best way to flatten the curve, how to prisons, practice social distancing, China glee. They already sheltering in place from the rest of society, but there are hundreds of inmates confined in those close quarters along with correctional officers and medical staff that come and go on a daily basis. Each day. There've been more and more reported cases of prisoners testing positive for Cobin 19 and then some of those cases it means the passed away like everything else that surrounds the prison system. Where do we even begin? There've been some States that have started releasing inmates early, but that creates another issue. Where do they go? It's hard enough to find places for the formerly incarcerated to live when they're released under normal circumstances, but with our world and disarray, it makes it even harder. According to a recently published new Yorker article, a correctional officer in upstate New York syncing prison had tested positive for covered 19 inmates learn about the positive test from their peers, not the prison administration and I may quoted in the article said, as you might imagine, we were extremely concerned with the lack of information concerning a contingency plan. We feel like it's only a matter of time before the virus enters and spreads rapidly. At the time, many correctional officers were not wearing rubber gloves even when collecting large numbers of ID cards and patting down men for contraband. Over the last couple of months I've been corresponding with Michael Shane, hail and inmate currently serving a life sentence at sings in prison if his name sounds familiar because Jane is the friend and pen pals. Samantha from episode four I wanted to reach out to him for many reasons and for the last few months we've been corresponding via phone calls and writing to each other through a secure email system. Over the last two weeks he's been reporting the situation and things into me. He was able to give me a call on Wednesday to give me a few updates and share what the atmosphere is like and the prison that continues to be hit with the buyers. I wish the call was higher quality but has with a lot of things the best I was able to do. Right now I'm Christina Hansen and this is Penn,

Speaker 2: 3:14

an inmate at New York state department of corrections and community supervision. This call is subject to recording and monitoring. To accept this free call, press one to refuse this free call, press two if you would like to permanently. Thank you for using Securus. You may start the conversation now.

Speaker 3: 3:34

I'm good. I'm all right. You know as good as I can be with with everything going on. How are you doing?

Speaker 4: 3:40

Not much. I just went in the conversation today and just a little bit. It's not food and some other stuff and I was really good. Samantha sent me some, she wanted to send me a food package, something got messed up with it or something like that so she could send me some money instead, which was incredibly nice of her. So I went to the store, I was supposed to go yesterday but they've been like so backed up with everything that I'm like I finally got to go today. So I was happy about that.

Speaker 3: 4:07

Good. That was really sweet of her.

Speaker 4: 4:09

Yeah. She was like, you know like if you can like stay away like you know the mess hall, which is really the only place I'm like sort of interacting with people for the time being and stuff like that. Um, yeah, this out of the blue, she was just asking me like, seemed like it's a vague question like about food packages and I was like, you know, she was just curious what she was actually putting together like an order. That was really nice.

Speaker 3: 4:33

Yeah. That's great. So how, I mean, how are you feeling about everything or you know, are things improving at all? Are you, are you worried?

Speaker 4: 4:44

Um, I, the thing is I have no, absolutely no idea. Like what's happening? Like what's going to happen with school. I don't know what's going to happen with all the other programs I was involved in. I don't know, like are more people gonna contract this stuff, you know, they say the hospitals full of the infirmary, I mean someone, something like a hospital is full of people then they got like a, a housing area that's full of people who are according to need. And so I don't know, I think at least two people have died so far. Maybe someone told me five today, but I don't know if that's like an official number or just people talking. The prison grapevine is sort of like what people are talking about. So it's a lot of, uh, think a lot of people are even sick with it and like, you know, are doing all right now are gone. Okay. I think in the year like you can almost, I just assume that everybody's had it. We're coming in contact with it. So either they're asymptomatic or, so that's pretty much what's happening to just try to keep your sanity, you know, you're in your cage a lot more and uh, just trying to find something to do to take your attention off of a really bad situation.

Speaker 3: 5:58

Yeah. A distraction at least. So I do have a question. How are you guys social distancing, I mean, is that even a thing in there? Can you do that? Is it possible?

Speaker 4: 6:11

Well, they say that, but I don't really see it because I think I, you know, I don't know if it's a cultural thing, it's just that people are just so lonely. Then there's this very, cause we're very needy to begin with. Like once you become incapacitated, like for any sort of like socialization or attention, stuff like that. And so when people come out, like for example, we go to the mess hall, uh, like I always like walk in the back so I can actually social distance, but most people are just like walking side by side and in conversations with each other like, you know, there's no face coverings or anything like that. Recently they did say that the inmates could, they don't have to, but they said that they could carry an afternoon or a handkerchief with them and like cover their nose and mouth or whatever. So I, I really don't see people's social distancing. I think that they would like for everybody to, but as far as like enforcing it or anything like that, I don't really see it happening.

Speaker 3: 7:11

I imagine that would be tough anyway because you are in confined quarters, you know, it's hard to avoid people, right?

Speaker 4: 7:21

Yeah, absolutely. When you have like anywhere between 75 to 80 something people on one company, I mean they're open cages. It's not like, I mean, you know you have bars on the fund. Um, but I mean there's no really, if somebody calls like you know, your neighbor like cost or whatever analogy you hear it, but she just assumed that you know, the terms are going wherever they're going to. So I'm going to tell you it's really tricky for the administration and other people and I'm sure a lot of that's like crossing their fingers. I mean because in other spots I think it's been really, I think if the, actually we did testing for more people than just the people who are showing symptoms. I'm sure it would be something else.

Speaker 3: 8:02

What about things like the phone you're on right now, you know, other things that are communal. Are they having procedures for cleaning those things?

Speaker 4: 8:12

Well, they did come up, yes, they come out with like diluted bleach, like bleach, bleach water so people can distance. I like the phones, but, but then there's another area of the kiosk where people are interacting, not one-on-one, but it's time to use the tablets and emails receive emails or trying to get access to games or music or something. And those areas, they don't have anything readily available, just affect them. So a lot of people just try to create their own distinct identity. I know everybody's like washing their hands so, so even so even if the other, if they're not able to disinfect the surface or it keeps those with distance, a lot of people are washing their hands and stuff.

Speaker 3: 8:52

Right. I mean I guess that's really all anybody can do in there right now is just try their best.

Speaker 4: 8:58

When you look at it like on the national level and the global level, I think people are still trying to figure out about the virus, the covert 19 virus and figure out exactly how it's transmittable because there's a lot of information initially that you know, people just assume that you couldn't pass the virus just by talking to someone or something that's, that couldn't happen unless you were someone was affected and they spit on something. But the typical way that you might contract like the flu virus or something. And then I think the more information that scientists get and the more information we get, the more that you can see. Oh, okay. And it just, I think it's more difficult when you have a more of a bureaucratic system, like a prison to sort of implement certain changes. I've always looked at corrections officers, you know, with a lot of respect. They come in and they do a job that maybe a lot of people don't want to do and they're trying to take care of their families and loved ones and stuff. And I just see the way that society sort of treats prisoners is also the way to treat things like you know, corrections officers in a way. I mean I think their benefits and things like that, but a help factor, it's just, it's just weird how they uh, some of the policies that come down don't necessarily take into account that, you know, not, I mean probably more than likely like if if the virus, uh, when the virus got God here, I mean it probably came from the outside into a civilian, a staff member or something like that. But that there isn't necessarily that, that that point I think doesn't fit with a lot of people. These policies also if they were to implement them, for example, face mask, things like that of protect the staff as well, you know, corrections officers and stuff. And I think that that's an important link that a lot of people forget about. It's almost like, you know, corrections officers and stuff do not walk around in a bubble just like, you know, are prisoners or people who are incarcerated to not walk around in a bubble. They are just as much exposure to all of these things that people in general are. And I think sometimes just that linkage is kind of like forgotten either in the passion of like you know somebody who just feels like, Oh I hate people who are incarcerated, people who committed crimes or you know, that sort of ideology or philosophy sometimes overrides common sense. But I think in a lot of cases,

Speaker 3: 11:18

yeah, it's really interesting when you say that, you know obviously you have staff that are going in and out of the prison. Like you said, correctional officers, I'm sure medical staff as well and they're the ones that are going on the outside and getting exposed and bringing that in. And if there were some early on precautions taken that might've helped to, to benefit what's going on currently at sings thing.

Speaker 4: 11:41

Yeah. I think when you say it that way, there is always like this feeling like, wow, you're really at the bottom of the ship pile. I mean part of my friends. But you know, you realize how vulnerable you are and like how invisible you and how forgot you are. I think in this type of situation that you're living in OD, you're living through this experience just like you're living through it and that you just kind of forget like how vulnerable you are because you don't have resources a lot of people do in a way or even you know, some that don't. But like you can really see, I think as you look at prisoners and how they are reacting to the situation or being treated, you can also sort of use that I think as a gauge as to how other vulnerable populations like you know, the homeless and how they're faring in this type of situation because we don't have very many resources to have access to. And that you could just imagine looking at that how other vulnerable populations who don't have healthcare and stuff like that. How are they fairing? To me this is very, very fascinating as pandemic. It's a once in the last time being a hope. And it's something that I hope that when we look back at it can show how connected we are and how that, um, there's a lot more that we can learn from this situation about, uh, our society as a whole.

Speaker 3: 13:02

I agree. And I think I mentioned this earlier through, it was probably our emails or one of our phone conversations, but the fascinating part of it for me is you and I are talking and we're experiencing, you know, this pandemic and it's, it doesn't matter that I'm on the outside and you're on the inside. We're both having a similar experience. And I think it just shows how connected we really are.

Speaker 4: 13:27

Yes, absolutely. It's a very helpful because I think when you're alone you maybe get your head too much or you might come very numb to the situation. And so I think to have the space to be scared, you know, to have the space to be, you know, to just be human and to question things and in that you can analyze your situation and somehow I think out of that you can expose the ability for resilience. I mean in those types of situations. So it's okay.

Speaker 3: 14:06

Yeah, I absolutely agree. And you know, and that's something that I think as I talk to more people, not just you, but just friends and family is allowing the space to feel everything that we're feeling, whether it's fear or nervousness or anxiety. Just giving yourself space to feel all of that.

Speaker 4: 14:26

It's so cool. And it's almost like oxymoron. It's like, cause you're in a prison so to say, and you can't really feel, you all have like space to really move around much at all. So to see, you know, the idea of a space fulfills, it's really important on us. That really important one.

Speaker 3: 14:47

Yeah, it really is. I agree. Can you tell me what the atmosphere is like just from the other inmates that you maybe speak with on a daily basis? You know, how are they feeling about this?

Speaker 4: 14:58

It's changing. When it first started, I think people were, had no idea really what was happening. I'm, you hear those reports and you understand it to some degree, but I don't think you've all understood the seriousness of it. Initially I then when everything just kind of shut down, like no visits, no, nobody coming in school was shut down. Everything was shut down. Well, I think the first time, because I'm in a men's prison and I think people really thought, wait, something's happened years when they started closing sports, like the NFL and the NBA, people were like, wait, what? Like because believe it, because that's so extraordinary. And if people really cause people to sort of think about this is really, really serious. And then it seemed like there was this whole maybe like three weeks where it would just be so quiet. I mean, everybody was in their pages and nobody's really saying anything, which is extremely rare. I mean, prison is very noisy. There's always a lot of something going on. And so that was really different for me. I've never been in a prison that was so quiet. So the impact, I think the immediate impact, and it could be that maybe people, some people were sick and, and uh, people were just trying to figure this out, like what that meant. Uh, and then, uh, cause I was going to the muscle, I was still see people and you know, a little, a little like the first person died and that really scared some people and people were really in the superintendent sort of meeting with people, a few people. And uh, the people were relieved, you know, that he was meeting with them and talking to them about things and what they were trying to do, like we disinfected and stuff like that. And then it's like, uh, now there's a shift where it's kind of getting back a little bit more. Like it was. So I think that people are pivoting and um, adapting to this reality because, uh, you know, it's really sad. You hear from time to time, uh, I think like two or three people have died and um, people kind of shocked by it. But partisan, the weird thing is, is that when like one, somebody in prison does, you know, nobody really says anything about it. It just immediately like you go back to your program, you do this. It's just more like you hear the news and that's it. And sometimes that's a stark contrast. Like for example, when a corrections officer passes, I'm like, they'll shut down the prison, uh, in order to allow officers to pay their respects or go to the funeral or whatever. And so this was kind of like different in that, uh, someone passed and we were kind of like, just sort of stuck with it. So if she were trying to like, just go to your program to escape the feelings or, or something like that, it think it allowed people to sort of, you with that reality of their mortality in a way because people started getting, you know, hearing that, you know, uh, a friend of mine, his wife, uh, from, uh, another guy has been down for a long, long time. He's very old, like his, uh, his mother passed away because of Kobe 19. And you start hearing stories like that. And it's just so sad because you can't, well, reminds me of you when you told me about, you know, your friend and her father and how this keeps you, prevent you from connecting with people in the same way that you normally would. Um, and so in a lot of ways, like you're incarcerated, but covert 19, like the way that I'm in cars rated by, you know, the bars and the, and the prison walls and stuff that you can't reach out and, uh, be with people or to have that sort of impact, that physical release of, of, uh, of affection or emotion or physical support. And you can't offer that. So the next best thing is if you can get on a phone, um, thank God you can still do that and uh, or email or something. If you know the facility you're out. If it does, it allows you to do that. And, um, it's just so once that, like some people like the guy who, who's, uh, who his wife pass, like, you know, you're not allowed to grieve, you know, I mean meaning not allowed to go out there was some desperate visit, um, because none of the, everything is shut down. Some watch they have this, the central staff. And so, you know, he wasn't able to afford the opportunity to go out to go to a funeral because, you know, of course there's not going to be a funeral. There's all of this interconnected issue that is impacting everybody. It's almost like everybody's in a prison. And, uh, I don't know if you will understand that. Like, you know, you're going through this now and I hope to God like as soon as possible and that people can go on with their lives and be able to grieve properly and stuff, but that, you know, it's like you're, you're kind of like living our experience. I mean that we've, we live every day. Um, you kind of getting your joy, getting subjected to it. And, uh, I hope that, you know, that maybe like you were saying that commonality earlier that maybe it'll help us understand, you know, the human condition a little bit more. But now everything, it's not that it's went back to normal at all, but it's just trying to shift back more than you can see. People are socializing more. Um, people are trying to pass the time to invest if they can. And so they're, they're communicating more, they're socializing more and they're, um, so it's just the noise levels I can see like coming back to more of a normal of what they were before and which I would say is abnormal, but it's actually kind of like all along. So I noticed that now and I don't know where it's headed. Like, I don't know if that means like if there's another ponds like before things open up or whatever. Like what, what will that mean? Um, so I am noticing that people are, they're just a thing. But I think a lot of the defense mechanisms and hoping that people have is still the same. Like people is kind of, uh, some people are very like no to where they get to bed news and then they just, uh, you know, they get pissed off about it. Um, but then they just shut down like in one way or another or compartmentalize it somehow.

Speaker 3: 21:15

Yeah. It's interesting cause I'm hearing a lot of commonalities from what you were saying with your fellow inmates to just people that I've spoken with on the outside, whether it's my friends or my colleagues. It's that idea of there was first shock disbelief. You know, when you said that people started to notice something when the NBA and the NFL had shut down, then people started really paying attention and then there was that grieving period of not being able to see your loved ones. And I still think people are going through that, but we're also adjusting to, it's just really fascinating to me that again, you and I are noticing and experiencing very similar things and we come from very different worlds.

Speaker 4: 22:04

Right. That's true. That's very true. Absolutely.

Speaker 3: 22:10

You were saying that you're hearing the noise levels coming back a little bit. Is that because people are adjusting to this new normal or is it because there's really no other choice but to move on and move through this? I mean, what are your thoughts on that? Does that worry you at all?

Speaker 4: 22:28

Well, you know, that's a good question because I think that there are people who live in a bubble and a lot of times in here people don't allow themselves to really feel like you can see that it's affecting people, but that that emotional aspect, that it's not necessarily something that they're allowing themselves to fully realize. You know, like we have like support group or there's mental health staff around or counselors around or anything like that to that level to really talk about our feelings and to express them and stuff. But it's, you can, that's a good question because I think when you, okay, for example, a lot of times a lot of us come in to prison, we're younger and you forget that like, you know, life has moved on without you and a lot of times you'll be shocked. Like when you see someone from your past and they've aged and you don't realize that you've aged, so you're like, Ooh, like in a way, because you know, they, and you still see a remember life like, you know, from 10 years ago or 20 years ago or 30 years ago, however long it's been because you were incarcerated. And there's this, because of the, because the one thing that we all kind of, uh, that guide our lives is this of structure. I think when it's interrupted in a way that you look for some sort of structure to replace it with, it's almost like a form of learned helplessness in a sense. Because people are limited where we do, you know, to a life that is very reduced or limited by their incapacitation of incarceration. And so all the decisions are made for you. And what you can eat, what you can wear, all those things. So I think when something like this comes that you see, wow, this wasn't planning it and then it was something that came in that sort of just grew up the structure that everybody had that now everything's put on hold. I mean like people went to the parole board or people who may have, you know, things in the courts. Like all of those things are being postponed and it's so nobody, there's so now people are finding a whole new way to do a prison is a prison. But like, you know, the sentence that someone's been sentenced to, how, how, how do you, how do you adapt to that? So I do see that people are adapting it in a different way. Like it, I don't really like it too much because there's a, like you don't have those positive things that you can get involved with this sort of, uh, like you're not going to be able to go to the library. Uh, you know, hopefully if you have friends or family and they can send you books or they can know, do some money or food package or something, it can help you, you know, do the time and then tried to do it in a constructive way. But, you know, I, for myself, I was in the master's program and I, I in this the first two trimesters and started the third trimester and then all of a sudden there was like, bam, like no more classes and you, uh, I, it makes it nice to be so late. Okay, well what am I going to do now that you keep waiting to see what's going to happen? And there's no definitive answers about when things are going to reopen, whether or not, uh, so you kind of keep waiting and finding, you know, uh, some way to pass your time. So I think people are looking at the structure, looking at how it's changing and trying to, uh, find a way to adapt to it. Um, because you need, if you don't have some sort of structure, uh, in place, like, you know, you exercise the morning or you get up in the morning and you pray or whatever you do, if you don't continue to have that, like you start to lose your mind, um, it really starts to impact you in a very fun, healthy way. I mean, you sort of lose his balance where you're just lying there and that makes you feel like you're being aware of that. Then you realize that you don't have any worse than all of those messages that, uh, society projected onto you become internalized and in a way, because you don't have a way to resist those of those influences, those psychological influences if you want to call it. And you can resist that. And, uh, I, you know, I, I, when I hear people working from all, I'm like, that is amazing to me that people can do that. And if people are able to still have life, you know, like they don't, I'm sure people would love to have a great vacation, but not under these circumstances.

Speaker 3: 26:51

Yeah, absolutely. I think going back to our ears saying about structure, for those of us who are able to work from home, it's redefining what that looks like, what your schedule is changed, your meetings are changed. It's real defining that structure and I think that's also what a lot of people on the outside are going through is how do I redefine my daily life? It's strange.

Speaker 4: 27:20

Yes, absolutely. That's a really confined to the Ted talk, you know, redefining what matters and Ben is just like an incredible connection like for you to find in your life that absolutely

Speaker 3: 27:34

I, yeah, it's just as we keep talking, it's interesting just to hear these commonalities. Obviously, you know, I'm, I'm not in prison, I've never been to jail, but just the commonalities between worlds that seems so different, it's just kind of mind boggling

Speaker 4: 27:51

I think. So I think this is definitely one of those experiences where you don't have to like try very hard to find something to collar with. Nobody approves it. You don't have to try very hard at all.

Speaker 3: 28:06

Yeah. We're all kind of going through this weird pandemic struggle together.

Speaker 4: 28:13

Yeah. We're all doing trial. Right.

Speaker 3: 28:15

We're all doing time.

Speaker 4: 28:17

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 28:19

I appreciate this call and I really want to thank you so much. I'm just excited to share everything that you've said with my listeners because I think this is going to give them a perspective that they haven't heard before that I haven't heard before. And especially coming from the prison that's getting a lot of coverage right now. I mean syncing in New York is, that's where a lot has happened with this pandemic.

Speaker 4: 28:43

Right? Absolutely. I'm not sure. Well I think in a lot of that has to do with the fact that, I mean she is extremely unique and I mean I cannot say this enough. I was like, I was extremely fortunate and lucky to get transferred here because there's so many opportunities, program opportunities, educational opportunities to sort of connect with people and you know, like the superintendent. I think there's a lot of work to make that as accessible as possible and um, yeah, I mean to be able to have those connections cause you're, so you're closer to the city so it's easier for people to visit. Uh, and then you, you won't have the network. And that's a really valuable tool to have. And so sometimes a lot of people in the media, for example, maybe interested in talking to someone. And so a lot of people in here who've done performances or RTA or done talk, things like that, you know, they're like, Oh, I'll work with this guy. And um, you know, see if he'd be interested in talking to, you know, that sort of way. You have one minute left.

Speaker 3: 29:47

There's our one minute Mark.

Speaker 4: 29:51

Okay,

Speaker 3: 29:51

well again, Shane, thank you so much. I appreciate this and I appreciate you just wanting to talk to me and wanting to share all these experiences right now, especially in a time like this when it's so important to hear from different people and especially what's going on in the prison right now. So thank you.

Speaker 4: 30:08

Well, thank you for the space to feel powerful expression and I think it has a lot of great potential to make people think about, you know, their lives, whether you're inside or outside. Well thank you so much.

Speaker 3: 30:20

Thank you Shane. I'll talk to you soon.

Speaker 5: 30:25

This episode was produced by Jason Sawyer and special thanks to Matthew street for creating Pence. The music, if you or someone you know has a story to share, please send me a note@pennpodcast.com.