Episode 11: Shane, 'Being Part Of The Solution'

Christina speaks with Shane again, an inmate currently serving a life sentence at Sing Sing Prison. As Christina tries to understand the idea of inmates being cancelled out from society, Shane goes into detail about what daily life is like for him on the inside. From pursuing higher education classes, to learning a foreign language and giving a TedX Talk, he is determined to push himself despite his environment.



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To hear the music from Carnegie Hall's Musical Connections Program at Sing Sing:
https://www.carnegiehall.org/Education/Social-Impact/Musical-Connections

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Written and produced by Christina Hansen

Additional production and sound editing by Jason Sissoyev

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If you or someone you know has a story to share or you just want to drop me a little note, send an email to: pennedpodcast@gmail.com

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:06

Hi everyone. I hope you're still all staying safe and healthy wherever you're listening to this. Some of you may be already in a city where things have reopened or are in the process of reopening. As I record this for my home in Portland, Oregon, we're still sheltering in place. I've been left to my own devices during this past two months of quarantine and the one major thing I've realized is that this pandemic brings out the best and the worst in people. I've noticed how people have been oscillating between their own basic human needs versus their human wants. Oftentimes it seems that their wants come out as statements of entitlement and maybe it's misplaced. However, some of the cracks began to show and people's handling of this current situation. Now I have a story I want to share with you all thoughts for the topic of this episode. Let me start off by saying that throughout this pandemic and sheltering in place, I've been facing some of my own personal challenges. I recently made a decision to pause some of my social media habits and limit the time I spent interacting on those platforms. I realized how unhealthy it was to sit and read uninformed posts of heavily biased individuals. I would spiral into the comment section, well, that's just an ugly place to be. That being said, here's where my story begins. A few weeks ago I was thumbing through Instagram and watching the stories my friends and people I follow were posting to pass the time. I spotted a rant from a friend of mine. Well, it was more like a multi page vent about how angry they were because they purchased a bad bottle of wine and could not return it when they went to the grocery store, and mind you, this is mid pandemic. They were denied the return due to new coven 19 policies set in place, which are understandable, but clearly they were very upset as they took to social media to tell the world about their experience during a global pandemic and the moment of reading their multipage rant. I felt angry, angry that they could so easily push this world where people are dying aside, angry that they couldn't. Just for a moment, realize how difficult it must be for everyone working in that grocery store. Workers who are surrounded by not just potentially infected people, but people who feel entitled to stock up on toilet paper or cleaning products or bad wine. During this time, I also had a family member who was infected with the Corona virus and was on a ventilator for over a month. He was fighting for his life. I'm happy to report he's made it out of the ICU and is currently in recovery, but I guess I just had a view of the other side and that's where my anchor sat and as my anchor sat for a few days, I kept reading other posts from people I knew who shared similar ramps. So what did I do? Well, I made a post to, in hindsight, it probably wasn't the best way to respond, but I did it. I made a post addressing entitlement and attitude during this time. I mentioned how one should be thankful for the ability to be healthy enough to go to a grocery store and afford groceries and bad bottles of wine. How we should be thankful for people who put their lives at risk for us. Maybe I should have just let it go and moved on, but I couldn't. A few hours later, a person with the wine rant sent me a message that said, and I quote, wow, Christina, everyone has their own response to these weird times. I know you have a family member in the hospital, but your anger is misplaced. Check yourself and then they blocked me. Like I said, was pandemic brings out the best and worst in people is so easy to cancel someone out in an age where relationships are seemingly virtual as simple. The click, the buttons, control alt, delete someone's life out of yours. My experience as strange and petty as it might seem really got me thinking about the idea of canceling someone, not just in a virtual space, but in reality. We take a group of people, inmates, and we put them behind walls and bars and we forget about them. We cancel out their name and give them an ID number. We cancel their worth and pay them pennies for a job. They work in prison. We take away their right to vote and their ability to take out federal student loans. We canceled the human that once was before going into the system and expect them to become a normal citizen again once they returned to society and yet somehow we're still surprised when prison recidivism rates are so high in the United States. Canceling someone is so dangerous. In this episode we hear from Shane again who is currently serving a life sentence in sing sing prison. This interview was recorded a few months ago back when I was able to have some in-person studio time with my producer and thinking about Shane that continues to surprise me is his perspective on spending life in prison. He's adopted this thrive, not just survive mentality, which as you'll hear has helped create the person he is today. I'm Christina Hanson and this is Penn.

Speaker 2: 5:24

Hello. This is a prepaid collect call from an inmate at New York state department of corrections and community supervision. This call is subject to recording and monitoring. To accept charges, press one. To refuse charges. Thank you for using Securus. You may start the conversation now.

Speaker 3: 5:45

I want to talk to you about the projects and things that you are doing in prison right now. You know you mentioned this capstone and you're getting your master's degree as well. So tell me all the other things that you're doing currently in prison to not just better yourself but change the way that people view incarcerated or how you're helping your fellow inmates. Tell me a little bit more about that.

Speaker 2: 6:10

One of my values is definitely empowering agency and I think that definitely comes out of being inside of a prison where there's a lot of dehumanization that takes place then I'm not, I don't think that it's intentional that people are like, Oh we wanted to humanize people, but it's just in the makeup of how people are identified by number and the control of people's bodies, which is really important. I mean society wants to know that things are taken care of and in control. So I just say that to preface a lot of things I've been involved in, I've realized I've been really about like trying to establish community establish like safe spaces where you don't, well you know, violence isn't necessarily going to be an option because the people that are involved are more thoughtful and they're there to try to encourage and support you. And I recently gave a Ted talk about the power of relationships to redefine the reentry experience and I, I mentioned the power of relationships and where a lot of this happens is volunteer volunteer groups and specifically like higher education initiatives. Like I've got two associates, a bachelor's and two and a half months, fingers crossed I'll have a master's. That has been really, really important for me to be able to get a degree. After I was incarcerated, I was sentenced and I was sent up what we call up North, which is upstate New York. The prison I was in, you know, I met a counselor and she tells me, okay, all you, all you need is like this one program art, which is the question and replacement training. And I was like, okay. And then she was like, that's it. And I'm like, wow, okay, great. And I was surprised and shocked that you know, that corrections had programs for people and that you could help address your issues. Because I was absolutely deep down from the core of me. It was like, I will do whatever I have to do to never ever bring this type of suffering and pain into the world. I mean, I couldn't even believe I was responsible for another person losing their life. So when she said that, I was like, great, where? When can I sign up? And she was like, Oh, don't worry about it. You don't need it until like a couple years before your parole board. And I was like, I know that she had to know that I had like 50 to life. So I'm like, you mean I've got to wait 48 years before I can get access to a program to start dealing with issues or you know, to find out more about myself. And I kind of shrugged her shoulders like, well yeah, that's, that's how it works. So I was really like, I got to get access to this program. And I remember speaking to some of the clerks and being able to, uh, get into the next program because sometimes it will be guys who aren't available or like they, it or they didn't want to take it or something like that. It was relatively new. So I took it and I was really happy I did because I think that it's something that you need because when you live like with a thousand other people in very small quarters, it's rough. I mean it's really rough because you can, you run into people who have a really bad attitude and they're not happy. They may have got bad news, a family member died or they got a bad court decision or they were being harassed or something like that. You really need to be able to have certain tools to know how to deal with that so that you don't escalate situations but can deescalate them. So that was sort of like, wow, okay. And that was it. That was all I needed to take. And I satisfied therapeutic programs and I was like, great, can I leave now? That wasn't the case of course. So the only thing I could find like dealing with rehabilitation, which is a key word for me because what rehabilitation meant was that if you can find access to certain programs, you can change yourself and transform yourself and that you will not come back. Meaning the recidivism rate, the rate at which people return is usually very high, but it's very low for certain categories of people. And one of those categories is like being able to achieve a degree. So I remember I was on research, I got together a few people and you know, CO's completely ignorant about how this before works. Uh, again, uh, you know, being young and stuff, I had no idea. So what I found out was that we wrote to several universities and stuff and it was amazing. There was actually one university, Ohio university that wrote back and said, Oh, we actually have a program for incarcerated people. And I was like, wow. Like I couldn't believe it. And so they were like, yeah, like you know, it costs like so much money per credit, but this is how it works and we'll send you the book, you do the homework and then every now and then you're going to get, have to have an exam. It needs to be proctored, which just means that somebody needs to be there to witness it. And I was like, great, fantastic. So I went to the educational supervisor and I was so excited because I thought for sure this would be a situation where the administration or whatever would be very supportive of. So I, Hey, you know, can I talk to you for a minute? She's like, yeah, what was going on? And I explained, Hey, I got this college program that is willing to do correspondence courses and I was so happy I saved up my money and I was going to pay for and pay for it. And I said, the only thing is that you just, it just has to be proctored. So she just gave me this like look like we're not letting you do that. And I'm like, what? Like it literally like so caught me off guard that she had given me that response. And so she was like, yeah, we're not going to let you do that. You know? At that point I really hadn't grasp the idea of like how authority works and things like that because I just always looking through the lens or the framework of myself, which is that, you know, I'm trying to better myself or better my environment. I've brought up a similar argument to her, but I was like, I thought that was the whole of this. Like I'm trying to get access to this so that I can better myself. And, and so she kind of took a minute and she's like, okay, I'll tell you what, you can do it but you have to pay for the officer's overtime. And I was like, great. You know, like, okay, I don't know how expensive it's going to be. And I remember asking all kinds of people like what overtime was like. And I found out about this whole like grade system and people who been in for, I've been working there, they were locked in a certain grades and that would determine how much money they got and and overtime with a time and a half and so forth and so on. So I was so excited and I was like, great. And I was trying to figure out figure that they would probably give the guy who'd been there the longest with the highest grade I probably wouldn't have to pay. So it was gonna be really expensive. It was actually going to be more expensive than like, you know, some of the credits I was trying to pay for it and it's hard to find out. The joke was obvious because it's like a catch 22 I can't pay for the officer's overtime and therefore the officer won't Proctor the exam. And so it turned out that isn't how it works at all. But I just wanted to bring that up to say that really, really made me value the idea of education even more so because I looked at it as something that could help me transform myself. And in fact it has, it has. So going through that, I started getting involved to, depending on where you're at and what prison you're at, rather, there's so few opportunities. Like I'm currently a things in correctional facility and it is like field with what I call private partner, private public partnerships where you know, the administration works with like an outside group volunteer group or a higher education initiative and they allow the program to run. And you, it's, it's, it's mindblowing cause you meet all these people who are coming in and they see something in you that you can't see in yourself and they help you see that. They help them nurture that. So being able to, you know, have access to that was amazing. And I remember literally looking at any opportunity to help educate myself was very, very important. And, um, so being in st Louis, I've had a lot of, a lot of opportunities here in college. Like I was able to graduate my associate's degree I think two summers ago. Last summer I graduated my bachelor's degree and this summer I should should graduate with my master's degree and it's a lot, a lot, a lot of work, but it's definitely worth it. I've also been involved in a few other things like for example the Carnegie music program, musical connections, then able to play a keyboard scene. I'm currently involved in the Carnegie chorus project is able to do a couple of concerts. Recently Carnegie had its first like family event where they put on a concert and the people who are in the program, they can invite a family member and they come in. And that was amazing because I was literally watching this one guy come in who was a friend of one of the people in the program and his mother and the guy was like sorta like wait. And then all of a sudden he noticed his friend who's one of the participants and he was like, Oh my God, he's playing a cello. You know, getting the guy's mother's attention. Look, look, there's your side. He slayed until it was like so credible. And one guy even like use the event to be able to write a song about proposing to his girlfriend and she accepted and it was, it was really amazing about how those type of events, I can help transform how people see their family members and it really affirming them for doing something positive because it's hard to do those things. Even when you're in here, when you're in here, you think it'd be so easy, you've got all this time. But in reality, I mean you do those things, but a lot of companies, a lot of it seems like it's just a struggle to really support those programs. Like sometimes security has a big issue with certain things and you have to really be committed and it shows people's on one level of associate administration's commitment to giving people access to this program. And then it also shows a level of commitment on the people who are involved in them understanding how difficult prison is because a lot of security concerns, you know there's fighting cuttings, there's a lot of violence and stuff and so it's within that environment, these really positive things are going on. But there's also a lot of like negative things and it's hard cause you're talking about a sub culture and trying to change that. But in addition to that, I recently was able to give a TEDx talk so it was a lot of fun. It was nerve wracking, but it was a lot of fun. Our friend Samantha was able to come and watch and that was amazing. Like a pinch myself moment. Like I would look over and he was there like we were watching a lot of the other presenters and stuff. So that was like really amazing to have that sort of connection with a friend to be there in that moment. But just a lot of other things. I'm like inmate Buddhist facilitator than meditating for like years and years and years, which has been super helpful for me to be able to sort of accept and work through not only my stuff but also the environmental stuff. I had to go through a lot in here. Mandarin Chinese. I've been learning Mandarin Chinese from, we have a class here for that. I'm also taking a Columbia business school. So we've been learning about financial literacy last semester and this semester we'll focus on fundamentals of entrepreneurship. Currently it was able to participate in a leadership programming for Hudson links count me in initiative, which is about helping people get involved with understanding their voting rights. You know, what that means for them. And also, well, let's see, I'm involved with so much, I can't even, yeah, so the, the veterans organization, I've also often on, like I've been on the executive board up until this last year because I was in the mattress program, but I served as secretary president, uh, you know, trying to help my brother veterans to be able to, you know, have a space but also to try to develop some real outside veteran connections for them to be able to get support. So it's really, uh, that's really important, you know, for me to be able to be involved in positive, positive or AVP alternatives to violence project. That was the first time I ever came into contact with volunteers from the outside. I was an Auburn correctional facility and they were talking about AVP and I was like, yes, I'm, yup. And I get there and like these people are literally for a weekend workshop. They spend the weekend with you. I mean, you know, during the daytime they, they leave and they come back the next morning and I couldn't believe this that the people were actually volunteering to come in to teach you how to develop like strategies for, you know, alternatives to violence and I couldn't believe it. And that really was such a help because I think by that time I was really starting to get indoctrinated into prison subculture and to de-value people devalue their worth, sort of look at everything as being transactional. So you know, those are just like something like pays prison for AIDS counseling and education is a really group that really trains people to not only to be able to advocate and peer educate around HIV AIDS, which is really important for me because I remember one of my friends, I was in contact with one of the few friends he had contracted HIV while I was incarcerated. I remember being on the phone with him and all, it was like, wow, like it just blew me away because I thought that, you know, what did that mean for him? And like could I have done anything to help prevent that or whatever. And so I loved the fact that I had an opportunity to get involved with the organizations that would allow me to be a part of the solution. And that's really been a huge focus of my being a part of the solution, you know? And here like it, same thing, it's, it's easier to be a part of the solution because they have a lot of great programs that you can then like you can, I can help tutor other people. I can help just emotionally support other people sometimes. But just being an ear for them to listen to. I mean one of the best experiences I have, I worked in transitional services for about four years and transitional services is a space where it, it a services like three types of people. The first group of people like in orientation, like there's this new to the prison or they just got transferred to the prison and just it's for a week long program use. This gives them the ins and outs of the program. People come in and talk to them. And the second part are people who are actually new to the system or they recently were sentenced under a new sentence for maybe they were out and they caught another bid, which means, you know, they got another crime and those people, it's a week long program dealing with phase one. And I really loved being able to be involved with that and help develop the curriculum in a way to get people motivated and involved. And finally was able to work in phase three, which are people who are leaving within a few weeks, which is sort of the topic subject of my Ted talk. So you know, it just gave me such hope and it was amazing to be able to work with people who, cause it was a huge challenge for me. I facilitated a lot of groups, but they were all volunteer, which means that people were signing up to be there. But in these groups it's mandatory. So people are kind of bad because I was like, why am I here? Like they're just, I don't need to be here. And so to be able to find way to connect with listened to and motivate people really helped me a whole other skillset that I didn't realize that I had, but also to reach and listen to people. Because sometimes people in certain positions don't listen to people and there's this, they're like, yeah, you know, okay, I hear you. Yeah, we're just going to get through this. Well, if you don't want to be here, don't come. And like, and for me it was so much different because I really, really wanted people to be able to create a reentry plan that they could be proud of, that they would have confidence in because the recidivism rate is so incredibly high. So in the master's program, that's actually, I'm doing two capstones. One of them is dealing with Thompson. The foul was I wanted to do two that I could when I could work on while I'm incarcerated. The other, if I were released, I could work on it. And the one that I want the reentry solution to help reduce or in recidivism. And it's just a model that takes into account the two biggest challenges that we have with mass incarceration. One is that, you know, the uh, extremely high recidivism rate and the other is a, it's the fact that like there's a huge perception problem that people, cause Lester Holt came in one time, we were, we were filming for a live town hall event on MSNBC on a justice for all week. And I remember he came in, he's like, no, I'm here to hear your voice because you know, most people think that you guys are just a bunch of like murderers or criminals and stuff. And that blew me away because what I got from that was that communities who have someone who was incarcerated and that that person, 95% of people incarcerated going back to their communities. And it shocked me that most, cause he's giving me an opinion that is a consensus of like, you know, from all across the United States of America. And so when he said that, it shocked me because I realized that communities do not see people in prison as a part of their communities. And so this reentry model reentry solution, what's it called? AAA kind of works on both of those two issues. So it's a little novel, but the reason it's important to me is I'm hoping I can break a boundary as a person who's incarcerated to maybe get, you know, to do grant writing to maybe get it funded. Because one of the key issues in here is that people are very close to the problem and some of them come with some really excellent solutions, but then when they leave, they're confronted with a whole set of other problems that they have to figure out. So being able to empower people while they're in here to focus on, to come up with solutions to problems, uh, and be able to do that while they're here, I think is really important. Because a lot of times people just forget or they, you know, the, the motivation isn't the same as like when you're all of a sudden you're out and you have to like worry about employment and so many other family issues and stuff. Like, you know, it's just, you don't have the urgency anymore. But, um, so yeah, that's another long answer.

Speaker 3: 23:41

No, I feel like, I don't know. Are you the anomaly of, of an incarcerated person? I guess. Help me understand, are there more people like you that you are incarcerated with that want to make the types of changes that you do and want to be that change in their communities or as they're experiencing life in prison?

Speaker 2: 24:03

So put this in perspective, like when you come to sing sing, a lot of things are already established. And so I came from a background where I was in prisons where there was nothing. Like, I went to Auburn and they had the Cornell prison education program and you know, some incredible professors and stuff. And it was working with some other people like Michael Rines, Mr. Williamson, and we were talking about, you know, they were really trying to set up a start startup theater program. It was just an incredible ability. You've learned really quickly. You have to network, you have to be able to express yourself. And those were things I did not have at all because again, I had very low self esteem. And so to really force myself, I had to find something I could believe in and I really couldn't believe in myself. So believing in other people gave me the motivation to be able to do that. And so the Phoenix player, the inner was, is a great example of how bringing something into existence. And it was only through, you know, a community of inside people and then the community of outside people and creating that chemistry and it was credibles of work that was able to be done. So coming here is a little different because all of a sudden like, who are you? Nobody knows you. And even if they know you, they really don't acknowledge you that much and you have to be very careful of not stepping on other people's toes of being involved. So there are people who are here who are incredibly gifted and really understand the power of remorse and redemption and they're moving forward in that way. But you don't see it a whole lot unfortunately. And I don't know, that's such a great question you asked because I wrestle with that. I hear the superintendent here, superintendent Capra, he wrestles with that I think in a different way, but like you want like, you know, there's a really big focus with a group of guys that I'm with like taking me for the last quiz. Um, he's a man who is, you know, innocent, but he's been really helpful creating these choices programs, which has been phenomenal, is choosing healthier options and every confronting every situation. And it's about, we're able to go in and work with the mentor incarcerated and their children and their families and we're able to create these events and that they can do some of these exercises and stuff. And it's transformative. I think for people to see each other in these leadership roles and to see people opening up in a way that a lot of times people just ignore certain things. And so that's, it's been really, really amazing to be around those people. But it's not like every person is like that because I don't want it to lack of education or if it's a lack of educating people about how to make things happen. Cause some people are very, very fortunate, they have a lot of resources that, you know, they've met other people in the community who believe in them and are willing to help create an awareness around their situation but also to help create an awareness about inside situations like Dan slips, you know, and isn't BBC news. He's a producer, worked at NBC and he's been really, really helpful. Like to JJ for less, was really helping a lot of people in here find a voice like voices from within. It's a group that I'm currently in and you know, they did this really amazing thing a few years ago where a lot of the guys who had gun violence, they talk, they spoke about that experience and it's so powerful that it's, you know, being used in a lot of different spaces and stuff. But again, that's something that could only have really spirits thing thing. This is the only prison that I think is in the United States and I'm aware of that you can go from a GED to a master's degree. So you know, as soon as I got my associates from Cornell, the Cornell prison education program, you get the classes through Cornell and they get transferred to Cayuga community college so you can get awarded an associates degree. And after that we were really trying to get a bachelor's degree program. And you can imagine that, you know, Cornell being what it is that a lot of people, I just not going to be okay with that because they probably feel like it diminishes the cachet of like of an Ivy league school and stuff like that. But you know, it is one of those, I was like, well I got a transfer thing and I was so fortunate. So, so lucky I got moved here. But in anomaly I want to say no, but a majority, no, neither. So I, and I don't know like if it's just that people don't know how to do it or are intimidated by it cause I came in and I wasn't, I'm not in a gang, I'm not those sort of things. And I was in the closet for awhile, so I'm Caucasian. So those sorts of things kind of create identity issues for people, you know, being alone or being, so I think that sort of forced me to confront a lot of my issues, the person I wanted to be, the person that I was becoming. And I'm so grateful that even I'll always say, despite my environment, because it's so challenging that I've been given these opportunities. And I, you know, after every class that I take or every most events that I'm in, I always write a thank you letter to the commissioner, to the superintendent to the, or whoever's like ahead of the organization or whatever, to always express my gratitude for these opportunities. Because for years, like you couldn't get act or I could not get access to these programs and stuff. And it's weird because what the responses I get back are so strange because it's like sometimes I will have been the first person to ever say thank you to me. Like that's you gotta be kidding me. Right. But it's, I think that it's part of the isolating component that comes with mass incarceration that most people feel like their voice doesn't matter and that they are grateful, but no one will that step to write a thank you letter. And then, so again, it's so hard. That's such a great question. Like what is pushing the behavior? Is it the culture? Is there a way to influence it because a lot of these programs are definitely, you know, one of the way you could critique it is that, you know, these are people who are self selecting. I mean these are people who were signing up for these programs and it isn't like a program is you mandatorily put people in it and then they're progressing. I did have that experience in phase three where I was doing like a survey like afterwards and was asking people about getting feedback about what their experience was like and I've really started realizing that like, okay, people are getting a lot out of it, but they're also, it might be just me like it might be because I'm there, I'm putting all this energy and support into people that maybe normally wouldn't happen because of the, like for example, the counselors are incredibly helpful. They're really, really smart, but they have like 10 million jobs here thinking like not only are they like doing their individual case loads, but they're all alright, well, okay, okay.

Speaker 3: 30:47

This has been amazing. Everything that you've shared with me is very eyeopening and I would love to schedule another call at some point. Let me email you kind of like I did the last time and you could always call me like during the week too and I could chat with you. It won't be recorded, but we can set up another time to do that. That works for my producer and I because I think like you're giving me so much information that I cannot wait to share with my listeners about what life is like for you in there and the opportunities that are available. And I'm very excited. Thank you for using. Bye.

Speaker 4: 31:30

[inaudible].

Speaker 1: 31:30

This episode was produced by Jason Sawyer and special thanks to Matthew street for creating Pence. The music, if you or someone you know has a story to share, please send me a note@pentopodcast.com

Speaker 4: 32:02

[inaudible].