Does exercise impact breastmilk production? Nutrition and fitness strategies with Ashley P Lambert!

Are you concerned about your breastmilk production or have you heard that exercise can negatively impact on it?

This week I have the please to sit down with expert Ashley P. Lambert to dispel myths and offer practical advice for new moms facing these challenges.

Our conversation cuts through the misinformation surrounding exercise's impact on breast milk production and underlines the fundamental role of nutrition, particularly protein, in supporting lactation.
We tackle the anxieties that can cloud this joyful time, offering insights into the necessity of intentional eating for both mother and child's well-being.

And, of course, we touch on the rights and wrongs of postpartum exercise.

Ashley is a joy to talk, and listen to, so I'm sure you're going to love this episode.

You can find Ashley everywhere you have an internet connection;

Her website (where you can also find her program)
Her Instagram (where you definitely should go to follow her)


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So this means that you not only get 3 months FREE access, no obligation!

BUT, if you decide you want to do the rest of the program, after only 5 months of paying $10/£8 a month you now get FREE LIFE TIME ACCESS! That's $50 max spend, in case you were wondering.

Though I'm not terribly active on  Instagram and Facebook you can follow us there. I am however active on Threads so find me there!

And, of course, you can always find us on our YouTube channel if you like your podcast in video form :)

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Email peter@healthypostnatalbody.com if you have any questions, comments or want to suggest a guest/topic 

Playing us out this week; "I fell into heaven" by Oliver Penny

Transcript

Peter : 0:00

Hey, welcome to the Healthy Postnatal Body Podcast with your postnatal expert, Peter Lap, that, as always, would be me. This is the podcast for the 12th of May 2024, and today I'm talking to Ashley P Lambert and we're talking breastfeeding and breast milk production postpartum, especially combined with exercise. You know I know a lot of you are concerned about how exercise concerns your breast milk production, and that's kind of what Ashley and I are talking about for the next hour or so. You're going to absolutely love this, so, without further ado, here we go. Why do you think many women are concerned about their breast milk supply and exercise?

Ashley: 1:00

I think there's kind of two folds to this question. A lot of women are concerned about weight loss when it comes to the postpartum period, and then also just like protection against like chronic conditions that can sometimes occur after having babies.

Peter : 1:47

So I think our mind is kind of juggling between the two different baby benefits and mommy benefits when it comes to breast milk supply yeah, and it's interesting because I I did something about this a while ago where I came across a study or one of those papers that said something like 50% or 54% it was a very specific number of all women surveyed in Ohio or someplace like that it was said that they were concerned about enough about their breast milk supply to go see their medical professional usually their GP or their doctor about about this or bringing up with the midwife, and yet of that, only 40 actually chose to supplement and all that sort of stuff. So it clearly is it's the breast milk supplies and not not having enough breast milk is really a concern for quite a lot of women, isn't it?

Ashley: 2:43

yeah, absolutely that's a concern. And then when you add in like exercise and getting back into your health routine, it's you know, a lot of women experience their breast milk supply decreasing and so it's really important to make sure that you are maintaining and sustaining and through nutrition, it's really helpful to help with your breast milk supply. And so women, when they come to me, it's like I feel like I'm drinking so much water or, you know, I'm concerned about it starting to decrease as I get back into my exercise routine. So really just educating women and helping them see that nutrition is so healing for the body and can help with the breast milk supply, and so there you know, you don't have to worry about your breast milk supply decreasing if you are intentional about feeding your body the right foods to make sure you have enough for your baby to thrive yeah, and that's a fascinating point.

Peter : 3:37

So in in your experience, do you find that women are struggling with all that because they are too occupied with exercise for weight loss, or do you find that, as in they're not eating enough, they're still in that, say, diet culture mindset that I have to get my pre-baby body, which is a horrible term. I have to get my baby body back. Therefore, I'm dieting. At the same time I'm exercising and I'm breastfeeding, and do you find that those, the combination of that three, is usually what causes the problems?

Ashley: 4:11

yeah. So the number one thing that I see really is women are just not eating enough, and specifically they're not eating enough protein um postpartum. And so we think we're eating enough, we think we're supplying our body with enough nutrients, but when it comes down to really the protein intake, it's close to almost half, or even a little bit less, of what we should be actually intaking to maintain and sustain that breast supply.

Ashley: 4:39

And it's just an education piece, because it's like we think we're eating more than we really are, so you can't change what you don't measure, and so until you start focusing and really being intentional on what you're putting into your body, then there's no way to really know if you're supplying your body with the right nutrients. And, of course, being a new mom it's hard right. You're juggling all these different things, you're trying to keep this new little baby alive and your mind is just going through a million things at one time, and so it's really important to just make sure that the protein if you're going to focus on anything make sure the protein intake is sustainable enough for you and baby to thrive yeah, so for protein, and we talk about protein quite a bit on here.

Peter : 5:23

It's the old studies, so to speak, for recommended daily intake of protein that you come across online, which is usually the ones that the health services use. They are remarkably low, right, they are insanely low, um, something like I don't know, like a half gram per kilo body weight, or even 0.75, something along those lines. How much protein do you recommend? Women who are breastfeeding should really try to get in.

Ashley: 6:01

Yeah, so I like to be really specific to each case, so it's really important for me to know exactly where you are, but just like a general bystander, just an easy way to like decide if you're eating enough is to use the palm of your hand and to try to get one or two portions of that in with every single meal.

Ashley: 6:20

That will get you on the right track to at least having a sufficient amount of protein in your diet. It's just some women just feel like you know, I'm just eating whatever is around. I think about when I was postpartum after my first baby, and I'm just popping in like peanut butter pretzels all day because I was so overwhelmed of being a new mom and so just really being intentional and having things that are just kind of grab and go helps a ton too, where it's not like you have to sit there and cook because you know you don't have the time to do all that. So just a calm portion, one or two with every single meal, will absolutely get you on the right track and help with your breast milk supply and also the quality of your breast milk, making sure it's nutritious. All the nutrients for baby to thrive are also in your breast milk as well yeah, that's a very, uh, american measurement.

Peter : 7:10

Uh, you guys are all about the cups and the handfuls and all that sort of stuff. Like the europeans are very much grams and all that sort of thing. You're uh, you're not wrong for anybody in europe listening to this who's going yeah, but what's the handful? Usually the size a handful the size of your hands does translate roughly to, to portion size per person. I, I have freakishly big hands, so for me, not so much I would gain a ton of weight if I start eating the size of my ounce, but for most people who are, who are some who are at least semi-human looking, they, they, they can, they can pretty much do that and you know, the the palm of your hand is actually quite a good measurement.

Ashley: 7:57

That's proportion per meal, right, that is not per day yes, correct, and you know I love to get down to like actual grams and ounces and all that. But just to start, until you feel like you're in a place where you can like add that into your routine of measuring and all of that stuff. The palm portion is a good place to start for most women yeah, and it's also I'm.

Peter : 8:22

But I, when we, when we talk about like grams and all that sort of stuff, grams per kilo is usually what comes up, especially in bodybuilder world. You know people that really track their macros and their calories and all that I always say just ballpark right and the palm is a great way to do. It is a great way to do it, or just go. You know, if you, if you're aiming for 1.1, 1.2 grams per kilogram of body weight to say you weigh 70 kilos, uh, you're aiming for roughly 70 grams, that's about a 210 gram chicken breast, something like that you can just just go. It's such a chicken breast way. About enough, then that means you, you're fine because you'll get round about enough, enough protein. So which? Which other foods do you find that a lot of people are just not getting, not quite getting enough of that, to the point where it creates some issues for them nutritionally yeah, so the other thing is going to be like healthy fats.

Ashley: 9:21

I feel like, um, we, we are either eating a ton like way over the amount we showed, or we're not eating barely any. Um, so that's really important to work into the diet as well. Carbs, um, most women don't have an issue with the carb everybody has enough carbs yes, yeah, just trying to find the healthier option of carbs.

Ashley: 9:47

Um, you know, the starchy carbs and all that good stuff, making sure we're getting our fruits, our vegetables into our diet. Um, but mostly the healthy fats is kind of where women struggle the most next, either being way over or way under with the intake for the healthy fats yeah, what sources are you looking at for healthy fats and all that sort of thing?

Ashley: 10:07

so you're looking at fish and avocados yeah, so we're looking at things like, yeah, avocados, fish, nuts, seeds um, I love all like the chia seeds and the flax seeds and stuff like that. That's all going to help with digestion. We look at like avocado oil, avocados, like you said, just trying to add some more variety into the diet. I think we get so used to eating the same foods over and over and postpartum.

Ashley: 10:35

Your body is trying to heal right from that experience of being pregnant and then also bringing your baby into the world, and so we need different foods and let's like use nutrition, because nutrition is medicine, it's healing for need different foods and let's like use nutrition because nutrition is is medicine, it's healing for the body, so let's use it to help speed up the recovery as much as we can yeah, no, that makes that makes complete sense.

Peter : 10:55

So we're trying to stay away from all the saturated fats and all that sort of stuff. It is interesting because, again we're. It's slightly different now, I feel, for the younger generations, and I'm saying that because I'm, as I always point out, I'm a middle-aged white guy, right? So I'm, I'm almost 50 years old and that means that generationally I am 20 years behind most of the people currently trying to get pregnant, trying to give birth and giving birth and all that sort of stuff. And my generation was really much, much raised on birth and all that sort of stuff, and my generation was really much, much raised on the low fat diet sort of thing and I know there's still.

Peter : 11:30

you know, if you look at at certain uh groups weight watchers they're still really big on on this sort of nonsense. But the the people in their early 30s, they probably have a different mindset when it comes to low fat at least. But just for people who are still stuck in that, who were raised on that low fat thing or who that was passed down, having enough fat in your diet is absolutely essential if you're looking to get enough vitamins in Getting your fat soluble vitamins in, to get your fat soluble vitamins in your ade in case right yeah, so it varies for everyone and I I hesitate to put like a number on it for generalization for everybody, but, like you can, I'm going to go back to the hand thing.

Ashley: 12:20

You can use like your thumb as as a measuring, as you know, for your intake, to see if you're getting way too much or way too little.

Ashley: 12:28

So I love to tell women, like, think about your, your thumb, the top of your thumb, and think about trying to get at least three to four serving sizes in per meal, and that'll get you on the right track until we're at a place where we can actually measure and you know, decide, based on your, your weight and your goals and all of that good stuff, exactly how much you should be intaking. Use that kind of like as a marker in the beginning, just to see, am I getting a nap? And you know even the stuff that you cook your food in, like if you're using butter or if you're using oil. Those are all things that are that are fats, and so sometimes we just it's a free-for-all, we don't even think about it, um, but using the thumb is is kind of like a good starting point to use and trying to get like three to four at least servings in per meal. That'll get you on the right track cool.

Peter : 13:17

So we've got our food covered, we're all set, we're eating enough. We're eating enough protein, we get enough fats, and you know, I always put the caveat in get enough fiber, because fiber is everything in my world um absolutely so, exercise wise, where do you come in?

Peter : 13:35

I've, I've come. There seems to be a. There seem to be two counts. There is, assume, in the postpartum period, the initial rehab period is finished. So people say, done with my stuff, done with diastasis, recti, it's at least under control and they can kind of go their own way. There seem to be two camps. There's a camp that says high intensity interval training is terrible for you. Then there's the camp that says for your breast milk supply, sorry, let is terrible for you. Then there's the camp that says for your breast milk supply, sorry, let me put it make that clear. Um, and then there's the camp that says, actually, there's nothing that shows that exercise has any effect on on breast milk supply at all, as long as what you're saying, you're eating enough to compensate for what you're actually doing. What, when, when do you fall on that one?

Ashley: 14:25

yeah. So I fall into um if I say if your body is healed and there's no complications, like you said, the diastasis is healing. If you had a c-section, there's no oozing or blood or anything like that coming from your. Then there are certain things that you should kind of focus on in each phase. But, like, if you're like you just got cleared by your doctor at your six weeks point, then like I try to focus on the healing of the pelvic floor, making sure that your foundation is good, your core is rebuilding strength. So then when you move on into the next phases of either lifting weights or doing high intensity things like that, your body is ready and can handle that additional stress. I hesitate to say you should be doing this and not this. I try to say let's focus on this in the in the, you know, zero to two months postpartum, and then when you're two to six months, let's focus on rebuilding strength even more, but let's add another stressor into it. So let's add some light weights, let's add some resistance bands, and then you know, when we're six plus months postpartum, then we can start making sure our foundation is good, we can start lifting those heavy weights, we can get back into the high intensity that you love.

Ashley: 15:37

Every woman is different.

Ashley: 15:38

When it comes to me, I work with a lot of women who have always been active, and so it's kind of just forcing them to hold back a little bit, even though they feel like I can go 100 miles per hour at this point. But just making sure that we're totally healed internally and making sure that our body can handle that additional stress is super important for me. When working with women, I think about you know myself and being someone who always exercise and like someone telling me oh, you shouldn't, you should hold back a little bit, even though you feel like you can go 100 miles per hour. It's a totally different mindset when you're postpartum and just giving your body grace right, giving yourself a chance to heal, making sure everything is good to go before you jump right back into those high intensity. Um, really challenging workouts, because you're going to get to where you want to go. It just may take a little bit longer, but you will be healthier, you'll be stronger and you'll feel your best. Um, just allowing your body that extra time to just heal.

Peter : 16:36

um from the inside out completely yeah, because and I'm very much with you in in that particular camp because, like you said, it's it for people who used to be very active it's always about holding the back, especially what I find pro athletes and all that sort of stuff, those women and I say guys, but we all know I'm mainly talking about women they're a nightmare to work with postpartum because they've always got next competitions coming up and all that sort of stuff.

Peter : 17:02

So you think, yeah, you might want to skip this one, sit this one out, or you won't be as competitive as you want to be on this one, but you're on the return journey. But when it comes to I quote, normal people, as in, people that don't get paid to perform, so to speak, to do a sport or dancers, are the same Dancers are a nightmare then. Then you know the the life of a dancer is absolutely brutal to to be, to be a, a paid performer, and that is is is. It requires so much hard work and dedication, right, and to not be able to do that for a while and then give birth, and then you want to get back into it because bills need to get paid and also you have that that drive. Someone's always looking to take your spot right. Someone's always looking to take your place, um on that sort of thing. So it's managing those temptations can be can be quite difficult, um, for normal people.

Ashley: 18:10

Yeah, just take it nice and steady and you'll likely be fine, because you'll get there anyways yeah, yeah, it's just, it's a total mind mindset shift, um, and so that's something that I really focused on, too is just making sure that we're aligning our goals with what we say that we truly do want in the future, and not focused on the immediate rewards.

Ashley: 18:31

But let's look at like long term and focus on that bigger vision. I think mindset is probably one of the hardest things to shift when it comes to postpartum even for, like our normal women, it's just like we're so used to our body feeling a certain way or looking a certain way. It's really hard when you look in the mirror and you don't recognize that body that you're in, but then also you're in this beautiful place of I just brought this beautiful new baby into the world. So it's like you're extremely happy on one end, but on the other end, it's like your body. You're like what has happened, what is going on? I don't feel like myself. So trying to marry that that experience it's, it's can be challenging, um, but there's so much beauty on the other side when you can actually bring your mindset to focus on the future and the bigger picture.

Peter : 19:23

Yeah, because you must come across this a lot as well, right, where you just where the the mindset is still very much that diet culture type mindset, where women kind of I don't know how often you experience this, but I get this a lot um, where women kind of come to me and say, okay, I'm coming here because, okay, I have some diastasis rectus, some pelvic floor weakness and and all that sort of stuff, but they also want to lose weight, right, and that is quite often higher on the list of priorities than I'd like it to be.

Ashley: 20:00

And again middle-aged white guy.

Peter : 20:02

no one tells me that I have to look like Chris Hemsworth, so societal pressure is different for me, but for women it's a minefield. How often do you come across that and how do you manage to bring your clients on board with with that mindset change that is so important?

Ashley: 20:25

yeah. So I agree, I have this same experience when working with women. It's like the first and foremost thing is is the weight loss? Um, and you know, in my opinion, if you do everything else around that, like your, your nutrition is balanced, you know you're consistently moving your body and that sort of thing, then the weight loss is going to happen. It's not a question, it's just it's going to happen.

Ashley: 20:48

It just might be not being the time that you want, but really focusing in on the women and helping them realize why are you doing this? What is the weight loss going to do for your life, for your everyday life? What's on the other side of the weight loss? So, really getting clear on what that is and I do this exercise where it's like we talk about the why they're doing this and so we go like seven layers deep. I just keep asking why, why, why, why, why.

Ashley: 21:14

Until we get down to the root reason of why they feel like they need to lose the weight and how that's going to change their life or their body or maybe their relationships and that sort of thing.

Ashley: 21:26

But just getting really clear on why we're doing it and seeing that you know, even with the weight loss, they may not reach that goal that they really, truly want. It's just bringing everything into perspective and showing them that you know the weight is a beautiful thing. If you want to lose weight, that's great, but let's not make that the only goal we talk about, like functional versus aesthetic goals, to where you know you want to lose the 10 pounds, but then also I want to be able to feel strong, I want to do a pull-up I've never done a pull-up. So really making sure that I'm bringing the different goals that we can have in addition to the weight loss forward to the forefront as well, so we're not just solely focused on the weight loss goal yeah, and that's a good point, because I find, with a lot of um, with a lot of postpartum women, it's much more a body composition, a, a looks goal.

Peter : 22:21

And when I say body competition composition, I'm not talking about the way, um, philip pape does it with turning them into bodybuilders and I have, uh, I have bb pros and all that sort of stuff. I'm talking about, uh, sculpting the body in the way that, you know, the stomach is a bit flatter than it used to be, as in the actual stomach. I'm not talking about the little lip of fat or anything like that, or even the, the belly. I'm talking about the actual, actual stomach. Uh, the glutes are a bit better, the the alignment is a bit better, posture is is improved and all that sort of stuff. I find that that tends to be actually, when you dig down deeper, like what you're talking about, that tends to be more the goal than, yeah, I want to look better in the dress. That tends to be the goal rather than I want to lose the weight.

Ashley: 23:14

Because if you're still a, crap in the dress.

Peter : 23:15

make it 10 pounds lighter. Nobody really feels comfortable and I know I'm being very blunt there no, yeah, I appreciate that and that.

Ashley: 23:24

That is so true, peter, you know women say they have this like fixed goal on like the pounds, like this certain amount of weight, but it's just like okay. But if your body looked the same as it does right now and you reach that goal, that weight goal, are you going to be happy and it's like okay. Well, no, so that's like okay. Then we have to focus, like you said, on body composition and really making sure that we're actually getting stronger, healing the body in addition to the weight loss, and like also thinking about the future. Right, Like you want to be able to run and play with your kids. You want to be able to get on the floor and play, walk up the stairs without being out of breath.

Ashley: 23:59

So just really seeing how all of that comes together and what we call this health journey, where it's not just I want to lose 15 pounds and that's it. It's like no, I want to be able to play with my son and his kids. Eventually, you know when that time comes. So just keeping the focus up and on the bigger picture than just the current moment of you know, I want to lose this 15 pounds.

Peter : 24:24

Yeah, and that is absolutely, absolutely huge. So when we're looking at just a pop back into that milk supply, that breastfeeding area, like I I said, there are a lot of people that are concerned about their uh, about their breast milk supply. And, yeah, you might have come across this right where you find that, okay, no matter what they do, no matter how they eat, they still feel like they're not producing enough milk. They may well be, but they feel like they're not. Yet there is still this reluctance to supplement by using formula. Do you come across this a lot? Because it is really common in the UK for people to not buy formula, even though they can afford it, because I know formula is ridiculously expensive for a lot of people.

Ashley: 25:16

Yeah, yeah. So I feel like I've come across both scenarios. It's where, like you know, we just have this vision in our head of you know we want to breastfeed and that's kind of like the vision that we've held this whole nine months of pregnancy and that's how I'm going to connect with my baby. But I think at a certain point we decide that as long as baby is thriving and growing, that's the most important thing. So if that means I have to breastfeed and supplement or just supplement, um, then women make that shift.

Ashley: 25:45

Um, I think there's a reluctant in the beginning, because it's kind of like you know, it's kind of you've had this idea that this is what your postpartum journey was going to be, and so that's kind of heartbreaking for a lot of women is, you know, I really wanted to breastfeed and I can't, or you know I'm not producing enough milk or whatever it shall be. But that point when the doctor is like you know, baby is not growing or needs more than it's like, ok, we go into mom mode and making sure baby is good is first and foremost, and so I find that women make that shift a lot easier than trying to just hold out in the beginning, like you know, I understand it so hard. My sister had the same thing, where she just thought she was going to be breastfeeding and that was her plan and then her baby just needed more and so she had to supplement. So at first it was really heartbreaking, but then after that it was like I'm just focused on baby growing and being healthy.

Peter : 26:46

And that's the number one goal. So you know, we had, she had to make an adjustment. So do you think because I, I bang about, I'm on about this a lot do you think this is something that we should really address during the antenatal classes? You know, the prenatal classes, uh, the, the, this is what your life will look like once you've had a baby type classes that always tell you to everything will be unicorns and rainbows, right then, that's these things will always tell you everything will be amazing. But do you think that you would, as, as as a professional, would, would see the benefit if people just address this a little bit more, your life would be made significantly easier because the understanding would be there that you know, sometimes it doesn't quite work out. You, you should not cut calories to the extent that it affects your breast milk supply and all that sort of stuff absolutely.

Ashley: 27:34

I think education is so powerful and knowing that there's different scenarios that can happen, the more you know, the more that you're aware of different things that can happen, the more prepared you can be and open to trying different things. When it comes to the postpartum period, and it's just such a it's a phenomenal time because you're, on one hand, just over the moon, excited and happy, but then, on the other hand, it's like you're very stressed, you're very sleep deprived and you're it's a new life, it's a new experience, you're in a new role, and so I feel like the more that we can equip women with the tools that they need before baby is here, the easier the postpartum period will be. And, like you said, the cutting of calories that's. You know, the quickest way to kill your breast milk supply in infancy is to start cutting calories right away, and 99% of the women that come to me are not eating enough to begin with. So even cutting calories even more is just not the answer. Your body just needs time to heal. It knows exactly what to do. It just needs a little bit of time and a little bit of help.

Ashley: 28:40

But you know, there's nothing that we have to do any like crazy sorts of things to help the body move along. It knows what to do, and I wish, I think, we're in a better place than we were as far as education for postpartum women, but we're still not there. We're still not where we need to be. We're still not where we need to be, but women are open now to a lot more scenarios and things than they were, you know, even five, 10 years ago. There's so much more testing now being done for postpartum women as far as breast milk supply and exercise and all sorts of things, so we're moving in the right direction. We're not there, but thankfully there's amazing people like you, peter, who are educating women and helping them see the different options that are out there. So we're definitely moving in a better direction.

Peter : 29:27

Yeah, because, like you said, five, ten years ago there was nothing.

Ashley: 29:31

There was absolutely nothing.

Peter : 29:33

I wasn't a thinker 12 years ago. I mean it was a thing some fitness professionals knew about 12 years ago. I mean it was a thing some fitness professionals knew about, um, but it wasn't. I started writing about it like roughly 10 or so years ago, uh, blogging about it, uh, on my sad little personal training website. Um, and before you knew it I was the only one in like in the uk. So and I'm not saying that to brag, I'm saying that that is how ridiculously low priority that type of stuff, uh, that type of.

Ashley: 30:05

Thing was 10 years ago. So we've come, like you said we've come a tremendously long way absolutely, we still.

Ashley: 30:12

You know, the future is bright for postpartum women and we're starting to, you know, bring their issues more to the forefront when it comes to postpartum, and even when we talk about, um, the mindset and the different things that women go through mentally postpartum, or starting to categorize those things in a different way than it just being postpartum depression, like there's so many more different avenues and things that are happening in the brain, um, and so I think, like you said, we're moving, we're moving, grooving, but it's going to take some more time to get where we need to be for sure oh, absolutely so.

Peter : 30:49

So you know, have a look at your um at your website, which, like I said, I always, I always obviously do before before booking everybody on what are your. You have a tremendous amount of of of knowledge. What are your top three tips that you would say every woman looking to start a postpartum exercise program, especially um, what are the top three tips that you say to make sure that your breast milk supply flows nicely and naturally that well that you're still getting the results that you want, and all that sort of stuff?

Ashley: 31:27

for sure. I think number one would be slow down to speed up. So what I mean by that is just slow down in the beginning, let your body heal from the inside out. You, you know, take your pelvic floor healing, your deep core healing very, very serious, before jumping into super high intensity workouts. Number two would be to make sure that you're getting your protein in. If you're going to focus on anything as far as nutrition postpartum, one thing is just focus on that protein, making sure you're getting enough for you and baby to thrive. And then number three, I think would have to be the mindset piece of um just giving your body grace and giving your body time to heal.

Ashley: 32:12

Um, you know, if that means a day or two where you you don't have the energy to exercise, then that's okay. Um, you know, this is a, this is a journey. It's a marathon. It's not a sprint. It's going to take time, but you will eventually get to a place where you feel like yourself again. You're stronger than ever Because, honestly, postpartum, you're the strongest version of yourself, even if you don't feel like it in that moment.

Ashley: 32:35

You just went through an amazing experience of pregnancy and bringing your baby into the world, and so just giving yourself grace I think is is the third thing that I will say for sure well, that makes complete, complete sense to me.

Peter : 32:51

Um, cool, I think we've covered quite a bit of ground there, to be honest, um, and we covered all the basically a lot of the points that I, for sure, wanted to cover. Was there anything else that you wanted to touch on?

Ashley: 33:04

No, I don't think so.

Ashley: 33:05

I just think, you know, remembering that the workouts that you did, maybe pre-pregnancy, they're not typically taking into account that your body has performed a miracle so by co-creating life and giving birth to your beautiful baby. You know you need time to recover and time to rebuild your strength. So, when it comes to maintaining your breast milk supply, it's just really important to make sure that your workouts and nutrition are actually working together and not adding additional stress to the body, to you know, because your number one goal is to breastfeed your baby and I. You know that's a beautiful goal and it's absolutely doable. You just need the right strategy to do it for sure and taking a holistic approach. You know where you're thinking physically, mentally and emotionally.

Peter : 33:50

Bringing all those things together is, in my opinion, the best approach to do that oh yeah, no, there's absolutely no doubt and that's why, like I said, when I had a look at your website the milk and muscle method and all that sort of stuff I look at it makes complete sense.

Peter : 34:08

You can't separate the two and, like you said, don't go postpartum, don't go back to what you used to do prenatal.

Peter : 34:14

There are one or two other issues that need to be addressed first, and then you want to build everything up nice and steady and indeed, working with someone and I keep saying this and I know people disagree with me on this working with someone who specializes in this stuff in postpartum life, or at least whose main focus, like yourself, whose main focus is on postpartum health and postpartum women, I think is a no brainer. And, like I said, I've had people on before that disagree with me that say, no, you don't need to be a specialist. But you know personally, and I would say this admittedly I'm rather biased because this is what I specialize in, but it's taken me a fair while to get to this stage and it's taken you a fair while to get to the stage, and I don while to get to this stage, and it's taking you a fair while to get to the stage, and I don't think a weekend course is necessarily enough for people to just go yeah, you know, I can train postpartum women now.

Peter : 35:06

We'll all be fine, right it's?

Ashley: 35:09

yeah, I have to agree with you, peter. I mean I even think about to win before. I started focusing on this years ago, when I was the head trainer in a gym and they asked me to train someone who was postpartum. I'm like I have no idea what to do because I don't know how it is there in the UK but in America that's not part of your personal training course. You don't learn anything about postpartum, you don't learn anything about training women who are pregnant, and so to tell someone who hasn't done any additional training or education, it's just really hard for not only them but then for you, because I don't know what they need to help you focus on and helping you rebuild your pelvic floor and all of that good stuff. So you know people can disagree, but I agree with you, peter, that you know dealing with someone who this is their life and this is what you're passionate about and truly, truly, truly want to help women, you know, become the strongest.

Peter : 36:01

strongest, help them become the strongest version of themselves during this period is is I totally agree yeah, it is exactly like what you said and I'll crap on the personal training um courses that are out there now for a little bit, but it's a lot of fitness professionals listen to this and I know you have a lot of fitness professionals listen to this and I know you have a lot of fitness professionals in your network and health care professionals in your network and all that. It is a personal training qualification is bad enough Nine out of 10 times. Sure, you can study sports, sports science and all that sort of thing, but let's be honest, to be a personal trainer, quite often you can take a part time course or a six week fulltime course or something like that. In the UK. You have enough points, you're accredited. They'll send you off to work in a gym for a pretty crappy salary, but at least you're qualified, at least you have a certification behind you.

Peter : 36:50

The standard and this was 10 years ago when I took my first postpartum qualification that was a six-week full-time thing, uh, but you had to do case studies and all that sort of stuff and even that at the end of that I walked out of that after six weeks thinking I know nothing. You know what I?

Peter : 37:10

mean as in they've told me stuff, but I have no real knowledge whatsoever. Uh, and what you find now is that there's a lot of postpartum qualifications out there for you, for people who are not aware of this, that will do like a weekend, like a long weekend, and that is your postpartum qualification course. Fundamentally, there's nothing wrong with getting your qualification that way. In my opinion, it really doesn't matter much Because, like I said, I knew nothing after six weeks and I'm fairly sure, if you give me a good course over the weekend, I would have had the same amount of knowledge that I think there was a lot of fluff, but it's all in the application for me, right? I figure stuff out, like what you said. Almost every answer, you, every question I asked you were well, that depends right and well, that depends on the person. And that's how you.

Peter : 38:02

That's how you know you're talking to someone who knows what they're talking about, because there's not an absolute right everybody's an individual and and especially postpartum women, because the pregnancy journey and I hate, and I'll air quote that because I hate the journey phrase um, but it's it's, it's so individual for almost every single person that the end result, the postpartum journey, is hugely individual.

Peter : 38:31

So there isn't there is something that applies to everyone. Sure, eat well, exercise well, be sensible, that type of stuff but everything else is so individualized, so you really want to work with someone who knows what they're doing and who can easily adapt whatever the program is that they actually use all the time.

Ashley: 38:50

Absolutely. You know, Peter, I agree with you. It's like you know, you take a course and you learn all these things and it's like, well, that's great, but how do I apply this? But for me and you know, I've had two babies in less than two years, and so it was a lot of trying things on myself and, you know, journaling and figuring out where is my mindset, when is my body during this postpartum period and really helping women through the same period that I, you know, the same process I had.

Ashley: 39:18

It's so funny I attract women who were kind of in the same place as me. Like after my first son, I was extremely depressed, right, I had all these unrealistic expectations on myself. I'm going to just snap back I hate that word, snap back culture. You know my body's going to go right back to where it was before, and when that didn't happen, it was just like, well, what's wrong with me? You know my body is broken, what is happening?

Ashley: 39:42

And so really, just that even spun me into even more education, more research, because even the things I had learned, it's like, okay, that's great, but that's not really how I'm feeling at this point. I can apply the science, but like the mindset and the actual process of going through postpartum is, like you said, so different for every single single woman, and I think just some women just need that extra support during this period because it's some women just feel like they're isolated and they're alone and they're the only ones going through feeling a certain way. But even just you know, partnering with these women and grabbing them by the shoulder and saying I'm here with you no-transcript If you keep showing up for yourself postpartum in your fitness, like you said, journey there's, you'll eventually get to exactly where you want to be and you'll even surprise yourself honestly, because you're going to be so much stronger than you could have ever imagined yeah, yeah, that's what I always tell people.

Peter : 40:43

I can't give you your pre-baby body back, right that? Is never going to happen it'll always be different but I can make you a much stronger.

Peter : 40:52

I can make you stronger than you ever were. Right and let's be honest, most people and this goes for men as well as women are not actually that strong and that fit and that healthy in their teens or 20s. They're just not. We don't know. And one of the biggest issues I come across a lot with postpartum recovery is that when women say I want to feel like I did before, is you have no idea how you felt before. You have no idea what, whether your core was actually functioning properly or not, because you never tested it and you never tried it right.

Peter : 41:28

Um, you know, when talking about diastasis recti and all that sort of stuff, but I always say, okay, technically you know, if you have less than a two and a half centimeter gap, you don't have diastasis recti anymore. Technically, that is just the way it is. And then it comes down to the what your individual gap always used to be, and no one I've ever spoken to in their 20s, no one ever spoken to prenatal before, before falling pregnant, ever knew that they had any gap there at all. Yes, so what your norm is is different from anybody else's, but you're not usually aware of it. So the generic norm, science, the, the generic stuff that you learn in your course, exactly like what you were saying, it applies, but it's not. It's not complete. It's not complete without that, some sort of experience of, or empathy for, the journey that someone's actually been on, and and I don't think you can necessarily get that unless you are surrounded by it all the time.

Peter : 42:39

If, if you know what I mean, um, and then when you're talking about coaches to work with, like I like always said and exactly like, like, like what you mentioned, you know, postpartum could be quite an isolated sort of thing and regularly I was the only person outside their spouse that someone would see for the week. Do you know what I mean? If you live in the middle of nowhere, your personal trainer shows up, that could regularly be the only guy or girl that shows up that is not a family member. So you want to make sure that they kind of know what they're doing Exactly, absolutely, um, so you want to make sure that they kind of know what they're doing exactly absolutely and like what you said.

Ashley: 43:20

It's like you know, we were used to our body looking a certain way before we were pregnant and before having a baby. But that doesn't mean that we were, like you said, necessarily strong. It's just that we had a physique that we were happy with. And so when I think about my clients who are like a year postpartum, they're like I am the strongest I have ever been in my entire life. Not only do I look strong, but I feel strong, like I'm able to do things I couldn't even do before having a baby.

Ashley: 43:50

And it's so much more than like you said, so much more than the aesthetics. It's like actual functional strength. You know to lift the baby out of the car seat and then out of the tub, all the twisting, the picking up the toys. You know the daily things. And I think once you get to a place in your walk, in your postpartum walk, you start to realize and your mindset starts to shift to the bigger picture and your life beyond the year postpartum or the two years that you've been postpartum, seeing the possibilities that you're actually capable of, not only physically but emotionally, mentally. You know some women are like, yeah, I can go and get that job and ask for that raise. Now I'm the strongest version I've ever been, and those are the most beautiful things that I love witnessing and seeing outside of the gym is how does the gym atmosphere, they're building the strength, apply and spill over into other areas of their life? It's just so beautiful to see yeah, and that is that.

Peter : 44:47

That confidence thing is absolutely huge. I did a thing. I got in touch with one of the UK charities I work a lot with charities in the UK and a while ago and they were talking we were talking about the gender pay gap and I said, well, believe it or not, I can help with that as a postpartum coach. And I said, listen, you have to realize that it's really difficult to ask for a pay rise when you're feeling like shit all the time, when you're feeling weak or when you're sneezing. You leak a little bit, so to speak.

Peter : 45:19

That is not a pleasant position to be in and if you're always thinking and it's really difficult to go get that job and to have your confidence back. And this was to be fair. This was five, six years ago and people looked at me the people of that charity looked at me like I was out of my mind. They just looked at me like no, that makes no sense. Just give us the same amount of money and then we can afford personal training. I think they just maybe it was my communication skills, but they kind of missed the point that I was trying to make. And whereas now I think we do see that benefit quite distinctly Because, let's be honest, a lot of women have to work postpartum. It's not necessarily a choice anymore. Life has gotten so ridiculously expensive that every two-income household has to be a two-income household, otherwise you're not going to pay the mortgage.

Peter : 46:12

This is just the way this is just absolutely let alone single parents and all that sort of stuff, but it's to then not be able to function at the level you want to function at is is much more difficult, um. So working with someone who understands just how important postpartum recovery is, um seems to me to be a no-brainer.

Ashley: 46:35

If you can swing it, of course, if you can afford that otherwise you have to just follow the right people online and kind of just hope for the best a little bit yeah, I think now in this day and age there's so many options as far as like group coaching and one-on-one and memberships, and there's all sorts of you know different price points of things now that are available so that you know women in all circumstances can get the support and help that they need.

Peter : 47:04

I think so and, like I said, the milk and muscle method is one of those, because you do group coaching and one-on-one, don't you?

Ashley: 47:11

I do, yeah, so we do the group for the women who you know, there's a lot of women they're like I know what to do, and then you know I just need it. And then some women really want the one-on-one attention where you know it's we're working really close together and they want that one-on-one time um, and so yeah, I offer both um options, sure.

Peter : 47:33

So there you go. I will obviously link to the website for anybody listening, because I don't offer either right. Everybody listening to this knows this. I don't do live coaching. I have no time for this stuff. I have a program that you can use. But if you need a bit more this is what I always say. This is how I always break it down If you can afford to work with Ashley I don't know if you do face-to-face stuff, but I assume so For the right amount of money. Everybody kind of does face-to-face stuff, right, I don't do face-to-face stuff, but if someone pays me a grand an hour, I'll show up.

Peter : 48:07

So that is, if you can afford to work face-to-face work, face-to-face work, face-to-face work with someone standing next to you. If you can't afford that one-on-one coaching online it tends to be a little bit cheaper than face-to-face Go for it. If you can afford group coaching, not one-on-one, okay, then you go group coaching. If you can't afford that, you take something like the Healthy Postnatal Body Program that I do. That is just a standardized program. It's split up into many ways, so there's a ton of options there, but fundamentally it's still something that you kind of have to figure out yourself a bit more right, it's a little bit more difficult.

Peter : 48:45

No matter how good it is, it will never be as good as somebody qualified standing next year. It's just not going to be. Um, and at the very bottom of everything is following people on youtube and social media and all that sort of stuff. Well, actually, at the very bottom is just doing a bunch of random diastasis. Right, I say workouts, but, but fundamentally that that is that. That's why I always say that is the order of things. Um, so you know, if you can't afford one-on-one coaching but you have more money in the bank so that you don't want to do the HPMB program, ashley is here to do group coaching and one-on-one coaching. That's all I am saying. Right, thank you On that happy note. Was there anything else you wanted to touch on? Because now we've definitely covered a ton of ground.

Ashley: 49:38

Yeah, I just wanted to touch on Because now we've definitely covered a ton of ground. Yeah, I just wanted to say thank you, peter, so much for having me on your show. It's truly been an honor and I'm just so thankful to be here and just so honored that you would allow me to speak to your community and it's been a true blast. And as a special thank you to your members and your podcast listeners, I am offering a special a hundred dollars off the program. So if they're ready to apply the link down in the show notes, please apply. And if not, I have a free resource that they can send me the word gold on Instagram. I am a liquid gold fit coach on Instagram and I'll send them over a free resource with recipes to help supply and maintain their breast milk supply and start their fat loss journey as well.

Peter : 50:17

Cool, I will link to absolutely everything in the show notes, as I always do. So, on that happy note, I will press stop record here, and press stop record is exactly what I did. Thanks very much to Ashley for coming on. Absolutely love that conversation. I think she takes a very sensible approach to all this type of stuff, which is exactly why I was delighted that she agreed to come on to the little podcast. Again, I will link to absolutely everything.

Peter : 50:46

You can obviously check Ashley's website out it will be in the podcast description Instagram, the liquid gold fit coach and all that sort of stuff. You will find everything there. You'll find everything in the show notes, so definitely check it out. Like I said, I don't do one-on-one live coaching and all that sort of stuff or group online coaching and all that sort of thing. So if you're into that sort of thing and you're like, yeah, pete, I, and you're like, yeah, pete, I like the HPNB program but I want more guidance, ashley is the woman to have a chat with. So check that out and I, my friend, will be back next week. Peter at HealthyPostnatalBodycom. If you have any questions, any comments, just get in touch. That's what I'm here for, right, you take care of yourself.

Speaker 3: 52:04

Bye now. I love you. I spend my time just wrecking my brain Just to fill the space. But you give me something new when I'm lonely at night. I had no idea about what was to come when I saw your face. That you were an angel that came here to bring me to life. That you were an angel that came here to bring me to life. You have me under a spell. I fell into heaven when I fell for you. I never thought I would be here sewing up your wounds, but you got me over a barrel. To tell you the truth, I can't imagine a world without you coming through that gate. Trying to make sense of it all doesn't help with the way. Oh, you had me under your spell. Oh, I fell into heaven when I fell for you. You had me under your spell. Oh, I fell into heaven when I fell for you.