The Healthy Post Natal Body Podcast
The Healthy Post Natal Body Podcast
Mastering Baby Sleep: Expert Tips and Strategies with Missy Yandow
This week I have the pleasure of talking to sleep consultant Missy Yandow.
Missy is a sleep, and potty training, consultant at Slumber and Bloom and we discuss absolutely everything you could possibly want to know about sleep training.
From the age you could actually start to whether babies should sleep through the night.
From what the goal of sleep training should actually be to all the methods of sleep training that work, and those that don't.
The importance of routines and the myths you might have heard before.
Missy is one of those experts that's also a joy to listen to so you're in for a treat for the next 45 minutes.
You can find here everywhere online;
Her website (where you can get a FREE sleep guide which covers the top 5 things to do to ensure the best sleep possible with a child at any age (birth through 6 years old).
Instagram
And Facebook
Email peter@healthypostnatalbody.com if you have any questions or comments or want me to interview a specific person
As always; HPNB still only has 5 billing cycles.
So this means that you not only get 3 months FREE access, no obligation!
BUT, if you decide you want to do the rest of the program, after only 5 months of paying $10/£8 a month you now get FREE LIFE TIME ACCESS! That's $50 max spend, in case you were wondering.
Though I'm not terribly active on Instagram and Facebook you can follow us there. I am however active on Threads so find me there!
Playing us out; a nice sleepy piano tune "Nocture Op9 No2" by "moments"
Hey, welcome to the Healthy Postnatal Body Podcast with your postnatal expert, Peter Lap. That, as always, would be me. This is the podcast for the 7th of July 2024. And today you know, Day Before Music and all that you know I have a guest on right. Today I'm talking to Missy Yandow. She is a sleep consultant and you're going to love this conversation. She is from slumberandbloomcom. Like I said, she's a sleep consultant. We're talking everything to do with sleep training. Your baby Should you be sleep training? What your goals should be when you're sleep training, what age can you start sleep training? The different methods and all that sort of stuff. How much hard work is it supposed to be? What is it not? And you're going to love this conversation. Missy absolutely crushes it. So you know, know, without further ado. Here we go. At what age do we actually start sleep training?
Missy:Yeah, so that is a bit of a loaded question because it really depends on the child, the parents and their take on sleep and what's kind of going on in their own situation. I generally recommend four months. Between four and six months is the best time to get quick results with, you know, very little pushback from the child. It sounds young, so some parents aren't necessarily comfortable with sleep training at that age. But my biggest kind of rule of thumb is when the parents are ready and when whatever they're doing is not sustainable anymore.
Peter:Yeah, so because you know four to six months, how do we actually start with them? Because you know there are so many, what is the latest thinking as far as you that you use Because you know? Are we just going to let them cry through the night? Are we still responding Because it's a whole. It's a different ballgame from when I was a kid.
Missy:Oh yeah, and I. It's funny you ask because I remember my husband's aunt when I had my first kid. She was like, oh, you just like close the door and let him cry it out, and I'm like no I don't really feel comfortable doing that.
Missy:So I do respond within reason. I don't have parents just completely use any extinction. I will have them either in the room giving intermittent comforting to the child or out of the room going back into soothe at intervals. It really just depends on what the parents are comfortable with and, again, how the child responds. Because, um, I will do like a full assessment and see how the parents feel and how the child responds to the sleep training. Um, but most of the time, like, being out of the room is better for the child yeah, and so how do we?
Peter:um, because that's, that's an interesting so. So there are two camps. I spoke to someone not that long ago which I think was a neonatal nurse and she said listen, babies, so very young babies, should not sleep through the night. Anyways, they should. You know, the really young ones. They need too much food and all that sort of stuff, so you need to. Even if they sleep for eight hours, their stomach can't hold enough food for eight hours. So they really, they really should. So so when you say, at four months old, just trying to start sleep training, what is your goal when you're actually trying to sleep train at four months old?
Missy:really good question because I think it's a huge misconception that parents and other professionals like I've spoken to a lot of professionals who are, you know, against sleep training because they think that it means that you're eliminating all feedings overnight, and that's not the goal at all. The goal is for the child to learn to self-soothe so that if they're not hungry, if they don't need a feeding, then they can put themselves back to sleep during the night. But I don't force anyone to cut feedings until they're comfortable or until their pediatrician or their primary doctor says look, your kid needs like their. Some kids will like learn to eat more overnight than during the day, and obviously that's not a good habit either. So I'm not teaching parents to completely cut feedings. I'm teaching them to teach their children to put themselves to sleep when they don't need to eat.
Missy:And then to touch on the other thing too about like that they shouldn't sleep through the night, like adults don't sleep through the night either. Like we all go through our sleep cycles and, whether we remember it or not, we wake in the middle of the night. Maybe we, you know, fix our blanket, flip our pillow, like. Whatever we do, that's just us cycling through sleep cycle and with babies who don't know how to self-soothe, they're waking up in that light sleep, going into a new sleep cycle, but they can't get themselves back to sleep because they don't have the skill. So really just teaching them that skill to fall back asleep without needing to be rocked to sleep every 45 minutes or every two hours or fed to sleep. Or I've seen, oh my gosh, the number of parents that I see like getting their kid back to sleep by bouncing on those exercise walls.
Missy:I'm like, oh my gosh, like it's a great workout, but in the middle of the night, let's just not. So yeah, just teaching them that independent skill.
Peter:So you're seeing, cause that's an interesting thing. You just said that a lot of parents I speak to view sleep training as passing the skill on to the parents. But you're seeing it as teaching a skill to the baby and that's a completely different mindset oh yeah, it is yeah, and it's I.
Missy:I mean, I relate it to every other milestone that babies reach. And then that's why I say like, at the age where parents are comfortable with teaching their kid, this skill is what's best for that specific family. Um, because I mean, some parents have to go back to work when their kid is six weeks old and you know, just like being awake 10 times a night which is like I see it all the time Like the kids are up four, eight, 10, 12 times a night and the parents are like I'm going to lose my job because my kid doesn't know how to do this. And yes, they are capable of learning things, just like they're capable of learning how to roll over and they're learning how to sit up. You wouldn't stop them from learning that skill. So why stop them from learning how to sleep when that's like the most important thing for them for so many developmental reasons?
Peter:yeah, no, absolutely. I mean people. I think we're now figuring out. I mean, I always knew for for babies that sleep was important, but we're now figuring out for everybody and it's significantly more important than I think most people used to think it was right. Yeah, it's always funny because when I see even new, new parents and I love making this comparison because people see it in dogs a lot right, so I know a lot of new parents that got a puppy right. They had a puppy before the child.
Peter:Usually no one is mad enough to get a baby and a puppy at the same time, but they usually have mad enough to get a baby and a puppy at the same time, but they usually have a puppy.
Peter:Let's say, they get a golden retriever, they get it as a puppy and they're like the dog needs to sleep for 16 to 18 hours a day and they accept this. This is just the way it is. They get a baby and all of a sudden, that rule tends to go out of the window a little bit, because we see babies and really young children as little humans and we see humans as the way you and I see each other, as in. We're rational, capable of making our own decisions and all of that rational, capable of making our own decisions, and all of that, whereas babies are significantly closer to puppies than they are to me Okay, I mean specifically because I'm almost 50 years old, but to say a teenager, the skill of allowing the baby to sleep when the baby needs to sleep, but having the baby really recognizing that the baby needs to be awake sometimes that's a much trickier one.
Missy:Yeah, yeah, yeah, sorry. I was just going to say, like the amount of sleep that newborns need and I mean, like you were saying, to like and being awake the whole, never wake a sleeping baby like oh no, we're gonna wake that baby Because those first eight weeks, when they really have no circadian rhythm and they're, you know, used to being lulled to sleep during the day while, you know, mom's walking in the womb is like nice and like you know, it's like a waterbed in there, and then they come out in the world and they need to flip that. Parents do need to wake their baby. They do need to try and keep them awake for at least 45 minutes, which I mean it doesn't sound like a lot, and once they feed the baby, change the diaper, you know, hang out with their kid a little bit then like they do have to sleep again and it really is more sleep than not in those first few months.
Missy:But just getting into those routines and just you know the first, that like first three months, like that fourth trimester, I'm like not strict about anything other than healing, getting to know your little human and having you know like that womb to world transition. Um. So there's like no rules about sleep other than making sure that they're focused on switching the day to night confusion and making sure that they're not sleeping too much during the day. So I do have people awake newborns every two hours right, well, that makes that makes complete sense.
Peter:So say, we start training. I'd say that four month old sort of stage. How much sleep should should we really be aiming for for the, the average baby? I know everybody's slightly different, but how much sleep should we roughly be aiming for?
Missy:Yeah. So at the four-month age I mean you definitely want 12 hours overnight and you want closer to four hours of sleep during the day. Naps are going to be a crapshoot, like I mean I tell everyone you know, up until they're six months old, naps are going to be hit or miss. They might be 25 minutes and they might be two hours and you might need to wake them and that's totally normal. So that's why I say like I like to train between four and six months because, like you can get great stretches at night, you can get that 12 hour stretch with only needing to, you know, get up to feed them if they need it.
Missy:And I have three kids and all three of them were sleeping through the night at different ages because of their needs with eating, but I still sleep. Train them between three and I mean three months out. I will like start with my own kids, but very gently and you know a little bit of a different story. But that four to six month age range with sleeping more through the night is going to be really helpful. But again, like the naps are going to be, like you may need to hold them for a nap and that's totally fine. After six months I'm like we are training those naps, because then they can really consolidate those naps. That's when parents are like I can't just hold them for two hours every single nap and I'm like okay, then let's not.
Peter:Yeah, because that is something that a lot of parents struggle with the baby baby is very comfortable lying on, let's say, mommy's shoulder it's usually mommy's shoulder, mommy's shoulder and as soon as she puts baby down anywhere else, the baby says no, I'm not having this, um, so how do we? I mean there's no avoiding, that is there. How, how, so how do we move away? Mean there's no avoiding, that is there. So how do we move away? How do we get baby to be comfortable just being put down?
Missy:Depending on how old they are. So, before they're showing signs of rolling, I will definitely say to swaddle. That's going to help and that's why they're so comfortable being held, because it's, you know, it's really dampening that moral reflex so they're not having that startle sensation as much when they're being held. So being swaddled is definitely something that I recommend, and then anything else that can replicate that womb feeling. So, having the white noise and having the room black out, dark, um, many people will say, oh well, don't I want my kid napping in the living room with lights and sounds and the TV on and all the things.
Missy:No, I do not agree, because that's not going to give your baby's brain the restoration and actual, you know, restorative sleep that it needs. Yeah, sure, they're going to get, you know they'll take the edge off and they won't be as tired and cranky and clingy. But you want them, in a perfect environment and atmosphere, to get the more restorative, better sleep that they actually need when you can, because sometimes they really just won't accept sleeping in a crib by themselves. But, um, for the younger kids, swaddling when they do start showing signs of rolling, then, um, transitioning to a sleep sack and then it just kind of gives them like that feeling of being, you know, somewhat contained yeah, so so it's again something interesting you said there, because I come across this a tremendous amount.
Peter:Then again, no judgment, right or for anyone. I'm asking this question. Just listen. Everybody just does the best they can, and you know at the end of the day, you know so. So I'm I'm not judging. When I say things like I have come across, I don't mean that in a pointy finger sort of way, everybody just does the best you can, but the the message that a woman, a lot of women, are given, you know, other than sleep, and the baby sleeps, which you know it's not feasible for everybody um is oh, the housework still needs to be done, right when, when you put the baby down, that's when you can do the hoovering, uh, or vacuuming, or whatever you call it.
Missy:Hoovering. I love that.
Peter:Yeah, which goes against everything you just said. Yeah, because it's loud. But you know, like I said, I'm almost 50. I'm on that nap stage myself, you know, sometimes on a Saturday afternoon, oh yeah.
Missy:For sure I'm having a nap.
Peter:If my wife were to turn the hoover on, I'm afraid I'd end up getting divorced. Do you know what I mean? I'm having a nap here. You're not hoovering Because it interrupts my sleep. Sleep for me is just a restorative sort of thing.
Missy:Oh yeah.
Peter:There's very little, as many people attest. There's very little brain activity happening with regards to connections being made, whereas for a baby it is much more important. Yeah, so we're not hoovering, I take it, and we're not doing the dishes and making a lot of noise when the baby is in the room, if we can help it right.
Missy:Yeah, hopefully the baby will be in the room and that's kind of why the white noise is very useful. Not only is it replicating the sound of the womb, but it's also blocking out noises going on in the house. So I like to like, as soon as the baby is old enough and the parents are comfortable enough with having the baby nap in their own room um, with the door shut, we always shut the door. That's, you know, my number one rule when it comes to fire safety we always shut the door. That's, you know, my number one rule when it comes to fire safety that the door needs to be shut.
Missy:The white noise is on, so they probably won't really be startled awake with doing dishes or laundry, vacuuming hard. No, for me that's like a great activity for when your baby's awake. Get a baby carrier, strap them to you and, you know, get to it and it really like it sounds crazy like talking about when they have a young baby and like learning like that. This is a part of life. But if you tiptoe like around cleaning and doing chores and household things when your kid is sleeping because you don't want to take away from like all that time, like you're not really doing them any favors.
Missy:So and I hear too a lot of like well, what am I supposed to do with this kid and? Um, you know I actually. So I have like a newborn course that has like six months of activities to do with your kids for different like tactile experiences, sensory experiences and and all those things with like baby activities but also like real human activities are great experiences for kids to see the world in different ways, no matter how old they are. When I like this is kind of a little side story, but I used to be a preschool teacher and I used to have to vacuum my own classroom at the end of the day and I had one student who was so terrified of the vacuum and I asked her mom I'm like, why, Like, why do you think she's so scared?
Missy:And she's like, well, she's never seen a vacuum before. It just looks like this loud big thing that's going to come at her. And I'm like, oh, so then this loud big thing that's gonna come at her. And I'm like, oh. So then I finally like talked to her and I'm telling the student I'm like this is just gonna clean our classroom floors like it's not gonna, it's not gonna eat you, it's not gonna get you. Like nothing scary is gonna happen, and she was three or four years old at the time and I'm like my mind was blown that she had never seen a vacuum before.
Peter:So do the thing while your kids are awake yeah, no, that's a good point, because you do want to, indeed, acclimatize them to the real world.
Missy:Right, you are yeah you're on because eventually yeah, you're gonna have a five-year-old that you want to help do the chores and they're not gonna know what's going on.
Peter:And speaking from experience well, yeah, to be fair, most five-year-olds don't really want to do anything you got to get them doing the chores when they want to help.
Missy:Toddlers love helping.
Peter:Yeah, get them a little knife and do the cooking and help with right.
Missy:Rather than you go tidy up, do it with the more you include them, the more they're going to be willing, Like the more that you have toddlers helping with you know, making meals and switching laundry and doing all the things like they're just going to be better, like more well-rounded people.
Peter:Oh, yeah, I'm sure. So in in the again, there's something interesting you mentioned there. You know you get, when, when, when the child is awake, you do loads of stuff around the house. You get them to help out and all that sort of stuff. Like you said, the.
Peter:I know a lot of people that take their kids to like those sensory classes. You know, like you said, linda is in tactile and nice lights and music and all that sort of stuff, and they don't necessarily, indeed, include them with the stuff in the house. So we are very good at, or we've become very good at, monetizing experience. Right, we've become awesome at that, especially in the us and and in the uk. I know a lot of my listeners are listening in china and they'll be listening to me like nah, you guys are all idiots. Yeah, because they don't do that. It's indeed, it's like you said. No, you're getting to help out around the house. That's where you have noise and lights and all that sort of stuff. Um, Because it is something that a lot of people tend to forget about. Everything we do with a little one is a new experience for them and it builds experience for them.
Missy:Yeah, and I think there's this whole information era that we're in. There's just so much information on the internet good, bad or otherwise telling parents that your kid needs to be in a music class, your kid needs to go to this play place. Your kid needs to go, you know, like they need to do X, y, z. So parents are getting overwhelmed with everything that they're seeing on the internet that their kids need to do, but they're also there isn't a whole lot of information on the internet saying your kid is totally fine, just living the life like normal, regular life, doing regular human things. And it does start at any age and like every single age. Like you know, like vacuuming the house with your baby and a baby carrier, or having your toddler they have, you know like those little um, like mini vacuums, and like those cleaning sets, have your kid do it side by side with you.
Missy:And like the same goes with like working out. Like my kids will see me work out they came to the gym with me this morning because they had no school and like having them be a part of all the things that parents think is like no, this is just an adult thing. But like is it? Or like you have families that don't want to bring their kids to restaurants, or bringing them to restaurants, um, and putting like a ipad or something in front of them, but like no, let's stop doing that. Like bring them to the places and teach them how to behave. Like oh, there's like, that's like a whole, that's a whole nother story, another conversation. Because like there's just so much protection of like the real world, because parents are thinking like oh, my kid needs to do like all this, like sensory stuff and all these like toddler classes, but I mean like they're great, but there's more.
Peter:There's more to life yeah, and also I mean I don't know for anybody listening to this, but it's most of these because what we assume when we take kids to toddler classes and all that sort of sort of in sensory classes is that a lot of these things are specifically designed by experts to maximize whatever experience for your baby. And let's be honest, you and I probably know most of them are not. Most of them are just some lights and a little bit of music and you know and touch random stuff and there is nothing special about them other than it's a great place to meet people and you know the social element is huge.
Peter:You should definitely do these things. I'm not saying to not do them, but not doing like, like you said, not taking kids to restaurants and all that sort of stuff. And I completely get it because you think not taking kids on flights, you know the age. I don't want to. I don't want to inflict my child upon. It's fine, most people are. If I sit in a restaurant and it's not just because I do a lot of postpartum stuff and baby noise is like white noise to me now but yeah it's if I sit there, I'm not going to get upset with a child that is having a moment.
Peter:Yeah, I get upset with a 14 year old that doesn't know how to behave. Yeah, right, and that is. That is what, what the difference is, and it's like you said, with guys exercise. I see this with all of my, all of my clients and members. It's monkey, see, monkey do yep always. Yeah, the kids look at their parents and they see they do the hoovering, they do the cleaning, the they do. They go to the gym, they go to restaurants and this is how they behave and therefore, this is how I'll behave.
Missy:Yeah, 100%.
Peter:Every little person wants to be like their parents, right. Until 12 or 13 years old yeah.
Missy:Until they realize we're not cool. But I swear I'm still cool.
Peter:I promise, I promise I'm still cool yeah.
Missy:I think, yeah, like just even managing expectations for parents in every aspect of having a child and just knowing like, ok, well, yeah, we're going to go to this class.
Missy:But like, so I actually I do teach a music and movement class and I tell parents on day one your child is not learning, you know, we're not learning about classical composers and all this stuff, like, if you want that go somewhere else like this is their first introduction to structure and a class, and like nine times out of ten, the parents who are signing up for these classes are also signing up for other classes, and I'm like make a friend, like stay after class and like go play on the playground or like do something, like socialize, because that's what these kids need right now. They need to socialize, they need to learn how to be in groups with people, and that's what's important yeah, no, that is huge.
Peter:I was. I was still dealing um with postpartum people during the whole covid section.
Peter:You know you'll have lived through that, especially in in new york and here in the uk all that stuff shut down, right, all your your dance classes and socialization classes shut down, and every single one of so. In the uk it opened up in a weird way so I could train people outdoors and all that sort of stuff for a month. So when the weather was nice we could do an outdoor and I only do one-on-one stuff. So, um, but the indoor stuff, the all the other kids stuff, that was all shot, yeah, and and the impact that that had on the socialization of of these little, of these little kids was huge, yeah. So that does show us that you know okay, not going to get into the how do you deal with that sort of trauma recovery thing, but it does show us how important these classes really are yeah um, it just probably shouldn't be like you said, the, the, they shouldn't come to your class and then be quiet in the house, no matter what oh yeah, for
Peter:sure. So back to the, the, the sleep training a little bit. So, because how long would expect someone who is a child, who is four months, actually be able to um, to sleep because you, because you said in an ideal world we want to get a 12-hour stretch in, let's say, I know, seven to seven or something like that. Yep, how, how many nighttime feeds would be normal for for parents to expect? One or two, or is it one?
Missy:to two generally, um, and I actually all of my clients. I have them speak to their pediatrician because I'm not a feeding specialist, so I you know, like I don't know, I don't. Most of the time I don't even see what the kid looks like, so I don't know how big the kid.
Missy:Like I'll ask them like how much does your kid weigh? And that may give me a little bit of an idea. Like around that 13, 14 pound mark is generally when pediatricians are telling parents like they can sleep through the night without a feeding. But it really depends on the child's size, their growth curve and whether they were premature or not. But around four months I generally will say one to two feedings a night and they can go between four to six hours from the last feeding and they can learn to independently connect their sleep cycles from bedtime, like, let's say, bedtimes at seven, and maybe they wake up around midnight and they do need a feeding. Fine, feed your kid and put them back to bed. No one's saying don't feed them, but then they can come back to their sleep cycles again until maybe four, five am, have another feeding and then go back to bed until seven. Um, so that's I mean it's definitely possible and that's generally what happens with most of my clients yeah, yeah, because obviously, like, like you said, I'm not, I'm anyone listening to this.
Peter:I know you're not silly enough to do this. Don't just listen to people on a podcast and then go. Well, this is how I'll do it from now on. Right, there's a little bit more of a speak to your gp and all that type of yeah, type of stuff yeah much like yourself. I always tell people listen, I'm awesome with putting programs together, but if I haven't seen you then you do need to. In an ideal world, you get checked out first, yeah.
Peter:Yeah, for sure, yeah, if I'm in a room with you, it's a different beast altogether, but if I'm not in a room, this is all stuff that works for 90% of people. Right, that's, that's kind of what I always what I was saying. So it's the. If we're putting the child down at, say, seven o'clock and all that sort of stuff, how do we, how do you actually recommend most people put their kids down, cause you know it's a a whole? Are we waiting for the child to almost be asleep? Are we, are we just putting them down awake was one of those phases for a while. Just, you know, for the kid in the crib and just be good luck with this. You know that type of thing, or what. How do you recommend what? What do you usually find easiest for for your I mean timing is everything.
Missy:So making sure that their wake windows throughout the day are appropriate for the child's age, um, making sure they're not already overtired, because an overtired baby is not going to self-soothe. So that is so important when sleep training, but so are routines, having a proper bedtime routine. What I generally have parents do is do the feeding first, having the baby in a diaper only so they can have that skin to skin time. And, um, when they're not, you know, wrapped up in their pajamas and their swaddle or their sleep sack, they're not going to fall asleep while feeding, hopefully. And if they do what you know, we're not going to fall asleep while feeding, hopefully. And if they do, we're trying to arouse them so that they are awake.
Missy:So I have them do the feeding first and then, depending on the parent's preference I love a good old infant massage having whether it's lotion or just nothing at all. Also, depending on the kid's age you don't want to put too much stuff on their skin and then getting them into their pajamas and their sleep sack, and then you're going to have some either book time, singing songs together, that like face-to-face time before they're going to sleep, so they're still awake. You're having that bonding time together and then we're turning off the lights, then we're turning on the white noise and you're still having that cuddling, rocking time, getting them nice and drowsy and adjusted. This is like one of the things that a lot of people don't think about Like like OK, we're going to turn off the lights, drop the kid in the crib and then run.
Missy:Like no turn off the lights and help your kid acclimate. Like remember the crib and then run like no. Like turn off the lights and help your kid acclimate, like remember, like I remember being a little kid turning off the lights and being like I can't yeah, for sure and you'll notice too, like there's some babies and that's the cutest thing.
Missy:You'll turn off the lights and their eyes will get really wide and you just like, if you have that five minutes to help them acclimate, rock with them, talk about the day, like no, they're not talking back to you. You might feel like a little bit foolish by you know talking and narrating all the things that you've done, but it's so important having that time between turning off the lights, turning on the white noise, having a little bit of time acclimate to the darkness. Then lay the baby down gently in the crib. I always say lay them down like butt first, butt back head, so that they're not feeling like they're falling. And you know, like, lean into the crib, like be connected until you can't reach anymore. You know, and I'm only five, I'm five one.
Missy:So when my kids were like on, like the lower setting with the mattress, and I'm like leaning in, I'm like, okay, I can't reach you anymore, like I'm putting their butt down first and then slowly putting them down and then you're going to step back.
Missy:You don't like they don't need to see you, they don't need to be, you know, held and rocked to sleep, but you do want them awake. They can be drowsy, but they need to be awake and they need to be aware, like that's my big thing is like whether somebody is saying drowsy, drowsy but awake, or if they're awake and you're putting them in the crib, like they just need to be aware, they need to know that they're falling asleep in the crib, because that's when, if they're falling asleep in your arms and you transfer them to the crib and they wake up and freak out, it's because they fell asleep in your arms in this nice, warm, cozy, familiar place and they wake up in a crib that they don't spend a lot of time in. So to acclimate to the crib, they need to fall asleep in the crib yeah, so it's like with, with, uh, with, um.
Peter:Adults, you want to associate bed with sleeping. It's the same for baby, it means sleepy time, and indeed the whole mommy has abandoned me right when I was I was asleep and now mommy's gone, and you know what that?
Missy:yeah on an instinctive level yeah, like to acclimate a baby to sleeping in the crib and accepting it. Sometimes you do have to have a couple days where you spend 15-20 minutes playing in the crib or just you know, like laying looking up in a mobile or like putting toys around them, while maybe mom or dad's like putting laundry away in the baby's room or you know whatever they're doing, but the parent is in the room with the child and the child is spending time in the crib for like 15 minutes, like they're not trying to fall asleep, like they're in a good mood, there's no stress and it's hey, this is like. This is a good, comfortable place.
Missy:And I remember one of my first clients had a four month old and she was like she is never going to fall asleep in the crib. I don't care what you say to me, it's never going to happen. And I'm like okay, you know your kid best, just do a little bit of playtime in the crib. And you know what she said after the first time playing in the crib, she goes. I was just putting laundry away and I turned around and she was sleeping. Never a peep of crying, nothing. She just like she fell asleep in the crib and I'm like, but I thought you said she was never going to do it.
Peter:Yeah, that's a genuine thing. Of course, the fear and and we instill this in in mothers to be quite often right, the, the, the fear when you tell them your baby will never sleep, you should never leave your baby alone. That type of you know the dingo ate my baby, type sort of thing. The crib is where horrible things happen to babies if you're not very, very careful, whereas those things are statistically all so ridiculously unlikely. But it does mean a lot of that.
Missy:It's very easy to fall into the trap of I'll just lie on the sofa with the baby on my chest and we'll just both sleep like this together, um which again understandable and maybe actually quite a nice thing to do, but for sleep training it's probably not ideal nope, um, I actually require that my clients aren't doing such things, not not only for, you know, the baby safety, my own liability reasons, you know, if anything were to happen, you know, you know, I've just heard so many horror stories that like, once we're in it, we are in it and we're not doing that anymore.
Missy:Like yes, maybe it's great, but like if a parent feels like they're going to doze off, you need to put your kid in the crib. Not only are like any deep, like deviating from the sleep training plan is just going to set the baby back at square one and you just kind of think like well, is that really fair to the baby? Like I'm trying to teach them this new skill, but I'm tired and I want to fall asleep on the sofa with the kid. No, we're not.
Peter:nope, we're done and and to be fair, because I know a lot of women will be listening to this and say I never do this. Check your husband. Yes, how many pictures do I see? And also, I mean, I'm a boy and therefore, by definition, as I always, I'm a boy and therefore, by definition, as I always say, I'm a jackass, because it's in our genes. We don't even mean to be, but sometimes you know the amount of pictures I see on social media of isn't that cute Daddy fell asleep on the sofa with baby there. Listen, I'm sure it's adorable and I'm sure daddy had a hard week.
Peter:And I if your baby loves to sleep close to daddy and all of a sudden it's all warm and comfy, but it's probably less than ideal right, yeah, and men sleep deeper than women, so yeah, yeah, we, we don't have that instinctive right, and just the stories that I've heard of.
Missy:Well, you know, like we just fell asleep and then dad rolled over and the baby fell off.
Peter:Yeah.
Missy:Or, like you know, the baby fell in between like dad and the armchair, like the arm of the sofa or whatever it is. It just like you just have to think to yourself like is it really worth that cute picture, that cute moment? Like go ahead and hold your kid, but stay awake.
Peter:Yeah, no, that makes complete sense Because you know again, I'll say it again you know how guilty you feel when your puppy falls off the sofa. Yeah, For anyone listening, that's a lot worse when it's your baby.
Missy:Sure is yeah. And a lot of times I'll hear like parents will have the baby, like they'll hold the baby to sleep and then they'll want to get up to do something, and then they'll just lay the baby on the sofa or the side of the bed or something and they'll say, well, you know it's been fine, but in the past, so it's still fine. Don't wait until it's not fine, because guess what?
Peter:like your baby is probably going to roll over for the first time when you're not looking, yep, always, always. And you know you have nice parquet flooring and all that stuff.
Missy:That stuff is hard and I mean, like we've all been through moments where you know, we think that something is okay and then we realized that maybe it wasn't the safest thing. You know, maybe the kid fell off a ledge of something.
Missy:I'm like I, I've been there too, you know like I've got three kids and they're all. I had them all in three years, so they're very close in age. So there have been moments where you know like one kid needs something. So I set one kid somewhere and I think they're fine, and then they end up on the other side of the room and I'm like I didn't know you could do that yeah, yeah, little ninjas yeah yeah. So yeah, just kind of like having that their safety in in mind always yeah, it's always one of those things and this accident will happen.
Peter:You just don't have to go looking for them, right? And it's kind of that it's, it's kind of that's, that's. You know I'm of a very different generation from yourself that we were neglected as children, compared to now. We were just mommy went to the shop because baby's asleep anyways, right, and of course the doors were open because the neighbors could walk in easily and all that sort of stuff and you know I said it's a little bit of survivor's bias, because then you always get the well, I'm 50. I'm fine, I survived.
Missy:Oh my gosh, I actually I've had conversations with grandparents.
Peter:Oh yeah.
Missy:Yeah, yeah, who are like well, this is what I did with my child and they're fine and like why do you think that your ways are? Better than my ways and you're going to tell my daughter that my grandchild needs to do X, Y, Z and I'm like, um, you're not the one that hired me.
Peter:Like cause I get it.
Missy:I mean, I like I feel like I'm kind of in the in between, where my parents were, like go outside and play and come back when it's dark out, yeah, and like now it's like helicopters everywhere, like helicopter parents, and I'm like wait, yeah, it has to be an organized activity now, otherwise you can't go. Oh, I can't, I just I can't handle it.
Peter:But it is indeed. That's a really good point you brought up, because I did an interview a long time ago with wang ming whitley about the chinese habit of sitting the month. So basically do nothing for 30 days other than bond with the baby, and that means no cooking them, nothing, everything is taken care of. It's a wonderful. I love that stuff, right, I'm a huge fan of that sort of thing, uh, because it gives the, the mother, an awful lot of bonding time and it removes a lot of stress and it's all about healing and the baby is amazing. But she said she was as a consultant for that episode. She's usually the person in the middle, so she just she always tells and I'm sure that's what you're finding that that the mother hires you. And how often do you have conversations? Because I have a regularly conversations with grandparents, where you're, where you are kind of like the buffer, where you're saying once in a while.
Missy:It's probably not as common for me, unless the parent is involved in child care and naps right, yes, so most of the time, um, the parents will go through the sleep plan with the grandparents and I tell them like here's my number, here's my email address. If they have any issues with it, you know like they can reach out to me. Um, sometimes they're like on the calls and are asking questions, but it's not like, once in a while, I have a hostile grandparent.
Peter:That's like I don't think so, um, but it's not as often for me well, that's good and I think that, again, that is also very much a generational. Uh, yeah, the, the women you work with, are, let's say, a lot more independent, outspoken after I think so yeah after what their wishes are.
Peter:Of course, I remember from, like I said, I'm 50. So 20 years ago, I don't think there were many sleep training consultants. No, the only people we had to listen to were our parents and our grandparents and all that sort of stuff. And they're not professional At the end of the day, they don't do this stuff all the time, they just think they remember what they did a long time ago. Yeah, because they're not 100? Sure, because you know, my memory is shocking and I'm only 50. If I'm 70, I can't remember anything anymore. I'll be right, that is just the way it goes.
Peter:Well, so I saw that you were talking about infant massage and all that sort of stuff. I saw you have a ton of stuff on your website, which is, you know, I looked at a ton of guides on your website. Yes, what sort of things would you say either? Okay, so we have the, the. Sorry, I meant to finish that sentence. See, this is my old man. So, so you have the guide to infant massage on on your website. I have a ton of other stuff. What are the top three things that you? Because people will go to your website after this and you're like okay, these are the top three things that people would benefit from the most when they're thinking of starting sleep training. And if yeah, now you'll have to open up your website. Sorry, that's what happens when you have automatic playing videos.
Missy:ladies and gentlemen, I'm sorry.
Peter:That's what happens when you have automatic playing videos. Ladies and gentlemen, that's right. Oh, so, so you have. You know, you have a lot of stuff on there. What are the top three tips that you would?
Missy:have.
Peter:Yeah, it's amazing, it's a, it's a tremendous website, but it's what? Top three things would be your tips. Okay, so I sort of have to get the guide to infant massage, because you mentioned that this is a good way to start. Yes, two tips or things that you like. Actually, guys, if you're looking at yourself for something, this is what you could do with.
Missy:Yeah, so on the guides page there's like the very first one on there Five steps to better sleep without sleep training. That's like the basic. You know you got to have the right environment, you got to have the right timing, stuff like that. That's before sleep training, before teaching those independent sleep skills, things that need to be in place. So that's definitely one.
Peter:And it's free, ladies and gentlemen.
Missy:And that is free. Yes, and I do like to have a very good balance of free resources for families and my paid one-on-one, the Guide to Infant Massage, for sure, and then Then just a tip for parents Because those two things?
Peter:because they haven't even spent 10 bucks yet, right, Because the massage is only like $10. And you know it's much like yourself. Which is why I really like your page and why I wanted to have you on is because affordability is everything right, yeah for sure, because a lot of this stuff.
Peter:You'll have seen this with your competitors or other colleagues in the industry, whatever you want to call them. They'll sell some of these things for like a hundred bucks, Because if your target is a certain, let's say, demographic, then you can charge them the world, but it does mean that you don't. You don't provide a service to the majority of people, to 95% of people who actually really, really need it. Um so, and like I said, so, the, the, the sleep massage one that was only like nine, 99 or something like that, and I've seen them advertised for a lot more than that.
Missy:A lot more yeah.
Peter:A lot more yeah.
Missy:I think, like the guides, part of it is like it really should be accessible to everyone everywhere. And then if that level of knowledge and education is not enough, then I say, like you know, check out the actual one-on-one packages, which are quite a bit more money, but they're getting two full weeks of support with a whole customized plan that's like specific for their family. But I think like the number one thing that parents kind of forget is consistency, and I say it all the time. I really should just get it tattooed somewhere like consistency, because it's like the one word that I have like on repeat, and I mean, you see that I also like offer potty training services, and it's like it's the same. It's the same with that too, you know having a plan and being consistent.
Peter:Because that's all part of the same family, I suppose, isn't it? Potty training and sleep training and all that?
Missy:sort of stuff.
Peter:It is all about you know, I don't know about you people, and again I'll repeat it here Middle-agedaged white guy, I can't go to sleep properly until I've been to the toilet, right, yeah, this is just, I'm at that age, right?
Peter:So your baby isn't going to be either, uh, and you know, it can happen in a diaper, sure, unless you, of course, want to make it a little bit easier and a little bit less messy for yourself and all this other stuff. Um, so I think it makes complete sense to have that in one sort of, to have one point of contact. I, I, I'm a big fan of what I call the broadband bundle of, of of research. You have one point of contact for who knows you, who knows your family, who knows your baby, and can say, okay, we know where we are with sleep, hey, and we know where we are with sleep, hey, and this is where we are with potty training, rather than having to work with two or three different different people. Uh, because it does, it makes it a bit more then. Then you spend half your like introduction call or whatever it is, yeah, just introducing yourself, yeah, right, oh, yeah, I can't even tell you how many people like I'll sleep train their baby at like six to eight months old or something.
Missy:And then they'll come to me a couple years later and they're like all right time to potty train. I, like you, did a great job with the sleep training. Now here, take my money and do the potty training because, because it's a lot easier that way it is, yeah, and like I already know them and half the time, like what, your kid is already of potty training age. I feel like I just worked with you yesterday.
Peter:Yeah, because time flies when you're having fun. For sure, so cool. We touched on quite a lot of stuff. Was there anything else that you think? Hey, Pete, you missed this.
Missy:I think maybe just you know. A word of encouragement for parents who are struggling or questioning if they're doing a good enough job.
Peter:And I tell every single person like, get off of the Facebook groups. Yeah.
Missy:It's just, yeah, like it's not. It's just not conducive to like the mental health of being a new parent and having. You know, like, if parents have questions about things like whether it's me or somebody else, like find a professional that you trust with your baby and your family and you know, like your philosophy on parenting, because the minute that you put something out there on Facebook, you're going to get 50,000 different responses with different philosophies and it's just going to become more overwhelming. So, um, you know, like, trust your gut, ask for professional help from somebody that you trust and you know, stay consistent and have a plan.
Peter:Yeah, no, that's absolutely right. I mean, I'm huge, I despise facebook. Yeah, um, I tell everybody, facebook support groups are for support. That's what they are for. In the same way, for information, not information. If I'm, if I'm in a hospital ward, I don't expect other patients with a broken leg to tell me how to heal my broken leg I asked. I asked the guy or the woman in the white coat with the stethoscope who's?
Missy:in medical school right.
Peter:Yeah, um, facebook can be very tempting, especially with things like sleep training and all that sort of sort of stuff. Where there's this old, it's all a bit vague, it's very easy to say this is right, that is wrong, right. Like you said, everybody has an opinion. So, yeah, stay clear of that right. On that happy, happy note, I will press stop record here, and press stop record is exactly what I did.
Peter:Thanks so much to missy for coming on. I mean, I absolutely love that conversation. She very kindly gave up 45 minutes of her time and absolutely, I think I think we can all agree that she crushed it right, right, it was a delight the time flew past. You can find her at slumberandbloomcom. Obviously, I will link to absolutely everything we discussed, including a website. Definitely start following her. I think she is one of those people. I say this every week, but I don't like let people come onto the podcast if I think they're terrible. Let people come onto the podcast if I think they're terrible, right. So I think she's one of those people.
Peter:If you're looking for sleep training consultants and sleep training advice, missy's website is absolutely awesome, so definitely check that out. New bit of music, obviously, by the way, peterhealthypostnatalbodycom. If you have any subjects you'd like me to discuss or any people you'd like me to try and talk to, then you know, give me a shout, right? That's what I am here for. New bit of music now. You have an awesome week Next week. By the way I'm doing I almost forgot, I almost forgot what am I doing next week. Oh, I am talking doulas next week. You're going to love that interview. You're going to love that interview. You're going to love that interview. Doulas, the use of doulas, how beneficial they are, how you can become a doula, doula training and all that sort of stuff. You're going to love that conversation. Like I said, but for now, I'll be back next week.
Missy:Bye now, I'm sorry. Thank you. I'm going to use the same color as the first one. I'm going to use the same color as the first one. I'm going to use the same color as the first one. I'm going to use the same color as the first one. I'm going to use the same color as the first one. I'm going to use the same color as the first one. I'm going to use the same color as the first one. I'm going to use the same color as the first one. I'm going to use the same color as the first one. Thank you.