Welcome to the Hair of the Dog podcast. I'm your host, Heather Lahtinen, and I'm back this week sharing another installment of our offline photographer challenge. In case you missed it, I introduced this concept in episode 219, but essentially it's a series of challenges that we are hosting inside of our Elevate program to help photographers connect, engage, and thrive within their local communities.
These tasks are carefully crafted to supercharge your in-person marketing strategies because we know just how crucial in-person engagement is for your business growth. In today's conversation, I'm talking once again with Laura WellWell as she shares how she connected with a local vet clinic and what it looks like to define a clear goal when working with partners and how to set appropriate expectations. She contrasts this with a relationship that is not going well,
and we explore why setting expectations does not make you a mean bad or otherwise nasty person. I hope that you enjoy our conversation. Welcome to the Hair of the Dog podcast. If you are a pet photographer ready to make more money and start living a life by your design, you've come to the right place. And now your host pet photographer, travel addict,
chocolate martini connoisseur, Nicole Begley. Welcome back Laura. Thank you so much for being here. Let's do a recap on the November offline photographer challenge. We were talking about meeting people, strangers on the street and telling them, you know, what you do, maybe developing a relationship, but you, you once again took a slightly different spin on this and you built a relationship.
Tell us about that. Yeah, so I was lucky enough to have a mutual friend who works at our veterinary clinic. So Guelph has one of the sort of foremost vet clinics in the Canada, I guess. And so my friend G connected me with the social worker who works there, and we ended up having a really great Zoom call and we basically just chatted about end of life sessions,
how she deals with her clients and talking them through different difficult situations. And then we had really like sort of similar outlooks on, on, you know, end of life, like I worked in my previous life, I worked in a funeral home. So we talked a lot about that and how we often hear a lot about processing grief about when humans pass,
but not about our pets. You know, there aren't as many pet grief resources as there are human resources. We don't do pre-planning for the loss of our pets, right? So we got to talking about all of that and it ended up being fabulous. She was like, I absolutely want to, you know, put your flyers in the clinic. I'd love to get together again and sort of talk about all this stuff.
And then she wanted to send me some grief resources that I can share with my clients, which was just fabulous. And they're a clinic that I really, really would love to just get a foot in the door. Yes, because these are, you know, these are the folks who are, you know, coming from all over to, you know,
the OVC is kind of their last resort usually. So these are absolutely the clients that I wanna be serving for end of life sessions. So I think this could be a really great relationship moving forward. Forward. Oh my gosh, it's so awesome that you had this connection. And then so how, so you were introduced mutual friend, and you're talking on Zoom,
right? You said you had a, yeah. So then how did you like get into like, how can I help you or like, what value can I bring and what did that look like? So it started off, she just kind of wanted to pick my brain about what I do. And I think this is one of those things that we forget when we're in the photography world that we think everyone knows.
Like, oh, a pet photography's a thing, not everyone knows still. So she was just like, oh, I'm, I'm so fascinated by the idea that you like, you know, do these end of life sessions. And I was like, yeah, and, and we just, we were really sort of on the same page about the language that you use with folks who are facing a bad diagnosis or who are in that situation.
And, and she just kind of wanted to ask a bunch of questions about how I structure what I do. And then I was like, well, what do you do? Right? And, and it was just a fabulous conversation. I think we're gonna go out for coffee in the new year, and so I think it will turn into, even though it was a Zoom meeting,
I think it will hopefully turn into like an, an ongoing partnership of sorts. Yeah, that's amazing. So the first step is you're gonna get some flyers there and what, what does that look like? What are the, what are you gonna have on those? Like, what are your plans? So she actually was like, if you wanna send those over to me,
I can take, make sure that, you know, it's tactful and, and all of that. Yes. So I have a flyer mocked up, which is basically, it's like a postcard style, and the front just is a lovely picture of someone and their pet from an end of life session that I did. And then the back ba basically, I,
I didn't want it to be any kind of like, you know, a discount or a, you know, anything sort of slick. It's basically just four different images. And one is like, we can meet in your home or in a place that's special to your pet. And then we book at a moment's notice for these sessions. The main goal is your pet's comfort,
safety, and happiness. And then artwork options to, you know, give you a smile for a lifetime. Oh my gosh, that's beautiful. I love that so much. So do you think she would also maybe benefit from artwork on the walls? Is that possible? That is something that I would love to discuss further. I know that having brought my own pets to their clinic in the past,
like there isn't a lot on their walls there. So potentially talking about that maybe the next time we meet, because I have done this in the past with our Humane Society, I have tons of artwork up on their walls and basically just donated the prints and they found their own frames and put up little placards that are like, this is Laura's. So,
so that's something that I would love to do. I have another friend who works for the fundraising arm of that clinic. So I think there are a few different ways I can go about trying to have physical artwork in the place as well. I love it. I love it. So you are just, you're creating these connections, developing and nurturing these relationships so that,
like Laura is part of the clinic, like, you know, this reminds me of my relationship with my local camera store. You know, I go there because I want my name to be associated with the camera store because obviously photographers are there so I can meet people. So this is like a similar kind of situation where like you would be Like, Here's,
here's why I am like heading down this path is because I think that meeting someone dropping off flyers or putting Waller up is not enough. Hmm. I think it's the start of developing a relationship over time where you work together and maybe they actually even start referring people to you. Like she says, Hey, you should call my friend Laura, because, you know,
I mean, that would be fantastic to be able to get clients from that. Because I'm curious, with the Humane Society, you had some wall art. Did that, did that end up with inquiries? No, no, no. Interesting. It's, I, when they have like, you know, corporate clients that come on tour, they always make a point of pointing out like,
oh, this is a local photographer. And sometimes they have me there photographing the tour and whatnot. But in general, the Humane Society is, is great about reaching out to me for my labor, but not super great about promoting me. And we're actually meeting this afternoon for lunch because I was a little bit stern with them and said, Hey, you're really great about taking advantage of my labor,
but not promoting me. So that is something that is happening today. I was gonna ask you where you think the disconnect is. So the, obviously the wall art is beautiful, I'm sure it's on the walls, people see it, but there's no exchange of information or they just don't think about it. I mean, what do you think's going on?
I think when we're dealing with organizations as opposed to like private clients, I think there's a lot of expectation management that needs to get done. And with the Humane Society, I've been through a whole bunch of different teams over the years. I've been photographing for them for eight plus years now. And some of the relationships have been fabulous. This most recent one has been a little bit more challenging.
And I think it's partly because the, the way that they've used me in the past hasn't gotten past down from team to team. What the way that I kind of conceptualize it now is when you're dealing with an organization, you can be a sponsor, you can be a paid subcontractor, or you can be a volunteer. And I'm fine with being the first two things because if I'm a sponsor,
I'm getting credit, I'm creating Goodwill in the community, and my name is getting attached to an organization that people like and trust. If I'm a subcontractor, I'm getting paid for my work. And we have an agreement about how that work is to be used. If I'm a volunteer, it means I don't get credit and I don't get paid. Yeah,
No, thank you. Okay. Sometimes that's appropriate, but yes. But, but in general, like me, Laura, the person is like, oh yeah, but I just wanna, you know, help the animals and that's fine. But Laura, the CEO has to be like, no, there's nothing in that for your business. And so you have to draw a line.
Oh my God. Which is hard, but like boundaries are my 2024 goal. Is that right? Yeah. So well, like you said, setting the expectations, I think, I've never, I've never heard you talk about about it this way. And I love this, I actually wrote it down. So there's sponsor, subcontractor, or volunteer, and you need to decide ahead of time going into the relationship what you want to establish and make it very clear through your expectations.
And you know, and maybe, maybe, I mean, we'd ever be appropriate to have like a contract. Yeah. So I have had like written agreements with previous teams at the Humane Society and, and again, like I just don't think it got passed along. If I were to do something like that with the veterinary clinic, I think depending on how that partnership looks,
I would absolutely wanna have something in place, especially if they ended up using any of my images for marketing, which is what the Humane Society is doing. So making sure to just have it be really clear, like, what are you allowed to do? What am I allowed to do? What is the benefit to both of us? Because when that's not clearly laid out,
it, it just gets muddy and confusing and difficult and that's not what anyone wants. Yeah. No. And you probably start to feel a little resentful because they're not promoting you or marketing you and it was part of the deal, but like you said, it didn't get passed down. So I think, I mean, you tell me what you think going into this new relationship,
you were able to set yourself up for more success based on what you've learned from the past. Yes. And this is one of those areas. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. And I think I'm gonna carry this sort of approach into all of my relationships with rescues. 'cause I work with a lot of independent rescues as well. Most of them are absolutely fabulous.
And we have a very good sponsor relationship. And I think just clarifying that with everyone that I work with is just gonna help moving forward. You go as far as to like explain these three roles and what you're hoping Yeah. So they understand the difference. Yeah. Yeah. I, I think that is absolutely important. And I think it's something that I can do in like a,
a nice, tactful, gentle way. Yes. But I think part of where the breakdown with the Humane Society might be is that they are just lumping it all in together and not seeing that for me, there's definitely a distinction in how I'm being treated and the benefit or the lack of benefit to my business in the way that the relationship is currently working.
Do you feel like they're taking advantage of you? Yeah. Oh yeah. Oh gosh. Okay. So you need to make it clear or, or would, would it be appropriate like to part ways if it gets to that? I mean, what are your thoughts? I, so I've, I've been doing a lot of soul searching about this, and I think I have to be willing to walk away because at the end of the day,
it doesn't bring me any paid work. It used to be. So I used to sponsor a number of their fundraising initiatives and then was also a paid co subcontractor for their marketing material. And then we could both use the images in our own promotion. This current team did not want to use me as a subcontractor, which is fine, but they also didn't wanna credit me as a sponsor.
So I think clarifying that is important and saying, well, if I'm a volunteer, these images are still mine and I can use them and you can't ask me to take them down, which recently happened. And you can't ask for like one to two day turnovers because if I'm not being paid slash being credited, you are not my priority. And there's a part of my brain that's like,
oh, but they're the big humane society in town. And if there are people who aren't like in the rescue world, they at least know who the Humane Society is. So there's this, you know, prestige about being their photographer. And I was talking to Karen Black who used to be in that elevate, and she was like, Laura, that prestige is in your head.
I love that. That's Not, that's not real prestige, right? Like, it's not doing anything for you. So if the relationship can continues to not serve a purpose for my business, then I can decide as a human being if I want to volunteer for them. Right, right. Yeah. But the business will not be volunteering for them. I love that you've become really,
it seems like decisive in this area where you're like, what's the point if I'm not able to, if I'm not gonna get clients and I'm not gonna get paid. Like what is the point? Unless I choose to volunteer, like you said, then I, you know, I think it's really important for photographers when they're starting or they're gonna embark on this type of journey that they define what their goal is.
Like, is the goal to meet people, dogs in the background are welcome here, pet photography. So funny. I mean like, so is the goal to, you know, market your business? Is the goal to make money, is the goal to get exposed? Like what did, to get clients, like what does that look like? Getting really clear and defining the goal ahead of time,
going into your first meeting or nurturing this relationship, understanding that you either want to be a sponsor or subcontractor or a volunteer, but you're very clear on that and you can articulate it in a way that they are, you know, it's like very clear, you know, this is what we're going to do or not. You know what else I, like you said,
you said, I'm willing to risk the relationship because at the end of the day, if it's all work and it's not getting me any clients or and doing anything, what's the point? So that has to feel good. It does, it, it's difficult because setting boundaries is something that I am learning and working on. And something historically that has been really difficult for me.
I think on our, the last strategy and alignment call, I talked about how, you know, I, I, I struggle with wanting everyone to like me and wanting to be able to serve everyone. And so even sending that email to the Humane Society felt like, oh, am I being mean? Oh, am I, like, is this too much?
Right. And just coming to terms with the fact that like telling a client that you're not a good fit or telling an organization that maybe this relationship isn't the best for me anymore, or, or any of those things feels scary. But also, like, on the other end of it, I'm relieved to not have that thing that's dragging me down, but it's something that I definitely know I is,
is an area of work. Okay. So what is the fear, do you think about setting the boundary or just being really clear? So if it's not mean, right, if it's just like you are establishing clarity and you send that email, they read the email, what is, what does your brain tell you? Is the fear That they partly that they're going to think that I'm just a nasty person,
partly that they're gonna be like, well, we don't ever wanna work with that nasty person. And then also that maybe it's just easier to let them take advantage of me than to speak up. Yeah, yeah. And, and that's something that like, no, you, you should speak up when you're feeling taken advantage of, which I know logically,
but is, is taking some time for me to actually implement. And I know I do this with clients too. Like I, it's a Theme. Yeah. I let clients walk all over me all the time. 'cause if, if, if you set boundaries, I actually wrote this down, it equals being nasty. Boundaries equal, nasty in your brain.
You know, logically that's not true. But your brain tells you, if I set boundaries, people are going to think I'm nasty. So of course I'm going to avoid setting boundaries. But the interesting thing is, you can be uncomfortable now and set the boundary, which could be uncomfortable when you're learning how to do it and finding your way. Or you can be uncomfortable later when you're all resentful because they're taking advantage of you and you get to pick your discomfort.
It's either now or it's later, but I promise you, if you wait and the discomfort is later, it's going to be worse. So is being uncomfortable now sending the email worth the, you said relief, the, you know, like the freedom of not feeling resentful later? I mean, yes, right. Definitely. I think it's just in that moment convincing my brain that it's the right thing to do.
I also am trying on a thought and reminding myself that like, when, when businesses have provided me with great customer service, but also have been, you know Yes. About their own principles Yes. Or firm about their own boundaries, I respect them more. Correct. Because not only does it make them seem like, you know, a a decent,
legitimate business who knows what they want, it also makes it seem, I don't wanna say like exclusive, but like, I think by not setting boundaries, I'm also devaluing myself For sure. Oh, for sure. Because it's like a sign on your forehead that says, Hey everybody, take advantage of me. I'm an easy target. Walk all over me.
And, and we've seen that this has happened to you in the past, and I think it, it, I get the sense that you're finally tired enough of it that you're gonna make some changes. Is that correct? I think so. I think, I think I'm learning that standing up for myself while it is uncomfortable in the moment, like, like,
is not going to end up being a bad thing. Correct. It'll be good. Yeah. Yeah. And moving into next year, I'm really trying to make my business priority. I'm trying to make my business a destination and I can't do that if I'm trying to serve everyone, trying to make everybody happy, trying to be for everyone and getting my head around,
like not being for everyone is, is a whole thing. But I have to, I have to. It's actually, I think you can even rephrase that to say, that's actually what I want to do because I wanna create a business that I love and people respect. So I want to do this. This is actually what I want. I want,
and I'm willing to feel uncomfortable in the moment. Understanding I'm not for everyone. And something that I would remind myself often because I want people to like me as well. I mean, I'm a human, but I just tell myself it's okay to be misunderstood. So if somebody thinks that you setting a boundary is nasty, that's on them, you know,
like, I'm not gonna receive that because setting a boundary to me is just about running a good business. And I, I actually believe that like a large percentage of the time, most people see those boundaries and respect you. Just like you said, you respect other businesses. Yeah, Absolutely. So I had a client once that asked for the raw files for one,
excuse me. She was an inquiry and she wanted the raw files from her wedding and she asked me if she could pay me less to give her the raw files from her wedding because I wouldn't have to edit. And I was like, actually, if I'm gonna give you the raw files for me running, I'm gonna charge you double because I don't wanna do it.
And the answer is no, I'm not gonna give you the files. And she was very upset with me, and this was an in-person meeting in my home. She was in my home And she left and she didn't hire me. And I was like, not, I would not willing to give my raw fouls from a wedding to a client. I'm just not,
it was a boundary. And did I tell you this story? I feel like I told you this story, sorry, I'm repeating it. But anyway, that I didn't hear from her. And then like a year or so later I ran into her somewhere and she said, do you remember me? And I said, oh gosh, remind me, you know,
she said, you told me you wouldn't gimme the raw files and I was so mad at you that day, but I actually wanted to tell you that I really respect you and how you run your business. And I was like, whoa. I mean, I could not, but I was so thankful that she told me that because I was so worried,
you know, after that happened. Oh my gosh, she hates me. She's mad because I'll give her the files and she actually respected me more. So here's the thing, thoughts matter. You know this, if we are thinking people are gonna not like us, they're gonna think we're nasty. We're going to avoid boundaries. But if we are thinking people will respect me more,
you will be more inclined to create these boundaries and make sure they are clear, don't you think? Yeah. Yeah. I think if, if I can embrace that thought that like boundaries need to be a cornerstone of my business because they will make my business more attractive, not less attractive. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's really important for you,
for anyone listening your thoughts drive your feelings, which lead to your actions and your results. If you are thinking nothing but negative about boundaries and you know, rules and terms and conditions and contracts, this's gonna be very difficult to execute them and you know, and, and hold people to them. But if you are thinking, oh, this is the mark of a good business and I'm a CEO and this is how I run my business,
then I mean, it's just Doug. Like for instance, if I have someone in Elevate or one-on-one client say to me, I wanna schedule a call with you on a weekend. This is a hard no, there is no planet on which I'm working on the weekend. I did my time, Laura, I worked weekends for years, I'm not doing it anymore.
And if somebody is upset by that, that's like, that's their brain. Those are their thoughts, you know? And I just need to stay out of their brain and out of their model. That's their model. They're having thoughts about something. I said that's, I'm not willing to receive that and I'm also not going to sit here like I'm some sort of psychic and think of what they might be thinking about me.
You have no clue what they're thinking about you. But nine times outta 10, it's, it's good. Not bad, but we have it reversed in our mind. Well, and I think I, I know for me, like I do this with pricing too, right? Like I will send out my pricing and I'll be like, oh no, they're gonna think I different.
Yeah. It's, but again, like through changing my own thoughts, I'm like, yeah, but I don't wanna get outta bed for 50 bucks, Right? Yeah. Right. It's not worth it. And also, oh my gosh, I'm going to, I, I'm gonna teach this and elevate soon, I haven't put it together yet this new talk on money.
But I, I heard recently that you will only make as much as what up to what you think is a lot of money. Like if you think something is a lot of money, it's gonna be very difficult for you to earn that because it's too much, right? It's like, it's like on a, an imaginary scale, everybody's as different, by the way.
What is like, what is a lot of money? I mean, it depends on who you're talking to. And I, I remember thinking that $5,000 for a wedding was like so much money. And then I got to the point where I just like normalized it. Like no, 5,000 is just what I charge for wedding. It's not a lot of money.
It's the exact right amount of money. And there will be some people who value it and it's in their budget and some people who don't. And that's okay. And once I got to that point of neutrality around the price, things took off and I was booking $5,000 weddings, like, it was like no one's business. But funny, I was on a training last week,
this challenge with this business guy I follow and he has this program. He was trying to sell people on the challenge floor and listen to this. He's like, you get all, he's like going over what his product is, you know, his service. And he is like, you get this, this, this and this and you get these calls.
And he said, and all of this is only just $27,000 for the year. I literally did not see that coming. I did not know he's new to me. So I didn't know his price points at all. I felt I immediately called Nicole and I'm like, oh my gosh, this is cracking me up. So to him, $27,000, he really said it like he just said $5.
And to me I was like, 27,000 what? So much money, but everybody's different. Wow. I have that confidence. And he had no problem saying it and then come to find out a little bit later or it just keeps getting crazier. He has a, a level up from that that's 55,000 a year. And I, I applaud him. I think that's amazing.
I cannot wrap my brain around that kind of money, but until I can, I'm never going to like be able to generate or charge anything like that because I, that's like out of my realm, you know? So like you have to accept what's in your realm. And it's not a lot of my, it's just is money. Money is like the number is neutral and people will decide and I'm gonna fall in love with this number and if people book it,
great. If they don't, then next. Okay, great. Let's wrap up with this, the December challenge for the offline photographer. Now we purposefully made the December challenge a little easier because everybody's busy getting orders to clients in the holidays, obviously. So what we ask people to elevate to do is develop a process where you respond to inquiries and questions with video instead of just an email that you use,
like a software like Loom or Bonjour, there's one called Warm Welcome. Have you done any of this? Have you? Yeah. What are your thoughts? So I did Andrew Hel Mitch's video class ages ago. It's fabulous. I recommend checking it out. It's really great. And I have used Loom to reply to inquiries and what I love about it was,
I can guarantee like if people watch the video I guess, but that they have looked through what I want them to look through. Yes. What I would do is at the very beginning, he encourages you to like hold up a whiteboard with their names written on it so they know it's a personal video. Oh Right, right. It's almost Like Doc video.
Yes. And then I'd be like, Hey, thanks for your email. I'd love to take you through my session guide and show you how our sessions work, some of the artwork that we can generate, da da da da, along with sending them like a written copy of that as well. So you cover both bases. So I haven't found that it makes a huge difference booking wise versus just emailing them the information.
I've also like some of my consultation calls, a lot of them are on Zoom and then my product guide. So after the session I show people products in person, but I also send them a video of the products too. So I find the more little bits of video that I can insert, again, the more people are just able to connect with you.
So I'm looking for ways in the new year to be even more present on video. And I'm hoping that I can kind of figure out a way to do video that I can both send to my clients and use in a client facing way, but then also like reuse that content on social media. Oh, I love that idea. Repurpose the content. So it's serving multiple purposes.
I love that. I think you're right. It, I was gonna ask you if you noticed it making a difference and it didn't, but I think compounding over time, like the video welcome and then the Zoom call and then you're meeting, it's just more interaction face-to-face. And that is never a bad thing, that is always a good thing because people can connect with you and get to know you on a different level and it just,
it just creates that more personal relationships. So it did you have, you don't have any issues. I don't sense that you have any issues or challenges creating those videos? No, I, I like making video content. It's something that I wanna do more of. So I think a lot of us, because we're like behind the camera people Yeah. Nervous about being in front of the camera.
And I think if you're just yourself, like think about the CEOs of companies that we see all the time being, you know, the the like, not necessarily the day-to-Day face of their business, but like, you know, we see Richard Branson advertising for Virgin and you're like, oh, he's a cool guy. Yes, He's a cool company. And I think if,
if I, you know, we can get in that that mindset about like, I'm a cool guy, a cool photography business, Of course everybody should wanna work with me. Why would you not? This is the place to be. Exactly. I love that. Okay, great. Thank you so much. I look forward to talking to you next month and catching up.
Absolutely. Me too. Thanks for listening to this episode of Hair of the Dog podcast. If you enjoyed this show, please take a minute to leave a review and while you're there, don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss our upcoming episodes. One last thing, if you are ready to dive into more resources, head over to our website@www.hair of the dog academy com.
Thanks for being a part of this pet photography community.