No Sanity Required
No Sanity Required is a weekly podcast hosted by Brody Holloway and Snowbird Outfitters. Each week, we engage culture and personal stories with a Gospel-driven perspective. Our mission is to equip the Church to pierce the darkness with the light of Christ by sharing the vision, ideas, and passions God has used to carry us through 26 years of student ministry. Find more content at swoutfitters.com.
No Sanity Required
Jon Interviews Brody on The Story of Snowbird
In this special episode of NSR, the tables are turned and our favorite hype guy, Jon Rouleau, interviews Brody about the early days of Snowbird. Listen as they discuss the vision and heart behind SWO.
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Hey, this is going to be a way different episode. John Rouleau came up to me last Friday and said hey, I want to sit down and interview you, but I want to do it as an NSR episode and I love the idea. He said I think there's a lot of questions that I could ask you that folks would be interested in hearing, and uh. So anyway, it was kind of a different approach to NSR and to what this week's episode will look like. We spent a lot of time together. I enjoyed the conversation so much. John's such a good personal friend but he knows so much of the history of SWO he's been here for a lot of it so I think he did a great job as an interviewer. I hope that I gave him what he was looking for and I hope it's something that you guys can gain something out of A lot of the highs and lows and just the storyline of SWO over the last quarter century and more, actually, more than that.
Speaker 1:I had a blast doing this episode. It's long, it's a lot of content and I hope hope you don't get bored with it. I hope you actually find it interesting. I believe you will, but I think this falls in line. It's a little bit of everything a little bit of tailgate theology, a little bit of beyond the flannel graph, a little bit, a whole lot of Beyond the Flannel Graph, a whole lot of no sanity story. And this is it. This is a lot of the story of Snowbird, wilderness, outfitters and no Sanity Required. So get comfortable. This is a long one and I hope you get something out of it. Let us know what you think. We'll see you at the end of the episode.
Speaker 2:Welcome to no Sanity Required from the Ministry of Snowbird Wilderness Outfitters. A podcast about the Bible culture and stories from around the globe.
Speaker 3:All right. Well, hey, welcome to the no Sanity podcast. No Sanity Required podcast. I'm going to be your host today, John Rulo. Something a little different. And, man, I had this idea. I was talking to my wife about it and I was like, you know, I get a chance to sit at the fires at camp and just hear stories about you know early days of snowbird, or you know stuff that happened in our life or when God, you know God transformed this person and it's just really special. And I thought, man, you know, uh you know Brody does all of these.
Speaker 3:You know he interviews other people, brings different guests on, but uh, you know I know the listeners like me, I would love just to interview Brody and ask him about his life and Snowbird and that kind of thing. So I pitched the idea and I it was. I literally went up to him and I said hey. I said hey, brody, I said I have this idea. Let me you know, maybe in the future, you know, if you ever, you know, need an episode. I said what, what if I just interviewed you and asked you some questions? And he's like let's do it right now. And I was like I said, hold on, can I, can I get a day to think about it? I was like I didn't even think about a question you know what I?
Speaker 3:mean, but he's like hey I just want to do it right now, and I was like so that's that's.
Speaker 1:You know me, that's just how I am, like that's a blessing and a curse.
Speaker 3:That's the way I'm wow, yeah yeah, so I, I was, I was like okay, so I was like, well, I better better get some questions. So just so everybody knows, you know I have a few questions in my mind. We haven't talked about anything.
Speaker 1:I'm just, I'm gonna kind of rapid fire and just see where this goes, yeah, and and if people have questions they'd like to for me to answer for us to talk about, we do another episode. Yeah, email us some questions, email them to john. Email them to talk about we do another episode. Yeah, email us some questions, email them to john, email them to me yeah, that'd be awesome.
Speaker 3:Yeah, um, it's john r at sw outfitters, but, um, yeah, so I kind of wanted to start off because we've grown up completely different. I grew up in southern california and, you know, moved here to Andrews. You've grown up in the mountains and I, you know I love to hear those stories because it's just so different and uh, so I can you maybe let's just start off. I'd love to hear about you know a little bit about your childhood, how you grew up in the mountains. You know you talk about your brothers and you guys fighting, and you know your dad was in ministry and just so many of those aspects. So can you just maybe just share a little bit.
Speaker 3:What does that look like growing up in the mountains?
Speaker 1:yeah, I can hit some like high points, um. So my mom's side of the family goes back to um like six generations maybe in the mountains of North Carolina, and so I've got a long deep mountain pedigree. This, this, uh, it's a unique culture. Southern Appalachian culture is, is not. It's not Southern culture Like. Southern Appalachian culture looks more like central and Northern Appalachian culture than it does the south. The accent is closer to a southern accent and I don't really have the Appalachian accent anymore. It's funny watching old home videos, because I did Even in the early snowbird days.
Speaker 1:I had it. But it's a unique culture and part of that is because it was a culture of people settled here from the Scottish Highlands primarily, and they were just kind of wanting to be left alone and were left alone, traded with. The Cherokee lived here and so anyway. So there's a lot of deep roots that are cultural. But my dad's side of the family, my granddad, came here after World War II and met and married my grandmother on my dad's side of the family.
Speaker 1:My granddad came here after World War II and met and married my grandmother on my dad's side of the family and he was from Mississippi. My granddad, virgil Holloway, had grown up in Mississippi, left Mississippi as an 18-year-old to go in the service or whatever, and late 40s, early 50s, late 40s, ended up in North Carolina after World War II. But then he never left North Carolina and so my dad's dad was a pastor, but he's bivocational. He worked in a mill and he was a pastor. He came to faith as an adult after he got out of the military and around the time my dad was born.
Speaker 1:And then yeah, I grew up on a on a dirt road, gravel road, um, just typical, growing up in the 70s and 80s in a rural setting. Um didn't have tv when I was growing up and so we just stayed outside. Um most the person had the biggest impact on me as a man uh would have probably been my mom's dad. He's a mountain guy and uh was a world war ii veteran and um and uh worked, worked at a factory here in the mountains and um and then my dad. There are a lot of things that I'm thankful that my dad really instilled in me grit, toughness, um, hard work. You know those things, but my dad was.
Speaker 1:A lot of people know my dad's story, one of the first episodes on nsr. I told it he was a pastor when I was young. He was a bivocational pastor, went to seminary, was seminary, trained and educated, but he fell into infidelity and had a series of extramarital affairs and those forced us to move. Several times he was pastoring, he would get in trouble and then we would move. I only learned that as an adult sitting down with my mom and my dad Sitting down with my dad, and he's like hey, remember when you were in second grade we had moved up to Boone, which is where Appalachian State University is. That's where my dad played football on a scholarship there and he and my mom married while and I was born right away while they were like sophomores at app state and so we had roots there and um. So when I went to second grade there and then we left there, well, I found out my dad told me that was because of an extramarital affair and then came down here, back down to Haywood County, which most of our listeners aren't going to know the geography, but a couple hours hour and a half moved back to southwestern North Carolina and my dad pastored. And then when I was in middle school, we moved. I found out that was because of infidelity. I found out that was because of infidelity.
Speaker 1:So it was a convoluted view of Christianity growing up because my dad, while he was pastoring, he was also, fairly, he was like a fundamentalist, which is super strict sect of Baptist life where you can't listen to music with drumbeat, girls are supposed to wear skirts or dresses real strict dress code and can't go to the movies. And my younger siblings didn't have as much of an experience of this. He things started to loosen up when I was a teenager. I'm thankful for that. But so that was kind of a I had. I grew up in a pretty tight, legalistic religious structure and that was so. That was my formative, that was my growing up experience with like theology and church and uh, so it didn't it was.
Speaker 1:It was a strange upbringing, for sure, um, but a home where there was, I think, a lot of love, a lot of extended family. All my aunts and uncles and cousins lived in the same area. We all lived in Haywood County, which is where Waynesville, north Carolina, maggie Valley, north Carolina and Canton, north Carolina those are the three towns in Haywood County, just west of Asheville. And so, yeah, grew up hunting, fishing. You know, I grew up on a dirt road where there was tomato farms and, uh, and we would ride our bikes, we would take inner tubes and ride our bikes up.
Speaker 1:It was right on the pigeon river. They irrigated out of the pigeon river. We'd ride our bikes up up to the bridge a couple miles up and on up the dirt road and then throw our tubes in the river and float the pigeon river down to the farm below our house and we'd get out. It was, it was the Henson brothers had a they they farmed for a living, big tomato farms. We get out and, uh, you know, just a fun upbringing playing in the river, fishing, swimming, riding our bikes. That's awesome. Yeah, it very 70s and 80s rural, mountain upbringing. By the time I got into high school I graduated, you know. I went through high school in the late 80s, so that was a.
Speaker 1:That was just a fun era to be in high school that was a cool, you know, you think go watch, uh, stranger things, or I mean the best movies are in the 80s they are you watch the 80s and you're like gosh man.
Speaker 3:There's this nostalgia that you I think, everybody wishes they lived in that era.
Speaker 1:It was was a cool time to grow up and um, and I, I, um, you know, I grew up in a time where, um, I was talking to my boys, my younger boys, the other day, where I remember getting in fist fights weekly in elementary school and middle school, like it was. Boys were just rough and tumble. If you got in a fight at school you got disciplined, but there was no SRO, you weren't getting kicked out of school. It was just kind of a different time. Boys could be boys. So I have a younger brother, biological brother, who's a couple years, three years younger than me, and we grew up, but he's, he's a big dude and so we were closer in size. He was, uh, you know, it looked more like we were the same age because he was such a big kid, and so we grew up together.
Speaker 3:Um. His brother looks like a gladiator. Ps Okay, he's impressive. When, when I first moved back and it was a birthday party for you at the snack shack and your family was here and I remember rolling up thinking, who are these neanderthals? I mean it was just like like everybody. I was like is this a, is this like a ufc camp thing? What's happening here?
Speaker 1:I tell people I'm the runt of the men in my family and they don't believe me Because you know people are like there's no way. But I am.
Speaker 3:It's crazy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I had my cousin Scott on here not long ago. He's a retired Secret Service agent and it was fun because he was the only one that didn't grow up up here with the rest of us, his dad and mom. His dad was from the middle part of the state, outside of charlotte and but he's a big old boy. You know he's a, he's a big dude and, yeah, my fam, so my brother, we grew up very rough and tumble, very rough and tumble in a good way, not rough like on the streets yeah, just tough kid like got to be boys.
Speaker 1:Yeah, if, if you got bloody or needed stitches and or a bone set, it was just not a big deal. And, um, I can remember getting. The first time I remember getting stitches was I was probably in second grade and I remember freaking out and my dad just saying, hey, son, this is probably gonna happen a lot, it's not a big deal, we're gonna go to the doctor, they're gonna put some stitches in your head and, and it was. And I remember you know like I remember I tell this story I'm breaking my nose. I broke it twice and the first time my dad took me to the doctor and the doctor reset it with these two little probe looking things. He kind of slid them up into my nose and he just straightened it like he just one in each nostril. He straightened it. It wasn't like smashed and shattered, yes, it was just cracked and offset and he straightened it up and I broke my nose again. I remember my dad saying I can do that, I, we can go to the doctor.
Speaker 3:This time oh god.
Speaker 1:And he just like, pulled on my nose, you know, and so I remember breaking a finger in football and my dad saying oh, you don't need to go to the doctor for broken fingers, we can straighten that, we can fix that, you know. And he pulled on it and jerked on it and taped it to a popsicle stick.
Speaker 3:Yeah, technically I don't think that's true. No, it's not true, but that's fine, it's not.
Speaker 1:And it's great because there's enough of our listeners and enough people at Snowbird that got to know my dad enough to know he was an interesting dude and was rough as a cob but was a larger-than-life kind of personality. But anyway, yeah, so that was my upbringing, I would say by today's standards. We were poor. I didn't know we were poor, but we did not have much and drove old beater cars. Again, I'm the oldest so I have a lot of memories from childhood that other siblings probably wouldn't quite remember as much. But we never had a lot and I'm grateful for that. My dad really made me work a lot. I'll tell this one story and I'll be done with that.
Speaker 1:But when I went off to college, I was an athlete. I was an athlete. I went to college to play basketball, and so we weren't uh, we didn't. You don't get time off, you just don't get. You don't get to go home. When you're a collegiate athlete, you don't get. I mean, it's a year round sport.
Speaker 1:At that point they were going to give us thanksgiving. They said don't get used to this, it's not going to happen very often, but they're going to give us thanksgiving off, and so that's right in the middle basketball season, but what it was? We had a tournament. You start, you start midnight madness in october, and it's a big tip off and you play at midnight of the first day, the ncaa lets you play ball and everybody was there and it's kind of crazy and the stands are full and and then at Thanksgiving I got to go home. We got to go home for Thanksgiving. We got to have Thursday, friday, Saturday off. We had to be back on Saturday evening and we have meetings on Sunday, so it gives three days off. And I remember the upperclassman saying man, this has never happened. I remember a guy named Mike Coleman he was a senior, played center 6 and he said man, I've never had, they've never given us these days off. So my dad he calls me and my parents were still together at this point. They got divorced.
Speaker 1:After I was in college he gave me a voucher to fly home and now I'm flying. It takes me five hours to drive. It took me eight hours to fly home because I flew out of lynchburg to roano, yeah, to raleigh, durham, to ashville. You know, it's so funny, I should just drove home. So I get home, he picks me up, and this is all. On wednesday night. We have practice on wednesday, and wednesday afternoon I fly out. I get home at midnight, we celebrate, we do thanksgiving. We had a lot of cool traditions. We went hunting on thanksgiving morning always and go to my, my papa's house, my granddad's house, and we had a big meal. Well, friday morning my dad had lined up that I would work as a temp with Allied Moving Company and I said what I'm exhausted? Yeah, exhausted. I mean you know what that looks like.
Speaker 3:I mean and you got a turkey coma.
Speaker 1:I'm in a turkey coma and have just worked my tail off my first semester of college and I got up I had to be at Allied Van Company. I don't remember where I had to go, but at 7 in the morning and I didn't have a vehicle. So he took me and dropped me off. So 7 o'clock Friday morning he drops me off, I get in an 18-wheeler with the guy. I get in an 18-wheeler with a guy and we drive out to Lake Lure, up into this expensive home you know gated community. These people had built a house and we're moving their stuff in and we unload an 18-wheeler, a semi.
Speaker 1:I remember we moved in a piano, me and this truck driver, and I was working as a temp and I worked 10 hours that day and then on Saturday I had to work half a day. I had to fly back Saturday evening. He worked me half a day Saturday and I think I made like 80 bucks in two days. You know, and I remember just going. I am never going to go home on a break. I'm not doing it, but ended up. I'm thankful for that. Yeah, so I was. I was raised to work hard and um didn't really make my fate. I don't think I. I didn't become a true Christ follower till I was 19 years old, because it was just a religious system. I would say growing up and uh, and there was so much emphasis on the do's and don'ts and so anyway that was a long answer.
Speaker 1:I just spent 15 minutes.
Speaker 3:That wasn't a pumpkin spice latte fall for you.
Speaker 1:No, it was not.
Speaker 1:It was not, it definitely was not. I remember when I said we didn't have money, we didn't have snacks at the house, and so the snacks were, my mom would buy big tubs of peanut butter and we would eat peanut butter. Just spoonfuls of peanut butter, that was the snack I would have. But then my mom, she cooked breakfast every morning. We had grits every morning because it's cheap. And my mom, she cooked breakfast every morning. We had grits every morning because it's cheap. She'd make a big pot of grits every day of my life, thankful for that. It was a lot of love. My mom was an awesome lady and just a lot of love. But I remember we would get to eat cereal on Saturday mornings and it would be plain Rice Krispies or Corn Flakes, but I can remember not having milk and putting water in the cereal. I do. I remember that vividly and would still do it when I got to college because I had done it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, man, that's crazy. Well, I mean I love that insight in the sense that, like you're obviously sharing, you know, no family's perfect. You know there's obviously some some brokenness that was there, but I've heard you say multiple times there was a lot of love that was there and that seems that it's shaped you a little bit. But I guess the question that comes to my mind when I'm hearing you say that you know with you know with your dad and, and you know the legalism and some of the extramarital affairs, all that kind of stuff, and but yet still have an extended family, different people Was there somebody in your life? Maybe that, when you look back, was maybe a little bit more of that Christ-like example you know what I mean or where you know, was there anybody? Was it a collection of things? Was it just things that you picked up? I mean, how did it kind of lead you to that place when you were 19? Was there seeds planted early?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think yes. So there was for sure. Sure, there was a lot of scripture put into my mind. You know, I think, like I did bible drill as a kid, where you memorize scripture, and I mean I was there every time the church doors were open, and but I don't think, I think, um, my spiritual formation occurred. So when I was 19,.
Speaker 1:What happened was I was just like seeking truth and, okay, like I was, I was wrestling with is have I been fed a lie my whole life? You know, you come to that point where you got to make your faith your own. You know, scripture says the gospel is not of the flesh. So you, in other words, you're not born a Christian, it's not. It's non-transferable, nobody gives it to you. You're not born with it, it's something that the Lord provides. And so, when I was 19, I was just trying to figure out who am I, what am I going to do? And so I, the Lord, was so kind to show me favor and I and I just just I think I decided I'm gonna, I'm gonna make this my own. And um, after that, I just committed to read the bible. I started reading the bible and then the lord put some people in my life along the way that I learned from and this was?
Speaker 3:was this after you had gone to?
Speaker 1:college. Yeah, yeah, I was 19, I was 19. I was a sophomore in college. Yeah, when I made a profession of faith, I think. And I didn't like make a profession of faith and make it a public thing. This is crazy. I don't know when I really got saved.
Speaker 3:Was that at Liberty? Yeah?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and people say how did you go to Christian school when you weren't a Christian? Well, I mean, I had all the answers, I knew what to say, sure, but I was zero confidence of my salvation.
Speaker 3:And you were an athlete. So there was, there's I mean, there's always exceptions.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's exceptions and you, you know you had to take, you had to write down, I don't remember now, but you had to profess to be a Christian and I did. But and I had to go through Bible classes that first year and I'm not kidding John, I skipped them, I didn't go. You know it's easy to dodge class and you know they had advisors that came and checked to make sure we were in class and as soon as the advisor came through, they were grad assistants, they were taking role to make sure athletes were in class. They were from the team and I would slide out and I'd skipped a lot of class and yeah, but just kind of go through the motions.
Speaker 1:But, um, yeah, so I I. My personal journey was that my my sophomore year, I made a profession of faith and a lot of it had to do with little, because I saw her and thought I really want to, I really want to talk to her and maybe I don't know the terminology I would have used date her or go out with I don't remember like hey now, yeah, he's a bible girl yeah, which, and she.
Speaker 1:But what was crazy is she was a brand new Christian and she wasn't like on fire for God or anything. She was there on a scholarship to play ball. That's how I met her. That's how I saw her. Anyway was in the Vine Center, in the gym, in the shoot around practice. But I remember this the Lord used my desire to pursue a woman to say I remember this self check of okay, how am I going to do this? I've never seen this done right.
Speaker 1:My dad, I knew my dad's stuff. Like my parents' marriage was like Rocky and my mom was so good and gracious and kind. But she would, my mom would confide in me. Hey, your dad doesn't talk to me, he ignores me. It's, it's hard. She would say to me one day you're going to be a husband. Please to your wife, please pay attention to her. Well, I know now it's because he was. He didn't need that, he was getting it elsewhere, whatever, and I saw it. I felt that tension and there's even been tension. I felt tension.
Speaker 1:I talked with my oldest sister several years ago because she had posted on the social media post about because my dad died 20 years ago almost. He was 55, 54, 55 when he died. But she had posted happy father's day to the greatest dad a girl could ever have and he happy father's day in heaven. And I'm like I hope my dad's in heaven. I'm not sure, I'm not, I'm not 100 confident in that, um, but I remember just talking to her and saying that's a slap in the face to your husband because she's married to a good dude who's a good dad and a good husband. And I was like I don't know what you remember about our dad, but he wasn't there for our mom. He was unfaithful to our mother and the lesson that I've learned is that the greatest gift parents can give their kids is to love each other well.
Speaker 1:I think that the love between mom and dad, husband and wife is the binding bonding agent of a family, and so my dad did not treat my mom well. He just was ugly and short and he was not abusive, he didn't raise his hand against her, he was just cold and a lot of times indifferent. And my mom would say to me I remember so many times my mom would say to me be good to your wife, talk to her, love her. And she probably confided more in me than maybe she should have at that time. But I'm glad she did, because I was super aware and I remember thinking, okay, I want to have a relationship with this girl, but I don't even know what that looks like.
Speaker 1:And that's when I started to really a relationship with this girl. But I don't even know what that looks like. And that's when I got serious. I started to really self reflect and that's when I got serious about okay, I'm going to follow Jesus. If I follow Jesus and I commit to follow the Lord and the Lord used a few conversations I have with people, but it's weird it's weird, john because I don't have.
Speaker 1:It sounds so cold and terrible, but I don't. I know the Lord used my, but I don't. I know the Lord used my upbringing, but I don't look at anybody from my childhood it's like man. I learned a lot from that guy. It'd be like him.
Speaker 1:It was that legalistic, weird form of Christianity that I don't regret it because it did so. What it did was it put a lot of scripture in my heart that when I became a Christian, I remember my twenties just thinking I need to go back and study all this stuff that I know that I don't really know. Jesus one time said to the Sadducees you don't know the Word of God or the power of God. And these people had memorized the whole Torah and the Pentateuch. They could quote it verbatim and tell you what page and what position on the page every word was on. And he he's like but you don't know the word of god. Yes, like that knowledge. That's what I didn't have. Yeah, personal, real, intimate knowledge. And so, uh, yeah, my early 20s.
Speaker 1:So I started to pursue little. I started to. You know, we ended up in a relationship and got married within a couple years. We were married and um, and I just I realized, okay, if I'm going to do this right by by then my folks had had major issues and I'm like their marriage was failed and then her parents eventually would go on and be divorced, but they stayed married a lot longer. But I remember we talked about their marriage, the dynamic. I remember having those conversations and so it was like what? What motivated me as a as a man of God, as a person to follow Jesus, was I want to get marriage right.
Speaker 3:I want to do this right and I don't have an example of that and the Lord did bring.
Speaker 1:I talk a lot about a man named Lance Bingham. He's the head track coach now at Liberty and at the time we were brand new married couple and I met Lance and he had come there as an assistant coach and we're still in school and I got to see a healthy husband and dad who loved his family Well man praise the Lord.
Speaker 3:You know, I me, I grew up Catholic and so I can identify in the sense that, like you know, there was something about having a religious upbringing that there was still a respect for God and Jesus and maybe, even though it wasn't played out right, when I became a Christian, there were some Bible stories and some things that all of a sudden, now, it's like the Holy Spirit illuminated those. Like the Holy Spirit illuminated those, you know, it's like they were stored inside without life, and then, once, you know, once Jesus came in me, then it was like those things kind of came to life.
Speaker 1:That's a good way to explain it. You know, that's exactly what I feel. I knew a lot, but it was not illuminated.
Speaker 3:Yeah, Um well, I'm just going to keep you know, cause, even as I'm listening Well, I'm just going to keep you know, because even as I'm listening, my brain's going a million places. So, okay, you know 19,. You know God really used little and you're, you know, you're growing in the Lord. What stage in your life, you know were you like man, I want to do this for a living. You know I want to do, you know, ministry, and maybe ministry, maybe snowbird, I don't know if it was like camp ministry or you know how'd you get to that place?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, all that's going to. It's cool. This is a good. This is a good place to plug the book that's coming out Lord Will in this coming year, where I tell the story of how we started Snowbird.
Speaker 1:So after my sophomore year, I stopped playing basketball. After my sophomore year, I stopped playing basketball and my deal with myself was I'm going to put in for this job that would provide a scholarship. If I get it, if I can get this job, then I'm going to let my basketball money go and walk away from that. And that's a different, different story. But it was basically, I realized I just to be honest, I wasn't good enough to be playing at that level. The lord had opened that door and I realized, oh, these guys are all bigger, faster, stronger, but it got me there and nobody would work harder than me. But I'm a 6'3 guy and I mean our, you know, our point guard was my height and I wasn't a point guard, I was a swing, I was a three, and our threes, the other two threes, were one was 6'7, one was 6'6 and they could move, you know. And so I just realized, man, the writing's on the wall here, I don't, I don't want to keep doing this, I'm not going to probably get even as a senior, I'm probably not going to be getting much playing time.
Speaker 1:There was a guy named John that was on our team. He was a senior and he was like me. He was getting about three minutes a game as a senior. I had a conversation with him. He said man, I worked my tail off for four years and I'm finally getting three minutes, three to four minutes a game. He's like you, better love it, because you know I think he was averaging one point a game, scoring a bucket every other game. And so I was like I don't want to do that. I don't think I want to do it.
Speaker 1:So I put in for a job with an outfit called liberty expeditions, which was a high adventure program connected to the university. But it was the university used an outside uh company to do all their for their outdoor ed program, outdoor education and recreation program. At the time they used this guy that ran an outfitter on the new river in West Virginia. So, long story short, I put in with that guy and got the job. I had taken an elective class with them called high adventure outdoor. Intro to high adventure outdoor. We learned some outdoor adventure stuff, ropes and stuff, and I'd done some whitewater trips with them, so I put in thought this would be fun to do. It just seemed fun and I got the job. So went to work at Liberty Expeditions.
Speaker 1:Matt Jones, who's one of my executive partners here at Snowbird we call him Muggs he and I got that job together. That's where our relationship, relationship, our friendship, really forged. He was an outdoor ed major, I was not. I was a criminal justice major, and so that job was designed to be given to outdoor ed majors. So I put in for it and a guy said man, it's, we've never, we've never given this scholarship to somebody that's not in the outdoor ed program. And I said, but I had volunteered so much in that because you could volunteer. It's like, imagine, snowbird, you could just come out and volunteer. Yeah, I'd volunteered so much that that guy was like I just want him over. And he gave me two. Two, there were two scholarships in that program and I. So I made that my minor and I got. I got that scholarship. So what that scholarship did was it it? It paid for my schooling.
Speaker 1:And then, uh, we had, we worked in the program and so we, I worked for this company called Liberty expeditions. They ran whitewater trips on the new and Galley rivers in West Virginia and then they did our main job mugs. And our main job mugs and our main job was leading horse horseback riding trips and you know, up in the woods and um trail rides and stuff. And then, um, that got me into camp and so then after uh, and then I got married a year or two later and then that I was done with school and I was just going to work landscaping mowing. I was working, I was cutting grass because little still had a year of school left. Like I'll just work locally and then, once she had her degree, we'll figure out where we want to go. Start together in life we're already married.
Speaker 1:Well, I get a call from a guy at a camp, a youth camp about 20 minutes away, and he said I got your name from Robin Carroll that was the guy that ran Liberty expeditions. And he said you've been working for him but it's not a full-time job. And now you, you, you've moved, you got to move on and and he explained you know it was a scholarship job. Now that you're done with school, um you, would you be interested in coming out out? I'd like to interview you for a job I've got. So I go to this guy's. Uh, so go. At the time I was I was landscaping and I was putting in um mini dish satellite like a dish dish network.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was putting that was brand new thing, I was putting those in. So I had a couple jobs. I was working my butt off and little was still going to school and she's still playing ball and I'm, you know, supporting her and going to her games. And so I go out and interview with this guy and I sit down across from him and he says uh, you come highly recommended. Um, Robin Carroll said you know, you're a real hard worker, You're an initiative taker.
Speaker 1:You're a self starter, he doesn't have to look over your shoulder. He said that's what we're looking for. And I tell this story to our institute every year. I sit down across from him and he rolls out a massive set of blueprints and he said I need to hire a guy because we're getting ready to go into a major expansion phase. We're going to build a five-acre lake, we're going to build six new cabins, we're going to do a dining hall renovation and expansion and we're going to build a new bath house and I need somebody to come in and basically work like a general contractor and oversee this. John, I'd never built anything. I built a birdhouse out of popsicle sticks in VBS when I was in sixth grade. That was the only thing I'd ever built.
Speaker 3:In a five-acre lake. Here we come.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so seven acres need to be logged and clear cut and then a five acre, five surface acres, to build this lake. So he's showing me these blueprints. I might as well have been looking at, uh, hieroglyphics like you know, hammurabi stone or whatever. I don't know what I'm looking at and I'm acting like he's showing me we're gonna, you know, here, we're gonna, we're gonna cut, we're gonna build the dam here and you'll you see the elevation change here. And I don't know what I'm looking at. He's showing me stuff. I'm just like, oh, yes, sir, yes, sir, yes, sir. And he says, uh, he says you think you can handle this, is this all in your wheelhouse? I say yes, sir, because I needed a job.
Speaker 1:I didn't want to keep putting in many dishes I wanted to I'll do something I wanted to do and I got excited about this job because I loved working at Liberty Expedition. So this camp, it was like this is going to be awesome if I can get this job, but I don't know. Construction, I don't know. Yes, sir, I can do it. And so, um, he said, can I pause you once?
Speaker 3:Listen this is a side note for any young people listening. There is a leadership lesson here where somebody taught me this when I first moved to LA you don't say no to a job, you say yes and you figure it out. Yeah, 100%. And it's especially in the day and age of you know YouTube and you could figure it out. You know, and a lot of times that's how you learn a trade or I don't. You know and then you figure it out. So I just thought about that as you're talking. You know and then you figure it out. So I just I thought about that as you're talking. It's like cause that? Then that's ingrained in you. You're a person that's like oh, you teach yourself, you know. Mentally, you're like I can figure things out. Just because I don't know something does not mean that that's a closed door.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't say no, I can't do that, like the words I can't or I cannot, that I'm like I will not have that in my vocabulary. And yeah, I told the guy I can do it. And he said you think you can handle it? Yes, sir, I can do it. And so he said we'll call you. This was on a Monday and he said we'll call you by the end of the week. Well, he called me either that night or the next night. He said we won't, we won't offer you the job. I think part of it was he thought he was getting more out of me than what I was bringing to the table, but he didn't have a lot of money and he couldn't go hire a legit con general contractor type guy to come. You know it was a $20,000 a year salary, which for me at that time was great. I mean it was that would be today's equivalent of 40,000 probably. And so I was elated.
Speaker 1:I mean, I was ecstatic and so I said well, I need to put in a two-week notice. And my plan was I'm going to put in a notice and figure out how to do some of this stuff. So I called Little's granddad. I said hey, I just took a job where I got to build a five-acre lake.
Speaker 1:And I remember he cussed. He was, was funny dude. He loved the lord but he was rough around. He was an. He was a world war ii tarawa. He was a marine, fought in the south pacific, was on tarawa, deacon at his church, but he had a pretty. He had a marines vernacular. He's like you, dumb, what are you stupid, what are you thinking? And he laughed he's like you're so stupid. He said that's kind of why I like you, you know. I said well, I need you. Could you come up here and teach me the first couple weeks I'm on the job, could you come up here and show up to work with me and help me figure this stuff out? And I called Little's dad and said he had been a general contractor. And I said I've got to build a dining hall expansion, a renovate. We've got to knock out a wall and do an addition on a dining hall and it was going to be a, you know, 3,000 square foot expansion, just a dining room.
Speaker 1:But I remember the first week on the job one of the first things I did was write a $75,000 check for a bulldozer at a Caterpillar dealership and I had never done anything. And so Little's granddad came up and we started. We started cutting, logging and clearing for that. Like he didn't come up right away, I think I started. I knew how to run chainsaw so I started cutting trees and clearing for that lake and then I got him to come up and teach me how to run that dozer. For two weeks I just stood on the side of the dozer for eight, ten hours a day while he operated it and I and then he would, he would, he was pushing dirt and moving stuff and then I would jump down and run chainsaws. I worked with him.
Speaker 1:He was so great. His name was Dorsey Coleman. Mo's middle name is Dorsey. We named him after him. Everybody called him Big D and I worked with Big D for a week so I kind of learned enough about it. So that was my first quote-unquote ministry job. When I was at Liberty expeditions. It was a ministry job but I wasn't doing any ministry type stuff. But when I was at that camp uh, all along I'm planning on going into a career field and my heart started to really love the camp world. Um, but you know as well as I do, but it's hard to explain this to people Snowbird is not like a camp.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:It's such a different.
Speaker 1:It's snowbird is a culture, culture driver yes, it's a equipping platform and, like we do so much more than run camps, yes, but the but that grew out of being at these other camps and realizing this is an incredible platform. You could go do something a lot more dynamic than just have a week of camp with a kid and get them pumped up and excited. But I was working on the maintenance and construction side. We built the six cabins. I hired a guy named kenny osgood. He was a. He was a framer from california. He was a guy from southern california, that's right, one of your boys, and he had moved over here rough. You know, he's a framer.
Speaker 1:I was like I need a framer. I started asking around, found this. Somebody said, hey, here's a guy. And anyway, I hired this guy. I paid him more than I was making because I had a budget to work with. So I paid this framer and he was a really good framer and we framed up, dried in and roofed these six cabins and uh, kenny osgood worked with me and and, uh, we got.
Speaker 1:We got that done and then it was easy to finish them from there because they were rustic cabins, like snowbird cabins. Well, like building a house, I didn't have to put in cabinets and trim and it was just slap up some osb. I just needed to be able to build a structure, so I learned how to frame, working with kenny osgood, and then learn how to run that equipment with little's granddad. And pretty soon, I you know, little and little came and she graduated that next year and came to work with me, and so we spent several years working at that camp and it was there the lord put the desire to start snowbird in our hearts, because that's awesome. We just saw what a cool platform a high adventure camp could be in terms of really discipling kids.
Speaker 3:Well, was there any like uh, services or, or speakers or moments? Are you just like, like, like, maybe something was like dang, like, pricked your heart a little bit and was like, or just being in that complete environment, you were just moving more towards man, I love. I want to reach teenagers for Christ.
Speaker 1:It was well what it was. What I remember really well was realizing I could be myself and lose myself, so I didn't have to be somebody. I wasn't in that world. I could lose myself in Christ, but I could be myself. I don't have to try to be, and so I wasn't. I didn't start off as a preacher, and something that you know I think is important. People, a lot of times people will ask about the call to preach. When do you remember the call to preach? And I always just say you know, when you look at the pastoral epistles, when the qualifications for pastors, overseers, elders are laid out, it says if anyone desires, that's right, like if you don't desire it, you ain't being called to it. I believe that John.
Speaker 1:Yes, 100% Because people say I fought the call, I wrestled, fought the call. I wrestle with a call. Most of those dudes don't make it. It's some other pressure. My dad's a case in point. My dad was in ministry, I think, because his dad and uncle were pastors, and I don't think I don't know what my dad was doing, but he would say, man, I fought the call to preach, I fought it and I fought it and I fought it. And I remember when I became, when I started preaching once snowbird going. I remember this moment where I realized I don't ever remember getting called to preach.
Speaker 1:My desire started to shape to this.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I remember struggling with that at Liberty because, again, I didn't grow up in the church and I didn't know that language and people you know like, oh, when did God call you to ministry? And I couldn't give an answer, but I just knew after I got saved I had such a strong desire for other people to know Jesus. And it says anyone who desires the office of a bishop desires a good thing. And I remember reading that and having so much freedom because I'm like it says desires. I mean, who wants to do this for a living? You know what I mean.
Speaker 3:It's like hey, you're going to make no money and it's going to be really hard and you know all the things and you're like, yeah, sign me up. But it's like you have this deep desire. You want people to know Jesus so bad. And you're like I'm going to figure it out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, for sure, To answer your question. I don't remember a specific person that really impressed anything on me, it was more. I realized this is the, this is a world I, this is where I fit I fit here.
Speaker 1:And I had. I had looked at, you know, my degree was in criminal justice and I had looked at the world of federal law enforcement. I did my internship with US Marshals and realized, oh, I'm not for that world. Like being like, like there, it just wasn't a good fit for me. You know, I've got friends now that are retired federal agents. We've got several that come to our adult conferences here every year and, and I have so much respect for those guys that I just realized I wasn't for that world. I don't think I could make it in that world.
Speaker 1:And so being able to start this thing where I could be myself but lose myself, it wasn't about me, it wasn't about built. You know, my father-in-law and I started the camp with our wives, my wife and her parents that's you know little. And I and her parents started it and and I just learned early on, I could be myself. And so the person that made the deepest, most lasting impression on me is two people, uh, my father-in-law, steve coleman, aka the big kahuna. He basically wrote me a blank check to be myself and say you better be. Basically he never said these words, but he was who he was and it freed me up to be who I was and we were enough alike then I think a lot resonated with me. We're very different in a lot of ways too, but he, he basically showed me you just be who you are. And he was a larger than life person and, um, you know he's six, five, three hundred pounds. So he and you know he's 6'5", 300 pounds, so he's physically imposing and large, but he's just a big personality and so I, early on, learned a lot from him to just be you, just be you, be yourself, and I always have been. I don't try to be nobody. I ain't never tried to sound like a different preacher. I never emulated anybody. Just be me. And I've tried blessing yeah, it's so freeing.
Speaker 1:The other person that did that for me was a guy named Rob Hester, who I talk about often, and Rob Hester was the first youth pastor that brought students here. He brought 30 kids up and they they did a camp out and he was a personal friend to mine and my father-in-law's and so we didn't really it wasn't like a week of camp. They came up and camped out and stayed in the old cabin on the property and he did devotions with them every night and we just worked and cleared brush. That was the year before we physically started the camp and that was in the summer of 97. The first campers official campers came in 98.
Speaker 1:But Rob and I developed a deep and lasting friendship that lasted for 10 years. He died at age 36 in 2007. He had a blood clot going to his heart and he died suddenly. But he was a dynamic preacher and communicator. He was a larger and he was the one that would say to me don't you ever not be who you are, you be yourself.
Speaker 1:God has given you a unique personality and a unique skill set and ability to impact people in a certain way, but don't try to be somebody you're not. So that was real freeing for me. So those are the two guys that probably impressed me the most young in my ministry was my father-in-law and Rob Hester and they're the two guys that pushed me to preach. They're like hey, man, you need to be in front of folks, you need to be saying things because people are listening and you need to use the platform God's given you. And then the third person that came along, kind of affirmed that was Austin Rammel, who you know. Austin is a longtime partner of this ministry but a personal friend. So those are guys that I think just enabled me from a young age.
Speaker 2:I didn't preach my first sermon until I was almost 30. And so by then I had a lot of reps in life. I had worked at Liberty.
Speaker 1:Expeditions. So the first sermon I preached was in summer of 2001. I preached the Wednesday night sermon. I was 29 years old, first time I ever preached. Wow Like preached? Yeah, and it was not. I'm sure it was a train wreck, like most people's first sermon, but anyway I preached it nine times. We did nine weeks of camp back then I preached it nine times.
Speaker 3:Hey. So if you're listening and you're older and you're 20s and you think hey, you know, I missed it. I don't have a degree or my MDiv or whatever they say. You know that's not true. You know the Lord can call you, can use you. You know what I mean, and so that's all. I didn't know that, that's awesome.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. My first sermon.
Speaker 1:I was 29, and I didn't preach regularly until I was 30. But what I did do from about age 22, about age 22, I started to really commit to daily read the Bible, spend time in the Word, and so I began a legitimate daily devotion life. I was a three-year-old Christian and a new husband and I was like I can't sit down and read our daily bread and a couple verses each morning. I want to spend some time with the Lord. We had moved here and Little and I were the only people living here in Andrews and we were living in the old cabin that was her grandmother's.
Speaker 1:And I sit there, man, I can remember it's dark Down under those red oak trees. Remember it's dark at five down under those red oak trees, it's dark at five, 30, you know, so far up, tucked up against the mountain, and so in the winter it's just dark so early and we didn't have a TV. We didn't have, and I was just sitting there and read and study and I started to read theology and Bible commentaries and um, and just become a student of the word and journal and write and handwrite stuff, just pages and pages and pages, and I started to really enjoy studying the scripture and I didn't know I was studying it exegetically or expositorily. I didn't know the terminology, I just knew I wanted to be very careful to understand what the word was saying so, the Lord was showing me through his word who he was.
Speaker 1:So then, when the time came for me to start preaching this is crazy when I, when I, was asked to preach for the first time, um it was, it was kind of out of necessity.
Speaker 1:It was like camp grew faster than we thought it was going to grow and we thought we were going to bring in outside speakers that my father-in-law would preach and we'd bring in outside speakers and I was going to do rec, rec, training, kind of staff leadership, and then maintenance and construction, because we thought we were going to be small and so I can wear all these different hats. And then there was a need for somebody to preach and so I was like I'll do it that first summer. And that first summer that I preached, preached, which was like our third or fourth summer that I actually preached my first sermon, and and I remember just saying, what am I going to preach? Well, I had five years worth of handwritten verse by verse journals, so I just went and pulled a passage that I loved and I had worked through that passage and I just created my own outline from my journals. It's almost like it's so good and so just like my own outline from my journals.
Speaker 1:It's almost like that's so good and so just like only say what the Bible says.
Speaker 3:It's like Paul in Arabia. You know, you were just digging that well deep and didn't even know it.
Speaker 1:Just thought it was just for me and Jesus yeah.
Speaker 3:That's awesome. You know, a lot of times when I, when I think about you know being married and you know thinking about family relationships and all that kind of stuff and knowing. You know, when we came to camp, big Kahuna was still here when we first came to camp and you're a hundred percent right, larger than life, figure and personality and big man. You know. Um, how was that? I mean you know, cause you're newly married, so you're trying to establish your own family. But then there's this dynamic where you're working with your father-in-law and it sounds like you guys had a pretty good relationship. You know what I mean he's teaching you construction when you're at that other camp and stuff. But I'm sure that was both a blessing and a challenge.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, right.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, oh man, there were some moments. I mean, yeah, it was a blessing and a challenge. There were things about it that were so fun. We got so close, he and I, like, I remember when we started the camp I had a truck Little, and I had a pickup truck that everybody here knows as the Big Nasty. That truck still exists. It was a 1990 model Dodge truck with a 12-valve Cummins diesel in it, first generation of the, the Cummins diesel and Dodge trucks. You know we put half a million miles on that truck. We use that truck as a tractor, as a as a landscaping tool. You know we we built camp with that truck. The first phase of that was the only piece of equipment we had was my work truck and we were going to go in 1998. So we've been here a year and we decided to go to Wisconsin. Muggs still lived in Wisconsin. My executive partner, matt Jones my two executive partners at Snowbird are Matt Jones and Hank Parker, hank Parker Jr. So Matt Jones still lived in Wisconsin. He worked at a for-profit sports camp. A really elite, high-end professional athletes trained there.
Speaker 1:They were big hunters. We were going to go up and spend a week with them. We were going to grouse hunt, bird hunt. His dad's a big bird dog guy, beautiful rolling hill country in that part of Wisconsin. I'd never been up there. I'd been on a visit but I never spent time there. So we're going to go up and spend a week.
Speaker 1:So me, my father-in-law, my wife and and my mother-in-law all four are going to drive up there in this truck called the big nasty single cab truck, not an extended cab single bench seat. And so I went to big d's little's granddad, who I mentioned earlier. He was a junk man. He was a fred sanford kind of guy. He had, he had just. He had a bunch of old chicken houses full of just. He just swapped and traded and sold junk.
Speaker 1:And I found a. I found a popper shell, that a camper shell that would go on that truck that I could make work, and I got it to fit and we built a. We put a piece of plywood, built a bed in the back of that, rolled out, made like a pallet, put a mattress in there. What we're going to do is the two guys are going to sit in the front and drive through the night and when we needed to take a nap we'd jump in the back of the truck and the girls would drive. And so four of us in a single cab pickup truck with a camper shell it doesn't fit, and a piece of plywood turned into a bunk bed and we'd slid all of our gear under that plywood.
Speaker 1:And so we start out riding up the road and the girls start out in the back and we're gonna, we leave. I remember my brother had a football game. He played at western carolina, so we leave. They played at wofford, which is woffofford is in Spartanburg, south Carolina. So we drive from Andrews, from here in that truck opposite direction of Wisconsin. Yep, we drive three hours, two and a half, two and a half three hours over to Spartanburg, South Carolina, watch my brother's football game, leave Spartanburg, south Carolina and head north to go to Wisconsin.
Speaker 1:And the girls are laying in the back of the truck and remember we're going through indiana. It's like three in the morning and they're banging on the door because the rain was. It was raining and that camper leaked. So we pull into a truck, stop, buy a bunch of plastic bags and and bail up all of our belongings because they're going to get wet in the back of this truck and then all four of us cram in the front of that truck and we drive from indiana to northern wisconsin. Four wide and he was like you know, he's a big dude, I mean a big dude's understatement.
Speaker 1:So we're slammed in this truck. So we had adventures like that and the early days of camp. We made a commitment that if anybody came to snowbird we would go to their church and visit them and so we would have a church. Come to snowbird and then within the next month or two, the four of us would go to that church on a wednesday night and be with their youth or sunday morning, and a lot of times he was getting to preach in churches on sunday mornings because he was an evangelist. He'd done a lot of traveling and preaching and so we just we we not only built the camp together, but we did all the behind the scenes stuff going to church. You know, nowadays a lot of us go and speak in churches or at events and it's great, but it's not what it was back then. Back then it was survival. It was like we have to cultivate, oh, a group. Okay, how do we now really cultivate that relationship?
Speaker 1:so that we can keep them coming and keep building and developing a partnership, because we really were committed to the mission the Lord had given us, which was to equip and partner with the church. And it was me and him. A lot of times it's just the two of us. Usually the girls went with us because Little and I didn't have kids those first three years and so we had so many great memories building the camp those first few years together and then all the construction we did just the three of us me and him and Little did the construction. And we had another lady that was living here and working with us at the time. Her name was Lou and she little, and I had really taken her in and she came from a past of abuse and she was our age and she lived here with us and and uh, so it was just really the four of us building the camp and, um, little's mom would do just like office stuff.
Speaker 1:We have so many memories just carved into the property there. I can't go anywhere and not see memories from those early days. But yeah, there were times I can remember, multiple. I think I've shared some of these with you. I can remember a couple of specific, we're in each other's face. I don't know how it didn't come to blows, you know, because he was. He was a hot-tempered man, I was a hot-tempered dude, and you know, you're just, we're both super intense yeah we're very intense people and um.
Speaker 1:So there was time where and you think people might think how, why were you in each other's faces? Oh, we didn't agree on something or we were pat. We're both just hard charging, passionate people and they were just when you're living and serving that close to somebody. I mean, we were 24 7 building this thing, we're breathing it. Every facet of life is connected. We're eating half of our meals together, um, and I'm thankful, and I tell young couples, little and I, the first three years we were married we didn't live near either of our parents. So when we moved here to start the camp, we had three years of marriage, doing ministry at the other camp and and not having our parents around. So we were, we were good, we were solid together as a couple and I think that's you know, we could, we could do that. But it was intense man, it was something and a lot of it was one of the first. One of the first moments of real tension was we were, we were I've probably told this story on nsr before, but we're we're in our first moments of real tension was we were.
Speaker 1:I've probably told this story on NSR before, but we're in our first year of this thing and we had brought a guy onto our board of directors. There was a third partner that was going to as we were forming the board it was me and Kahuna and another guy named Tom. That was going to be the third partner and he and Kahuna had worked in church ministry together. So Snowbird was going to be the third partner and he and Kahuna had worked in church ministry together, so Snowbird was going to be started by the three of us. And this is another reason I wasn't going to preach. Tom and Kahuna were going to do all the preaching they're both preachers and I wasn't. Well, tom had his, his primary financial supporter that was funding him being in the work, so Tom was fully funded.
Speaker 1:Well, I was shooing horses and hanging drywall on the side. I was working for a guy clearing land, so I worked on Mondays in a local shop doing tire changes, oil changes, front end alignments, so I worked Mondays in town. Little was working a part-time job. I was, uh, making money on the side running a chainsaw. I'm a blacksmith farrier by trade, so I'm shooing horses. And this guy, tom, good dude, but he raised his support and he was just full-time with snowbird. Well, there wasn't no snowbird yet, we ain't got kids coming yet.
Speaker 1:My buddy, rob hester, had brought some kids, who I mentioned, and this guy brings in a man named Jim. I won't say his last name, but Jim was a very wealthy, multimillionaire businessman out of Atlanta and he wanted to put up I don't know a million bucks up front and build the first phase of camp out, which back then we could have done for a million bucks. It was going to be like a lodge, a swimming pool, some basketball courts and enough to bring 60 kids in at a time, and he was going to fund it. But he wanted to have, you know, a seat. He wanted to be chairman of our board of directors. Well, he hadn't.
Speaker 1:The vision didn't come to him while he was clearing for a lake in southwest virginia five years earlier, trying. This had been forged in our hearts from a different place and this guy rolls in praise the Lord. He loved the vision, but he's like, oh, yeah, and what it was? He had always wanted to build some sort of a retreat center. So I think he thought, well-intentioned, he could partner up with us, but he wanted control of it. It didn't sync up with what I saw as our vision, and so kahuna and I had a pretty sharp disagreement because kahuna realized and and I feel for kona here because he was trying to raise he was doing the fundraising yep so he wasn't working secondary jobs, he was going out and trying to raise money.
Speaker 1:I was working to pay my own way in life while we started to build the camp and and then this guy comes in and says I'll fund it all. But here's the caveat we're going to do it this way. But I knew we had a heart for how we wanted to run the ministry. We had a vision for what we wanted the mission of Snowbird to be, and it didn't sync up Pretty sharp disagreements. And I remember having a conversation where I told him if this is the direction we go, now's the time to decide it. And I'm out. Not, this isn't a threat, I'm leaving. It's like that's okay, but that's not what I want to be a part of, and so I'll just dip out, I'll stay in the area and help where I can, but I'm not going to, I'm not going to get on board with this.
Speaker 1:And and we you know, and we worked through it and Kahuna then there was a point where he said yeah, this is definitely not the fit, we don't want to do this. And we told that guy no, we're not interested in the partnership. So he withdrew his monthly support and said well, I'm going to go in a different direction. And then that guy Tom left with him, so it left me and Kahuna. I'm going to go in a different direction. And then that guy Tom left with him, so it left me in Kahuna. And I remember there was this oh, we just lost our one big donor, monthly donor, and that was the first year of Snowbird's existence, but then the next it was like within a month, a guy stepped up and gave us a $25,000 donation and said I want you to build a cabin with this. So we built our first cabin and bought two outfitters tents off of that. So that was, things like that were tents so good.
Speaker 3:Super intense. But I think too, like you know, two things that stick out to me. While you shared one, you know, snowbird, I feel like has always stayed so grounded, and you, you know, I don't even know if you realize, even in sharing it, like how principled you guys were in your decision-making, like the Lord had given us a vision, and you're like no, this is the vision and direction. You know and and I mean anybody listening you know, if you're in ministry or just life, the temptation to go the financial side because it would be easier and you need money side because it would be easier and you need money.
Speaker 3:We're not saying we can't you can't build a camp without money, but, you know, trusting the Lord's direction that he gives you, you know, and saying no to that, that's you know, that's I can understand, that challenge, you know.
Speaker 3:And then you guys still being on board and being united. And I thought it was interesting too because you know the early days of Snowbird, you guys going to all those churches together with Big Kahuna, and just, you know, if you come up here, you know, in the summer, and you know when we can, in the retreat season, we'll have fires together and youth pastors come to the fire. And it's such a relational ministry at its core and all aspects. And you know, it's not just a, you know one of our core values, but there's this relational side that I think people fall in love with. Because even as me, as a youth pastor, I remember coming up here and just feeling like man those are my brothers in Christ and I felt a genuine care, you know like, oh, you know I could have these conversations in ministry that you can't really have, you know. And so it's interesting to hear where that kind of was birthed, you know, and how it's just a part of you know the story.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean. And, um, that guy, rob Hester, he's the first person that ever said to me and I've used this line with other people and I've heard other people say it but he said, hey, man, don't ever. How did he say it? He said don't ever change. He said be sanctified but don't ever change. You're a unique person and God has gifted you and built you to do this, to carry out this call. And that kind of freed me up to just say, okay, my hand's on the plow, I ain't turning left or right, we know what. I was so sure of the calling and still am to this day. I have no question in my mind what we're supposed to be doing.
Speaker 3:Man, a question came to my mind because you know, early days you guys are building it together. You know you both gave your life to this ministry. You're doing everything together, so you're close and there's the family dynamic and you know, I don't know if you could, I don't even know the question I want to ask but there was such a healthy transition from Big Kahuna. You know, because I know he kind of led the camp and then eventually he steps away and you can't. You took over and you know, a lot of times when there's on the outside, when it seems like there's a seamless transition, you might not realize everything, but it just seemed like, oh, yep, and that's how it's supposed to be and how it was. You know it was so good, is it? You know, I don't know, is there? Can you give me some insight in that, how you guys transition?
Speaker 1:yeah, so well, I guess I don't know if that's the right question well, it's cool to hear you say that it seemed seamless from the outside because it was rough. It was hard, I mean it was. There was a lot going on. It's hard to talk about because I want to make sure you know he went to be with the Lord in 22. I'll make sure his memory is honored. But he was going through some personal difficulties, marriage difficulties and family stuff outside of Little and I but within his family, and there was a point where it was like, okay, the plan of succession. We always knew that it was always that he and I were doing it together and he was. He was the leader. I was a 25 year old dude when we started it, he was a 48 year old dude or whatever 45 year old guy. And so then we moved as, as we started to grow, we started to talk about the transition, of me taking over. I hate to use the word taking over stepping into that leadership, that CEO president role.
Speaker 1:But, like any man, when it came time for him to step aside, I think it was premature in his mind. It felt premature. I think he wanted to go further and longer, stay more in it. But he had a host of medical problems and then he had some. There was some struggle going on I don't want to be careful how I word that, you know, but there was some personal struggle within his marriage, within his home and within his family. And I just remember he and I having some hard conversation where I just said listen, it's okay, it's okay, let's, let's help you finish. Well, let's help you, let's help you retire and finish this part of the race. And so how do we do this so that you are honored, the integrity of the ministry is on, is is intact, and and we create a plan of succession and transfer of leadership, not just to me, but let's bring in a team. I said I always called him Biggin, so everybody called him the Big Kahuna. I called him Biggin and I said Biggin, I don't want to be a one-man, I don't want to be a ministry that rides on the shoulders of one dude. I don't ever want to be a celebrity pastor ministry and so I want to build a team as we're preparing for you to move out and exit.
Speaker 1:And so that was where Jeff Cole was a guy that came in who know our listeners aren't going to know that name, but I'm thankful for Jeff Cole, who's a brother who is now in the full he's full-time military service. But he was a, he was a CPA, was an accountant, and we needed somebody to step in and get us moving in the right direction financially, with financial accountability, responsibility and decision making. And so Jeff came on board and guided that season and Matt Jones Muggs that was the guy I wanted. I was like I want that guy to come partner with me on this, because I trust Matt Jones is 100% comfortable behind the scenes. He is literally a brilliant mind when it comes to operations admin from spread. You know we give him so much grief about his spreadsheets. You know he's a spreadsheet guy, but he's got man, he's got. He's so organized, he's so categorized.
Speaker 1:And we needed that because Kahuna and I were both just wild shoot from the hip visionaries and a lot of things were chaotic, and so we were able to say, hey, as you transition into retirement, let's bring someone in that can come alongside Jeff Cole in the next season, what we would call phase two, which I think lasted from him starting to transition out in the late 2000s and really was done. The last time he ever preached was, I think, 2011. But as he's transitioning out, that second phase of Snowbird's growth I think was from then to COVID and I think we're now in the third big phase. So, saying all that to say it was very difficult and it means a lot to hear that that was not perceived from the outside. Because we worked, I lost so much sleep, I had health issues as a result of the tension and stress of all that.
Speaker 1:I ended up hospitalized at one point with some heart stuff and the doctor said this is 100% stress related. And ended up with a cardiologist and having to see that person regularly for for a season of life, and so, um, it means a lot that it was a smooth transition and uh, yeah, the Lord blessed it.
Speaker 3:Yeah Well, I appreciate you just sharing that, cause I I I've experienced that where I you know being in ministry as long, I've been in seasons where I've literally had health issues as a result of the stress and the pressure and you're wanting to do it well. You know what I mean. And even if you do it well and you're a man of integrity and it doesn't mean it's smooth, In fact, if you're doing it well and you're being a man of integrity, it's probably a rougher road.
Speaker 3:You know, just that's real. I just want to highlight one thing, because I remember you and Spencer and Rob we were talking outside and you were talking about. You know just the anointing, in a sense, that Big Kahuna had on his life and ministry and how I forget the exact story. But there was a group that came in and y'all were like man, we just need Big Kahuna to preach this one. And he came in there and just I mean just laid the word down and it just shifted the environment. You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, he only had about so Big Kahuna one of the reasons he had to eventually transition out. So he transitioned out of the day-to-day or the week-in, week-out preaching. He started transitioning that first summer, in 2001, that I preached. I did one sermon and he did the rest. Then the next summer is when we went to the model where I would do the evenings, he would do the mornings, so he would do four, I would do five, I would do the evenings, he would do the mornings, so he would do four, I would do five, I would do the five evening services. And then that was the rhythm we kept for the next few years.
Speaker 1:He stepped away, took a sabbatical for some personal stuff in 05, and I did all the preaching. That was the first year I had Rob preach one sermon and Spencer preach one sermon, and then I did seven, I think. And so that was when we started to build a teaching team. And that's when I was like okay, I want to build a team of teachers and I've never wanted it to be a one guy. You know what I mean. Like one dude is like the guy. When people come to Snowbird, they're like oh, we get to go in here, pastor so-and-so. Come to Snowbird. They're like, oh, we get to go in here, pastor so-and-so, brody's going to be the guy that people I mean my mom was here last week visiting for the day and we had a Christian you know large group of oh, it was when Southside was here, so we had a group of church here two weekends, three weekends ago, and my mom walks in and sits down beside some kids at a meal and my mom's crazy and fun and goofy and wild and she's like hey, guys, and she's talking to him. She said I'm brody's mom and there's a kid in that youth group named brody and they're like what? And they were so confused and she's like no, brody the preacher, and they didn't know who I was. It was like case in point, like that's perfect, um, and there's a time where the lord uses, there's some people that connect with your name and yes, know you, and then the Lord uses that, but I don't. But anyway, so as we grew and when he and I were sharing in the preaching and and it started to get to the point where he wasn't going to preach anymore, part of it was he only had about seven. He had about seven sermons that he just did over and over and over, which is that's kind of what evangelists do Like.
Speaker 1:Most evangelists will prepare a series of sermons, maybe each year. And for those that don't know, an evangelist what I mean by that is what John and I understand that to be is a person that goes around and preaches, guest preaches at conferences and events, and back in those days there was no internet. Now, if an evangelist is going around preaching, you gotta be careful, because every his same sermon will end up on youtube 50 times. Yeah, but evangelists go and preach the same sermon at every conference for five years. So kahuna had had like a quiver full of sermons and they were bangers. I mean, they were good, he was dynamic in his delivery and his illustrations and his personality and he's and he's physically imposing, but he only had seven sermons and he would preach a masterfully.
Speaker 1:But there was a point where it's no bird. It was like I said I remember having a conversation where I was like Megan, you gotta, I need you to prepare new sermons this year, all new sermons, and it was like, oh man, this is going to be hard. And. And it was like, oh man, this is going to be hard. And so he ended up just doing two or three sermons and we filled that extra one in because he wasn't a week-to-week pastor preacher the dynamic you're talking about, his sermons most of us could quote him.
Speaker 1:He had preached them so many times. His sermon on the 23rd Psalm, he walked through Philip Keller's book A Shepherd Looks at the 23rd Psalm and that's how he prepared it. He prepared that sermon on the 23rd Psalm. He walked through Philip Keller's book. A shepherd looks at the 23rd Psalm and that's how he prepared it. He prepared that sermon in the eighties. The last time I heard him preach that I bet it was the 1000th time he had preached it and it was almost, it was verbatim every time but it was so good Like I literally never got tired of listening to it because he was an anointed communicator and he and he believed it as much the 1000th time as he did the 100th time.
Speaker 1:And the scripture says god calls some to be evangelists and that people argue well, that means a gift of personal evangelism. But I mean, I think god calls some people to be that style of preacher that kahuna was. And so there were times in the story you're talking about we had this group, christian school group and that and just those are the toughest students to preach to, because they've heard it a thousand times and they have chapel service twice a week and they have bible every day and they just kind of fold their arms and slump, slump, you know, slump down in the seat, kind of hunch over and just like they're not impressed. And and these kids were. It was a Christian school that was. I don't think any of the kids were true believers and it was a school from. It was the guy that was here, that was their leader. He wanted to be their buddy. He was a young guy and it was a school. It was a senior class of it was less than 20 kids and we were frustrated.
Speaker 1:Each of us had taught and Kahuna was kind of retired at this point. I mean, he had stopped preaching and I remember just calling him up and saying, hey, you come over here and preach the shepherd sermon to these kids. And I gave him the context Christian school. I don't think any of them are saved, they've heard it all. And he came over and he preached and he had a meeting out of his hand. Man, he would, he would bring thunder and lightning and firestorm and then he'd be crying over the same illustration he had told a hundred times and it would bring him to tears. He was such an emotional, visceral person and god used it.
Speaker 3:It was powerful and yeah, those kids man, they just god changed those kids lives through him preaching that time man praise god for you know, when you have a conversation like that, you see how God has had his hand, you know, on this ministry in different seasons and use different people. And you know praise God for Big Kahuna and his life and his investment in this ministry in that season, because we wouldn't be here. We wouldn't be here, no, wouldn't be here.
Speaker 1:We wouldn't be here. No, wouldn't be here without him. We would not exist. Without him Would not exist. Well, I'm sitting here now, right smack dab in the middle of camp. Our work day is winding down and the wind has picked up, leaves are falling. It's just. I, just I'm so nostalgic listening to that, thinking about that.
Speaker 1:Um, the story of snowbird, how it started, where we you know where we've come from just good, fun, early stories, um of god's favor and grace, and it was meaningful for me and hope it was for for you as a listener. Um, if you're new and you stumbled across this, go to sw outfitterscom and check out who we are and what we do. Snowbird Wilderness Outfitters exists to proclaim the gospel of Jesus Christ through the exposition of Scripture and personal relationships in order to equip the church, to disciple and ground folks in the teaching of Scripture, to develop leaders, to train men and women. And we're thrilled to be here and God's favor is on this ministry, so check it out. It might be an event that we're getting ready to do in the upcoming months that maybe you'd come and join us for Got men's events coming up, marriage events coming up, women's events coming up, college event and tons of student ministry opportunities, so check us out. We'll come back next time and finish part two.
Speaker 2:Thanks for listening to no Sanity Required. Please take a moment to subscribe and leave a rating. It really helps. Visit us at SWOutfitterscom to see all of our programming and resources, and we'll see you next week on no Sanity Required.
