Guardians of the Green: How Harford Land Trust is Shaping Our Future with Kristin Kirkwood

In this episode of "Conversations with Rich Bennett," Rich sits down with Kristin Kirkwood, the executive director of Harford Land Trust. Kristin shares the inspiring story of how the Trust was founded in 1991 by a group of passionate citizens dedicated to preserving the natural beauty of Harford County. She delves into the Trust's grassroots beginnings, its significant achievements in land conservation, and the innovative ways they raise funds to protect vital landscapes. Kristin also highlights the crucial role of community involvement and the importance of educating the public about the value of land preservation. Tune in to learn how Harford Land Trust is making a lasting impact on our environment and future.

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Transcript

Rich Bennett 0:00
Thanks for joining the conversation today. I am sitting here with Christine Kirkwood. She is the executive director of Harvard Land Trust. So those of you in Harvard County will probably find a lot of interest in this. Those of you in all the other countries and states, you're probably going to get a lot of interest in this, too, because of your area doesn't have anything like this. It's very definitely look into it 

because it's amazing what Harvard Land Trust does here. So, first of all, how are you doing, Christine? 

Kristin Kirkwood 0:34
I'm. Well, thank you for having me today. 

Rich Bennett 0:35
So let's just get right into, first of all, the history of Heartland Trust. When did it start? How did it come about? And which, of course, you guys do. 

Kristin Kirkwood 0:46
So Harvard Land Trust was founded in 1991. It was very much a grassroots effort by a group of citizens initially focused in the Churchville area. So Johnston Hagaman was our founder. He and others were very tired of just watching some of our most pristine landscapes really be carved up, a lot of them for residential subdivisions in mostly the sixties and seventies and into the eighties. And they felt like there wasn't a lot of concerted planning efforts to go around. 

Rich Bennett 1:15
Right. 

Kristin Kirkwood 1:16
Also, they had tried various other interventions with decision makers and it wasn't really going anywhere. At that time, the Nature Conservancy, which is an international land trust. 

Rich Bennett 1:27
Okay? 

Kristin Kirkwood 1:27
Here international listeners was really coming into prominence and Johnston was learning about that and he thought, Well, why can't we do something like that here? Let's look at this like a business. Let's 

Rich Bennett 1:39
Yeah. 

Kristin Kirkwood 1:39
start an organization, let's raise the money. Let's stop asking other people to protect these landscapes and let's do it ourselves. 

Rich Bennett 1:45
And that was in 91. 

Kristin Kirkwood 1:46
That was in 1991. So he got a group of other citizens together that with different disciplines. There was Dr. Kreider, there was Peter Jay, who was a renowned columnist for the Baltimore. 

Rich Bennett 1:57
Yeah. 

Kristin Kirkwood 1:58
Time on the record and the ages at 

Rich Bennett 2:00
Mm. 

Kristin Kirkwood 2:00
different points got them all together. And interestingly, there wasn't one catalytic project or property that they really thought, This is we need to be on the front foot of things which. 

Rich Bennett 2:12
Right. 

Kristin Kirkwood 2:12
Together. Let's figure out how to start a land trust. It was pretty much John said, I'll sort out the business side of it. So they said, okay, fine. Then you're president, Peter. 

Rich Bennett 2:23
He was volun told 

Kristin Kirkwood 2:24
Peter was going to work on getting some other board members. He became vice president. 

Rich Bennett 2:27
God. 

Kristin Kirkwood 2:28
So then they really got to work. David Miller, thankfully, was the first executive director. He had actually worked for some other land trusts just over the line in Pennsylvania and things at the state level as well. And so he actually had a lot of the technical knowledge around these real estate transactions. So we'd always had that one paid staff person. But they just started truly as a grassroots nonprofit with no money. Interesting way when David was having his kitchen sink fixed, his plumber was under the the sink and he was telling him about this new organization that was started. And he was Mr. Crothers, who was based in Harriman. And he said, you know, we're actually having something going on right now with this beloved lake that we have there and all the green space around it is going to be developed. So David and the other founders thought this is a perfect place for us to start because they wanted to really root the land trust in a landscape that was very much populated by people. They didn't want to be pigeonholed into being seen as just something for people in the rural parts of the county. So they then worked very closely with the forest greens. Perryman Community Association to protect what is now the forest greens like preserve. So that was about 114 acres that they were. 

Rich Bennett 3:42
Wow. 

Kristin Kirkwood 3:43
Buy from the developer and then protected it and sold it to the county. So that's a county park. We have since protected numerous other properties in Perriman, the most recent of which was last year. We sold an additional 32 acres onto the park that we had purchased five years ago to the county to expand that park system down. 

Rich Bennett 4:03
Okay. 

Kristin Kirkwood 4:04
So pretty much everything that's preserved down on the Paramount Peninsula is from Harper Lee and trust work. So that was really how we started. And just as an example, I'll say the price that was paid over 30 years ago for that property, you know, it was paltry compared to what it would be now, the 

Rich Bennett 4:21
Right. 

Kristin Kirkwood 4:21
land prices. So we always like to say land preservation is an investment. It's not an expense. And when you look at how land is appreciated, you would just wish that we had done it one year before and one year before that 

Rich Bennett 4:31
Yeah. 

Kristin Kirkwood 4:32
because it would have been cheaper then. 

Rich Bennett 4:33
Yeah. It's funny you mentioned about how they were looking. It was you said, I think the sixties, seventies and eighties about the building and I'll never forget this. 

I can't remember when it was and I think it was in the Aegis, but there was an article written up about how Harford County is going to have to change its name to Harford City because of the way they were building up everywhere. And at the time, I think it may have been Bel Air at the time. That they started building off. 

Kristin Kirkwood 5:05
Yes, 

Rich Bennett 5:05
Then, of course, they moved down south 

Kristin Kirkwood 5:08
right. 

Rich Bennett 5:08
and then north. Everywhere else. 

Kristin Kirkwood 5:12
Right. 

Rich Bennett 5:13
Do you have any idea how much since Harvard Land Trust was started, how much land they were? Serve. 

Kristin Kirkwood 5:21
Well in the county. In total, we have a little over 64,000 acres of privately preserved land and about 18,000 in public parkland. 

Rich Bennett 5:30
Wow. 

Kristin Kirkwood 5:30
And I did bring for you I'm on our Web site, which is Harper Land Trust dot org. We recently released a report called the State of Land Preservation in Harford County. 

Rich Bennett 5:39
Okay. 

Kristin Kirkwood 5:40
We worked on that for over a year with one of the foremost academics in land preservation. He's out of the University of Pennsylvania to compile a lot of data to really tell the story of this. So the story does really. Before her for land trust in the state of Maryland. We were a national leader in the concept of land preservation. So the first was what's called the Maryland Environmental Trust, 

Rich Bennett 6:04
Mm. 

Kristin Kirkwood 6:04
where landowners could buy without receiving compensation. It was the donation basis. They could permanently preserve their property. And when I say that, what I mean is that you as a landowner, there's a legal concept called the bundle of sticks. This dates back to England. So when you own 

Rich Bennett 6:22
Okay. 

Kristin Kirkwood 6:22
a piece of property, you think, Well, what does that mean? What rights do you have on it? And it's a bundle of sticks. You could sell one of those sticks, which is maybe your mineral mineral rights. 

Rich Bennett 6:31
Right. 

Kristin Kirkwood 6:31
So we hear about this a lot in the West. In the west, you also hear about your water rights. Here we have things like zoning, which takes away some of your sticks. You don't have infinite possibilities on your property. You can also then voluntarily extinguish burn, we'll say, some of those sticks in there. So you could say I permanently, you know, do not want further subdivision of this property. I am extinguishing that right. And you can do that in our country and that gets recorded in the permanent real property records, the land records, they call it, of Harford County. And when you transfer property, people always say, Oh, I got a title report of the title. 

Rich Bennett 7:10
Right. 

Kristin Kirkwood 7:10
My settlement company, that's one. They'll go and say, Oh, was there a loan on the property or different things like that. Those things which are called conservation easements will come up. So that is a perpetual or permanent 

restriction on the land. So that's what we mean when we say privately land conservation. 

Rich Bennett 7:29
Okay? 

Kristin Kirkwood 7:30
64,000 acres in our county are protected in that way. But all the normal things that you would think about with farming, residential living, enjoyment of the property. Passing it on to heirs, selling the property all continues to be permissible. The major things that are restricted is extensive. Subdivision 

Rich Bennett 7:50
Mm hmm. 

Kristin Kirkwood 7:50
and extensive buildings, which typically have to do with other commercial activity on it. And that really is because we want to concentrate those more intensive uses into certain areas. 

Rich Bennett 8:01
Right. 

Kristin Kirkwood 8:02
If you think if we're sprawling everywhere, the Sierra Club is to have a phrase of sprawl hurts us all because it is death by a thousand cuts. If we are just sprawling everywhere and I always like to say that everyone deserves a safe place to live. But people do not need to live everywhere. 

Rich Bennett 8:20
True. 

Kristin Kirkwood 8:21
Right. And 

Rich Bennett 8:22
Yeah. 

Kristin Kirkwood 8:22
if we think about what is the golden goose of Harford County, right where we are on the bay, we are on the Susquehanna, these major waterbodies. We also are very close to these major cities. Our location is so prime. 

Rich Bennett 8:35
Yeah. 

Kristin Kirkwood 8:35
Our beautiful landscape, our agricultural heritage, our waterfront heritage, all of those things are the golden goose. They are totally unmatched by anything else around us. But if we really are just slicing and dicing this to oblivion, 

Rich Bennett 8:51
Mm. 

Kristin Kirkwood 8:51
we are killing the golden goose. So. 

Rich Bennett 8:54
I like the way you put that. Yeah, that's. Wow. 

Kristin Kirkwood 8:59
Yeah. So in addition to that, work with private landowners, we have always done a tremendous amount of work with park creation. 

Rich Bennett 9:06
Yeah. 

Kristin Kirkwood 9:06
So a lot of the parks in the county that are beloved, such as falling branch or Kilgore Falls, that was one of our early projects in the nineties. 

Rich Bennett 9:13
Really? 

Kristin Kirkwood 9:13
That was us. Yeah, that was going to be sold privately. The state was quite interested in that, but the wheels of government turned very slowly. They could not get it together. And that's oftentimes in Harford Land trust ups. And we can be more flexible and nimble. We can get things under contract, We can take out loans. In that instance, we worked very closely with the students at North Harford High School with their ecology club. That was truly where kids were giving their lunch money, talking to their parents. The middle school put on the orchestral concert to raise money for it. 

Rich Bennett 9:46
Really? 

Kristin Kirkwood 9:47
We got a lot of attention. We were able to get under contract and then we provided some of the Gap funding through these efforts to make sure that that was part of the state park system. So that was one of ours. We've doubled the size of it and MIL, as well as the new DC Light Estuary Center preserve things on Eckington Peninsula, including most recently the Bellevue farm right next to. 

Rich Bennett 10:09
Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. 

Kristin Kirkwood 10:11
Which has a full mile of Chesapeake Bay coastline. We purchase that. We also there's only one state forest in Harford County Stoney Demonstration forest. 

Rich Bennett 10:20
Really? 

Kristin Kirkwood 10:21
We in the past few years, we added an additional 905 acres to that. And I could go on and on with Parks, the newest park here in the Georgetown area. So a lot of times people know us for that park work. And the more quiet work is the private land preservation. And so I like to say that we have touched just about all the different permutations of land preservation in this county. 

Rich Bennett 10:44
How? Because you guys are 523 

Kristin Kirkwood 10:46
Correct. 

Rich Bennett 10:46
So how in the world do you guys raise your money? Because I unless I've missed it, I don't see you guys really putting on events. 

Kristin Kirkwood 10:54
It's hard. We. 

Rich Bennett 10:55
Well, I know it's all hard. Yeah. 

Kristin Kirkwood 10:57
Yeah, it's very hard. We do hold events, but we have found that events are not only important for obviously raising your funds, 

Rich Bennett 11:05
Yeah. 

Kristin Kirkwood 11:05
but building your community around you. But, you know, a well put on event takes a huge amount of time and effort. So we do we are a membership based organisation and we always have been. It doesn't mean that we say, you know, you pay $100 and you're a member. Any amount of money you donate in a year means that you are a member for that year. Then you receive some of our mailings, our publications, additional updates. 

Rich Bennett 11:28
So like what the historical society does. 

Kristin Kirkwood 11:30
Yeah, but again, we don't have membership levels per say. 

Rich Bennett 11:33
Okay. 

Kristin Kirkwood 11:34
We do have our Bellevue Circle, which is for donors that are able to contribute $1,000 or more in a year. And we try to really create a community around that donor circle. 

Rich Bennett 11:45
Okay. 

Kristin Kirkwood 11:45
And honestly, they are advisors to us. We have a lot of information exchange with them. They'll alert us to different things. So it's become a really important, you know, ear piece for us in the community. 

Rich Bennett 11:58
Right. 

Kristin Kirkwood 11:58
We do apply for grants as well. There are various grants that are through, whether it's foundations, groups like the Chesapeake Bay Trust. 

Rich Bennett 12:06
Mm. 

Kristin Kirkwood 12:07
There's a group called the Land Trust Alliance, or the National Fish and Wildlife Foundation. All of these groups we can apply for some grants for. We also a unique thing about the Harvard Land Trust is that, well, someone once said to me, you're like a nonprofit and a really complicated real estate office at the same time. We have always transacted in real estate, and in the early days we were the recipients of certain pieces of property where the donor gave us the property, but it was with the express understanding that we were going to sell that property and use the proceeds for our work. 

Rich Bennett 12:41
Okay. 

Kristin Kirkwood 12:41
We still do that, for example, legacy gifts. I was just on the phone this week with somebody that wants to put us in their will. They don't have anyone they want to give their residential home to, so they want to give it to us. Understanding that we will turn around and sell it and be able to use those proceeds for our work. 

Rich Bennett 12:58
Wow. That's amazing. I, I was always wondering about that as far as how you guys raised all the money. Because bin Laden's not cheap. 

Kristin Kirkwood 13:10
Well, yeah. 

Rich Bennett 13:11
We do. 

Kristin Kirkwood 13:12
You have. When our founder, John Hagaman, passed away, we started the Hagaman Land Fund. 

Rich Bennett 13:16
Okay. 

Kristin Kirkwood 13:17
And so we do have some money in there. And while it might sound a lot to the layperson right now, we have about $800,000 in there that really doesn't go very far in our four county. 

Rich Bennett 13:28
It can go quick, 

Kristin Kirkwood 13:29
Correctly. So most of what we use that for is the costs associated with buying in land. You think about the legal fees, the appraisals, the surveys, those sort of incidentals. Sometimes we're able to get money from other sources, and I can talk about that. But we're missing a little bit missing 100,000, missing 50,000. 

Rich Bennett 13:47
right? 

Kristin Kirkwood 13:48
We can access that pot from our land fund. And we do have that invested very, very conservatively to hopefully have those investments grow with that. But I think our somewhat higher board recently said they love how we are very good at spending other people's money. So in the state of Maryland, we're very, very lucky. That we have a few programs that we can draw from. So. One is called Maryland Program Open Space. So when land is bought and sold, there's the real estate transfer tax and a portion of that goes towards program open space, which has a lot of purposes, one of which is set aside. So any of the state park land that's purchased comes from that. 

Rich Bennett 14:27
Okay. 

Kristin Kirkwood 14:28
Our local parks and rec system can apply for things for, you know, maintenance, new playgrounds, different things like that. And so some of the big park purchases, we have been able to apply and have a portion of it from that pot. Some of that program, open space money gets allocated to the local jurisdictions, including the county, and that sort of gets built up in a pot for. 

Rich Bennett 14:52
Right. 

Kristin Kirkwood 14:52
The recent property in Japantown was co-financed through that state pot and local part of program open space. And also for over 15 years we have had a partnership with Aberdeen Proving Ground. 

Rich Bennett 15:03
Oh. 

Kristin Kirkwood 15:04
There is a military program called the Army Compatible Use Buffer Program that is a subset of a larger Department of Defense program because we have all of these very important military installations 

Rich Bennett 15:15
Yeah. 

Kristin Kirkwood 15:15
all. Country and what happens outside of the fence lines actually really impacts the mission inside. So here at EPG, think about it. They're jutting out on this peninsula pretty much in the middle of the bay, which is very environmentally sensitive land. So if they need to open a new range, take some trees down, they have to mitigate all of that off site. They're bound by the same rules as any developer would be. They also they do a lot of testing, all the big booms that we know is going on there. 

Rich Bennett 15:44
Windows in the house 

Kristin Kirkwood 15:45
That's 

Rich Bennett 15:45
and. 

Kristin Kirkwood 15:45
right. And so they have to minimize what they call incompatible development, which is broadly residential development. People do call and complain about the big booms, you know, my windows rattling, my baby's awake. This is horrible. And so the incompatible development off there, also the storm surges coming that are upstream, that are coming down, things like siltation, erosion, marsh movements are all major issues. There. So the Army compatible use buffer program, they partner with us as well as a group on the Eastern shore. That noise travels very far over the bay to Kent County and lower. 

Rich Bennett 16:24
Yeah, does. 

Kristin Kirkwood 16:25
So the Eastern Shore Land Conservancy is also a partner, and so we, with funding from them, are able to purchase properties and those private conservation easements I talked about. So our most recent park, the new Foster Branch Park in Japantown, was co-financed by the state funding, the local allocation of program, open space and funding from Aberdeen proving Ground and our privately raised funding for our time and expenses as well. 

Rich Bennett 16:50
Wow. 

Kristin Kirkwood 16:50
So we have to really look far and wide because the land prices here are such that almost never is one source enough. You have to bring from all different sources. 

Rich Bennett 17:01
Yeah. 

Kristin Kirkwood 17:01
A lot of these funders like to see their money matched through other sources as well. So we are lucky in that. But I tell people that I say no more than we say yes. When our phone rings about opportunities, we usually have to say no, not because each property is not worthy, 

Rich Bennett 17:16
Right. 

Kristin Kirkwood 17:17
but because there's simply not enough money. 

Rich Bennett 17:20
Speaking of Foster Branch, when I saw you at the Community Advisory. You mentioned something which blew me away about the number of different trees. 

Kristin Kirkwood 17:31
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 17:31
Foster branch. 

Kristin Kirkwood 17:32
Yeah. So. 

Rich Bennett 17:34
That. 

Kristin Kirkwood 17:36
Yeah, 

Rich Bennett 17:36
Wow. Tell everybody. Because, I mean, 

Kristin Kirkwood 17:38
sure. 

Rich Bennett 17:38
I just. 

Kristin Kirkwood 17:40
So Foster Branch Park is the newest county park here. It's 129 acres. So on Trimble Road, where we are right now, it broadly follows it up around to the north. It is adjacent to Copenhagen Park Foster branch. The waterway cuts down through it as well. And so that property is really too big sections. So the west and the east of the foster branch stream. So on the eastern side of it, the larger section of the property, that is an extremely rare habitat or ecosystem type known as a magnolia seepage bog or an acidic bog, not the bogs that we might think of around here with bog turtles or things like that. Not that kind of like bathtub, like water. It really has to do with the fault line. So here in Harford County, we're split between the coastal plain, which is the flatter part near the bay and the Piedmont. The more rolling hills. 

Rich Bennett 18:32
Well, we've been feeling some earthquakes lately. Okay. 

Kristin Kirkwood 18:35
So the faultline where that comes together is a very unique geology there. So it creates a very distinct plant community there. And so that will look a little bit more like if anybody's familiar with the New Jersey Pine Barrens or things. And really that fault line goes all the way from New Jersey kind of down to D.C.. But because I-95 is very much there, there's very little of it left in Maryland. 

Rich Bennett 18:58
While. 

Kristin Kirkwood 18:58
Anne Arundel County is pretty much the southern reaches of it. 

Rich Bennett 19:01
Right. 

Kristin Kirkwood 19:02
Kind of hops over Baltimore because that topography is a little bit different. And so this most likely is the only property left in Harford County like that. So it's a very distinct plant community. You know, you will see things like pitch pine, you will see magnolias, other things. So that again, means a very distinct insect community, very distinct bird community. So we're excited to get some biologists out there from the Maryland Department of Natural Resources to really assess that. 

Rich Bennett 19:27
Wow. 

Kristin Kirkwood 19:28
So that is extremely exciting. And that knowing that, you know, we have a whole host of advisors that support our work. And it was truly I talked to someone I knew from the Harvard Bird Club who alerted me to the uniqueness of this habitat, which really elevated it on our priority list. And then we were able to start devoting resources to digging around to see if something there was something that we could do. But that particular property had been fully subdivided. So even though it wasn't built yet, if you looked at the maps, the approvals through the county, it was all little boxes on the maps. It was already subdivided into 200 and about 230 homes with preliminary approval for an additional 35 for 265 total. So that whole forest would have been graded down. That would have had roads and single family homes there. And then the western portion of the stream very different, a lot flatter there. That was the basic farm. They were a vegetable 

Rich Bennett 20:24
Yes. 

Kristin Kirkwood 20:24
farm. That was our produce that was sold there off of the farm. The old farmhouse is still there. So what's so unique about yeah, it's really unusable at this point and hopefully be taken down. But what's really interesting about that portion is that that will be much more suitable for what we call active recreation. So if there needs to be, you know, any like a rec center, you'd have your parking there, you'd have fields, you know, your stroller trail, your picnic tables, where as the eastern side with the forest will stay passive, meaning walking trails. 

Rich Bennett 20:58
Yeah. 

Kristin Kirkwood 20:58
Yeah. And actually all of that, as part of our work, we ensure that things are permanently preserved. So even though it's a park, it also has one of these conservation easements and the real property record that specifies that. So you won't see in 50 years the county saying up, we need money, we're going to sell this now or we've changed our mind. That's going to be houses or we're going to put a school, a salt dome 

Rich Bennett 21:21
Protect 

Kristin Kirkwood 21:21
parking 

Rich Bennett 21:21
it. 

Kristin Kirkwood 21:21
lot. It is protected 

Rich Bennett 21:22
Good. 

Kristin Kirkwood 21:22
for public recreation. 

Rich Bennett 21:24
So with that, because that just amazes me. But the two fault lines. Is down here. Is it is it same thing up? Or is it a need to see light elsewhere? Did they have the same thing? 

Kristin Kirkwood 21:37
You will see some different points there, but it's more the coastal plain environment there. 

Rich Bennett 21:41
Okay. 

Kristin Kirkwood 21:42
So you'll see those hollies in the understory, you'll see beech, you'll see different pitched pines and things like that. For example, you don't see beech trees in the northern part of Harford County. So you think we're just one county, but we're very 

Rich Bennett 21:55
Yeah. 

Kristin Kirkwood 21:55
different in terms of specific. The plant communities are really and the underlying geology are what anchors. 

Rich Bennett 22:01
Right. 

Kristin Kirkwood 22:02
Ecosystems here. 

Rich Bennett 22:03
I'm just thinking maybe a good place for nature center to. 

Kristin Kirkwood 22:08
Yeah, there's a lot of possibilities there. 

Rich Bennett 22:10
Yeah. 

Kristin Kirkwood 22:10
Well, on that, I'll say another thing that we worked on for some time. A lot of people don't know how much land we own in Edgewood. We are one of the biggest landowners in Edgewood and one of the pieces that we do on a Willoughby Beach Road. 

Rich Bennett 22:22
He's going to say we'll be b. G 

Kristin Kirkwood 22:24
A few years ago, we sold that to the Isaac Walton League. There are two chapters in Harford County. So the Southern chapter here, and they are in the process of building what is going to be the Edgewood Conservation and Education Center. So somewhat of a nature 

Rich Bennett 22:38
o. 

Kristin Kirkwood 22:38
center there. So it also serve their purposes for their clubhouse. But it will have a laboratory, some meeting space. It's right down the road from Edgewood High and middle. So they're really hoping to serve that function for the Edgewood community. 

Rich Bennett 22:51
And I love going to the nature centers because. We just went to a this was in Pennsylvania Indian steps. I don't know. You ever been there. And we went on the the nature hike where they told us the different flowers and the which is the tree. 

Kristin Kirkwood 23:08
Yep. Yep. 

Rich Bennett 23:09
Which I didn't realize with them. They have to grow in groups and it will only be like one tree that has the fruit. 

Kristin Kirkwood 23:17
Yes. 

Rich Bennett 23:18
And I had laughter because he said the best time to eat the fruit is as when it's fallen from the tree before it hits the ground. 

Oh, okay. But to look at how much stuff was growing there that you could eat. 

Kristin Kirkwood 23:33
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 23:34
It just amazes me as an adult. I'm amazed. 

Kristin Kirkwood 23:37
Yeah, I. 

Rich Bennett 23:38
I know kids. Well, some kids probably wouldn't care, but some kids would be amazed. But as we get older, so we want to just fill our brains with more stuff. You. How much more we know. And would you mention with all the different, you know, all that different vegetation brings in different insect? 

Kristin Kirkwood 23:53
Mm hmm. 

Rich Bennett 23:54
Probably different wildlife all. And the Burj, I think, was it Mariner Point Park? I think they said because the photographers. 

Kristin Kirkwood 24:04
Mm hmm. 

Rich Bennett 24:05
Contrary. 

Kristin Kirkwood 24:06
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 24:07
I think he said 152 different species of birds. I've been photographed there. 

Kristin Kirkwood 24:12
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 24:12
It's amazing. 

Kristin Kirkwood 24:14
Yeah, in Harford County, specifically around the Swann Harbor area, 

Rich Bennett 24:17
Yeah. 

Kristin Kirkwood 24:18
that is a regional bird hotspot. That is the number one birding area, because not only do you have the, you know, forest interior dwelling species, the things like your bardell, your pileated woodpecker and, you know, warblers and things like that. You're also. Yeah, you're also going to have things that use those open farm fields. You're going to have all the migratory waterfowl that's there as well. Yeah. And so we are definitely at the Upper Bay here we are. Crown jewel. 

Rich Bennett 24:45
Yeah. 

Kristin Kirkwood 24:45
That's why protecting a lot of this land and so that we're not just suburbia that goes on and on and on is essential. And I think what you talked about to just the excitement of learning about the pawpaw underscores our work that we say that you can't really protect land and care for it if you don't understand it sometimes. First, just these little facts really open our eyes to things. It's just like during COVID, right when we were all stuck inside and isolated, a lot of people either discovered or rediscovered the outdoors during that time. And the data shows us they're not going back inside, nor would we all. 

Rich Bennett 25:18
Yeah. 

Kristin Kirkwood 25:19
I mean, in the Baltimore area state park, visitation was up, you know, 300%. And 

Rich Bennett 25:24
Wow. 

Kristin Kirkwood 25:25
the parks had trouble handling all the volume. Places like Patuxent State Park, I mean, you. Or perhaps go I think it was there was actually if you didn't get there on Saturday by like 1030 it was closed. 

Rich Bennett 25:37
Really? 

Kristin Kirkwood 25:38
Yeah. So what does it tell us? We just need more parks for people. We need 

Rich Bennett 25:41
Yeah. 

Kristin Kirkwood 25:42
more green space. We need, especially for youth, for mental health. As people age, we need to get outside. 

Rich Bennett 25:49
Bam. You just said it right there. Mental health. And we talk about that a lot because we cover mental health a lot. 

Kristin Kirkwood 25:54
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 25:54
Getting out, getting out in nature is good therapy. 

Kristin Kirkwood 25:58
Right. 

Rich Bennett 25:58
Well, I mean, look, I mean, people go out and do either yoga outside or even in meditation, but it's excellent. And something I love doing is just going outside, even if it's in my own front yard, just looking at the different birds. And it's cool when you come up. 

Kristin Kirkwood 26:14
Mm hmm. 

Rich Bennett 26:15
Hand. 

Kristin Kirkwood 26:15
Sure. 

Rich Bennett 26:17
And I always have to laugh because when people come down here, one of the biggest things they say about, Oh my God, you guys have black squirrels. Like I've never seen a black squirrel before. Really? We see them all the time. But just all the while, of course, we have the red fox. What's the other one? The silver or not? Grey Fox one is very rare to see, but it is around here. 

Kristin Kirkwood 26:42
Yeah, it's a different phase, but Red Fox is our common one. 

Rich Bennett 26:44
Yeah, that's a common one. Of course. You see the coyote, everyone. 

Kristin Kirkwood 26:48
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 26:48
But I just think if people would take more of it and I'm glad you guys here in Job Town, actually. How did you guys find out about that? 

Kristin Kirkwood 27:01
Well, I mean, we try our best through some of our mapping software to have a good pulse on some of the big open space properties, but 

Rich Bennett 27:09
Okay. 

Kristin Kirkwood 27:09
of which there are many. 

Rich Bennett 27:10
Yeah. 

Kristin Kirkwood 27:10
So we can't you know, we like to be as proactive as possible, but a lot of our work is reactive. Something's happening. Someone calls us, someone alerts us on this particular property. Like I said, someone I know from the Harvard Bird Club said to me, Have you guys ever looked into this? This is such an important forest that's 

Rich Bennett 27:26
Mm hmm. 

Kristin Kirkwood 27:26
there. I started looking into it and believe it or not, if we don't have a point of contact, I do a lot of cold calling. I send letters, 

Rich Bennett 27:35
Do you? 

Kristin Kirkwood 27:35
I call. 

Rich Bennett 27:36
Good for you. 

Kristin Kirkwood 27:37
I have had a lot of people that just don't respond that hang up on us. I think there's 

Rich Bennett 27:43
There's 

Kristin Kirkwood 27:43
a misunderstanding. You know, when they hear land trust, they assume it's all charitable. And so the 

Rich Bennett 27:49
first 

Kristin Kirkwood 27:49
first thing 

Rich Bennett 27:50
thing, 

Kristin Kirkwood 27:50
I have to stop them and say is that, no, no, you know, we do have money where we will find money 

Rich Bennett 27:55
right? 

Kristin Kirkwood 27:55
to pay you for this in this instance, I cannot give the landowners enough credit. So it was the Salvo and Vickers 

Rich Bennett 28:01
Yeah. 

Kristin Kirkwood 28:01
families and in particular Kirk Salvo I worked with from the beginning. And, you know, by his own admission, he chuckled that it took a little while for him to take us seriously because we also like to say to people, our conversations are confidential. 

Rich Bennett 28:14
Mm. 

Kristin Kirkwood 28:14
You know, we are not going to be there at a county council meeting opposing your development. For us, that closes doors. People don't want to talk to us then. So we said, we respect your private landowner rights. We want to introduce you to other options that you have. We want to explain the conservation value and the money around it, like we want an opportunity to make our pitch. So I first came to the site to visit it with Kirk Salvo and one of my staff. We were just blown away by what we were seeing on the site. Even in the interior of the forest, there's very little invasive species which you normally see, you know, you see or multi flora was, you see your honeysuckle. There was great like club moss and ferns and things on the forest floor which you just. 

Rich Bennett 28:57
Really? 

Kristin Kirkwood 28:58
Always see. So we, of course, were very excited, but they were all but shovel ready. They had their approvals, it was platted. They were ready to roll. But development is not cheap. It's not quick. 

Rich Bennett 29:13
Yeah. 

Kristin Kirkwood 29:13
Yeah, it was also around the time of there was some controversial developments going on across the county and it took some time, but we were able to talk about the type of money we thought we could bring from the different partners, the speed at which we could do it. How when you look at the time value of money, they would pretty much come out equal at the end. 

Rich Bennett 29:35
Yeah. 

Kristin Kirkwood 29:35
And then we really some people, you know, they they are from this communities are very much interested in the health of the community. 

Rich Bennett 29:45
Right. 

Kristin Kirkwood 29:46
So we were able to talk a lot about the opportunity for public access and parkland. Both families had had long involvement in youth sports coaching and supporting and that really spoke to them in all honesty. So we're just extremely lucky that they were great partners. That is not the norm. I'll say that we have succeeded on other properties. For example, the expansion of Stoney demonstration forest that was bought out of a bankruptcy proceeding that was very contentious. 

Rich Bennett 30:15
Oh. 

Kristin Kirkwood 30:16
We have had other landowners that, you know, one of the properties there in Edgewood, we bought half from a sister, the other half her brother ended up passing and we bought it out of the estate because that wasn't something he was interested during his life. 

Rich Bennett 30:30
Right. 

Kristin Kirkwood 30:30
So there's all different permutations of it. And I always say with landowners, you know, we're not here to judge your motivations, what you want to get out of this. We say the easiest thing is if we can be open and honest about your goals, 

Rich Bennett 30:42
Mhm. 

Kristin Kirkwood 30:42
you know, and sometimes the goals can be, I just need to get as much money as possible for my grandchildren out of this property. 

Rich Bennett 30:49
Yeah. 

Kristin Kirkwood 30:49
And we're not here to judge that. Sometimes the goal is, you know, a little bit more interested in the legacy. Sometimes people have that sometimes. 

Rich Bennett 30:58
Yeah. 

Kristin Kirkwood 30:59
Taxes. You know, there's all these different things that can go on. So we try our very best to respect that, but then to work with whatever their constraints or goals are to find a package that we can bring to them. 

Rich Bennett 31:11
Yeah. 

Kristin Kirkwood 31:11
Doesn't always work sometimes. We've had very respectful, cordial conversations with landowners, but they just end up developing the property because it doesn't work for them. Sometimes. With the Bellevue farm, actually. Harvard 

Rich Bennett 31:24
Mm. 

Kristin Kirkwood 31:24
Land Trust worked 

25 years ago. It didn't work. 

Rich Bennett 31:29
Really? 

Kristin Kirkwood 31:29
Thankfully, it stayed within the family. But it wasn't until the next generation that we were able to purchase that and bring that into public parkland. 

Rich Bennett 31:39
Wow. Well, first of all, I got to thank you guys, because and all of you listening, just think about this. If Harvard Land Trust wasn't around. 

You see him? Buildings everywhere. You think you see a lot of buildings. Now take that probably times 100 times it be crazy 

Kristin Kirkwood 32:00
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 32:01
crazy. And that's one I'm that's something that I get upset about when they just start 

building wherever. And granted, you know, the builders aren't going in there to look at the land to find out they don't know anything about plans and you know what's there, what's not there, or the effect it could have. Europe's up the now how it can affect the rest of the area. 

Kristin Kirkwood 32:25
Mm hmm. 

Rich Bennett 32:25
You know, and the God, the magnolia trees, those even though we don't have any growing where I live yet. In our yard. Yet somehow or another we those big ass leaves 

Kristin Kirkwood 32:38
Mm. 

Rich Bennett 32:38
keep ending up in our yards. It's like, who's got the magnolia tree around here? But they're beautiful. 

Kristin Kirkwood 32:45
Yeah. Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 32:46
Yeah, it's something else I found out not too long ago. Cattails 

Kristin Kirkwood 32:52
Mm hmm. 

Rich Bennett 32:52
have their elbow as well. 

Kristin Kirkwood 32:53
They are. 

Rich Bennett 32:54
Well, I don't think it's a cattail. 

Kristin Kirkwood 32:55
It's the bottom and the root. It's 

Rich Bennett 32:57
Yeah. 

Kristin Kirkwood 32:57
the root actually in there. 

Rich Bennett 32:58
And, you know, there's a lot of that growing around. 

Kristin Kirkwood 33:00
Mm hmm. 

Rich Bennett 33:00
Well, it's. You don't want it in stagnant water, I think. 

Kristin Kirkwood 33:06
Well, no, I don't go there, but, I mean, it's. 

Rich Bennett 33:08
But that's the ones you don't want to eat, I think. 

Kristin Kirkwood 33:10
Well, I mean, you want to kind of rinse it off, but you. 

Rich Bennett 33:12
Well, yeah. 

Kristin Kirkwood 33:13
Down the bottom. 

Rich Bennett 33:14
Yeah. 

Kristin Kirkwood 33:15
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 33:15
Yeah. But I never knew that that stuff was available. 

Kristin Kirkwood 33:19
Yeah. Cattail was a big food source for the Native American populations here, as well as the reeds for actually creating maps and things out of. 

Rich Bennett 33:25
Yeah, I did find that out. Is that still? 

But the and the other thing and I think this is big up in e to mil I believe it is the monarch butterflies. 

Kristin Kirkwood 33:36
Mm hmm. 

Rich Bennett 33:37
And aren't they? I mean, are they know distinction. 

Kristin Kirkwood 33:41
No, no, but they are. 

Rich Bennett 33:43
They're very rare, right? 

Kristin Kirkwood 33:44
Yeah. And so actually on that, you know, not only do we do actual land preservation transactions, 

Rich Bennett 33:51
Mm 

Kristin Kirkwood 33:51
but we started a program a couple of years ago and this year if call called our Grow Wild program. So we would oftentimes get people who came to us and said, you know, I love your work, but I don't really own land and I maybe don't have a lot of money to contribute to this. And what can I do to really support a thriving ecosystem here in Harford County? And actually, for things like the Monarchs, a perfect example, a lot of people, they might have a little patch of yard or maybe they're even part of nature way with some area or they 

Rich Bennett 34:17
hmm. 

Kristin Kirkwood 34:17
have a condo that has a little space there. You can do more beneficial things with your outdoor space. So in this county, 13% of our county is covered in grass. Which is usually 

Rich Bennett 34:30
What? 

Kristin Kirkwood 34:30
13% of our county is covered in grass. 

Rich Bennett 34:33
Only 13%. 

Kristin Kirkwood 34:34
Well that's a lot when you. 

Rich Bennett 34:36
It is. 

Kristin Kirkwood 34:36
If you think about it. Yeah, because it's typically a monoculture, right? It's an ecological dead zone. There are no bugs there. Right. Usually people put a lot of topical applications that run into our water streams on it. It doesn't help with much. I mean. 

Rich Bennett 34:53
Yeah. 

Kristin Kirkwood 34:53
Sure I have children. They play in our grass. You know, my kids play sports. There is a purpose for some of it. But what about all this other area which isn't doing any good for anybody? Couldn't we plant that with some native plants that typically are low maintenance? You're not spending every weekend mowing it, spending all this money on fuel either. And then, hey, you might get excited to plant a little milkweed. You might actually see a monarch come by. You might see a blue bird there. These things which we said really do increase our own happiness. It's not just being altruistic. It actually makes us happier to see these things. So 

Rich Bennett 35:28
I think 

Kristin Kirkwood 35:28
why 

Rich Bennett 35:28
my 

Kristin Kirkwood 35:28
wouldn't 

Rich Bennett 35:29
neighbor 

Kristin Kirkwood 35:29
we do? 

Rich Bennett 35:29
did that. 

Kristin Kirkwood 35:30
Right. And we're not talking about an unkempt patch of weeds or 

Rich Bennett 35:33
Yeah. 

Kristin Kirkwood 35:33
anything. And so this program grow wild. There are so many free resources for landowners to do just this. So we said, let's get together, let's create a website, let's put these resources there. The partners in the county that are actually already doing this. Let's put everybody together on it. We have a partnership. We meet regularly. We've had a few different events. So one of the things we did, for example, was just like the ice cream trail, the barn quilt trail and the. 

Rich Bennett 35:58
Mm. 

Kristin Kirkwood 35:59
There is now a pollinator gardens trail. So. 

Rich Bennett 36:02
Oh, really? 

Kristin Kirkwood 36:02
All have public parking that you can go and you can actually look at these. What are these places look like that have all these features that are really good for pollinators and bugs and things like that. And so you can go there. There's also for your private garden at home if you're maybe killing it, you got a great little garden. You can actually have the master gardeners come. They'll look at what you're doing and they'll certify you 

Rich Bennett 36:24
Oh. 

Kristin Kirkwood 36:24
as a pollinator friendly garden. You get a nice little sign, you feel good about yourself, it promotes it to other people. So we're trying to celebrate what we've already got and showing people it's not that hard. Or for example, one of the partners, the Alliance for the Chesapeake Bay, they will come and they will plant trees for you. If you like. Let's say a lot of people might have even up to like an acre that you're just mowing. 

Rich Bennett 36:45
Yeah. 

Kristin Kirkwood 36:45
They'll plant trees for you. I actually did this on my own property. You can pick the species. They'll do maintenance for three years on it. They'll answer all your questions on it. 

Rich Bennett 36:54
Really? 

Kristin Kirkwood 36:55
So much that is free to do. So our moniker for this is small actions, 

Rich Bennett 37:00
Environment. 

Kristin Kirkwood 37:00
thriving communities. But it's not just the environment that helps people. 

Rich Bennett 37:04
Yeah. 

Kristin Kirkwood 37:04
Who doesn't love to see the big magnolia tree? Who doesn't love to see the redbud tree when it pops in the spring? You know who doesn't love to see a hummingbird? Every time I see a hummingbird? It's thrilling, right? 

Rich Bennett 37:14
Uh huh. 

Kristin Kirkwood 37:15
And so this is why I'm saying it's not only good for the environment, we are much happier when we see this stuff and we're living among it. That has been proven over and over again. And you don't have to have a whole big farm. You don't have to backyard up to a park. You can actually think about if you 

Rich Bennett 37:30
Front or back? 

Kristin Kirkwood 37:30
if you want to walk in the evening after dinner with your dog, isn't it much nicer to see things blooming and things around you rather than a completely manicured lawn everywhere? 

Rich Bennett 37:41
Funny you mention the hummingbirds, 

Kristin Kirkwood 37:42
Big Bird, which. 

Rich Bennett 37:43
which I have not been able to get one. And yet. But something it was last summer. It just blew me away. I was in my back yard and I'm looking like 

Kristin Kirkwood 37:56
Like 

Rich Bennett 37:57
a bumble bee over by the butterfly 

Kristin Kirkwood 37:59
or. 

Rich Bennett 37:59
bush. And it was a hummingbird moth. The thing. Let me pet it. 

Kristin Kirkwood 38:03
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 38:04
I was able to pet a hummingbird that just made my whole day. 

Kristin Kirkwood 38:08
Does. Exactly. 

Rich Bennett 38:09
It's like, of course I had to tell my wife right away. She thought I was lying. 

Kristin Kirkwood 38:14
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 38:14
But I say, No, I did. I said, Wrap it up. And it was the other the other time. Well, Dan Mariner Point Park is they're always feeding the squirrels. I mean, they'll come up to me. But I had a Carolina rent actually come and. Take my hand and take food right out my. 

Kristin Kirkwood 38:32
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 38:32
Can you get in the door around the house? 

Kristin Kirkwood 38:35
Yeah, but. 

Rich Bennett 38:35
But I didn't realize you guys could. Is that with this pollinator trail? Is that one of the reasons you think that? Because I think I think we're seeing more of honeybees now than you. 

Kristin Kirkwood 38:48
Well, one of the partners in the program they join in the second year is the Susquehanna Beekeepers Association. 

Rich Bennett 38:53
Oh, 

Kristin Kirkwood 38:53
So they attend the events we put on to so and again on the website Grow Wild. HARFORD Work. We manage the website, but with all these partners. So you've got the beekeepers are on it, the master gardeners groups like the Havre de Grace Green team, Susquehanna Wildlife Society. So no matter where you are in your kind of journey of maybe you really don't have the ability to influence the land around you, you can still learn, you can still join a group, 

Rich Bennett 39:19
yeah. 

Kristin Kirkwood 39:19
you can promote it, or maybe then in your own yard you can do certain things. So the honeybees, I don't know if they're increasing in number, you have more people that are interested in beekeeping these days, certainly. 

Rich Bennett 39:30
Maybe that's what I. 

Kristin Kirkwood 39:31
Yeah, the native bee population is definitely on the decline and that's. 

Rich Bennett 39:35
It is. 

Kristin Kirkwood 39:36
It is. Most of them are solitary bees. They don't live in colonies like the honeybees do. And so that's why they say to you, for example, all of us that love the neat, clean lawn where you take out all the dead things 

Rich Bennett 39:48
Yeah. 

Kristin Kirkwood 39:48
right at the end of the fall, you actually should leave them until the spring because those native bees use all the little holes in there to overwinter and things 

Rich Bennett 39:55
Oh, 

Kristin Kirkwood 39:56
like that. Yeah. So again, these are some basic knowledge building that people, if you take a little bit of time, we have a lot of free workshops. You can learn about this stuff so that you can feel a little bit more informed, not only to enjoy your outdoor space, but you can maybe make some choices that are a little better. And a lot of the plant vendors are getting more attuned to this as well. You know, I just went up in Lancaster to a plant cellar last weekend and above every plant. Not only did it tell you, is it deer resistant? We all don't want things anymore. Deer plants are expensive. It would tell you some things. A native plant, too. So you're seeing 

Rich Bennett 40:28
right. 

Kristin Kirkwood 40:29
a lot more of this now where people are thinking, Oh, I have these two choices here. I'm going to choose that one, because that's actually a native plant that should be around here. And, you know, a lot of people are wising up that, you know, don't buy the English ivy, don't buy the bamboo. Some of these 

Rich Bennett 40:43
Oh. 

Kristin Kirkwood 40:43
non-natives that are really 

Rich Bennett 40:44
Yes. 

Kristin Kirkwood 40:44
destructive. But believe it or not, a lot of people don't necessarily know that. So we're trying to get some of that basic information out there to people. 

Rich Bennett 40:51
That bamboos like mint. 

Kristin Kirkwood 40:53
It goes 

Rich Bennett 40:53
One 

Kristin Kirkwood 40:53
everywhere. 

Rich Bennett 40:54
echo. Oh, it's not. 

Kristin Kirkwood 40:56
Yeah. And you know what? We just don't have any pandas that live around here to eat it. 

Rich Bennett 41:04
See, now you have me changing my my yard, because we mentioned Sara Coleman earlier. One of the things I've been wanting to do, she mentioned a rain garden. 

Kristin Kirkwood 41:13
Oh, yeah. 

Rich Bennett 41:13
Which is what I wanted to do in the back yard. But now I also got to do a pollinator garden. 

Kristin Kirkwood 41:18
Well, it's just. 

Rich Bennett 41:18
I'm going to have room for my shed. 

Kristin Kirkwood 41:20
It's just picking things that maybe are a little bit better choices, right? If you're going to get some plants anyway or you know what, you're just tired of mowing your lawn all the time or weed whacking around the 

Rich Bennett 41:29
Yeah, 

Kristin Kirkwood 41:29
edges. Well, you don't have to do your whole lawn. Just take a little bit there. But on this I was going to mention as well, on June 15th, we actually have a conservation landscape workshops. You want to learn a little bit more. We're trying to develop some partnerships with some groups like Sarah's and others that are lawn care companies that are really you know, they know that people are always going to have grass for them to take care of, 

Rich Bennett 41:56
right. 

Kristin Kirkwood 41:56
but there's a lot more that people are wanting with gardens and plants. And so they're also promoting that stuff now as well. And we partnered with the Gunpowder Valley Conservancy, Another they're both a land trust and a watershed organization who work specifically in the Gunpowder Watershed. They do a lot of the Rainbow workshops, conservation, gardening, so they're going to help us put on that workshop. So we are all about partnerships, we think. Harford Land Trust, 

Rich Bennett 42:19
Good. 

Kristin Kirkwood 42:19
we cannot be all things to all people, but somebody out there has the answers, so we want to just make the tent bigger. So that was the idea with Grow Wild, and a lot of the work we do is in partnership. 

Rich Bennett 42:29
We'll see now. And with this grow wild, this just means I'm going to have to get you and these other partners on. 

Kristin Kirkwood 42:35
Sure. 

Rich Bennett 42:36
Like a roundtable to talk because this is I loved I had no idea about this 

Kristin Kirkwood 42:40
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 42:40
grow wild thing. That is awesome. 

Kristin Kirkwood 42:43
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 42:43
And the is the trees. So 

Kristin Kirkwood 42:47
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 42:47
who is it that will come in and plant a tree for you? 

Kristin Kirkwood 42:50
The Alliance for the Chesapeake Bay. 

Rich Bennett 42:51
Okay? 

Kristin Kirkwood 42:52
Yeah, they have a whole variety of tree planting programs. Some of their free programs, you need a little bit more space, like a set around an acre. It's actually when you think about the cost of putting a tree in the ground and caring for it. A tree in the urban area is ten times more expensive than a tree in the rural area. And so not that one is more deserving than the other. There's just a different cost to it. But Maryland has a huge tree push right now. When you look at the data, we continue to lose tree cover over the decades. And so we want to stop that. We want to stop the loss and we want to reforest certain areas. And even though we work a lot in agriculture, actually protect a lot of farms. When you're using things like precision agriculture, something that the University of Maryland, as well as groups like the mill, are really pushing. If you have an area that, you know, just doesn't ever yield you right. You know, the bottom part of the hill, you get half the corn you're getting from the top part of the hill, and yet you're putting the same amount of fertilizer on the whole thing on that bottom part. Maybe you just stop farming that little bit, put a little extra tree buffer right there. And actually, financially, you make up better in the long run and we get a little more trees in that part. So there's things like that. There's different programs for farmers as well or around stream areas. That's one of the highest value trees that are in the stream buffer areas. 

Rich Bennett 44:08
Yeah. 

Kristin Kirkwood 44:08
So we do a lot of work as well in the agricultural community. So. 

Rich Bennett 44:12
See now. God. Christian, thank you so much. Cause my I got all the gears in my head going now because I got to replace my fence and I keep wanting to do a living fence. Now I know how to do a living fence. 

Kristin Kirkwood 44:23
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 44:24
You've just put that in the areas 

Kristin Kirkwood 44:26
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 44:26
that I write with the tree, though. Will they take out a tree and replace it? 

Kristin Kirkwood 44:31
No, probably 

Rich Bennett 44:32
Oh. 

Kristin Kirkwood 44:33
not 

Rich Bennett 44:33
Maybe 

Kristin Kirkwood 44:33
in that. 

Rich Bennett 44:34
because some of these maples are just a pain. 

Kristin Kirkwood 44:37
Well, if you're. 

Rich Bennett 44:38
Quarter too much. 

Kristin Kirkwood 44:39
Plant a tree in this area where we are in Harford County. The most bang for your buck in terms of ecosystem benefits is going to be an oak. 

Rich Bennett 44:49
Oh, 

Kristin Kirkwood 44:49
Yeah. There's been all these studies about the different symbiotic relationships in terms of other little critters that 

Rich Bennett 44:57
right. 

Kristin Kirkwood 44:57
live on trees. For example, your Bradford pear doesn't do diddly squat for anything. We don't want those. You want your oak there. There are more. There are a host plant for more other, particularly insects, which then brings all the other animals. 

Rich Bennett 45:12
Right. 

Kristin Kirkwood 45:13
So OKC's are definitely where you want to go. 

Rich Bennett 45:15
Now, do you know the roots of that Sikh water like the. 

Kristin Kirkwood 45:19
Well, there's different sorts of oaks, so yeah, there's different varieties. So you would just have to find the one. 

Rich Bennett 45:24
I don't want anything busting my pipes. Yeah. I mean. 

Kristin Kirkwood 45:27
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 45:28
Those things are nasty. What other kind of surprises do you have for me? Because I've. I've learned a lot already. 

Kristin Kirkwood 45:35
Well, I was going to, but we we have a five year strategic plan. We just finalized our most recent one in right at the end of 2003. And so in it, I was just going 

Rich Bennett 45:46
2003. 

Kristin Kirkwood 45:46
to say. I'm sorry. 2023. Excuse 

Rich Bennett 45:49
Okay. 

Kristin Kirkwood 45:49
me. So it doesn't really change what we do, but we tried to be a little bit more succinct with it because I sometimes wish I worked for the library or the Humane Society, where their missions are so obvious and easily digestible. Land preservation is a very complex topic, you know, it can quickly devolve into legalese and talking about taxes and zoning codes and all of this kind of stuff. So we try to not, you know, numb people's minds with that. So. The work that we do very much focused on agriculture, on forests, on habitat, and on recreation and well-being. So we any project that we work on, the property has to have some combination of one of one or hopefully all of those 

Rich Bennett 46:34
Right. 

Kristin Kirkwood 46:35
four things on it. Like I said, we're known for a lot of park creation. That's not necessarily our goal. We're not a park group, but we sometimes work on properties that are extremely suitable for that, and so that kind of comes out of it. We also, in terms of our toolkit, like how we deliver our work. So I talked about some of our real estate transactions. We also are a subject matter experts of that report I talked about. That is all of our brainpower in there. I'm oftentimes asked to be on various groups, working groups. There was a group in the county that worked for about two years to make some changes to our county funded agricultural land preservation program. 

Rich Bennett 47:14
Okay. 

Kristin Kirkwood 47:14
So I was one of the subject matter experts on that. I chair of the county's Planning Advisory Board. I chair the Land Use Committee of our Economic Development Advisory Board. One of my staff chairs the county's Environmental Advisory Board. We are on all of these different groups trying to have a seat at the table so it's sort of that quiet, unsexy work. 

Rich Bennett 47:33
Yeah. 

Kristin Kirkwood 47:33
But if you're not at the table, what do they say? You're on the menu. Right. So we need to be there. 

Rich Bennett 47:40
The unsexy. 

Kristin Kirkwood 47:41
It is, right? 

But it makes a huge difference. 

Rich Bennett 47:46
Yeah. 

Kristin Kirkwood 47:46
Unfortunately, in this county, and we're not unique here, but we're in a little bit of a vicious cycle where certain developments are proposed at the 11th hour, people are outraged and it's a very unsatisfactory answer when the answer is, well, these decisions are made in a planning document ten years ago. Right. So if you're not in the planning conversation, you're going to miss that opportunity. So we try to make sure we're there at the table for. 

Rich Bennett 48:10
Good, 

Kristin Kirkwood 48:12
We also again, we've talked about the funding that we pursue. We try to be really creative and gurus with all of that. We try to do a lot to educate decision makers because again, you know, somebody that joins the county council who's a very respected business person. They might not actually know anything about land preservation. 

Rich Bennett 48:32
right? 

Kristin Kirkwood 48:32
That's not their fault. It's not a common knowledge. So we do spend a lot of time meeting with decision makers explaining this, writing reports like that, sharing the data with them. People think, Oh, this is just a one off over there. But if you pull one lever, you know, everything changes a 

Rich Bennett 48:49
Right. 

Kristin Kirkwood 48:49
little. So we're explaining, for example, if you took all the land from land preservation and give it to the schools, right? Actually, that's not good because there's something called the cost of community services. So, for example, every house that goes into the county. 

Rich Bennett 49:05
Mm hmm. 

Kristin Kirkwood 49:06
If the House is probably less than $800,000, which most of them are. Right. 

Rich Bennett 49:10
Right. 

Kristin Kirkwood 49:11
For every dollar of tax money they put into the coffers, they take more than a dollar out. So they're net negative. 

Rich Bennett 49:17
Oh. 

Kristin Kirkwood 49:18
So it's a draw on the public purse, right? 

Rich Bennett 49:21
Oh. 

Kristin Kirkwood 49:21
Businesses and firms have a different calculus. So when you start emphasizing one thing, like building houses without the counterbalance of development, 

Rich Bennett 49:30
Right. 

Kristin Kirkwood 49:30
you actually exacerbate school overcrowding, exacerbate school needs. So we spend a lot of times explaining these dynamics 

Rich Bennett 49:38
Okay. 

Kristin Kirkwood 49:38
of why land preservation is not a luxury. It's actually an economic strategy that has been well-proven. So we spend a lot of time explaining that. And then I talked a lot about partnerships. So we do a lot in bringing people together. So that's kind of what we do. And we're here for land, for nature, land for food and fiber, land for clean water and land for people. So our plan, which is on our website, kind of goes through then how we do those different buckets of our work. 

Rich Bennett 50:03
Right. 

Kristin Kirkwood 50:04
We're a staff of three. We're kind of a lean, mean machine. Everybody else is a volunteer. 

Rich Bennett 50:10
How long have you actually been with them now? 

Kristin Kirkwood 50:12
This summer will be seven years for me. 

Rich Bennett 50:14
Seven years. 

Kristin Kirkwood 50:15
Yep. 

Rich Bennett 50:16
How did you end up falling into this? She fell into it. Because I'm sure you. 

Kristin Kirkwood 50:21
Yeah, but. 

Rich Bennett 50:22
Thank God you did, because. 

Kristin Kirkwood 50:24
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 50:25
You're doing a lot. 

Kristin Kirkwood 50:26
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 50:26
Well, I. 

Kristin Kirkwood 50:27
I don't think many people kind of go to college thinking I'm going to be a land preservation. Not well known, but I am a proud Harper County native. I am from the Whitehall area. I went to North Harford 

Rich Bennett 50:38
Okay. 

Kristin Kirkwood 50:38
High School and then I went to the University of Maryland. My undergraduate was in finance and both my parents were teachers there, big education advocates. They also farmed on the side. So I was from a science teacher farming family, but I initially was a consultant for PricewaterhouseCoopers, which is a big. 

Rich Bennett 50:57
Really? 

Kristin Kirkwood 50:57
On for accounting. Yeah. And I had a wonderful ten years with them. I learned a lot. I think a lot of my ability to have so many balls in the air to project, manage, deal with so many different personalities, 

Rich Bennett 51:09
Yeah. 

Kristin Kirkwood 51:10
kind of have a lot of rigor and discipline to my work comes from my time there. So even though I think it's very, very different, there was a lot of skills I was able to bring. I then did a master's in environmental management, and right around that time when I was doing that, I did that part time while I was working. My husband and I started a family and we always knew we wanted. We were living in Washington, D.C. at the time. We always knew that Harford County would be home at some 

Rich Bennett 51:34
Yeah. 

Kristin Kirkwood 51:35
point and actually, as I was concluding my Masters, I needed to do a kind of a capstone project. I always knew of the Harvard Land Trust because my family farm has always been preserved and my father was on the board when I was a kid. So I was very aware of it and. 

Rich Bennett 51:55
You grew up in that non-profit world? More or less. 

Kristin Kirkwood 51:58
Well, a little more in the science world, but 

Rich Bennett 52:00
Okay. 

Kristin Kirkwood 52:01
science and farming. So I knew about the importance of that. 

Rich Bennett 52:04
Yeah. 

Kristin Kirkwood 52:04
And I think as I got older, living in different cities when I would, you know, be driving home, it felt like just a breath of fresh air. Like the stress rolls off of you when you see that open space. Like I said, even before, that wasn't even before people were really talking about the mental health benefits of being outdoors as much. But I could just feel it. And I thought, this is really important to me. And when I started a family, I wanted that for my kids. Also. So it just was a perfect storm of I was volunteering a little bit. Their executive director was retiring. And so on a whim I said to my husband, You know what? If I what if I applied? And I was very open with the selection committee, I said, I have never worked in real estate, I have never worked for a nonprofit. But all my references will tell you that I'm a very quick learner and I think all these skills I have would fit really well and I really care about it. And I still do. And I thank them all the time for taking that chance on me. And since that time, we've grown a little bit. We don't ever want to be a really big organization, but having a couple more staff has allowed us to do programs like the Grow Out program. We've added some new events as well that we do. You asked about events, so we do about three or four of those 

Rich Bennett 53:13
Okay. 

Kristin Kirkwood 53:13
per year. Also, having the other staff, we last year achieved national accreditation for Land Trust, which of the maybe 3000 land trusts nationally, only a couple hundred have that. So it means that we have been put through our paces and then some. It took us about five years to attain this. So I looked under the hood. All of our transactions are sound. We have the financial reserves to be sustainable. Our processes are sound. So that really gave us a lot of confidence that, you know what, we can do an $8.6 million deal in Japantown, 

Rich Bennett 53:46
Yeah. 

Kristin Kirkwood 53:47
which we would not have done five years ago, because that takes a little bit of bravery to stick 

Rich Bennett 53:52
Yeah. 

Kristin Kirkwood 53:52
your neck out and go for something like that. Yeah, so that's my story. 

Rich Bennett 53:57
That's amazing. I mean, because you say you've only been with them for seven years. The knowledge you have is just. It's mind blowing. 

Kristin Kirkwood 54:07
Well, one of the biggest blessings I had when I started this job again, I hadn't worked. 

Rich Bennett 54:12
Worked, 

Kristin Kirkwood 54:12
I worked in a for profit industry 

Rich Bennett 54:14
right? 

Kristin Kirkwood 54:14
before this was that I really was starting from a very low knowledge base and all the colleagues across Maryland that work for land trusts, as well as people like Bill Amos in county government who spent their career in this. You know, I am the first one to say I don't know something and I need help. And so I just ruthlessly met with all of them and fed off their generosity of them, giving me their knowledge about this. And I try to pay it forward now. So, you know, there's a new executive director of the Lower Sugar Land Trust. There was a new one recently of the Gunpowder Valley Conservancy. You know, I try to meet with them. I've also tried to again pay it forward. I have a leadership role. I'm the vice chair of Forever Maryland, which is kind of the Association of Land Trusts across the state. 

Rich Bennett 54:56
Okay. 

Kristin Kirkwood 54:57
So trying to continue to share that knowledge, put what I have out there for it. So anybody that's interested in the nonprofit world, it is a breath of fresh air to actually know there's no competition. And 

Rich Bennett 55:09
Well. 

Kristin Kirkwood 55:09
sometimes people say 

Rich Bennett 55:10
Yeah. 

Kristin Kirkwood 55:10
to me. Care about this program is going to preservative that. And I say, I don't care how it gets preserved. We all win. You 

Rich Bennett 55:17
Yeah. 

Kristin Kirkwood 55:17
know, we have no claim to any of this. That is a really nice thing about where we were. 

Rich Bennett 55:22
Wow. Yeah. I never thought about it. Thought about it that way. 

Kristin Kirkwood 55:25
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 55:26
I just love the non-profit world. I just it's and I think the people that work in the non-profit world don't get the praise that they deserve. That's why I said thank you for everything you're doing, because if you weren't here, if you weren't if half your land trust wasn't here, if you weren't as knowledgeable as you are running this, 

lot of this stuff would not be preserved. 

Kristin Kirkwood 55:54
Right. 

Rich Bennett 55:55
Seeing more buildings going up. We don't want that. We definitely don't want that. How could people make a donation and become aware and or become a member? 

Kristin Kirkwood 56:05
Yeah, either if you donate, you become a member, which we greatly, greatly appreciate and we depend upon. So our office is in Bel Air. So we're on 22 West Pennsylvania, right near Cortland Hardware or Line Barbers right on that side there on the street level. So we're available Monday through Friday. Normal business hours, you can pop on in. We take money any way, shape or form. You can 

Rich Bennett 56:28
Even 

Kristin Kirkwood 56:28
pay off. 

Rich Bennett 56:28
Bitcoin. 

Kristin Kirkwood 56:29
Yeah. Online. We do have electronic donation checks, cash to us. 

Rich Bennett 56:37
First 

Kristin Kirkwood 56:37
Like I said, 

Rich Bennett 56:37
born 

Kristin Kirkwood 56:38
there 

Rich Bennett 56:38
to blood. 

Kristin Kirkwood 56:38
you go. If you're in. Giving opportunities. You know, we have received stock. We've been in people's wills, retirement designations, all that kind of stuff is acceptable. We also our next fundraiser is our Kayak poker on a kayaking event that happens at a flying point park and. 

Rich Bennett 56:54
I didn't see that. Okay. 

Kristin Kirkwood 56:56
That's on June 8th. And our large fundraiser, our party to preserve is on October 5th. We do that every fall. 

Rich Bennett 57:03
Is that it? 

Kristin Kirkwood 57:04
That? Well, secret location. Every year we go around to different, different preserved properties. That's kind of the fun that it's a private space that you wouldn't normally get to go to. So we will release that location soon, but it's a good one. I 

Rich Bennett 57:16
like 

Kristin Kirkwood 57:16
like that. 

Rich Bennett 57:17
that. 

Kristin Kirkwood 57:17
Yeah, Yeah. And we have different opportunities that are free things like our annual meeting every year we have certain webinars and events that are free if you just want to learn more about us. But we're very much, you know, you have a real person that answers the phone. Real people in the office that you can talk to. So encourage anybody that wants to learn more. Our website has a lot of really good information on it too. 

Rich Bennett 57:39
Don't you guys have something up by eating milk, too? Because I remember going to eat a meal, walk down the road and I see 

Kristin Kirkwood 57:45
We 

Rich Bennett 57:45
we. 

Kristin Kirkwood 57:45
own. Yeah, I should say we do own property in the county too. So we own about 350 acres right now in different parcels. One of them is right on big Branch, which is a waterway that feeds into Deer Creek, north of Eden Mill. 

Rich Bennett 57:59
Okay. 

Kristin Kirkwood 58:00
We own a lot of land in Edgewood, what's known as Willoughby Woods, some 

Rich Bennett 58:04
Yeah, 

Kristin Kirkwood 58:04
people call it. We own that. We own a piece of property right across the street from Anita Clyde Estuary Center. Some of those we've known for a long time. Some, like I mentioned, a property in Perryman. We owned it for about five years and then turned it into a park. So owning land is costly and time consuming. We don't want to own land if we can't be good 

Rich Bennett 58:24
right. 

Kristin Kirkwood 58:24
stewards of it. So we do not try to own land unless it's essential. Sometimes that's what has to be done to protect a piece of property, and we will do that. 

Rich Bennett 58:33
You guys, because I remember going up there and seeing. 

Kristin Kirkwood 58:35
And there's a road sign. 

Rich Bennett 58:37
Yeah. 

Kristin Kirkwood 58:37
Yeah, it's always hard to advertise our work because the biggest successes are when we say, you know, people can drive by something and never have a worry about if it's ever going to have to be preserved because they don't even think about it. They can fill their mind with other things they need to worry about and think about. But that can sometimes be bad for our work because people don't pay attention and start to support our work until it's too late sometimes. 

Rich Bennett 58:59
Yeah. 

Kristin Kirkwood 58:59
Or they might have something. You know, it's almost like how people weren't supporting, you know, the hospital until their mom got cancer, you know, which it's so wonderful that people give back in that way. But with land, sometimes 

Rich Bennett 59:13
We 

Kristin Kirkwood 59:13
we 

Rich Bennett 59:13
want 

Kristin Kirkwood 59:13
want to 

Rich Bennett 59:13
to 

Kristin Kirkwood 59:13
say 

Rich Bennett 59:13
set. 

Kristin Kirkwood 59:14
that recognize that it could be gone if we're not going to act now. So we try to encourage people. And every dollar today saves us money because the dollar today is worth more than a dollar in five years because land just is becoming more and more expensive here. 

Rich Bennett 59:29
So since you've been doing this with all. 

Kristin Kirkwood 59:32
The. 

Rich Bennett 59:32
The difference whether it be plant species. 

Kristin Kirkwood 59:35
Sex while life. 

Rich Bennett 59:37
What is one thing that you found out a bit that you didn't know about that just blew you away? Like, Oh my God, I never knew that was here. 

Kristin Kirkwood 59:47
Oh, that was here in Harford County. 

Rich Bennett 59:49
Yeah. 

Kristin Kirkwood 59:50
Um, well, recently I had the fun opportunity of going along with a bunch of scientists to do a bog turtle survey. 

Rich Bennett 59:59
Mm. 

Kristin Kirkwood 1:00:00
And of course, most of us have heard about bog turtles here in Harford County, but almost no one's ever seen one. Right. They're very elusive. 

Rich Bennett 1:00:07
Yeah. 

Kristin Kirkwood 1:00:07
So I had on the whole, you know, hip wader boots. There are these Teflon sleeves that you get with these special gloves and you're down in the muck. I mean, literally up to sometimes, you know, closer to your waist, you're down on your hands and knees. I learned a new word that specific to bacterial services called muddling. When 

Rich Bennett 1:00:31
Oh. 

Kristin Kirkwood 1:00:31
you're muddling, you're on your hands and knees and you're jabbing your arm sometimes all the way up to your elbow down and holes trying to find the bog turtles. My day that I helped. 

Rich Bennett 1:00:42
Down that deep. 

Kristin Kirkwood 1:00:43
Yeah. In my day that I helped. We unfortunately didn't find any, so I might have to go again to see some. But I had a very deep respect for all of the people that spend hours and hours and hours out there. And the reason they're doing this is that you can't really protect a species if you don't know where they are. 

Rich Bennett 1:01:00
Yeah. 

Kristin Kirkwood 1:01:01
You don't know about them. And the private landowners, because it's mostly all private land that allow the scientists to come out and do that. So it is a partnership between private landowners and the conservation scientists out there. I just had a lot of respect because, of course, you know, our four, I'm thinking, oh man, my back really hurts like I'm pretty hot that. I'm going to have to check for ticks. You know, 

Rich Bennett 1:01:23
Yeah. 

Kristin Kirkwood 1:01:23
it was these people during there's a very narrow window in the spring where they're doing that about four days a week, day after day after day. So that was a new experience that I was both wowed by, but gave me a lot of respect for. 

Rich Bennett 1:01:37
How many different species of turtles do we have? 

Kristin Kirkwood 1:01:40
Oh, gosh. Well, our partners, Susquehanna Wildlife Society, are some of the best herpetologists 

Rich Bennett 1:01:44
Yeah. 

Kristin Kirkwood 1:01:44
in the county. But, you know, we a lot of people think of, you know, your snapping turtles and your painted turtles and your box turtles that you see. But there's all these other ones like we do have the bog turtle. Well, yeah, terrapins don't really see up this way, but things like wood turtle which. 

Rich Bennett 1:02:00
Oh, yeah. 

Kristin Kirkwood 1:02:00
La land turtle again, very hard to find only small pockets. They may become a listed species. You know, there are other things that are just less commonplace. 

Rich Bennett 1:02:10
Yeah, 

Kristin Kirkwood 1:02:10
So I think that's what's fun too, is that even though I grew up with scientist parents, I love when I can go out somewhere and I see something that maybe wasn't right where I lived, you know? So 

Rich Bennett 1:02:21
right. 

Kristin Kirkwood 1:02:22
when I saw in the southern part of the county, you'll see things like skinks. You don't see up in the northern part. So that's 

Rich Bennett 1:02:27
Really? 

Kristin Kirkwood 1:02:28
a. No, they're more coastal. 

Rich Bennett 1:02:30
Well, come by my house. We got a couple of them living there. 

Kristin Kirkwood 1:02:32
Yeah. That is fun. 

Rich Bennett 1:02:34
Yeah. 

Kristin Kirkwood 1:02:35
Or like I said, every time I see a hummingbird, every time I see an owl, I'm just delighted by it. Every time. I love pileated woodpeckers. You know, certain wildflowers when you're just walking, it's a real delight to see them. And I do think that's why the more you know about something, the happier it makes you say, oh, that flower. I haven't seen that in a while, you know, Pink Lady Slipper well and stuff 

Rich Bennett 1:02:57
The 

Kristin Kirkwood 1:02:57
like 

Rich Bennett 1:02:57
more 

Kristin Kirkwood 1:02:57
that. 

Rich Bennett 1:02:58
you become interested in, the more you want to see. 

Kristin Kirkwood 1:03:00
Right. Exactly. So I like I said, I'm from a family of teachers. The few weeks I tried to teach my son at the beginning of COVID and I was hopeless, It just heightened my respect for all of our educators. So I would just encourage any teachers out there who are interested in this. For example, in our Grow Wild website. There's a whole page for kids called the Sprouts page, which is just all different activities for kids to do as well. So it really does start with that. And a lot of parents get interested because their kids are interested in 

Rich Bennett 1:03:30
Yeah. 

Kristin Kirkwood 1:03:31
things to. 

Rich Bennett 1:03:32
I. God, I cannot. Hopefully this rain will stop soon so I can start putting a pollinated garden. 

Kristin Kirkwood 1:03:40
Good. 

Rich Bennett 1:03:41
Beck. I really do. It's just yellow jackets. I don't like hornets. I don't like. 

Kristin Kirkwood 1:03:46
Nobody likes them. 

Rich Bennett 1:03:47
By honeybees. They're they're amazing 

Kristin Kirkwood 1:03:51
Mm. 

Rich Bennett 1:03:51
and they're not going to bother. 

Kristin Kirkwood 1:03:53
No, no. 

Rich Bennett 1:03:55
Some of these other things that you see around here. Like I said, if they're hummingbird moth mean. 

Kristin Kirkwood 1:04:01
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 1:04:02
All the different birds and you do these pollinating gardens. Well, you're going to bring the birds and the bees around. 

Kristin Kirkwood 1:04:08
Mm hmm. 

Rich Bennett 1:04:08
Maybe some snakes, but it's okay. 

Kristin Kirkwood 1:04:11
Snakes get rid of all the mice. So there you. 

Rich Bennett 1:04:13
Thank you. That's why I keep telling everybody. 

Kristin Kirkwood 1:04:16
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 1:04:16
My neighbors, If they see a snake, they're going to call me 

Kristin Kirkwood 1:04:19
Your 

Rich Bennett 1:04:19
or my 

Kristin Kirkwood 1:04:19
mind? 

Rich Bennett 1:04:19
other neighbor. 

Kristin Kirkwood 1:04:20
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 1:04:21
And my wife got sick as I was bringing them and put them in our yard. 

Kristin Kirkwood 1:04:24
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 1:04:25
That. 

Kristin Kirkwood 1:04:26
Yeah, well, the thing I like to tell people is that, you know, maybe we don't have things like bison and elk and these huge things, but we, with very few exceptions, do not really have anything that is going to harm you. So you can go grub around, you can let your kids out, you know, check them for ticks and, you know, maybe get some calamine lotion for the poison ivy. But otherwise, guys, we don't have many hazards out there. So there's no reason not to get out there and explore and get your face off a screen. Get your kid's face off a screen. I must just as guilty as anybody, even though I work in this, sometimes I have to remind myself, Gosh, I've been sitting at my desk for like days on end at work. I got to go. I got to go visit a site. I got to get outside. And you're just happier after you do? 

Rich Bennett 1:05:08
It makes a big difference. 

Kristin Kirkwood 1:05:10
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 1:05:10
Makes a huge difference. Well, Christian, I want to thank you so much. Is there anything you like to add? 

Kristin Kirkwood 1:05:15
No. Oh, I would say if you are on social media, we have a pretty active Facebook page, an Instagram page to please follow us there. Like what we have do join us. Come by and say hi. 

Rich Bennett 1:05:28
Become a member. 

Kristin Kirkwood 1:05:28
Become a member, please. Yep. 

Rich Bennett 1:05:30
Without a doubt. Check out the webinars. 

Kristin Kirkwood 1:05:33
If you've ever driven around, walked around Harford County, thought, gosh, I hope that always stays that way. I hope somebody preserved that. That's your motivation, right? 

Rich Bennett 1:05:41
Now you know how it's going to. 

Kristin Kirkwood 1:05:43
Yep. 

Rich Bennett 1:05:43
So, Kristen, thanks so much 

Kristin Kirkwood 1:05:46
For having 

Rich Bennett 1:05:46
for having me. 

Kristin Kirkwood 1:05:46
me.