Transforming Adversity into Opportunity: Chuck Chapman’s Journey

In this episode, Rich Bennett talks with Chuck Chapman, a life and relationships coach, psychotherapist, and author. Chuck shares his inspiring life story marked by overcoming addiction, divorce, bankruptcy, and cancer. He delves into his journey from being a graphic artist to a psychotherapist, the impact of his daughter's special needs, and his work in helping men recover from the "Nice Guy Syndrome." Chuck emphasizes the importance of integrity and core values in achieving a fulfilling life and discusses his book "Finding Your Way Without Losing Yourself." Tune in to learn about Chuck’s transformation and his insights on courage, grace, tenacity, temperance, and forgiveness.

Chuck Chapman - Personal Advisory Coaching for Men

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Transcript

Rich Bennett 0:00
Thanks for joining the conversation, where we explore the stories and experiences that shape our world today. We're honored to have Chuck Chapman with us, a man whose life story embodies the courage to transform adversity into opportunity. Chuck is not just a seasonal psychotherapist. Life and relationships coach. He is a mystic and a beacon of hope for many. His own journey has been marked by formidable challenges overcoming addiction, navigating the heartache of divorce, enduring the sting of financial despair and bankruptcy, battling cancer and confronting complex family dynamics. Yet Chuck's narrative is not one of defeat, but of overcoming, of not merely surviving, but truly thriving. Man. What the hell have. Chuck, welcome to the show. It's 

Chuck Chapman 0:55
Thanks 

Rich Bennett 0:55
a pleasure 

Chuck Chapman 0:55
for having me. 

Rich Bennett 0:55
to have you. 

Chuck Chapman 0:57
It was. 

Rich Bennett 0:57
Holy cow. 

Chuck Chapman 0:59
Who's that guy? Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Rich Bennett 1:01
I mean, I know addiction addiction is hard to overcome as it is. 

Chuck Chapman 1:06
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 1:07
You know, a divorce. Yeah. Unfortunately, a lot of people go through. 

Chuck Chapman 1:11
Sure. 

Rich Bennett 1:12
But I mean, the bankruptcy cancer. 

Chuck Chapman 1:15
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 1:16
Man hold. 

Chuck Chapman 1:17
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 1:18
Dude. 

Chuck Chapman 1:20
Thanks appreciate appreciate your your near sympathy but. Yeah. No. Life just has a way of going south sometimes, doesn't it? I mean, you're going along and you think that everything is fine, but then all of a sudden something happens, right? And of course, all these things didn't necessarily happen all at once, but they were transitional moments in my life. So when I was 37, I got thyroid cancer and. 

Rich Bennett 1:48
At 37. 

Chuck Chapman 1:50
37. Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 1:51
Wow. 

Chuck Chapman 1:52
And, you know, fortunately, they caught it early. You know, for all intents and purpose, I'm fine. I got to take a little bit of medicine every day to take care of the thyroid that they took out. 

Rich Bennett 2:04
Right. 

Chuck Chapman 2:06
But it really kind of put me into a depression. And I started wondering, like, what is life all about and that kind of thing. And then that led me to seeking a counselor. 

Rich Bennett 2:20
Okay. 

Chuck Chapman 2:20
So I spent a few years in therapy and I thought, Wow, this is such a great gift for me. I want to be able to give it to others. So I decided to do a mid-career transition. I was a graphic artist working in advertising and marketing for about 15 years, and I decided I really wanted to change and do a career that was helpful to people. So I decided to go back to school. And, you know, while I was going to school, just as I was about to graduate and finish, my wife came to me and told me that she had been having an affair and an affair with a woman, no less, and that she was leaving and as a result of that, I kind of went into a spiral. Now, I had already been a drinker, you know, a daily drinker and that kind of thing. But I really started drinking at that point just to kind of 

quell that pain that was inside of me. And then, you know, the next thing I did, which wasn't a great thing, was I jumped into a relationship with the first woman that showed me any attention. And, you know, at the same time, had 

I hid all of the addiction and the other stuff that was kind of going on in my life from her just I'm just a great guy that got screwed over and, you know, that kind of thing. And we we got married just as soon as the ink was dry on my divorce paper. And that marriage lasted about two months before it imploded. 

And then that sent me into 

even a deeper spiral. And I started drinking so heavily that I finally went into rehab. 

And then I got clean again. And, you know, here I was somebody who, you know, had been studying psychology and addiction and all this stuff. I wasn't you know, I had just graduated from grad school, so I hadn't really started a practice yet, but I was pretty much hating on myself, you know, like, I should I should have I should have the answers here. So I went into it after I got out of rehab, I went into straight away into AA. I got a sponsor and my sponsor said to me something really profound. He said, Chuck, the reason you're in so much pain and suffering is because you're out of integrity. And I didn't know what that meant exactly, you know, But but if integrity was the missing ingredient, I wanted to figure out what it was. 

Rich Bennett 4:59
Right. 

Chuck Chapman 4:59
And so I started studying, you know, theologies and sociology and psychology and philosophy and all of this stuff to try to figure out, you know, what does it mean to actually be in in integrity? What I discovered was, at least for me, was it's not just one thing. It's it's a bunch of things. Integrity. The first root of the word is Integra, which means encompassing. Okay, so integrity is a group of things. 

Integrity is, for me, my core values and virtues. And when I'm operating in my core values and virtues and I'm in integrity, then I'm serving my purpose in life. And I believe my purpose and everybody's purpose is to be someone who transmits love both for yourself and others. 

And I came up with 16 different core values for myself that I found, and that that if I live by these things in general, I'm in integrity. Now, I'm never always in integrity, right? I'm always kind of out of it. But these 16 virtues kind of gave me a roadmap to kind of look at my life and say, okay, what do I need right here in this circumstance and this this area? And so I started walking this path of integrity. And I found that when I did that, I wasn't in a lot of pain at least I wasn't suffering in any way. Right. But for example, let's say I had a had a difficult conversation with someone I needed to have with somebody in my life avoiding that conversation. What do I need in that moment, Lenny? Courage. I need grace, empathy. I need kindness. I need forgiveness. You know, I need all of these different things. So when I approach a conversation with courage and empathy and kindness and grace, it's difficult. I have the conversation. And then I find. Well, it really wasn't that difficult after all. 

Rich Bennett 7:04
Right. 

Chuck Chapman 7:04
What if I avoid that conversation? What happens? I start feeling. Feeling the pain of it, right? 

Rich Bennett 7:12
Yeah. 

Chuck Chapman 7:12
So that's that's in a really small nutshell. The theory of all of this is, is to walk in integrity means to define your core values and use those as a roadmap for whatever you're faced in life. 

Rich Bennett 7:28
Okay. So all of this came about after the cancer, right? 

Chuck Chapman 7:34
Correct? Yeah. Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 7:35
And after the second marriage. 

Chuck Chapman 7:40
Correct. 

Rich Bennett 7:41
Basically started when you were in AA. 

Chuck Chapman 7:43
Correct. Right. Right. 

Rich Bennett 7:45
Okay. So did this actually help you in recovery as. 

Chuck Chapman 7:51
Yes. Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 7:53
All right. I got to ask you, Chuck. How many years now? 

Chuck Chapman 7:56
13. 

Rich Bennett 7:58
30 years sober. 

Chuck Chapman 8:00
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 8:00
Awesome. Meg, congratulations. 

Chuck Chapman 8:02
Feel. 

Rich Bennett 8:02
That is. That is good. I take it these 

are, I want to say techniques, but they're not techniques. 

Chuck Chapman 8:11
Virtues are values. 

Rich Bennett 8:12
Yeah. 

I take it these led to your book. Fine. Yourself. 

Chuck Chapman 8:19
Right. 

Rich Bennett 8:20
What's it? 

Chuck Chapman 8:21
Yeah, exactly. And that's what the book is all about, right? The book is is kind of like starts out with my story that I just gave you and talks about that. And then each chapter talks about one of the 16 virtues and the, you know, the six virtues. I'll just read in real quick with courage Assertiveness, tenacity, loyalty, wisdom, honesty, humility, generosity, temperance, excellence, patience, self-mastery, justice, empathy, grace and forgiveness. 

Rich Bennett 8:54
Okay with those. And let's take courage first. 

Chuck Chapman 8:58
Yeah, 

Rich Bennett 8:59
Those. 

Chuck Chapman 8:59
that's my favorite. 

Rich Bennett 9:01
A lot of times. People have a hard time finding Kurt. 

Chuck Chapman 9:05
Absolutely. 

Rich Bennett 9:07
So how do you find courage? 

Chuck Chapman 9:10
Well, I think the thing about courage is an understanding of what the word actually means. People think courage means. I'm not afraid. 

Rich Bennett 9:18
Right. 

Chuck Chapman 9:19
Courage actually means, I'm afraid, and I override that fear and do the thing anyway. Okay, so these virtues are not natural to us. Right. So it's not natural to be courageous. It's natural to, like, hide behind the corner. Right. 

Rich Bennett 9:37
Yes. 

Chuck Chapman 9:38
So if it's not natural, we need to override our nature. And how do we overrate our nature? We need something that's super natural. Overcome that. And so that's where I talk about the idea of spirit and spirituality for all of us, that in that we're both physical and we're spiritual. And the spiritual part of you is that part that you can tap into that says, I'm afraid, but I'm going to do it anyway. 

Rich Bennett 10:06
Hmm. 

Chuck Chapman 10:07
And so when I learn it and here's the thing about courage in all of these virtues, for that matter, is every time I practice it, it's like putting in a rep, you know, it's like lifting a weight. 

Rich Bennett 10:18
Yeah. 

Chuck Chapman 10:18
So every time I practice courage, my courage muscle gets a little bigger and things get a little bit easier. So now where, you know, maybe, let's say I have a difficult conversation with somebody and I think about it, ruminate about it, and I'm, you know, three days later, I finally have the work up, the courage to have the conversation. Now it's pretty much just like, oh, I need courage right now. You know, I'm feeling that little bit of fear inside of me. That's okay. Check that. Let's go and have the let's go have the conversation. And so it's with practice sort of overriding our natural tendencies, that gives us the ability to walk in integrity. 

Rich Bennett 11:02
Okay. 

It's with these. And I take it with you being a coach. 

Chuck Chapman 11:08
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 11:09
You actually sit down with your. I don't want to say patience. 

Chuck Chapman 11:13
Our clients. Patients. What are your. 

Rich Bennett 11:15
Yeah. And you? Well, you got the roadmap right there. You got your damn book. 

Chuck Chapman 11:19
Right. 

Rich Bennett 11:20
You actually sit down with them and go through those with each one. 

Chuck Chapman 11:24
Yeah. So that's that's part of it. Okay. But but, but 16 virtues is a lot to remember. 

Rich Bennett 11:32
Right. 

Chuck Chapman 11:32
Right. 

Rich Bennett 11:32
Well, that's why they need your book. 

Chuck Chapman 11:34
The. But what I ask people to do is look for your top five. 

Rich Bennett 11:40
Okay. 

Chuck Chapman 11:40
That's easier to remember your top five. So I've given you 16 of them that you can look at. 

Rich Bennett 11:47
Okay. 

Chuck Chapman 11:48
But. 

Rich Bennett 11:49
Top five. 

Chuck Chapman 11:49
So my top five courage is number one. 

Rich Bennett 11:53
Okay. Makes sense. 

Chuck Chapman 11:56
And I point out in the book, Courage is Your North Star. Okay. Every virtue that you're going to do or or practice requires courage. 

Rich Bennett 12:05
Yeah. 

Chuck Chapman 12:07
My second is Grace. 

And and Grace is a deep one, because Grace isn't. I mean, we think of grace. We think of like, you know, a dancer or somebody like that moves gracefully or something like. But Grace is basically a gift you give to someone else without them deserving it. In order to give someone forgiveness, you have to have grace. You don't deserve my forgiveness. But I'm going to offer you because grace is important to me. A gift that you don't deserve. Right. And so that also requires a lot of courage on my part. 

Rich Bennett 12:50
Yeah. 

Chuck Chapman 12:52
So I am going to practice. Grace Excuse me. Courage. Grace. 

Tenacity. That's another one that I love. Tenacity is is the ability to keep going even when you feel like you're going nowhere. 

Rich Bennett 13:11
Right. 

Chuck Chapman 13:12
You know, there are these there's these videos you can watch on YouTube and Instagram, whatnot. These boulders is giant bolt like the size of a house. Right. And there's this guy with the sledgehammer. And he's got this little like a railroad tie pin. Couple of them in the back. And he hits this pin and he hits it. And nothing is happening. Nothing. You know, and he keeps hitting it and he keeps hitting it Keeps hitting. And also, this boulder, the size of a house is splits in half. Right. And the science behind it is that every time he hits one of those little pins, these little micro fractions are starting to take place on the inside. 

Rich Bennett 13:49
Right. 

Chuck Chapman 13:49
And that's what tenacity is. You can't see it on the outside, but you have to have this faith that if I keep hitting that rock, that eventually it's going to split apart. And so it's the ability to not quit in the midst of when things feel like you're never getting. You're never going to accomplish it. Right. 

Rich Bennett 14:09
Yeah. 

Chuck Chapman 14:11
It took tenacity to write this book, you know. 

Rich Bennett 14:14
It's funny, every time I think of tenacity, I for some reason in my head, I always pictured the little 

Yorkie or what do you call the other one's Chihuahua? 

Chuck Chapman 14:27
That's what I have. 

Rich Bennett 14:29
Going after the big Rottweiler. That little dose got a lot of tenacity. Some. 

Chuck Chapman 14:34
For sure. 

Rich Bennett 14:35
He got balls. 

Chuck Chapman 14:36
Gerhard has maybe a little stupidity. 

Rich Bennett 14:40
But I love that because the courage. Yes, you definitely. Well, if you didn't have the courage, you wouldn't. 

Chuck Chapman 14:49
You wouldn't be able to do anything. 

Rich Bennett 14:51
Yeah, Especially you, if everything you've been through. Grace. God, I really love that. Because one of the things we're always told that you should always forgive. But, yeah, you need Grace to forgive. 

Chuck Chapman 15:03
In order for you. 

Rich Bennett 15:03
May never forget. 

Chuck Chapman 15:05
Right. 

Rich Bennett 15:06
But you got. Yeah. You 

Chuck Chapman 15:07
Right. 

Rich Bennett 15:07
know, forgiven. But tenacity. Wow. 

Chuck Chapman 15:09
Hmm. 

Rich Bennett 15:10
That you're right. Yeah, I'm sure did take tenacity to write the book. 

Chuck Chapman 15:15
Yeah. Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 15:16
You know. 

Chuck Chapman 15:17
Yeah. And one of the. 

Rich Bennett 15:18
It takes tenacity. You do a lot of things. 

Chuck Chapman 15:20
To do anything. Really? Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 15:23
I mean, hell, it took tenacity for I mean, you're doing the podcast now. 

Chuck Chapman 15:28
You're doing a podcast and you know. Yeah, 

Rich Bennett 15:30
I didn't think I would ever do that. I mean, I'm a deejay. I always played music. I didn't talk to people, you know, so. 

Chuck Chapman 15:37
right. 

Rich Bennett 15:39
Oh, okay. I'm sorry. You said today. 

Chuck Chapman 15:41
I'm 

Rich Bennett 15:42
I 

Chuck Chapman 15:42
sorry. 

Rich Bennett 15:42
loved these virtues 

Chuck Chapman 15:43
Yeah, 

Rich Bennett 15:43
of. 

Chuck Chapman 15:43
yeah, yeah. So. Courage, Grace. Tenacity. Temperance. 

Rich Bennett 15:50
Oh, 

Chuck Chapman 15:52
This is temperance is an old word. We don't use it much these days. 

Rich Bennett 15:55
yeah. 

Chuck Chapman 15:55
Okay? Basically, it means all things in moderation. Okay. Too much of anything can kill you. Too much oxygen, too much water, too much caffeine. You know, if you have too much of anything, it can kill you. And. And so temperance is learning to balance between what's good for me and what's excessive for me. And temperance is a balance act. Okay? So that 

I have to. 

Create in my life balance. And I would say, like for me, success is balance. Because if you have too much of anything, right, then you're not in balance. You're not enjoying your success. And I talk about six different things with temperance that you need balance and physical, emotional, spiritual, relational, financial and recreational. These are the six domains of my life that I try to keep in balance, healthy body, healthy mind, healthy spirit, balanced relationships, my finance is are in order and recreational. And that's the one we typically leave out. You got to have fun. If you're not having fun, something's wrong, right? 

Rich Bennett 17:16
Exactly. 

Chuck Chapman 17:17
All right. So I want to have a balanced life and temperance. I want to make sure all six of these things are kind of column like spinning plates. You know, they're spinning and out of balance easily, right? 

The temperance is keeping those things in balance. So what I say here, I said courage, Grace. 

Rich Bennett 17:38
Grace. 

Chuck Chapman 17:40
What? 

Rich Bennett 17:42
Courage. Grace. 

Chuck Chapman 17:44
Tenacity, Temperance. 

Rich Bennett 17:45
Temperance. 

Chuck Chapman 17:46
All right, let's give you one more. 

I want to go with. Let's go with forgiveness. 

Rich Bennett 17:58
That's something that's hard for a lot of people. 

Chuck Chapman 18:01
Or. 

Rich Bennett 18:02
I'm right. This one I'm going to enjoy because. Yeah, it's. 

Chuck Chapman 18:08
This is a biggie. 

Rich Bennett 18:09
Yeah. I'll let you get. 

Chuck Chapman 18:10
Here's the thing. It's like you don't get through life without somebody hurting you. 

Rich Bennett 18:14
Exactly. 

Chuck Chapman 18:15
Right. And what is forgiveness? Is somebody did something to you that hurt generally. And what they did was they created a debt. You know, old school eye for an eye kind of thing. Right. So you take my eye. You created a debt I owe you taking your eye. 

And forgiveness is basically saying I am going to give up my right to collect on the debt. So think about like this. Let's say I came to you and I said, Rich, can I borrow ten bucks? I'll pay you back next week. Yeah, sure, sure. Here you go. Ten bucks. Next week I come back. I'm like, rich. Oh, my gosh. I forgot the ten bucks. I'll get you next week. Next week comes. Same thing next week. Next week comes right after a while. You might just say, Chuck, don't worry about it. Ten bucks. I forgive the debt. I am going to not. You don't owe me the $10 anymore. So that is forgiveness. I have given up my right to collect on the debt. 

Rich Bennett 19:18
Wouldn't it be nice? 

Chuck Chapman 19:18
Now. 

Rich Bennett 19:19
Did that. 

Chuck Chapman 19:21
Let's say I come back in a week and I'm like, Hey, Rich, can I borrow ten bucks? And you go, No. And I say, Why not? You said we didn't pay it back last time. And I said, Yeah, but you forgave me. 

Rich Bennett 19:31
Not really. If I want to give it to you again. I. 

Chuck Chapman 19:33
Well, this is where trust comes into play, I think. Right. 

Rich Bennett 19:38
Yes. 

Chuck Chapman 19:39
So I give up my right to collect on the debt. But trust has been broken and hasn't been restored yet. 

So the person you can forgive somebody say, I give up my right to collect on the debt, but that doesn't mean you have to trust them. 

Rich Bennett 19:59
Right. 

Chuck Chapman 20:01
The person who creates the debt in the first place then says, I want to become trustworthy in the way I'm going to do that is through consistency over a period of time. So I might come back and say, Rich, I know you forgave the debt, but I'm going to give you the ten bucks and here's a dollar for interest. And then you see me go and borrow ten bucks from somebody over there. And the next week I pay him back and ten bucks from somebody else. And the next week I pay him back. And you see this change within me. Now, when I come to you and I'm like, Hey, Rich, can I borrow ten bucks? You're more likely to give it to me because you've seen a change within me that has been working towards restoration. So we'll see this happen oftentimes. Let's say, for example, you are in a marriage relationship where there's an affair that happens. All right. So the the person who had the affair and the person, you know, the person who was the the non offending partner. Might say, I can forgive you, but I don't necessarily trust you at this point. Right. The person that had the affair has to work to restore the trust. Okay. So just because I've forgiven you doesn't mean I trust you. 

And trust is restored by becoming trustworthy. And trustworthiness is restored after a a oftentimes a long period of time of You've seen me act consistently. 

Rich Bennett 21:36
Huh? Okay. And it makes it makes a lot of sense. So courage. 

Chuck Chapman 21:45
Was it removable? 

Rich Bennett 21:47
Grace, Tenacity. Temperance. 

Chuck Chapman 21:50
Forgiveness. 

Rich Bennett 21:51
And forgiveness. 

Chuck Chapman 21:52
Yeah, Those are my top five. 

Rich Bennett 21:53
Well, yeah, I guess trust is probably one of these virtues as well. Right. 

Chuck Chapman 21:57
Well, I think trust is a result of the virtues. 

Rich Bennett 22:00
Okay 

Chuck Chapman 22:01
Right? 

Rich Bennett 22:02
since. 

Chuck Chapman 22:02
Yeah. That trust is something that. And that's the thing about trust. It is it's like it's foundational for every single relationship. 

Rich Bennett 22:13
Yeah. 

Chuck Chapman 22:13
You know, if I don't have to, if I don't trust you, then we can't have a good relationship. So it's a foundation, but it's a foundation of glass. It's easily broken and hard to restore. Which is why we have to have a lot of respect, I think, for the idea of trust in the relationship. 

Rich Bennett 22:32
So when you mention when you're talking about all this something, I'm going back and I'm thinking about your first marriage. 

Chuck Chapman 22:39
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 22:41
With the drinking. 

Chuck Chapman 22:43
Mm hmm. 

Rich Bennett 22:44
Did that start during the first marriage or before? 

Chuck Chapman 22:48
Yeah, it. It started during the first marriage. No, it wasn't. I was a. Functional alcoholic. You know, I hadn't had a job, but I was drinking every day. 

And. 

Rich Bennett 23:01
But then the cancer came. 

Chuck Chapman 23:03
Cancer came. 

Rich Bennett 23:06
Bankruptcy. 

Chuck Chapman 23:07
Bankruptcy, all of those kind of things, all divorce and 

Rich Bennett 23:10
So a lot 

Chuck Chapman 23:10
then. 

Rich Bennett 23:10
of it goes back to the first marriage. 

Yeah. So I guess I guess. Well, my question is, you know, were have you talked to your first wife and were you able to forgive her? And do you still have? Yeah. Do you still talk to her? 

Chuck Chapman 23:31
Yeah. Yeah, I do. I do. Still talk to her. I mean, 

first of all, we have a daughter together, and our daughter, our daughter has special needs. So, you know, I forget to mention that part of the, the stress as well. Yeah. So she's developmentally disabled. Um, 

so my, my ex-wife is always going to be in my life because we share a daughter who's going to, you know, always, always going to need us at some level. No, Chrissy, my daughter is a wonderful person. She's high functioning, but, you know, she'd never be able to, like, live on her own. She'll never get married, never have a job. But she's conversational. She's able to take care of herself a lot, you know, those kind of things. But. 

My I think the reason we stayed together as long as we did was because of my daughter, because we really didn't have a great marriage. You know, we were friends. But as far as what a marriages should look like, we I don't think I don't think we had that. 

It took me a while to get to a point to be able to forgive her. 

Rich Bennett 24:43
Mm hmm. 

Chuck Chapman 24:44
I mean, I felt like the victim and that that 

Rich Bennett 24:46
Right. 

Chuck Chapman 24:46
that's that's part of the part of the issue I think of, you know, walking in integrity is you you take full responsibility for your side of the street. And when I did my inventory, 

you know, I took full responsibility for everything in my life when I was working through the steps and 

I have forgiven her. We actually have a great relationship right now. She's remarried to a wonderful lady. I've got a great relationship with with all all of them. And 

I. I grieve the loss of the dream of what I thought marriage would be. 

Rich Bennett 25:33
Right. 

Chuck Chapman 25:34
And yet 

I'm so grateful to her. It sounds weird, but she had the balls 

to say, This isn't working for me. 

And now I'll also mention that both of us grew up in a very strong evangelical Christian home. And this was back in the nineties when being gay was. Not acceptable. And 

Rich Bennett 26:08
Right. 

Chuck Chapman 26:08
and so when she came out, that took a such a huge courage on her part. 

Rich Bennett 26:15
Courage. Yes. 

Chuck Chapman 26:16
So much and I got nothing but respect for her. You know. 

Rich Bennett 26:22
Yeah. 

Chuck Chapman 26:22
In hindsight now, when it happened, I felt betrayed and I felt like, you know, ripped off and, you know, all these kind of things. But after a while, I'll look at her and I'm like, that was probably one of the most courageous acts I've seen somebody do where she's just like, I've got to live in my own integrity. In my own truth. And the cost of that for her was friends, family. Her parents disowned her for about 15 years. 

Rich Bennett 26:50
Wow. 

Chuck Chapman 26:51
She just recently 

started. Her parents had started the restoration process with her. But she lost friends. She lost the community. 

So the cost that she decided to, you know. 

You know, weigh in. I got nothing but respect for that. 

Rich Bennett 27:19
And you mentioned loss. She lost you, but she didn't lose you because like you said, you guys actually get along better now. 

Chuck Chapman 27:29
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 27:30
Then when you were married. 

Chuck Chapman 27:31
Right. Right. 

Rich Bennett 27:34
It's a lot of it's got to do with your daughter. 

Chuck Chapman 27:38
A lot of it. 

Rich Bennett 27:39
I went through the same thing. You. 

Chuck Chapman 27:41
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 27:42
Mother. We get along better now than when. 

Chuck Chapman 27:44
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 27:44
Gather. 

Chuck Chapman 27:45
Mm hmm. 

Rich Bennett 27:46
It's amazing. It's funny how things work. 

Chuck Chapman 27:48
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 27:49
You know, with your daughter. You said she's got a 

Chuck Chapman 27:53
Yeah, that's good. 

Rich Bennett 27:54
developing discipline. 

Chuck Chapman 27:55
The developmental disability, meaning that would be the the old word would be retarded, you know. Okay. That. 

Rich Bennett 28:01
Okay. Well, so is it Down syndrome? 

Chuck Chapman 28:04
No, no, it's. 

She has a rare brain disorder. It's called a genesis of the corpus callosum. Big word for the part of the brain that connects that to hemispheres is missing. 

Rich Bennett 28:15
Okay. 

Chuck Chapman 28:16
And and that results in what they call development a global developmental delay. So intellectually, she's like, I want say like a nine or ten year old in a 33 year old's body. 

You know, here's an example. 

Yesterday we were talking I was driving in the car with her and she was she was talking about this, you know, something that happened with her mom and it was upsetting her. Am I, Honey, let's let's let's change the subject. Let's talk about something that brings us joy and happiness. So I said, what's your favorite Disney princess? That's a that's her level of And she's like, Oh, that's a hard one, you know? She's like, It's Belle and Pocahontas. But the point being that that's her level of 

enjoyment. She loves Disney princesses. She loves everything, right? Probably like a nine, nine or ten year old would love. And so the one hand, she's very, very innocent. But again, she can she can have full conversations with you. It's just like that. That's about as far as she developed. Was about a ten year old. 

Rich Bennett 29:32
I have a funny feeling, too. When you're sitting there having conversations with her, you are smiling and laughing your ass off. 

Chuck Chapman 29:38
Oh, yeah, 

Rich Bennett 29:40
Yeah. 

Chuck Chapman 29:40
yeah, yeah. 

Rich Bennett 29:41
And I had a cousin that had Down's syndrome, and. Oh, my God, I can't. Every time I saw her, it was just such a. 

Chuck Chapman 29:51
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 29:54
And if I did something wrong, she would. 

Chuck Chapman 29:55
Right. 

Rich Bennett 29:56
In a heartbeat. 

Chuck Chapman 29:57
Yeah. And that's the thing about Christy is like, she is she is so joyful and. Loving and caring and I mean, I can't. I have learned more in my life as a result of her being my daughter than I ever would have been. And that is such a 

gift. To have that, know, that there's part of me that's like, if I had a magic pill, the changer, would I do it? You know, because you think about it, she's perfectly happy. I mean, she's got a fortunately, she's got a really great, 

you know, community around her that loves her and supports her and takes care of her. But everybody, we want the same thing for our children. We just want to be happy. Well, Chrissy is the happiest person I know. 

Rich Bennett 30:47
It's up 

Chuck Chapman 30:47
You 

Rich Bennett 30:47
a. 

Chuck Chapman 30:47
know she does. We'll go or we'll be walking around someplace, store or something, and somebody will be like, So you're like, Hey, crazy, how are you doin? You know? And they'll start talking. And then and I'm like, How did you know that person? And she says, Oh, there was a, a cashier at the store that my mom and I shop at, that she just she was like, she wherever she goes, she's like in conversation with people like, Hey, how are you doing? My name's Chrissy. My favorite color is yellow. What's yours? You know, that's the kind of. 

Rich Bennett 31:17
Oh, my God. I would love to meet her. 

Chuck Chapman 31:19
Right. I know, I. 

Rich Bennett 31:21
I'm serious. Just. I just. 

Chuck Chapman 31:23
To have that kind of joy all the time. 

Rich Bennett 31:25
It. It. I just. It makes you smile. 

Chuck Chapman 31:30
It does. 

Rich Bennett 31:30
So much. And you're right. It just brings the one thing I miss. I mentioned this Sometimes you remember God years ago, the Special Olympics used to have huggers. 

Chuck Chapman 31:43
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 31:45
Me and my brothers. We were all and my sister too. We were always huggers because 

Chuck Chapman 31:48
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 31:49
of my cousin, but I don't even think they have that anymore. 

Chuck Chapman 31:52
Yeah, I think you're right. 

Rich Bennett 31:53
Something I miss. And I think that's something. 

Chuck Chapman 31:56
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 31:57
We need to bring back. 

Chuck Chapman 31:58
I agree. I agree, you know. 

Rich Bennett 32:01
I always see kids, but there are young adults in. 

Chuck Chapman 32:04
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 32:04
They all love that. 

Chuck Chapman 32:05
They do. 

Rich Bennett 32:07
Yeah. Oh, man. Oh, God. So, actually, when did the book come out? 

Chuck Chapman 32:14
Came out March 1st. Yeah, March 1st. It was out. So it's been out for. 

Rich Bennett 32:18
All right. 

Chuck Chapman 32:18
You. 

Rich Bennett 32:19
So the book came out March 1st, 2023. 

Chuck Chapman 32:25
24. 

Rich Bennett 32:27
24. That's right. We're 20. But in May of 2023, you started something else. And you. 

Chuck Chapman 32:36
Are you talking about? My podcast. 

Rich Bennett 32:39
Your podcast. 

Chuck Chapman 32:39
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Rich Bennett 32:41
All right. I love talking to other podcasters. 

Chuck Chapman 32:44
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 32:45
So is your podcast about the same thing? Yeah. The work that you're doing and the psychotherapies and all that. 

Chuck Chapman 32:52
Mm hmm. Yeah. So the work that I do, the work that I do. 

I work with men and I work with men who identify as nice guys. Okay. Now is a book by a guy named Robert Glover called No More Mr. Nice Guy. 

Rich Bennett 33:11
Yes. 

Chuck Chapman 33:12
Have you read that? You're familiar with 

Rich Bennett 33:13
No, 

Chuck Chapman 33:13
it. 

Rich Bennett 33:14
I haven't. But 

Chuck Chapman 33:14
Okay. 

Rich Bennett 33:14
I've heard of the book. Also. Awesome song, too, by the 

Chuck Chapman 33:18
Yeah, 

Rich Bennett 33:18
way. 

Chuck Chapman 33:18
you're right. Right. Alice Cooper. 

Yeah. So I read that book back when I was getting sober, and it was profound to me because it was like, This guy's been following me around all my life and writing my life story like, I am a nice guy, okay? But the thing about a nice guy in relation to the nice guy syndrome is nice guys are fraudulently nice, Meaning I will tell you what I think you want to hear, but go ahead and do the thing that I want to do. Okay? So I might say, yeah, I can do that for you, but I'll do a half assed job because I really didn't want to do it in the first place. Nice guys. They typically they give to get. So can you do something for me when we call that a covert contract? Right. I'm going to do something for you. And so the nice guy has this this this belief that if I'm. If I meet everybody else's needs around me without them asking, they won't meet my needs without me asking. And when other people don't meet my needs, when I don't ask, I get resentful. And when I get resentful, I can't. It comes out in passive aggressive ways. I show up late. I do a half assed job. 

Rich Bennett 34:37
Right. 

Chuck Chapman 34:37
You know, 

sarcasm. That's a big one. And and I realize one of the things that was going on with me and again, this is part of the integrity piece of it is nice guys are out of integrity because. 

Like I said, they give to get they will cover up their mistakes. They'll tell a half truth. You know, when you ask a nice guy if he's honest, I'm pretty honest. You know, it's kind of like being kind of pregnant. Right. You know, if they're honest or not. And and so after I read that book, I got in contact with the author and he and I started to develop a friendship and I started working with him, uh, probably about six years ago now. He and I started working together. I was I was helping him. 

I became one of his certified. No more Mr. Nice Guy coaches. He had a certification process, so I went through that. Through? 

Rich Bennett 35:37
Wait a minute. Hold up. 

Chuck Chapman 35:38
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 35:38
There's. You could become a certified. No more Mr. Nice Guy, Coach. 

Chuck Chapman 35:43
Yeah. Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 35:44
Really? 

Chuck Chapman 35:45
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. 

Rich Bennett 35:48
This is intriguing. 

Chuck Chapman 35:50
Okay. We will go back to that. Yeah. So I became a certified No. One. Mr. Nice Guy. Coach got to know him. Started helping him with some of his. His things like answering his emails and things like that and got on his payroll. And then about a year and a half ago, he, myself and four other coaches, we created something called Integration Nation and it is a online 

community of men who. Our nice guys who want to do better. And we have we have a call every day that a guy can connect on somewhere in the in the world. The different time zone. We have we have a group called it lasts for about an hour. Every week Dr. Glover gets on and leads. Leads a call. Today, actually, after this, I'm helping him with that next call. And that's about a year. It's an hour and a half call. And then there's a social media kind of component, a bulletin board. You know, you can go on there and post, hey, I'm struggling with this and get, you know, feedback from other guys. So Integration nation. That's the that's the product that we created about, like I said, a year and a half ago, and I think we have 300 members right now in that community and it's just growing really well. 

But my podcast is all about nice guy recovery, because I think recovery from one of the things that he even points out in the book is oftentimes nice guys have hidden addictions, you know, whether that's gambling, porn, shopping, you know, there's generally something that we tend to hide that's an addictive component of that. And so the work that I do with men is around this nice guy syndrome. So I coach men helping them break free of their nice guy syndrome. And my method is, like I said, I think nice guys are out of integrity is to get back into integrity. And I even point this out in the book. You're never fully in integrity, right? Just like a an airplane, right? You're going if I'm going to Portland, to New York, Right. And I said, of course, for I don't know what that would be. Do something. 

East. East, I. 

Rich Bennett 38:23
I had to think for a moment. 

Chuck Chapman 38:28
That airplane is constantly being blown off course. 

Rich Bennett 38:31
Right. 

Chuck Chapman 38:31
The wind and everything, right? So there's a constant reconnection that the pilot has to make, and that's what integrity is. I'm constantly being challenged by these things, and so I'm constantly course correcting my being honest. Am I being, you know, am I am I showing up with kindness? Am I showing up with grace? And by showing up with courage? You know, am I being loyal, you know? Am I working on myself? You know, these kind of things. And as I'm asking myself these questions, then I might continue in that that, you know, that space. But it's a continuous course correction. But if you don't have the language around knowing what it is that you're supposed to do, then you don't know how to do it. Which is why I think that, you know, the book I wrote gives that roadmap to give you the language to know this is what I need to work on in my life. So, yeah. 

Rich Bennett 39:26
Okay, So for those of you listening, no more Mr. Nice Guy is not a negative thing. 

Chuck Chapman 39:34
Right. 

Rich Bennett 39:35
It's a positive. 

Chuck Chapman 39:37
It's a positive thing. 

Rich Bennett 39:38
Where's the nice guy? 

Chuck Chapman 39:40
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 39:41
Is the negative thing. 

Chuck Chapman 39:42
Right, right, right, right, right. 

Rich Bennett 39:44
Okay. 

Chuck Chapman 39:44
Yeah. So 

Rich Bennett 39:45
Wow. 

Chuck Chapman 39:45
if we think about it like so, like is again, the nice guy, Like he's nice to your face. Right. 

Rich Bennett 39:50
Yeah. 

Chuck Chapman 39:50
But then he'll go turn around and talk shit behind your back. 

Rich Bennett 39:54
So in other words, it's basically the devil. And you're not seeing his true face. 

Chuck Chapman 39:58
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Rich Bennett 40:00
Wow. 

Chuck Chapman 40:01
You know. 

Rich Bennett 40:02
I like that. 

Chuck Chapman 40:02
Yeah. And so 

that was a nice guy. That was part of my problem. You know, I would tell you what I thought you wanted to hear because I wanted everybody to like and love me. And if you didn't like and love me, then I didn't feel like I didn't feel good about myself. 

Rich Bennett 40:20
It's interesting, too, how you mentioned that. Yeah, all nice guys basically have a hidden addiction somewhere. 

Wow. 

Chuck Chapman 40:28
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 40:29
Glover Right. 

Chuck Chapman 40:30
Yeah. So, Dr. Glover. Dr.. 

Rich Bennett 40:32
Two books I have to get now. 

Chuck Chapman 40:33
Yeah. Yeah. So I actually wrote a spec. I wrote an addendum to No more Mr. Nice Guy a couple of years ago called No More Mr. Nice Guy. The 30 day Recovery Journal. And it's it's a journal workbook kind of thing. And each day for 30 days takes one of the principals from No more. Mr. Nice Guy has a, you know, a little reading about it and then a couple of questions on it and then a place for you to journal about that. And you can get that on Amazon as well. 

But yeah, so, so I've done extensive work in this nice guy syndrome, working with nice guys. It's what I do with my job pretty much all the men that I work with are nice guys or recovering nice guys. 

Rich Bennett 41:17
Wow. 

Chuck Chapman 41:19
A nice guy also is he carries a lot of shame. 

Rich Bennett 41:23
Yeah. Oh. 

Chuck Chapman 41:24
You know, like this core belief that, like, there's something wrong with me. I'm not lovable and acceptable, just as I am. And so I have to be different in order for. I have to get people to like me. You know? I have to. 

Yeah. I here with. 

Rich Bennett 41:42
Yeah. I have to know about this. How do you get certified as a. 

Chuck Chapman 41:46
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 41:47
No more Mr. Nice Guy. 

Chuck Chapman 41:49
Dr. Globacom. 

It's got a link on there to become a certified. No more Mr. Nice Guy, Coach. 

Integration Nation dot net. If you want to join our community and if you want to find out more about the coaching I have, it's just Chuck Chapman dot com. 

Rich Bennett 42:08
That's easy one to remember 

Chuck Chapman 42:09
That's easy one to remember, right? 

Rich Bennett 42:10
he website. 

Chuck Chapman 42:11
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Rich Bennett 42:13
Actually with your book. Is it also in audio form? 

Chuck Chapman 42:16
It is right now. You know, Amazon had that little thing where you can just do a and I, I was like. Yeah, well, you can just turn your book into an audio book with A.I., and it sounds pretty good. So I. I went ahead and did that, but I'm going to be rerecording it in my own voice over the next month. And have it available in audio as well. 

Rich Bennett 42:38
Good 

Chuck Chapman 42:38
But yeah, I want to have it in all formats, right? You know. 

Rich Bennett 42:41
thinking. 

Chuck Chapman 42:41
You know, book format, e-book, audio, all that, because everybody consumes differently. 

Rich Bennett 42:49
So so with the podcast, what made you decide to actually just I'm going to start a podcast. 

Chuck Chapman 43:00
Well, a couple of things that that went on there. 

I have a friend of mine who started a YouTube channel about four years ago, and I was a second subscriber. And 

when I started this a year and a half ago, he had about 150,000 subscribers. So 

Rich Bennett 43:28
Wow. 

Chuck Chapman 43:28
I was like, And so he was my inspiration. Like, his name's Orion. He does what's called Psych Axe. And, you know, he said he's going to do this YouTube channel. And I was like, Yeah, good luck. You know, with that, you know, like how many people start a YouTube channel and then, you know, after about a month. 

Rich Bennett 43:43
I did it till I broke the camera on me. 

Chuck Chapman 43:45
Right. Right. But now this guy, he did it. And and I was like, brother, how how did you do that? And he's like, just consistency, you know? And so 

Rich Bennett 43:53
Yeah. 

Chuck Chapman 43:53
I was like, okay, if you can do it, I can do it. So I started working on this podcast. You know, it's a, it, it's, you know, available on YouTube and Spotify and all the other. 

Rich Bennett 44:06
Yeah. 

Chuck Chapman 44:08
They. 

Rich Bennett 44:09
Glad you went that way. 

Chuck Chapman 44:10
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 44:10
Where it's on all podcast. 

Chuck Chapman 44:12
Yeah, because I think everybody, you know, like I said, everybody consumes differently. And 

Rich Bennett 44:16
Yeah. 

Chuck Chapman 44:16
some people consume on YouTube, some people prefer Spotify or Apple or whatever. I want to make it available to as many people as possible. And so it's just called the recovery. Nice guy. And they talk about different issues that come up for nice guys. Sometimes they have guest guest interview people who have different specialties and stuff like that to help us understand more. 

Rich Bennett 44:43
Yeah, I'm glad you did that because a lot of a lot of my guests that I speak with. Depending on what you know, what it is they do. 

Chuck Chapman 44:53
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 44:53
I always ask if they thought about starting a podcast, and 

Chuck Chapman 44:56
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 44:56
I'm glad you did because you have a lot to offer. 

Chuck Chapman 44:59
Well, thank you. 

Rich Bennett 45:00
And I'm sure, too, as if writing the book, it's it's like therapy as well. 

Chuck Chapman 45:05
Oh, yeah. Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 45:07
You know. 

Chuck Chapman 45:08
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 45:08
Yes. People listening. Yes. This is therapy for me as well. 

Chuck Chapman 45:12
Right. Yeah. There's nothing wrong with therapy, right? I mean, therapy. I mean, I think that especially men, you know, one of the reasons why I kind of offer, you know, I am a licensed therapist, all right? I'm licensed in the state of Oregon to be a therapist. But 

men, for whatever reason, have a hard time seeking help. 

Rich Bennett 45:33
Yes. 

Chuck Chapman 45:35
And 

when I went to school, I'd become a therapist. Every single one of my classes, it was all women. And it was either me and one another. The guy, or just me in these classes. 

Rich Bennett 45:49
Wow. 

Chuck Chapman 45:51
And one of the reasons I wanted to do this work and share this work was because I think there's so many men out there that could benefit from just having somebody to talk to. 

Just having somebody else that can relate to your struggle. 

Rich Bennett 46:08
Yes. 

Chuck Chapman 46:09
And so I started also offering coaching as a way to reach a broader audience. So coaching is it's a little bit different than therapy. Therapy's a medical model. Okay. I got to give you a diagnosis of anxiety, depression, something like that right now. Send it to your insurance company and they pay me nice guy Syndrome isn't a diagnosis. It's a set of behaviors that kind of work against us. So when I coach guys, I'm basically teaching them how to change their behaviors from the inside out so that they can become men of integrity. That I can hold my head up high, look in the mirror and go, I like that guy because I know that guy. Even though he struggles at the end of the day, 

he wants to be a man of integrity. 

Rich Bennett 47:00
Yeah. 

Chuck Chapman 47:01
I just went to. I just got back this week from, ah, a retreat of men in about 68 men. And I was helping out with that. And at the end of the retreat, the men were making declarations about what they wanted to bring back into their world. And so many of them said, I want to be I want to bring integrity. And then I went to them and I'm like, What does integrity mean to you? And they stopped. They went, 

I don't know. 

Rich Bennett 47:37
They just know the word. 

Chuck Chapman 47:38
I just know the word, right? Yeah. Yeah. And I was like, Let me give you a roadmap. 

Here's a copy of my book. Yeah. 

That we say we want integrity, but we don't actually necessarily know what that means. We might think it means, you know, telling the truth or doing the right thing or whatever. And those are all part of it. But integrity is an integration of your personal values that you operate out of. It's a map that you use as a is a is a way to check yourself and where you're at. And, you know, if you're on the road and you get lost a little bit, what do you do? You pull out your map. 

Rich Bennett 48:22
Well, nowadays you just punch it 

Chuck Chapman 48:23
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 48:23
in 

Chuck Chapman 48:23
You nowadays 

Rich Bennett 48:23
Photoshop. 

Chuck Chapman 48:24
you got on the tubes, but. 

Rich Bennett 48:25
Anybody even know what an atlas. 

Chuck Chapman 48:28
Right. 

Rich Bennett 48:30
I'll tell you one thing. Some of those seats might be worth a lot 

Chuck Chapman 48:32
Right. 

Rich Bennett 48:32
of money. You never know. I love 

Chuck Chapman 48:35
Rebecca, 

Rich Bennett 48:35
that. 

Chuck Chapman 48:35
you're old enough to remember this back in the day. You called triple A and you say, I'm planning this trip. And they would they would give you a bunch of maps that would tell you how to get to where you're going. 

Rich Bennett 48:44
Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's and it's funny because I remember when this first came 

Chuck Chapman 48:51
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 48:52
out. Yeah, we would. We would just go for a ride. 

Chuck Chapman 48:57
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 48:58
You two get lost. And then when it was time to come home, then we punch it into the GPS. But you talk. You talk. That's good therapy there because you're. 

Chuck Chapman 49:07
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 49:07
We the scenery. 

Chuck Chapman 49:09
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 49:10
Everyday you could be driving 4 hours and not. 

Chuck Chapman 49:12
Right. 

Rich Bennett 49:13
I wouldn't recommend it today the way price. 

Chuck Chapman 49:16
Your guest. 

Rich Bennett 49:17
But yeah, I was like. So tell everybody again the website and how they can get your book and also for your podcast. 

Chuck Chapman 49:26
Yeah, sure. So. Yeah. My website is Chuck Chapman dot com. I got the links on there for the book and the podcast and YouTube channel, all that stuff. There. Chuck Chapman, dot com Amazon.com. The name of the book is Finding Your Way Without Losing Yourself The Path of Integrity and the other workbook is No More Mr. Nice Guy The 30 day Recovery Journal. You can find me on most of your social media as I'm Instagram. I'm at Chuck Chapman, Dot, M.A., 

YouTube. It's YouTube at Chuck Chapman. Most everything that I have is Chuck Chapman. 

Rich Bennett 50:05
Right. 

Chuck Chapman 50:05
So just remember those those those two names and you'll probably find me. 

Rich Bennett 50:10
Those of you listening when you purchased the books after you read them, make sure you leave a full review. 

Chuck Chapman 50:18
Thank you. 

Rich Bennett 50:18
These are good reads or whatever, because it's going to drive the algorithm up and it's going to help choke cell. 

Chuck Chapman 50:24
So helpful. 

Rich Bennett 50:25
More books. 

Chuck Chapman 50:26
Thanks for mentioning. 

Rich Bennett 50:28
And the main thing is it's going to help more people out. 

Chuck Chapman 50:30
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Rich Bennett 50:33
We all need that damn road map. 

Chuck Chapman 50:35
Right. 

Rich Bennett 50:35
So I'm looking forward to getting this and I'm going to look into that course as well. And also, was it Integration Nation? 

Chuck Chapman 50:42
Integration nation dot net. 

Rich Bennett 50:44
Love that 

Chuck Chapman 50:45
Yeah, yeah, 

Rich Bennett 50:46
man. 

Chuck Chapman 50:46
yeah. You should. You should check it out. I would, you know. 

Rich Bennett 50:48
I am. 

Chuck Chapman 50:49
Love to have you see around the integration nation and be one of my brothers on No More Mr. Nice Guy. 

Rich Bennett 50:56
I am, without a doubt, because 

Chuck Chapman 50:57
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 50:58
it's just I love that. 

Chuck Chapman 51:00
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 51:01
That year. I would have never thought about that. About how nice guy being a nice guy is negative. But it makes sense now. 

Chuck Chapman 51:09
Right. Right. And I always say just kind of there's a there's a small line between a nice guy and what Robert talks about in the book, becoming an integrated man. And he says the opposite of a nice guy isn't a jerk. Right. The opposite of a nice guy is an integrated man, a man who loves himself, who who loves all parts of himself, who accepts himself just the way that he is with the warts and warts and all. And he operates from integrity. So the line is really short between what I call being a nice guy and a good man. And a good man does things out of an abundance of love. 

Kay That isn't about getting something in return. The nice guy is all about getting something in return. 

Rich Bennett 52:01
Ah, I love. 

Chuck Chapman 52:03
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 52:04
Yeah. That makes sense to think 

Chuck Chapman 52:06
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 52:06
about it. Wow. So before I get to my last question, is there anything you would like to add? 

Chuck Chapman 52:14
Just that I have loved being on this podcast, man. You have been a great host and I'm digging our vibe. 

Rich Bennett 52:23
I'm already thinking about another podcast with you where I would like to get a group of guys together and have a roundtable. 

Chuck Chapman 52:30
Oh, that would be beautiful. Let's do it. 

Rich Bennett 52:32
Oh, I'm good. I'm going to talk to my one co-host. If he's not set up for. I'm glad to get him set up so he can do it virtually, because I know you're not going to fly out here to Maryland just for. 

Chuck Chapman 52:44
Now if you pay me 

Rich Bennett 52:45
A lot 

Chuck Chapman 52:45
to. 

Rich Bennett 52:45
of crabs and oysters in order to do that. 

Chuck Chapman 52:49
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 52:50
So how many podcasts have you been on now? Do you know? Or has it only been a few? 

Chuck Chapman 52:54
There's only been a few. I think I have maybe been on the you know, trying to make the rounds and get the word out about the book. Right. You know, I think I've been on about four or five at this point in the last month. Some of them aren't even published yet, you know, because a podcast 

Rich Bennett 53:08
Right. 

Chuck Chapman 53:08
is like the. 

Rich Bennett 53:11
Because there's a funnel. 

Chuck Chapman 53:12
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 53:13
Oh, I know. I record there sometimes I record eight episodes a. 

Chuck Chapman 53:16
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 53:17
And I only dropped three episodes a week. 

Chuck Chapman 53:20
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 53:21
As I. I got. I was originally doing one episode a week. 

Chuck Chapman 53:26
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 53:27
Then you thanks the pond match. I guess it's a thanks. 

Chuck Chapman 53:31
Yeah. Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 53:31
I don't know, Alex. You're keeping my ass busy. I don't know if that's a good thing, but because of that, I just started, you know, recording more and more. Did learn how to say no. 

Chuck Chapman 53:42
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 53:43
On people because 

Chuck Chapman 53:43
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 53:44
you have to. 

Chuck Chapman 53:45
You do. 

Rich Bennett 53:45
And it's. 

Chuck Chapman 53:47
Part of being a nice guy is I want to 

Rich Bennett 53:49
Yes. 

Chuck Chapman 53:50
yeah, every I want to make everybody happy. So if. I'm going to get overwhelmed with saying yes to everything. You know? 

Rich Bennett 53:59
Well, I learned how to 

because, you know, when you first start your podcast or let me rephrase it. When you want to get guests on your you're thinking that I wanted to talk to everybody. 

Chuck Chapman 54:13
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 54:14
But not everybody fits. You got to watch out for that as well, because some people will they'll come on have had this happen where they're they tried to take over the show. 

Chuck Chapman 54:26
Mm hmm. Sure. 

Rich Bennett 54:28
You don't want that. 

Chuck Chapman 54:29
Now? 

Rich Bennett 54:30
You have some people I've had a couple of people come on and not a couple of maybe one, maybe 

Chuck Chapman 54:35
Mm 

Rich Bennett 54:35
two. 

Chuck Chapman 54:35
hmm. 

Rich Bennett 54:37
Just scared to death. 

Chuck Chapman 54:38
Oh, sure. 

Rich Bennett 54:39
I mean, I've had a lot of people come on, scared. 

Chuck Chapman 54:41
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 54:42
But they were comfortable. They felt. 

Chuck Chapman 54:44
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 54:44
Right away. 

Chuck Chapman 54:45
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 54:46
But there's one or two that just wouldn't I couldn't release it. Just it didn't work. So anyways, with this question, so you might be able to answer it. You might not. 

Chuck Chapman 54:55
All right. 

Rich Bennett 54:56
But. 

Chuck Chapman 54:57
I'll give him a 

Rich Bennett 54:57
Any. 

Chuck Chapman 54:57
shot. 

Rich Bennett 54:59
Is there anything a host has never asked you that you wish they would have asked you? And if so, what would be their question? What would be your answer? 

Chuck Chapman 55:10
Hmm. 

I'm going to say the question that comes to the top of my mind is what gets you excited about getting out of bed in the morning? 

Rich Bennett 55:27
Think I might know the answer, but go ahead. 

Chuck Chapman 55:32
I believe that we are built to serve. 

And everyone has the same purpose in life. I would call this the master purpose, right? The purpose is to leave things a little bit better than the way you found them. 

And every morning I get to get up and serve men who are trying to find out how to become good men. And I get to show them the path. And 

I feel like men today are starving 

for wisdom. We have a ton of information coming at us. But, I mean, as far as like knowing in my heart of hearts what it means to be a man, how to be masculine in the world without being an asshole. 

Rich Bennett 56:36
Yeah. 

Chuck Chapman 56:38
But to be able to show up with courage and tenacity and wisdom and strength and all of these kind of things to make their world a better place. I get to do that every frickin morning, every day, and it lights me up, brother. 

Rich Bennett 56:54
Fills your heart. 

Chuck Chapman 56:55
Love my heart. Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 56:57
I wasn't what I thought you were going to say. 

Chuck Chapman 56:59
What were you? That was a good thing. What was it going? 

Rich Bennett 57:00
I thought you. Say no. No. Just. Just to hear your daughter's voice. 

Chuck Chapman 57:07
Oh, that's another one. That's another one. Sure, sure, sure. 

Rich Bennett 57:11
But I think. 

Chuck Chapman 57:12
I like to be up every day, but it's I think like that's part of again, I think the recovery from the from the nice guy syndrome is to be able to really find your life's purpose. And like I said, I think everybody is built to serve. Our purpose is to give love, make things a little bit better than the way we've found them. How we do that is our mission. 

Rich Bennett 57:33
Right? Absolutely. 

Chuck Chapman 57:35
And and what I try to help guys find is their mission that connects to their passion, that connects to their their purpose. And that then every day becomes 

basically a beautiful day 

because they have an. 

Rich Bennett 57:56
Chuck, I want to thank you so much, man. It's been a. 

Chuck Chapman 57:59
It's been fun. I've been having a blast 

Rich Bennett 58:02
We'll definitely have to talk again. I want 

Chuck Chapman 58:04
through 

Rich Bennett 58:04
to I'm 

Chuck Chapman 58:04
it. 

Rich Bennett 58:04
going to ask you something when we wrap up here. But yeah, definitely. I love the roundtable discussion. We're going to make that. 

Chuck Chapman 58:11
Do that. 

Rich Bennett 58:12
All right. Thanks a lot. 

Chuck Chapman 58:13
My brother.