Jonathan Hunt Glassman on Moderation and Digital Solutions for Alcohol Use Disorder

In this episode of "Conversations with Rich Bennett," sponsored by “Daniel McGhee and the Victory Team,” Rich dives into the world of digital health innovations in addiction treatment with Jonathan Hunt Glassman, CEO of Oar Health. Jonathan shares his personal journey of overcoming alcohol addiction and how Oar Health is transforming the treatment landscape with accessible and effective digital solutions. They discuss the importance of moderation, the benefits of FDA-approved medications like Naltrexone, and the role of telehealth in providing private, convenient care. This insightful conversation sheds light on how technology is revolutionizing recovery and offering new hope to those struggling with alcohol use disorder.

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Transcript

Rich Bennett 0:00
Thanks for joining the conversation where we explore the stories and experiences that shape our world. I'm your host, Rich Bennett. And today, we're diving into the world of digital health innovations in addiction treatment with a very special guest, Jonathan Hunt Glassman. Jonathan is the CEO of Awe Health, a pioneering platform in the fight against alcohol use disorder. With over 15 years of experience across health care giants like Humana, Optum and Bain and Company. And a personal victory over alcohol addiction, Jonathan brings a wealth of knowledge and a unique perspective to our conversation. So join us as we explore how our health is revolutionizing treatment and offering new help through technology. So how's it going, Jonathan? 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 0:50
I'm doing really well today. You know, I'm up here in New York and it is finally starting to feel like spring the last few days, which I think puts all of us in a better mindset. 

Rich Bennett 1:00
Yeah, I'm actually right down the road from you in Maryland, and I think he's like 75 today. And I just before you came out, I checked weather. I see gale warning. I'm like, what? And apparently the rain supposed to start coming in tomorrow for the next couple of days. And high winds is I guess I better take my flags down. 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 1:19
Yeah, I guess. Better enjoy the sunshine while we can. 

Rich Bennett 1:22
But the good thing is, nice weather on Saturday, just windy, no rain. So I can get out there and do our walk, you know, which is a good thing. So actually before I get it, before we get into the. Yeah. Everything about your health and all. Tell us a little bit about yourself because one of the things I love to ask, especially those in recovery, is their story, how it happened and 

how well, well, you know, you're doing well because I mean, how you're CEO of your own company. 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 1:57
Believe it or not, anyone can declare themselves the. 

Rich Bennett 2:00
Well, that is true. It's true. 

But. But with you. When did you. With your. It was alcoholism, right? 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 2:10
That's right. 

Rich Bennett 2:11
When did that start? 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 2:13
Pretty much as early as I started drinking, I started struggling with alcohol. So for me, that was high school. And 

Rich Bennett 2:19
Hmm. 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 2:19
what began as binge drinking in high school, in college became a pattern of drinking to blackout in my twenties. And then as I saw peers start to put that sort of excessive alcohol use behind them, the opposite was happening for me. I was having multiday binges where I was continuously drunk and experiencing the physical and mental health symptoms of alcohol withdrawal on the back end of those. So things were pretty rough. 

Rich Bennett 2:50
And when did you quit? 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 2:52
So my goal was never sobriety and it was moderation. So we can talk more about that. But I feel like I took back control of alcohol. But seven years ago at this point. 

Rich Bennett 3:05
You know what? I'm glad you said that because. Yeah, and everybody's different there. When you mentioned it, you were drinking yourself to blackout and there are people that can't control it in moderation. I know. For me, man, when I left my my one job, my last job and basically started not the publication but started my other business, I think I was going through two or 330 packs a week drinking. And because it was just going down like water. And then finally it was my wife put me in my place and she came home. Yeah, I was drinking. She goes, she goes, I'm, you know, if I break dinner, you need to come get me. You can't do it this way. And it's like, Hey, you know what? You're right. And it was like the same with when I was chewing tobacco. What made me quit was when my daughter and my niece were younger. I was leaving and went to give him a kiss goodbye. And they're like, Ooh, They backed up, said, Me, your breath stinks. Hit you right in the heart, you know? And now it's I don't. I may have a beer every once in a while, you know, maybe a a glass of bourbon, not a bottle. And that's it. But you're right. You got to do it in moderation. Explain that to everybody, because a lot of people don't really understand that. 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 4:34
Yeah. You know, we're at war. And I personally am proud to support folks who both have the goal of sobriety or abstinence and moderation or cutting back. I think sobriety is a fantastic goal. The safest and healthiest level of alcohol consumption for any of us is most likely zero. But I think I'm an example of a group of people for whom total abstinence from alcohol doesn't feel realistic. And 

Rich Bennett 5:06
Right. 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 5:06
so if we insist on that as the only legitimate goal of treatment, we're going to leave a lot of people out of. Getting help and sticking with it, which is kind of self-defeating, especially because the harms from alcohol are pretty linear with the amount consumed. So while zero may be the safest level, a big reduction from the levels of drinking, you were mentioning the levels of drinking I was experiencing to no more than one or two on an occasion, no more than 15 to 20 over the course of a week. That's likely to yield huge benefits in terms. 

Rich Bennett 5:45
Right. 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 5:46
Health and wellbeing. 

Rich Bennett 5:48
Right. So with with you, because now you have your own business or health, can you actually share your personal journey that led you to start that and how your own experiences have shaped actually the company's approach to addiction treatment? 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 6:06
Absolutely. Over the 15 or so years that I struggled with alcohol, it was no secret to me that I had a drinking problem. 

Rich Bennett 6:14
Right. 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 6:14
So I sought treatment and a lot of the places that first come to mind Alcoholics Anonymous therapy, the emergency room. And while those were each helpful in their own way, they didn't really help me drink less. What? 

Rich Bennett 6:30
Right. 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 6:30
Much more of a turning point for me was connecting with a primary care physician who supported my goal of moderation and suggested prescription medication as a tool to put in the tool kit to achieve that goal. Those couple of. 

Rich Bennett 6:45
Holism. 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 6:47
Yeah. So believe it or not, there are three safe, effective, FDA approved medications for the treatment of alcohol problems. Unfortunately, only less than 2% of people with a ID ever get prescribed anything to help them drink less. So, you know, I kind of had. 

Rich Bennett 7:08
Now. 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 7:09
This dual experience of feeling so grateful for the role that medication played in my getting control back over alcohol, but also a lot of questions. Why? I only heard about this on my fifth or sixth or seventh encounter with the health care system. Why? Despite working in health care and I never heard of these medications. And those questions were really the seeds of what we do now at our health. 

Rich Bennett 7:36
I'll just say, because I mean, you look at medications and they always say, don't drink with you while you're taking medication. And I know of I think I only know of one. And I don't even think it's they prescribe it to you because I have a gentleman on not too long ago about a pill that, you know, for drinking in moderation. But I guess, I don't know. I guess you don't drink as much dissuades you from drinking too much. 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 8:08
Yeah, there there are three FDA approved medications and then other either approved medications that are used off label and then some things that fall into kind of the over-the-counter or supplemental bucket that may or may not have been reviewed by the FDA. The recommended frontline medication actually does work. Kind of how you were describing. It's called naltrexone and. 

Rich Bennett 8:31
Okay. 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 8:31
Who pulls off the pleasure and reward pathway is that alcohol activates. 

Rich Bennett 8:37
Yes. 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 8:37
And so it was a really great fit for someone like me where it tasted good. I wanted the second to taste great. I wanted a lot more. It kind of cools off so that when you are drinking, if you are, you can stop after fewer over time, experienced fewer cravings and thoughts of drinking for days drinking. And that's one of the positive attributes of the medication, is it's therefore appropriate both for patients like me whose goal is moderation and for those who are pursuing sobriety. 

Rich Bennett 9:13
Well, I guess to you, you it lowers the chances of withdraw, I would think. 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 9:20
Yet Naltrexone does not treat withdrawal directly. 

Rich Bennett 9:24
Okay. 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 9:25
For someone like me who was a binge drinker and so would drink over several days, build up physical dependency, experience withdrawal, as I was sobering up from that. Naltrexone helped me, you know, not ever drink to a level that I was going to be in withdrawal when I. 

Rich Bennett 9:46
Right. 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 9:47
There are other medications that can treat withdrawal directly. And so for someone who does have a physical dependency on alcohol, those can be absolutely critical in the first few days. 

Rich Bennett 10:00
Right. Okay. So with war or health, how do you actually leverage the digital technology to provide more accessible and effective treatment for alcohol use disorder? And actually, what sets it apart from traditional treatment methods? 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 10:19
Yeah, it's or is a private, convenient place to get access to a daily pill to drink less. So when folks come to the website or health.com, they can learn about alcohol use disorder and medication assisted treatment. New topics to many, just as they were at some point to us. And then, if it seems like something that might be helpful with what they're going through, they can connect over the internet with a doctor or nurse practitioner or other health care professional who's licensed in their state, get a treatment plan, get a diagnosis, if appropriate, get a prescription for something like Naltrexone and then get it delivered to their front door within two or three days. And they can do all of that without leaving their home, without any awkward waiting rooms, without any line at the pharmacy. And so we really use telehealth and all the progress that we've made in the last five years in terms of the adoption of telehealth to make this front line treatment option more accessible. 

Rich Bennett 11:26
So is this something that you guys started, I guess, during COVID? 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 11:30
We ultimately did. Yeah. I'm 

Rich Bennett 11:31
Like, 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 11:31
kind of thinking about it. You know, I started on Naltrexone in adult of 2017 or something like that. So before the pandemic, and we were kind of working on it, interviewing people, understanding if it would work. But we did launch it right at the end of 2020 

Rich Bennett 11:49
okay. 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 11:49
and that was a terrible time in a lot of ways. But in terms of a time for a solution like our health, it was actually ended up being good timing even though we didn't plan it that way. 

Rich Bennett 12:03
Right. 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 12:03
There were, of course, more people who were drinking more during the pandemic and looking for a solution. And then as a country and a society, we did about 30 years of telehealth adoption in about three years. And so. 

Rich Bennett 12:18
Yeah. 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 12:19
More familiar and comfortable with this idea of seeing a doctor over the Internet. 

Rich Bennett 12:25
Okay, so your health is strictly a website. It's not a brick and mortar. 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 12:30
That's right. It. 

Rich Bennett 12:31
Okay. 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 12:32
Totally digital online so folks can consult with their clinician online access tools to form their own plan to drink less or quit. And then we do offer a both a message based support group and a once a week support group meeting again online. 

Rich Bennett 12:51
I was okay. I'm glad you mentioned that, because that's one of the things I wanted to know about if you had if basically if you're just a portal to direct people to other Web sites or do you actually provide support and you do, which is great because you need those support groups and all that is through, Actually tell everybody the website now while we're talking about it. 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 13:14
It's or health. O. A. R. Health dot com. 

Rich Bennett 13:20
So easy to remember, actually. How did you come up with that name? Because the first thing I. 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 13:25
We went through a lot. 

Rich Bennett 13:26
You know, row in a boat or something. 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 13:29
That's that's exactly right. You know, we want to be a tool that helps people navigate to their own recoveries, no matter how choppy the water is. So or as a little bit of a metaphor for that. 

Rich Bennett 13:43
I love that. The red. 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 13:45
Trust me, we tried a lot, but ultimately we're happy. We're happy with. And some folks confuse us with the band. No affiliation. What we do know, we now know. You know their PR department and we they forward us their there emails if need be. 

Rich Bennett 14:03
So with 

this is just as blow me away now because I had no idea that it was just, you know, I mean, it's not just a portal. It's a place where you had the support groups and everything, 

the resources, because I know there are a ton ton of resources you have on the website. Can you explain some of that? Because to me, this is the digital part, right? Which is everything. So but explain some of the resources and the tools that you have on there to help people. 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 14:43
Yeah, we're big believers that everybody's struggling with alcohol or any other addiction for 

Rich Bennett 14:49
Mm hmm. 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 14:49
that matter, has the right and the responsibility to kind of build the recovery toolkit that's going to work for them. Medication can be a very helpful component of that. Obviously, it's an underused component, but for many it's not the only component of the recovery toolkit. So while we're very enthusiastic about referring to people to other resources, either in their communities or online, things like smart recovery meetings, AA Moderation Management. We've also tried to build out some digital tools and resources that help people in to Broadway's what I'd call the kind of direct ways tracking drinks and tracking medication adherence, actually taking the medication as prescribed. The other is more indirect. What we've seen in a lot of members experiences is that is they drink less or not at all that creates room for so much more of everything in life that's important. And so we have some additional tools that help folks brainstorm and then act on ways that they can activate natural healthy reward pathways. Taking a hike with a friend, playing a sport, doing anything really, that 

doesn't revolve around alcohol. There can be more of and it's interesting, you know, some folks gravitate more towards the draft and that's a great way to solve the problem. Other folks find that thinking about how much they're drinking, 24 seven can be a little overwhelming. And something like getting back into a hobby that has fallen on the back burner in favor of drinking can also be a pathway to the same destiny. 

Rich Bennett 16:32
So with this, because you have doctors listed on the website 

now, you yourself, you're not a doctor. Correct? 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 16:41
Correct. And so nothing, nothing I say in this conversation should be construed as medical. 

Rich Bennett 16:46
But. But are you or do you even have any that you're involved with, any peer recovery specialist? 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 16:57
You know, we haven't directly built that out. You know, we do host a weekly Smart Recovery meeting that is facilitated by a gentleman who is in recovery himself and then has subsequently gone on and become a licensed therapist and so is able to speak from life, from a lived experience as well as his training. But we don't have an all out pure coaching or recovery program. There's certainly peer to peer sharing of experiences and 

Rich Bennett 17:33
Right. 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 17:33
support that goes on in our groups. 

Rich Bennett 17:35
Well, I was going to say, and even in the groups, that's you know, that's so with the groups, how does somebody go about joining one of the groups? Is it just one group once a week or are there. 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 17:47
One. There's just one group once a week that we host a lot. 

Rich Bennett 17:51
Okay. 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 17:52
And there's kind of a 24 seven private message based. So those are available to all members. And I think one of the things that folks, you know, get out of that beyond you know, that is a little unique to our is most of the people in those groups, not all, but most of the people in those groups are taking medication that a provider has prescribed to them on the war platform. And given how underutilized these medications are, as well as the reality that not every traditional treatment approach has been supportive of medication, one of the things that people in kind of an awe affiliated group get out of it is just connecting with other people who are taking the same medication that they are and kind of realizing they're not alone, you know, if they have side effects, somebody else's. 

Rich Bennett 18:46
Right. 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 18:47
Had them as well. If the progress 

Rich Bennett 18:49
I. 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 18:49
isn't as fast as they would like, you know, there are stories of folks who stuck with it and are glad that they did. 

Rich Bennett 18:56
I never thought about that side effects. 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 18:59
Yeah. All all prescription medications have the risk of side effects when it comes to naltrexone. They are 

rare and mild, but can still be uncomfortable. So. 

Rich Bennett 19:13
Yeah. 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 19:13
Things like nausea, tummy troubles. They typically dissipate, you know, in the first 1 to 2 weeks. But they can be a real hurdle, too, to getting started with medication assisted treat. 

Rich Bennett 19:28
Hell, Jonathan, you think about it. Even stuff like baby aspirin has side effects. Is there anything out there that doesn't have a side effect? 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 19:37
Not that I know of. Any time you're putting a new chemical compound in your body. 

Rich Bennett 19:41
Right. 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 19:42
You hope it has the intended effects. And you know, there's always the possibility of some unintended effects. Remember, alcohol has some some pretty negative side effects to. 

Rich Bennett 19:54
That. Yeah. Yeah, that is, that is very, very, very true. So I think I'd rather take the chance on the medication. 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 20:03
It's worth it. It's worth a shot. 

Rich Bennett 20:04
Yeah. If it doesn't work, you can quit it. 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 20:07
That's that's absolutely right. And that's actually an attribute of this specific medication to is, you know, you can stop taking it immediately and not direct physical effects. You know, it's not going to be helping once you stop taking it, But it's not the sort of medication that you build up a dependence on and need to taper off of, which is true of others. 

Rich Bennett 20:28
Ed, correct me if I'm wrong because we keep talking about alcohol, but you guys don't just tell people that have an alcohol problem, right? 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 20:36
We are alcohol focused at. 

Rich Bennett 20:39
Alcohol. Okay. Okay. Okay. I was. I wanted to make sure, but I didn't know. Yeah. So with the. This is the part that I really love. And I'm sure you have plenty 

with the people that have used or health. And I'm sure you hear a lot of good, positive things. Can you share a story of somebody that has gone through whose life to the two things here, whose life you have changed but has also changed your life? 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 21:18
It's a great question. I hear the first half often, but but not so much the second. We have been lucky enough to help more than 25,000 people take the first step towards towards drinking less or quitting. One story that stands out to me I'm just going to call him Kay was a relatively young man, younger, younger than me. And looking at you rich, younger than you to. 

He described the way that alcohol had become kind of a constant companion. Is life there in the good moments and in the bad moments such that it was leading him to compromise in almost every area of his life, his romantic relationships, work, school. So on. And in a dark moment, he kind of turned to Google like a lot of us do when we don't when we're searching about for answers. 

Rich Bennett 22:15
Right. 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 22:15
I'm across poor health and described this ability to get started. Addressing his problem from his living room as a bit of kind of a ray of light in a really dark time in his life. And so he connected with a clinician, felt like he was heard empathetically. Got started with medication and wasn't quite sure how it was going the first few weeks, but stuck with it. 

And then what started as very small changes, taking a night off from drinking started to build upon each other. And he was at this family reunion where there was a lot of drinking, and he just knew it would have been a real high risk environment in the path. 

Rich Bennett 23:00
Right. 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 23:01
But he looked around an hour or two into it and he wasn't really drinking at all. And the world continued to spin. And he was enjoying being present with his family members. And that milestone, although there were, of course, ups and downs beyond it, 

Rich Bennett 23:20
Right. 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 23:21
became the beginning of what he calls kind of his liberation from alcohol. So obviously it changed his life. I think he changed me a bit in giving me a deeper appreciation for how small, even uncertain steps can build a momentum of their own and accumulate into something quite transformational. And then he's kind of gone on to be kind of one of the most eloquent and 

empathetic sources of peer support to others who are somewhere along a similar journey. 

Rich Bennett 24:01
That's awesome. God, that's just. I'd love to hear about that stuff. And 

the good thing is that we mentioned this before we started recording. People are coming out and talking about it, and when you hear of somebody that's gone through it and they're talking about it, I think that helps other people as well. You know, because a lot of people say, well, have dirt on their story and it's helped them then. Yeah, I can do the same. You know, without a doubt. 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 24:37
Couldn't agree more. 

Rich Bennett 24:39
You're 

on your website. Who is it that writes the articles? 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 24:47
We've been lucky enough to work with a variety of writers, a lot of folks who. 

Rich Bennett 24:54
Okay. 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 24:55
For us and for other platforms as part of kind of, I think, that broader project you're describing of more people being open, honest and kind of comfortable telling their stories so that others can kind of latch on to pieces of it. 

Rich Bennett 25:12
Because you have great articles on there. And for those of you listening, just to give you an idea of some of the articles on there, six Strategies to Take Control when Drinking is the main event. This one I love. The cost of drinking versus the cost or the cost of treatment versus the cost of drinking 

that people. You got to read that one. I mean, just there's a lot of great stuff on your website, too, where, you know, anybody can go there if they're having problems, you know, with alcohol and find help and find resources. You don't need to Google it. Just go to or health.com. It's. 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 25:59
That sounds right to me. I appreciate your saying that. Rich. Although, you know, the main thing we do is provide access to medication that's not the end all and be all solution for for everybody. What 

Rich Bennett 26:12
Right. 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 26:12
we hope is that we're part of a broader project that I think you are as well, of increasing the number of options that are easily accessible. 30 million people in this country with alcohol use disorder. If we insist on only one route to recovery, we're never going to reach them all. So we hope that things like the the articles and other resources on our site can help people brought out in their horizons a little bit. You know, sometimes we've kind of received one very specific vision of what recovery looks like, but that is there are a lot of options out there to help people navigate their own pathway, likely more varied and more numerous than they expect. So we hope we can help folks open their eyes to that. 

Rich Bennett 27:06
You keep talking about the medication you mentioned earlier. I think you said people can get it from you and you ship it to their door. Correct. But can they use their own pharmacy as well? 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 27:17
Yes. So yeah, if, if members would prefer to pick it up at their own pharmacy. Yeah, that's definitely an option. 

Rich Bennett 27:25
Although I think I'd rather have it shipped to my door, to be honest with you. 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 27:28
A lot of folks do opt for that kind of the combination of convenience, privacy, You know, it comes in a white bubble mailer on the outside that could have. 

Rich Bennett 27:39
Yeah. 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 27:39
In it. And then just knowing that if it's helping, they'll get a refill when it's time. You know, like most medications, this works best when you take it. 

Rich Bennett 27:52
Now. And I don't know if you can answer this or not, but with the medication called again. 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 27:58
Naltrexone, which is a bit of a tongue twister. 

Rich Bennett 28:00
Yeah. 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 28:01
It's hard to know where to which syllable to put this. 

Rich Bennett 28:05
What does something like that run? Any idea? 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 28:08
Yeah. It's so if you get it, you know, through us, kind of our plans start at as low as $39 a month, inclusive of the medication, shipping, follow up visits, access to the peer support. So it usually pays for itself in terms of just less drinking, let alone the benefit. Harder to quantify if folks, you know, go to their local pharmacy pricing can vary more. So it may be cheaper, it may be more expensive. That's going to depend on the pharmacy in question and the. Insurance plans. 

Rich Bennett 28:45
And a lot of black prescription plans will cover. 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 28:49
Yeah it's it's included in most. 

Rich Bennett 28:52
I. 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 28:53
As 

often as a tier one or tier two drug. It's you know, Naltrexone is has been available generically for decades. And that's the bad news about that is that's one of the reasons so few people have heard about it. There's no pharma company buying Super Bowl commercials to tell people about it. But the good part is once people do know about it and connect with a prescriber who's familiar with it, the ongoing costs of the medication can be quite affordable. 

Rich Bennett 29:28
You say you've helped out over 25,000 people. 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 29:32
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 29:33
Wow. 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 29:34
It's you know, it's definitely been one of the encouraging aspects of this is learning is you have no idea when you start something like this, if you're going to serve one person. One encouraging aspects is that. There are clearly people out there who are looking for a private, convenient way to get started. They may have tried other options and found them not to be a great fit. This may be the first time they're pursuing treatment for their their drinking problem and are eager to kind of take us up on the offer to connect with a health care professional online. So, you know, it's a lot of people, but it's also a tiny fraction of those that you know. 

Rich Bennett 30:22
Yeah. So, yeah. With the stigma that goes around, you know, addiction and everything that we mentioned earlier that, you know, we're talking about it. Other people are talking about it, which is a good thing. Have you thought about, especially since you know everything that you've been through yourself, have you thought about writing a book? 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 30:47
I don't know if I have the attention span would be the honest answer. 

Rich Bennett 30:52
You can cheat using I. 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 30:55
Yeah. Yeah. That's a that's a that's an option. It's much more fun, you know, talking with someone like locking myself away in a room for a year. 

Rich Bennett 31:06
Well, that actually brings me to my next question then. Because. Yeah, and you're right. A lot of people just don't they don't even know where to start when it comes to writing a book. I mean, I started on mine and I was stuck. It was like, Oh, shit, what do I do now? Oh, boy. But you're doing something now, have you? You're going on other podcast You have. I mean, if it over 25,000 people, you have a lot of people that can share their stories. Have you actually thought about starting a podcast for. 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 31:37
I have thought about that. It's a you know, it's a medium that I love. It's probably a tomb just in my own ears. More media via podcast than television or streaming or anything else. So I have thought about it. And, you know, you're right. I think. Although you know what? I hadn't what I think is a great idea and what you said is, you know, the potential to kind of share memories, stories. 

I'm one person or I hope that there are aspects of my story that folks can identify with and that that makes it easier to take that leap to get started on a change project. But there's a real diversity of experiences in our members, and I think the more that we can kind of show people recovery doesn't look one way necessarily the easier that gets for others. We do have what we call our ambassador program where members who wish to can share their stories in a way that we publish on the website, for example, in that resources section. But podcast might be a next, next logical option. 

Rich Bennett 32:51
In all honesty, I think you really should, because. And that was he listening. This was recorded on April 10th. Edison Research just brought out numbers now for the ages of people between 18 and 34 

is now tied with. So those listening to podcasts tied with those that watch TV. 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 33:16
Wow. 

Rich Bennett 33:17
For between the ages of 18 and 34 or so. And that's that age group you really want to hit, maybe even younger than that, you know, but definitely older to I think, you know, honestly, I think you should really consider that if you have if you need help, just call me. I'd be. Serious, man. I'd be more than willing to help you. 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 33:39
Good on you then? Yeah, that's definitely a plus 

Rich Bennett 33:42
I'm. 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 33:42
in the plus column. 

Rich Bennett 33:44
Just because the way podcasts are growing and getting the word out there and when people hear the stories, 

it's just going to. Even if it helps one person. 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 33:56
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 33:57
Then that, you know, then you you did your job and you already have a sponsor. 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 34:03
Yes, right. 

Rich Bennett 34:04
Health. So, yeah, I mean, it's yeah, I think you should really, really consider that you could you just sort of you, you know, you don't have to do video that's something. Yeah. But you know as 

actually before I get to my last question, is it because I know, like I said before, there's probably a lot we could talk about, but is there anything you would like to add? 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 34:28
One thing is that, you know, among the other resources on our website is anyone who's interested in this topic personally for a friend or loved one, or just generally is welcome to book 15 minutes to chat with me just as we've been chatting. Again, not medical advice, but more person to person. And so that's accessible via the website or health.com. So we encourage folks to take advantage of that if it's of interest. 

Rich Bennett 34:55
I think he's right by your name. Right? It's a schedule call. 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 34:58
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Our story. Schedule a call. 

Rich Bennett 35:02
All right. So and I don't know if you can answer this, but actually, do you know how many packages you've been on? 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 35:09
A big handful. Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 35:10
Bimbo. What? What about as far as interviews, whether it be newspapers, radio or TV? Have you done that to. 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 35:19
Just a very little bit. 

Rich Bennett 35:21
Very little, but okay. 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 35:22
Kind of health focused, behavioral health care focused. 

Rich Bennett 35:27
Okay. So with all the people that have talked to you and interviewed you, is there anything a hostess never asked you that you wish they would have asked you? And if so, what would be that question? What would be your answer? 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 35:43
Oh, man. Well, you know, no one's ever, ever asked me. 

What do I like the least about our product and offering? 

Rich Bennett 35:58
Oh. 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 35:59
I'm not sure if I want people to ask me that, but now that I've brought it up, I feel like I have to answer it. 

Rich Bennett 36:07
You know, that's a great question, though, because you're right. Nobody ever not that I know of. Ask anybody that. That's a great question. 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 36:17
Yeah, well. 

Rich Bennett 36:18
There you have it. 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 36:21
I'm 

thinking about this a little bit in real time. I think what I would say is, on the one hand, I'm really proud that we've increased access to this safe, effective option. On the other hand, in an ideal world, people don't need to come to or health to get access to this medication. Any prescriber licensed in the U.S. can write a prescription for naltrexone. They may not be aware or comfortable or confident doing so, but they can. And so what I think what I like least is that we kind of have to exist in this little bit of a silo. As much as some people value privacy and convenience. And I think a much better world down the road will be one where Orr is much more plugged into the broader system of care. You know, remember, I worked health insurance for ten years. Like, we want everything to be stitched together. And right now, apart as as opposed to stitched together, I think the benefits of getting people started with treatment outweigh that fragmentation. But it's something I'd like to see us correct in the. 

Rich Bennett 37:44
Right. Well, if you think about it, there are a lot of. Doctors that it's just their mindset. They don't want to prescribe that they would rather see you quit completely. You got doctors that, you know, like primary doctors won't even recommend a chiropractor. They want you to get surgery, you know, and so forth. So, yeah, people are going to need more health no matter what. All the time. All the time. So, yes, you're going to be around for a long. 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 38:18
Yeah. Maybe there's a day when it'll be a good day when we're not needed. But in the meantime, yeah, we're. We're proud to be here for those we can help. 

Rich Bennett 38:28
Jonathan, I don't think we'll ever see a perfect world where that's the case, though. 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 38:32
Totally. I mean, that was part of my motivation for like moving from health care to starting or was like, you know, everything you do at a Fortune 500 health care company is you pull this little lever and you hope that ten years down the road changed people's payment incentives. And there's meaningful change at the end of it. Like, yeah, in an ideal world, every doctor would feel comfortable using their prescription pad to help people drink less or quit in primary care in the emergency. And so on. But if the choice is, you know, waiting for two more generations of doctors to get trained and our entire health care system to change its payment structures and incentives or doing something about it in a more immediate and direct way, obviously I've opted for the latter. 

Rich Bennett 39:16
Oh, you know what? Actually, I do have one more question for you with it. And we mispronounce it again a and a toxin. 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 39:23
Close naltrexone. 

Rich Bennett 39:25
Okay. How often does somebody take that? 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 39:30
It's there are two ways people take it. So typically it's prescribed for daily use. So every day. Daily pill, you know, take it while you brush your teeth. Take it with me. 

Rich Bennett 39:42
A vitamin. 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 39:43
Yeah, exactly. Take it as your leave and work whatever best fits you. There are others who take it in a more targeted fashion. So either only when they're going to drink, sometimes that's called the Sinclair method, 

Rich Bennett 40:00
That's 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 40:00
or some people combine the two approaches and, you know, take it daily and then hopefully in consultation with their health care professional, maybe take an extra dose before a a high risk event. And it seems like both approaches work. You know, more of the foundational research was done with daily use. So that's typically what a prescription is going to say, what the packaging on the 

Rich Bennett 40:22
right. 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 40:22
bottom is to say. But there are ways in which people can adapt the use of the medication to their lives. 

Rich Bennett 40:30
Jimmy Daley used to make more sense because you got to let it get into your system. 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 40:35
Yeah, it does wash out pretty quickly. So like, that's part of the logic of daily use is you're going to kind of have round the clock protection. 

Rich Bennett 40:44
Okay. Now, now, see, I'm coming up. More questions as far as taking it. And I don't know if you can answer this or not, but because, you know, when you when you drink a lot of alcohol, it tends to lower your immune system. A lot of people will get that call. They'll get sick because, you know, we're all brave running around, no shirts on when it's 20 degrees outside. 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 41:06
Totally. 

Rich Bennett 41:08
But with God, we're going to miss. 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 41:13
We're going to get it. 

Rich Bennett 41:16
With the prescription. Do you know if it affects your immune system at all? 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 41:21
Not that I know of. You know, not directly that I know of. I think what you're saying is correct is that if it does its job in helping people drink less, they're going to start to notice all sorts of health and wellbeing 

Rich Bennett 41:38
Right. 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 41:38
that it's both from less alcohol and better decisions and more time for healthy habits like exercise or social connection. So I think it's. 

Rich Bennett 41:50
Yeah. 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 41:51
Be more of an indirect effect still meaningful that. 

Rich Bennett 41:54
Right. Okay, good. Well, Jonathan, I want to thank you so much. You got to come on again, because we got actually what I would like to do and I know we've done it in person, but perhaps, maybe a virtual roundtable about this. 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 42:11
That would be. 

Rich Bennett 42:12
Wendy Owen and get some other people and might even be able to get some people that are in 

have either taken this or in recovery. 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 42:22
Yeah, that would be awesome. 

Rich Bennett 42:24
Okay, I'll make it happen. 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 42:27
I look forward to it. It was so great talking with you, Reg. 

Rich Bennett 42:30
All bears are blessed. I've learned a lot again, which is why I do this. And you said, when you're ready to start that podcast, let me know. 

Jonathan Hunt Glassman 42:38
Will do. One way or another, we'll be talking again soon.