EP229- Frances Tophill Chats Buds & Blossoms Festival, Her New Book And Much More From!!

Frances Tophill, celebrated for her appearances on BBC Gardener's World, joins us to share her remarkable journey in gardening and writing.  She dives into her latest book, "A Year in a Small Garden," offering a peek into the transformation of her garden over a year. Frances also teases her upcoming headline talk at the Buds and Blossoms Festival, where she will discuss the practical and sustainable gardening.

We explore the nuances of observing and planning a garden, emphasizing the importance of understanding soil types, light intensity, and seasonal changes. Personal stories bring to life the patience and trial-and-error required to strike a balance between ornamental beauty and practical functionality. Learn about setting up greenhouses and integrating plants with practical uses, drawing from both Frances's and my own gardening experiences.

We discuss integrating flowers and vegetables, the benefits of permaculture, and fostering community through allotments. The episode also touches on the evolution of sustainable horticultural practices, reflecting on the challenges and excitement of creating eco-friendly show gardens for events like the Chelsea Flower Show.

Its a great chat and one which will leave you looking forward to Frances's in person talk this Sunday 9th June 2024 at Buds & Blossoms you can find out more and buy tickets here.

https://laoisgardenfestival.com 

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:12

how's it going, everybody, and welcome to episode 229 of master my garden podcast. Now, this week's episode, I'm delighted to be joined by frances tophill from bbc gardeners world. She's a gardener's world, she's a gardener. She just recently has launched her I believe fifth book and it's about a year, in a small garden. So it documents the journey from the start of her new garden over the course of a year and how that garden has developed and changed. And she's also the headline speaker at this weekend's Buds and Blossoms Festival. So I'm kicking off the talks with a talk on how to grow your own food the easy way, at one o'clock and then Frances is the headline speaker later on that day. So we're going to talk about Buds and Blossoms, we're going to talk about the new book Gardening, bbc Gardener's World and wherever the conversation goes. But it sure is going to be a very interesting, interesting conversation and, frances, you're very, very welcome to Master my Garden podcast.

Speaker 2: 1:06

Oh, thank you very much for having me.

Speaker 1: 1:08

So, yeah, there's lots going on. You're extremely busy as we set off here, and I suppose we'll start with the. I suppose the main thing that's happened for you at the moment is the launch of the new book, and I believe it's going really well. So maybe sort of lead us through the story of the book. It's your fifth book, I believe, if that's correct.

Speaker 2: 1:29

I think that is right. Yeah, I never expected that I'm really dyslexic, so I always wanted to write when I was a kid. I remember trying and like forget to finish sentences. I don't get any spells in my life, so it's quite amazing that I have got five books. I think it's a case of if you write about what you know and what you love, it's quite easy just for it to flow. When I was trying to write adventure stories when I was a kid, they were terrible, but gardening I can master them just about. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:59

And how does that process work, you know, with dyslexia? Is it a case that you dictate it and let it come out that way, or are you actually physically writing it yourself?

Speaker 2: 2:11

I do write it myself. I would love to be able to write with a pen, but that's not the world we live in, is it?

Speaker 1: 2:17

No, no, no.

Speaker 2: 2:18

I journaled for a little bit of this one, so there was a little bit of pen writing and I had to photograph the pages and send them in and they were. I think people in the office kind of right, are they trying to decipher my actual handwriting? Because it's when you're right, you tend to forget to finish a sentence or think you put in a word and it's not there and and so it's really hard to decipher my actual written uh words. Um, you know, when people have come to book signings for this book, I I can't speak to people when I'm writing their book and I always ask them how do you spell your name? And you know, it's just those things where you have to just learn, learn what your strengths are.

Speaker 2: 2:50

But, um, but no, I do physically write it with a laptop and I suspect there's quite a lot of editing for, kind of um copy editing to just correct or, you know, checking. You put this word, is that what you meant? That kind of thing. But um, I do find it's, I think it's, it's easier than I imagined. Uh, the actual writing process, um, what I can't do is edit my own work. Very well, I kind of write it and then it goes to a copy editor to make sure that the text will make sense, because I can't see the mistakes that I've written often. Yes, um, but no, I find it easy. In fact I, when I first wrote my first book, I spoke to I was working with alan titch marsh and he gave me some really good advice about how to do it. Where he said you know you've got your title, work out what your chapters are going to be. You know they give you what the word count needs to be and he said, allocate, according to each chapter, which ones you think are most important.

Speaker 2: 3:41

Allocate a number of words and then just treat each chapter as if it's an essay, like a 3 000 word essay about you know, whatever the heading of that chapter is, um, and then, and then the end of it. You'll get to the word count and it's. It's been every single book I've used that method to do it.

Speaker 1: 3:57

yeah, it makes sense, makes sense, but yeah, well, well done. Well done, because writing a book is no mean feat. But, um, to write five and to write it with dyslexia, I know, I know you're talking about a topic that you're very passionate about and very comfortable speaking about, but well done on that, thank you. So, yeah, the book Sorry.

Speaker 2: 4:17

That's fine, the book itself. So it's about my. It's about my garden. My garden, um, I had, like many people, spent most of my adult life, um, either moving back in with my mum or house sharing with people or friends and renting, and so I managed last year to finally, uh, get my first house. So this is all about that and how I got to that, but then also how my career as a gardener has informed my the way I approached my first garden.

Speaker 2: 4:46

I've had allotments and I have always approached them as if they are gardens which some people like and some people on the plots don't like so much.

Speaker 2: 4:53

When there's not as much one of them, there's always useful stuff, but it's maybe a lot of pollinator friendly stuff mixed in as well, which cannot always look like veg, um, but yes, I've gardened on allotments, I've rented places and done a bit of gardening in those places, but this is my first place where I can really put roots down and make long-term plans and and all those things.

Speaker 2: 5:14

It's how I've approached that and then actually a journal of what's happened through the year and how I tackled it and and without wanting to give too much away, there's not a huge amount of actual progress in that first year and that's really a lot of what it's about is observation and really getting it right so that when you, when you do actually spend the money and put in the time to do the building, you know you're putting things in the right places and you know that the plants are going to be happy and those sorts of things. So it's a lot of observational stuff and visiting other people from inspiration, from the kinds of gardens that I've, that I've drawn inspiration from throughout my career really.

Speaker 1: 5:49

Yeah, observation is a huge key, because I guess people move into a house and it has a garden. You know it's either a new build and you're starting fresh and you don't know what you're dealing with underground, or you're moving into one that has a garden and you're looking to put your own slant on it, but again, you don't know the you're not, you haven't observed and you don't know what exactly is going to do well, what won't do. Well, you know, and so on, and you don't know the wet spots, the dry spots and all that kind of thing. And that is key, isn't it?

Speaker 2: 6:21

it is, and it's actually been two years of observations welcome, the book is one year and I thought I'd observed it really well and there are things I remembered, like I had this journal. When the sun hits, so in the winter, there's a big south wall which blocks the low sun, so I get morning, very early morning sun, and then that that's it for me. Um, it's not for the whole winter and it's when the plants are dormant, so actually it doesn't seem to make that big of an impact on how they grow. Um, but for a few months of the year I don't get direct sunlight hitting the garden and I thought I'd observed that really well. I remember writing oh, the sun hit the first corner of the garden.

Speaker 2: 6:55

I think it was March time, early March, um, and so I just thought, okay, well, it hits the garden for the first time in March. Probably by the end of April, maybe May, it will be quite sunny. But actually the second year I came back to re-observe and thought, well, it does hit the garden at the beginning of March and by the end of March the whole garden is in full sun, so that once the sun moves, it moves really quickly, and you know those sorts of secondary observations as well and you think you've got it and then actually the details come out in the second year as well. So I obviously had started building in the second year.

Speaker 1: 7:28

But it's just interesting to notice what you hadn't noticed, even if you think you're observing really carefully yeah, and this is this, is you with it, with your gardening hat on, with your gardening experience and knowledge, and so what? What should people be looking out for as they're observing?

Speaker 2: 7:46

Definitely sort of soil type and those sorts of things. First off, what have you got? I'm in a very wet part of the country but my soil is quite free draining, so moisture could have been an issue. It turns out it's not a huge issue, but that is something that you'll have to. Whatever your garden conditions are, you can't really change them. So you might be in a very free draining, arid, hot place or you might be in a very damp, very shady, boggy sort of environment and you can't essentially change those things. So you're going to have to be immediately thinking about any construction work that you do, having to cope with that or combat that in a way.

Speaker 2: 8:27

You know, if you, I'm quite against using concrete. I don't use concrete, certainly in my own domestic size garden, um, but if I was in a very boggy place you'd probably have to, because things are going to sink and move if you try. And you know, lay a paving area on just some gravel, um. So, yeah, it's, it's observations like that soil type, but also light. Where is it hitting? When is it hitting? Uh, what kind of intensity of light? You know, evening sunlight is hotter and usually a bit more intense than morning light, which is a bit cooler.

Speaker 2: 9:00

Um, where are the dry spots? That's really important. Where's the prevailing wind coming in? Where's the the rain shadows against walls? You might find that there are places, even in a wet garden, that very, very rarely get any water. But also, what plants are there? Because it might be that you move into what looks like a blank canvas and then things start to grow. I completely forgot again second year round, I completely forgot that there were a load of daffodils in one corner of my garden until they came up. Um, so, observing those things and how they come cyclically every year, and then you can begin. So this year now I've definitely clocked those daffodils in the autumn, I'll be moving them around and spreading them from just that one corner so that they're more, um, evenly spread across the garden, and then obviously adding a load more bulbs as well, which I haven't yet put any bulbs, since that's something I'm excited to do.

Speaker 1: 9:48

This yeah, imagine so you, you've observed over over two years and you said that this year has, you know, and and this is the, the start of journey within the book um has been about kind of setting up and things. So what have you done within that year? It's not fully planted, it's not fully designed, but I guess you're putting ideas, structures, maybe in place. So what's what has been happening?

Speaker 2: 10:11

yeah, so there were. There were a lot of things I had in my head that I wanted to, things I wanted, things I needed. Uh, I have a huge collection of things you can use. You know you're into growing veg as well and I love, and you know I'm I'm a gardener who loves flowers, but I only love plants if they have other uses besides being just beautiful. Um, and that can be for pollinators, but it it often.

Speaker 2: 10:38

The thing that really gets me excited is whether it's got some use for people, and you know it could be wildflowers, it could be vegetables, it could be dye plants or fabric um making manufacturing or medicinal plants or cosmetic uses or you know anything. Um. So I've built up a rather huge collection in my time of things I've carted from place to place or left at my mum's house for long periods of time, um, and a lot of them are tenders. So every year I'd cobble together some sort of bubble wrap and old windows or doors, construction to try to protect my tender edibles. So things like I've got turmeric and cardamom and um, lemongrass and Vietnamese coriander and, yeah, all sorts of edible tender plants. Um.

Speaker 2: 11:27

So one thing I knew I needed was a greenhouse. That was the first thing I was thinking about, and when I first bought the house, I imagined that that greenhouse would be against that big wall, because it's such a big feature, that wall. But then, as soon as I moved in and I realized that that wall got no, next to no light, I knew that that couldn't be the place for it, so I had to completely rethink that. Um, so working that out was the first thing and I actually I actually slightly rushed into it. So it's another lesson for just observing and not doing things too fast. I got it in ever so slightly the wrong place. It's fine, it works beautifully and I now see it like a bit of a conservatory, but the the position of it and the size of it is slightly it's slightly bigger than I had in my head, and so what I've created is a tiny little uh side section.

Speaker 2: 12:11

I didn't want to butt right up to my neighbor's boundary because it didn't seem very fair to do that to them so I've got like a meter and a bit down the side of the greenhouse in the sunniest place in the garden, which is fairly useless. I'm thinking I might hang the hammock off that off the greenhouse and have that as a little sunny hammock lane. Yeah, so I made a mistake because I knew I had to do it. I maybe slightly rushed it and and hence making that mistake, but it's, um, that was something I needed, uh, so that had to happen last year. And then I obviously started buying plants because I love plants and I go to lots of flower shows as part of my job and I started getting more things and mulling over what I wanted and basically what I wanted.

Speaker 2: 12:53

For the first time I was, I had license to put something that was ornamental without being practical, because on the allotments I've always had to have the majority of things be practical and I do love that. That's my passion. But I had a bit of a bit of leeway to actually do something a bit more aesthetic and a bit less practical. So I was thinking about how I could manage that, um with creating flower-filled, pollinator friendly but also functional in some way planting. So my natural inclination with that would be to go for herbs? Um, because I love herbs, it's my, they're my favorite kind of group of plants, but in that wet uh position herbs would struggle. So I knew I couldn't use the Mediterranean herbs that I usually fall back on. So I've had to sort of be inventive and think of different, different plants, some of our native herbs, things like wood betony and um um lovage and Scottish lovage and different things that have a function but maybe are a bit less commonly known and because they're weirdly, even though they're our natives we've forgotten how how to use them.

Speaker 2: 14:03

Um, yeah, so it's. It's about. It was about that, was about what that's going to be like. And then at the end of the book and the end of the year, all that I really had come up with apart from the greenhouse and a few beds which could be shifted, was, um was two plans I've. At the end of the book it sort of ends with two drawings I've done of the potential direction that the garden could go in at this point and then over that last winter I started actually building that construction. So the book ends with a kind of like, that's kind of what I wanted. The book ends with opportunities and possibilities, because there is never a finished point to a garden and it's quite nice to end with the same At any point. You can do this, you can do that take it in completely different directions.

Speaker 1: 14:51

That's the joy and it's a nice. It's a bit like a Netflix series.

Speaker 2: 14:53

It's a little cliffhanger that there may be another one. Well, I'm not sure I'd want to write a whole another book about my garden. It's quite a lot of pressure actually getting it done. But that we've definitely discussed about, you know, maybe on the next, on the next print, there being a revisit to see how it's progressed in the time in between yeah, two things, just want to take a step backwards on.

Speaker 1: 15:11

So you mentioned plants needing to have multi-function for you, so obviously they they're going to have to look good, but they might have a you know function in terms of dyeing clothes or medicinally or anything like that. So are you using most of these plants, or all of these plants, in multiple functions, or is it a case that you just like to use plants that you know have these multi-functions, or are you actually using them day to day?

Speaker 2: 15:37

a mixture? I think mostly not, but as we said at the beginning, I'm. My life, especially in the spring and summer, is fairly, fairly chaotic actually so.

Speaker 2: 15:45

I don't often have time. I mean, I remember being really frustrated last year uh, this is when I was working as a head gardener in a kitchen garden and, um, I was getting really frustrated because there's no time to process. I remember saying to my god I can't process everything because it's it's such a time commitment to to actually harvest everything and stew it or freeze it or, or, you know, prepare it for for storage or whatever it may be. So I I would love to think I use everything. Like, realistically, I don't use everything, I do use a fair amount, um, of the most simple things fruit I always harvest and use. I always stew everything and freeze it for the winter, um, because, you know, I mean I love it fresh but it's so fleeting and um, it's something I learned from my mum.

Speaker 2: 16:35

Actually she always does that and in the middle of winter you can get out a little.

Speaker 2: 16:39

I use, I reuse little hummus pots, for you know they're a good size portion oh, yeah, good idea yeah, and just freeze them in little little plastic pots like that and then, and then get them out in the middle of winter and you have your fresh black currants or raspberries or strawberries or plums or whatever it may be, because I always use them. Um some cosmetics I use, so calendula and lavender. I'll always dry and then infuse them in oils, which is pretty simple. It's just a case of I've got a herb dryer that I made maybe five, six years ago and I just pick things on a hot day when the dew has dried off them, dry them on that herb rack and then, once they're fully dried out out, I cover them in a carrier oil, like we can use anything but vegetable oil works perfectly fine, um, and then that again stores which then in the winter I can turn into things like lip balm and skin creams and things, um, and then just for culinary use.

Speaker 2: 17:39

So I grow veg in amongst everything I've got. The other day I was planting it. There's a mizuna and mustard in amongst all the flower beds so that I can pick those. And yeah, I do harvest a lot. I mean, vegetables are still a major part of my growing. I love growing.

Speaker 1: 17:56

And that kind of leads me on to the next thing that I wanted to step back on. You mentioned in your allotment which I don't step back on. You mentioned in your allotment which I don't know. Do you still have your allotment or is it you do. So you mentioned in your allotment that, um, I think the word you use was some of the other allotment holders were frowning, I guess, at your use of flour and veg together.

Speaker 2: 18:16

Um, more than more. In fact it's not a mile up than I've got now down in Devon is. It's really progressive and the guys who run it are the? Um. They're really into permaculture and and wildlife friendly planting so they really actively encourage that style of gardening which I love. That's my. I don't always sort of put my hand up as a permaculturist, but because I actually I don't. I I like different methods as well, but a lot of the principles in permaculture I think are brilliant and I use them a lot. Um, but yeah, the allotment I had before when I was at my mum's was, um, much more traditional and it was more the the ratio of flowers to vegetables that people, a few people said was wrong.

Speaker 2: 19:03

I think on the contract I was only supposed to have a quarter of the plot, uh, for flowers oh, there's actually a contract yeah right, yeah and um, you know that there was I think that there probably wasn't any more than a quarter of the plot for my cut flower section, but because I was growing medicinal herbs as well, people sort of thought they look like flowers too. Um, and yeah, there were a few raised eyebrows, but then I pointed out that, in fact, you know, courgette produces a flower in order to then make its courgette, and so does a tomato and a chili, you know. So, actually, you can't. You can't categorize plants into flowering and non-flowering. You know, a lot of the produce that we grow is also flowering, it doesn't?

Speaker 2: 19:44

it's a sort of defunct system and the fact that I'm bringing pollinators and using a lot of things medicinally, you know, like in my cut flower patch I had echinaceas, but that's a medicinal herb and you know. So, yeah, I kind of managed to get around that one, but there was I think there was a hard core of people who still want allotments to be purely vegetable. And I get that because actually, if we turned, you know, if we, if we recreated a system where everyone has an access to a small plot of land where they can grow their own food, I think socially, you know, and politically, that would be a huge thing to give people a bit more autonomy about their diets and and more connection with the natural world. And so I really I'm a firm believer in allotments as a concept, um, but I also really like that there's a bit of flexibility and a bit more of a nuanced approach to them.

Speaker 1: 20:37

Yeah, we don't have the allotment, the allotment movement here, as much to be fair.

Speaker 1: 20:43

There is some, but they're not as you know, they're not as established as as you guys have.

Speaker 1: 20:47

Um, but the reason I wanted to step back onto that was, uh, obviously, buds and blossoms is this weekend and my talk, which is the first talk of the day, is about growing your own food, and I suppose I'm where I'm coming at it from. I went went to horticultural college in the in the 1990s, and won't be specific on the year, but it's a while ago, and I suppose a lot of what we were taught was from a book called the Principles of Horticulture and it's a great book. It's a great book but it's funny because a lot of it is is still so relevant. But then there's parts of it, you know, in terms of digging of the soil, rotivating, fertilizing, there's, there's some parts of it are so relevant and then there's some parts of it that are should be irrelevant at this stage and we need to kind of rethink and go back to the old ways prior to that book, you know, and using organic matter and so on, and incorporating beneficials into your, into your garden, and that's why I honed back in on that question so um.

Speaker 2: 21:53

Are you a digger or no digger?

Speaker 1: 21:55

no dig, um, but but that's only recent. So and I suppose the the reason being so. Like I've been to horticultural college, I've essentially worked in every area of horticulture over the years and when we built our house here, I had blocks left over, built a big raised bed, filled it with really good topsoil and, you know, started growing veg in it and first two, three years, so successful, no, no pest disease issues, really successful crops. But it just started to go downwards and I was trying to like I'm following the principles of horticulture here, what's going on? And it was really then that I started to think, you know, it's the soil there's, it's the soil life, feeding the soil life, and that kind of. I suppose I re-taught myself the things that I thought I knew weren't 100% accurate. Um, no bad intention on the people that were teaching it, it was just what was in at the day and I think it's kind of a rethinking of that. And now my primary focus is on is on soil and, yeah, using no dig as much as possible.

Speaker 2: 23:05

I think I've had the same journey of a really traditional apprenticeship and I was at the Botanic Gardens in Edinburgh, which was amazing. You know, the work they do there is absolutely astounding and the conservation stuff totally changed, flipped my whole view of horticulture. But the apprenticeship particularly was very traditional double digging and it was organic. So we didn't use um chemical sprays. But other than that it was this all ornamental. We had a kitchen garden that was to be seen and we would never pick any of the fruit because it was, it would ruin the look, you know, and it's very victorian. I mean it was, it was a lutyens garden. So I had that Victorian hangover and tradition and I wouldn't say I rejected all of it.

Speaker 2: 23:47

But over the years so many different things have shifted my perspective and now I realize, you know, rather than these grand Victorian spaces, community projects and community growing is is something that I find so much more rewarding than just creating something beautiful, something that I find so much more rewarding than just creating something beautiful and and also sacrificing everything else for the sake of the perfect plant. You know, the, the, the soil life, the insect life, it I have over the years shifted and almost you turned on a lot of that stuff I learned, and letting weeds grow is one of my big gripes with a lot of a lot of early um intake. Horticultural qualifications still teach these 10 weeds that you need to learn, and most of them um are wildflowers that are incredibly useful things like chickweed. You can eat it. It's medicinal. It's really good for soothing your skin.

Speaker 2: 24:35

It's delicious um shepherd's purse I mean shepherd's purse is the most inoffensive weed. You can pull it out in two seconds. You know why is this still being taught? And it also has medicinal uses. And why are these still being taught as things that are the enemy?

Speaker 2: 24:50

um you know. So I I think a lot of traditional horticultural teaching is going through that process, um, and it's it's interesting to sort of observe it and uh, you know I've had a lot of people comment on the amount of weeds and you know it's a hard sell to people who are trained in horticulture to say I want it this way. I like the weeds, you know. But we'll get there, I don't know how to do it without weeds. I don't want to put that on you. You might not want dandelions in your bench.

Speaker 1: 25:19

Well, I suppose my take now is that it's all in harmony and it's all about balance and it's, you know, as I said, that's the basis of my talk on Sunday and it is hugely important. But, as you mentioned, like, we had to identify the 10 weeds and then you had to understand the leaf type to then understand the weed killer that you would use to to get rid of them. And that was, that was the principle, not not necessarily in that book, but part of the modules that we were doing at that time, and there was less. It was a less holistic approach because I suppose it was seen as right we need to get this crop and everything else that's interfering with that crop. And that's how it was. It was perceived a weed was interfering, a slug, you know, greenfly. But now my, my approach will be a lot more. Everything has a place, everything has a little spot within that cycle and you're looking for balance. I guess that's that's kind of my, my thinking now.

Speaker 2: 26:26

So I mean also, I think there's a really nice, a nice sort of transition happening with everybody where again at this traditional allotment I had before my neighbor all my neighbors were sort of elderly retired men, um, really kind, really helpful. Whenever they saw me doing anything, they'd all come and help me, which was really sweet. But, um, there was one of them particularly. He would always buy in um lacewings and ladybird larvae and release them onto the plot and he'd always, when he'd finished releasing them on his, he'd put the empty tubes on mine. Um, for the last few that were stood in there in the hope that they'd come and help me with my pests as well.

Speaker 2: 27:05

So he was really into that sort of more holistic biological control method and really active, like chatting about that. But then every now and again he'd come over and say oh, you know all your horse tails growing, but what you need to put on there is J's fluid. They're really trying to embrace the new, but they can't quite get rid of the old as well yeah, it's a, it's, it's a, it's a, it's a shift, there's no doubt.

Speaker 1: 27:30

But it is happening without, without a doubt. Um, so that's kind of the book. What's bbc gardener's world obviously is kind of your, your main project, you know, week to week it's. It's kind of busy season now, so tell us a little bit about what a week in BBC Gardener's world looks like anything it's not as busy as you, as you would probably imagine.

Speaker 2: 27:54

I've. I have filmed um one VT. So the VT is what we call the little insert films that go into the program. So it's like oh, francis went to visitor. This one was a wisteria national collection of wisteria, when that was in season um, and I've only filmed one of them this year. Um, so far, um, but I've, I have hosted.

Speaker 2: 28:16

I filmed last week the host hosting taking in the filling in the shoes of Monty and Adam um, which I'm doing three times this year, not from my own garden, so last year did it from my own garden, which, um was a really interesting experience, but one that was more challenging than I realized, I think, having got my first ever garden suddenly within a month, having, um, a whole team of people producers coming in and not taking over they didn't take over, but kind of putting a pressure on it made it. It didn't quite feel like mine ever. It felt like I had to get it, you know, right for the tv, and then I kind of realized during the year that I was making it more for the tv than for myself. So I decided to have this year just to kind of put a boundary around it and have it for myself, especially as settling in to a new place. So so I'm just sort of tinkering away at my own garden without being observed this year, which is really nice, I have to say, um, so instead we're going to a friend's uh community project just down the road from me.

Speaker 2: 29:19

She, she, we, we used to work together in a market garden for adults with learning disabilities for about four or five years. Um, and uh, she's now set up her own growing project about five years ago, and over the years I've helped her with the odd thing. So it seemed a really nice place to come. And. But for years I have promised her, um, but I'd help her to make a herb garden, because she's got this lovely walled garden that she rents and, um, when you first come in, it's uh got a bit of an empty space and we were planning on having like no sort of plant sales area in a big herb garden and I've been promising it for years and I've never got it.

Speaker 2: 29:57

So this year the pressure is on and I'm and I'm doing that with her. So we filmed that last week. But generally speaking, gardeners World probably takes maybe a day a week in the summer, maybe sometimes two, if we have two films in the same location. It might be a day every other week. Um, usually there's a bit of a rush at the end of the summer when, um, they realize they haven't got as many, or the pressure's on to get lots and lots of films, and they come on the shelf for next year, so the beginning of next year, when it's very grey and muddy still yeah out.

Speaker 2: 30:29

They like to have lots of films filled with colour so that people can have a bit of cheer in the spring. So that's that's kind of that. But at the moment the thing that's really dominating my life is flower shows from May, from kind of garden as well, um, spring fair in beaulieu, uh to malvern, then obviously chelsea I've got garden as well. Live next week, um. So yeah, it's sort of you get on the conveyor belt of flower shows each week, ending usually in in tatton. But then there's more than this autumn as well, and then there's the autumn fair for garden as well. So it sort of that trickles on. In terms of time commitment that takes up the most yeah, and how was chelsea last week?

Speaker 1: 31:10

so it was. I've seen a lot on, so anything coming out of it, style wise, trend wise. Or is it continuing along the same trend of, you know, more naturalized styling over the last few years?

Speaker 2: 31:24

definitely more naturalized. I think I noticed a lot of trees um, which is nice. There was a lot of woodlandy uh areas um a lot of water, but I think that always is the case with chelsea, because these huge ponds and waterfalls are really dramatic to look at. Um, there wasn't any kind of, apart from the one where they'd rebuilt half of the church. That was pretty um impressive like structure, um, oh, and I suppose the water age garden, which had these sort of umbrella mimicking um pergola made out of steel, I think um, generally, chelsea has these monumental things. I didn't notice anything particularly like that was a lot more pared back and I I quite like that. Um, and yes, this this woodlandy, woodlandy thing, um, but I think it wasn't quite as rewilding and it wasn't quite as weed filled, but more kind of wildflower and cultivated species. So, yeah, I I thought it was really nice actually. Um, yeah, I always worry with with the wild, wild planting that it's a trend I kind of hope when it.

Speaker 2: 32:34

When it's at chelsea, it's easy to kind of go oh, the nature's trend this year, but actually it sort of feels like the more naturalistic or nature biodiverse planting should be not a trend but should be just a given really.

Speaker 1: 32:47

Yeah, we've just come off the back of Bloom here in Ireland, which is, you know, a horticultural and food show, and it has show gardens, 22 show gardens I think, and that was definitely the I suppose, suppose the overriding team. Across all the gardens small, medium and large there was this more natural, wild style planting and that's the first time that I've noticed it on kind of all gardens. Prior to that it was, you know, maybe half and half and it had been gravitating towards it. But this year I would say, all gardens had elements of that and, yeah, it seems to be. Maybe it is more than a trend, it's, it's a, it's a shift, completely it looks like.

Speaker 2: 33:32

So hopefully I'm sure that there will be some people who backlash and then create tropical, you know, extravagant looking, and I don't think that's a bad thing actually. I think it's just, um, it's just accepting. I think we're retraining our, our aesthetic values to see these wild spaces as being beautiful. I know I definitely have and with you know I've spoken about my old allotment in Kent and that had horsetail and cooch grass which I just couldn't get on top of, and so whatever I planted, especially my perennial plants, um, were just filled with horsetail and couch grass and I hated it. I felt so ashamed of it. And now I look back on photographs of it and it's beautiful. The couch grass, seed heads are gorgeous and amongst all of the perennial wild, perennial cut flowers. So I think I my brain has obviously retrained itself to see beauty and a woolly, wild sort of space, so I think it is a shift in terms of that. Have you ever been to Chelsea?

Speaker 1: 34:28

No, I haven't been, but it's definitely on the agenda, whether it happens next year or not. It tends to be, as we said earlier, it tends to be just a crazy time of the year, generally here as well. So it hasn't happened yet.

Speaker 2: 34:45

It's worth it for the excesses. There's nothing like it. I guess it's a bit like fashion week. I'm, you know it's not an environment I feel naturally at home, but it's um, yeah, it's such a, it's such an experience. I think, yeah, it's, it's just excessive, which is good and bad. You know, I definitely feel a bit of a double-edged thing with the Chelsea Flower Show and you know, there's this amazing spectacle and these amazing gardens and the amount of work and effort and love that goes into these. But then you sort of think, well, you know it's a lot, but just a week, but a lot of the gardens are now.

Speaker 2: 35:20

In fact, I think all of them have to be relocated. Uh, and especially the project giving back gardens, which are the charitable gardens that all have to be part of. The prerequisite of getting the funding is that you're going to relocate the garden at the end. So it's not. It's not the, it's not wasteful in the same way that it possibly was.

Speaker 1: 35:37

It's just excessive yeah, yeah other worlds yeah, and I suppose there is question marks about that whole scene anyway, in that you're putting huge amount of energy resource into into essentially creating a garden, or I know it moves or hopefully moves somewhere else now and gets relocated, but there is question marks over it all. But, yeah, I think, think I really need to see it anyway, just for the I think as you said, a spectacle yeah.

Speaker 2: 36:03

I've always, I've always felt quite critical of it and I, um, I had, I made a show garden a couple of years ago at the NEC for the gardens world live show and the whole theme of that show that year was sustainability and I, they asked me to do the garden and with that in my head you know my training is in horticulture but then in conservation, so I've got this real kind of pull in two different directions about that. With that in my head I was like, okay, I'll do the garden, but it really has to actually be as sustainable as is humanly possible for a show garden. So we did it. You know, I was thinking things like nothing can be new, everything has to be reclaimed or recycled. Even the new products have to be made from recycled materials. So all of the aggregate was concrete waste. All of the um honeycomb for wheelchair access was recycled plastic and that was the only new product that we actually bought, apart from screws and bolts and things which we got marked down on for having new bolts.

Speaker 2: 37:01

Um, but um, yeah, everything was reclaimed or recycled. All the structures were made out of repurposed other post-industrial things. Um, all of the plants had to be grown organically and peat free and come from as near to the NEC or as near to my house as I could get them, so that there were minimal road miles. Um, it all had to be reused at the end, um, pollinator friendly planting, all those things.

Speaker 2: 37:30

I basically thought about every possible thing and then when it was relocated at the end it had to be relocated to very near to the NECs. That went to Coventry when and it was just because I just couldn't bear the thought of saying this is a sustainable thing and actually I hadn't made every single effort to make it so and I think the only unsustainable things was that we borrowed some trees from Hilliers, which is in Southampton, but they were all native, so they were kind of advertising that you know native planting. So they came from Southampton and went back to Southampton. That was the biggest road miles that we had. And then, um, at the end, when everybody was dismantling their gardens and putting a lot of things into skips, um, we didn't do any of that and the only waste that we had was a tiny pile of soil and a piece of wood and that was. I felt like that was probably as much as you can possibly do in a show garden to do it, but I feel like everyone should be doing that every time they build a show garden, as much it felt good to do that that is like, and these are criteria, that that you put in place yourself yes wow

Speaker 2: 38:33

yeah, it wasn't. You know, it was sustainability was the theme, but it could be anything within that. I could have just been growing pollinator friendly plants, saying this is this is my how I can be more. But I was like, well, I'm doing that and I'm doing this and I'm doing that. Just everything about it had to be as sustainable, as sustainable as it could possibly be in that artificial setting of creating a show garden with those parameters, you're going to have to use a serious amount of brain power to, to to stay within that and work within that.

Speaker 2: 39:04

So really well done on that, yeah, yeah I think it gave everyone a bit of a head scratching yeah, for sure but we did it yeah, yeah for sure.

Speaker 1: 39:13

So, looking ahead then, uh, this this weekend you're at the leash garden festival. I know a lot of people are looking forward to seeing and listening to you there, without giving too much away. Have you sort of a team for your talk? Are you just gonna go with the flow or what's? What's the the basis of it?

Speaker 2: 39:30

I think is it? Yeah, not, not, not really. It'll probably be something along the lines of practical and sustainable gardening that we've been speaking about, and that's my passion really, especially growing things that you can use, uh. So, yeah, it will be. It'll be that kind of a thing and, um, I'm really looking forward to it. I've never been to the republican island before. I've been to northern ireland.

Speaker 1: 39:50

My stepmom is is from enniskillen, so, um, I've been to northern ireland, but never the south, so I'm really excited to come yeah, I think you're in for a treat and I know you're coming for a day or two as well, so I think you'll enjoy that. Really looking forward to seeing you next Sunday. So for anyone that's listening, leash Garden Festival Sunday, the 9th of June. It's in Spink Community, grounds, county, leash, so it's basically five minutes from Abbey Leaks, which is pretty much in the centre of Ireland, easy to get to from anywhere in ireland. You know a quick drive a couple of myself on first, then carol wright, carter, bridge gardens and obviously francis then finishes the day with her talk.

Speaker 1: 40:28

So lots of good speakers, lots of really good plant nurseries, specialist plant nurseries, good family day out as well and and really worth the trip. So sunday, the 9th of june, which is this sunday, buds and blossoms in abbey leagues, francis. It's been a really interesting chat. Looking forward to, you know, seeing you on sunday and looking forward to listening to your talk. The book sounds brilliant, um, like, like the idea that, and I like the fact that you're cocooning yourself a little bit away from the public eye for the next year in that garden as well, so that that sounds like there could be good things happening this year yeah yeah, reclaiming it?

Speaker 1: 41:09

yeah, for sure, but it's been a really interesting chat. I look forward to seeing you sunday and thank you very much for coming on. Master, my garden podcast oh, thank you.

Speaker 2: 41:17

It's been really lovely. Thank you for having me, so that's been this week's episode.

Speaker 1: 41:20

A huge thanks to francis for coming on a really interesting chat and I'm sure her her talk on sunday is going to be top class as well. So, as I say, leash garden festival, buds and blossoms sunday, the 9th of june in spink community grounds, so definitely, definitely worth getting to it. I'm on first, I think, at one o'clock, and then other speakers every hour or so afterwards. So she promises to be a great day out for all gardeners and it's a good family day out as well. So hoping to see you all there. And that's been this week's episode. Thanks for listening and until the next time, happy gardening, thank you.