RUCKCast #83: There's A New Dog In Town-Meet The R770!

In our latest episode, Jim and John are joined by Tuofu Lu from RUCKUS PLM to introduce our first Wi-Fi 7 enterprise AP to the world, the RUCKUS Networks R770.

You can read the press release by going to this link here https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20231010838927/en/RUCKUS-Networks-Leads-The-Wi-Fi-7-Revolution-With-The-R770-Access-Point-The-First-Enterprise-Class-Wi-Fi-7-Solution-Driven-by-RUCKUS-AI

To learn more about the RUCKUS Networks R770, check out the website at https://www.ruckusnetworks.com and the R770 page at https://www.ruckusnetworks.com/products/wireless-access-points/r770/ 

Intro music by Alex Grohl, available here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsRWpx8VJ_E
and
https://pixabay.com/users/alexgrohl-25289918/

Transcript

John Deegan: Good morning, Mr. Palmer. How are you, sir? 

Jim Palmer: I'm doing good, John. How are you doing? 

John Deegan: You couldn't even notice what I did. I had, that's all edited now. I don't have to do any buttons. I don't have to worry about it. It's going to be that exact same intro every time. I finally got smart. 

Jim Palmer: I love it. 

John Deegan: Yeah. So I had to make sure the drum got in there and that's, that's Mr. Palmer's happy spot right there. Yes. 

Jim Palmer: When we hit the drum. I'm happy. 

John Deegan: So, so it's a, it's a good day for the, the, those of us in the Ruckus world and who like new technology, because I'm looking at a, a nice little bit of information that came out, not that long ago, hot off the presses, if you will. 

Jim Palmer: Right. Hot off the presses because there's a press release about a new Ruckus AP that's been launched and to make it even more fun, it's a Wi-Fi 7 AP. So, yay! Now's when you need it. Yeah, get your soundboard out, John.

John Deegan: That's a really awesome thing. It's Wi-Fi 7. I can't believe we spent so much time talking about 6E and 7's already here. So, what do we got today? 

Jim Palmer: Well, so, I have connections, because I'm kind of a good, I'm a big man in my own head, in my own world. And so... So I was able to actually get a hold of the product manager, product owner of the R770 and said, Hey, can you come, you know, do a podcast episode with us real quick?

I know it's a busy day. I know you got a lot of stuff going on, but I was able to get Tuofu Lu, who is the product manager. Tuofu, I'll, I'll let you introduce yourself. Tuofu, what, what are you? 

Tuofu Lu: Yeah, hi, Jim and John thanks for inviting me. I'm Tuofu, I'm the product manager for Wi-Fi APs here at the RUCKUS, so I joined the RUCKUS over two years ago.

So yeah, it's a very exciting day. So we are announcing the first Wi-Fi 7 Enterprise ap. 

Jim Palmer: Awesome. So this is, we've been, John and I have been talking about Wi-Fi 7 for a few months now talked to a number of different people and, and so it's actually nice now to actually have a product, not just this, because everything that we've talked about up to this point has all been You know, theoretical and we've been reading the specs and we've been reading the, you know, the pre standard stuff for what 802.11be is going to be. So, you know, now is a great day because now the engineers like John and I now have something we can put our hands on. 

John Deegan: It actually gets a little bit real. And not a little bit, actually, I'm a big proponent. I remember working on talks for conferences that have come and gone, and as much as we're talking about 6E, we were talking about 7 being right on the corner, and we've had so many customers put on, kind of on pause, because why are we going to go 6E if 7's right here?

And at the time, it seemed like it was such a long way away, and here it is. You know, the R770 is officially official. So, you know, it's pretty cool, pretty exciting. I'm not going to lie. So jumping right in, since you're the product owner of this wonderful new device, let's talk some of the specs. You know, I'm a customer, I want to be, you know, getting in on the latest and greatest.

What can we expect out of this AP? 

Tuofu Lu: Yeah, so R770 is tri band ap 2.4 GHz, 5 GHz and 6 GHz can running at the same time. It is fully backward compatible with Wi-Fi 6E it supports Wi-Fi 7. in all three frequency bands. So, overall, the maximum physical data rate can reach 12 Gbps.

Also for this AP, we also have a dual band configuration, and for countries who have not supported 6 GHz bands yet, so dual band configuration will support Wi-Fi 7 in both bands, can reach maximum physical data rate of 6.5 Gbps. So in terms of RF configuration for the tri band, We support 2x2 in 2.4 GHz, 4x4 in five GHz and 2x2 in 6 GHz band.

For the dual band configuration, we support 2x2 in 2.4 GHz and 4x4 in five GHz. So this is the RF configuration. So in addition to the RF, we support the RUCKUS proprietary advantage performance features such as BeamFlex, PD-MRC, ChannelFly and SmartMesh. So these, we keep these RUCKUS proprietary features in, in this AP and also for the 6 GHz band. We support both low power indoor and standard power with AFC. 

And we also have a proprietary indoor location scheme to support AFC operation. So in addition, so we have a backhaul of 10 Gbps Ethernet. And also have another 1 gigabit per second auxiliary port. For power supply, we support PoE in on the 802.3bt Class 5, on the 10 gig ethernet port, and also a 48 volt external DC power. So we also have a one IoT radio on the board. This new IoT radio can support either BLE or Zigbee. It's a programmable and it is meta and thread capable. So we also have a USB port, a USB port that can support additional IoT radio.

So on the security side we support TPM 2.0. So in the past, in our Wi-Fi 6, Wi-Fi 6E aps. We support TPM 1. 2. So this for R770, we support TPM 2.0. So one major advantage of TPM 2.0 is it can store a much longer encryption keys. We added a new feature called secure boot, which was not in our Wi-Fi 6 & 6E AP.

Secure boot, basically, if a hacker hacks into your booting software so that malware will not be able to run with the secure boot feature. And we also introduced our new DPSK3 feature. So this is a brand new feature. So marry our traditional DPSK with WPA3. Supported in all three frequency bands, so DPSK3.

And in addition, we also support FIPS 140-3. So these are the security features we support. Also, on the environment side, we support minus 10 to 50 degrees Celsius. So a lot of indoor APs on the market only support from 0 to 40. So our R770 supports minus 10 to 50 degrees Celsius. On the controller management side, It will support SmartZone 7.0 and the RUCKUS one and Unleashed. So these are, these are the summary of the R770. 

John Deegan: Nice. That's, That's a lot. 

Jim Palmer: I already filled up my page of notes. I mean, we're, we're, what are we? We're, we're nine minutes in and I, and I've already, I got to go to a second page of notes. So this is going to be, it's going to be an interesting one.

John Deegan: You need a larger notepad, Mr. Palmer, but that is a lot. I mean, that's, that's. That's comprehensive to say the least. You know, I think that's, yeah, I mean, I, I just, there's a lot to take in there. It's a lot to digest. For those of you listening because it is an exciting announcement, there will be a link in the show notes that we will put there that's makes that product announcement a lot easier to find.

Jim Palmer: Well, the product announcement and there's also a new web page for the R770. So they will have the data sheet there. You can go look at it. If you weren't like me and furiously writing notes as Tuofu is running through all the different features. I mean, this, this really sounds like, I mean, we didn't really pull a whole lot of punches on this one, did you?

Did we? I mean, it was, you know, you know, 

John Deegan: this is our flagship. 

Jim Palmer: It is. And so between the 10 gig Ethernet, you know, the low power indoor and standard power, and then the IoT stuff, and then, then lots of security features I have to say I'm very happy and surprised that we did go pretty heavy on the security stuff is, is that something we you can explain a little bit more between like the, the TPM 2.0 and the, and the secure boot? 

Cause I mean, there, there might be a lot of people that don't understand exactly what that means or what, I mean, what does that, what does that give us to have those types of features into an AP like the R770? 

Tuofu Lu: So for TPM 2.0, so TPM 1.0 for example, we program 2000 bits a key, a 2K key, right?

For T P M 2.0. We potentially could program encryption key to 3K, 3000 bits. So that increased the security. There are some other security improvement from TPM 1.2 to 2.0. So Secure Boot is that we program a key during the manufacturing or secure boot. So when somebody hack into our booting software.

So it will check, you know, the, the, the software will check and find, finding it's a malware. So it, so the, the booting software, the malware will not be able to run. So that's another aspect we in enhance our security. So on the security side, but in addition, so that the, the, the biggest one is DPSK3, right?

So we, we we enabled DPSK in the past on WPA2. Now it is on WPA3 in all three frequency bands. So this is a very exciting feature for the R770. And FIPS 140-3, that's required by the federal government. So we'll be able to support FIPS 140-3. For the federal government. 

Jim Palmer: I'm just gonna clarify this to make sure that I understand what we're talking about

So you know, FIPS for those who don't know, is a federal standard about, especially around security stuff and how networks are built for, you know, like governments and, you know, Department of Defenses, people like that. And part of the thing that, you know, they really focus on is these. You know, being able to make sure that the devices that they buy and the devices they use are actually, you know, coming from the manufacturers to make them because there's, you know, if you've heard about counterfeit switches or counterfeit APs, that that's part of it.

The other thing I'd, you know, I'd like to highlight, and it's something that I'm pretty sure that I know John doesn't know, but we recently got a thing from the federal government or from the German government talking about these 3, 3,000 bit keys in order, because if you don't know, the more bits you have, you know, in your key, then the, the harder it is to crack and the longer it is to crack.

So it's really kind of exciting from that aspect when we look at it, especially in the, in the news of all these different hacks and all these different types of breaches and all these other things going on. It's nice to know that, you know, we're, we've sort of upped the standard, I guess, or met that high standard that's been set by FIPS and other types of governments around the world of saying, Hey, we need to have this stuff that's very secure and the DPSK3, you know, for those who don't know John can probably fill us in a little bit more on this one.

After his presentation at WLPC this past February the DPSK is a, is a really cool RUCKUS feature, and with WPA3, it changes how that operates a little bit. And so the DPSK3, there's something that we can now talk about, again, a little bit more about how we can offer that same functionality, but with WPA3 and not WPA2.

John Deegan: So I'm, I'm, I'm not gonna talk about that on the show, but maybe. Maybe a February appearance, maybe 

Jim Palmer: Another one, February 2.0. 

John Deegan: I am a glutton for punishment, . So speaking of glutton for punishment, I have to ask, right? So this is, this is like the 800 pound elephant in the room. If it's an 800 pound elephant, I guess it's a skinny, skinny guy.

But, so AFC is a critical piece for 6 GHz for standard power and as we all know we've been waiting and waiting and waiting and that still hasn't been a thing yet, so I know we've been hearing more recently that it's close. Without getting into anything that's under NDA or privileged information.

Just kind of curious when do you think we might be able to actually take advantage of the standard power features? 

Tuofu Lu: Yeah, so based on our current projection, based on everything we see, all the activities from FCC, we're projecting the AFC is targeting to be launched in December this year. So that's our current projection.

So it's probably already one year late. So original projection was December last year. So it's about one year late. So hopefully FCC can successfully launch AFC in December this year. So everybody has been waiting for it for, for the, to maximize, the 6 GHz band, you know, usage of 6 GHz band.

So, yeah, right now we're looking at December this year. 

John Deegan: So basically, with the new hardware coming, because we know this is just the tip of the iceberg, and AFC right around the corner, hopefully Not that 2023 is over yet, but it looks like 2024 is going to be a really exciting year for Wi-Fi. 

Tuofu Lu: Yes, yes.

So for Wi-Fi 7, as I mentioned, Wi-Fi 7 is fully backward compatible with Wi-Fi 6E. And also it is a new Wi-Fi standard. So for customers to buy a Wi-Fi 7 AP is truly future proof. In addition, you know, Wi-Fi 7, all the features. The new features Wi-Fi 7 brings will also improve user experience in many of the segments, vertical segments that we serve.

Jim Palmer: So that's a, that's a nice segue. Thank you for that. Because we have talked to a lot of people about Wi-Fi 7 and we've talked to I've done a lot of presentations on Wi-Fi 7 and so I have a, I have a good idea about these new features that are coming and, you know, which ones, but I'm curious as somebody who has been in charge of building an AP for, you know, to support Wi-Fi 7, you have to know a little bit about these features.

What is some of the... what, what are some of the new features about the R7 or about Wi-Fi 7 with the R770 that you're most interested in and you're most excited about seeing, especially once we can get this deployed and get it into the hands of our, of our, of our customers and get them running? What features are you most interested and excited about?

Tuofu Lu: And that's a great question Jim. So we are excited about several features in Wi-Fi 7. The key features. So one, first of all, so every time there's a new Wi-Fi standard, So people always ask you know, is there a speed improvement? Right? So every Wi-Fi generation there is a Wi-Fi speed throughput improvement.

So Wi-Fi 7 is no exception. So Wi-Fi 7 there, there are two areas. That was improved to improve the throughput of Wi-Fi 7. One is in the 6GHz band. The standard increased bandwidth from 160MHz to 320MHz. So that doubled the throughput in the 6GHz band. The other... technique introduced is 4K-QAM.

4K-QAM is a new modulation scheme introduced in all three frequency bands. So 4K-QAM increase the peak throughput by 20%. So combine with combining these two. So for Wi-Fi 7, as I mentioned, if give you example, if you have a 4x4 plus 4x4 plus 4x4 AP, you can reach 19 Gbps maximum file data rate. 

For a 2x2, plus 2x2, plus 2x2 AP, you can reach close to 10 Gbps physical data rate. So that, that's a significant increase compared to Wi-Fi 6. So that, this is on the, on the speed side, on the throughput side. The other very interesting feature is called punctured transmission.

So ever since Wi-Fi started in 1999, it was Apple iBook G3. So when a client device for example, your, your laptop wants to communicate, send a packet to the AP. If there's an interference in that frequency channel, you either have to wait until that interference goes away, or you have to transmit very small narrow frequency band to, to, to send the data to the AP.

So for example, if you have an 80 MHz band, if there is a interference in the channel, you either have to wait until interference goes away, or in some cases, you can choose a 20 MHz channel to send data to the, to the AP. So that makes the whole system inefficient. So in, in terms of when there is an interference.

So punctured transmission is a new feature in Wi-Fi 7. Basically, allow you continue to transmit data without in the presence of interference. For example, if you have an 80 MHz channel, when you transmit the data in Wi-Fi 7, if there is a 20 MHz interference, in that channel. You don't have to wait.

You can use the rest of 60 MHz to continue transmitting data from your laptop to the AP. So that significantly improved the entire system efficiency. So now you don't have to wait if there's an interference. It's called a punctured transmission. The other exciting feature is called Multi Link Operation.

So for the past 24 years, so for Wi-Fi, when a laptop or for a mobile phone want to send the data to the AP or AP sends data to the client device. You either using 2 GHz band, 2. 4 GHz band or 5 GHz band or recently 6 GHz band, you only have one link between a client device.

So Multi Link Operations for the first time in the Wi-Fi standard to allow the client and AP to talk to each other using two frequency links. So for example, you can have 2 GHz and 5 GHz communicating between the client device and AP at the same time. Or 2 GHz and 6 GHz link between AP and client device at the same time. Or 5 GHz and 6 GHz communicate between the AP and the client at the same time. So it allows two physical links between the AP and the client devices. So it's called Multi Link Operations. So what, what are the benefits of Multi Link Operations?

First of all, first one is the throughput. So imagine if you go from point A to point B, if you have only one bridge, so the throughput is the throughput capacity of that bridge. Now, if you build another bridge, you have two bridges to go from A to B. Your throughput doubles. because you have two bridges.

So you basically potentially double the throughput, increase the throughput using the Multi Link Operation. The other advantage of Multi Link Operations, which we think is even more important, is latency. So imagine you go from A to B, there's only one bridge. If that bridge is congested, so you are out of luck, you have to follow the traffic on that bridge slowly, slowly go from A to B.

Now you have two bridges from A to B. If bridge number one is congested, you can choose bridge number two to go from A to B. If bridge number two is congested, you can go using bridge number one to go from A to B. So potentially, you can go from A to B faster, but significantly reduce the latency. So if you're connecting your laptop with AP, using both 2 GHz band and 5 GHz band.

If your 2GHz band has interference, you can choose send your data through the 5 GHz band from your laptop to the AP. If the 5 GHz band is congested, you can choose 2.4 GHz band to send your data from your laptop to the AP. So that significantly reduce the latency. So by reducing the latency, you really help applications like gaming, Zoom calls, Microsoft Teams calls, these video calls, AR, VR, these latency sensitive applications.

So that's a benefit of Multi Link Operation. The other one we think is also important is the QoS improvement. So there are a lot of small QoS improvement in many features that learned from Wi-Fi 6 deployment in the field. So together, all these smaller improvements in these features together improve the overall user experience by using Wi-Fi.

So these are the major improvements in Wi-Fi 7, in terms of Wi-Fi 7 features. 

Jim Palmer: You know, I'll tell you the one that I'm the most excited about is the Multi Link Operation. And I was actually having a conversation with an SE, I just, right before we jumped on this call and he was talking about, you know, he was, had some questions about the Multi Link Operation.

You know, I told him, I said, you know, I said, the thing that I'm looking forward to the most is the ability of the client, like you were talking about, to be able to pick, you know, is that it's, it's having a little bit more intelligence instead of just saying, I'm just going to pick. This link for whatever random, you know, reason that I've been programmed to do it almost, to me, it feels like our clients are now becoming actually a part of the infrastructure, you know, part of the network, as opposed to just saying, I'm going to do whatever I want.

So this idea that clients are going to pay attention and you know, look at, Hey, which link is the best for me to send my data on? That's the one I'm most excited about. 

And a side note I want to throw in here for all the rest of the listeners, Tuofu mentioned doing 4K-QAM in all three bands, but I will caution you that if you think you're going to get 4K-QAM at 2.4 in anything other than the lab, it's probably not going to happen.

So. That massive speed increase at 2.4 is probably not going to happen. Just to, just to throw that disclaimer out there. 

John Deegan: It reminds me of... 

Tuofu Lu: That's right. As I mentioned 4K-QAM increased you know, speed by 20%. So since in 2.4 GHz the overall speed is already low, so the 20 percent increase may not be that much, but for 5 GHz and 6 GHz, because their bandwidth can reach 5 GHz can reach 160MHz, 6 GHz now can reach 320 MHz.

That extra 20 percent is actually a lot. That's right. 

Jim Palmer: Yeah.

John Deegan: And it reminds me, Jim. You might have thought of this too, and I remember it came up at Field Day back over, whatever it was, July, I guess 

Jim Palmer: Or maybe May. 

John Deegan: There was a, there was a sheet while you were there, so you'd know. But there was a slide that we shared that showed, like, the max theoretical and the max, like, real world expected.

And I can't remember if that was for 6E or for 7, but, but something like that is a great thing to look at just to get your set your expectations. 

Jim Palmer: We call it good put, and it was. It was 4K-QAM, but you know, the thing that we kind of breezed over is the spatial streams. You know, there's not going to, there's not a 16 spatial stream device.

So, you know, most of your device is going to be two spatial streams. And so we're looking at a good put of like 5 Gbps, which is a two spatial stream, 4K-QAM on a 320 MHz channel. So, yeah, that's going to get you that 5 Gig and if 5 Gig doesn't do you for one laptop talking to one AP, then go, go get yourself some cable.

John Deegan: I mean, this is, this is when we, when you get a bunch of us in a, at a conference, we, you know, the terms have been thrown around a lot and I like to use it. It's, it's drag racing a bus, you know, a lot of the, the max speeds. And, you know, what you see on the boxes, it's, it's the max theoretical, it can be done in a lab, it's like one device on earth that can actually hit those speeds.

The reality is, for most end users, speed, the devices that are out now, you know, I mean, this is not my sales pitch, but the devices that are out now are fast enough. What this is really giving us just my opinion and piling on a little bit. Things like puncturing and MLO, it's allowing us to use what we have more efficiently because we've proven time and time again in 2.4, 5, hopefully for a while not 6, but we've proven time and time again that we can really make a mess of the spectrum, collectively, as people.

You turn on a scanner in a neighborhood and it's a mess. So it's, it's, the efficiency is what I think is going to help boost performance more than anything else, but we'll see. So. Pivoting a little bit this is kind of an open ended question, Tuofu I obviously support some larger companies, Jim is not an SE, so he supports everybody.

Is there a customer, is there a vertical, a sector, an industry, whatever you want to call it, that you see focusing on the R770, and if so, why? You know, and for that matter, taking it a little bit further, you know, maybe, since you were heavily involved with its kind of conception and birth, if you will was there a particular segment that the team really saw as sort of the bread and butter sweet spot for this, for this particular AP?

Tuofu Lu: Yeah, so we think Wi-Fi 7, because of these new features, is going to be enhance user experience. Experiencing many of the verticals, such as hospitality, education, high density venues, large public venues, and also in Multi Dwelling Units. So so for, for example, for hospitality, so, so for hospitality, basically the goal is to improve guest experience, right?

For business people, they probably rely on the hotel complimentary Wi-Fi for work, for video conferencing, for leisure guests, so probably they will play games, stream videos, access online. You know, hotel online content in their hotel rooms. So, so Wi-Fi 7 will benefit, you know, in, in, in hospitality because of the, the, the feature I just mentioned, low latency and reliability of connection. Also the, the, the capacity as well for, for these video streaming. 

And in education, we think. It will support, you know provide a seamless supported learning environment and with the capacity in the, as I mentioned, in the 6 GHz band. And they will be able to connect more users and classrooms to stream videos, collaborate in shared documents and assignments in the education environment and also supporting online classes.

So in large public venue, for example, airports, convention centers, stadiums, arenas, so to improve the capacity, especially in the 6 GHz band, and, and will allow, you know you know, more users to actually for, for streaming, you know, the concerts, sporting events, right? And also using upload their social media contents, ordering food, you know, during the matches, and also enable the facilities of these venues.

To have you know, to get valuable data insights and analytics, you know, to improve their operational efficiency. So Wi-Fi 7 will be able to help in the large public venue sector. So in Multi Dwelling Units, and also it's apartments so basically you have less interference you know, from, from the from multiple users in different, you know, different apartments, as I mentioned punctured transmission. And also the Multi Link Operation will help improve this gaming experience. 

For remote workers, they'll be able to work from home with a reliable video conferencing, and then talking to friends and family using video, so that will improve user experience in the Multi Dwelling Units as well. So, so Wi-Fi 7.

We'll be able to touch many and many of the verticals I list these for as an example. 

Jim Palmer: Awesome. So I know you're busy and because today is a big day for you, you know, this is, this has been a long time coming and, and I happen, I know from a lot of internal emails and everything that you've been, I mean, this is something you've been working on for a long time.

So I want to let you get back into you know, managing this day. But before we go, I want to ask you, you know, what final message or thought that you would want listeners to take away from, you know, this announcement of the R770? You know, you've been, you've been watching this thing and nurturing it and growing it for so long.

You know, what's the, what's the one thing you'd want people to take away from our conversation today about the R770? 

Tuofu Lu: So Wi-Fi itself is a ecosystem. It consists, consists of APs and client devices. Every time there's a new Wi-Fi, Wi-Fi standards coming out, the interoperability between the AP and client device is extremely important.

So during the past, RUCKUS has been actively working with an external organization on interoperability tests between our Wi-Fi 7 AP and a variety of Wi-Fi 7 client devices. So to make sure we have good interoperability with for example, laptops and mobile phones. And in addition, during the past year, RUCKUS has been actively working with major client ecosystem, client ecosystem partners directly to make sure interoperability between our Wi-Fi 7 AP and our partners Wi-Fi 7 client devices.

So we have done a lot of work to our interoperability between our AP and client devices. So as Jim mentioned, so if you, you're interested in our Wi-Fi 7 and our R770 ap, you can go to www.ruckusnetworks.com. And there's a Wi-Fi 7 page containing a lot of information, including a tech, detailed technical white paper.

And also, we have a weekly Wi-Fi 7 blogs there. And there will be a lot more content coming. So, overall, Wi-Fi 7 is here, so why not give it a try? So, if you are interested please reach out to RUCKUS sales representative in your region. Yeah, so it's an exciting day. Yeah. So thank you very much. 

John Deegan: No, I'm glad to have you Tuofu.

And, and thank you again. I know, like Jim said, it's a, it's a hectic day. It's almost like giving birth to a child except your child is a sort of a square with a bunch of silicon in it. And that just, yeah, we went off the rails, took us whole episode. The whole episode. We almost made it without going off the rails, and I just took it.

Jim Palmer: Oh, that's true. Well, I mean, normally you don't hang your baby from the ceiling, but. 

John Deegan: Yeah, well, sometimes you do, but you don't know. So, on that note, just in the interest of time, since Tuofu is really, really busy and I don't know that I have anything else, right? My, my, my... I can't wait to get my hands on an R770.

More importantly, I can't wait to get my hands on a Wi-Fi 7 client. That's a whole different story. That's a stray dog for down the road. I have nothing else so I'm going to say thank you, Tuofu. Jim, I don't know if you have any parting thoughts.

Jim Palmer: Thank you, Tuofu, for taking some time out of your day to chat with us real quick.

Tuofu Lu: Yeah, thanks, John. Thanks, Jim. Once again, thank you for inviting me. 

John Deegan: No problem. And on that note, I'll see everybody on the next episode.