Pasture Grasses and Browse

In this bonus episode with Dr. Woody Lane, a livestock nutritionist and forage specialist and consultant, who's the owner of Lane Livestock Services and the author of three books on forages, grazing, soils, and livestock nutrition, we are tackling some great questions submitted by several Goats 365 members.

Dr. Lane addresses warm season grasses–great for warmer climates–and the unique biochemical makeup that differentiates them from cool season grasses. He also gives important management advice that could prevent your animals from being sickened by the toxic compounds found in sorghum sudangrass and some tall fescue. He also answers the question we all want to know: “What is the best kind of pasture for goats so you can stop worrying about them dying?”

This the second half of Dr. Lane’s awesome interview which lasted more than an hour. If you haven’t yet heard the first half, be sure to listen in as Dr. Lane covers the four basic principles of good grazing, offers a practical way to measure how many goats per acre your pasture can support, and explains the amazing function of a rumen. 

See full show notes here >>  https://thriftyhomesteader.com/pasture-grasses/

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Transcript

Introduction 00:03
For the love of goats. We are talking about everything goat. Whether you’re a goat owner, a breeder, or just a fan of these wonderful creatures, we’ve got you covered. And now, here’s Deborah Niemann.

Deborah 00:17
Hey, everyone! We are back for episode two with Dr. Woody Lane, a livestock nutritionist and forage specialist who is also the owner of Lane Livestock Services. He is the author of three books on forages, grazing, soils, and livestock nutrition, and he is a former State Extension specialist with the University of Wisconsin for sheep and beef cattle nutrition. Our interview with Dr. Lane wound up lasting an hour, so if you missed it, be sure to find last week’s episode where we talk about the basics of good grazing and good pasture management. And this week, we are going to be answering some specific questions from some of my Goats 365 members. I told them I was going to be interviewing Dr. Lane, and asked if they had any questions, and these are the questions that they came up with. So, I hope you enjoy today’s bonus episode. 

Deborah 01:08
I wanted to give a shout out to Phil Hopkins, one of our podcast listeners and a Goats 365 member, who recommended you as a guest because he read your book and thought it was so fabulous and that you'd have so much to share. And so I asked him if he had any specific questions for you, which he does. And so he was wondering, because he's in Tennessee, and was wondering what kind of heat- and drought-resistant plants could survive their Tennessee summers.

Dr. Lane 01:38
Cactus. Great! Don't anyone write that down. 

Deborah 01:44
Okay. 

Dr. Lane 01:46
Tennessee has got warm, humid summers. And the question is a little bit is, I addressed as warm season grasses versus cool season grasses, that type of thing. Just, and I had this conversation actually a little bit here in–I'm in Western Oregon–and someone was talking about a warm season grass. And she said that it was a warm season because it was really growing well in the warm season. No. The concept of warm season--and we're talking warm season stuff versus cool season stuff–warm season grasses and cool season grasses are not just because they grow at different times. They're actually very strictly identified by their biochemistry. Warm season grasses have a different biochemistry than cool season grasses. As you all know, all grasses have green leaves. What's in the green leaves? What do, what do those green leaves do? Photosynthesis, right? And biochemically, what happens is water plus CO2, or carbon dioxide together, makes a carbohydrate. And that's the big equation of photosynthesis. It has a lot of steps in there and all sorts of keeps scientists busy lifetimes. But the end result is water plus carbon dioxide equals a carbohydrate. The carbohydrate that comes out of that initial thing has three carbons in it. And then you take that three carbon, combine it with another, the same three carbon, and you get six carbons, which is glucose. And then from all roads lead from glucose. That's like, that's biochemistry. And anyone who has ever taken a biochemistry course and handled their twelve pound textbook, that's the big thing. The first thing you learn is that glucose is the starting point of everything in terms of biochemistry. And it comes–in a plant, it starts with this photosynthesis. And that first product of photosynthesis is a three carbon product. Except warm season. Cool season grasses, that's the case. In a warm season grass, in addition to doing that, they have a separate photosynthesis setup that produces–you have CO2 and H20– gives you a four carbon unit. It's got four carbons in it. And it uses that four carbon unit to turbocharge the rest of the photosynthesis during hot weather. So what is done is that a warm season grass is designed biochemically to handle higher temperatures. And then we'll go into–I will not bore you with the details of that. But the end result is a warm season grass. One of the first products of photosynthesis has four carbons, hence it is known in the world as a C4 grass. And cool season grasses, their main first product is three carbons, so it's known as a C3 grass. And you'll see this in the literature all the time, C4 grasses versus C3 grasses. And species are different. Warm season grass has a C4 pathway. The cool season grasses do not. It’s that clear. Now that doesn't mean that they can't grow in–some warm season grasses can get down into cool temperatures. Some warm–cool season grasses can get up to the hot temperatures. 

Dr. Lane 05:11
For example, a classic in Tennessee, or in Northern Alabama, or in northern Georgia, Virginia, the classic cool season grass is tall fescue, and it will grow also in the edges of the very hot weather. It does okay, as long as it has something called endophyte in it. Endophyte is the, the fungus that grows there that gives a very symbiotic–it allows the tall fescue to handle the hot weather and the bugs and the extra trampling and all that stuff that goes on. So the grasses are much more resilient to that. And that's the great K31 tall fescues had that. Unfortunately, endophyte, the classic endophyte, is also toxic to animals. So you get the issue of, of summer slump and all sorts of things, the problems. We've improved things. There's now endophyte that's animal friendly and it's called novel endophyte. So you can get tall fescue varieties that have novel endophyte in it. It’ll do just fine and will, and will be perennial. Tall fescue is the, is the one cool season grass that will do very well in those areas that have hot, long, humid summers. And, it's known as the Fescue Belt, because that’s, it naturally grows there. But if you're going to plant it, you don't want the classic endophyte. You want the novel endophyte. It’s called, literally in the–it's called in the market “novel endophyte.” That's the type of endophyte that’s–does not have the poisonous, the toxic, alkaloids. So, to answer his question, tall fescue would be a good one. Other types of the–a lot of legumes. A lot of clovers will work. There's also some, you know, perennial peanut, things of that nature.

Deborah 07:00
What about sorghum sudangrass?

Dr. Lane 07:02
Okay, sorghum sudangrass. It's a warm season grass. Warm season grasses are things like sorghum sudangrass, sorghum, or sudangrass, you know, corn, Johnson grass, Teff. People call it Teffgrass, but it’s Teff. Crabgrass, and then a lot of the others.You know, Bermuda grass. Those are all C4 warm season grasses. The thing was, is some of them, like Bermuda grass, is a perennial. So that's an important thing. You can grow perennials or annuals. But, but sorghum sudangrass is an annual. It has to be planted after the frost. Otherwise, it'll die. It'll, it'll rot in the ground. And it'll grow. And the good thing–well, it's changed since the old ones. There are new traits to sorghum sudangrass that are very, very good. But the thing that people are afraid of sorghum sudangrass, two things: nitrates and cyanide. Nitrates is–that’s a problem in a lot of different grasses, occasionally, that–and in both of those problems, we can control with good management. The nitrates you can test for. You know, you eat it when it's higher. Usually that will happen in very cloudy, long cloudy weather with a lot of fertility and nitrogen fertilizer. So the nitrogen gets absorbed into the plants but doesn't get up to the leaves so it's not converted into carbohydrates. So it kind of sits there as nitrates in the stems, the lower stems, and sometimes the leaves, especially if it's been overcast for a long time. And what happens if it can't have photosynthesis as well. So that happens, we just have to deal with that. Actually, feed some grain. That will help. The other part, though, is the cyanide. And if you guess wrongly on the cyanide, the results, unfortunately, are spectacular. So you don't really want to do this wrong. Thing with sorghum sudangrass is very simple. Don't ever graze it under 18 inches. There’s varieties now–most of the varieties of sorghum sudangrass are going to be low in cyanide. It's not cyanide, per se, it's a, it's a compound that has the cyanide part of it. And then when it gets into the rumen, that cyanide part is released and then absorbed into the blood. And then bad news happens. 

Dr. Lane 09:13
Animals actually, including humans, have a way of detoxifying low levels of cyanide, and get rid of it in the urine. But it's relatively easy to get above those, those thresholds there and you really don't want to. Cyanide is, of course, extremely toxic. And if an animal dies of cyanide poisoning, the blood is bright red because the blood can't get rid of the oxygen into the cells. That's why. It's bright red because the animal basically suffers from lack of oxygen very quickly. The thing is–that basic rule is the–that compound, it's called dhurrin, d-h-u-r-r-i-n, is if that variety has, has high levels of it, it's going to be in the lower parts of the plant when the plant is still very young. So you wait till the plant is 18 inches high and then graze it from then on or cut it from then on. But right after a drought period–so this is new young growth underneath– that can be high in cyanide, so you have to be careful on that. And also after a frost. You know you have standing sorghum sudangrass, and then a frost comes. Don't graze it or do anything with it for about a week to ten days. And then the cyanide will have volatilized off. But sorghum sudangrass is an annual. It produces an incredible amount of feed, quite safely, if you know how to handle it. We know how to manage it. And it's got a couple of traits–the prokitic dwarfs now, which are smaller, send out more tillers, and they're very good for grazing. And so that's a trait. There's a trait that's called BMR, brown mid-rib, if you turn the leaf underneath. The same happens in corn. So you turn it underneath, instead of being a green–you know how corn big leaf is and underneath is kind of this big rib. It's normally green. Well, if it's brown, it's got that brown mid-rib trait, which effectively gives it a more digestible fiber. It's a, it's a mutant. It's been around for a while and it's not a GMO. I mean these things have been, just in the classic way, have been chosen. And–and I know people who, who plant sorghum sudangrass, and it’s BMR, brown mid-rib. And the TDN value for those who know what TDN is is up about five to seven units over non-brown mid-rib. Not extra protein, but it's more energy. So it's, it's you know–it's that fiber is more digestible. So that's a good trait. And there's one called photoperiod sensitive that it's now out there, you know, just like 90 day corn or 120 day corn, sorghum sudangrass will go to seed after a certain period of time, right? And once it goes to seed, it loses a lot of, of its nutrition, it's much lower in protein, much lower energy. Well, the varieties that are–have this photoperiod sensitive trait, they don't have that fixed number of days. What they do is they get their signal to go to seed when the day length starts getting much shorter, which is sometime in late September or early October, which means that when they're growing, they stay leafy until that point. So you can get a much longer growing, uhhh, grazing period on those. So those are three traits that have become part of sorghum sudangrass that have made sorghum sudangrass incredibly better, a valuable tool under the right conditions. It is an annual, so you got to plant it every–when, you know, it's not a perennial. But, still, we know how to manage it. It's got a couple of potential issues. Again, we know how to manage it. And it provides a lot of feed. So I hope that answers your, your, your reader’s question, probably in much more detail than you wanted. 

Deborah 12:54
Yeah, oh, he'll love it. He's, he's a nerdy science guy. And so he will love all of the details, I'm sure. And then the last question I was going to ask was one that was submitted by one of my Goats 365 members, who, I thought it was just a really nice general question. And that was: what sort of land would I be able to run my goats on and not worry about them dying? And my answer to that is just always like, well, the more browse the better, because there aren't, there's no worm larvae in the leaves. So browse is good. But I thought you, I mean I know you've got something way better to say than that. 

Dr. Lane 13:35
No, actually, that's–goats are browsers. I mean, they, they evolved as being browsers. And there's, there's all sorts of good things that–I mean, cattle and sheep, bison are grazers. What they do effectively is vacuum the ground. They go through there and have their heads down and they do things. Goats, of course, eat upwards. They browse. There's all sorts of evolutionary ramifications on that. Goats are much more susceptible to parasites, as you more than well know. And you've had all sorts of, of hours of talks about that. And of course, they are, they have a different capability of handling wormers, and the dosages are different, and veterinarians are aware of that and goats are goats. I mean, there's things that have to be done with goats that are different, that are not cheap. Under those conditions. From a nutritional point of view, that's a whole different thing. But from a veterinary point of view for parasites, oh my gosh, yes. On the other hand, goats can eat leaves, which we know. They don't get oak toxicity, whereas cattle and sheep do and the reason are the, are the hydrolysable tannins that are in oak leaves. Oak leaves. Tannins aren't tannins. There's, there's condensed tannins, which we know about, for example, sericea lespedeza, and they they affect, they were able to naturally reduce the amount of parasites. But there's a different type of tannin called hydrolysable tannins which are toxic. And they will, you know, besides giving gastritis, the permanent damage to the kidney and animals die. And cattle and sheep, if they eat green acorns and oak leaves on the ground, that's the bad–if they have enough of it–it can be real bad news. But goats are okay with it. And the reason they are is they have a protein in their saliva that binds to these hydrolysable tannins so that they can’t cause the damage. They're not absorbed. Sheep and goat, cattle do not have that, but goats and deer do, because they evolved to handle these things that are common in leaves of, you know, of tall plants. Whereas, you know, the grazer doesn't have, doesn’t  normally eat that and when they do they can get hit with this toxin. And there's been a lot of veterinary reports on lots of deaths that way. So, in that sense, now, come back to the original question, Where can I put animals that..? Have lots of browse. Lots of browse. I mean, in order to run goats on pastures, in addition to the principles that I've been discussing, those principles I've been discussing apply to whatever grazers that are being used, or at least ruminants. Alright. But goats being browsers could avoid a lot of the problems of parasite issues by simply reaching up. Is you're absolutely right, that's, that's what goats do. And there's other things that they can, you know, they reach up and there's a mountain lion up there, that's a problem. But, but, in general, lots of browse. And to put the goats out on paddocks and using them for intensive grazing requires a lot of skill. And, unfortunately, if that skill is not there, you end up losing goats. If they have browse, and that's a major part of it, it reduces that risk a lot. I don't know how better to answer because, you know, it's why goats are not allowed in solar farms, because they like to climb.

Deborah 16:58
Yes, exactly. Yeah, I, we've talked to solar installers before, and they, and they have said that. Like this is, this is known among–in the solar industry, it's like, they will put solar panels on a field with sheep, but not goats.

Dr. Lane 17:14
You know, it's not rocket science. We know that goats climb. And yeah, you can build solar panels so the goats can't climb, and that has to be built in. But I mean, sheep are perfect for that type of management. And again, that's, there's a big effort going in that direction. But one thing that I would want to say though, and this kind of addresses one point you made earlier about mob grazing. It's a concept in grazing. You've heard of stock, you know, a stocking rate? Well, a stocking rate has an important point to range country where you have a certain number of animals and, and they pay per animal unit that's out there per month. That's a standard thing. That's, that's how–that was developed over 100 years ago. And there'll be five sheep to a cow’s animal unit, and 1000 pound cow, or 1100 pound cow’s animal unit, and they're five sheep equal that. I'm not sure how they deal with goats. It's probably the same. But the end result is, that has certain purposes. From an intensive grazing, or in places where there's, where there's browse and there's all sorts of stuff, that term means nothing. There's a different term that does mean something. And the term I'm thinking of is stocking density, which equates to grazing pressure. And it's very, very easy to calculate. It's a number of pounds of animal per acre. So if you’ve got, you know, 150 pound goats, and you got ten of them, which gives you 1500 pounds, and they are in one acre, you've got a stocking density of 1500 pounds. If you put a fence in the middle of that, so you get on there on half an acre, your stocking density is 3000 pounds per acre. If you put a fence in there again, halfway, now the goats in that little part, or quarter, is, is 6000 pounds. So you see what I'm saying. So it's a number of pounds an animal per acre. And the higher that number, the more evenly the manure is spread. And you can use that number as grazing pressure. So putting goats in an area to take out the weeds depends on the stocking density. If you put one goat out in five acres just to get rid of the weeds, 800 goats might do a better job, right? Well, how do you figure it? Well, you calculate the stocking density. And the higher the stocking density, the better they're going to get the weeds. And here's where you come in certain terminology. 

Dr. Lane 19:43
Most people are using stocking densities under 5000 pounds, which would be five 1000 pound cows per acre. That's you know, and then they move on. You get to intensive grazing, good rotational management, intensive grazing, you're getting up to 60,000-70,000, 100,000-120,000 pounds an acre. Mob grazing is over 200,000 pounds an acre. Now you're moving them quickly. You always, you have enough feed, and you move them before they go–they don't scalp the ground, you move them. In that you're doing mob grazing, you're probably moving them every 12 hours or a day and you put it–but getting goats up to 30,000 pounds. I know from experience getting sheep, tall fescue, for example, is not a particularly palatable–compared to other grasses, tall fescue is always left. You always get these clumps of tall fescue is because the animals eat everything else. Well, if I can get up to about 15,000 or 20,000 pounds an acre, they eat tall fescue and that's not hard. You just use electric fence. They do the same with goats. So if I want to get rid of certain weeds, get them tighter. You get them–and the calculations vary. I mean, you could do square feet, you know 56,400 or whatever it is square feet per acre, you can do the calculation. But if you can get up to 20,000-30,000 pounds an acre with goats, and then move them accordingly, and with that five day rule and all that, you take out weeds very nicely. And some weeds like gorse, which is like scotch broom. You know what scotch broom is? It's good if you don't. It's a, it's a, it’s a yellow flower bush. And gorse is a yellow flower bush that has two or three inch thorns on it. So goats can handle that, at least a part of it on the edges. Depends, again, on stocking density, but there's all sorts of weeds that will come out when we–can be taken out when you get the stocking density high enough. And you can do that calculation before, again, before you–if you don't have enough goats, or you go okay, I can get stocking density real high by moving the fence in so they're really in more tightly grazing. The stocking density is a way of expressing grazing pressure, and that's what that means. So that goats can be managed, but always keeping in mind the issues with parasites. So I think that might at least address the question that you might have had, whichever the question was.

Deborah 22:06
Yes, about how, what kind of land you would have, be able to run your goats on and not worry about them dying? And, yeah, you definitely covered that in there. This, this whole episode has just been fantastic. You have provided everyone with so much valuable information that’s so actionable. I think people are going to understand all of these concepts way better, since you explain them to us so clearly and in such a measurable way. Not just kind of like, well, you have to play it by ear, trial and error. Like you, you've got some really solid numbers and stuff and ways that people can do the math. So, I'm sure, I still have a million questions. But I know, we've, we've talked for a while. I'm sure listeners have more questions, where can people find you online? 

Dr. Lane 22:55
Well, I'm not really doing much answering because I'm trying to retire. So I'm not spending time doing thing–get my books, for starters. And I've got three books out and they're on Amazon, and there are other places as well. Premiere has got them. And, you know, it's very easy to get them and, and Amazon charges whatever they charge, as you know. But, but the–there's a lot of material in those in the–in a lot of the detail that I've talked about. But it gives a lot of this stuff right off the top. And the books have indexes, so it's really easy to find stuff. And they're also in Kindle. So, you know, you can do it that way as well. So there's that. There is–I do have a website, WoodyLane.com. And there is a Contact Me type of thing in that. So there is a Facebook. Just type in my name, “Woody Lane nutritionist” is–you'll get something there, as well. But I, frankly, don't spend a whole lot of time answering emails. To answer something when you’re a professional takes a lot more, long time, because every once–once it's written, and it's in digital form, it can be spread across the world. So you really want to make–I do. Also, as a consultant, one of the things I've learned over the time is that each farm is unique. So an answer to you with your farm may be very different than an answer to your neighbor for the same question. And I don't really feel comfortable giving a lot of answers. I mean, we can always talk principles. I always have lots and lots of information about sorghum sudangrass, or something of that nature. But the–knowing a person's farm. I need to walk across it. I need to listen to what they're saying and see things, and I'll see things differently than a farmer will. Because I'll be looking for different things. And I'm listening to what they are saying, and also what they're not saying. And that gives me a chance to dovetail and fashion options and advice that fits their situation. And to my mind, that's really the best and only professional way I can really work with farms is to really understand where they're coming from, what they're trying to do. 

Dr. Lane 25:21
And, like “what should I plant?" sounds like a simple question. But in reality, it's an incredibly difficult one, particularly if you're dealing with perennials. Because if you're dealing with perennials, you're gonna live with that for a long time. One tip though, I could say, if you don't know what you're going to do, and as we say in square dance calling: if you don't know where you're going, go there quickly. But the–what you could do, if you want to learn how to learn some of these principles, is get annual ryegrass. Annual ryegrass is usually the cheapest seed. You could broadcast it on the ground. First you have to get the ground so it's pretty bare, or cut down a lot. So, and you broadcast it. Put 50 pounds an acre. That's one bag of seed per acre. Broadcast and put some fertilizer on it or whatever you want to. And then step back and watch it grow. And what if every–I've done this on my own place. And annual ryegrass is the secret of the world. Because you can get that. It's usually the cheapest seed. Get pure stuff. Don't get it as a mixture. You want annual ryegrass seed. Broadcast it out there, maybe 45-50 pounds an acre. It's like one bag an acre. And then get some fertility and water on it, and it's going to explode. And what it does is it gives you extremely high quality forage, a lot of it, which gives you a chance to move fence around, learn how to do this stuff, apply the principles, et cetera, et cetera. And then after a year, it goes away. And you haven't made an investment you have to live with the mistakes. It gives you more time to make, oh, now I'm thinking about this, I've learned this, I can add next year, I might do it again, give me another year. And, you know, gives you an opportunity to learn as well as plan for the future years. And we've used this a lot as a, as an initial year, becoming used to good grazing. And it doesn't have the ramifications of you're stuck with it for, you know, 10 years, if you plan, and you haven't put a lot of money, you haven't broken ground. So that's important, breaking ground relative to soil health. We never did get into that part. But the end result is that, that having two acres of annual rye grass that's growing at high speed, you learn how to graze with, with good techniques. And that's it.

Deborah 27:41
Yeah, we've done that. I, and I bought, I bought the rye grass because it was cheap, and I had some bare spots. And it grows beautifully. It's this lovely, fine grass that the goats just love. And it was wonderful. And I really loved it.

Dr. Lane 27:58
Well, we're talking annual ryegrass and that's a little different. 

Deborah 28:01
Yeah, it was annual.

Dr. Lane 28:03
Anyone who has come through my courses knows that there's annual and perennial, and they, they always feel guilty if they don't say the–because annual is a different species. And it has different characteristics. 

Deborah 28:13
Yeah. And it’s cheap.The annual is cheaper. 

Dr. Lane 28:16
Yes. It is.

Deborah 28:17
That’s why I bought it because it was cheaper. I'm like, Well, I know it's only annual, but it's cheaper. So for all the reasons you said, like, I'm not really sure what I'm doing, you know. So this is, this is a cheap experiment. 

Dr. Lane 28:29
And if someone doesn't know, get a bag of it, put it out on a, you know, in the backyard or something and just do that and just see what happens. And if, it's doesn't grow, then there's something else going on weird. And so you haven't wasted any money there. But if you do it and go wow, then you take a paddock, a pasture, and actually, that's what it'd be–what you're going to do for a year on that pasture and see what happens.

Deborah 28:49
Well, I love what you said about needing, basically you said what I say all the time when people ask me questions is the answer is it depends. There's, there is no one size fits all answer for anything related to living beings, you know, whether that's humans or goats or whatever. And the example I always give is that if my neighbor of 20 years, four miles away from me had supplemented her goats with copper the way I had to, she would have killed them all with copper toxicity, because we had completely different water even though she was four miles away. You know, my water was what a former intern referred to as fart water, because it stank so badly. 

Dr. Lane 29:29
A lot of sulfur in it. 

Deborah 29:30
Yes, it was very stinky stuff. So, thank you so much for joining us today.

Dr. Lane 29:36
Well, Deborah, thank you for inviting me. It's been a pleasure. You, you appreciate the types of stuff that I, I've been talking about and writing about. People can find out in the books that I have. I do things like–I relate growing forages for example to the witch, witch trials in Salem.

Deborah 29:56
Wow. That's a, that's a good teaser. 

Dr. Lane 29:58
Well, yeah, considering the issue of no-till planting. It's in my second book, Book Two. I didn't just bring it up because of history, but because it actually has ramifications of what we're doing today. I don't mean the trials, but I mean what caused them.

Deborah 30:18
All right. Well, thank you. 

Dr. Lane 30:21
Thank you for asking. 

Deborah 30:22
Yeah, on that note, we'll end. And now, I really want to go read your second book.

Dr. Lane 30:27
There's the witch trials, and also I've worked John Lennon into it and some other things that are rather–they all have to do with forages. Trust me.

Deborah 30:36
Awesome. Thank you. 

Deborah 30:38
And that’s it for today’s show. If you haven’t already done so, be sure to hit the “subscribe” button so that you don’t miss any episodes. To see show notes, you can always visit ForTheLoveOfGoats.com and you can follow us on Facebook at Facebook.com/ LoveGoatsPodcast. See you again next time. Bye for now!