Breeding Champion Goats with Ed Jodlowski

Welcome to the world of showing goats! Have you ever dreamed of picking the perfect breeding pair that produces such a successful combination of genetics that you wind up with a doe that wins the title of Grand Champion at the National Show? It is likely that more than a few of us have, and the reality is, with the right education on goat conformation and breed standards coupled with an exacting eye, it is possible to produce that winning goat.

In today’s episode, we are talking to Ed Jodlowski, the breeder and owner of this year’s ADGA Grand National Champion doe. He is also the owner of Kickapoo Valley Dairy Goats and the current president of the American Dairy Goat Association. Having personal experience with all dairy goat breeds except Guernseys, Ed tells the story of the evolution of his own winning herd, and whether luck, skill, or both played into his success.

He also fills us in on the pros of being a judge in the show ring, confirms the significant benefit of attending goat shows now even if you aren’t yet ready to show your own goats, and shares his surprising plans for the future.

See full show notes here >> https://thriftyhomesteader.com/champion-goats/
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Transcript

Introduction 0:02
For the love of goats. We are talking about everything goat. Whether you’re a goat owner, a breeder, or just a fan of these wonderful creatures, we’ve got you covered. And now, here’s Deborah Niemann.

Deborah 00:17
Hello, everyone, and welcome to today's episode. This is gonna be so much fun, because I am talking to Ed Jodlowski, who you may know is the breeder and owner of the ADGA National Champion doe this year. He is the owner of Kickapoo Valley Dairy Goats. He's also the president of ADGA, and he's been a judge for decades. And this is really cool for me, because back when my daughters were at home, they wanted to show goats for a brief amount of time, and so we used to see Ed and his family–the human kids and the four-legged kids–at shows back in, back in the day. Welcome, Ed. 

Ed 01:00
Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be with you, and it's good to get a chance to catch up. 

Deborah 01:04
Yeah, it is. So it was really funny when I found out that you had the National Champion doe because I know this is not the first time you had a national champion doe. I think a few people know that I had LaManchas for a while, and I bought a LaMancha from you, who I think was, like, the granddaughter of a national champion doe.

Ed 01:24
Yes, you did. I–we had LaManchas back in the 90s. Because I had four boys, I didn't want them all showing Alpines. So we started raising the LaManchas, and, wow, we had success pretty quickly, and two national champions with the LaManchas, and they were very successful for us, and a lot of fun to raise. But once the boys started going their own ways with college, we made the decision to disperse and just go to one breed, because it was primarily going to be me and my youngest son at home, and so we didn't need to have multiple breeds. So that's our great foray into LaManchas, which was very successful. 

Deborah 02:10
Yeah, that's really cool. I know we loved the doe we got from you. And I kind of had the same experience. Once my girls were gone to college, I was like, Okay, I just, I'm only going to have one breed now, and the LaManchas–as cute as they are with their no-ears heads–they, unfortunately, were the ones that I decided to sell. So, tell us a little bit more, because you have been in goats practically forever. Like, seems like pretty much your whole life. Can you give us some background? Like, how did you get involved in goats? 

Ed 02:45
So I bought my first goat in 1981, and it was a doe kid at the Illinois State Fair. She was a purebred French Alpine, and I begged my parents to let me have a goat. We raised hogs at the time, and so we had raised some very successful Hampshire hogs that particular year. And my parents, I was the only child, so they gave in to me and let me buy this goat. Her name was Grand Champion El Wick Moon's Laura, and she's my first goat, my first permanent champion. Turned out to be a good one to start with. And so that was my beginning. And lo and behold, I just kind of went, basically, breeding goats for a while without having a purpose, until I became like a senior in high school in 1986 and we purchased a couple of more expensive bucks, and those gave me a little bit stronger stock. Then bought one from Wash–a buck from Washington that gave me really kind of my foundation, and have a couple of foundation does that are behind the pedigrees of most of my Alpines today. And so that's really, you know, how the whole thing started. Obviously, I wanted my kids to have goats and show goats too. And so it became part of our lives as a family. And we had the Alpines and LaManchas for years. Here and there, we–I remember we added a half Alpine, half Oberhasli doe in which I bred Alpine and had a Reserve National Junior Champion in Recorded Grades one year, but not really ever interested in having any other breeds. And once the boys got to a certain age, that's when we, as I said, went to just the Alpines, and then lo and behold, the Sable comes along. And that's another whole story, so.

Deborah 04:50
Yeah, I know. When I heard that you had won the National Championship, I was like, oh. And I just assumed it was going to be an Alpine. And then I saw that it was a Sable. And I was like, What? He has Sables? So how did the Sables wind up on your farm? 

Ed 05:07
Well, it's kind of a very ironic story in that I was judging the National Show in Colorado, and my son, Cameron, who is still into the goats and actually now raises Toggenburgs with his wife, had gone to the National Show with Julie Mathis, and in going to the National Show, he wanted to participate in showmanship and help people. And really, he was really into, like showing and talking with people. And he's a very social person, so, really enjoyed it. Well, some of his buddies thought it'd be funny if they put his name in the national raffle, and they put his name in for the Sable and for the Nigerian. And he didn't win one; he won them both. And so, that's how we got our first Sable. We also have the Nigerian. And actually, it's very funny, because we got them both, and we brought them home and showed them a little bit, and I was like, Well, they're both going to be dry next year because we don't have anything to breed them to. And we took them back to the National Show, which was in St. Paul that next year, and the, the Nigerian was Second Place Dry Yearling, and she was also the First Place Youth Doe for him. And so that was really kind of fun to have those Nigerians. And then the Sable was National Junior Champion. And I'm like, Well, now we gotta find a Sable to breed her too. Well, luckily, we live in a spot in the country where there are Sables available to us. So we took her over to the Fosters in Terre Haute, Indiana, and bred her. She freshened, and she was absolutely stunning as a two-year-old, finished her championship first show out, and then went on to win her class at the National Show, and then go on to be Senior Champion. So within the two years that we had her, she was the Junior National Champion, and then the Senior National Champion. And so, I was like, maybe we need to do these Sables. And I got, I did get really lucky. I did purchase a couple of other does, two from Klisse, one from Acres of Daisies. And we really had a lot of success with them. We had another two national champion Sables with those. So, some of our foundation does are all rooted in some national champions that we've had, but they were does that we had purchased. So when Lava won this year, it was very exciting, because she was really the first doe that I had bred, and she is actually a granddaughter of that first doe that we got. So it's, it's very fitting that she would go on and be the doe that she is. 

Deborah 07:54
Wow! What an incredible story. That is really interesting that you won those two goats in a, in a raffle.

Ed 08:05
Right, right. The Nigerian did not make, I mean, she we, we ended up actually losing her at about four years of age. But, you know, she did reproduce herself a little bit and gave us some, some kids, but not really ever an interest in breeding them. Sables look a little bit like Alpine so it's kind of like you don't know what you're gonna get when they kid. And so that was kind of fun to have those. But I also, I oftentimes would, would tell Cameron that the Sables kind of saved me, because I had been breeding Alpines for a long time. I kind of felt like I was in a rut, and the Sables gave me a new challenge. And so I purchased some nice bucks–bucks that were related actually to the first doe that we got, that I brought in from Washington. And I actually also brought in a sister of hers, and then ended up kind of crossing those goats. And in Sables, when you breed them, everything's a line breeding just about. So it was, it was very successful in terms of what we got, and very, very lucky. Now, I really think Sables are starting to become more popular, and I'm really feeling good about, like, the, the impact that we are having on the breed, because obviously my interest in Sables now is to produce the best ones that we can get. And they're being successful in terms of the show ring and milking, and we have great production records out of them. So it is very exciting to see the impact that we're working to have on the Sable breed. And likewise, I think that also helped me then to make my Alpines become more competitive again. And obviously, while we didn't have a national champion in Alpines, we did win two milking classes and had two does that were second place. So four does in the championship lineup, which was unheard of for us, and very exciting. And won the Dairy Herd and Best 3 Females and Get of Sire. And so, it was a very successful stint with our Alpines this year at the national show as well. 

Deborah 10:17
How many goats are you up to now? 

Ed 10:19
So I have approximately 40 total goats on my, in my herd, and that includes, I'm milking 21 which is a little higher than I like to be, but I just really had a difficult time making cuts this year because they were pretty strong across the board. And so that has been, you know, 21 milkers, three dry yearlings. I've got 12 kids and then five bucks that I have in the herd. So, it's right around 40 goats. 

Deborah 10:52
And what's the breakdown between the Alpines and the Sables? 

Ed 10:56
So it is, it is fairly close. I ran 12 milking Alpines this year with two dry yearlings, and then I have six kids. And then the Sables, I had nine milkers, one dry yearling and six kids. So I was able to wheedle down to–whittle down to six kids. And I think that I always feel like I can't believe I sold that many, but I really have a good market, especially for Sable kids now, and I've been placing them in such great homes that that's been exciting as well, that I can, I can sell a lot and keep just what I need for replacement animals.

Deborah 11:41
Cool. And let's talk a little bit about how, like you've progressed through the years too, because I mentioned earlier that you are also a judge. How did you–when did you decide to become a judge, and why? 

Ed 11:54
So I became a judge in the mid-90s, and I just–I really enjoyed seeing beautiful goats, and I thought it was a great opportunity for me to travel and see these beautiful goats. And I have had the opportunity now of judging just about everywhere in the United States except, and this is not a plug for me to get a judging assignment here, but I've not judged in North Dakota. I have judged just about everywhere else, but I would love to have the opportunity to someday judge there and get to see the goats there, because it's just nice to go to those different regions of the country and see the goats and see them kind of in the backdrop of where they live. Really love judging out in New England, especially in the fall. They have some beautiful shows out there.
 It's fun to judge in the South and see the different breeds and how they progressed. And Nigerians are very, very strong in the South. And then, like, of course, going out on the West Coast, you get to see a real plethora of these animals, a lot of them that are working animals coming out of these dairies. And so it's nice to get an opportunity. So that was really at the heart of why I wanted to become a judge. You also get a chance to meet people. And I think the other thing that happens is, as a breeder, you get to have animals that you can use as kind of a measuring stick for your own animals. I'm in, currently in the process of talking with a Sable breeder in California, a herd that I didn't know a lot about, but I had a chance to judge them this spring, and I saw a lot of really neat attributes that some of their does have, that I was like, Well, that might, that might work really well in my herd, and it'll be a little bit of an outcross for me. So she and I have been talking back and forth. She's been sending me pictures of some of her does, and it's just nice to get that opportunity to see really competitive goats. 

Deborah 14:00
Yeah, I always tell people that even if they don't want to show goats, it's a really great way to learn more about what goats are supposed to look like, because when you hear somebody say “an udder is well attached” or “not well attached,” that is not terribly self explanatory. If you don't know–if you're not looking at it and going, that's well attached, that's poorly attached. And that's the kind of stuff–one of the things I love about goat shows is the fact that the judges have to tell you why they're placing the goats the way they're placing them, so it really is an educational experience attending. And I would think becoming a judge would be even–that would be like attending goat shows would be like the bachelor's degree and becoming a goat judge would be like the master's degree. 

Ed 14:44
Yeah, I would agree with that. Because I, you know, I, after becoming a judge for many years, I have been a member of the Judge’s Training Committee, chair of that for a while, and I did a lot of pre-TCs and a lot of training conferences, and I would often tell people that judging is really not a matter of placing the animals, it's a matter of recognizing the most significant details that make those particular placings. And especially in really competitive shows. I just attended the Nebraska State Fair last week, where it was huge. Both my breeds, Sables and Alpines were huge, and they were very competitive. And it was very interesting to listen to the judges talk, especially when they got to the championship lineups, and they were talking about, like the, the minute differences between some of the does in terms of selecting the champions and reserves. And I think that that's so important, because you have to be able to recognize the significant differences that exist between those goats, and then recognize that, you know, in the scorecard, this is weighted this much. And it's not a matter of adding up points. It's truly a matter of looking and making sure that you can then, as you pointed out, make a clear designation of why one is placing over two and two over three and so on. 

Deborah 16:02
Yeah, and is there anything–can you think of how being a judge has affected your choices, in your breeding decisions, or even decisions to, like, keep a breed or eliminate a breed from your herd? 

Ed 16:18
So, I think that by being a judge, just having that opportunity, you know, to handle other animals at shows. And I can think of examples of–I had judged the national show in California, and the breeds that I happened to handle at that show were breeds that I didn't have. So they were Nubians, Recorded Grades, and Toggenburgs. And so it was great then to be able to watch some of the other shows and see some of the other animals. But luckily that year, I had the opportunity to go back a couple of weeks later after watching some of the other shows of breeds that I did raise and handle all the goats at the Sonoma County Fair in Santa Rosa. And that was very exciting, because I remember seeing this beautiful Alpine doe who had done well at the national show, and that was the goat that I thought: That needs to be the dam of my next herd sire. So I spent some time talking with the people about her, and I remember having my son look at the goat and feel the goat and say, This is really what we need to do. And so we were able to purchase the buck kid the following year and utilize him. I will preface that with–not every buck turns out well. He did not, but it gave me the opportunity of at least seeing that animal. And so I think that's the beauty of going to these bigger shows, because you get the opportunity to see and handle the goats, and those give you an opportunity to better your breeding program. Sables it's a little bit more difficult, because I travel a lot of places where I don't see a lot of Sables. Most of the big Sable shows happen here in the Midwest. And if there's a big Sable show, I'm probably showing in it. So, it's exciting. This year's National Show had some beautiful Sables in the ring. And so it's nice to look around at the does and then go back and look at them later on and recognize that maybe some of those were some animals that you wanted to maybe utilize in your breeding program. 

Deborah 18:25
Yeah. So, one other thing, let's talk a little bit about the National Show now. And like I said at the beginning, this is not your first National Champion. I know that you had one back in there, or a couple, you said, back in the early 2000s. A couple of your LaManchas were national champions. How exactly–I know this is, like, a really hard question–how exactly does one wind up breeding and eventually getting to the point where you have goats that are good enough to be national champions, or even just to do well at the National Show? 

Ed 19:00
Well, I'd like to think that there was a lot of thought in the breeding of the goat that won, because I remember very specifically I told you about the doe that I won in the raffle. I was also able to bring her sister into the herd, and when we went to the National Show in Harrisburg back in 2016, Akiaberry, who was the doe that we'd won in the raffle, was first place four-year-old. And her sister Mocha was the First Place Yearling. And I had this idea that I was going to cross the two of them, so I kept the buck kid out of Mocha back just to breed to Akiaberry's daughter,
 and make that breeding. And that was just an opportunity for me to line breed on some, some traits that I really thought would work well. And lo and behold, then Lava was born, and then, sadly, it–she didn't breed as the, as a yearling, so she was a dry yearling. But it was the pandemic year, so we went to one show, and she showed as a dry yearling, and she got her dry leg. And then when I freshened her the next year, I was like, Wow, she's beautiful. And she was First Place Two-Year-Old, and First Place Udder, and then she went on to be Reserve Best Udder as a first freshening two-year-old. She also, that year, won the Indiana State Fair Best in Show as a two-year-old first freshener. Pretty proud of that. When she got to be a three-year-old and a four-year-old, both years, she had very high lactations. Matter of fact, her, her three-year-old lactation, I believe her two-year-old lactation was somewhere around 3200 pounds, but her, her three-year-old lactation was 4000 pounds. So she was milking a lot. She had a little bout of mastitis. She was a little uneven. Both those years she was second at the National Show. So that's not that's not bad. And I think she was even Reserve Best Udder as a three-year-old. So then this year, she came back, and I will say she's not been milking quite as much. I think she's projected it right at 3000 pounds, but probably will be closer to 2800-2900 pounds, and she's been a little bit more even. Over the last couple of weeks, she started to let up a little bit, and she's recognizing the end of, the end of the season. But I think the important thing there is knowing that you have a goat that milks a lot, and getting her ready for the National Show was something that–I didn't show her prior to the National Show, but I did take her to a show with all the does, taped her up, pretended we were showing, just to give her an opportunity to bag and get a feel, feel for how long it would take her to udder because she's got such a large area of attachment. And so I would say that that's one of the things that I've really learned about being successful at the National Show is how to manage those goats. In the summer, I actually feed my does a little bit of extra corn, steamrolled corn is something that I treat them with, and they love it. There's a half a bag left, ladies, I said the other day, so enjoy it while it lasts. But, but I treat them with that. And then something that I do that other herds don't do, but I feed my, all the excess milk back to them, and it's about half milk, half water. But the does really love that, and especially traveling. Like I noticed, we did four state fairs in about two and a half weeks, and just having that extra milk helped maintain their body, no matter how many miles we were putting on them. And so all of those are elements that I think go into, you know, helping to make a National Champion in terms of how you're managing them as well. 

Deborah 22:56
Yeah, that is funny. What you said about feeding milk back to your does, because somebody I know recently bought a kid that was really underweight and hadn't had a bottle like in a month. And I said, She'll probably still take a bottle if you give it to her, and she's like, Well, will that be okay? And I said, I used to know somebody who showed when we did, who fed all of his excess milk to his adult does, and they were fine. So, it's funny that you said you don't know anybody else who does that, because you're the only person I've ever known who does it.
 
Ed 23:27
Yeah, you know, it's crazy, because I talk to other people and they're like, You're still pasteurizing milk? And I said, As long as I got it, it's getting pasteurized, and I've already started hoarding back some milk to be frozen for the winter as, as we slow down here, because we did, we did finish our show season last week, and so now we're starting to slow down a little bit. 

Deborah 23:55
Yeah, and you, obviously, with like 40–okay, you're not milking 40, you're milking 20 something– but you do get a lot of milk. Do you do anything with the milk other than feed it back to the does? 

Ed 24:06
We make the occasional ice cream. Other than that, it all goes back into the goats. And when I say occasional, it's like, you know, maybe once a month we make a little ice cream with it. But other than that, we're not milk drinkers. It's just my wife and I here now, so we're not milk drinkers, and we're not making any other products with it currently. 

Deborah 24:28
Okay, yeah, the–even just our few little Nigerians that were still milking kind of drive my husband crazy, because he feels like he has to make cheese out of all of it. So–or goat milk soap. We do make, we do make a lot of goat milk soap. So, I'm sure that a lot of people listening to this who haven't even started showing goats, or maybe have only briefly started showing think or realize that it is not like you don't just buy goats today and then have a champion tomorrow. Whether it's, it's at a low local show or the Nationals. So, like, realistically, if somebody gets started with goats, because there's a lot involved. Like, I don't know, I think it's pretty unusual first for you to be able to buy a goat that's, that winds up being the National Champion. Yeah. I mean, you talked about, like, your very intentional breeding of two excellent goats to create this year's national champion. Can you talk a little more about that aspect? 

Ed 25:29
Well, I think when you were talking about the idea of what to do in starting to get where you're going with show ring success, and I look back on it, and I talked about that first goat I had. I had no idea what I was doing with that first goat. And then, I suddenly thought I wanted to have other breeds. And so I remember, you know, we had a Toggenburg for a little while, and then we had a foray into Saanens. And actually we had the Reserve National Junior Champion Saanen in 1989, which very few people remember Kickapoo Valley Saanens. But it was always about finding that–those animals that I felt like had the most ideal characteristics and that would help make a breeding to produce those. But I think that one of the things that I recognized over the years is that you're not going to be successful with every animal you buy. I do believe in the fact that you have to bring in some outside animals now and then. So I would say that, that is also helps propel where I am with my Alpines. A couple of years ago, we didn't have a doe in a particular age class, and I was looking at a herd I was going to buy a buck from, and we had talked back and forth. Lo and behold, he had a three-year-old doe for sale, and I was actually going to be going not too far from where he was. And I said, I want her. And I said, Then I'll keep the buck kid that she has to be my herd sire. And she was a doe that had appraised high and she had shown well, and we brought her to our herd, and she has just blossomed here. She did have a doe kid that year, and the person that I got it from didn't have very many doe kids. I needed a buck kid, so we actually ended up swapping, and I got a different buck from him, but that doe has, has gone on to be very successful in the show ring. She appraised excellent 93. She's been First in the Seven and Older Class and was Reserve National Champion. A doe that I purchased. Again, what did I see in her? I just saw a doe that had a lot of qualities that I wanted to put into my breed. Real clean front end, beautiful feet and legs, and she's been able to do that with her daughters and now granddaughters and so that helps strengthen, you know, the degree of where my Alpines are going. And it was sort of the same way with, with the Sables in terms of the does that we purchased. We just purchased out of animals that we felt like were very strong and that they would give us, you know, a nice connection to the, the animals that we already had. And so I have been through, as I said, just about every breed. We did have a Nubian for a while. Didn't really ever get very far with breeding that Nubian. I think we actually ended up breeding a LaMancha. We had some Recorded Grades out of it, and but, I mean, we've, we've run the gamut, I think, of having every breed except for, for having any, any Guernseys. So that that would be something that not everybody knows about our herd, that we, we've tried it, but not as successfully as we've been with the Alpines, the LaManchas, and the Sables.

Deborah 28:58
So obviously, and you have been so successful with all of that, and is there anything that you're thinking of doing differently or changing in the future?

Ed 29:06
Well, that's a great question. So I've retired in my career as an educator, so I get my fix still by subbing. And I really had thought that since it's just me, I really needed to slow down and go to one breed, and it's really hard to do, but a more, more comfortable number than milking 21. And you know, I took 37 goats, loaded them all on the trailer, and went to Wisconsin by myself, And my son and his wife were there to help me unload the goats and help me show the goats and everything, but then I loaded the goats back up and went to the Illinois State Fair. It's all by myself. And I did have help from other people that were there that you know, rushed over to help me unload the goats, and that was great. Went to, went to the Indiana State Fair by myself.
 Again, people came and helped me get unloaded. But it's, it's, I've realized that it's very hard to do by yourself, and it would be nice to have a little bit more manageable number. I'd love to just have one breed. And everybody says to me, but Ed, what breed would it be? I say, I don't know, but it would more than likely be the Alpines. They were my first breed. They were my first love. I'm not ready to get rid of the Sables yet. So the only thing that could happen is if I made a decision to just cut back the numbers in one particular breed and just keep a few. And I've already, in my mind, kind of made some decisions about, Well, next year, when these goats freshen, and I've got my replacement does, I might be able to move this goat out, and this goat out, and some of the older does. And, you know, I've got a dairy that will take my excess does next year, so that's always, that's always positive. And they are probably very functional goats, yet they just are not going to be, you know, the most, the very most competitive does for the show ring, and they will help me to achieve that more manageable number. Last year, I milked 16, and that was kind of a nice number, but I really wonder what 14 would be like. That'd be seven less than now. I did get 10 milk stands this year, so I could milk 10 at a time, and that's been very nice. But I'm thinking to myself, What would it be like with seven? Huh? We'll have to see. But I, you know, everybody, especially my son, laughs at me and says, You can do it, Dad. And I go, Yeah, I could, but I have to make some, some difficult cuts to do that. 

Deborah 31:42
Yeah, exactly that's–I've been saying, I need to re–we need to reduce our numbers. I've been saying that for 10 years, and we haven't been able to get down below about 15 does. And it seems like whenever I get down, then it was like, Oh no. This year I've got like, three or four doe kids that I just have to keep 

Ed 32:02
Right, right. It's always that way. My, my wife isn't retired yet, and she says when she retires, then it's going to be time to really scale back, because she loves to travel, and she wants to do that, and so we're going to do a little traveling. And it's not that we haven't been able to travel, but we always travel in the off season, you know, like when the goats are dry, so we're we're doing Cancun at Christmas time and things like that, and she wants to be able to go. A couple of, a couple of years ago, we had a foreign exchange student from Poland, and right after the National Show, we went over there for two weeks, and it was so hard for me to leave my goats, you know, in the hands of somebody else before the final shows of the year, but we did it, and it worked out fine. This year, I didn't go to one of the shows that I typically go to after Labor Day, because we're getting ready to go to Europe again for two weeks, and we're going to do a tour of the Mediterranean. And I like doing those things, and so I have to just make some difficult decisions in my life, and maybe just having a few goats would, would, would, you know, still fill my void, but allow me to, you know, satisfy her needs as well. 

Deborah 33:25
Yeah, I know I recently heard of some people who've had goats for like, 20 plus years and sold them all. And I really am asking myself, How do they do that? It seems like it would be really challenging.

Ed 33:38
I agree. I can't imagine, you know, getting up in the morning and not having something to do. You know, that's, that's what I'm so used to. My, my morning ritual is, you get up, you go out, and, you know, you take your chores. And I can't imagine not having that, so. 

Deborah 33:55
Well, this has been so much fun, um, catching up with you and learning more about your herd and everything, and I think everyone's going to really enjoy hearing about all this. Thanks for joining us today. 

Ed 34:09
Well, I appreciate you having me, and again, I, I really enjoy talking about goats, and so people can always reach out and talk to me about goats, or if you have a question about ADGA, certainly I can help people to answer questions about the American Dairy Goat Association. We've got our big convention coming up here in a few weeks in Wisconsin, so hopefully we'll get a chance to visit with some people there. 

Deborah 34:37
Yeah, definitely, I'm planning to go to that so–because it's just three hours up the road, so. Yeah, they're fabulous. Well, I will see you there then, and thanks so much for joining us today. 

Ed 34:48
Thank you. 


Deborah 34:49
And that’s it for today’s show. If you haven’t already done so, be sure to hit the “subscribe” button so that you don’t miss any episodes. To see show notes, you can always visit ForTheLoveOfGoats.com and you can follow us on Facebook at Facebook.com/LoveGoatsPodcast. See you again next time. Bye for now!