[00:00:00] we hit record on a whim and ended up with pure podcast gold. Join our impromptu discussion. where we reveal secrets on how you can stand out at a Writers Conference.
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[00:00:22] Today I have a special and somewhat unplanned episode for you. You know how sometimes the best conversations happen when you least expect them? Well, that's exactly what happened when I sat down to talk to my fellow faculty member, Now, Larry and I both just got back from teaching at the Blue Ridge Mountains Christian Writers Conference.
[00:00:43] And we sat at a table next to each other, but we never actually had a chance to connect. So we decided, we'd sit down and talk on Zoom after the conference. But our chat turned into a goldmine of insights and advice for writers.
[00:00:58] particularly on how to stand out at a writer's conference and make yourself memorable to faculty members like us after the fact.
[00:01:06] Now if you don't know who Larry is, you can read more about him. He is a pro in every sense of the word. You're going to love him as much as I do and I hope that you enjoy this episode as much as we did.
[00:01:19] Zena Dell Lowe: Good to see you. Yay.
[00:01:22] Larry Leech: Yeah. So how are things with you since the conference?
[00:01:29] Zena Dell Lowe: Busy, like coming back from those things is always, is like, oh my gosh, how did, how come I have so much to do? It's crazy.
[00:01:38] Larry Leech: I just told my wife two hours ago, I don't ever remember being this busy after a conference.
[00:01:44] Zena Dell Lowe: Really? Why are you so busy?
[00:01:47] Larry Leech: I think part of it is I agreed to let, um, people sign up for Zoom calls after.
[00:01:53] Zena Dell Lowe: I heard you doing that. And, and I, because you did that, I agreed to do the same thing
[00:01:58] Larry Leech: How many did, how many did you get?
[00:02:00] Zena Dell Lowe: I didn't get as many as you. I think I, I only have like three people.
[00:02:05] Larry Leech: See, I thought I would get five or six. I got
[00:02:09] Zena Dell Lowe: 18.
[00:02:13] Larry Leech: I know Wendy said, don't ever do that again. I'm like, I hate to not offer it, but I think I will put a cap on it in the future.
[00:02:22] Zena Dell Lowe: Yeah, yeah, you have to. You have to.
[00:02:26] Larry Leech: But it's, it's good stuff. I mean, are you getting any
[00:02:29] Zena Dell Lowe: good stuff out of it?
[00:02:31] Larry Leech: Um, a couple. I've requested a couple, um, proposals and, um, a couple people aren't ready.
[00:02:41] like the woman I met with this morning, she really needs a writing coach. So I gave her a list of people who were coaches and do you coach?
[00:02:50] Zena Dell Lowe: I do.
[00:02:52] Larry Leech: Okay. I'll follow up with her and put your name. So, cause I gave her about five or six people.
[00:03:00] we, we throw people back and forth to each other all the time.
[00:03:06] Zena Dell Lowe: Yeah, well, and you should, because that's the whole thing, right? This it's always about making sure that they're getting the best quality. That's the thing that I like about a lot of the people that are in my circle in these conferences is I feel like I could refer them to anybody, any one of those people, and they're going to get a good, they're going to get a good thing.
[00:03:28] Larry Leech: Yeah. And I always tell people, you know what, you need to find someone that you feel comfortable with. I mean, even people that paid for a mentoring session with me, as they know, like coach and I'm like, okay, you need to talk to these four people, five people work with someone that you feel you have a great connection with because you have to trust them and they have to trust you.
[00:03:54] It doesn't have to be me and that's fine. I mean, if you want to work with Cindy, you know, that's okay. It's not going to hurt my feelings. You need to be comfortable with your coach.
[00:04:04] Zena Dell Lowe: That's how I feel.
[00:04:05] And that's the most important piece of it. And somebody's style, you know, they can be different. And I find that it's actually more collaborative than people think the whole writing process, because like, for example, I just finished coaching a gal and I basically took her as far as I could take her.
[00:04:24] And then I handed her off to somebody else that is now coaching her, uh, that I really trust. And so the idea is that we can't get so hung up on this and try to hold on to people ourselves. It's really about what's best for them. And sometimes, you know, they've, they've gone the distance with what we can offer them for their project.
[00:04:47] Larry Leech: And, you know, I'm sure you're like this too, but I looked around the room, God, it was two weeks ago. It's hard to believe, isn't it? And I'm like, I've known that person for 25 years. That person and that person used to come to my home for a fiction writing group. I've known them for 20 some years. I've known that person 18.
[00:05:08] I mean, it was, it's. It's fun to do that kind of stuff with friends and that kind of stuff, you know, doing conferences and getting together because sometimes that's the only time we see each other, but I just love doing this with friends.
[00:05:24] Zena Dell Lowe: I do too. And I'll tell you, I had an Epiphany, I guess it was a number of years ago now, not that many years ago, maybe only eight Years, because I had always that's why like you and I we've never actually really Sat down and talked because, and part of that is because we're both busy at conferences, but the other part of it, to be honest with you, this is total transparency here is that I realized I had a false belief.
[00:05:56] And that false belief was that I didn't actually, I wasn't really part of the group that I was on the outside because I was a film, I was a filmmaker and a screenwriter. And so I didn't really fit in. And that, Those people, the publishing world, you know, they don't really want to have anything to do with me and nobody really likes me.
[00:06:15] You know, I'm just here to teach. And I mean, I didn't realize, right.
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[00:06:22] Zena Dell Lowe: I mean, you know, and I might be corrupting them because I'm in filming, I'm in Hollywood. So they all have a, you know, predisposed view of me, which is probably accurate. No. Um, but anyway, I realized I had this. This sort of perspective that made me keep my distance from other people.
[00:06:44] But I didn't know that I even had that. Does that make sense? Like it was in my subconscious and here's how I figured out that I was doing that. I, one of the people, and I just absolutely love her and I've told her this story, so I think she'd be okay with me sharing it. I, it was Edie Melson. I didn't think Edie liked me.
[00:07:09] I always got this very distant vibe from her a very cold vibe And I thought she hated me. In fact, I just thought she probably couldn't stand me and very seldom at these writers conferences Do we get a chance to go and see other people's sessions, you know, we just don't but I had a break This is at the Florida Christian Writers Conference You know, maybe eight years ago and I had a break where I could go Watch somebody else's session, which I like to do if I can.
[00:07:39] So I looked through the schedule and the one person who was teaching something that I wanted to learn more about was Edie Nelson and she was teaching on world building, but I was a little late because I had an appointment finish up and it just turned out I didn't have any more appointments. So I thought, well, I'm going to go.
[00:07:56] So I got into her class a little late. She was already teaching and here's what happened. She all of a sudden looked up, saw me come in and she went, Oh my gosh, you're coming to my class. Oh, I just got nervous. Okay. Okay. It's okay. We're just going to keep on going.
[00:08:14] And then she said that out loud.
[00:08:16] Yeah. She said it out loud.
[00:08:18] Oh, wow.
[00:08:19] And I went, what? Oh, it's not that she doesn't like me. It's that I am in a different world. And so there's some unfamiliarity and she actually does like me, but she's nervous about me too. I mean, she intimidated me because I saw her as being so hugely successful and so amazing. And so she was mutually intimidated by me, I guess.
[00:08:47] And that was a paradigm shift. All of a sudden I'm like, wait a minute, I've been thinking about this all wrong.
[00:08:54] Yeah. I get it. I've been there.
[00:08:59] Yeah.
[00:09:01] Larry Leech: I'm the guy on faculty who rarely has any books in a bookstore because most of my writing has been ghost writing that I don't have my name on the book. So I don't bring them.
[00:09:15] Zena Dell Lowe: Yeah. No, I get it. I really do Well, and i've been on the other side of it too where i've had people come up to me and be like, oh my gosh Dean, it's so good to see you again or something like that And I have no clue who the person is No,
[00:09:30] Larry Leech: I hate when that happens Oh my gosh, it happens at conferences, people come up and their badge and I don't know who they are.
[00:09:39] The worst ever happened to me was I was at the class writers conference in Albuquerque one year. When it was held in the old downtown area, we were at a, um, we were at a hotel that year, it was the year after we left the ghost ranch, this woman. I'm, I'm talking with Linda Gilden and Linda and I are fully engaged in a conversation.
[00:10:04] This woman comes walking, Hey, Larry, what's going on? How you doing? It's good to see you. It's been kept talking and I'm being polite and all that. Right up in the elevator. The three of us, this woman gets off and this was before zoo. This is before we use zoom. I'm like, Oh my gosh, that is one of my coaching clients.
[00:10:26] Zena Dell Lowe: Wow. So it wasn't just a, somebody that you'd met once before it's we're talking to somebody. Yeah. So that's what happened to me, even at this last conference, uh, you know, where we were at Blue Ridge together, this gal came up to me and the line, we were in the line and, and somebody else had said, Oh, do you guys know each other?
[00:10:48] And I was just about to say, not really. And she jumps in and says, Oh yeah, we've been roommates together. We had a ball. And I'm like, when was that? I have no recollection. I don't remember anything about that experience. I have no recollection, but I think. And this is where, you know, I have to be a little honest with myself.
[00:11:15] I think sometimes I get so absorbed in my own world that it's, it's all temporarily, it's going into temporary memory and not permanent memory. And that's a problem. I need to be more present and more, um, not thinking, you know, about other things while I'm talking to people.
[00:11:35] Larry Leech: Well, and I don't know about you, but it's gotten to the point with me, and I'm certainly not complaining.
[00:11:41] I've done over 120 conferences now. They all blur together, particularly the last five years. They all blur together. I just People will send me emails and say, Hey, you requested this material at such and such conference. And, you know, we all tell them to give us a reminder and I'll sit there and look at it and think, I don't even remember sitting across from this person.
[00:12:06] And I feel horrible that I don't remember anymore.
[00:12:11] Zena Dell Lowe: Well, I don't even remember after that most recent conference. You know what I'm saying? Like, forget about a conference, you know, maybe last year that I met somebody at, I mean, I'll finish one in a week later, they'll be like, Oh, I had such a great time talking to you at the conference.
[00:12:28] And I'll be like, I don't remember what we talked about. You have to, you have to remind me, you have to walk me through, because they, they remember, but we talked to so many people.
[00:12:40] Larry Leech: I still have my list from the conference. You probably can't see it. And I went through it the other day and I'm like, what? I don't remember that person.
[00:12:48] Zena Dell Lowe: It's hard. It's hard. So actually that would be a good question. Like how, what, what do you think, what could conferees do to make themselves more memorable? I mean, I guess you can't really try to be more memorable because that is awkward, but what would help?
[00:13:09] Larry Leech: In some ways they would have to go against the norm.
[00:13:12] When I was involved with the Florida Writers Association, a general market conference in Florida, there was a, a guy, his name was Ben Hale. He wore a three piece suit every day. And I asked him about it one time, I said, don't you see, I mean, it's Florida, I mean, there's people in floppies and shorts. Okay.
[00:13:33] So why do you wear three? He said, so people will remember me. So I mean, you could go to an, I do, I mean, I haven't done one of those conferences and probably six or seven years, but yes, I will always remember that. Um, I don't know. I told Wendy what I want to do starting the next conference that I do in October.
[00:13:57] I'm going to keep a notebook and I'm going to make a note of everyone that I meet with. Okay. Bye. You know, just jot a couple words. So after the fact that I will remember, I will be better remembering something about them.
[00:14:14] Zena Dell Lowe: Well, that's good. That would be a better thing for us to do is to keep a log and try to jot that down.
[00:14:20] But I'm thinking though, this is actually a great question for any of us because we're all, we're inevitably going to be on the other side of it at some point too, where we're meeting with somebody that's a bigger fish than us. And how do we make ourselves memorable? And we can't all just try to wear something goofy or something different.
[00:14:38] Or do, you know, we can't like show up in a witch's costume just so they remember us. They might think we're crazy. So, I'm just trying to think this through.
[00:14:47] Larry Leech: so here's here's my my answer to the question like so that people don't feel like they have to a wear something weird or be weird to get attention or be So they don't feel like they have to buy gifts or do something big for the other person.
[00:15:04] Zena Dell Lowe: I do typically Remember people who engage with me in story. It's the same thing, right? Like story. If somebody tells me a story about themselves that resonates with me, I'll typically remember that person. Yeah. So there's that. And then what I think they need to do after the conference,
[00:15:27] Now before you get to see the rest of my conversation with Larry, we're going to take a moment to hear from our sponsors, me. The Storyteller's Mission.
[00:15:36] And I want to remind you that if you are actually interested in becoming the best possible writer you can become, then we have a course that is currently available for you. It's called Hollywood Story Structure Made Easy. It's everything you need to know about story structure.
[00:15:51] Now, Larry refers to himself as a pantser, but he also said that he writes a treatment, or he writes some sort of outline that helps him at least know where he's going in the story, and then he sees where the characters want to take it. Well, that's called fleshing out your story.
[00:16:08] There are certain markers you have to hit. To that end, I have created a video on the seven Deadly plot points. These are the seven things, the seven markers you have to hit in your story in order to have a good story. Just click on the link provided and you can watch the free training and then you can learn more about my bigger course on the subject, Hollywood Story Structure Made Easy.
[00:16:32] Zena Dell Lowe: I look forward to seeing you there. Okay, back to the show.what I think they need to do after the conference,
[00:16:37] it's appropriate then to follow up with them by email and say, Hey, I'm the gal that you sat with at dinner. And we got into that conversation about Indian rituals in the South. And I told you the story about my grandfather who bought land from the native Americans.
[00:16:58] in South Dakota, and then had the tribe come after him to try to get it back. Like literally reminding me of the details of our interaction, jarring that. will be really helpful.
[00:17:13] Larry Leech: Yeah. I mean, it's just some of them get it when you tell them that some of them don't, because I told pretty much everyone, when you send me an email, you remind me of what we talked about. And they all would see my sheet. I said, you see this sheet. I'm not, I won't remember everyone unless you jog my memory.
[00:17:32] Well, some people will send a small paragraph, couple sentences. One guy wrote like a full synopsis.
[00:17:42] Zena Dell Lowe: You don't want
[00:17:43] Larry Leech: that either. It was a thousand words. But, you know, that is a very good question that you ask. How, how can they, separate themselves from the pack because that's part of what they need to do anyway with their message.
[00:17:57] So I think it comes down to personality.
[00:17:59] Zena Dell Lowe: Yeah, it does. And yet there are specific things that you can craft and cultivate. Yeah. But personality is a big part of it. And then being yourself, but then reminding the person of the self that you are. So you don't want to perform and try to be something you're not just so you stand out.
[00:18:20] Larry Leech: Yeah. Or, you know, that and, you know, a connection. One of the people that I had a call with this week, we're both from, she lives in Pittsburgh. I was raised in the area. So immediately we spent 10 minutes talking about Pittsburgh,
[00:18:37] Zena Dell Lowe: Hmm. But you know, these are things that I've been thinking about the real question is how do you Get yourself noticed in this sea of other people and it can't be a gimmick
[00:18:53] Larry Leech: No,
[00:18:53] Zena Dell Lowe: all right, I'm thinking through this. As we're talking like, you know, we're solving the problem as we're, we're thinking about it. But when I go to a conference, there's all those people, they all want to talk to me.
[00:19:06] You can't be weird to stand out because now I just think you're crazy and I want to avoid you. So it triggers the fear center of my brain. If you're too weird, you also don't want to fake it and be something you're not because really it is about your essence. That's actually your brand is who you actually are.
[00:19:25] So you have to lean into that. But you also can't be limited by who you are. Meaning if you're a shy person, you have to actually take action to overcome that, to make yourself known in some way. Not that you suddenly become the most outgoing person at the party, but rather. That you don't let the shyness or the fear of it hold you back and you go up to the person you want to talk to and you introduce yourself.
[00:19:56] But I also think along with that, something that makes, that is helpful to me and I'm sure to everybody. If they know something about you, like there's nothing that drives me more bonkers. Well, that's not true. I'm speaking in hyperbole. There's lots of things that drive me bonkers, but one of the things that drive me bonkers Is when somebody comes up to me saying, Oh, I want to talk to you about what you, you know, this or that or this or that.
[00:20:26] But it turns out they've never listened to a podcast episode. They don't know what I'm about. They don't know what kind of work I'm even interested in. They don't know anything about me. So then I feel like they're just using me or they're just being lazy. And that actually makes them stand out in a negative way.
[00:20:45] But someone who comes up to me and says, Hey, I listened to such and such podcast episode. And it really spoke to me. And there can be specific, you know, it really spoke to me in this particular area. And that's why I wanted to come and talk to you because you really drilled home this thing about visual images.
[00:21:04] And I think maybe I'm lacking in that. But I feel like I've got a really great story. Could I pitch that to you? And maybe we could brainstorm some ideas on how I could make it more visual. Now, all of a sudden I am predisposed to want to help them because they told me my material resonates with them.
[00:21:21] They're coming at me asking for my insight and wisdom and who doesn't feel flattered by that. And they're also not saying they're not trying to sell themselves to me. Even if they're saying, well, would you know, would it be possible for you? Would you mind taking a minute to just read this and giving them feedback?
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