S05E10 - Stuart McKenzie (Road2Resilience) pt4

In part 4/5  of the Road2Resilience theme the episode navigates through the complex terrain of grief, loss, and resilience, expertly guided by hosts Andy Fermo and Stu McKenzie. They draw parallels between resilience and grief, highlighting how they are two sides of the same coin. The discussion delves into the various emotional landscapes individuals traverse when dealing with loss, from the avoidance marshes to the anger and guilt mudflats. Through insightful analogies, such as comparing grief to a journey through a map, the hosts offer a nuanced perspective on coping mechanisms and the importance of awareness in the healing process.

They emphasise the significance of acknowledging one's emotional state and seeking help when needed, illustrating how awareness serves as the compass on the journey towards healing. The conversation touches upon post-traumatic growth as a beacon of hope, showcasing how individuals can emerge from loss with deeper interpersonal relationships, newfound purpose, and increased personal strength.

Despite the heavy subject matter, Andy and Stu infuse the dialogue with moments of levity, underscoring the importance of finding lightness amidst darkness. They conclude with a message of resilience, encouraging listeners to embrace the journey, honour their grief, and strive towards wholeness.

Contact -  Stuart McKenzie
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Transcript

Claire Fermo: 0:04

Welcome to invisible injuries podcast, aimed at bettering the well being and mental health veterans, first responders in their immediate support experiencing post traumatic stress. By sharing the stories of the lived experiences of our peers, or support staff and the clinicians, it's our aim to make sure we can have a meaningful connection with our audience, and give them the ideas for their own self care plan. If you do like what you're hearing, subscribe to the channel and share it with your friends. Lastly, these stories may be a trigger for your post traumatic stress. If your PTSD is triggered, we have links to support in the description. Or if it's immediate, please call lifeline on 1311 14. Here's your host, Andy fermo.

Andy Fermo: 1:02

Today, everyone, you're with your host, Andy fermo. And welcome back to another episode of the invisible injuries podcast. And joining me today, continuing on from our map of resilience. Our theme this time is a registered psychologist, Stuart Mackenzie. So thank you for joining me on the show again, me My pleasure. And so a little bit of a warning with this one. A bit of a trigger warning, we are going to be talking about suicide, and how it's affected people who are those who are left behind after a suicide in this first portion of the podcast. So a bit of a trigger warning. There's a bit heavier content, but I think it gives the map of resilience context about what we're talking about. doesn't assume yes, it does. Absolutely. So um, just to recap what we talked about, do you want to just take us through a summary of what we covered off in the last few episodes? Yeah,

Stu McKenzie: 2:01

I would, I will. So basically, we've introduced this unleash your inner strength, which is this idea of building resilience. Yes. And so life doesn't come with a map. But Rosalind Schneider, as I said, who wrote who wrote the book, Journey to the centre of your life, she was the author of the original map of grief and loss. And in some respects, it is a psychological landscape. And it does give us a sense of journeying. And the life is a journey when we go through grief and loss. But the thing about a map is, it's only good. If you know where you are. In relation. Yes, you have to be able to identify where you are on a map in order to get moving. Again, that's true for any hiking expedition or driving expedition. Absolutely. If you can't identify where you are, then the maps useless or

Andy Fermo: 2:59

where you're wanting to go. Yeah, and how to get there. Yes. The map could give you all sorts of information. And, you know, if we respect tracking from that, for quick moments do like in the military, you know, well, a Maps defined as you know, well, let me see if I can remember, this is a geographical representation of a portion of the Earth's surface to scale that depicts natural and manmade features you right, so and so that's a part of it. I think it's not quite verbatim, but you get the thing is, and one of the other things that we spoke about last year, was the term getting geographically embarrassed. Yeah, I can't. So if you're lost, not lost, geographically embarrassed, is might might be the term you know, are a bit more of a PC work these days about finding it. So what you're talking about is knowing where you are, knowing where we can be going, and then also the map to get there, you know, and then this map of grief and loss, what did we speak to? In the last episode? Well, we

Stu McKenzie: 4:01

began with relationship highway, and we said that life is built on the foundation of quality relationships. Yes, those relationships can be with other people, with our family, with our friends, with our things, with their cars, with their houses, with their gardens with our pets, but most importantly, in this map, it's our relationship with ourselves, our values, our beliefs, our understanding of ourselves. You know, Socrates said 2000 years ago, know thyself, and the wisdom of that is never is not ever going to be lost in the human endeavour in being human. And knowing ourselves is an is an outstanding investment. And it's an investment in our ability to navigate our way through loss and through things that come along and knock us over in life. grief and loss moments. Well, that's

Andy Fermo: 5:02

right. And just and just speaking with that, you know, the Know thyself. You know, it's one of those ones when we're talking about grief and loss. And this is in the last few episodes, no one ever really wants to talk about grief and loss until it's happening. And then they get hit with a double whammy. It's like a left right punches. Yes, it is. And because one they're having to deal with the trauma. And then two is they're having to educate themselves. Yeah.

Stu McKenzie: 5:26

And there's no escaping the process of grief. And that grief redefines who we are, there's no escaping that there's no, there's no therapy, there's no, that's going to fix you, there's, it's not going to fix you. But at least having a sense of where you are in the hope that you will continue to grow, your life will continue to grow around this grief. And that there is a landscape and and map that gives you the direction and an understanding of what might be coming next, who knows when that might come. And the story that I'm going to share with you this morning really exemplifies that. And that power of of grief. So we talked about relationship highway, the importance of your relationship with us with ourselves, then we talked about the voluntary off ramp, and how when we have some agency in change and loss, the part of the swamp is not so deep, we sort of trudge through it and continue on our way through the map. And that's the story of life. Life is constantly changing. We're constantly changing our relationship with people with things with ourselves, we're growing all the time. And then particularly, we spoke about catastrophe bridge, and they're the unexpected. They're the kind of losses that come along, in an unexpected way. And we spoke about the simple or the single event, we spoke about the complex events of grief. And we spoke about the cumulative events of grief and how the cumulative ones where you don't even know you're in the swamp of feelings, but you're slowly sinking. That's the most difficult if you like or insidious, I think was the word we use? Yes. But then then we talk. So that's really where we got to in our first three episodes. And in a bit of a way, starting in this fourth episode, I want to just take us back into that swamp for a moment just to honour the grief and loss part, of course, work. Yes. And it's a little bit heavy. So the story I'd like to tell you is about a friend that I went to school with a school classmate. And he had a tragic incident where his son committed suicide at the age of 17 or 18. And he, we spoke about emotion and the importance of motion in motion. Yes. And he used Facebook as a way to just put into words what was going on? And so in that respect, it's kind of in the

Andy Fermo: 8:04

public's eye, like a public journal. Yeah. Of his journey. Yeah. Right. So he's trying to be using it using that social media platform for a for, you know, purpose, therapeutic purposes. Yeah, but also putting it out there so that you actually, you know, when you when you vocalise something, or you write something down, and it's in a public domain, it makes you accountable for what you're saying, yeah, in a respect,

Stu McKenzie: 8:28

and it's incredibly vulnerable and incredibly raw. And in that respects, in that respect, it draws support to you. Yeah, whereas when you get into those anger, which we won't go too far into, but when you get into anger, and it pushes people away, you know what I mean? It doesn't draw people to you. And that's, that's the trap of that particular right? Part of the journey. So he

Andy Fermo: 8:52

Yes, he used he used the platform. And, yeah, so what's the what was it about doing all

Stu McKenzie: 9:00

what he did was he tracked he I tracked over time, just his journey over 18 months, really, there was lots of posts, but I've just picked out some to share with you because I think he's, he's just done such a powerful piece of work in terms of putting his the emotion of grief and what it feels like into words. Okay,

Andy Fermo: 9:23

and so just before we continue on with this, can I ask you, you know, you said that you trapped, you attract a mate. An incident has happened to me. And this is as some of our audience an incident may have happened to the to a mate or a former colleague, where you know, the families there's been a suicide and then you as a friend of this mate with this, this tragic things happen to what was it that picture to follow to follow the journey?

Stu McKenzie: 9:50

I think it was because I was doing the work on this map, and I did it I emailed at some point. Yes, after, you know, because you're not processing anything for a while. Oh, no. But at some point, I emailed him this and I just said, you know, I've been because he was more of a classmate, random mate, if you like. But I did get in contact with him. And I said, Look, this is some work that I've been doing. And I just like to share it with you. And I can't even say that I got, you know, whether he processed it or whether it because there's a timeliness about the sort of support we give people.

Andy Fermo: 10:25

But I think also what you're saying, though, is it brings people together. So sometimes when you actually have this out in the ether, and then you reached out to him. So reaching out from someone there is going well, that's almost like a subliminal thing and of support. You said that this these things can bring people together. And they can come together in many different ways. Yeah,

Stu McKenzie: 10:43

so it's right, he would have had his he would have had his family and close family wrap around him. And then on the other side of the country, because he was courageous enough, yes. To be open in his grave. Yeah. And I think there's a lot that we can learn from his courage. Even the words that he says, which we'll go through, you know, so he draws so he's even drawn support him from all around the international Nash, whatever, yes, friends, people that are connected, he only has 96 Facebook friends, so it's not like yes, he's a prolific,

Andy Fermo: 11:19

no, but that's why I think the numbers are really insignificant in regards to what what the impact is, in that particular person's sphere, isn't it really, and what's meaningful for them rather have one quality rating or something that have people willing to reach out, which meant you reached out right, so? Okay, well, if

Stu McKenzie: 11:38

this would be just a little bit of a journey that we're gonna go on now. It is around suicide, and really the, the resultant or the consequential effects of that the ripple effects of that on the people that he said. So he said, The sun may be shining and the birds may be chirping, but pain and despair is all I feel. It takes every ounce of drive I can muster to just get started with the day's work. The waves of grief hasn't haven't lost strength or frequency. They hit so hard. I feel I'm being torn in half, and all but crumpled to the ground. At times, I almost pass out. I can't breathe. I get lightheaded. My chest feels tight. There seems no end to this misery. Life is no more than an existence right now. I try to be there for family, but all they get is a broken man. So that's the first post and then he says some six seven weeks later. I have dealt with grief before. But losing dad was extremely difficult for me. Working on his profit property. I talked and worked with him almost every day. Watching him deteriorate over the years was heartbreaking. But that's just life. That's old age. It's hard. But somehow you still function and you get through. Losing a healthy, intelligent caring son, who had a great future planned out to suicide is exponentially harder. The shock the horror, the anguish is unbearable. I live in a constant state of gut wrenching pain and regret regrets. What if you find Lee's life has lost its appeal? Nothing wants to enjoy it interests me in the slightest food, not interested. Going for a walk? Not interested. Music triggers grief TV, turn it off. It's beyond annoying. Talking to people. I have nothing on my mind but pain. I really don't want to talk about that and small talk or what other people are doing with their lives. Not now. Thanks. Then he says How the fuck are you supposed to sleep when all you can think about is your son. sleeping medication does fuck all to help you sleep, but fucks you up so you can't think or walk straight through the day fucking owl. 11 weeks and words can't describe how unbearable the pain is. How can I survive without you? Or how can we survive without you? I went for a walk this morning along the creek where we often went photographing wildlife Raptors were your favourite birds. And I saw those crested hawks taking food from their nest. It's so hard without you. 16 weeks later. How do I feel? Horror, despair, devastation, hopelessness, gut wrenching agony, regret, incomparable loss, immense sadness, loss of interest in everything. Zero motivation, total physical and mental exhaustion. Not a single good night's sleep even with prescription sleeping tablets. Life is pointless. Life is painful. Life is a total failure. Nothing fixes this. Then he said he's telling a grieving grieving person that their lost loved one will always to speak with you and your heart, any less ignorant than telling a starving person to remember the last time they had a full stomach. Then he says four months of waking up to the same nightmares. Four months of pushing through the agony of reality, the overwhelming cocktail of pain and emotional overload, the haunting wise, and if only four months of hell, I only wish I could say it's getting easier in some way. But in reality, I feel like I'm more exhausted and less able to push myself more depressed. It's been four and a half months now of nonstop pain, sadness and despair. However, there are microseconds flashes of hope, and flashes of happiness, teases of the normal thoughts. They are only fractions of seconds, but they're there. And then he, I love this, this is five months. Life is like floating in a boat. On a seemingly endless ocean of sewerage, there isn't a single thing of interest anywhere in sight, nothing to guide you out. You keep paddling to try and get away from the shit. But that only makes the stench worse. Then, six months ago today, he says we've had record breaking drought, bushfires, water restrictions, floods, and a pandemic with unprecedented restrictions, jobs lost, businesses closed and so on. Ordinarily, this would cause me anxiety about my business and my livelihood. But no, they are just insignificant background noise, grief, and all the what ifs and if only these are the way to pay up, painfully dominate me 24/7 Then 11 months, waking up to the nightmare of your loss. And then 18 months, since we lost you the pain is unbearable, miss you more than ever. And I suppose that kind of captures that this idea that you know, time when you can't put a time limit on grief. And that's a pretty powerful representation of of his journey. And you can see why we don't why it's a difficult conversation to have. You know why? You know why people just don't want to go there. Like we spoke about being unzipped and et cetera. But over time, I've followed him and his photography is taken over and he photographs birds and flowers. And he calls it shatter therapy.

Andy Fermo: 17:46

Yeah. Well, that's right. Yeah. Cool. Yeah.

Stu McKenzie: 17:48

And slowly, he's, you know, posting about other things. And and you can see that he's, he's, you know, that loss will never diminish for him. But you can see that his life is expanding around that.

Andy Fermo: 18:04

Yes, yes, yeah, as we speak. And I think the growth that you're saying about that, there's a couple of things, but I'll just speak to what you mentioned before, his shadow therapy with the photography, so the mindfulness photography, Shadow therapy as as, as has he calls it in his post. What resonates with me with that, is that even I think it was at the four month mark, I'm starting to go for walks where we used to, I can listen to the birds and follow this. So now, he's growing around that grief, but trying to make that a powerful thing for being able to acknowledge it and be sit with it, but also be there and do something that actually I never knew. But at that time, we love doing this. So I'm gonna hold on to that, because that that that holds on to your memory, a way

Stu McKenzie: 18:54

that he can connect with the sun even though he wasn't he's not here. Yes, yeah, there's a quite a recent theory of of grief and loss called continuing bonds, all right. And you know, because the earlier theories were about, do the grief work, it was called the grief work hypothesis as the idea if you do the work, you get over the grief and you get to a point of acceptance. Whereas this idea of continuing bond says you might never get over this in terms of it being such a powerful thing in your life. But your relationship with the that deceased person or it shifts and you have you can have continuing bonds with them in ways like you just spoke about Yes, I go for walks where we used to walk I commune with you through nature and through through other activities. I feel like I can connect with you even though you know I hear a lot that theory. Absolutely.

Andy Fermo: 19:52

I like that theory as well. And you know, you see a lot through in terms of some of the positivity stuff in on those social media's and you know, this might not only just happen in we're talking about something really deep at the moment, which is suicide. But then there's also the the, the families that are left behind who've been widowed or widowed by, by, by our members of the military or first responders that that are killed in the course of the inaction. Right, in the Call of Duty. Now, something that I saw recently, and this is, you know, it's the, it's the father of combat VC, right. Yeah. And so he, he is still quite, quite active, very, very active in, you know, in continuing his son cams legacy, right. And also, but also, there's the boys there that continue to still engage with him, as if he was still there, doing things that can love doing. And then a recent example of this is that he and I saw them going, you know, they were going home that, you know, avid hunters, and he'd go out there and, and go there and hang out with the boys and do the thing. But it's still being able to carry on that legacy. And I think that the continuing bonds, really still, you know, that pain is never going to go away, I think it was, like 15 years ago now almost, like, quite a significant time that's going on. But

Stu McKenzie: 21:20

it is, it was the moment where somebody shifted the trajectory, it shifted the trajectory of their life into something that they were powerfully connected to, and that can have a powerful impact on the world. Yes. And in a way we spoke about meaning making is also, you know, how, how do I make meaning of this? And it's so impossible to make meaning of something like, you know, this made this classmate of mine went through, like, how do you make meaning out of that, but when you start a charity, or you like you have with invisible injuries, and when it drives you to, to support people who are going through similar things, or then then in some ways, it's kind of powerful in terms of your gift back to the world. And it makes in some strange way it gives meaning to what happened. Yes. And that's not going to happen overnight. And I suppose that we can, you can't put a timeline on the, on the grief, you know, on that process? Well,

Andy Fermo: 22:26

you said they were gonna go away. Yeah, you could actually but make create meaning around it is something that takes time, like, you know, in the in our case study that you've mentioned there with your mate. Now, this is 18 months in Yeah. And you can see that there is still a significant amount of growth that's happened there doesn't mean the pains. Yeah, not any less, like four months is still missing you even more now. But I found some coping mechanisms around, I think, and that's where we're at now is to some of the coping mechanisms are something that he can have a continuing bond with, with the shutter therapy. Yeah.

Stu McKenzie: 23:01

And that that really captures the rocky paths, which we'll speak about a little a little bit later. But you can see why. Not, not necessarily in this case, but but you can see why people get out of that swamp, there's there's such a powerful vulnerability in the words that he describes what's going on for him. And he sat with that, he wanted that, and he felt it and he expressed it, but you can see why some people, they go into the anger. So the next little part here, the anger and the guilt, if you like much less, where they might never, you know, where they beat themselves up. Or an another example that comes to mind. And it's a very similar situation that we've that I've been tracking a lady in one of our southern suburbs who lost a son, in his year 12 year, again, very similar. And she has become furiously angry at the Department of Education. And he's just projecting out that anger and that and she started an organisation called accountability and education and, and it's kind of this, it's this blaming, and it's all outward focused. And that's her way of coping with this loss. And it's meaningful, because there is probably some work that education can do to support its most vulnerable students, etc. But for me, she's not really doing that internal at some point, there's an internal work to do, where she has to why I'm not diminishing what she's doing and the mission and the meaning that she's making from this because she's doing it, but she's doing it out of that anger, yes, place of the anger in that place. And at some point, I suppose for real healing to occur for her, even if there is healing or for her life to continue to grow around that. She sort of will have to swim back into that swamp and I'm in process.

Andy Fermo: 25:01

Minoan wants to go back in when it's been you finally, if there's something there that you can, like, on the map that we're talking about, you know, from the anger from that, from that perspective of anger, it can't you mentioned right at the start of our, our chat today. Is it pushes people away after after time? Yeah. Yeah. So bringing them together. So that internal work is like, you know, pushing that away. Avoiding you will get to, you know, which is another part of that second part of the map. Yeah, avoiding having to, to face it is painful, though, maybe,

Stu McKenzie: 25:37

and it's heavy. I'm sitting here kind of feeling really heavy at the moment. And that's okay. And you can you know, once again, you can see why this is such a difficult topic, it's so difficult. How do you show up for somebody who's going through something like that? How do you support them? What do you say? What words do you say? Like, oh, my gosh, I think sometimes people avoid, you know, what, what am I going to say? How am I going to support them?

Andy Fermo: 26:07

They can kind of ask you on that. I mean, because you you mentioned that you said well, what is it, you know, is something you know, people are meaning met Well, meaning the small talk, they might ask you how they're going, it's inconsequential. Can you speak to that a little because, you know, you mentioned, what do you say to someone that's, that's feeling like that. I mean, it's, it's quite, it is difficult to really, you know, sort of, I suppose it's like, I'm not going to try and make you feel better, I can probably sit with you, I can sit with you and your pain here and empathise with that and go, this is a shit situation. We're here, if you need us,

Stu McKenzie: 26:40

I think you answered the question yourself, I think I think it's just staying connected. There's another theory of grief and loss, which I like, which is called the dual processing model of grief and loss. The dual processing model says that if you take time in your daily schedule, to honour that grief, to sit with it, to be in that space, to cry, or to sit with pitchers to really let that grow flow through you, then in some respects for a little while, it empties you. And it gives you the capacity to function in what is required of you in day to day work. And then that will build up again. And so. So you go back and you switch modes, the dual press, or you go back to the other mode of processing, and you process and you move that emotion and you write poetry, or you paint pictures, or you play music or you you do whatever it is that moves these feelings through you in a way. So we spoke about acknowledging, expressing, accepting, and then you can come out of that space and function reasonably well, in the life that you have to live when you don't honour this, your capacity to function over here gets really impeded. And it seeps into it. It seeps into every day of your life. And you know, it's in some ways it disables you. Yes. So another very powerful model of grief and loss is the dual processing model of grief and loss. And I think that's really a really good takeaway. For me, I think that's one of the most useful models of all of the models that have occurred over time.

Andy Fermo: 28:25

Well, that's pretty cool that you know, sort of think of that now and then in sort of, you know, from a non clinical perspective, the way that I connect with that through my analogy would be okay, so we're, let's go to the map at the moment, right, so we don't know where to go. We need to go past um, look, I'm not I'm actually not gonna say it, but I want to say it right. Okay. Well, Rockingham, that's one where you drive through that 100 miles an hour. Right. And but you think it's just faster you revisited the point but at 100 miles an hour they still went positive? Yeah, right. And they were gonna go to the different destination then sorry, I didn't mean that for the Rockingham listeners out there. In Perth. I was just you can't have a bit more lightheaded. People

Stu McKenzie: 29:07

have an incident where something happens to them on and they don't go anywhere near that road again, they don't some people have something happened to them in a car car accident, never drive again, never get back in your car again, shrinking their world shrinks a little bit, I suppose. And because you're avoiding, that's the avoidance mark

Andy Fermo: 29:23

is that what we're talking about just before then is going well look, you know, when in this that model is you know, you can you can go the growth and do these things here. But then at some point you need you go and revisit these you acknowledge you spend some time to be reflective on that. And then and then that allows you then to have that capacity to continue on. Yes. In that pain.

Stu McKenzie: 29:48

Yeah. So in some respects, you know, I'm I'm not going to say I'm any I'm an expert in anger. Anger doesn't really feature in my life a lot. I'm the peace mica and but you can certainly see when you put into words like, like, my friend has the power of those immensely overwhelming unbearable, ly powerful disabling spice space that you can be in why you? Why doesn't it makes perfect sense to bloody be in the avoidance marches, or, you know, and it's okay, it's it serves a function to be there. And maybe that's the dual processing model as well that we dip back into the swamp. And then we get out again into the avoidance matches as we did back in again. And yeah, I suppose the risks avoidance is, is how we avoid and weather. And we talked, we spoke about coping ugly, yeah, the importance of that as a, as a, as a stage of coping,

Andy Fermo: 30:57

not sustained. It's not as, but it's happening, yeah,

Stu McKenzie: 31:00

place to visit. And I don't want to underestimate that, that serves a function, and it's a really important function that that serves. So again, I'm not judging, I'm not judging the avoidance passes, and I'm not judging the the anger, and the guilt, I'm just saying, be aware that they are places on the map, be aware when you are there. And know that know, the pathway of how of what is needed to come out of those spaces and back onto that map towards that forest of hope, towards to, and back up to the rocky parents and back up to the same warm house again, so. So it's the map, really, that says to us, it's okay to visit any of those places on the map. It's just when we get stuck, or a part of us gets stuck in those places, and we continue those coping ugly strategy for ever Well, and that's the thing

Andy Fermo: 31:58

that the coping ugly is you know, like, it's a strategy. If we're, you know, a bit of a bit of a recap for our audience there if you missed that part was the coping ugly is a mechanism where you can cope. And you get by, by doing things and in the example that we use that remember might go to, like, you know, sort of some substance or alcohol abuse when going into being able to do these things. Yes, some coping at the moment. But is that a prolonged way? In, you know, in the moving through to the future, or even, you know, medications that sort of numb, numb you from feeling like you mentioned earlier on, from having to visit those painful, but really sort of dark places on that map? Yes. That were speaking, you know, no one wants to go. Who took me on that on Contiki? Tour? Right. That the bus bloody break down that bit there. We're now having to sort of cope ugly for a long time. Yes. You know,

Stu McKenzie: 32:56

slightly, that series last where the plane crash?

Andy Fermo: 33:00

No, sorry, mate. You didn't sign up for roadside assistance? They're up ship, Craig. Right. So

Stu McKenzie: 33:07

yeah, so I suppose what we're talking about, what we're talking about here is we're talking about post traumatic growth. Now, that's a quote, that's a term that was only coined in 1996. I think, by to deskey. And Calhoun it was, so that's pretty recent, really 1996. And before that, you know, there, there, there wasn't a lot of hope. around trauma and around, there wasn't a theory that captured. If you navigate your way through this, you will your life, you will develop a much deeper, more meaningful, more. What would you say about character, you know, like, you become a much deeper greater person. And post traumatic growth captures that idea that that potential, it's a potential pathway, post traumatic stress and post traumatic growth kind of run along as, as two consecutive two lines, parallel parallel lines, yes. And we sort of can choose, you know, once we sort of know that there's a potential for post traumatic growth, then that's a seed that we can plant and we can water and we can nurture. And I think that's a really good analogy of grief is this idea of it happens like the growing of a, of a plant or a tree. It happens more slowly. You know, it's about nurturing ourselves through that space.

Andy Fermo: 34:40

Yes. And, you know, like, like you mentioned before, is that that that doesn't diminish the loss or the pain that you still might feel, but you might have some other mechanisms around that, that there's still there. Yes, going back and acknowledging that there is pain there. Still, that's there, but I've grown around this year. Yes. I'm not letting that just define what I am. Now. You Exactly,

Stu McKenzie: 35:01

exactly. That was that lovely life grows around grief analogy we spoke about. So today skin, Calhoun define post traumatic growth as a positive psychological change that happens in at least one of the following, which is deeper interpersonal relationships, which is one or new possibilities. So we discover a new purpose. You know, like when we said people, people set up a mission, charity or a foundation to support other people's new possibilities, even new learning new skills, changing our life trajectory, away from a life that wasn't necessarily fulfilling our needs, or an increase in personal strength, more of a connection with something that's greater than us or spirituality, or a greater appreciation of life. So they're not Yeah, it's a pretty, it's an interesting theory, post traumatic growth, because it's like a positive psychological change that happens in at least one of these. Yes, these areas. So I suppose that's about how we grow and change rather than be stunted by? Yes.

Andy Fermo: 36:16

I mean, you don't need to have all of them to be able to go because there's certain elements that mate, it's over a whole lifetime, exactly. You might, you might, you might shift from one to another to another, that might actually work. I'm going to work on this, but you might not inadvertently go, Hey, um, I've got this map here. And I'm working on that today, you know, just kind of happens organically over that time. But to define what we're talking about here is it's like, okay, well, I'm doing this now. Maybe I might not feel like I'm going to volunteer and find my purpose here. But I've got a better relationship with myself now. Yes. And the people around me I'm not, you know, an example would be, you know, I acknowledge that these are happening now. I'm opening myself to other people, instead of being angry and lashing out now and pushing people away. Yes, I can invite them in. Because I'm allowing myself to be a little bit more vulnerable

Stu McKenzie: 37:02

now. Yes, yeah. And the work that Brene Brown has done. I don't know if you've seen her on yet. But she's written, you know, 567 books now. But hers, she's known for what's called the power of vulnerability. And there is a power in in that, in that vulnerability. So yeah. So I suppose the journey gives us the map gives us a sense of possibility, and potential tracking forward. And I want to say not all, you know, we've just spoke about one of the most devastating kind of loss moments that can happen to a person. When I say that life constantly, you know, we spoke about what's called cumulus, you know, that was absolute, it wasn't complex, but it was simple. It was a single event, but it was an absolutely devastating single event. But when it comes to the cumulative losses, we can, it's still the same story that applies in the same psychological landscape. So we can grind down over time and find ourselves just coping ugly because of life, and because of the key accumulated stresses and just feeling ourselves disconnected, etc. And it's, it's a similar journey where there will come that moment, will, this gives us the opportunity to recognise, I could be in that swamp of feelings and how you, there's still that moment of awareness, that moment of being aware of what's going on for us, because awareness must come before any change happens. If we remain unaware of things, we will never change, because we're unaware, it just sits, we're unaware. But But when this moment of awareness occurs, it's kinda like 90% of change. Because that's the big piece. Yeah. And when awareness occurs, then we have the possibility of, yes, of processing of understanding of developing a plan or a strategy or working our way through something,

Andy Fermo: 39:23

it's kind of like reach that sort of point in the mat. Where you kind of go you know, you pull over and like, you know, you're travelling you pull over and let's see where the, this town's information map is. And you look at it. This is this is so dusty here and it was probably made in the 70s I know there's some information here. Maybe like Let me wipe this down like the dust off a little bit. And that's kind of like being aware because what it does is then makes the map clearer the or it presents doors it prevents presents, avenues or,

Stu McKenzie: 39:55

and I love your analogy, or driving into a town where there is is no map and you don't. And you drive in and you have no idea where things are where that because there is there was no map on a billboard out the front. So even being aware that there is a kind of psychological landscape that we go through and there is a kind of a little bit of a map. And you're right, the awareness moment is kidding, the caked module the dirt offered and finding out where where am I? Yes, first thing you do in a shopping centre. The other day, I was in a shopping centre looking for the NAB, national striping? Well, I'm standing there, and I'm looking at the map of the shopping centre and the maps there, that's all fine. But it was no, there was no UI here. Arrow, you know, the little red you are here, right? There was none of that. So I was looking to see if I could see a shop that was related to this shop. And because I didn't know where I was in relation to the map, sure the map was there. And then I then I'll walk all the way down to one end of the shopping centre, I finally got there. And there's people working in a butcher's outside of Woolworths. And I said, Do you have any idea where the netbank is? And he's like, I don't know. And then he turned to his Culligan lady and, and she had all yet rod on the other end of the shopping centre. And it was because it wasn't clear where I was that that map wasn't as useful because I'd ended up figuring it out in my head. Wrong. Not Not that the consequence. You know, it's just a simple analogy, really, of,

Andy Fermo: 41:26

so you had to go through the avoidance marshes as well. And the anger and frustrations on the way just

Stu McKenzie: 41:31

crept in on that. And in walking, I thought to myself, isn't it good that I'm getting a little bit of exercise?

Andy Fermo: 41:41

At the buzzer. Well, I'm still looking for the map in Tasmania, but hold on, the conversation has gone from day to like, you know, the trash still.

Stu McKenzie: 41:52

That's really what I appreciate about you, Andy is, here we are navigating our way through some of the most intense conversation, you know, things of life. And in you know, we've all heard that, but I like the way that you, you lift us into a you know, you lift this podcast back into a lighter space.

Andy Fermo: 42:15

Yes. Oh, and that's a thank you so much, man. That means a lot. And so, you know, we've, we've, we've gone there, we're, we're we're looking at the map, something sort of lit up a little bit more in terms of the acknowledgment piece that you spoke about, which open awareness, awareness, awareness, awareness, this awareness is one Yeah. And then acknowledging it and actually doing something about it. You know, that that's your, your sort of five ways to the avoidance marshes or the younger anger mudflats, or back into the swamp? You know? That's that's the spot. Isn't it? Really? That awareness?

Stu McKenzie: 42:53

Yes, absolutely. Awareness? Is everything help seeking is everything. And then we are in a place where we can begin to process and continue to grow rather than being? Well, well, we can get ourselves on a trajectory, that millimetre millimetre by millimetre, is on an upward direction rather than a trajectory, where millimetre by millimetre, we're on a downward trajectory. Yes, Leads Step by step. Yes, step

Andy Fermo: 43:25

by step. And it's all those little steps, isn't it? It's most? Yeah. All right, cool. Excellent. Well, look, let's, let's that we've covered quite a lot in this episode. So in the next episodes do what are we going to be covering off on then

Stu McKenzie: 43:43

also, we, we, we revisited the swamp. And I think because that is the that is what this topic is about. It's about resilience, and grief and loss being two sides of the same coin. And we spoke about how resiliency is something that we're happy to talk about grief and loss less so for all the reasons that we've covered. And then we've, we've briefly explored some places where we can get stuck. We haven't judged those places. We've said that it's okay to visit those places. But the awareness of us you are here on the map, that I'm stuck here. Once we know where we are, then just like that shopping centre, we can then orient ourselves and say, Where do I want to be? In Wait, how do I how do I navigate my way there on the mountain map to ground so both the avoidance the avoidance marshes and the anger and guilt mudflats are places that we can get stuck? It's okay to visit them. We've got to go back through that swamp. We've got to process we've got to honour that grief and loss we've got to sit with we've got to express through all those different however that is that suits our way, whether it's in interpretive dance or whether it's, you know, indigenous people have a Lovely modes of dance storytelling, rituals, face painting and dancing around, you know, ritualistic ways. And I think that's something where we suffer as a western culture is that we don't have a lot of those old or those old rituals that help us process process difficulties in our lives. Yeah, so although that was a heavy example, once again, we are travelling through that map, sometimes at high speed, and you just pointed that out, you know, sometimes we go through it, we get a bit anxious, we realise we're anxious, we'll I'll use my breath, I'll use some use some techniques or skills that I've learned. And that was the discovered dis discover, distract, dilute, discover and develop those parts that we went through, I'll distract myself or I'll use the strategy that I've got. And then I'll say, Here, I'll good I manage that in its first few moments. Now I'm back up again. And I'm okay. You know, in a way, that's a real quick journey through but it's only by going through that, that we grow, if we don't go through those places, and feel those feelings associated with those places. And we're just skipping across the top of the map. So we go through a divorce, we jumped straight into a new relationship, that really there there's been no growth, and that's okay. It's okay for that to occur for that to happen. That at some point, if we're going to continue to grow as a person and grow towards wholeness, because what because what we ended up doing is we ended up splitting a part of ourselves off and we spoke about that one splitting a part of our psyche off, and then that part that split off it takes energy to keep that part split off. And and so we lose lifeforce, we lose energy in life, and it's by bringing those orphaned, split off pieces of our psyche back together. And to become as whole a person as we can be. That's kind of like the journey of life. So,

Andy Fermo: 47:17

Dumpty, probably a

Stu McKenzie: 47:20

good place to finish this.

Andy Fermo: 47:21

Oh, yeah, no worries. Okay, well, we'll be back on our next episode, we'll be covering these last few locations in the map of resilience. And we'll join you again. So thanks for joining us on this episode. Again. Thank you.

Claire Fermo: 47:40

Join us next time for the next episode of the invisible injuries podcast. Don't forget to subscribe. For more great content, follow us on our socials on Instagram. And you can also visit our website www dot invisible injuries.org.au where you can access more content. Thank you for listening to invisible injuries.