S05E11 Stuart McKenzie (Road2Resilience) pt5

In this episode of the Invisible Injuries podcast, hosts Andy Fermo and Stu McKenzie engage in a candid conversation about the journey of healing and personal growth after trauma. The discussion emphasizes the importance of clarity, accountability, and goal-setting in pursuing one's vision, drawing from their own experiences with creating the Invisible Injuries campaign. 

They highlight the non-linear nature of healing, likening it to a layered path with rocky patches and moments of triumph. As the conversation unfolds, they delve into the significance of reevaluating relationships and making choices that align with personal values and strengths.

 Throughout, they stress the role of adversity in building resilience and the value of psychological support in maintaining mental well-being. The episode concludes with reflections on the power of self-compassion and forward-focused therapy in navigating life's challenges.

Key Takeaways:

• Setting ambitious goals and staying accountable
• Healing is a non-linear journey with rocky paths and moments of triumph
•  Embracing self-compassion and forward-focused therapy for resilience
• Reevaluating relationships and making choices aligned with values
• Adversity builds resilience and character
• Prioritising psychological support and therapy for ongoing mental well-being
  Utilizing psychological support services for maintenance and well-being
•  Relationships evolve as individuals grow and change 
• Navigating life's challenges with self-compassion and a growth mindset
  
  Contact -  Stuart McKenzie
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  Website: https://www.road2resilience.com.au/
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  "RESPECT, NO POLITICS, WE'RE VOLUNTEERS"
  
  Disclaimer: The accounts and stories are "Real lived experiences" of our guests some of the content may trigger Post Traumatic Stress (PTS) symptoms in some of our audience. Feedback regarding other organisations, courses and initiatives remains largely unsensored. Whether its good or bad they remain the OPINION of our guests and their experiences it is important in building an accurate statistic on what really happens. 
  During the course of our conversations sometimes sensitive information may be accidentally mentioned, as such, Invisible Injuries respects the law and sensors any information that may breach Operational Security OPSEC

Transcript

Claire Fermo: 0:04

Welcome to invisible injuries podcast, aimed at bettering the well being and mental health veterans, first responders in their immediate support experiencing post traumatic stress. By sharing the stories of the lived experiences of our kids, or support staff and the clinicians, it's our aim to make sure we can have a meaningful connection with our audience, and give them the ideas for their own self care plan. If you do like what you're hearing, subscribe to the channel and share it with your friends. Lastly, these stories may be a trigger for your post traumatic stress. If your PTSD is triggered, we have links to support in the description. Or if it's immediate, please call lifeline on 1311 14. Here's your host, Andy fermo.

Andy Fermo: 1:02

G'day everyone, you're with Andy. And rounding off our series on unleashing your inner strength and the map of resilience. Joining me is a registered psychologist Stu McKenzie. So thanks for joining us on this episode again, mate. And thank you, we were coming around the corner now. And we've we've gone through some deep stuff over the last few episodes. And we've actually honoured those bits, which are the crux of what we're talking about, you know, is going through, you know that, that grief and loss, which no one wants to really do until it actually happens to them. Yes. And that catastrophic way. I also wanted to you did mention earlier on in a couple of the other episodes is, you know, we covered off on some other things like you know, the leaving the swamp of feelings, and, and touched on things like the anger and guilt mudflats, the avoidance marshes. And so those things there with the anger we did touch on on the last episode. But there are locations that you might not necessarily always want to be in for a prolonged or normal need to be the subject matter expert, but in your ebook in the we do have more information in though, on those topics, right? Yes. And so which which you've said that for our audience there they can have access to the I would

Stu McKenzie: 2:24

say the the power of this unleash your inner strength is the learning and the psychoeducation that you get from the whole picture. And I would you know, I'm not going to promise that if we were dealing with really intense anger management issues, because we're stuck in the anger that that this book is going to address that? Because I don't think it is, I think, I think it's its purpose is to show that psychological landscape to show there is a map, to be able to identify where we are on the map, and to show that there's a journey that we can take to come out also to show the relationships between resilience and grief and loss. Yes. And yeah, that it is a journey. It's a journey of growth. And if we can plant the seeds here through this podcast, so that you can begin to blossom and grow. Instead of shrivelling and dying inside, then we've achieved this book has achieved what it wants to

Andy Fermo: 3:30

offer. That's right. I mean it it does touch does touch on some of those other subjects, but just like a Lonely Planet book, then you might have or you know, a big Atlas, you got the overall, we touch on all these things. And then if you wanted to drill down on on that particular subject, there's other resources that are available that you can go down and have a bit of a deep dive there. But so rounding off, we've we've we've slugged it out out of those bits now. So where are we moving towards now on our map?

Stu McKenzie: 4:01

So it's lighter now we've done really the swamp of feelings is the is that central piece of the map if you like, and we went right to the bottom of that swamp in the last episode. Yeah. And then now we're now we're lifting really our energies beginning to live time as passing this awareness. The sparkling of hope is coming back into our life. And that's really the place on the map called the forest of hope. And so we'll speak a little bit about the forest of hope and then the rocky paths and how the rocky paths lead up to the sea more mountains, which is where we we reengage with life in a in a way where we we say what is it that I want? What is my vision? And I think sometimes we fall down at that point, because this idea of knowing exactly what it is that we want to create, you know, life by Design happens at the top of the same more mountains. That's where we say, what is it that I want what what is connects to my values and my personal strengths. And that's the work that we did on relationship highway, the work that we will do, clarifying your values, understanding what your five signature key strengths are, I often say, you know, and I like this analogy. You've got two hands out in front of you. And on your right hand with your palm open and facing up, you say, are my five, my understanding and knowing my five character strengths are like a superpower? And knowing and clarifying my values is like a compass. And with a superpower and a compass, I can I can achieve and create a life that I want to live.

Andy Fermo: 5:50

Really? Oh, like that? Yeah, that's a really that's a good way of putting it together, you know? Yeah, you got the you got the traits and what it is holding that in one hand, and then the compass,

Stu McKenzie: 6:00

the direction, direction, these are the drivers, these are the things that light me up these character strengths are the things that give me energy when I spend time in them. I'm energised, I'm connected on my best self. That's a great word. Yes. Yeah. And, and the compass is about understanding my values, and what's important to me. And then I suppose when we've got those two pieces, we are in a position to say, how do I want my life to look? Where is the destination? Where do I want to I want to create, and that's a very different space than the work of the map space. Yes, we have jumped right to the end.

Andy Fermo: 6:43

But you know, as always, we're talking about the journey. So we've got the recap of what's coming up, and then that sort of the recap of where we've been. So now we just need to fulfil all those little bits on right. And then so coming out of that Marsh, you know, we're covered in mud. You know, there's a forest that we see this, this forest, what's this, this forest of hope?

Stu McKenzie: 7:03

Well, I like to think that the forest of hope is, is the place where we begin to rebuild our energy where we're, you know, there's, it's a place where we can rest, and we can exactly what I said we can reorient, we can rebuild our energy ready to reengage with life, when you still got this dual processing model of doing the work, doing what we have to do. But doing what you have to do and doing the honouring, and giving time and attention to the loss is important. But that's a different, you know, being able to cope in what we're doing, and be okay, in what life demands of us be that parenting be that our job, whatever, on that part. And then honouring those feelings is different to designing and creating the life that we want to live that requires a completely different level of energy. Yes. And that's a higher level of energy. And so I suppose if we are to hike up through those rocky paths to the same old mountains again, then the forest of hope is essentially important, because that's where we begin to rebuild our energy, life force. And by doing the work that needed to be done to get into the forest of hope, hopefully, we've reclaimed some of those split off bits, some of those bits that were taking a lot of energy to keep at bay, you know, that threatened to possess us, you know, always think about road rage. You know, this idea that what what happens with road rage is people just don't even think about the consequences of what's going on. And I think what it is, is, is what's happened is this repent, repressed or split off part of them has come in and knocked away their normal personality and possess them. And they are completely possessed by this absolutely erratic, chaotic driving force of this split off part. So the speed of part builds energy and and can completely take us over Yeah, so that we do things that were like, Oh, my God, why did I do that? Yeah. When you look back on it, or when you reflect on it, you said that wasn't me? Yeah. But but it was a split off part of you that possessed you. Yes. And took you over? Yes. So for so it's essentially important that we integrate those split off parts and we've spoken about

Andy Fermo: 9:35

on its on its own, it's not the best that you know, it's like a It's got its, it can go in many different ways. Yes. But then when you bring it back in those other components, if you if you choose to accept to bring it back in or do the work to bring something back in, it actually helps balance out.

Stu McKenzie: 9:54

You reclaim the energy that it was taking to hold it at bay, and the energy that you You need to be able to create a life of your choosing. Yes, you can't do that when you've got split off parts, that takes too much too much energy away from your driving force using all your energy to keep keep those parts of you at bay, which is interesting so far. So in some respects, the work that you've done through the places on the map that we spoke about is about reclaiming those parts. And bringing them back in and going on this journey of wholeness. And the forest of hope really is, is, as we said, where we just can rest? Yes,

Andy Fermo: 10:37

and what I like about that, you've got the rest in the recuperate, right? So we you know, and then you've got the time as necessary to proceed through this forest, like in a forest like any, like any forest, in real life, it takes time for it to grow. Here,

Stu McKenzie: 10:52

it's shady, it's in the the actual picture on the map is like, is just sitting down and having people around us where we, you know, the waves of, there's still a risk that we can, you know, that the waves will still come and will slide back in and be swamped a little bit by our feelings again, but it's happening less and less often. And we are in a place where we're, we're not actively building and driving and striving, and I'm gonna do this, and I want to achieve that. And I'm setting goals and I'm hammering my way to those goals. We're not doing that. But we're not suffering as much either. Well, that's

Andy Fermo: 11:30

right. I mean, you know, and I sort of, I remember when we were still living on the, on the Sunshine Coast, and we're talking about this analogy of growth and nature and this pope, right, is that after all those for the 2019 fires, you know, started in that area, pretty much burned down a lot of a lot of Australia, and so many things were burned. But I remember clearly when we used to drive down from Noosa, down towards the southern half of the Sunshine Coast, is that all that area was just black. All you can see for miles was black, black, black. Think this is a sad state of affairs and you'd see the smoulder odd smouldering tree that was there for ages and you know, think okay, but then as time passed, then you see some new growth coming. See the green you go, that's a little bit hopeful there. You know, six months pass. You got this one here. That tree that was smouldering from the from a tree that was there for a long time. Has got shoots coming through it right. Again,

Stu McKenzie: 12:28

yes. Yeah, it's and a lot that that's the foresty Yeah, that analogy of of NYCHA and serenity of something that's a bit more serene, and a little bit more, we feel held a little bit more than than the chaos that we've

Andy Fermo: 12:46

asked. Right. Bonnie doon you know, how's the serenity? Smell a two stroke. Lovely, lovely. Oh,

Stu McKenzie: 13:02

really, that's where we spoke about that life grows around. Grief. And really, this is this is that stage of recuperate, really recuperation? And I think we have to be patient there as well. Like. And it takes it takes that time, and it's about connections, connections with people connections with nature, connections, connections with ourselves, connections with, you know, life and and activities of life, I suppose. Yeah, we're okay. We're okay. We might not be supercharged and firing towards our goals, but we're okay.

Andy Fermo: 13:42

Yep, I'm what I like it. And this will be the sofa for our audience who get the chance to be able to look at the images within this, you know, to follow along. In the forest of her picture here, I can see this is what I'm gonna describe it to you. I've got the trees that are they got the forest, the trees, and then there's the Zig zig zaggy path, right. But there's someone and I'm and I'm looking here that the person that's in that sitting on the path is sitting on a path. But they're talking to someone, they've got this connection, walking on and walking on it. They're just sitting on the path, and this path is a zigzag. But there's someone sitting just off the path there, talking to them, giving them space or letting them hold space, although this is the way that I'm trying to interpret it. And then the they're there in support. Yeah, right. You're there, you've got this forest that's there that you might not necessarily need be needing to go say, oh, I need to set this smarter goal that's going to earn me a million dollars or do this, this and this know, what we're talking about is there's a path there. Yes. I'm sitting on the path now. And I might be inching through it. Yes. Someone that's with me along the way. Yeah, lovely. And there's some, there's some hope around that life going around the grief.

Stu McKenzie: 14:56

You know, and this is a simplistic model in the sense that you It sort of has a lead. It's linear in the way that we go through the different stages. And but but it's actually not like that. All those stages are happening at once we, but there's a there's a there's a predominant theme. Yes, absolutely. And that's the predominant theme. Yes. That's the theme there. Yeah. So one of the things I'd like to talk about that's important in that forest of Hope is the work of Kirsten Neff. Now Kirsten Neff, Dr. Kirsten Neff, PhD, has done a huge amount of research around self compassion. Yeah, and the power power of self compassion. And I think it's in this place on the map where exploring self compassion and learning to integrate self compassion into our lives is essentially is an essential piece of work to do

Andy Fermo: 15:46

here. So what does what would sell? What does self compassion mean?

Stu McKenzie: 15:49

So self compassion is made up of three continuum. So three lines, if you like, underneath each other, and the first line is about how we sort of speak to ourselves in our head. So the first one is, do we speak to ourselves compassionately, like our best friend? Who really cares for us would? Or are we harsh and critical? And do we put ourselves down? You're stupid idiot. Why did you do that for you're such a weed? You know, and I know, we've all we have all experienced, how we speak to ourselves in our head on that, that continuum. But she, she, you know, so she says, The first piece of work and self compassion is, is being coming once again, it's an awareness piece, becoming conscious of how our internal monologue speaks to us. In terms of its tone, its harshness, its judgement, you know, it's it's real sense of, whether it's whether it's, whether we are supporting ourselves and building ourselves up with our internal monologue, or dialogue, or whether we are thrashing ourselves and beating ourselves. And I've often thought to myself, if I don't beat myself up in my head, I'm really scared that I'll go to what's gonna keep me on the straight and narrow. It's not me being hard. Yeah, in my head. Yeah. But actually, compassion, and being compassionate to yourself is more powerful for keeping you on a path and attract and getting you moving forward in life. So that's the first first side so judgement, are we judgmental and harsh? Or are we self compassionate and speak kindly to ourselves and build build ourselves up? Even if we say to ourselves in the third person, like, Stuart, it's okay, you can, you can get nervous when you do a presentation and feel like you're on the verge of a bit of panic up there. But nobody really can see that it was all happening within you. And don't be so hard on yourself. You know, you're doing a good job. You're putting yourself out there, you know, that's me speaking in my head when I had a wobbly moment. Yes. Yeah. Presenting to Yeah, bloody 100 psychologists or whatever, or a school or is it? It's it's internal, though, isn't it? Yes. Internal. Exactly. And it's, it feels really strange to start with. But you once you can disrupt a negative thought cycle and say, there I go, I'm being harsh and critical and judgmental, I'm going to switch that up. And I'm going to be loving and supportive, and it feels really odd to start with, but it can become a overtime, it can become a way that we begin to relate to ourselves. So that's the first line. The second line is is common humanity on one side, and, and isolation on the other side. So isolation is, why does this happen to me? Why am I the only one in the world who gets knocked around like this light, whereas, whereas on the other end of that continuum is common humanity. And that's the idea that everybody goes through it. This is part of being the human condition. And it's just my time, you know, something's it's happening for me now. But it happens for everybody. You know, this idea that 70% of people in in their lifetime will experience a potentially traumatic kind of event. And we spoke about that in previous episodes, but it is a you know, and that's a potentially traumatic event that doesn't talk about cumulative stresses and that slow, slow grind down. So and then the third part of that is over identification versus mindfulness. So this is like, why am I such an angry person all the time? I'm such a DISA. I'm such a that. As opposed to that mindfulness, which is a step back that says, well, that's interesting, that I'm experiencing this at the moment, but it doesn't have to define who I am. Yet, so she challenges us to move from judgement, isolation. And over identification or possession that a feeling becomes who we are to compassion, common humanity and the mind more mindful way of being in the world. And I just love that. I love that work. It is seriously powerful work.

Andy Fermo: 20:18

I agree, I think it is it is. But when when when you do get in, it takes a bit of time to be able to shift that mind, mindfulness thinking into it, you know, and I suppose this is where the 8020 rule comes in. Right? So it's like you mentioned before, hey, Stu, talking about yourself in the third person in the third person, my wife does all the mummy this stuff again, the third person again, doesn't feel weird. And so it's like, you kind of detach yourself from the what you're doing, right? But you, you can be really self critical. And that keeps you on the straight and narrow. But doing the work that you know, like 80 to 80% of the time you're doing this other work. Yeah, being self compassion and this and that. There might be times where you want to keep yourself in check. And then go this and that's okay. Yes. Right. And that's that part of the awareness piece is go I know that I'm doing this. It's not it's like you were saying with the, you know, coping ugly. Yes. Only for a small amount of time. Yeah. If you did it for a small amount of time. That's okay. I'm acknowledges.

Stu McKenzie: 21:18

Or we might continue to cope ugly, but it becomes a smaller part of our life. Yes. You know, and maybe we'll never stop drinking, or we'll never. We'll never stop, you know, doing the activity that was helping us code. Yes. But now laugh also continues on around that and we're growing and expanding. And I think that's probably more of a realistic. Yes, that's

Andy Fermo: 21:40

right. You got to let the rat run every single now. Before you put them back in the wheel, letting the rat run. Boom, go for your run. Get it out of your system now. Okay. Yes, come back. Yeah, that's

Stu McKenzie: 21:51

exactly right. Yeah, it 20 year rule, too, because you never all of anything, you never 100% about the idea that if you can get up around that, that that mark of of it becoming more of a more of a part of our lives, more of a way of being? We might never be there all the time. But that's a no, no,

Andy Fermo: 22:14

because then you're not striving to be perfectionists. Yeah. 100% all the time. It's not achievable on a sustained period all the time. Yes. Yeah. Well, he'll he'll be human that you've mentioned the human condition many times over the last few episodes. And it's like, you know, when there's mistakes, we make these decisions you go or you visit some areas that you might not want to, but it's only for that short amount of time. Yes. Yeah. But I made the least the better, like in the micro and so forest of hope, is a good place to be able to start to, to nourish to grow, to go on. So now we're going for this we've, you know, we covered off on the I think so

Stu McKenzie: 22:55

I think the you know this again, back to that analogy that we did in an earlier episode, where we spoke about grief being our entire life like a 20% 20 cent coin. Yeah, but then the grief may never diminish, but our life continues to grow around that grief, I think that fits really well in the forest of hope that we continue, you know, we join, we're part of a Men's Shed, we're part of a stand up paddleboard club, we will begin to bring activities we'd start to do was spend money on classic cars, we, we bring exercise back into our life, we we we think about eating well, we think about, you know, we spoke about those elements of mental fitness, we, we begin to integrate them into our lives in a more conscious way. Yeah, yeah. So amazing.

Andy Fermo: 23:46

And, you know, just just sort of came to me like with this, and then this is where, like, a lot of the hunting community, you know, there's a lot of veterans in the hunting community. And, you know, there's that one that the aspect of, you know, grounding animals, right. That's, like, always been a primal thing. But when we're talking about the way that they're going about, they're going into nature, but they're navigating different, different areas, different parts going down, these things are going through all these things. And a lot of the guys don't ever speak too much about they don't have to go and vocalise it, because they're they're doing it. They're actually, I am walking this ground here now. And that's a therapy for me to be able to go in. Yes. Because if you actually go well, I'm doing map to ground. That's part of it. Yes. Right. And so some of these guys, I'm not saying just guy, but I will say Guys and girls, right, but it's like the conversation that I don't feel that I need to go to this length here because my therapy is going here and inadvertently, as sort of like sort of the penny just dropped there. I'm like, you know, with this map, you're navigating a lot of these things, right?

Stu McKenzie: 24:54

Yes. Yeah. When you said map to ground what that sounds like a map

Andy Fermo: 24:59

to ground Yeah. So if you have a look on your map, and you can see this on your Google Maps on the car, sometimes when you have the map come up, it's like it's upside down. Fuck, you know, unless your brain is is barking, I can do

Stu McKenzie: 25:13

the old story. If you're old enough, no, but the typical story of the person in you, the man leaning over

Andy Fermo: 25:25

a bad navigate is bad. But it is so mad to ground means orientating the map, like you would say, in the shopping centre. Before I'm like, I'm gonna turn this around the right way now, so now I know that the NABS of course the mall, I know that the, you know, this place in this place is here. I can go, I'm gonna get a map. I'm gonna turn it around. That's, that's where we need to go. Yes. Because if the maps not oriented correctly, you might have all the elements and you'll be walking around in circles or the wrong way. Yes, yes. Yes. Right. So the Matlock round, you know, and I love navigating when that was one of my favourite things there is, you know, to get to the navigation was was one big, big thing to be able to know where you are. Or if you if you found yourself, well, you weren't quite sure is triangulating or finding a way based on other things. Yeah. So like that, if we, if we're talking about that, before we go into the other, you know, map to ground can say if I was on the map, and I'm looking at the map of resilience here. And I didn't really like spending some time in the hangar in anger and guilt, mud flats, and I've just left the swamp. And I kind of was just through there. So I can go, Well, this is my map here at the moment. And go this is this is where we are now I can actually take that time now. Oh, that's where the forest is more might walk towards that way.

Stu McKenzie: 26:47

rogaining. Right, guys. Yeah, yeah. People actually,

Andy Fermo: 26:52

yes. racing on the map. And the clay said, That's a great little sport, too. Yeah. Yeah. Super fun. Like, you know, when you're going on the campus, they're off time. So a lot of that map to ground really helps you be able to get those bearings and makes perfect sense. Yeah, that's, that's how I teach my kids how I taught my kids to go to get to school. So it's not no, this is this road here. This is dog alley. This is dog alley, where can we see now okay, that city way? Well, I could see the B, I can see the biggest hotel that stands out like dogs balls. And then we're going to go through this way here or smells like this, or we're going to meet the people with the dogs come in. Yeah, like that. So they're knowing these these sensory things without, you know, without knowing, but they know on them that they're orientating themselves to where they need to be. Yeah. You know, that's like an example for that. But also, you know, when we're talking about map to ground and the map of resilience, that's, yeah,

Stu McKenzie: 27:48

this is the path. This is the map of the journey towards resilience and navigating the inevitability. And I said it in our first episode, I think that that fire drill of hope, you know, one, why don't you know, why aren't we teaching people about these things? When when we know, it's inevitable that loss will come and knock at our door? We know it's a part of the human condition, why? It's probably more likely in people's lives in a fire, but we spend time with the fire sirens and mastering people and this is the muster point. And that do we spend time talking to people about that psychological map and how to navigate and where to muster your energy? And that's back to the forest of hope? That's, that's a muster point. So, yeah, I

Andy Fermo: 28:37

mean, I try and wrap that up. And in the different ways, I think, you know, is trying to do it so that you're learning but you're not having to, actually, in it more than that could be a different topic to be able to go How can I get this information over using over things with, with what people know? Yes. And I suppose I think we've spoken to that quite a lot in the last few episodes, because, you know, there's the map and there's certain terms and categories that we're talking about it, but with the examples, it's like, okay, how can I contextualise that now? Yes. And then so whoever is listening to the podcast, at the moment, will are can contextualise this, or, or connect with it. In my own situation. And this is if they were talking about that this is what is in mind and then there's a whole purpose. What is going on? This is the, you know, you you reflect what what we're talking about now, and connect that with your own experience actually, and it doesn't diminish whether, you know, those are the scripts were some, you know, my old wall was worse than yours or, or this is worse. You experienced a traumatic or grief or loss. And it's painful. And these are the things that were gone about it in whatever your situation is. Yep. And that that conscious

Stu McKenzie: 29:48

decision to pursue post traumatic growth. Yeah, because of your post traumatic stress because of that. Traumatic Stress. Yeah, but knowing that go Right, these are a distinct possibility probability when you know the map and how to get there.

Andy Fermo: 30:07

That's right. Yeah. And that's it. But sometimes, you know, we might go through the forest to hope we coming out on the other side. But announced, I might see a bit of a rocky path.

Stu McKenzie: 30:16

What does that mean? Yeah, so the rocky paths if you like, when we have rebuilt our energy enough that we stand, we're standing up, and we're starting to reengage with life again. And then it's like, well, I don't know if I want to go back and do what I was doing before I feel different. Now. I've, um, you know, this is the meaning. What is it that I want? You know, life is short, maybe? I don't know. Yes, life can take on more of a sense of, I've got to take the opportunities when I can, I've got to, who is it that I want to be? What are my values? And what are my character strengths? And and when I look at the compass of my values, and the the superpower of my character strengths, where is it that that come? What direction? Is that compass pointing in? Now that I know that? Where's that sort of Prop prompting me to go so that I can live a life that is more meaningful? More? More purposeful, more connected? More

Andy Fermo: 31:23

rich? Yes. Yeah, absolutely. And you talked about a rich, I'm enriches the

Stu McKenzie: 31:29

relationships that I have, you know, it doesn't matter when you're on that bed in the hospital, saying goodbye to the world. Everything that you have doesn't matter at all. What matters is how you how you loved and how deeply you were loved, how

Andy Fermo: 31:43

fulfilling that it means to have that, that I have that sense of the things right? Yeah. And, you know, you mentioned before, it's like, do I want to so

Stu McKenzie: 31:52

I just want to say here, that love is about love for ourselves. As much as anything else. Yeah, how much did I love and how deeply did I love? Yes, that's as much for us as it is for the relationships around us. And I just wanted to keep that in because not everybody has loads of relation, you know, loads of connected relationships,

Andy Fermo: 32:17

you don't need to have hit 50 million, like, you know, you know, like, big a big influencer on the social media is whatever is actually there for you in your sphere. That is meaning for you is your you know, you only define what your metrics are for success. You

Stu McKenzie: 32:32

I love that analogy. I've been climbing this ladder, you know, it's been so hard, it's taken me years, I've set goals, I strive I put so much effort in. And I finally get to the top of the building and realise that the ladders against the wrong building.

Andy Fermo: 32:50

In fact, that was the Joneses ladder, oh, it's going up the Joneses ladder, I wasn't going up my ladder, you know, and that's, that's a big one, and does take a long time to be able to even you know, like along that life journey, I want to like Sue, what you mentioned before, is talking about these things where you've got that rocky path, and you go, does that actually my old life now? And what that looked like, does that actually feel where I am now where I'm ready for my values to move forward to actually need to go back to that I've got a choice. You know, am I strong enough now to be able to go back to that, if it's no longer serving me a purpose, what that look like, but what you know, that's the inner strength, right? Unleashing the grown, I've grown. In those, you know, using all those metaphors that we've used throughout the series, you know, and you know, and particularly to the to, you know, the ebook is the Unleashing the inner strength, we've got this inner strength. Now, I'm ready to get this rocky path, but the path might be a little bit rocky, because we're on we're unsure, well, we

Stu McKenzie: 33:53

might have to have a couple of, you know, we might follow a path that's already there, we might go back to University of restudy, suddenly, we might go and we might change our job, we might pick up some new activities and, and meet some different people, we, you know, we might develop a hobby, a new skill, or we might beat through the bush and develop our own rocky path through there. But the point is, it's it's pointing to a reengagement in life that is now aligned with our values and our strengths. That's what it's talking about campus. Dan?

Andy Fermo: 34:33

In the what was at the end, yes, and we've got the right and the left hand and compass and then your your values what you've, you know, that's where we're going. It's more aligned with that.

Stu McKenzie: 34:43

You will also just the other day on Facebook post came up about all the, you know, Robin Williams and a number of celebrities who have taken their lives where ostensibly from the outside you'd say, oh my god, they had it all. They had The world and the money in the recognition and the fame and the fortune. And yet somehow, there was an emptiness in there. And I suppose the rocky piles are about that there is about pursuing something that is meaningful, and that we're connected to, and that that deepens our lives broadens our lives, and aligns with who we are. So it's a journey of rebuilding ourselves into, you know, with this understanding that I can be a different person. And when you think about service people, you know, sometimes you land on the you don't, you don't even need a trauma, you come out of service, your complete way of being in the world, which was very disciplined and structured and regimented, daily, PT, sessions, all everything there. And now I'm in the CV world. Well, I'm right on the rocky path, Zanna. You know, you don't you know, in that respect. Yeah, that's the loss, the loss of who I was before the loss of the structure I had before the loss of the supports I had before the loss of who I was, perhaps the status. And this is back to the retirement thing when people retire, and who am I now what fills this space in my life between who I was in a working life and who I am now, you know, in a retirement life, that's a rocky path that is an absolute rocky path journey. Retirement is an excellent example of that, particularly if you hit retirement, where you've been working five days a week, and then you retire yet,

Andy Fermo: 36:39

and there's a lot of that as well, like, you know, as someone might not need to necessarily, you know, and I want to acknowledge this for a moment, is that you know, what we're talking about here, with the map, it doesn't necessarily always have to revolve around grief, or that through that thread, or the conversation around every every soldier or first responder is, when they leave this organisation, they're going to be broken. No, you know, and that's not the case. But what we're talking about is that these these feelings, or what happens, and let's talk about he said of retirements, one, you might have someone that might be 30 to 25, year, 30 years, and you know, that in a career, that's

Stu McKenzie: 37:21

a Florida bank and ended up becoming the National Bank Manager. That's

Andy Fermo: 37:25

right, you know, started from from the bottom and 30 years or a long time, and that doesn't quite happen as much jobs. But if someone's been in that, for a while, that loss and sense of purpose, or that rocky path of where am I going to go next? is a very real and a big one, isn't it?

Stu McKenzie: 37:43

Absolutely it it's really it's a re it's a realigning who you are with what you do, and how you are in the world, that better aligns with your values and your strengths.

Andy Fermo: 37:54

But the journey is never ever like it's about, you know, there's always that saying about the journey, right? It's about the journey and get not the destination. But look, let's just say now we've taken that journey up the rocky path, but we're using the tools that we've had, you know, our compass and our morals and values will be aligned with giving ourselves 8020 rule to be able to, you know, be aware that we can also dip into spots that we might not want to but it helps us re energise and invigorate and get to the top. What's that called?

Stu McKenzie: 38:26

It's the same amount.

Andy Fermo: 38:30

And what am I seeing more of?

Stu McKenzie: 38:32

Well, it's, it's that idea that in some respects, if you're going to use a hockey analogy, you've come off one peak, where you've been able to see the other peaks, and get a real Vista sense of of your whole life and all the possibilities that are in front of you, and where should we go now. And then you you start to go on that and and you come you come down through a valley and then and then you come back up to another peak if you like. So that's a metaphor for kind of a journey of a little bit of grace, a significant transition in your life traumatic event. And he you know, even already

Andy Fermo: 39:08

as well, like I'm looking here now, and I've gone taking this journey. Yes, I've got that this clarity of where I want need to be.

Stu McKenzie: 39:16

Yeah, so I suppose the defining feature of the CMO mountains is the clarity you just spoke about, but the vista of life and possibility that is in front of you again. And this comes absolutely back to your compass again. Where do I you know, I've built some skills, etc, through the rocky paths.

Andy Fermo: 39:36

what else what else

Stu McKenzie: 39:37

when I look at my life, I look at the different aspects of my life. What is it that I when I'm in that space where I have the I have the energy I can see my future again, I want to set some goals. I want to achieve some things. That that is the defining feature if you like I'm standing on On the top of those of that same, the same or mountains? Yeah. Yeah, I think Tony Robbins talks about getting a crystal clear vision of what it is that you want to create. And then he says the second piece is sitting in certainty, or trying to this is this manifesting piece, trying to feel like it's already happened trying to feel like this is I am so certain that I'm going to achieve this, I'm so certain it's going to happen. So that's a that's a piece of keeping your energy high. So first of all, knowing what it is I want to create keeping our energy high. And then then the third step is what's called relentless pursuit. So that is, I will just keep pursuing what it is that I'm after relentlessly through trial and error. Until that I make it happen. Yeah. And I think the only place you can do that piece of work from is the top of the same more mountains. Yeah.

Andy Fermo: 41:03

And then someone gets given the gives the dog a bone, you know, you're going to pursue it that relentless pursuit. Yeah. Because I think though, when you're when you're at the peak of a mountain, then it gives you that that clarity and using your, you know, you've got the big view, big, wide open views, and you know, where you want to go. But you need to get back down off the mountain to be able to go down through the ravine, might be going through all that again. And you know, well,

Stu McKenzie: 41:29

and maybe that's happening at the same time. As you know, this is where this isn't a linear journey. We've simplified it. It's been simplified for the sake of understanding that journey. But it's, it's more it's more layered. And it's more nuanced than yes, then that Yeah. But certainly, you know, visiting H place reclaiming your energy that's been stuck in those places. Is, is work well worth doing. Because you are freeing up energy, you are releasing energy from those split off parts of yourself and bringing it back into your ability to what Jung called it. Freud called it your libido. Now, Freud's use of the word libido, was sexual energy, and that's often how we use that word libido. But Jung who was the just predecessor of Freud, he used coined the term libido as life force. Okay. Yeah. And I really that's a that's a because, you know, Freud was caught in that post Victorian era where everything was about sexual repression, and which it probably was, where they were, men would get excited looking at the leg of a piano, or whatever. But that idea of libido was lifeforce. And that's the I really like that. Yeah, you know that we are building our libido, our life force, our ability to be in the world. And we're only going to build that by doing the work of resolving some of the unresolved and faced issues that we've tucked away. So there you are at the top of that mountain, with with because if you're at the top of that mountain, but you still, you know, in your life, go to a motivational speaker and you're like, Yes, I'm going to achieve this and this, and you haven't done the work of the things that you've tucked away. You're not going to get very far. You know, you're much more likely once you've done the work released, libido released. lifeforce reclaimed it, that you're going to be able to create a life that, you know, that is worth living. So I don't think you know, is that, you know, that's this work of a vision board. What was the vision board is kind of like that peace workers, if I could, if there was no barriers, and you know, what would what would I have on my vision board? Yeah, like, yeah, which is a bit naff, but um, but still, that idea of, I suppose a vision board is a is a process of trying to figure out what is actually worth striving for? What is it that I want, what I want to create, what do I want to manifest in my life? Yes.

Andy Fermo: 44:12

And I mean, you might be able to do that in many different ways. You know, it's like, you know, you don't need to cut out bits and pieces. Yeah, but you want to at least have some clarity or written it down or vocalise what it is that you're going to do. Yes. Right. And an example would that be just taking it to our own situation is when we'd started when we created invisible injuries, and we said, we're gonna do this tour, like, Okay, I'm gonna do it. Now. I'm gonna say that I'm doing this, this will do it, how might How best can I actually do this? I'm going to contact the paper and, you know, I was doing some other things and I contacted the local paper, and they did a piece on it because you know, there was starting to be these other calls for the for the Royal Commission and all these bits and pieces. And I said, we're going to be doing a PTSD national awareness campaign this before COVID Right. And then so they wrote this piece of what we were doing this is this was a division locked to in May, I'm not going to tell a readership of 300,000 people on the Sunshine Coast that I'm gonna do this and I'm not because sure as hell, there was the old data. There's the old people that love to sit there and read their breakfast with a cup of coffee. Oh, hey, you're that bloke was here? Yeah. Almost a veteran, I was a Vietnam good on what you're doing. When are you planning on setting sail? Fly. But I need to get there first, or I need to, you know, do all these other bits. But I'll put it out there. So the point was, is going to look, that was the vision and you had a crystal clear vision, the vision was very clear. But if I didn't say anything, I didn't know like, it could be that vision. Yeah. But if you don't make your steps, the accountability pieces, I'm putting it out there. Now I'm not I don't want to call myself a liar. I'm not a liar. Fuck and have to find a way to do this. Yeah. And then we did do it. And then all these other things perfect. Perfect.

Stu McKenzie: 45:59

You know, and for you. It wasn't like, you know, you would had your own struggle with some post traumatic. Yes, the staff. There wasn't like you were completely healed as a person and complete everything was tacked to ISIS. Is it 20? Isn't it? But that that was part of a process of my healing? Yes. So this is this idea of layered and yeah, you know, it's layered. It's not, it's not linear. So Oh, yeah.

Andy Fermo: 46:25

Well, absolutely, you know, and there's those bits there, the rocky path that was the rocky path, and my heart is like, you know, what I didn't like about that old thing. This is where we're striving towards, yes. But then there was elements as well. You know, sort of, they'd be places like in Kakadu, you'd climb to the, we love the bushwalking. And specifically for that you walk up the bloody party to be sweating their major, and then you get to the topping. Ah, yes, it's a bloody good news. But now, gotta go back, you know what I mean? So this time around, I made a forking. And now with all that, so now we've come to the Seymour mountains, we've discovered this, we're going to round off. Now, we've talked about all of the things in the map, except for this last mystery. So I'll let you introduce that. Which is the

Stu McKenzie: 47:14

well it's, there's not a lot to say about this, it's this is really about the reengagement with alternative with with the relationship with life. And if you go back to, it puts you back onto relationship highway. So in some respects, you've brought you right back around on relationship highway, but this time on relationship pathways, you're a different person, and the choices that you make about the type of relationships that you have the relationships with your work, the relationships with your hobby, hobbies, the relationships with friends, etc, that's different. And sometimes we let go of toxic friends that haven't been helping us as, as we're at this point, I'm not, I need to leave, I need to call some things from my life. They're not building me up. They're pulling me down. And it's just not helpful. So this idea that when we reenter relationship highway, we reenter that relationship, those relationships, I, particularly the relationship with ourselves as a very different person. And probably our relationship with other people takes on a different quality and a richer quality. And our relationship with the things we do is better aligned with our values and better aligned with our strengths. And so that's the point and you know, those relationships inevitably will go through a process against and that's the whole point. Yeah, that life continues on, we change developmentally, there's no stop to that. When you're 80, you've got some developmental tasks, when you're 6070 You've got developmental tasks, they never stop. So in that respect, I think that ones that I think that ones that are absolutely

Andy Fermo: 48:55

so So just in summary, I suppose you did one that up a little bit more with with unleashing the inner strength this dude like, just to like in that last bit of closing, what would you like to be able to sort of some parting words for our audience today? Is anything that sort of comes to mind or?

Stu McKenzie: 49:14

Well, for me, just understanding that psychological landscape is the awareness piece. And I said to you before, awareness is 80% of change, or 90, you know, so that's a huge piece. There's a big piece knowing where you are being able to locate yourself on the map, help seeking when you're in the swamp of feelings, honouring each aspect, being patient with yourself in the anger mudflats and the good but understanding that you're there and you're visiting. You're not you don't want to stay there. But being okay being self compassionate, learning, that learning those aspects of being compassionate to yourself. Being more mindful not being over identified or possessed by strong emotions. The idea that you're not isolated in this, this is the journey of, of common humanity. And I suppose I'd like to finish

Andy Fermo: 50:07

with a poem. I love the poem. Poems is

Stu McKenzie: 50:11

this person who wrote these poems a little bit? A little bit more than made them I thought I took a picture of it, but I didn't. This poem is by a man named Robert Frost, Robert Frost. And I haven't got the damn poem in front of me. Read it, yes. But you'll notice it's called The Road Less taken. Yes. And basically, the finishing lines in that poem is to, you know, I stood at a juncture where two roads went in different directions in the woods, and I looked down one road, and it was a little bit overgrown, and I looked down the other and it seemed to be easier and more worn and the leaves were black, because people had trodden on them. And I could, I had this choice to travel on these two roads. And the poem finishes by saying, Two roads diverged in a wood. And I, I took the one less travelled by, and that has made all the difference. And I think that's, you know, because they took the road that was more difficult, but it's made all the difference. So for me, building resilience, we need adversity to build resilience. It's like we need weights, and we need to push against weights to build muscles. Adversity is what builds character. Adversity is what builds psychological strength. It builds resilience. And when we reframe adversity, and understand that there that we can navigate our way through that adversity and understand that that is a process and a journey that we're in such a better place to navigate. Being Human in this world. That's

Andy Fermo: 52:00

right and unleashing your inner strength. Thank you so much. So before we before we go, and that's just been amazing. It's blown my mind over the last few episodes that we've done. And then you know, the amount that we've covered, some deep, some light hearted, and hopefully our audience connects within their own story and, or if their immediate support in what they're going through, and they can take some nuggets of gold from this. But Stu, how can how can people find out a little bit more about what you do or the work that you're doing with with the book? Well.

Stu McKenzie: 52:39

I've got a web, the website is braveheart.ww dot brave, which we can put in the link now. Yes, that brave dash heart.com.au. We can work with veterans, which is fully at no cost to the veterans, we can, psychologists can connect with them once a week for 20 minutes. And we can journey with you or so we can be a co journey with you and we can journey through them. Or we can just be your well being person and touch base and see how things are going. Yeah. Or you can do a solo hike by reading the book and doing doing the online course. So you can enrol in that online course through braveheart.com.au. And that's probably the best way and we'll put some other links in in the training but knowing that we've got you know that you've got access to this support that can just touch base with you know, we have 20 minute phone calls with with our veterans and and what we can achieve in that 20 minutes once a week is phenomenal over time. Over time. Absolutely phenomenal. And

Andy Fermo: 53:47

that's the thing, though. So like and this is something for me and I know that I've utilised a telehealth service. For my own mental health I find it's like a tuner, you're into cars and you know, you don't need to go to the to the workshop when everything's right broken down, isn't it that you take it to the workshop or you do the work yourself? Preventative

Stu McKenzie: 54:11

maintenance that and just just tweaking and keeping yourself on tuned? And yeah, and it's like therapy. You know, we spoke about that before as in? Not really, it's forward focused. Yes, it's about psychoeducation. It's about clarifying your values. It's about clarifying your strengths. It's about understanding this, this journey. It's not backward focused. That's right. It's not it's not looking back and going deeply into your childhood or you know, your parenting or your etc.

Andy Fermo: 54:41

So that's right. Well, thank you so much for joining us for this series today is very much appreciated. And and we'll put the links on for our audience to pursue at a later date.

Stu McKenzie: 54:52

Excellent. That's been an absolute privilege, an absolute privilege. So thank you for this opportunity, Andy. Really appreciate and love what you're doing in this Nice. Thank you. Brilliant.

Claire Fermo: 55:04

Join us next time for the next episode of the invisible injuries podcast. Don't forget to subscribe. For more great content follow us on our socials on Instagram. And you can also visit our website www dot invisible injuries.org.au where you can access more content. Thank you for listening to invisible injuries.