S05E16 - PTS Growth - John Giampino (IGY6 foundation) pt2

In this episode of the Invisible Injuries Podcast, host Andy Fermo engages in a candid conversation with John Giampino, a military veteran, sharing his profound experiences and the impact of his service on his mental health. The episode unfolds in a conversational tone, structured around Giampino’s deployments, the challenges he faced, and his journey towards healing.

John begins by reflecting on his time in Bougainville, describing it as a relatively positive experience despite the inherent dangers. He shares anecdotes about daily life and the camaraderie among his peers. The narrative shifts to his deployment in East Timor, highlighting the stark differences and the volatile environment. John candidly discusses the emotional toll of witnessing the locals' suffering and the profound impact it had on him, marking the beginning of significant changes in his perspective.

The conversation delves deeper into John's experiences in Afghanistan and the Solomon Islands, emphasizing the constant state of heightened alertness and the psychological strain it imposed. A particularly harrowing training incident is recounted, where John and a fellow soldier narrowly escaped drowning. This incident, coupled with the lack of support from his superiors, marked the onset of his PTSD, leading to a moral injury that profoundly affected his mental health.

Throughout the episode, John shares his journey towards managing PTSD, emphasizing the importance of self-care, seeking help, and the support of his peers. The episode resonates with the theme of “post-traumatic growth,” highlighting John's resilience and his ongoing efforts to find purpose and positivity despite the challenges.

Service
1. John’s positive experience in Bougainville despite the inherent dangers. 
2. The stark contrast and volatile environment in East Timor. 
3. The constant state of heightened alertness during his deployment in Afghanistan.
Mental Health and Wellbeing
4. The profound emotional impact of witnessing the locals' suffering in East Timor.
5. The psychological strain of a harrowing training incident, marking the onset of PTSD.
6. The lack of support from superiors, leading to a moral injury.
Self-Care and Positive Mindset
7. The importance of seeking help and support from peers in managing PTSD.
8. The role of self-care practices in improving mental health and wellbeing.
9. The significance of finding purpose and positivity despite challenges.
10. The theme of "post-traumatic growth" as a source of resilience and hope.

Contact -  John Giampino
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/igySIXfoundation
Website: https://igy6.com.au/
Help Lines Open Arms (VVCS) | Lifeline | RedSix app

"RESPECT, NO POLITICS, WE'RE VOLUNTEERS"

Disclaimer: The accounts and stories are "Real lived experiences" of our guests some of the content may trigger Post Traumatic Stress (PTS) symptoms in some of our audience. Feedback regarding other organisations, courses and initiatives remains largely unsensored. Whether its good or bad they remain the OPINION of our guests and their experiences it is important in building an accurate statistic on what really happens. 
During the course of our conversations sometimes sensitive information may be accidentally mentioned, as such, Invisible Injuries respects the law and sensors any information that may breach Operational Security OPSEC

Transcript

Claire Fermo: 0:04

Welcome to invisible injuries podcast, aimed at bettering the well being and mental health, veterans, first responders in their immediate support experiencing post traumatic stress. By sharing the stories of the lived experiences of our peers, the support staff and the clinicians, it's our aim to make sure we can have a meaningful connection with our audience, and give them the ideas for their own self care plan. If you do like what you're hearing, subscribe to the channel and share it with your friends. Lastly, these stories may be a trigger for your post traumatic stress. If your PTSD is triggered, we have links to support in the description. Or if it's immediate, please call lifeline on 1311 14. Here's your host, Andy fermo.

Andy Fermo: 1:02

What was that difference in when you were like it was observe, observe hearts and minds from that Bowgun Ville environment to at that time with East Timor because there was some stuff. There was some pretty heavy stuff going on down there, especially in the early days. What was that difference? Like?

John Ciampino: 1:18

What do you think the bowden bill? Well, I told him it was the best bloody holiday I've been on. And spell I looked at Biglerville been even though you expect the unexpected is your burn territory and whatnot. But you really don't know what's going to happen. So you've got your mindset geared around that boat coming back. It was Yeah. Well, my first operation, that was great. It was enjoyable. I loved it. It was brown hug, day in day out because every day was exactly the same. And, and he got to the stage where it got a little bit boring. Yeah, some of us joined the rapid reaction force where he all get primed up. You wear your ballistic taping and whatnot. You have your ass buttons and jump on a helicopter and you trailing after hours. Then we'll call it out a couple of foreign spent knocking eventuated from it. Yeah. But in the end that self was my adrenaline rush. Yeah, there's in there giving that knowing that you're possibly going into harm's way and whatnot. You've got ballistic protection and in Spartan, they've got automatic rifles.

Andy Fermo: 2:29

They say don't bring a knife to a gunfight. Yeah, pretty much.

John Ciampino: 2:33

We had no choice back then. But yeah, it was good. Holding all my bogey Ville experience was very positive. Yeah. Loved it. And for the guys that went fishing, they just were crying. They loved it. Of course, the fishing was absolutely fantastic over there. And the locals were broadly loved though. We did have a good working record with them as well.

Andy Fermo: 2:55

Yeah. And then so when you got to Timor, Then where were you based there and what was that sort of that

John Ciampino: 3:02

all was based just outside of Delhi in Campbell Barrett, the watercraft were based over in New Delhi port. And literally, it was completely different. As soon as we arrived, we were shoved in vehicles going straight over to Campbell barracks, where we were issued with the weapons, rounds, ballistic protection, all that sort of stuff. Then of course, we had our hand over take over for a week, new crews went onto their boats checked out their weapon systems. Each of the boats had shifted to gallon machine guns 5000 rounds per Bowdoin whatnot. And yes, they went through the drills, checking out the weapons systems going on trips as the secretary curry to watch how the other crew operated. Of course, I was stuck in the ops room being a sergeant. I couldn't go with my boat. So I was stuck in the ops room doing you know, tasks, things and whatnot. In to me, it was completely different as complete reverse. We knew that we were literally in harm's way. And there was a reason why those 1000 soldiers out there with weapons and whatnot. But not only that, we actually went there where we transitioned from trading to anti UN peacekeeping force aside the either by the from one operation straining to anti it, it was yeah, it was completely different. The threat was still there. What can I say about East Timor? It changed me. It changed a lot of people, especially in those early days. And I went in East Timor, probably eight months after initially started so it was still quite volatile. Yeah. The towns were in Delhi. It was starting to people starting to get back in some form of normality. You had the walk We call the venga buses where you had about a dozen each team or he's hanging off the edge of these so called buses that they had running up and down the streets. You're working with other international forces. And yeah, so a lot of things were different about

Andy Fermo: 5:16

that what was said that your team or experience in deployments changed you how that

John Ciampino: 5:21

suppose in a big way I was actually it is my first time was just the people that literally suffering, the locals were suffering. They were happy will there but they'll living in absolute poverty. This is where the rubber hits the road. And this is for real, this is why we're either here to support the stay Marie's or their independence and whatnot. But watching and working around the locals and whatnot, even though we're in closed camp, but when we did go out, which was quite break when mixing with the locals and whatnot, just seeing how they'll live in literally a day to day existence for them. Because again, the infrastructure was pretty much gone. The windows made sure that when they left, and I'm not afraid of saying that, because that's exactly what happened. And then trying and watching the St. Mary's pick up the pieces and fine, we'll get on with law, and that I struggled a lot, and it came down to the basic necessities as well. So much so and a lot of us are you riding up bow families, and we've got any clothes you don't need gentlemen over. And this is what we're doing. We're actually getting care packages for clothes and we went to villages and whatnot, just pastor. Yeah,

Andy Fermo: 6:37

so a lot of that's that civic dude, that the additional civic duty, besides your duty as a military, as a soldier, and then the operation, then what you're describing, as well as that to that some of that challenge challenges, the moral codes and also exposes you to other things and how other societies can be affected by conflict and war. Right. What and

John Ciampino: 7:01

this befriended a lot of families out there because, of course, Canterbury's skirted townships and whatnots though a lot of locals were there, though smiling, waving to us, and just watching him walk around in rags, and I thought may have been a very lucky country, and we're very wasteful country. Why not just do the right thing. We worked it out. So he did get free postage. And then we've got clothing and then we started giving them our clothes and now we're just beside them. So for us, it was like you're gonna put it in the Vinny spinner. We're gonna give it to them, or I'll give it to them. Yeah, I think we were the main call called also, all the kids and the dental the future dental requirements because we did pass out a crapload of lollies, our little three toys and one that every time we went out there we had bands and Wally's would try. Yeah. 10 years down the track, they end up developing cavities and all that sort of stopped, our heart was in the right place, but we just didn't think about that.

Andy Fermo: 8:03

Yeah, that that's one of the things is is winning the hearts and minds is one thing, but there are more beneficial ways to be able to do it. But at the time you're creating relationships with the people. And I think that's the main thing you're not thinking about what's going to be the flow on effect

John Ciampino: 8:18

D and that was part and parcel so I suppose we have operations and whatnot, please do not hand the kids and the lollies they don't scrub their teeth and they will get the K and whatnot. So the fair enough, but yeah, I suppose and everything so we just throw them in here that I loved that something that was cost us next to nothing, but it brought him a lot of joy and put a smile on our faces.

Andy Fermo: 8:40

That's a big one there as well. All those little things there when you can have that feel good of being in an in a place where there's the smallest things that you think in our society don't mean much used clothes destined for the Vinnies been and tennis balls can mean such a lot for these people. And that that's the big thing on this they're exposed to when people have had everything taken away for them and poverty. That can happen that was East Timor, and then fast forwarding that little bit more because I know that I want to start talking about what happened to you and how all this stuff affected you. Anna Stan was again here because shortly after then there was a busy time that was Timor and Bowgun Ville through to Timor and then from there that's when the steam train started rolling through dinner really pretty

John Ciampino: 9:27

much all I was doing my subject one pole worn off sir way. I walked into the bro room and looked on the TV and watch the plane smashed into the Twin Towers. And I'm thinking the first thing I said was what the fuck just happened? Yes, he's language but my mind said the same thing. Straight after that. The barracks went into complete lockdown. So I was over. Yeah, sorry. I had briny. Yeah, no, it was over in the Gold Coast. Cananga Nangarhar Yes? Yeah, my memories. But Will there Cananga doing my subject and a sub one for our Warrant Officer when this all happened? And as soon as that happened within two days, can Unruh went into lockdown? Shall we add infantry over there during the next size? Well pulled out of that size are no the gods. So I literally alle abilities very locked down, you waited until the buildings were opened and walked in, they lock the building behind you, because nobody knew what was going on at ground level was growing at that time, because, of course elbow changed on that died. Oh, yes. And I would say less than a month after me leaving Canungra I was on a ship, then towards the northern Arabian Gulf, I was on HMA SendinBlue, we had to all share mates. And we had other equipment on board. What our primary role was because we'll attach the Navy whilst you stock all the ships smuggling out oil from Iraq. And because the ships out there, you've got a river system that goes out to the ocean. And these are the smaller tankers, they try to skirt the coast stay within the 12 nautical mile, because that is territorial waters. And we've gotten our jurisdiction within territorial waters, when they have to go into the international waters to skirt around rates or rocks or whatever. That's the time that we nab them. And that was our whole and sole job out there was working with the Navy SEALs, which we got introduced to and whatnot. And from there, Lou lilypads saw the Navy SEALs used to hang up our boats were there NS and NS, W's, we've got a different name, we're offering the same to Commander operators, same autograph, Neil. So they hung out for us and we fed them. And from there, when it was time to pounce on the ships, they went ahead, kill the ship where he was supposed to follow up, they'll secure a tie line to the LCME will timeout proceed at this area holding area where the US Navy was actually holding other ships in there. And literally, they were under the gun show the US Navy until the forces went on board done the clearing and whatnot found out what was smuggling, they did. And of course, so taken away and dealt with accordingly, according to the laws. But that was pretty much our job. That's

Andy Fermo: 12:40

so interesting to be able to hear that because when you in that sort of if we cast back to this is your role. This is the this is your lane so to speak. But when you're an operations and you're going somewhere like that, you mentioned before we pressed record, that there was these other interesting things that can happen when you're on operations. And what happens out of it as the fact that lily pad using the seals like all these different roles and why you're there that's definitely opened my eyes to what the role would have been in the sea because it is a much larger picture of what was happening at that time. Right it's definitely

John Ciampino: 13:18

and if you can appreciate the Jew the geographical location of all the other countries within the northern Arabian Gulf you have Iran in one corner and then like right next door to Iraq have a bit more you have Afghanistan around the corner he had Kuwait and they had the in around there UAE and that was it. So it was like five separate countries within the cell for agent literally, it's you're literally working around sometimes very volatile countries. Yeah. One instance was we were actually supposed to set up a lily pad ready for the Navy SEALs to do a job that got canned. So we went anchor her Of course we went anchor in the national water. And we were stoked. Basically we will be shadowed by an unnamed vessel and it came up on radar it was quite a large blimp so we knew it was quite a large strip vessel. And of course so we started with our airways, but they played dumb, closer and closer in the end. We had to give them warning shots. However their bow with their 50 counts. With the ROA Navy ROA is one that commander controlled navy. You have to give warning shots first before you start shooting at them were an army Roa. There's no such thing as warning shots. You have fire, but it was a gradual escalation of aggression. Dave Hill first thing was over the radio floodlights, then we find flares out them in just chill on the radio with them and whatnot no answer they got to the stage where they're getting too close and what goes through your mind

Unknown: 15:10

yes through your mind

John Ciampino: 15:12

oh yeah fuck did you do and you're fucked up but I said to the pro there's no goddamn way this board on board these boats and because in the end we knew that it was a patrol boat from a country of origin whatever they would have been blistering with weapons systems side yeah yep pretty well screwed all we had was ah the boats had chief decals we had our purse weapons and thankfully enough we had clearance divers on board as well in a looked at it and say what that oh Edo it certainly Vicki they're getting any closer mine I'm gonna jump in the water and jump on board and lift them all right now might just sit there and I had another clarity saw a hardened behind it and why Prof. I said seriously do just jump in the world they've lived my life craft, a life raft was made of fibreglass shell of his robber who was gonna soak up all that. Yeah, but in the end, we did our job with a when we did open fire on them, they lit up like a Christmas tree. And not only that, but the radio just lit up like the knocking going yeah. And of course he was on the radio screaming something in Arabic, his whole ship lit up to put off the lights on and walk know what we were in in contact with an invalid and invalid request that we are V with and straightaway. So we are paying it and we left. And of course the little buggers were following us. So turned around on the radio again, I said if you do not break away right now I've been up with almost 50 kills. And so he is in towards up in that was sharp

Andy Fermo: 16:55

left trying to test you to see how failure resolved was pretty

John Ciampino: 16:59

much the opposite of sip water on these boats, they are not sticking ball on these boats.

Andy Fermo: 17:03

And from from what I'm hearing John as well with that sort of story and what's happening, you never really know the height of readiness. And this is the thing from talking and bringing it to mental health point of view is never really know you're at a heightened state of awareness because the unknowns there, right, you mentioned before is your training will kick in when something happens. But it's always the unknown if you've got a, like you said with ROP shooting across the bow. But then there's also courses of action there that come in. And those also have effect on you as well, isn't it really

John Ciampino: 17:37

and this is a thing that actually unfortunately, some of my crew members did suffer PTSD out of that action, because literally they thought they'll guard to die. Yeah, that was one of the risks that was involved with the job. One week was alright, after a while, but the other one just went downhill. Of

Andy Fermo: 17:58

course, I think it's how everyone's you could have five people in the same incident, and further down the track. And this is how we with mental health and unpacking that experience, everyone's experience of the same incident is always going to be a little bit different. And they're all valid experiences. However, the thing is that what happens to the body in that environment as well, from that experience, is totally different. And that's the after effect of what we're going to be moving on to. And

John Ciampino: 18:25

this is where conditioning, all the member who's joined the first horse becomes very prevalent, need to be harked. Society doesn't agree. But in the end their life, that's the person who's holding that weapons life. So you need to give him all the tools that he needs to do that job at that time. Oh,

Andy Fermo: 18:45

it's so interesting, isn't it? You have to give them the tools to do that. And okay, this was it early game, right? It is. And so you have to give people those tools to make those decisions and do what they have to do. And we've got that part of when you went to Afghanistan and Middle East. Were there subsequent deployments in regards to

John Ciampino: 19:04

Solomon Islands was my last deployment. Yeah. And literally, it was federal placed leg. Yeah. And the Army themselves were there as the stick. So the federal police had the run of the operation. And we were there. Just because again, we had the tool, the Federal Police to where they need to go, Yeah, my main job there was Betamax. I was awarness class to them, who that aberration. And my job was initially to offload the ship, which was a menorah and float all cargo and whatnot. And from there, open up beaches around the various islands around Solomon island chain. It was great. Listen, in the end that was an operation that I really enjoyed because my set skills as you Not as a soldier, but as a beach masters that was marine came into effect. Yeah. And that was literally organising he to be open. So I would travel by boat by helicopter or by road to specific beaches of interest then from there or conducted by trade comm I would have an infantry soldier with me as my security. And from there we will go through literally from the back of beach all the way they would wilt in that soundings tank literally boring. The best possible route for LCM eight or LC H is to actually land in offload the good being initially dozers front end loader, Mack truck full of equipment to actually set up our place outposts. Such

Andy Fermo: 20:52

such an important job that people don't think about, let's get how do we do this? But how do we enable this, this is getting the resources that are out there and available. Such an important job. And so, John, I'm having spoken to this and then you mentioned before by that stage, you're worried too when you're you're doing this different role with as a beach master? Can you speak a little bit more to because he had such a big and long career in the military is going on these deployments at different stages in the your career. So going from say like a corporal position to that first Bowgun Ville and team or following through team or then you had the Middle East? And then going to Solomon Islands as a warrant officer? Can you just speak to that a little bit more and how the experience changes at the different

John Ciampino: 21:42

parquet? Well, pretty much what Bowgun Ville I think it was an introduction to overseas operations there Cypress Wade actually introduce the soldier to overseas operations now, for up level, even though I was there was extremely low. We put a lot of trust in a local sense. That's why we went in unarmed for us to do the job that we were doing was very important not only for the bogey billion people, but boy country itself to get back up after a 10 Year Walk, which literally destroyed everything we went in, we had to be self sufficient. That was the one big thing because we couldn't rely on the other resources because there was literally knocking there and begging to eat, everything had to be flowing, including our food, bottled water, our food had to be flown in from Australia, all that sort of stuff, because literally there was nothing there. Then came East Timor, the bigger operation, this warlike operation, carrying weapons around you have to have literally your senses about Rekia, you had that being the my right mindset, right frame of mind, knowing that it could be a threat around the corner, but also knowing that there are locals there as well. Were there there was ces there. And when they help then and again, help a country transition go out our country that was rolled under another country transitioning say criminal themselves. That was a very important thing for us because we knew we were doing good will there at the end might end up from there. Once the job was done. We left with that against and that was a sharpshooter, this was probably the most important operation of all because it was a war against terror. Again, everybody it was a training was extensive little time that we had we went through a lot of training a month of training before we actually went in country. And that was on the ship heading out towards there. And then once we were there cause Chow summit there when tap say there was an admin who crossed hemisphere now we're in the northern hemisphere during the winter time, we weren't properly prepared for that notary war, because the call out would say please, but we might do with what we got. We did join up with the Americans on our road cam Doha working with the Navy SEALs, air and whatnot. That was the truly memorable experience. I think after the incident we had an the golfer a Navy Seal, Lieutenant walked up to me punched me in the arm and said, I can't believe it. You're here for three weeks you saw reaction and we've been evil for months. Haven't you been fired?

Andy Fermo: 24:24

No, right, isn't it? I just come in here, my job's done there. But back to that humour. And that black humour that you can get to get by. But the former as he was in that role going speaking to the Solomon Islands, as someone who was in upper management, then up your Sergeant Warrant Officer, you've got diggers underneath you that you're keeping safe. So did that have different role there compared to those earlier days when Well, that's a command sort of element right?

John Ciampino: 24:53

It didn't know why see being when we actually did deploy over Solomon Islands. We I deployed as a beach landing team. Net. And that was a primary role that what we were back in Australia. And so we deployed as the beach landing team we went in, I think it will, yet we offload the CMH had all of my equipment on board there. And then we'll put in a holding pattern for about an hour. And we went on the radios of what is the problem? Why are we holding off? And the answer came back Oh, wait for the press to arrive so they can take pictures of you landing on the beach. And wait, he got be shooting real. Okay, now authorities. So that happened. We landed on the bait done, our job started offloading all the cargo off MINOURA. In once we got into the cycle, we have all the roles and responsibilities and all the people because we do train hard. We are a small team on the beach and give a speech and team we're very small team. So we sat down during the planet. And we started rolling everything in from there. We set up the beach and operational beach land side or Red Beach. Were that was water canal Beach Resort. That was the reason why it's called Red beaches. That's the place where the US actually landed. And they caught Red Beach because it was covered in blood and whatnot. But yeah, we were the first forces to land there. Since World War Two, then this is history again. Yeah. Which was great. From there. Once we settled into Allred sane and whatnot, Moon will then we started and the Federal Police were comfortable on securing around area from the air we started to branch out. And before anybody can go out, hold on, we have to make sure that we can get vessels in there as what the abt done, I suppose in the way that each operational employment had its inherent risks. The iOpener for me was East Timor, because I did come back a different person. And the reason why I say that was the I was in a car with my then wife and her mother in law after jumping off a plane from his table and there will arguing where they'll go under eight. Now I was in the backseat, none Why not shut and fucking Matthew. And they were just going off about I want to eat here I want to eat. In the end, I just exploded and basically told them both shuttler park up, decide where you want to eat. You guys don't realise how lucky you are. I've just came back from a place that they just starving here. They're hungry, they've got nothing. And they're to me. It just came out. And I just stepped back for a little bit. Because I did upset them to the stage where the mother has said, I'm going back home. Okay, your wife says we go back home turns itself I'd go back home because to me their problems were so trivial. It was just not even on the radar. Yeah, hi there, I just came back from places that are suffering. People were literally suffering through that. And to me, it was just the first of

Andy Fermo: 28:10

all problems. And I'm glad. And that's where, as you mentioned before, right earlier on in the piece was is that East Timor changed you in those perspectives, the person that comes back changes from those from what I'm hearing, and it wasn't quite the penetration that you probably would have had in your head when you came home. Definitely had this thing happen. First world problems that would have just been where are we going to eat in the excitement, you're back. But then from your point of view, you just got there as a man that this is mainly shit that you're arguing over, come from and then haven't been able to really unpack that. And that's like an outburst now, was that the sort of same in terms of when you got back from a changed man from those other deployments?

John Ciampino: 28:54

Yeah, with Afghanistan, we were lucky enough to stay on the ship and sell back to our style. So it took us a month to get back to Australia. So it was our decompression, which was great. Absolutely. When we did get back to Australia, and the boss said, So Joe, how was it? I said, I'll never fucking go back to Afghanistan for all the frickin tea in China. I said, we, we are so much in the lucky country. We're geographically isolated from all this shit. People don't realise how lucky they are to actually live in a country lockout. We've got everything. Value for life. He's very high out in here. We're in other countries. That means absolutely nothing. And it's Yeah. We are very lucky. A lot of people don't realise how lucky they are. And I said, Listen, it's going to have to take a conflict in Australia are a lot of people to wake up to themselves. Do you just realised how lucky we are?

Andy Fermo: 29:56

It is a different viewpoint, isn't it? And if you're not if you're not there When you haven't been exposed to those things, I think it is a bit of one of those things where you don't wish anyone to go there, but also realise at the same time to open your eyes to that experience and realise how lucky you can be like that. You don't wish it them to be there.

John Ciampino: 30:17

But sometimes they need a quick reality check, just to realise how fortunate we are in Australia, and how vulnerable we still are. And they do need that reality check. Because what I hear on the news, and whatnot, I just turn it off, shake my head walk away and gone. And

Andy Fermo: 30:36

it can be increasingly frustrating with with what's going on, because there's a whole bunch of different things way outside the scope here, wherever. What I'm hearing, though, John, is that that moral injury or those bits there that really can conflict with you, as a former, as a soldier, as a commander, someone in a position of leadership that can conflict you when you come back home from these things. So is that something there that you've touched on it from your deployments, which we'll move on from now? What was it that started that you noticed things just like in your 31 year career started and I've

John Ciampino: 31:12

seen the biggest thing for me my PTSD especially was and I've got to reiterate, there's nothing I didn't suffer from any PTSD. Whilst I was overseas, even though I did come back a change to person I definitely, where my PTSD stemmed from was a training expert. Yeah, for sure what that say problems I was a sergeant back then, but weighing operational deployment, and everybody knows or hopefully your audience knows what's a like five. It's a boat on rails to 10 tonne watercraft that dribbles both on water nor laid and anyway, we just had a reengineering programme. Unfortunately, the engine was a little bit lighter than the one they poured out, of course, but rain, if anybody knows trim the stability, they'll realise that the bow was actually dropping further in the water what initially was when it was designed, and we notice that something was very much wrong with these boats. When we were operating a rivet we normally do what is called we piggyback. So we go up to the turn of the other craft and now know, the bow on our craft who actually laser we're literally being piggyback while the other book happening anymore. What was happening was we were finding that the noise was dipping. So much so that water was starting to rush over the foredeck. Right. And to us that was an alarm bell. We did raise our concerns but they said listening the door right, the boats were still flowed and whatnot. We then conducted surf operations the first time since the reengineering programme and we took the boats out to to Ken Bay, Rainbow the rainbow be lovely rainbow Bay. Anyway, we'll conduct the SERP operations at one Friday night that was falling behind so the stall pulled me aside and said listen in you take this guy out and just give him additional training no problems. So I went through the complete drill we took them out and I was tagged number one, which is your look out and you have a number two which is your operator on the boat itself. The number one will bring out commands will the number two to abide by and will we drive out into turret from land into the turret no problems turned around came back. Okay, well it's to our buyback you can now be the number one no be the number to me John exactly the same thing so going out there absolutely no problems coming back. That's where we had the issues. We conducted our pre checks prior to exiting with this dirt back the land and all the pre check conducted bilge pumps. Ron will then walk down within his right to go then he gave me the thumbs up go. He was counting to six waves in every senator said normally have allowed and all I heard was out back or turned around on behind me and I say nothing they bring water does not stop now. Not being old. She saw I planted more foot on the ground. We had a chat about a leg. The bow of the boat was being lifted a certain standard the boat was being lifted the bow of the boat dug into the water and literally stopped the shovelling the water I had water coming into the cab on both sides and for you in New York, the whole boat just flipped out and the boats were actually designed right by themselves. Unfortunately with the crane on board at the centre of gravity was righties. It didn't go we had a boat now flipped over in the surf line, the number one Socrative cab with me. There was two of us in the cab cab filled up with Water within 15 seconds and the last thing went through my mind was on going to off and my son did because I knew I was going to die in there. And what happened was I went into calming motion but everything will remain clear. I think within two minutes we got out of cab I pushed him through the cab first through the hydraulic lines and whatnot he got out and then as I got out I got my foot hooked up in one of the hydraulic hoses so here I am fighting get my foot out and I finally got my foot out saw this lie that swam towards the lie and that lifts lead before I knew it I was out in the ocean right beside where the boat was still upside down. Wheels are still spinning it was still getting the props are still turning and it was upside down and buying my number one though is screaming out where are you in that was on the other side of the boat so was wearing to each other sorry sorry about sparked let's go low.

Unknown: 36:04

That's the main Yeah, were allied.

John Ciampino: 36:06

Let's get out of here. So probably about 150 200 metres out in the surf zone. So we're getting strong we're fully closed and then we'll get thrown around by the surf so I said Poppy Jack popped out Jack the blade at them unfortunately yeah the jack is because even though semi flight will still get thrown around the surf side are literally pulled in pull the jacket above off his neck and pull it above you so served in like a boogie board that's what we did Larry the most sick boat saying what was happening and whatnot they reacted but they couldn't get it and the reason why I found out later so called a couldn't plus was because the surface to Ross we literally had waiting for our lives. It took us 45 minutes, we got caught in a rip. And when I finally when we both finally got out the debut the biggest hug in the world because you know a lot of people on board that were on the shoreline that wanted to jump on to the lock problem get out and no matter what, but the Lord had not had to reluctantly stay on shore and just watch us can we had this Captain just sit there. He didn't want to get his boots. Wait. So I was in sand and whatnot. I walked past him. And the words came out of my mouth was I'm not going to fuck her now one day that one. And I walked off and the antibodies were there and all that sort of stuff. The adrenaline was built up. I was like everybody's checking us out and all this shit chair. You're right. But that was the thing where we're travelling here on the island. Those took us back to a tin can Bay. And probably two, three hours. Once the adrenaline is subside that Springer's shot that in and I had to leave the mess. And I went out on the road with all dark and I just broke down. And the number one offence, apparently they found him in the toilet, Kilda, crying and all that sort of stuff. So it was pretty hard from

Andy Fermo: 38:08

what you've said. And I will just stop you for a moment just so I can paraphrase what you've said. And what I'm hearing is that with that incident, if anyone is into has been on watercraft before or into the surf, Rainbow Bay and that if you're saying that the surfs rough there, it would have been bloody rough. I've been to that particular beach many times as well. But if you're in a vehicle, like that amphibious vehicle that's flipping over for your life, fighting for your life and then having to go through all this the surf skills swimming against a rib, then you know, where's my support these thoughts of survival, you've got a subordinate there that's also relying on you are relying on each other for that support to get through this getting onto the beach and then having known that it was a observe and watch type system scenario for this support. That's a lot of mixed emotions that are coming in and having to deal with that in the way that you did. Your body's gone. My nervous systems pretty shot here now. That's going to happen. Right?

John Ciampino: 39:12

But that was first of all those that are please continue for that had been once what year or one we then shut down. The exercise and activity the boat is now it's gone. It's sunk. There. We returned back to the squadron. Over in Townsville, now because we've moved from Sydney to Townsville, sorry in Townsville, all was requested by the OCC Darren visitor and are still this is probably not even two days after it happened. And then she'll go through and mostly building up here and whatnot. And we're going through everything and in the end she turned around and said tears rolling down my eyes and she looked mains said Wait, fine, you're alive, aren't you? And he was like, holy shit. I don't have to believe that just fucking came out of your mouth. And I left her office I was called straight into the SSM 's office. And he ordered me stand for us I was discharged and then he ordered me to stand posture in front of his desk and he literally started ripping shreds at him. He was variety man still there was no coming back is screaming at me is dumping his fist on the ground and blah blah this and that and all that sort of stuff. And literally something weighed in my mind something just snapped. And then from there, he said, sit down with thought about Ah, that was it. I my sense of being supported by my peers and superiors just went out the door. I was on my sales asking questions I said No, Sir Yes sir. No, sir. When he was finished Can I go now sir? Yep, you can go and I went straight over the my car jumped in my car went straight out. Doctor told him exactly what happened put me on until week leave straightaway. And then from there, just ranked down here died. Nine I had my PTSD but I just suffered the most. It wasn't embarrassing, because I had nothing to be embarrassed about. But the moral injury that came across being I wasn't even being supported by my peers and superiors at all. And later on made my said you best look at the report because they're hanging you out the dryer. And of course when I requested the report of reduced, of course you would.

Claire Fermo: 41:44

Join us next time for the next episode of the invisible injuries podcast. Don't forget to subscribe. For more great content, follow us on our socials on Instagram. And you can also visit our website www dot invisible injuries.org.au where you can access more content. Thank you for listening to invisible injuries.