S05E17 - PTS Growth - John Giampino (IGY6 foundation) pt3

In episode 3 and finale of the PTS Growth theme, host Andy Fermo continues his conversation with military veteran John Giampino, delving into the profound impact of his service on his mental health and the journey towards healing. John discusses the moral injury he experienced from the lack of support from his hierarchy, which significantly affected his confidence in leadership and his overall mental health. He recounts the traumatic training incident that led to his PTSD and the subsequent struggles with his physical health, including multiple injuries and surgeries.

John candidly shares his battle with depression and suicidal thoughts following his medical discharge from the army. He describes hitting rock bottom and the turning point when he decided to rebuild his life by starting a carpentry business, which brought him happiness and a renewed sense of purpose. He emphasizes the critical role of the organization "I've Got Your Six" in helping him transition to civilian life by identifying and leveraging the skills he developed in the military.

The conversation highlights the importance of support systems, both from organizations and within the veteran community. John speaks passionately about his work as an ambassador for "I've Got Your Six," advocating for the importance of transitioning programs and the need for veterans to seek help before leaving the service. The episode underscores the theme of “post-traumatic growth,” showcasing John's resilience and commitment to helping other veterans find their path to healing and purpose.

Key Takeaways 

Service
1. John’s experience of moral injury due to lack of support from his hierarchy.
2. The traumatic training incident that led to his PTSD.
3. The physical toll of his service, resulting in multiple injuries and surgeries.

Mental Health and Wellbeing
4. John’s battle with depression and suicidal thoughts following his medical discharge.
5. The importance of finding purpose in civilian life to improve mental health and wellbeing.
6. The role of "I've Got Your Six" in helping veterans transition to civilian life.

Self-Care and Positive Mindset
7. Starting a carpentry business brought John happiness and a renewed sense of purpose.
8. The significance of support systems, both organizational and community-based, in the healing process.
9. Advocating for transitioning programs to support veterans before they leave the service.
10. The theme of "post-traumatic growth" as a source of resilience and hope for veterans.

Contact -  John Giampino
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/igySIXfoundation
Website: https://igy6.com.au/
Help Lines Open Arms (VVCS) | Lifeline | RedSix app

"RESPECT, NO POLITICS, WE'RE VOLUNTEERS"

Disclaimer: The accounts and stories are "Real lived experiences" of our guests some of the content may trigger Post Traumatic Stress (PTS) symptoms in some of our audience. Feedback regarding other organisations, courses and initiatives remains largely unsensored. Whether its good or bad they remain the OPINION of our guests and their experiences it is important in building an accurate statistic on what really happens. 
During the course of our conversations sometimes sensitive information may be accidentally mentioned, as such, Invisible Injuries respects the law and sensors any information that may breach Operational Security OPSEC

Transcript

Claire Fermo: 0:04

Welcome to invisible injuries podcast, aimed at bettering the well being and mental health, veterans, first responders in their immediate support experiencing post traumatic stress. By sharing the stories of the lived experiences of our peers, or support staff and the clinicians, it's our aim to make sure we can have a meaningful connection with our audience, and give them the ideas for their own self care plan. If you do like what you're hearing, subscribe to the channel and share it with your friends. Lastly, these stories may be a trigger for your post traumatic stress. If your PTSD is triggered, we have links to support in the description. Or if it's immediate, please call lifeline on 1311 14. Here's your host, Andy fermo.

Andy Fermo: 1:02

He mentioned moral injury before they're so not empathetic from a support system that you had. How did that feel? You mentioned before that broke all those types. What was that? In your mind given by that stage? I'm thinking that this is towards the at the tail end of your career. 3031 years that was that

John Ciampino: 1:21

I was I was a sergeant back there. So why the tail end of my career probably in the middle of martyr that affect me, I had no confidence in my hierarchy at all, none whatsoever in the end, but you knew that there was a fault with the Warcraft as far as his trimmer stability is concerned, a third operate on land and not bright on water those few bit the basic difference. But the SERP operation was the final straw that broke the camel's back. And noting that we aired out to the proper authority It was It wasn't acted upon. We weren't brought in an almost costed people will their lives to prove that very. And that report basically went out deliberately to hang me. And to me, I lost all faith in my hierarchy. So much so that I changed as person I literally changed. I was very much one for my men. Definitely. And if I seen them do anything wrong whatsoever, all dragging my poles. And the only reason why I did that was because of the experiences dry lift. I didn't want happening then. I think the one big thing that was bright, it was a proud little bang on chest moment was when I was working class one I was working out in 70 bird guide, my Brigadier came up to me and said, Listen, 35 want to do by ship operation Bullock drives. I said I'll do that. I said yes. I said we can take the hired cranes off all but they don't want I said to from my experience, and I'm the only one that scrawled one and walked away from it. They're taking the higher crane offered until they are licenced and qualified operators. wrong there. They can do whatever they want. Or didn't I get the bloody phone cold when the Brigadier turned around. Colonel said take the bangs off. I said, Listen, I advise my Brigadier on what should happens and the reasons behind it. And he took my advice, and he's giving you an order. Yeah. So what's with the compensation? What were the phone call? I wouldn't say alienated from those Squadron and whatnot. But in the end, I had a set of principles, hereby and my job was to advise and guide and bring it here at that time. That's what I did. So if I hurt fear comes on the way. Tough shit.

Andy Fermo: 3:56

Like, obviously, he's given orders based on your advice. And that advice there with lived experience. Right now.

John Ciampino: 4:02

There's my little proud chest pounding moment. Yeah, of course. And

Andy Fermo: 4:05

now I can see that now offer for the audience who were not recording the video a bit with with those operations coming in. Thanks for sharing your experience. And I don't want to water that that down in in any way because it really sets that tone now for the work that you're doing that you did post military. So if we move from those experiences in the military, you did your 31 That incident happened midway, were things falling off after that, and then obviously post Solomon's to your discharge or what did you find what was the story there?

John Ciampino: 4:39

A lesson from there as well. I suffered numerous amount of injuries. So snapped my ACL complete rupture of the ACL. In both shoulders, the bicep tendons had to be really all separate incidents. So in essence, my body was starting to break down so much so that 31 year career how had made board. And they literally saying that I've had three separate operations because in the span of 18 months, and in the end, I made a decision. In hindsight, it was probably the right decision. But as a as a career soldier, I still had a lot to give. And I wanted to continue soldiering on. But as my boss stated, listen, my blessing want to do is change into a cripple. And so whilst you still got functionality of the arms and legs and whatnot, were medically discharging you. And that was kicking. It really was. I know, that was the end of an era for me. I spent the majority of my adult career in the army, I believe the Army made me the person I am today. For that, for me now leaving the Army it's like losing a family member. Yes, it was hard thing. And finally, when the diet happened, it was like one door closed. And another one didn't hope I was out in the cold, so to speak, he moved back to Melbourne, and bought a house in Sunbury, and yet started working on that. And in the end, I couldn't see myself laid the house for a long time. So literally, what I've done for the next eight months was had a jackhammer had a lot of tools and whatnot, the ground need a lot of work. So I turned a tiered block into of Westlaw. But I was also finding that more help than being was starting to degra date. And that had a lot to do with my second marriage, as well as my self worth to the stage where I just couldn't do it anymore. I wanted peace in my life. I wanted to rest because last eight, eight months was just terrible. And so much so that I drove out to a on the highway, I pulled up to a truck stop and a solid truck was seven Laban tablets. And they found me on the coppers found me and those were there. I was saying to Royal Melbourne, to the cute ward where I spent 10 days. And I get absolute rock bottom. I couldn't go any further. Well,

Andy Fermo: 7:28

so that was so you got to that stage. And and I just want to unpack this a little bit here. Johnson, first of all, we can feel happy to be able to talk about it. That 18 months was that from losing purpose, or not knowing what to do next and you would just avoid coping silly is what I spoke with with the previous guests is you're doing stuff just to get by, right? It's not the best way. Had you planned that sort of that pullover to take those tablets was that was those suicidal ideologies there at that time? Had you been thinking about

John Ciampino: 8:06

that? Yeah, it was. I mean, it's always been the back of my mind saying, because self worth was beat thing. Yes, I lost my self worth. And those on to what I want is clock once in my tribe, and I was one of them. And from from that element of my life and the top of my game, the ceiling, the back doors on a full pension. But that didn't mean nothing. I just lost my self worth. In essence, I couldn't find my way out. Being out in the civilian sector was a whole different ballgame wasn't it? But the way the mines the way they think they think for themselves were were trying to think for August 1 We thinking is and I just couldn't get my mind around. It's not I couldn't integrate with them. Sure. Shave voice started a job and I did. And I started a job and I couldn't cope because I was losing my shirt because I was basically telling people they were useless. Because now my mindset was completely different. But my work were completely different. In the army, you work and you work until you got the job done. You can instal he worked until you got the job done. And that's it these guys here I knew guys were going on strike because one of their members got attacked because that member told the group hierarchy but you got to get back he got out when he for me that to happen. I was like nah, I can't work in this environment. Yeah, so literally my only solar so I had was working in the backyard moving tonnes and tonnes of Clike rebuilding the backout but my second marriage wasn't good. I'll give you that straight from when I put the ring on my finger just went downhill from me, sir had that to deal with I had my medical discharge to deal with self worth, everything was just culminating one on top of the other. Industry, the stage where I had enough, I was tired of fighting every day, I was tired of struggling every day finding purpose in life. I was I was tired of it, oh, I couldn't do it. No, I shrink this towards 17. Well, the full muscles aren't in. And in the end, I've just, I had enough. So a bit the bullet. Now I want to go out and die. Because I was tired. And that, as I said before that the bottom of the barrel, I couldn't go any further down. And in the end, after I came out of the cute Ward, and then another VISTA Ward seven T, I had to do something with my loss. And that was the biggest thing. Now I knew I couldn't work in a civilian sector, because my work is completely different to a lot of others. But I need to do something with my life. So I look back and I said what made me happy. And the one big thing that made me happy was wouldwould come true made me happy. Behind the tools in funnily enough, I used to do it when I was coming back from exercise or came back from overseas operation. I used to work with the tools used to build things used to help Ibis out all that sort of stuff that made me happy that I thought shake. It was right in front of me. I didn't realise literally, yes, started off my business in carpentry. And that was first of all by a you hadn't at all and isolated trying to work? How am I going to promote myself out there. So it was literally business cards and my vehicle was my promotion. And that was it. I had these little magnetic strips on the side and went out there. But cotton was the jobs one week I had a job where you're getting, I was constantly looking for jobs and all this sort of stuff. It was really hard. And that's where I met up with Christina, Her background was marketing. And I told her my story and what I wanted to do with my business, and in the end, it was like, Oh, John, I can help you with this. And she went through the process. And she was pretty excited down the whole law, where to me it was starting become a little bit overwhelming. She started off Okay, first of all, we'll do the complete change over to your vehicle, advertising, all that sort of stuff, but became overwhelming. And then she's saying what was happening with my mindset, my body, and all that sort of sudden and said we need to really start focusing on you and start getting it to a stage where you get started running your business. And literally this is where I've gotten six immune to it. Because even though I had life skills, I had life skills in the village, and I felt that I couldn't transfer those life skills out in civvy street when natural backed military set me up to run my own business as to bull and baseless because it set me up with those skill sets. But I didn't realise grim transfer and this is where Pristina helped me and it's neuroscience it's to do with your brain II know how they train you in the army we train through repeatedly doing things Tom time get this is pretty much exactly the same way as where the I've got your six helps retrain your mind. And but you're forever working on new arc, but it refocusing what you've learned in defence that how you can transition them into civilian straight and of course for your own personal well being. You know, you say to him, You are not a CV, and guess what, you will never be a CV, you are a veteran, the we got to Defence personnel, and then you got a CV, you're a bit of both now, you are the veteran in the middle, you have served your country and now you're going to go out and serve your community even though you don't realise it. And this is what I do now with my business. I literally third mark me and really started opening up my eyes to the possibilities. Oh wow, my skill sets are very much transferable. And the reason why I say that is because even though I've had the operational services and whatnot, I primarily go out here to look after my client where you hear a lot of unscrupulous traders go in there and take money in trust me I've heard horror stories of felt higher than need to be vindicated, but worked with a lot of veteran and a lot of veteran TPI and whatnot. And they love it when we come over, because as we've said, we've got we told them exactly what we can do. Only our take. We've got a T Haman. effect where in a normal person out there you pay one where veterans first responders war widows, will pay completely different

Andy Fermo: 15:11

from what what you're saying there's, I want to be able to unpack that because there's a lot of real, important pivotal information that you've shared there, John, and I want to be able to share that and paraphrase that with our audience is, first of all is just speaking to that now, is that now being in a severe, a hybrid of civilian and as a veteran is that those sets of values are still instilled to you. So the way that you're conducting business now, and having reframed your skill sets, to meet a new operational needs, so to speak, in Old, old school military terms, is be able to go through and service that and you'll be providing that different service. That's the point of difference from a business point of view. But also, when you met Christina, she said that there was a shift there in that neuroscience this I can help you with, you mentioned before that those skill sets, he didn't know how to transform. And that's the important work that I've got your six is helping with now from family skills and life coaching to doing this. Can you speak to that aha moment of those things that that you worked on that change that mindset through the neuroscience? Okay,

John Ciampino: 16:18

so in essence, yeah, it's everybody that leaves defence comes with a set of skills, and whatnot, but we have devised them through a regimen or why have you heard learning that sort of stuff, but they turn around and say, Listen, I've been in infantry, I know how to operate guns and whatnot. But there is so much more that you know what to do, but you don't realise that you've got the potential actually, you're doing it right now. And into and personal relationship with people knowing how to filter known to be empathetic was there needs reassuring the your client or whatnot, and keeping them informed of all what's going on and whatnot, those sorts of try and knock out. And yet it's been installed into us because we do have a certain mindset and doing things and we do inform people of what we're doing. Because that's what we've been taught and military, we do have empathy, because we've worked with other people in your operational environment where there's even suffering and we've been suffering before. So we empathise with them. And we will protect them similar to how we protect the people that couldn't protect themselves. We protect our clients, because that can't protect themselves from other trainees, because they don't understand when they're being when it's a failing grade value and all that or when they've been taken for a ride.

Andy Fermo: 17:47

And so with that, John, there's all those key attributes that you're saying the military and first responder personnel have instilled into them? What was that work that Christina did with you through I've got your six that helped you realise or that guided you to realise that essential skill set that you already had inbuilt into you was transferable to your business that you'd created. Okay.

John Ciampino: 18:12

The programme there is basically focused on veterans and first responders there manage their lives after service. And that was a big thing, finding a new purpose in their life, through the skills that they've already developed and installed within themselves. And it also has got a lot to do with managing their family life and all that sort of subject because don't forget, wait a bedroom, there's always somebody in the background, that's always your spouse, and your children. So they too are part and parcel of your journey. They too have suffered. Because they watch you suffer so they then they themselves suffer as well, is that only was a part of their software. So in essence, I've got said helps. The veteran not only helps the veterans but help their families and children. Pa and this is what I've got to do. Oh got to say this, I've got is six is not psychology or psychiatry. Okay. We don't work from your here backwards. We don't. That's your psychologist, retired cartridge. We work on the now to the future. Though this is a flow on effect that we got. So after you've gone through and spoken to clear you've got yourself in a good position with your psychologists and psychiatrists the saying right now I can read the bull by the horns. Let's see what computer brings is where I've gotten six nationally held. And there you go. Yeah. And it doesn't early focus on employment, actually guides veteran to discover their passions, what they enjoy doing, what makes them happy, and listed big thin toe because when veterans do lead defence, there is all weighs one thing in the background they've done whilst they're in defence that made them happy. Yeah, take their mind off the job. And that's what we tried to find out. Because in the air, if there was a hobby or whatnot, we discovered what made them happy. But then because all make them happy now we can actually literally anything that makes you happy can be turned into a business. And

Andy Fermo: 20:21

it will happen is that what happened to you when you met Christina and you were doing your stuff with I can fix that

John Ciampino: 20:26

I started carpentry, because it made me happy. But I had no, it had actually promoted myself out there. This bought you seats helped me because I had to tell them my story, I had to tell them where I come from, before they understood where I wanted to go. I know what makes me happy. But this is it. Every veteran knows what makes them happy. It's up to them to tell Christina will tell the team I got sick, what makes me happy from there. They want to develop it into a career. Because anything that makes you happy, anything that you do can be difficult. He'd be more on my team. Guess what there are a lot of companies out there looking at people would build models. If you're looking on a haul haul of planting a lot of nurseries out there like gardening. What about landscaping, business, things that make you happy. And where Christina can then help you develop that into a business with business strategy. It can be overwhelming. And trust me it was for me because I had to stop it. Because of just too much information too soon. And you've got to slow down. And as I'm just getting overwhelmed by a heartbeat. And when you become overwhelmed, you start to close up again. Now I didn't want that. So she worked with me at a pace that I one go not work per stay in one go was my post it build up to the business where now today my I've got my own website, we've got my business cards, I've got my own business Facebook page, I got blind. So booked out for the next six months, I still got to do another five more quotes and they're not even young. What I'm hearing

Andy Fermo: 22:08

what I'm hearing, John is, is that with I can fix that. Now you had that idea. But you didn't quite know how to implement the other components of it even though you had all these other skills in built. And through that work that you've done with Christina, she listened to your story that gave and formulated a plan vocationally to be able to get you from here to where you are now in incremental steps at your pace based on your story and what makes you happy, unlocking, unlocking those skills that you already had in built and then transferring them to Civvy Street, speaking that language, at the same time, also instilling that purpose in you, because you've mentioned before, there's the skills that make you happy, but then things for business. But there's also those other things like family relationships, and those are the parts that come inherently with what you're missing. Because you mentioned before that second marriage, that was a foul thing, but you've got relationships with kids, and how can you move them forward? Or how can they interact with you and communication. So then that way that brings that holistic approach to it to being able to help repurpose veterans, first responders to something that's a little bit more manageable as a transition life after military to

John Ciampino: 23:24

the table as well. And this is why plateless and all I'm not going to start slacking out there bergbau interpersonal relationship where anybody is bullied. We talk to him we sit down we dumb everything down to them so they can understand we by getting out in front of them, sir they know that there's no hidden costs, fees, whatever. We become as transparent as we possibly can. And it's not I that this day, I still can't work with civilian Zeb got gearing mindset, and I've got mine. Here was two tours of Afghanistan. He left he was in the infantry left the army went join the police force after his training and whatnot. Roe v. crumpled everything just hit him once. Then he went through and bad depressive stage he was hidden drugs and whatnot. He was locked away he wouldn't say anyone Christina worked in for months at the time where she they turned on was going by you and turn the camera on was always in cheese and cry to where he is now. He's just bubbly. He looks forward worm is looking he's getting married next month. Got a baby beautiful baby girl. His life has completely changed. He's out. He talks to the community this timeline I do. He's life has changed 100% Because ALMS what I can see and X ray do or him

Andy Fermo: 24:59

Yep. And then that's the thing and then working through your business and working alongside someone that that knows the differences there. And obviously, that skill sets and values that you've got in dealing with your particular customers, we know we won't go into those business details, but I can just see it in your eyes there, how much that's given you purpose to be able to do that, as an ambassador for the organisation it is,

John Ciampino: 25:23

and we know that every veterans still to this day, have good days and have said bad days. So we're very empathetic towards that as well. And he brings Napa says our condo today. And then I say, are you all right? And he'll say, not really. So I can even postpone my business with the my business and go to his place and sit down and have a cup of tea. Or that's the beautiful thing because we're bouncing constantly bouncing off one another. So we're helping one another on the journey. And that's opened, every single veteran now and this thing veterans can bounce, aha, the veterans are belong the military balsa wood militia motorcycle club, Big West. And they, they my journey into the state, I was at top the horse in Trenton, right place one therapy. Fake enough of it, then absolutely Berean Ploetz, do what I am now. And that was a five year journey, and that I can't believe how much I've actually changed

Andy Fermo: 26:23

that growth, isn't it? It's growth, their post military, John, what you're talking about, isn't it. And it takes times because I know you're really passionate about this, seeing that in the way that you're talking about this, your growth and your journey. And then also your offsider now, and seeing how far he's come along. And the work that I've got your six has had in terms of being able to help you on that journey in bite sized chunks to realise that purpose, and repurpose those skills. But there's something as well, and then I want you to be able to share that with the audience. Is it does it's not an overnight thing, is it?

John Ciampino: 27:00

No, definitely not. It takes time. It does take me five odd years to get to where I am now. But in saying that as well, when I left the army, there was nothing else there. I dva right, we're gonna fill out all your claims and whatnot. And now well, and that should never happen. She'll be there's got to be a transition fighters, every member Lane automatically moves toward or looking at leaving the service, they definitely need that transition phase. We're not talking about a three day transition seminar that you know, there has got to be something in place and this is where I've got his six definitely helps him because the last thing they need to do is go through what I went without that port without that transition phase from the military into Sydney straight because literally, I couldn't do it because it was not having us to go to the cities we're looking at somebody completely he didn't really know what I was. And my home or and whatnot was playing in be part of me trying to get a jolt couldn't work with other cities because in the end, my minds and I'm a bronchial while somebody speaks five seconds later, there'll be on the floor blame because I'm going to use just nothing but a panini wife. And this is where I've got you sick and help them transition nine. They go through the programme and whatnot, but they get exposed to other clubs and whatnot, or a lot of veterans out there now, military brotherhood military Motorcycle Club is just one club. They've got walk minded veterans that work together, they've got their problems and all that sort of stuff. But at least we've got people that we can bounce off, you're not alone, out in this big, wide, horrible world. And it's guy that there's other centres out there like corn therapy, you need to have a quiet space, and just gather your thoughts and talk to other like minded people and whatnot. path, the path of Austin Trenton brilliant place. You got an operator, JD Ma, that was Commando. Yeah. And now he works that space and he loves veterans. All right. And again, with that, I've got your six. So there's so many elements there to assist you and help you along the way. But biggest thing that I and I can't reiterate this enough, is getting contact, before you even looking at discharging from the services, get in contact with I've got your six. So you don't fall into that rut. We don't fall into that hole. We're a we're a nonprofit, we're a charity where it's the charity organisation that we're in as though it's service organisation with a board members military veteran, yes, yet. We have a specific goal and will and there's a specific way of doing things I find We're there to help.

Andy Fermo: 30:01

So in closing, I know that we could probably pick up another part on this as well, John, because there's more that I'd like to be able to unpack. But I'm behind all of the John, in closing this, I know that you're very passionate about what you're doing your work now with your business, but also, as an ambassador, for I've got your six, is there some closing remarks that you can share with our audience, from a personal and also Ambassador point of view, that you'd like be able to share with someone who's thinking about getting out or is in that transition process, definitely

John Ciampino: 30:35

get in contact with October 6, it is free of charge service, you can go onto their website at a GYC stock Comdata. You got all the information there. Or you can give them a call on 03701823 double zero, speak to the team. There's absolutely no obligation it is a free of charge service for all veterans and whatnot. You could also be You also could apply for NDIS. That's

Andy Fermo: 31:08

a big one as well.

John Ciampino: 31:09

That is mascot. A lot of people realise how now I can't because w Diddy. No, it is because DVI will cover a lot of your injury. But where da doesn't cover injury as well, after you go through the process of filling out the forms, which I must state again, I've gotten sick, we'll do it for you free of charge for performances to bring in men to India. Here's one Chandi it says yes, then we can get you on the ball rolling? Oh, you got absolutely nothing. No, oh,

Andy Fermo: 31:41

well, that's it. And it's just really about going well, acknowledging that I've got your six is exactly that someone that's there in support for wind to help enable you to get where you need to go, especially in the transition phase where you might have lost feel that you've lost your purpose, or are struggling with being able to repurpose the skills that you have got and shedding light upon that. And having that support. Mate, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today. It's

John Ciampino: 32:09

your worries,

Andy Fermo: 32:09

thank you for sharing your story. And also some of those traumas that you've had is because it really is important to be able to see that change. And even though we talked about that those traumas is seeing where you are now. And of course, it takes that little bit of extra time and nothing is overnight. But what the diarization is that you're supporting now and Ambassador ng for it shows the difference. Thank you so much for everything that you're doing now for the community with your new purpose and life purpose.

John Ciampino: 32:39

Absolute pleasure out there. Pleasure, Andy, listen, I can't thank you enough for having me on your podcast. I've really enjoyed it love to do another one. But I've got over again to write with these guys. veterans out there. Both guys and girls. Hey, we're all brothers and sisters in this fight. Okay, we are here to help you. I've got your six. We've started this business, Christina and I as son over $140,000 into this business to get it up and running. We're going to still sink money. And the reason being is because we so damn passionate about it. We know it will work we know who will help veterans. The last thing we want to do is see another veteran take his own life because he felt that he wasn't being helped or there was nothing out there for him. Although many mates might we have lost too many mates. They even turn around and saying it's bad. Nothing is too hard. The hardest thing you've got to do, just pick up that phone and give us a call. That's the hardest thing.

Andy Fermo: 33:42

All right. Thank you so much, John. No worries. Have a good day. And thank you for sharing your story and being on the show. They certainly

Claire Fermo: 33:53

join us next time for the next episode of the invisible injuries podcast. Don't forget to subscribe. For more great content, follow us on our socials on Instagram. And you can also visit our website www dot invisible injuries.org.au where you can access more content. Thank you for listening to invisible injuries.