S05E19 - Robert Kilsby (ex SAS & Mountain Road Racing) pt1

In this first part of the Invisible Injuries podcast featuring Robert Kilsby, Andy Fermo dives into the incredible journey of a 21-year Special Forces veteran. Robert opens up about his rural upbringing, his early influences from Scouts, and the Army Reserve, which eventually inspired his path into the military. He reflects on his training, beginning at 17, and his eventual selection for the SAS. Throughout the episode, Robert shares gripping stories of his time in Vietnam, including experiences with scouting, patrolling, and collaborations with U.S. Navy SEALs. His recollections shed light on the camaraderie, challenges, and personal growth he experienced during his service, especially as one of the youngest members in his unit. Despite the traumatic environments, Robert’s attitude of persistence and pursuit of excellence helped him thrive. He emphasises the mindset required to not only survive but excel in high-pressure military operations. As the episode progresses, Andy and Robert explore deeper topics around trauma, the nature of PTSD, and the ways in which soldiers cope both during and after service. The episode sets the stage for a powerful exploration of Robert’s transition from military life to new challenges and self-care in the second part.

Key Takeaways

• Early Preparation - Robert’s rural upbringing and time in Scouts prepared him for military life.
• Pursuit of Excellence | Robert was always driven to be at the "top of the tree," seeking out challenges.
• Scouting as a Skill | Scouting in military operations required not just physical but mental skills, honed through experience.
• Coping Mechanisms | Robert found ways to cope with the pressures of military life, even before fully understanding PTSD.
• Blind Determination | Even without formal military experience, Robert thrived due to his sheer determination during selection.
• Team Trust | The trust between patrol members, especially in dangerous environments, was key to survival and success.
• Adaptation | Learning from others and constantly improving was a theme in Robert’s military career.
• Resilience | Robert’s resilience allowed him to push through the toughest challenges, including mentally.
• Trauma & Ignorance | Many veterans don’t realize the cumulative trauma they’ve experienced until much later.
• Meaningful Work | Finding purpose post-military was essential for Robert’s well-being and sense of fulfillment.

Contact -  Robert Kilsby
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/mountainroadracing
Website: https://www.mountainroadracing.au/about-us
Help Lines Open Arms (VVCS) | Lifeline | RedSix app

"RESPECT, NO POLITICS, WE'RE VOLUNTEERS"

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Transcript

Claire Fermo: 0:04

Music, welcome to invisible injuries, podcast aimed at bettering the wellbeing and mental health of veterans, first responders and their immediate support experiencing post traumatic stress by sharing the stories of the lived experiences of our peers, the support staff and the clinicians. It's our aim to make sure we can have a meaningful connection with our audience and give them the ideas for their own self care plan. If you do like what you're hearing, subscribe to the channel and share it with your friends. Lastly, these stories may be a trigger for your post traumatic stress. If your PTSD is triggered, we have links to support in the description. Or if it's immediate, please call lifeline on 1311, 14. Here's your host, Andy fermo

Andy Fermo: 1:02

G'day, and welcome to another episode of the invisible injuries podcast. I'm your host, Andy fermo, and today a very special guest. His name's Robert klisby. He served 21 years as a Special Forces operator and had a very varied career, which we're really keen to find out about. But these days, he also runs a mountain road racing and and he's doing some great work to be able to help out the veterans there and also be in the motorsport game. So, uh, big welcome to the show. Yeah.

Unknown: 1:36

Robert kuhlsby, that's right. So yeah, thanks, mate. It's nice to be here. And after having a bit of a chat with you, I think it'll be interesting to re explore my life a little bit.

Andy Fermo: 1:48

Yeah, fantastic mates. Robert, let's start from the start, as we do with with all of our guests on the show. What was it that sort of drew you to the military or Vietnam veteran? But what was it that sort of drew you to the military mate?

Unknown: 2:02

Like a lot of guys, not a country boy, really, I wasn't in the city so much, but I was born in Lee Creek, right up in the desert in South Australia, and lived in little country towns, mostly. And as we know, a lot of country boys end up joining the services. They seem to anyway, I was in the Cubs and then Boy Scouts and all that as I was growing up. So I was very much in the outdoor adventure business, really, as a kid. And my father and mother always were. I had a terrific upbringing. Actually, I've got to say they brought me up to be pretty independent kid and have a go and have a crack at things. So that's that's not a bad break in the foundation of being in the services, really. So in fact, when I was in high school, I was also an Army Reserve soldier in CMF. They called it in those days, says the military pause, or whatever. And so I was now the guys were in the fourth year high school, which was the fifth year high school in those days. I was down in Adelaide, by then, in the Adelaide Boys High but I noticed everyone else was getting the parties and all that. When I was down the road in 10th, 10th battalion, which is a first world war battalion, actually, Adelaide, and I was humping 3.5 inch mortars around the place and things like that as a teenage high school student. So I had a very unusual start, in a way. But from that, I thought, this is a life, this army stuff. And I was, I must admit, I met a on an Army Reserve training trip out at El Alamein. Some people might know it out there the the I met a guy who was a an ex SAS officer as one of the one of the staff or instructors on that big exercise room, and I looked at him, and I thought, That's pretty his team's damn professional. And maybe if I joined the army, I might end up something like that. And that was the sort of Nexus. And then I went back to school after that, and I then I told my dad, I'm going to leave the army. I'm going to leave the school and get into the army. So I did that. So I joined about 17 and a half actually, as enlisted there and Adelaide, and then did all the normal stuff, went to capuca and and did it right there. And because I'd already done a lot of the things by the time I got to capuca reserve for six months, and I really loved the life. I love the main ship to the camaraderie, and I love the outdoor stuff and work with new stuff. And that's just been my life as a kid. And yeah, right from I was delayed down mazea to

Andy Fermo: 4:30

rob, just Robert. So why? I just wanted to paraphrase and ask some questions in regards to that. So as a country kid, you, you mentioned, and a lot of other guy that the guests that we've had before really do have that skill from being out in the bush and being working on the land and being outdoors. Now you said that you'd already you joined like a reserve unit the 10th, wasn't it when you were in high school and you saw that bloke that was in the with the SCA. Professional soldier type that you were saying that you wanted to model yourself off. Now, did you know about the SAS at that time?

Unknown: 5:07

Never heard of it. And I wasn't heavy in the military history at that time. I got steady. I got well in when I joined the military, but when I joined the regulars. But I didn't know what SAS. All I knew was it was someone said, Oh, that's the top of the tree in terms of combat, infantry type of work. And I thought, that's where I want to be. I want to be at the top of the tree. So I always had that sort of pursuit of excellence, sort of feel in me from a kid, Yeah,

Andy Fermo: 5:34

amazing. And when you were in kapuka. And so someone who who went through, and then going to Vietnam as well when you went through kapuka, I just wanted to see what that type of training was at that time, because was Vietnam well underway when you went, what was the story there? Yeah,

Unknown: 5:52

well, Vietnam War was, in fact, the reason I go back a step here. I remember sitting at the back of my class. Everyone else was reading their textbooks, and I was reading the newspaper where I was talking about the Battle of caisson in 68 a big battle. And I thought, and I read between the lines, and I thought, this bloody war is going to not be long here. The Americans are starting to make noises about pulling out and all this sort of stuff. And I thought that war's going to be finished before I can get there, so I thought I better hurry up. So I joined the regulars just to try and catch the wall before it finished. So pretty, pretty wild idea to a lot of kids these days, but, yeah, but that's the way I thought thought. And so the when I went to capuco, the I just loved all the training, and there wasn't anything I didn't like about it, really. I thought it was funny how people yelled at you and things like that, and I didn't faze me at all. I thought, oh, that's what they do, and that's their problem, not mine, you know. And because I was always cracking in there and doing extra. And so I there's an old saying in the army, never volunteer, but I like to volunteer for everything, you know, especially if there's opportunity there. So, so the training was, was pretty good. There was the war was on, so a lot of guys, they tended to try and get a good number for infantry. Yeah, we're all regulars there in capuca, because I think the national service was on at that time. Yeah, we're older guys, a lot of younger guys in capuca, of course, and the regulars, the older, the old nachos. So it's like 2122 sort of age group from memory. And they were training in different like skyville, and think of scrivel, and then also pakkapandaul. And they had the Nash training capucas thing, yeah. So it was lot of young blokes, 1817, 1819, sort of people. So that was good. And graduated from there. And I say, where do you want to go? And I said, infantry. And just to try and make sure, and of course, they sent me to infantry, because I was right into the infantry stuff. And it went to Ingleburn in those days, the infantry Center at Ingleburn up near Liverpool in Sydney, which is was hard yards in those days, was real working class sort of thing, and punch a soldier and punch a bloke in the Liverpool pub and all this sort of stuff. Education in that regard. Oh, not

Andy Fermo: 8:13

much has changed, mate.

Unknown: 8:15

So I went through Ingleburn really well, and I was doing all those crazy things like everyone else to get out of the pub. When I was on the I was doing extra training on the in the obstacle course out the back by myself, and all this sort of stuff. Because I figured if I was going to go anywhere, I better be good at it. Whatever that was, I didn't know really. In the end, I was the youngest guy in the platoon. So this was something that's gone all through my career. I was always the youngest guy. In fact, I was the youngest guy in the last sa squadron in Vietnam, youngest guy on the regiment for a while as well, so on. So I was the youngest guy in the in my platoon in Ingleburn and but I was still made one of the three sort of squad leaders, or section commander type, they allocate three guys, and I was one of those. Even though I was the youngest, we had guys in that push from a couple of guys out of Long Bay jail. And it was a few characters, interesting characters, yeah, in my section, in fact. So I was up against it, but I loved that, and I did really well. And in fact, that we I didn't actually graduate from Ingleburn, interestingly enough, because I was picked up to go to the west even before I graduated, for whatever reason and because I applied while I was in infantry center, and one of my mates who joined the army with Lenny Smith, who was a great soldier, he applied at the same time, and We ended up going over there together. It was interesting because he joined the army the same day I did. He was in the same platoon. He wasn't Melbourne, and we met him at Spencer Street Station, when we trailed over from Adelaide and met these, all these other blokes. We went to compete together. But so Leno and me ended up going together to the west. But it was interesting because we're. Last exercise in, I remember this fairly vividly, because it was a pretty torrid time, the last exercise in where was a Tuli pass, I think in those days, mud and the jungle and all this was up, digging holes and up. Platoon took the sergeant was a bit of a hard ass, and so he actually made us do an obstacle course. Build an obstacle course in the jungle there. So we used to go over that time and time again. Didn't worry me. I loved it and but there was a few disgruntled diggers in the that was a bit over the top, but any anyway we would come to come. It was a payday, and I was I had an old occasion with a couple of guys in my section. One of them, he won the punch up. So we were out the back having a bit of a punch up, and I did slightly better than him, I think. And so we're good friends after that, of course. But the doc said, Oh, hey, day is the pay guys have arrived in those days. Of course, the guy, the second lieutenant, would turn up with a young digger or Lance Corporal or something with a pistol, and they'd pay you out, even in the field the front up and say, Pay track, sir, and all that sort of stuff in those days. And I went and got my pay, and they said, pack your bags. Kills me. You're going to the west. So I got chipped out of there with the pay blokes. Went back to engleburn and all by myself. There was everyone out was on final exercise, so it was a pretty lonely time there by myself. I didn't know what was going to happen. So anyway, had a tub and went to the orderly room and packed up. And then there was Leno from another platoon there waiting as the same time. And I said, Where you going to and he says, we go into the West mate. And so we flew off to start the selection process in Western Australia. So I all those guys that I was with, they all went to Vietnam, pretty much. A couple of them were wounded and one was killed, I think, but they were great guys, and I was still in touch with a couple of today,

Andy Fermo: 11:55

and when you went over to the west, and so that was still okay, you'd been earmarked. And that's a different sort of pathway to how it works these days, but maybe not too far from what you're describing. Robert, and when you got there, did when you heard Am I going, Oh, you're going over West. Did you actually, by that time know what the top of the tree was and why I

Unknown: 12:17

looked into it a little bit more, and just going back a step when they did this, they did the normal application, and then they send the selection board panel around, which was usually the SI of the course, a captain or a major in those days, and the regimental site officer or and also the RSM figure, or it is delegate, yep. And so you go in there, and they ask you questions about this and that, and about your past and what you like as a kid even. And they said, you're pretty young, because I was still, I wasn't 18, then when that happened, I was still just 17 when they interviewed me, because I they thought, oh, we'll give him an interview, this bloke, and then have a bit of a laugh. And they said, we're pretty young. And I said, I'm young. I said, I know what I'm doing. And then I said, I'm gonna go there one way or another. So if you want me to wait, by all means, because you know, most blokes still in those days that come from battalions, and like I do today, you know, from other parts of the Army, and they normally reasonably experience before they go for selection, whereas I had no real unit experience, rather than just training and being a cracker of that sort of stuff. And I said, you want to not be back, because I'm fair enough, but I'll be back. I'm not going to go away now. The next No, I didn't hear any more about it. And next thing, I'm on a plane to the west, you know. So they thought, you know, this bloke tells good jokes or something, we'll put him on the trip. Nice.

Andy Fermo: 13:39

And how did that put you having that experience, coming from a training command straight into the selection process, which kind of reminds me a bit at the moment they've got it. It's called the DRS scheme, which is the direct recruiting scheme, where cut series will come off the street, and then they'll go straight through the training and then into the selection process for Commando. So that was at my time as well. It's probably changed now somehow. But when you went there, how did that training put you in the stead for you hadn't been you mentioned the guys come from the battalions have got that groundwork and that experience. But did you think that was a detriment to you coming there from a training command and then going in, or was it more about I'm ready for this adventure and and I'm pretty much a blank slate to absorb what you're training me with, what was the awesome camp?

Unknown: 14:23

There's a couple of aspects of this, right? So the first thing is that I'm 17. Just turned 18 at the Boxing Day. By the time I did selection, I just turned 18, which was the youngest in the selection group. There was quite a number of us. And I think 23 finished, and only five of us, or six of us were passed as it turned out. So I went in with the attitude, let's This is great. Let's have a crack at this. And I that was my full attitude since when I was a kid, and people say, Oh, selection was really hard and things like that, but I can't remember it as being hard at all. I just loved it. I thought it was funny. It was deadly, deadly serious at the same time. But I was up. I said, if I'm not good enough, I'll kick me up. Yeah, but I'll leave it. I'm going to have a crack at this. So there was that sort of young attitude, if you like, and made a good background for that. And the second thing is, when you say, oh, did you think it was a detriment? I didn't have any sense of that at all. In a sense, it was blind ignorance. Yeah, I just loved it. I loved all the tests, I loved the hardship, I loved the sacrifice that you need for this sort of thing. And I, like, you know, it was interesting. I remember on a run one time and blokes were falling out and crashing. And I thought, This is shit up. Do you know I'm still here, and these blokes are falling away, and they're a lot more experienced than I am. And I thought, This is shit up. This is great, you know? So the other thing about it is selection. That's always been in my mind, and certainly when I've been involved with the selection process in various ways in the regiment, what that what they're recruiting is what they're and selecting is the personality of the guy. A lot of people who are very experienced soldiers, they don't make it sometimes. So it's not about your military skills or not really. It's about whether you're going to keep getting back up after seven times, knock down and get up again. And that's got nothing to do with real military skills, really, in many ways, you can absorb that through your military career and all that. But they're looking for a personality type. And so I obviously, as far as they were concerned, because they passed me in the end, out of a I think they laughed, reckon I told good jokes or something. But they they were looking for that type of person, so I didn't have any sense of detriment, though I'm not as good as these guys, or because there were some very experienced soldiers there, but so a lot of them didn't make it, because then their attitudes were different, or whatever the case might be. There's

Andy Fermo: 16:55

those traits within that inherent personality trait, within the type of personality that is really a lot of the other stuff can be trained, or you can learn those bits. But if you're looking at a baseline type of personality values and all those other course bits of that make up the person that would be most suited to that environment, that's what they're looking for. That's what

Unknown: 17:16

you're saying. You know, I think the general philosophy right through these days is they have a these days have a pretty long reinforcement cycle, so where they take that piece of clay and they give them all the skills they need to do a difficult job down the track. So in those days, of course, because the wall was on, we got a lot of that sort of training when we went to our squadron, once we graduated and got badged and did the Para course, and then we went to the squadron and you learned all of that from guys who just come back from Vietnam, other Patrol members and senior guys. He didn't learn on the job, in a sense, from doing a lot of hard training, yeah, including a couple of months in Papua New Guinea before he went the infantry. Went to conundrum and innisfailos later on, and so they were had that. But the squadron did two, two months flat out in Papua, New Guinea, which is hard yards. Yeah,

Andy Fermo: 18:08

it's just knowing that terrain, that terrain was just crazy, like I did Kokoda last year. And it's, it's here to do that with the full pack. And I just think back to the when you're going tactical and you're trying to go through, you're not using those bloody pathfinding yourself, it's, yeah, it's

Unknown: 18:26

hard yards up there. So, very difficult. Drone, you think back to the Kokoda boys in the second, 14th and 39 battalion against the Japs era. I think Jesus, hard yards supplied over that. Drone,

Andy Fermo: 18:37

well, yeah. And or even pulling the boys up, and, you know, when they were injured, and slinging them over a shoulder and having to climb up and take all those other big bloody weapons. I just was gobsmacked when you actually see it for real, and having to do it, yeah, no, it's

Unknown: 18:50

a good experience for you. That one

Andy Fermo: 18:52

absolutely and so that puts you in good stead, then for Vietnam. So you, from what I'm hearing, Robert, is that you're pretty much as one of the younger blokes or the youngest at that time, yeah, within a squadron, then bang, you did your two months in Papua. Was it straight over to Vietnam?

Unknown: 19:08

No, the thing was that when you go, I did my selection in this first half of the years, I think around about, around about March, April, something like that. And then from there, we went over to did the parachute course over in those days, William Town Center now, but and then after that, you we then use allocated the two squadron. And two Squadron were the next to gozing. So then we did, we trained with our brothers for 10 months, or something, two months of which was in Papua, New Guinea. But all of these other we did a lot of training exercises, courses and all sorts of things. So all of that, what they call now the reinforcement cycle. We do a lot of courses and a lot of training over a long period of time. It was all done within the squadron, and you're working with the guys you're going to fight with, yeah. So it's a very comprehensive thing, and some people. Yeah, some people fell by the wayside. They said, Oh, this is not for me, or they move squadrons or something like that, because they had different personal issues, family or whatever. But most guys were right into it and cracking on. So it was and that had been going on. We were the last squadron in Vietnam, as it turned out, yeah, but all the squadrons, that's what it was a three year cycle. It wasn't a trickle system, it was a unit system. Yep, you're with your squadron. And that's why people, when they think back to the redwood days, especially in those days, they always remember that squadron they were with, because they spent a lot of time in there with the blokes and everything. It was good,

Andy Fermo: 20:34

absolutely. And that was the last platoon that went over with our squadron two squadron was the last rotation. So you got there, you're almost missed out, but you got there, right? You got Yes,

Unknown: 20:45

you know, yes. I gotta say, when they pulled the pin, I think the old golf Whitlam was a was a blow in charge at that time, and they'd already decided before he came on, that they were gonna finish up, because of the Americans were in their processes and all that. But I gotta, I loved operations. I just asked me all over. And so I was a scout there, and I reveled him being a scout, being up the front. And they had a tremendous, bloody marvelous patrol commander. And the marvelous, you probably know this name Hans Fleer was our patrol two. IC, DCM, yes. So our patrol was a was a cracker, one great patrol commander, grand Brammer. And so I was in pretty good hands by the time I got to Vietnam, and we did a great job there. And there was some an interesting time there as well. Apart from we did a lot of operations, there lot of missions, a lot of patrols. But one of the, one of the highlights for me, in a sense, was working with a SEAL team too. Oh yeah. Cool down the Delta. We used to do exchanges with them, and now they'd send some of our patrols down. We work in with their their platoons. We were with November platoon down in Dong tam for a couple of weeks, and it was just brilliant. I did four ups with them, and it was just something else. I just loved it then. But so when they pulled the pin on us, I thought, you're on. We still got a few things to do here. Honestly, I was a little bit pissed off. I was glad to have survived. Yeah, I can't say I've never been afraid of death, but as a soldier, you're more afraid of having your arm shot off or something like that. What are you going to do with that? Then it's a challenge. Death doesn't then it still doesn't concern me, really. It's the big sleep because he was we had some we worked hard in the squadron. We did a lot of patrols. We had a lot, all of our corporals and sergeants and and, and some of our, couple of our officers were ex Vietnam. They've already done it to, yep, with it, with it. So we're in very good hands. The leadership was excellent and

Andy Fermo: 22:47

by and large. And did you go? So just on that, though, Robert, so when you did go over with the blokes that you trained with the head shed, or the sort of command group that you're talking about, they already had that experience from a couple of rotations, or at least one. So the guys that were actually in the particular platoon, had they been over as well, or there was a quite a fair bit of

Unknown: 23:07

experience, I'll give me. So I was in, I was in F troop for courage, right? And F troop in two, sort of but so in my there was, there's five patrols in the troop, by and large, if you're up to strike. One is, which is run by the in those second lieutenant, yeah, Commander, yeah. Not much experience still, is still. Most of them were pretty reasonable. And ours Brian Russell, he was pretty, pretty reasonable. But then you've got a troop Sergeant who's probably on his third sort of tour. Now, these are 12 month tours, these tours we're talking about, right? Yeah, long one, so and so in my the patrol commanders in my troop, you had so, you had the two sergeants, three, yeah, two sergeants had done a previous stance with with two squadron in 68 and then two of us sergeants were on their fourth operational tour after Doug lawnio, they've done two tours with a with they were on the second tour with sa Squadron, and they'd also done a tour of the training team as Warren officers. Wow. And one, one of them, Dave shield, was DCM from that time as well. Yeah. We had two DCM winners, which is one on the VC in those days in the troop, and we had quite a number of blokes who were very experienced. And then you had first time guys like myself in the squadron for the first tour, about probably making up about a third, or bitter, not a half of the troops. So it was a very experienced troops. And as a result, and that was the case right through the six years of our squadrons went there. Every squadron got two, two trips out of it. We did an eight month tour at the end. So it wasn't a 12 month tour for us. Hence my chagrin.

Andy Fermo: 24:50

He ripping me off. Two months type thing, ripping

Unknown: 24:53

me off, but, but so these guys had a huge, huge amount of experience. And as a result, when you look at the results of the associated. In in Vietnam, I think we only had, I think we had one guy. We lost people, both from accidents and things like that, but the earlier, one guy died of wounds from Kia sort of thing, contact, and we did extremely well. We probably had the best record in Vietnam of any unit there, of all their nations, at a guess of what we did, I often say flippantly to to civilians. They said, why'd you join? That must be really crook. And I said, No, I joined essays because I heard they had really low casualties. So I thought that's a good place to go in the war. But that's just my throwaway line. A couple of bees.

Andy Fermo: 25:41

Yeah, I love to hear the different points of view and those experiences of how you come in. And so in that eight times you touched on it with the one that one Kia, and then the other injuries and that during your tour. Now, and I'm not going to ask about any sort of operational details with the with all those missions that you were doing. What was that the most rewarding thing that I don't really ask this when you were there, what were some of the rewarding things that you did, like in terms of for you personally, in from a growth perspective of being on deployments with the unit that you

Unknown: 26:13

were with, I was completely in focus and narrow minded towards my job as a patrol Scout, and I always really in the piece with The management. I thought scout is just the guy that put out the front that anyone can do it. But as I, as it turned out, I found that it was an actual particular skill set, in a sense, but mainly personality. Sense, personality, Cent, I thought eventually, and because everyone was cross trained in the patrol of four or five blokes, and I was a medic as well patrol here, so as medic and stuff, that was my first course, actually, and in the end, at the end of my time in there, so I cross trained in just about every skill there, just about with everyone and um, but I was completely focused in on being the guy out the front. So I had 180 degrees out in front of me. I found, to my found, to my surprise, that I also had the ground in front of me. My footsteps. I walked over a I nearly walked over a 500 pound bomb that hadn't exploded one time in the J Yeah. And my patrol commander, who was incredibly supportive, because he'd been a scout himself, and he taught me to scout Well, yeah. And he said, You got to look down there, mate, look at that. And I'm just about crap myself. He said, Yeah, step on this bomb there. So I learned, you learn like that from and I looked there, and patrol commander look in the trees over the top of me. So I didn't have to look in the trees, and pretty much I didn't have to worry about that, because I knew he he had me back there, and he was doing that. So I had 180 degrees, and that was me against the world, right? Me against all bad going, yeah. And I thought that was a pretty good Mitch mix. Loved it, and so I was really focused on doing a fantastic job as best I could. And I used to talk to other scouts all the time. I've got a particular philosophy, or media of them, but one of them is every day is a school day. So I like talking to other people in my line of work and seeing how they did it and how their patrol commanders worked them, and everyone was a bit different. So you gain a lot of knowledge from that sort of professional sort of cross, cross information. Absolutely, no, if you want to. And I certainly wanted to. I wanted to be the best that I could be. Yeah,

Andy Fermo: 28:26

that's right. And saying that and this, we'll talk to this a bit later on, as we progress through to what you're doing now, that cross training and being able to share that knowledge, as opposed to just keeping it in, actually helps you be able to become that better soldier, or whoever it is, from that professional point of view, because you're really taking in all those bits, and then you could go, Look, I like that. I don't like that. Why did you do it this way? Maybe if the situation come around, I can better myself. And I think that makes much more rounded soldier. Anyway,

Unknown: 28:54

I think it does, as we were saying before, it's not something necessarily that you can learn if you haven't got that attitude, yeah, anyway, you just, you might be a good soldier or but you're not a great soldier, or you're not being able to inspire others, and so on. So I, I was brought this, brought home to this business of a scouting one of the other guys actually was Leto, my old mate mentioned, yeah, he was in another patrol in there, and he's quite a good one as well. And he got bitten by a spider or something out of patrol. After about two days out, he was pretty crook, and the signal came back in with the old Moscow and said, I need to replace the scout. I need a scout. I didn't want to anyone else he won the scout. So the word went around the hill there, said, right, who we got in, who we got here, who's a scout? And they wouldn't. They weren't thinking about just anybody. They needed a particular Scout to replace a scout. And I thought, and that's what happened, and I was I already had my rations for another mission. Than that. So I was given two hours notice to be on the chopper to go and replace, as it turned out, and went out and a little right out in the bush, long way behind the lines in a little bell Sue chopper with me and the pilot, and with me and my gear and that. And I also took a sandbag full of Bucky milks and things

Andy Fermo: 30:19

like that. Oh yeah. So yeah, always come bearing gifts long, yeah,

Unknown: 30:24

I remember that. But so that was quite an experience. But I was taken by the fact that there were two of us on the Hill who were scouts at that time, who were available, but the other I had the reversions already for a patrol, and the other guy was further back in the prep sort of time. And so I was picked for that, get on the chopper sort of stuff. Yeah. So that was a bit of an illuminating thing to me, that so scouting, to me was, as it turned out, it was a big deal, and a lot of guys would never do that job, because they think, no, I don't like it or whatever, but they were really happy being a SIG or a man or a demo demolition guy or all those. And so there's a few guys who really love that scouting thing. It's a bit, it's a bit sort of gunslinger ish,

Andy Fermo: 31:05

yeah, like I said, it takes a different type of personality, but even within certain specific roles, within, uh, within a team, to go, yeah, no, I'm happy to be able to do that. Like in a traditional section. It's like he could be number one or number two, body back, and you go, that's not the best way to be able to paint that bloody role, is it? But

Unknown: 31:22

as a result, you know, they were very cognizant of this. So they always had the best people for the best jobs within the patrol in terms, but you're all cross trained, you could still do the other jobs, yeah. But that way the patrols was a, it's a pursuit of excellent selection sort of process and and it worked pretty well. I think for most patrols that way, they write people for the right, right tasks and things amazing. And the it was interesting. You're one of our, one of our big strengths, if we messed up, the old troop sergeant and me were at opposite ends of the a scale. That a bit of a generational clash there, I think so I used to, I didn't like being in the base much. I was always itching to get out of rocks, and so I used to play up a bit here and there, no doubt. And he's, he always said, Ron, are you blokes? You mess up anymore? I'm going to send you down the hill, and you'll be wearing one of those big brown hats in the battalion. Be a poor Scout doing 20 clicks a day down there. And then, oh no, don't throw me in the rivals. It was a bit of a laugh, but it was so it was a very you're with you. You're with guys. You trained with our teams of me for a long time. You Have you fought with them. And the bonds as from your own experience going back to your operational time, very strong. And when our patrol has eventually died we were all surprised. We thought he'd be the last one to go, but he died of cancer. But we, we've had a basically a lover food, for 50 odd years with all their guys in the patrol, and it's just like yesterday when you see him. And so it's an incredible bond. And you know, yeah, that's

Andy Fermo: 32:57

right, it could be a couple of years between catch ups, but within 10, within five minutes, you're back to the the old antics again, and it's like your bloody in your 20s again, right? That's right, running amok, doing you're doing what you do.

Unknown: 33:11

I still call myself an elderly teenager, so, yeah, it's cool. So I gotta, I'm too old. They won't give me a gun anymore, so I'm gonna race cars and things like that.

Andy Fermo: 33:20

Oh, exactly. And we'll get to that. I did ask about what was some of those more pivotal points? Robert, I'm gonna go to the other end of the scale there. And obviously we could talk a bit more about the post Vietnam part. Yeah, so in terms of the traumas and that there, how, what was it that you did when you were exposed? And I'm mindful of any details, so I'm

Unknown: 33:40

going to try and work this as best. Think, I think you can talk about this in a couple of facets, or a few facets, really. But one is that when you're in a highly trained group, even though you talk about an essays patrolling those days and immediately, the missions they would carry out today are the similar you're going into the behind their lines, as the cliche goes, we're going into their territory, not ours, long way from help. So the further away you were from help, by the time you're through the you might be on the run even. And you put the little code word radio thing, we need to get out of here in a hurry, he might be on the run. You're always outnumbered just about all the time by a lot. Yeah, we're

Andy Fermo: 34:19

to patrol, patrol the five, well, it's

Unknown: 34:22

That's right, so, so that's the thing that that we used to think about, because that's our job. So that's fine, and we were very confident, obviously, with what we could do and everything. But if you gave yourself time to think about and you could probably be worried about it, but everyone was getting stuck into their job, really. So that's a good coping mechanism for against trauma and things like that. A lot of people saw a lot of things, and it was interesting that I had very good coping mechanism for such a long time that I used to think PTSD. I never knew anything about that, and most blokes were the same. It comes it takes a long time to be to realize or get a group. Or unravel, or sometimes, so I'm late comer to it in terms of diagnosis, yeah, but certainly you go through the same trauma. But it was interesting when I finally, was finally diagnosed with PTSD, for example, it run up to that various psychologists and psychologists are saying, what was the incident? That that was a traumatic incident. I said I could never think of an incident. I could never what incident, I don't know, and I was just still a job, but it, but I figured out after a while that actually there was 100 incidents, but I just thought that was normal job, right? Yeah, that's all part of the job, isn't it? You just pick yourself up and get on with it and and you're trained to do that, and also your personality that they select is able to handle that generally? No, you really use never quits guy. You keep on getting back up. You keep on planning again. And that's the nature of special forces in general, I think, no doubt, and all the rest of it. But so I had trouble coming up with any trauma. But I do remember one, one particular thing I for my first the mission with the SEAL team. What they used to do the SEAL team was like the bad boys of the US Navy in those days. They weren't highly regarded. They were real cowboys, regarded as real outlaw, cowboy type of people. And they have to, they had to get their own intelligence, basically, and then concoct their own missions. They used to do these, what they call the Intel runs that the diary the captain of the platoon. Their platoons are about 15 people, yeah, it's run by a Navy Lieutenant orbs. That's for the rank in the seals and the chief Patty officers and all that sort of stuff. And they used to do these Intel runs. So you go around all these different bases, he'd dress in his navy greens with his cap and as a Navy type of officer. And then he had three bad guys dressed in jeans and T shirts and for beer in the in this Jeep as his protection group. And I went along as one of those guys on this trip. We went and we, geez, we transverse some really bad country, getting from one base to another base to talk to their intel guys and say who you got and what's happening in your district and all this sort of thing. That's how they concocted their missions, right? They didn't have an over and over. They weren't in part of the Navy intelligence, in a sense, they go around and cook up their own missions, which, which was always pretty, pretty good, successful. But the the platoon, before November platoon was, I'm pretty sure it was x ray platoon, and they were decimated in a riverine operation. They were they had a lot of casualties and dead and stuff like that. So it was dangerous stuff down the door. There's, there was a huge number of baddies down there, and it was highly populated area. So we had to cross this river, the big river, and we got on this big ferry. And I remember there's this us. It was a, it was probably an Air Force Jeep which had been swiped with the bolt cutters off a tree in Saigon, and then they painted US Navy on it. That's how they used to get their vehicles, these guys. And so we're in this now new Navy Jeep, and sitting in this and I always remember this later on. I didn't think of it at the time because I was very tense, ready to shoot anybody, because we're in this we're surrounded by South Vietnamese civilians, mainly, but you but many of them could have been BC, all of that, and they're all looking at us with daggers. And there was like 300 we're surrounded by 300 400 people. And this thing took about half an hour to cross a river and stuff like that. And I always remember back to that, thinking that was pretty traumatic. Actually, we were ready to die. Basically, yes, we got caught up in this ferry, and anyway, nothing happened. It was fine. You don't have to have things happen. No, no. Individual married, no. And I don't think I made it up. All the other guys felt the same. Said we got out there. We breathe easy. We thought another one

Andy Fermo: 38:58

that's right, that's it's that impending. It's that impending feeling of something that's gonna go down, and it could go either one of two ways, and could happen pretty bloody quickly. And if you go somewhere and you're picking up on that vibe, you got 300 400 people look at this. You're like, oh yeah, you're not supposed to be here, mate. I think the way you're meant to be somewhere else, that that sort of feeling.

Unknown: 39:19

But we were ready to down blazing. We didn't have safe safety on the weapons. We were ready to rock, yeah. And, but it was, this is the end of it.

Andy Fermo: 39:28

Absolutely. Yeah. And, like we mentioned before, Robert that as well, is that when they first diagnosed you, and they are the specialists asking all these questions that complex PTSD piece about as from speaking with previous guests with the complex that's a very big that's a very real thing that compounding many incidents is not just one, but many. Over a long time, your body still has the output of this and the symptoms from a traumatic event. You know what I mean? It's the traumatic event, whether it's a singular one or and so moving forward. Forward from just an

Unknown: 40:01

addition to that, yeah, like all of our guys, like all of our guys in the regiment there, the shooters anyway, yeah, we had a lot of injuries because the training is very difficult, and you probably know that from your own experience from pre regiment, but the training is difficult, it's very realistic, and we've lost a lot more people in training than we ever have on operations. But so you're always you've got a lot of injuries going on, which is connected with the mental side of things as well, right? Because you're overcoming various levels of pain on a fairly normal basis. Uh, many of the guys are like that, and all our guys have been like that, all the operators and some are fortunate, the more fortunate than others. I don't have any mental issues as it with me, took a long time for me to unravel, because I, when I went to my first proper psychiatrist, probably in in early 2000s like, probably about 2002 three or something like that. That was what was that? It was like 30 years after the war sort of thing, and I've been but I've been a soldier for 21 years as well, doing all the training, as well as other operations and stuff. But the said to me that she had a big file on me right after only seven business and I thought, What's in that pile? And because I was I finally just said, I'll just tell them what they asked me. I won't sell myself as something else, or, yeah, as you do. I'll just tell it as it is and just be and see what they're making that which I was, and she had a scrappy follow me, and she said, I said, Well, I must be I'm pretty good, aren't I? She said, No, really. And I said, she said, You got and this is what she said. I don't know with her, just quoting her, whether why she said this, I don't know. I'm still not completely believing it. But so you got one of the worst cases of PTSD I've seen in a bit. I'm veteran. I said that can't be, right? I didn't see much. I didn't do much. I didn't have people dying around me, like in Kokoda or something. He didn't have blokes getting their legs that aren't blown off. Blah, blah, blah. I didn't see a lot of that. Saw a little bit, and you were there, but not much. And but it's all these other all these other dramatic times and other injuries and things like that, nearly in a training accident or something like that. But she said, but also you've got one of the best coping mechanisms that I've ever seen from anybody that made me feel a little bit better. But she said, That's why you've been able to keep on going. And I thought, crikey, that was like news to me, all that. And I thought, Oh, okay. In fact, she said, I I'd like you to come back. I've got a few psychiatric psychiatrist colleagues that I'd like to get together, and I'll get them, I'll get you to tell them how you do that stuff. And I thought, hell no, right, no, I'm not going to do that. That's a bridge too far for me. I was having a hard enough time telling the truth over six, seven visits tonight. It was up in Ipswich, and I had to drive back home each time. And I nearly killed myself a few times a traffic accidents, because my head wasn't there. Yes. So each session, every once, every few weeks, or three weeks or something, was a trauma in itself, in a sense, pissing up basically no

Andy Fermo: 43:17

worries about Hold on. I'm just going to pause you there for a moment, because, we fast forwarded a lot in terms of that sort from the post Vietnam to your career. I just want to back it up so then that way, we can have that precedent of you coming into what happened when things started to unravel, like in those early 2000s when you started seeing a psychic, and when all these, all these other bits started simmering to the top right. So you served your 21 years and post Vietnam. Then there was that period where it was a bit of a peacetime army for a while afterwards. But that didn't detract from, because you guys, you said that there was some really crazy you trained hard to be able to do your things. And there was some sort of, obviously, some traumas there, from some near misses and the like from, from all those other pieces. Now, during what was it? Can I see what, what it was like, because your, your, your mindset was different in terms of, there was a lot of Vietnam veterans that sort of say as well, and, and not detracting from that.

Unknown: 44:15

I mean, they, I remember they, they had a dress parade or something like that, where people had to wear their medals and all that sort of stuff. And it was really interesting. So about by 75 for example, there was still a very high proportion of Vietnam veterans there with their medals on, yeah, which is very unusual in a post war unit across the board, yeah, because most guys go through the war when they get out, and then the new guys come in and etc. So there was so there was a lot of experience. The the average age of the regiment in those days was about 2728 Yeah, very experienced guys staying in the waiting for the next mission, right, waiting for the next war. Remember when I left the seal compound in Dong Tam, their little enclave there? And we said to you later, boys, and one of the seals yelled out, see your next war man. Love that. But so that's what a lot of guys are, professional soldiers who were waiting for the next war to come along. And they trained very hard right through the 80s and 90s and all that. And that's one of the reasons why the boys did, did pretty well in, you know, places like Iraq and Afghanistan and things like that, because all that, all of those guys waiting for the next war, training their guts out, yeah, and developing and innovating and and all of that. So that's well known, that's well received in the regiment, actually, yes, even though they didn't go anywhere, there's a long time of peace and but it was that effort that was there put in. So I one thing with me. I was able to get selected in the regiment early for unconventional warfare, right? So this actually became my specialty in my career. Is, and it still is, in a sense, what I think about. It's all about guerrilla warfare and all sorts of operations, special operations around that. So that was really interesting to me. Even they had a lot of very experienced guys in there, in that small group that we did there. And so we're going back now to 73 and I did that until 7070 right through for about 18 months or so. And then they started thinking, Oh, this is a bit embarrassing. We talk about certain wars in other people's countries, back in Canberra, and, oh, I don't know, a bit of bit of calm this down, a bit. But of course, it's a very important set of skills. And in fact, one regiment now has got the, again, has got the the responsibility for that area. And that sort of when they Kai by sad. I thought, there's nothing going on here. I'm not a peacetime soldier, really. So I thought, No, we're gonna go and I so I thought that I'd do a language course, because they, they seemed to open up a world of different things. Yeah, we went over there thinking I was going to do Indonesian because we're done Indonesian language in the UW side of things and all that. Those one of the skills areas, and I did pretty well with the aptitude, was I was always right. I'll go over and have a year doing Indonesian and playing ping pong most of time, because having party on in point cook radical languages for 12 months, I went over there and I saw my name on the on the Chinese course. There was six of us on the course. We worked like buggers the whole year, flat out, and they'll end on still wet and party. So after that, I went into intelligence, right? And as I mentioned to you before, worked cumulatively with then called defense signals director DSD, now called ASD for about five years, and did a lot of things in there. And that was pretty interesting. And two years of that I was in, I lived in Hong Kong, for example, 600 yep, there on the sharp end of the thing, so to speak. And this was a big there was another foot in another camp in a sense of professionalism. And then I was coming back from, I was coming back from, from Hong Kong in right at the end of 1979 I figured that there's nothing left for me to do in the army. There's no war on. So I couldn't be very satisfied. I thought, I'm not a peacetime dude. I'm not interested in that. I'm interested in operations. So I thought, I'll get out, and the next big thing is business. I'll go into operations in business. So with my background and language and all that, I thought, I'll start. I'll be a consultant to help Australian people, the Australian companies, do business in Chinese. Oh, yeah. And I like challenges. I don't like doing easy stuff. And when I got back my my old troop commander from UW ran me up, and he says, I'm picking up a squadron, and then what are you doing? I said, I'm getting out you've done 12 years or whatever it was. It's just peacetime stuff. He said, I'm picking up a squadron. I want you to come back and and be with us in the squadron, because it'll fair bit of time for me, obviously, from the UW days and in that Robo tree. And he and I said, no, no. And he said, I said, I've done all that before. And he said, No. He said, I'm not talking about being an operator from the on the that side of it. I'm talking about running my Intel for me. And I went, Oh, yeah, alright, no, I'm still getting there. But half an hour later, the old house banging away. And I gave him a ring and said,

Andy Fermo: 49:21

hey, the car was dangling down there ready for you to snap at it. Right? Boom,

Unknown: 49:26

yeah, he knew what to say to me. So the old regiment heart got me as I the candle started to flicker again, so I went back there. And then I had a really interesting time in the next few years in the regiment where I did all the Intel side of it. And then those days, it wasn't like now, where you've got a huge Intel overview and Overwatch and collaboration with a whole bunch of different agencies, but in those days we were probably we had to generate it. So I was in a really good position, because I'd done all the operations side pretty much, and certainly in the unconventional side. As well, yes. So I was able to basically be the squadron IO type of figure and come up with some pretty innovative stuff. And given the, given my background in n UW, and also my understanding of military history, I was able to come up with some pretty good stuff. But in so did that in the war roles a bit. And then I went into, and I did two years consecutive in counter tourism work, running their intel for him, so in the squadron. So I was that was good, because I used to shoot just like the operators all the time, and did a lot of that, and did all their stuff as well. But most of the time I was doing scenarios and all sorts of things around the around Australia, and doing a lot of recces and all that sort of so it was an interesting time for me, interesting

Andy Fermo: 50:43

that you could a bit like, besides having that operational experience and being the shooter there is going to the other sort of training side there and making it you mentioned before, Robert that you want to train hard and then work easy, but you have to come up with those scenarios and all those training things to be able to take into account different things that are going on, geo politically, and then within, from different points of view, and then actually make it as realistic as you can. Right your training in those

Unknown: 51:09

days, developing a lot of collaboration with the National Intelligence agencies and things like that. So there was a, from my point of view, there was a quite a lot of cross flow of information and collaboration and training, indeed, with some of them. So then I got a couple of short stints at school of military intelligence as a, firstly, as a staff sergeant, which was a in course rank, and then, and then, as it were two, in the second trance. But I've done a lot of writing and developing in that time. And so I was picked up. I think I was the first in cool guy to pick up the infantry slot of a week. So I majored down at the island at that time, at Swan island with the special, what they call the Special Warfare wing in those days, and that was as a detachment of the headquarters of one commander regiment who had the responsibility at that time. And now they've gone back, and they've been re given that formerly, they've been given that responsibility for that theory, which is very important. And so that was interesting, that that that time was very close to when I only had one more year in the army after that, officially, before I came back and did Psyops and stuff that that two years as a we saw Mojo. There was the peak of my career, in a sense, because all of the things that I've absorbed and experienced and learned and all that I was able to put into that job. So it's a very rare thing, I think that people get that chance. Yeah, they have everything, and I'm not talking and they do a rank or having those sort of things, because that was, I'd never thought about that sort of stuff, mainly, but it was just all the skill areas and the thought process, the concepts and innovation and development all went into that one job, to me, was my sort of Everest,

Andy Fermo: 52:57

yeah, absolutely. And it's not, it is great to be able to be able to hear, yeah, absolutely. It is great to be able to hear that was that culmination of all that experience and being able to put everything in and then have that role that was there at that time ready for you to be able to go, bang, I'm going to hit the ground running.

Unknown: 53:13

It's pretty rare when you think a lot of guys, I remember a lot of guys in the regular army, they said, Oh, I went where they sent me, and I had a good crack at it, and all this sort of stuff. But they were never in a position where they were able to literally get all of that stuff and apply it into one job. And that was a fantastic, satisfying thing for me. It wasn't easy, but I don't like doing easy thing.

Andy Fermo: 53:36

We'll get to that. So when you finally decided to leave that sort of second time around, old mate, didn't whack a carrot in. Did you leave on your terms or we Yeah,

Unknown: 53:44

pretty much they actually came my court said at that time was just interesting, and sometimes I've I've never regret things that I've done or haven't done even, but they came to me and said, Oh, we've got a good posting for you. We're going to send you back to the regiment, as a way one do the int side for the regiment now. And I thought, No, I I thought it was still peace time. And I thought, That sounds interesting. I could be innovative there, and I could make it, make the role well. And they thought I'd die for the chance, right? And I surprised them. I said, No, I don't think so. I'm going to get out. I'm going to I'd like to go back as an instructor to smi and they went, what? Because we'd bought a block of land up here in Mount temporary. And I thought, No, I've got to retire. I was some like 38 3940 or whatever it was. And I thought, I've had a career in the military. It's peace time. If it was war time, I'd never leave. But it was peace time, and I thought, I've got to make another career. I'm young, and I've seen all these guys that stay in the army for a long time to just breathe in there, being there, yeah, for me. So I thought I said, No. Yeah, even though that was a sort of absolute plum thing, they were offering me, really, and it would have been instrumental. Later on, I'd still be there and we would, I would have been on operations 10 years later, but whatever, all the operations that came about eight, 910, years later. But I So, I said no. And so we built a house, and all this I retired. And then about the year or two after that, I was, I went in and did as I mentioned before, consulting one year, close to a year back in smi as you know, normally, I was a way to training officer with the British exchange officer doing all the resistance to interrogation stuff and all that kind of stuff and all that now, but I, but my main job there was to help develop psyops, which I was one of our specialties in UW. So that was, that was an interesting time. It's the next big thing. So go in the business, try and do the best I can there and make money and do all that business stuff that was pretty much my career. Was

Andy Fermo: 55:55

that, did you end up doing that same model that you mentioned before, like going in and helping people build business overseas. They're using No,

Unknown: 56:03

I just went in and I I thought, we're going to teach myself this stuff. So I learned to push myself to do a lot of things in sales and marketing and learn, learn all that stuff. And because that's the biggest thing in business, really, the other people that get paid the most typically. And so I pushed myself to do that, and but I realized actually, I'd been in sales all my time in the military, telling, usually telling people they didn't things I didn't want to hear, selling ideas and innovation and in the things that I'd be repurposing, though there's special force units, they're in the business of trying to sell themselves all the time, so they get another job. That's the name of the game release. And so that was the right side. I've been working for myself pretty much for the last till I retired, officially, around about 2014 I got out by the time I finished that extra bit in the full time home reserve there sign up. So I'd done, I'd had about, that was about 1994 or something like that, probably about 20 years then I went into business, and I was simultaneously, in many cases, I was helping people buy investment properties and things like that. A lot of things in sales, marketing, I was worked for a terrific friend of mine, very close friend of mine, with the crisis and emergency management consultancy around the world, dealing with them, big business teams and stuff like that was built. And so I was able to bring some of that military experience into that sort of field, which is good. And then finally, I thought, no that. And I met a guy who was by the, I'll go back a step in 2002 1002 or one or two. I was going what I describe as going out the door backwards, right, going back in the toilet bowl. I was starting to unravel a bit, and mentally, and what's this all about? Just rubbish sort of thing. And so I, being me, I decided I needed something to do while I was going out the back door was I was starting to think about taking taking pictures of me off the walls and doing all that stuff right getting ready. And I thought, I need to do something while I'm doing all that, because I don't like being inactive. So I said I've got a couple of Alfa Romeos there that I've always liked and and had as road cars, and then I'll restore them for my sons and give them a car before I head off, before I go. And I wasn't, I wouldn't say I was suicidal, but I was in that downward spiral, right? Yes, and because making money for making money is isn't anything meaningful, not to me anyway. So I've lost this meaning in my life. In a sense, I had a great family, everything like that. From my own personal standpoint, I wasn't doing anything meaningful, and that started to unravel me. I wasn't able to, I said, coping mechanisms. Who cares? I went to the Alfred Motor Club in Brisbane, and I found to get a few tips on how to restore these cars and stuff like that. And I found these guys, a lot of them were racing around the track, and their Alpha Romeos competing every couple of weeks and things like that, went Oh. And the old blame started to cut the off competition stuff. And I thought that's something even better that I can do while I'm going out the back door. So I started looking at actually finding an old car, old alpha that I could do up and maybe do a bit of that before I left and and that's what took me into competition. And I found, I found that track racing was all right, but it's a bit, it's sort of bit like playing golf. You're trying to perfect the swing hit that perfect corner the split second quicker than around the corner that he did last time. There's only so many corners, but I was invited to have a look at tarmac rally, where rallying and DiRT Rally is a bit expensive on tyres and all those sort of things, and damage to the car picked up tarmac rally. And I like fingering through the hills anyway. And so I had a look at that. And I said, Well, what's the hardest thing you can do? Then they said, Oh, target Tasmania is the hardest. Hardly anyone does that. And I said, Oh, that sounds like me.

Andy Fermo: 1:00:07

There's the challenge, right? Yeah, I

Unknown: 1:00:09

just, I just can't help myself anyways. So I started having a meaningful thing. I started having goals again and things like that. And then target Tasmania was, it was for me. Then it was very expensive and harder to get your car ready, and a long way to go and all this sort of thing. So I did a sort of a step up thing in target in classic Adelaide in 2003 and my first major, as I call it now, and and that saved me really going back, you know, I thought this is very uplifting. This area. All these guys are all submitting crews and that. But they're all some of them are quite wealthy, some of them not so wealthy, and they're all pursuing excellence here. They're working in small teams. Sounds like, yeah, so it saved me, and I got my website. I've said that in the blurb, yeah, saved me there and and then. So I continue with that. So I I was able to save myself and not go down the Googler. Can I? Can

Andy Fermo: 1:01:01

I just pause that bit there because of this? I think it's really important with what you've just said there, and I want to unpack that a little bit more. Robert, if we could please

Claire Fermo: 1:01:11

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