S05E20 - Robert Kilsby (ex SAS & Mountain Road Racing) pt2

In this second part of the Invisible Injuries podcast with Robert Kilsby, Robert and Andy Fermo continue the conversation by diving into Robert’s post-military challenges, including his struggles with unraveling mental health and finding purpose after service. Robert recounts his transition from the military and how his drive for excellence kept him going, but he eventually hit a breaking point, leading him to seek help for his mental health. He describes the difficulty of finding the right support and the frustration of navigating the mental health system. However, through persistence, Robert was able to connect with a specialist who helped him better understand his PTSD and how to cope.

The episode then shifts focus to Robert’s passion for motorsport and how he found healing through racing. His experiences in motorsport, particularly tarmac rallying, became a critical part of his recovery, giving him a renewed sense of purpose. Robert shares how his work with Mountain Road Racing, a team that supports veterans through motorsport, is now helping others like him. He discusses the challenges of setting up the team and the importance of providing veterans with meaningful experiences. The episode concludes with Robert's reflections on resilience, coping mechanisms, and his mission to give veterans a chance to rediscover their passion and engage with life once again.

Key Takeaway 

• Struggling with Purpose - Robert struggled to find purpose after leaving the military, leading to feelings of unraveling.
• Coping Mechanisms - Despite his PTSD, Robert’s strong coping mechanisms helped him push forward, though they eventually needed professional support.
• Seeking Help for Others - Robert initially sought mental health support for the sake of his family, not recognising his own need for help.
• Importance of Persistence - Persistence in finding the right mental health support made a significant difference in Robert’s journey.
• Motorsport as Healing - Motorsport, particularly tarmac rallying, became a way for Robert to rediscover his purpose and passion.
• Veteran Support - Through his work with Mountain Road Racing, Robert now helps other veterans engage with life and find meaning through motorsport.
• Building a Support System - Surrounding yourself with the right team, including medical and professional support, is essential to overcoming challenges.
• Engagement in Recovery - The key to recovery for veterans is finding activities that engage them, helping them reconnect with life outside the military.
• Structured Challenges - The structure and challenges of motorsport provide a familiar and supportive environment for veterans.
• Legacy of Support - Robert is building a legacy of veteran support through Mountain Road Racing, offering experiential opportunities to others.

Contact -  Robert Kilsby
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/mountainroadracing
Website: https://www.mountainroadracing.au/about-us
Help Lines Open Arms (VVCS) | Lifeline | RedSix app

"RESPECT, NO POLITICS, WE'RE VOLUNTEERS"

Disclaimer: The accounts and stories are "Real lived experiences" of our guests some of the content may trigger Post Traumatic Stress (PTS) symptoms in some of our audience. Feedback regarding other organisations, courses and initiatives remains largely unsensored. Whether its good or bad they remain the OPINION of our guests and their experiences it is important in building an accurate statistic on what really happens. 
During the course

Transcript

Claire Fermo: 0:04

I welcome to invisible injuries podcast aimed at bettering the wellbeing and mental health of veterans, first responders and their immediate support experiencing post traumatic stress by sharing the stories of the lived experiences of our peers, the support staff and the clinicians. It's our aim to make sure we can have a meaningful connection with our audience and give them the ideas for their own self care plan. If you do like what you're hearing, subscribe to the channel and share it with your friends. Lastly, these stories may be a trigger for your post traumatic stress. If your PTSD is triggered, we have links to support in the description. Or if it's immediate, please call lifeline on 1311, 14. Here's your host, Andy fermo,

Andy Fermo: 1:02

you mentioned before, and you've talked about it, but I'll just talk about you mentioned before those having those suicidal ideologies, you're in a role that you were doing, but it got to that point where you'd lost that spark, or the lost that flame, or sense of purpose, in a sense, right? You mentioned that there were things that were starting to unravel. You know, were things starting to unravel before you noticed them? Or what was that sort of story there where you go, oh shit, actually, I'm starting to go down the drain. There. Was there a specific thing or not a specific thing? But when was it that you started noticing that things weren't quite right?

Unknown: 1:37

I think really it was a I guess a lot of guys who are transitioning out of the military now and before, and especially those guys who are medically discharged and that they get out, and then all of a sudden, they're in a different dog eat dog world, and no one gives a rat's ass about them, etc, in comparison with being in that accountable, structured sort of military life generally turn up on time. And so there's that sort of drift that that what's this? So there was a bit of that in there, probably. And I, up until then, I've been working phonetically. I've been doing one two jobs at the time, all sorts of things going crazy. So my coping mechanisms were excellent, right? But then after a while, I thought making money for money started unraveling in that respect. So it's a bit, it's a bit akin to this transition thing with guys coming out of the military, yeah, but it happened to me later in terms of I've been I thought when I was making errors with personal finances, and then relationships were difficult sometimes, and thought it's just not happening. And so that's how I was. When I say I was unraveling. It wasn't I didn't want to punch people or, no, no, I get it. They're trying to kick the boss in the ass or anything like that. I work for myself, which is hard yards for most people. Anyway, I'd always do that. I believe that. I believe in myself, so I can work for myself, but a lot of people find that difficult, but I think it's the only way, because it's challenging is more rewarding if you can do it properly,

Andy Fermo: 3:05

like when you were in a sorry Robert, so when you were, when you were in that vulnerable state where you started noticing yourself unraveling, as you call it. You mentioned earlier as well, is that when you, when you finally started seeing some specialists there around about, that's a circa that around about that time. And that woman had that Compendium, the Encyclopedia Britannica, on your worst case ever, and then she said you had the coping with 5007

Unknown: 3:31

probably by the time I got to see her. But I've seen two or three other psychologists, so I remember going to I did this because of my family, because my wife. So

Andy Fermo: 3:41

that was the decision. So, so that decision to go and see someone was, what was

Unknown: 3:46

your wasn't for me. It was for my wife, for example, yeah and other family members who said I should see someone, or, yeah, something like that. And my coping mechanisms up to that point were, were exemplary, right? So I wasn't thinking that something wrong with me, or I need help, or whatever I'm saying, I'm traveling okay here. But then I thought my wife, I did it for her, really, to see what, whether there was a problem. And I remember going, my very first guy I went saw was a was an ex sergeant, infantry sergeant, who was a advocate or something in the RSL in the Gold Coast there somewhere. And I went and saw him, and I said, Don and I don't have any problems here. He said, What are you hearing at the moment? I said, What do you mean what I'm hearing? He said, are you hearing? And I said, Well, there's a lot of crickets outside the window. He said, There's tinnitus. There's no crickets outside their windows. I said, Oh, I'm really, I mean, think of this. But bunch of crickets everywhere. And he said, So the other question he asked me was, see. He said, How do you feel if you see some bad things happen to people in front of you or and I said, Nothing. Why wouldn't I feel anything? And he said, What do you mean? Nothing. I said, I'm numb to that. I I'm just, I'll go and help, and I'm trying. Going to jump in there and save, which I'd done a couple of times with crashes and things like that, but I don't feel anything there at that time. And he said, mate. He said, That's a good sign of PTSD. He said, You got a few things so you need to sort out and and so he recommended a psychiatrist, a psychologist to me, psychologist, not a psychologist. And so I went and saw her for about four four event, and she said, and she said, After this, she said, you're one of the most positive people I've ever met. She says, you're on top of you're so far advanced from a lot of other people that I but you. But somewhere in there, she said, definitely there's a few things wrong in there, but I can't put my finger on it, because I'm in the sales business, I'm saying, Yep, let's do it. This is the story. So I was too proactive. And so that was the first time. And then then I investigated. I kept doing this from my family, really, because I thought the wife had been with me for a very long time. She'd been putting up with me for a long time, and I'd made errors and this sort of stuff. And I thought, no, I better do it for her. The trouble is, I wasn't doing it for myself, right, in a sense. So I I then went to psychiatrist in the Gold Coast, who I heard was really good with Vietnam veterans, understood them and understood what they've been through and all that. And he had a lot of clients who were Vietnam veterans at that time. And I went to see him, and he said that he came to the idea that there was nothing wrong with me. And I thought to myself, mate, you need to hand in your license. By that time, I was doing a fair bit of retrospective thinking, reflective thinking, and I knew that it wasn't quite right. I did try one of the things. Then I went to this other psychiatrist who had the big follow me, and she, she did a good job, and I went about it the wrong way. So it went there first, and then I paid her for the for her time, which is probably under bucks or something, at that time for me then. And then I thought, Oh, now I've got this. I'll be able to go to DBA, I suppose, and they can deal with it or whatever. And then they, of course, had the pleasure of telling me that they can't reimburse me for all that stuff, and you've gone about it completely the right way, and you can't do this, you can't do that. And if you so, they sent me some bonds, which I didn't answer typical all this. And then I went and said, What's the story? And I said, if you don't do this, we're not going to deal with the utility 75 or utility 75 or 65 or whatever. And I said, Well, you can stick it up your jumper, mate in the war popular vernacular this. And I went back to life and kept on banging away. So there was these attempts then. And then finally, I was doing the I had a navigator with me who I'd met in another element, and he was a, he was an ex Ford observer with three hour hour in Vietnam. So he was an art who was very good at his job. And he was a company forward observer as a corporal, not as an officer. And he saw a lot of blows around him get knocked over and things like that, being in the infantry, and so he was bugging himself, but he'd use this psychiatrist that I went to, and he recommended me to go to see her. And so that's where it happened. And he said, mate, you need help, really. And I could see from him there were certain things about him that I saw him myself. Ah, and he, in due course, became a navigator with me in the 2008 target Tasmania, which is a big deal, right? Yeah. And I trained him up, and he came in and did that, and did a good, pretty reasonable job. And I saw in him, they again, like in 2003 when I when it first saved me? Yeah, I saw the impact on him. It was really good. So I kept this in my mind before then I'd already, by that time, I was in the business of trying to build a team where we could help veterans do this. And that started in 2006 actually going back couple years before. And he was my navigator there, and then I there was actually, it was actually a two commando regiment guy who inspired me to this idea of motorsport, helping, helping people. Because he was, he'd been injured in in Afghanistan, I think end of the ID Nick Blakes, I think they're in the bush range or something. So he was a hugely injured or then, but he was, he drove a very fast deaths in 240 Z and he was sponsored, well, he was supporting legacy, oh yeah. And it was really good, and he did very well. And he had a veterans navigating for him and stuff like that. And he was the guy that I got the idea from, though, let's do that. Let's support something. And then my original thing was, had a little bit of at least, if I do this, I can get sponsors and things like that. Because he had sponsors. He had sponsors of legacy helping him do that so he could help legacy. And I thought, at least you could rally for free.

Andy Fermo: 9:59

There's. Is, yeah, motorsports expensive,

Unknown: 10:03

very expensive, right? So it can be anyway, and anyway, so that's where I first got the idea, from him, and I always credit him with that inspiration. And started mountain road racing and to, you know, as a team, and it's been since then, it's taken me all this time until 2020 22 put that team together where it's actually working done. I've gone down a fair bit of rabbit holes and dead ends and had a lot of rejection, but I'm completely focused on being the best scout I am, or get

Andy Fermo: 10:35

enough ones who've been knocked down a few times a and that's a fair that's

Unknown: 10:38

both applied that thing, yeah. And as a result, all that persistence has paid off. So we've got a pretty working, working model now where we're up and running. But the so I brought up again, I brought all that marketing experience and all those other things to make sure we did that. It's been very interesting people. You think, oh, they'll be right into this. And because they help, supposedly helping veterans. And they live in one of the bar of it, you know, it's just too hard for them or something. And other people, you think, Oh, they said, Geez, that's brilliant to me, and

Andy Fermo: 11:10

I love it. Yeah, hold on, see what. Robert, so I just wanted to pause that for a moment, because there's, there's been some absolute big nuggets of gold that you've really shared in this last sort of 10 or 12 minutes or something like that. And that, the first one I want to be able to do is that spark again, right? So you've you mentioned right at the start there that your personality trait was always to be able to be the best they can be. And then at some point, things started to unravel. This is post military career in whatever it was. And Yeah, at first, when you sought help, it was because you had immediate support, say, and you use the example of your wife, that I was doing it for her, I'm going to go and I'm feeling something. I'm going to go and see someone, because she's put up with a lot of my shit over the years. I'm going to go and see someone about it and see if there is now that connection at first really wasn't there as much with the people that those first people, there was some avenues to be going around. But like I said, is that what I'm picking up is that you were persistent in being able to find someone that actually did connect with you. And then in the end, I'm talking from a specialist point of view, is that this person that was the forward observer that said, Hey, Lee, go and see someone, because you saw that connection, that that social connection, where that person had very similar traits in some regards that you go, I'm respecting that I'm gonna actually go and see someone else about this, which takes you to that 272 1007 bit, where you were going on having some help there, but then you were going about it for your own, for your own sake, right? As opposed to, I'm going to do it for someone else. I'm going to go and do this. But simultaneously, there's something that you found 2003 you got sold on the undertaker tarmac rally sort of thing, where competition side, you had a small group of people then, very similar to what you were used to, again, like repurposed, right? So small teams, pursuit of excellence, highly specialized role within that team, to give you that model, which was then now under, under the rally, mountain road racing, then you actually had this model that you needed to work on. And then from that 2007 point to where you are. Let's take it to 2022 which couple of years after that is that the refining right? And I'm reading between the lines there about unconventional warfare. It takes a lot of time to be able to see what works and see what doesn't. But it's that trait of wanting to be able to have that pursuit of excellence, and that personality trait of why you said before, right at the start, they look to be selected in the Special Forces, or with the SAS was looking for a certain personality of someone that gets knocked down but is going to come back up and see how you're resilient to being able to do this right. So now you've got this model that you're at and that you're happy with mountain road racing. Now, you've got a team and a model, you're helping veterans. And then through racing, this is what I'm picking up, is that through racing, that it has that sort of sense of healing without you know, you've got someone that's a specialist that's dealing with the specific stuff. But then through racing and the team and the model that you've got now, people are finding that sense of purpose just like you have?

Unknown: 14:24

Yeah, I think so, as well documented, I'd like to actually go back and touch on something that I haven't touched on I was involved with trying to put the team together and work in a genre where we could do not only track, not only time out rally, but track racing with another car, another gentleman, there's mate of mine from essays. But that didn't work out for a variety of reasons, but so I decided, one time, I was visiting my son in Albury, and I saw a sign on the Hume Weir or something, saying 2250 kilometers from the Murray mouth. And I thought that's a long way. And I thought Shit that'd be worth doing. So I ended up starting to plan straight away to paddle a sea kayak 2450 clicks down the Murray River, which I did in 2021 as a something hard to do, basically, and was supported by a couple of guys without it as well, one of whom was a former clearance diver. We went down together pretty much the whole way it was during the covid time. So we had to do it in two phases. We used to depend on what the covid rules are. We used to camp on the other bank of the state, or something like that. But anyway, so I ended up doing all that and got home in time from a 70th birthday. And that was a, I suppose a lot of people have said, that's a good achievement. And then we about a month after that, I was diagnosed with stage four cancer, non Hodgkin's lymphoma. She's Yeah, and so I spent all of 22 with our diagnosis, and then long treatment and and recovery from the treatment, in a sense, all the 22 a bit like, a bit like a lot of people in the in in history, have thought up pretty interesting things when they've been incarcerated or in hospitals or under the pump. And then so I managed to re, engage or revisit mountain road racing and and then so on. At the end of 22 by then, I'd reset my goals and all that sort of thing. So that chance a year, I feel like, if I can call it that, and I was, I'm fine from that now, he survived another one was a sort of like a speed bump in the highway life. So it took me back. It put me back a year on my goals. Yeah, so I'm like, I thought we'll so 23 was their inaugural setup year again for Rejuve the team, and then at 24 and 25 instead of 23 and 24 we get now is that is the goal to do this for a two year, two full season period, yeah, and then I'll be looking, and I'll say to all your listeners, I'm looking for someone to come in and take over the mantle, take over the legacy at the end the next year. And so join up before then and train yourself, because it's a brilliant thing. So I'm looking for a succession there so people can take on the legacy, because it's turned out, and I always knew this from 2003 anyway, it's a brilliant thing for God who are drifting and who are recovering from these mental and physical illnesses, and that

Andy Fermo: 17:33

absolutely, absolutely Robert, and we'll speak to that with exactly what you guys are doing with mountain road racing and especially these next two seasons In a minute, but

Unknown: 17:42

sorry if I went back there a bit. No, it's good because it gives

Andy Fermo: 17:45

it very important, and also it gives context as well to some of the other bits. And what I picked up off that part of the story as well, which is setting up to that model where you wanted to with mountain road racing, but having having been diagnosed with cancer, and then having to live the cancer year, right? And this is all during covid and everything like that. How is it that the cancer or your training and or lived experience, did that help make you resilient in terms of being able to deal with the cancer, or did that change your perspective on how to move forward with it?

Unknown: 18:20

No, not really. I've got a very proactive viewpoint on myself. Personally, to me, life is just full of choices. You can choose to do whatever, from the very bad to the very good, right? Yeah, but so I always put myself on the top of the list. When I'm thinking of someone to blame. I'd normally put myself on the top and then work down from there. Yeah. Most people never have their own name on that list, but so I take full responsibility for me, and I spend a lot of time making sure that that's the case. And so going back to the thing about the thing about the cancer is just a delay. So my view is it's a bit like I often use that analogy of the story you get an aircraft, and they say, in a safety brief, when the oxygen mask comes down, put yours on first before you deal with your son or daughter or your friend or neighbor or whatever. And so I think this is a very key thing. And to me is if you're not going to look after yourself and make sure your own health is the best you can't help anyone else. So I have that I use that analogy because it's easy for people to understand. I totally agree with that one. I use that myself. It's a cracker, right? Yeah, you never has been there, but so that's the first thing. So the way I then view it is that what I do is I look for the very best medical help I can find. So I say, if I've got a surgery or illness or something, I say, drop me out your best specialist that you can find. And I always work from the top down. And luckily, if it wasn't for the DVA, the Gold Card help, which they've been brilliant for, that I'd be dead long ago, really, because I've got a lot of things that I've overcome and thank goodness for. Out for the family as well, but the so what I do is I look after myself as best I can, and I don't mess around like check myself all the time. Even blokes in their 40s and 50s should do this, or even younger, but certainly in the 40s onwards, and regular checkups and start taking care of themselves, because they can't help anyone else, including their family, if they're down the Googler themselves, health wise. So the other thing I do is I then, so I got the I've got a real medical army. I call them my medical army. There's various specialists in there for this and that, because I've got this and that wrong with me here. And I just do whatever they tell me to do. I don't bring my own ego to the door. And I don't say, Oh no, I rung up Dr Google. And he says this, or there's not Dr Google. A lot of people do that, yeah, absolutely original that. And so I just do what they tell me they've spent decades being as good as they are. Make sure I pick the right ones, and then I just do what they bloody tell me, and then I get on with my own life. So I don't try and be them, or like when I fly on a plane. I don't need to know all the avionics and how many rivets are in the thing. I just need to notice there's a good chance that we'll get to the other end, right, not paying the deals, payment of price. So I'm like that. So that's one thing I don't have to worry about. And I another thing I mentioned is, which is very important, I think, with the things in recovery, people in recovery, is I never I try as hard as I possibly can, and I never spare any emotional energy on things I can't control. That's a big one, a because most people are reactive, not proactive. Are they reactive? And they I'm here because of the weather of the government or the bloody wife or the husband or the whatever. I don't I that way I can clear myself for the mission. So I I see life. There's a succession of problems to solve, and a wiser wealthy man once told me. He said, If you want a bigger income, you got to find bigger problems to solve. He said,

Andy Fermo: 22:11

Well, peace, if

Unknown: 22:14

you want to in other words, if you want a more rewarding life, you got to do the harder things in life, the easy stuff doesn't pay much reward. And

Andy Fermo: 22:23

who, in their right mind would try and paddle to 2400 kilometers, or whatever it is, down the Murray mate in the middle of covid?

Unknown: 22:30

Some people say it's crazy, but no, I

Andy Fermo: 22:32

reckon that's awesome. I was wanting to do that on a paddleboard.

Unknown: 22:36

People say, Oh, what was it like? And I said, was it pretty arduous? But I didn't realize I had cancer at the time, so it was getting stuck into me while I was doing it. So I guess it's an achievement to be able to persist and still achieve the aim. So that's all right, that sort of gives

Andy Fermo: 22:50

me not a war stopper made. It's not a war stopper. You still paddle the thing even with cancer. No, that's fine. That's right, knocking at the door. Now, a

Unknown: 22:56

lot of people had a lot worse, you know, I'm saying. So, Robert, look, now

Andy Fermo: 22:59

that we've moved there, we've talked about the cancer and that, that viewpoint, that, and there's a lot of stuff to what, to that mental condition that you're that you're dealing with, is, okay, yes, I've got it. I've got, I've got PTSD, or complex PTSD. I've gone and seen the specialist, but I'm still going to crack on with my life, and this is what we're talking about now, and where I really want to start focusing on with mountain road racing, because I know that you mentioned before that you got the program, you got the next two sort of seasons and and I'm just looking to confirm with the with your website and your advisory team, or meeting the team. You've got a lot in there. You've got your psychologists, you've got your marketing and all that. So can you speak to that a bit more?

Unknown: 23:39

Mate? Yeah. The thing is, what we're doing here is a difficult thing to do, right? I know that because no one else is doing it, that's usually a good combat indicator. So to do that properly, first of all, first of all, you need a fair bit of money for it. In a big business, just not a lot of money, but in an average bloke on the street, it sounds like a fair bit of money than it probably is to most people, because these things are not cheap to go into, but it's extremely rewarding. It's worth the candle sort of thing, yeah, but to get that money, I've got to I spend most of my time as team principal talking to prospective sponsors and sponsors, and we're privately funded, fully philanthropic 100% and not for profit. So we don't, there's no color TV sets taken to heaven or anything like that. So we don't employ any staff. We're just taking on a bookkeeper now, because that what this means to run a run a thing like that successfully, you've got to run it as a business, yes, yes, 100% so a lot of people are not familiar with that side of it, because being running a business, a small business, effectively, is not easy for most people. It's certainly not easy for me, because I get a whole bunch of components if you're going for a time at rally in Victoria or Tasmania or something like that from Queensland, but you got you. Veterans on the crew and all that. You got a lot of moving bits in this. And these guys, they transport there, they they get involved with it and stop, like a day trip, like most of the esos that you see, a lot of things are what I call day trips, because that's for a few hours. It might be a good, interesting exercise, but it's just for a few hours. It gives you a bit of a memory. And that's all very well, but this is experiential. This is a sort of a life changing or it can be a life changing activity, which you can take into further activity. So that's what I know it is. And it's underwater from Queensland. You got operation, you got finance, you got HR, you've got transport, you've got accommodation, all of these things, and someone's got to pay for all of that. So on the prime driver or one of the cars, we've now got two, two cars, another owner, driver with us, with another Alfa Romeo 147 GTA, which is a brilliant so there's two of us involved. That means, and when we go away, we overload our team. You don't need all these people for these sort of events, but we overlaid our team so we'll have a so the navigator is a veteran, the crew chief is a veteran, and the four service crew guys, these men and women, were all new positions, and they're all veterans, right? And you don't need them all. Sometimes there's not much for them to do at this time. But I, but my biggest word I've I've come to grips with, here is the word I like most about all of this stuff, is engage. Engage. Now, because most guys, most men and women who are suffering, then many women are suffering the same. Oh, of course they are, yeah, and most of them in their recovery journey, and it's a journey. It's not a destination. In their recovery journey in the bunker, they don't want to talk to people, they don't want to, they're trying to cope. They don't engage with life, a lot of it, and when they do, they make mistakes because they're not supported, or all sorts of things. And so they get back in the bunker, stay in the bunker, and just pretend to be whatever they think they should be. So this is all about coming out of the bunker and engaging. So here they are. They they're on this trip away from Mum for more than a day, five to six days, or something like that. I don't say that flippantly, but sometimes difficult for people in recovery to think of these things, and they're all of a sudden, they're in an uplifting environment, right? So they're surrounded by other submiss Mostly just metal cities, but civilian people. But all of these people are in their own life. They're all in the pursuit of excellence. So it's a very uplifting thing. And the rallying group in motorsport in particular is very friendly. They help each other. They racing is a little bit different track racing. You don't come near my engine because you must find out what secrets I've got here. You stay away from my pit area. But I don't mean that entirely, but not the low, lower level so much. But certainly in rally, it's very Can I give you a hand with that, mate? And it's a very military style of place, in a sense, and

Andy Fermo: 28:01

it sounds like it's very resource, the resourceful nurse as well. I'm picking up those tones as well. Yeah,

Unknown: 28:07

you're working in small teams with our crew and stuff like that. You with like minded people or veterans in the crew and stuff like that. They're all in their different levels of journey. Some are, you know, they could be disabled in some way, as long as they can walk around and maybe pick up a spinner and tell a joke that that's good enough for us, and as long as they can try to fit in that, but they will fit in because it's a very uplifting environment, seeing the pursuit of exits and all these other are surrounded by all these people in these rally events, right? It's a very it's very therapeutic in a way, because it's like being back in the military, whatever the service they were, or job they were. It's not about special forces, by the way. So we're we're just about ready to rock and roll in the Time Out West, over there, in this and as it turns out, we're going to have all access those veterans as a one off, in a sense, because we're supported by the regiment, to resources fund and so on as so that's really good. I'm very glad about that, and I'll get with a lot of old mates and all that sort of stuff as well. Yeah, but it's for all services. It's for men and women. It's for ABLE disabled. And this business about engaging is what it's all about. And I find, same as I found with myself that it's a very Oh, wow. This is good. This is terrific. And even if there's not much to do with service crews, supporting the crew chief is like a leadership position, like a section commander or patrol commander, or think he's got to look after his guys there and make sure they're all all good. Everyone's looking after each other's back, just like military, right? So I think it's a, I don't think I know that it's a really good thing to do. Now, the other big one is it doesn't cost them anything to do it. Wow. That's

Andy Fermo: 29:51

amazing. And when you say, does it cost them anything to do it? Is that like them rocking up and then doing those bits there? So they volunteer. We

Unknown: 29:58

rock them up. We rock. Them up. We'll fly them from capital city to capital city, if the things in Victoria. We fly them from Brisbane or Adelaide or wherever they might come from, and get them to Melbourne. We get them picked up the part of the crew. We can accommodate them. We even give them allowance so they start while they're with us. They could go there and spend none of their own money, if they wanted to, they can spend as much as they like, course, but they don't have to. They're fully accommodated. So if you were to outsource one of these events for a person, in other words, if that person said, Oh, I'd like to go on something like that, was it going to cost me? But probably, if you could find an outsourcing company which would do this, they'd probably charging him somewhere between four and 6000 bucks for the privilege right to do the same stuff. So we has got it to the got it down to where we can pretty much do this from. And I'm saying this in terms of people out there who might be in your listeners who'd like to support us. We're coming in at around about less than off from less than 2000 the veteran for that experience, which he doesn't pay for, right? Yeah, it's bang for your buck, big time. It's really good, and it's

Andy Fermo: 31:07

interesting. I do be able to do that, because obviously you've put a lot of time and effort, and there's a lot of money going into the programs of what you're doing, not attempting to do you're doing it right? And you've got these the target races that are coming in, and you're looking for people to be able to be part of this experiential thing that's going on, right, and as part of a team. So there's a couple of layers about this. And so with our audience that are listening in, when they hear these what's actually the dollar? Let's talk about brass tax and the dollar value. It costs money to get them there, but for someone to be who is wanting to have that experiential thing to in their own journey of recovery and or management of their condition, whether it's physical or mental, is they're getting a team that is part of it. It's a very uplifting team that helps them. You don't need to talk about any of this stuff, but you've got this commonality, one, the racing, and then two, whether you're you've been in a veteran or a first responder, I'm assuming, as well, with how they come in. So they commit to it, but the commitment is that commitment to the journey that gives them what they're doing and you're coming along and knowing this value that comes in, because it's not free and it's not cheap to get there, is that, that that's being covered, right? But then for someone who has an immense benefit of the moving forward from that experience that really helps them in terms of it, you know, numb talk, they say, if they've dva, you're doing a vocational rehabilitation program. And there's some amazing ones out there. But this one is also helping out rides. If this is helping someone to get back onto the perch, get back in the game and be engaged with life, getting out of the bunker, so to speak. That is much more valuable in terms of monetary wise, that $2,000 investment of what it's costing in that back what's happening in the background for them, moving forward, pro life, being engaged and going on to do different things and challenging themselves in the pursuit of of excellence, whatever that might be for them, is massive.

Unknown: 33:16

Yeah, that's right. Even one of the things on the website there, which is mountain road racing.au. Yes, one of the things you see there is some of the jobs there, and including in Navigator and crew chief and service crews, they list what these sort of guys do, yes. But also there's, there's a slot there for officials, right? So someone might not, they might say, What would mine beneficial? Because officials are the other structure behind these events, and most of them are volunteers. But when they volunteer, for example, for the mount Baldwin sprint, which we're going to with two cars in 2627 or block type, down in Victoria, there's going to be, there's going to be a few 100 officials there, and they're most just about all of them are volunteers, but they get looked after. They get accommodated. So it's a real experience for them. Now, so these officials, so that we will help train up guys as well for if they'd like to be an official. Now, these officials, for example, as you're mentioning there, could go all the way to becoming a Formula One official being flown around the world doing Formula One if they wanted to, if they wanted to Baden up. Because there's a lot, it's sort of like being a me an umpire or somebody in the footy match for kids end up doing the grand final in the MCG

Andy Fermo: 34:36

or something. There's pathways and opportunities that are, yeah,

Unknown: 34:39

luckily, I've really satisfying, interesting, really interesting stuff, and it could go international if they wanted it. So that's what we offer in terms of just artists. So what we're not trying to do is, and some people have asked me this, I'll just mention what we're not trying to do is get a few guys and train them up and make them good at. This time at rally. So by and large, in theory, guys just get one gig. Because what we want to do is look after 100 guys in a year, 80 guys in a year, or something like that, as money, as many as we can do, rather than have a few guys who do a number of gigs. Sure, because that's not to me, that's not a very efficient way to because what we're trying to do is get the people to engage, and they will engage, and some will engage more than others. It depends on where they are on their journey, and they can, we'll get them into other teams so they want another gig. There's always teams are looking for navigators and service crewed and guys to be involved. And it's a fantastic environment, right? And so I couldn't be more positive, as you can tell,

Andy Fermo: 35:44

yeah, that's amazing. And really, that model that you've got going on at the moment as well, what that allows, if you're thinking about using like the mountain road raising and the tarnack rally platform, to be able to in your journey, if that was something of interest to you to explore, you could do it as that experiential once off and then from a point of view that you guys are doing, right? So the more people that you're getting through, they're going to get that experience. Because what they take away from it is that engagement, to be able to do things, what it with, whatever they're doing. However, there's also pathways, if you were right into it, that you could go, Hey, actually, this might be something for me, and then I might explore this in other ways. And then the pathway you never know, like you mentioned before, is you could go from being an official here to somewhere in that top tier of racing. That's not out of the realms, right? But what it is, it's enabling someone to go, Hey, I'm going to repurpose myself. And this is of something of interest, if I want to come back. Yeah, great. But if not, I had a great experience here. It was over multiple days, not just a couple of hours, that I got to be able to be part of the team. Again, I'm an enabled I was surrounded by positive and uplifting people, and then I was also engaged. During that time, I was engaged, then now I could go off now, and maybe I might want to paddle 2400 kilometers in a fitted boat, I don't know. Give them

Unknown: 37:05

confident. Give them confidence.

Andy Fermo: 37:07

Yeah, grab to buy the balls.

Unknown: 37:08

Yeah, yeah. I'm not finished yet. I can still talk to people, yeah. And boy, and those people I met at that do there, they were fascinating, because they're doing all this stuff, and they're not veterans. They, you know, they they've built businesses, they've done all sorts of things, and people that we mix with in these events, they really respect us, they really respect veterans, and they love talking to our guys, and so it's a real good environment. The other thing I'd say is that our team psychologist is not a clinical psychologist, per se. He's a sports performance psychologist, yes. So he works with institutes of sports and those sort of things, and he's a real part of the team. I talk to him every week. He's part of the planning deal. And what we do is we're gathering a little bit of data. It's all anonymous, but we're doing this so we can prove this in terms of medical issue. You know how engaging and suitable it is. And in fact, we just, we've just set up an agreement with the University of Queensland, which is really important this, and they've got a, like, a PhD type student who's doing all the research with us, and they'll embed with the team, and we'll go away and start writing reports and thesis is on this sort of aspect of, you know, brilliant how efficient this is for guys in recovery.

Andy Fermo: 38:25

You know, absolutely. And then that's really great. We're not missing

Unknown: 38:29

around as fully on business as we're doing it properly. There's no it's not just a jolly. I don't need to go rallying. I've done six target Tasmanians. I've done a shed full of majors. So I don't need it, but it gives me a great pleasure to be able to help these guys, men and women, and the ones that we've done already, in three rallies that we've done so far, is just brilliant. So it's really good

Andy Fermo: 38:53

to the metrics behind that is you've got the three rallies behind that now, and you've got that sort of formula to be able to get that experiential feedback. You know it works. You're getting feedback. You've got a study on it that's happening, to be able to at least put what you're getting back into that sort of statistical and data point of view. That's evidence based, right? So evidence based, you come back, not saying, Oh, I just reckon it works. It's literally, this is the data and metrics behind

Unknown: 39:20

it. There's actually plenty of written about this, about extreme sports, motorsports being very good for veterans in recovery around the world, and particularly UK and USA. There's not much Sweden in Australia terms. So we're on the cutting edge of that with UQ now. So that's going to be brilliant. The other thing is that we're just to reiterate or enhance what you're saying there before we're not that's why we called it initially, veterans into motorsport, but we call it veterans in motorsport now. We just changed their the program title a little bit, because these guys can go on and. Only get involved with activity. Motorsport in Australia is something like a $12 billion business. Well, that's huge. You are. It's huge, right? So in other words, when I say that there's all these different components of the motor, what industry of all sorts of things, from engineering to to psychology, to all sorts of things, activities, generation of this and that, and support the physical everything. So there's a lot of employment opportunities. Therefore, if they and we're a car country, everyone and so it makes a lot of sense to me that this is a real Avenue people can get into if they'd like to, but if the if, at the very least, they check it out and and they can do that on the website, the going on the website, they can hit the sign me up button to say their name and their phone number and their email or something like that, and say, I'd like to be something like a navigator or crew chief or something, or it just service crew, that'd be great. And then they submit that. I get an email straight away. Then I get in touch with them on the phone. But my phone number's on their website. Yep, I can tell it to you now if

Andy Fermo: 41:13

you Yeah, absolutely, yeah. So, so, just so that we could bring you, I can ring

Unknown: 41:17

them whatever 24/7 Robert's

Andy Fermo: 41:20

away, or maybe what, 24/7 So Robert, with that, with the program. How, having said that, how were the touch points to be able to get in contact with you, or one of the teams at Mountain racing? So let's start with the website, and then go from there.

Unknown: 41:36

Yeah. So the website is ww.of, course, mountain road racing. One word, mountain road racing, because that's what we see race through mountains, right? Yeah. So mountain road racing.au, there's no com in there, just IU, I've gone to the dark side. So.au.au, yeah. So that's the website, and generally it's reasonably updated. I get a bit way laid with this 100 things. So sometimes it needs a little bit of updating at the moment, but it generally is, if you give you a real good picture as you probably looked at it, yeah, yes, absolutely. And it's not a bad one. There's a lot of information there. And along the way, there's these little sign me up buttons you'll see come up, especially when you're looking at the crew jobs and things like that. And it's simply a matter of just click on that, and then, a little, like a preliminary the expression of interest comes up, in a sense, where you just say, Oh, this is my name, this is my phone number, this is my email. I think it includes email, but you and then says, and then you can tick a box to be, you know, considered for this or that, or this or that, the crew chief or navigator or and so we train navigators, so that's an exciting thing for people to actually want to be in the car, yeah, rocketing around the place, but fully trained with all the goods and bits and pieces. They don't have to provide their own gear with all of that's provided to them and the crew chiefs and the service crews and all that. It's all it's on the job training as well, but we run courses for navigators and things like that. Yeah. So, and then as soon as they go submit, they can fill it out, but they got to push the submit button. So I remember a lot of guys are feeling that that, and they didn't push submit. So I had to ring them up again and say, Hey, push submit. So when you push them in, then that automatically sends an email to me, saying, oh, Fred Smith has indicated like to be involved or whatever. And then I give him a ring, or one of the managers gives him a ring and says, hey, here you go. What's your story? Has a bit of a quick conversation, gives them a chance to ask questions of us and things like that. And so we have a bit of that, and we figure it out now. So we've got different rallies, different times they might not be available, so some people might be still working, because our target audience, really, for all of this, is the if I can say this is a younger veteran from Somalia, Timor, Iraq, Afghanistan and onwards, because they're the guys that are, well, there's a lot of guys suffering from the last 20 years or so, and that they're our target audience, old guys like me. Most of us are running out of path, right? If I find another elderly teenager like myself who's still rocking and rolling. Yeah, there's nothing wrong with them being there as well. But by and large, our target audience for the guys we're most interested in is our current sort of

Andy Fermo: 44:28

youngest engaging, yeah, engaging, that, uh, contemporary veteran community, Yep,

Unknown: 44:35

yeah, yeah. So some are still working, you know, the then a lot of them are still got, you know, families and things like that. And some of them are a bit older, or they're not working anymore, or they've, you know, retired, uh, medically, or so, oh, come as So, some of them, especially the guys that are working, they might have to get time off or something like that, or get approval from their families even, or some of that for the time. But. Generally, for most of the rallies, we do a two day weekend affairs. But you got to get there. You got to prepare. You got to, if you navigator, you got to go there and get involved with reconnaissance and all sorts of things. So it might be, generally, for most people, it's about a five day trip away from your state. And so, yeah, it's just, it's just a brilliant thing. You got me on my favorite topic now so I can,

Andy Fermo: 45:27

yeah, that's it. So, Robert, so just so that it's clear for myself in the audience. Days, if someone's wanting to be able to engage in one of the rallies that you guys do, and there's several throughout the year, even if you are working, or you might be medically retired, whatever your situation is that the commitment would be, say five to seven days for a rally. In reality that you need to, Okay, put in for

Unknown: 45:52

leave weekend, because it's over a weekend as well. So fine for business days, yeah, so

Andy Fermo: 45:57

over a weekend. So just say an extended, long weekend. So to say that they're signing on, sign me up as a that's my commitment for this experiential activity. I'm going to go somewhere. So whether I'm working or medically retired, or whatever the situation is, at some point you're knowing, okay, if I've signed on the line, you're going to know the dates well in advance. That works for you. Then you're going to be flown out. Or if it's in your state, that's the commitment of the days for that experiential activity, and then in whatever role and capacity that you guys are doing. So then that way it's giving them that's something to look forward to as well. So if you have to wait for a rally to go in, that's something to look forward to. And as far, they may not be

Unknown: 46:39

available for the next one or something, because at work or the family or whatever that's they're on our list, but we're always trying to pull up our list for our rallies, so they're just in the list, and if they can't do the first one, they'll probably be right for the second. That happens from time to time. It's inevitable you might not be available for whatever reason, for one or the other, but along the way, there's going to be an opportunity for you if you want it then. So I would suggest that the main thing is people check out the website. They can ring me straight away. They don't have to even sign up. They can just see my phone number there the team principal and give me a ring.

Andy Fermo: 47:16

And are you on social media as well? Robert, yeah, so, so

Unknown: 47:20

we're going to mountain road racing page on Facebook, yep. But also I'm down as down as my my main Facebook page is my personal one is Robert gilsby. They're more than welcome to contact me through there. My avatar actually is me in the race suit under the mount Bulla sign with a glass of champagne in my hand.

Andy Fermo: 47:41

Of course, it's with the champagne, right? And because there's an

Unknown: 47:43

old Russian saying, a risk, no champagne, that's, that's, I thought that was, that was a good day. But the thing is, with us anyway, we're not trying to be on the podium or anything like that. There's no issue of risk there at all, really. We cover all the risks. I'm very experienced with the comet rallies and so on. Some of our guys, everything is just a terrific just everything taken care of and and just get out there and have a crack and see how to look yourself. And the man, you could open up all new wells for you if you wanted it to

Andy Fermo: 48:16

Amazing. Amazing. Robert, so just in in closing, you mentioned you're going to be here in in WA and so that might be a little bit close from the time of recording for the and you're obviously here for the for the anniversary. But what are the upcoming ones? Because our episodes gonna be, what are the upcoming ones following for to the year's end?

Unknown: 48:36

And so anybody over in the West, there's a tarmac rally. The tarmac West is called, they used to be called Target West. And that's on between the 12th and the 15th of September. And please come up and say hello to us. There'd be a whole bunch of veterans there. We got two, two cars in the in one category, which is a category where they it's not a full competition sort of car, the cage and all that my so my car is fully caged up at 600 kilometers an hour, cap on the open entry and things like that. So that's a full on Drive. And the the other two cars are an AC a Shelby Cobra. I see the Cobra replica, which is bit flash, and then a big Batman looking car, stingway, Black Corbett, Stingray, left hand drive, yeah. So they'll be nice there, so we'll all be there, and be great to see anybody that comes up to us and say, Hey, listen, I listened to Andy fermo, and here I am. And what is this? What you Blake should doing? So anyone in the Perth area during that time? It's based out of those CBD in Perth. So it's Langley park there. Sure it's easy to find us. And you got my phone number from the website. You can ring me anytime. Then the other one, the next one, the cab off the rank is mountain sprint. So we're going up to the resort in Melbourne, which is some of the steepest roads in Australia to drive on, and we'll have our second car there now. Cool. My car is called car alpha, and the other car is called car Romeo. So alpha, and both alpha Romeos, yeah, and so we'll have two cars there. So we're actually looking for to fill it up with a crew, with the crew, so there's six guys in each crew, which are veterans. So there's 12 guys in that one event. We'll be able to help amazing, amazing and I mean, and by the way, if nothing else, so go away with our T shirt and cap and all that sort of stuff. And that'll be on our ring and back list. And so there'll be other things to do later on. We've got, we've got plans in the future, actually, not just in in tarmac rally, but maybe endurance motorbike explorations, and,

Andy Fermo: 50:45

oh, maybe, yeah, think desert race or something like that.

Unknown: 50:48

Some, also some snow training, adventure stuff. Um,

Andy Fermo: 50:52

watch this space. Or I may, I reckon that there's, there's a lot there. And if, if we could, would so the the invites absolutely extended out into our networks. If you've got the the social media tiles that we could share, can you please share them to me, but thank you so much, mate for coming on onto the to the show and guesting what sharing your story, and then also the amazing work that you're doing now with mountain road racing, because I reckon it's a shit hot way to be able to get our veterans re engaged and give them some possible pathways to be able to have some growth during their journey. Thank you so much.

Unknown: 51:29

Yeah, I find that just one thing also not to have the last word at all, but the you have to have another last word after this,

Andy Fermo: 51:36

you're right mate, you can have the last word.

Unknown: 51:38

The thing is that I find, I find that a lot of veterans who are in recovery, they literally don't put their hand up right. There's still in the bucket. They don't know, I'll have a look. Maybe they don't put the hand up. So for guys in the in the in that sort of situation, I would just commend to them that they just give me a ring and they can ask questions and do their due diligence and do all that stuff they don't have to submit on the website if they don't want to. We're in the self Higher Self fire business. People can. People can do what they like. They can take as much territory as they like. They can get involved with us on the team as well. That's the other thing. Yeah, they can be part of our team and and be part of the organization of arranging for all the other guys. And some people might say this is all very nice, but it's not for me, but they might know someone who would really love it. And so let's get the information out there and get the guys in because it's tremendous, absolutely

Andy Fermo: 52:37

mate. Well, thank you very much. That was a perfect last word, so I'm not going to add to that. It was a great way to be able to finish off the episode. Mate, thank you so much. Updates.

Unknown: 52:47

Mate, all the best. Take care.

Claire Fermo: 52:52

Join us next time for the next episode of the invisible injuries podcast. Don't forget to subscribe for more great content. Follow us on our socials, on Instagram, and you can also visit our website, www.invisibleinjuries.org.au where you can access more content. Thank you for listening to invisible injuries. You.