On Inside Geneva, we’re bringing you a series of summer profiles, from doctors in war zones to researchers into the diseases that affect the world’s poorest.
Today, we talk to international human rights lawyer Antonia Mulvey, who devotes herself to defending women.
“With many of those that we work with, who have been subjected to sexual violence, part of it is listening to them, hearing them, acknowledging what has happened,” Mulvey says.
From Somalia, to Sudan, or Lebanon, Mulvey and her colleagues offer support and advice, but the women affected are always in control.
“Some have the courage and bravery to step forward, and we represent them in legal cases. But they have to lead the way,” she adds.
Mulvey also hopes to inspire other women.
“Let’s step up, let’s work with women, let’s work with women’s groups, to take more cases, to keep challenging it, to keep pushing that door open,” Mulvey concludes.
Join host Imogen Foulkes on Inside Geneva.
Please listen and subscribe to our science podcast -- the Swiss Connection.
On Inside Geneva, we’re bringing you a series of summer profiles, from doctors in war zones to researchers into the diseases that affect the world’s poorest.
Today, we talk to international human rights lawyer Antonia Mulvey, who devotes herself to defending women.
“With many of those that we work with, who have been subjected to sexual violence, part of it is listening to them, hearing them, acknowledging what has happened,” Mulvey says.
From Somalia, to Sudan, or Lebanon, Mulvey and her colleagues offer support and advice, but the women affected are always in control.
“Some have the courage and bravery to step forward, and we represent them in legal cases. But they have to lead the way,” she adds.
Mulvey also hopes to inspire other women.
“Let’s step up, let’s work with women, let’s work with women’s groups, to take more cases, to keep challenging it, to keep pushing that door open,” Mulvey concludes.
Join host Imogen Foulkes on Inside Geneva.
Please listen and subscribe to our science podcast -- the Swiss Connection.
This is Inside Geneva. I'm your host, Imogen Fowkes, and this is a production from Swissinfo, the international public media company of Switzerland.
Speaker 3:
In today's programme With many of those that we work with who've been subjected to sexual violence. Part of it is listening to them, hearing them acknowledging what has happened With many of those that we work with who've been subjected to sexual violence. Part of it is listening to them, hearing them acknowledging what has happened. Some have the courage and bravery to step forward and we represent them in legal cases, but they have to lead the way. Let's step up, let's work with women, let's work with women's groups to take more cases, to keep challenging it, to keep pushing that door open.
Speaker 2:
Hello and welcome to Inside Geneva. I'm Imogen Fowkes, and it's a special day. Today we're marking the start of our summer series of the podcast, where we look at people right here in Geneva doing interesting and very valuable work, but work you may not have heard of Work in human rights, for example, or in international law, or in medical support in war zones or fair access to life-saving medicines. We begin in a modest office just across from the UN's headquarters where we find people women working to support other women around the world, women who have been wronged, persecuted, abused and who are seeking justice.
Speaker 3:
Hello, I'm Antonia Mulvey and I'm the Executive Director of Legal Action Worldwide, so tell me what that is. What do you focus on? So we're a non-profit organisation comprised of human rights lawyers, many of them women lawyers, working on the front lines of conflict, providing legal assistance and representation of victims and survivors of grave human rights violations and international crimes through national, regional and international courts. Starting with, what kind of justice do they want and how can we help them to secure it?
Speaker 2:
Tell me maybe a couple of cases I mean, you've been 20, 25 years doing this standout ones that you've you've worked on so I wanted to talk to you about a few cases.
Speaker 3:
The first one I want to talk about is in lebanon um, in the national courts, because we often think that now we have to look to international courts, but we must start with the national courts. We represent an ethiopian domestic migrant worker called m. She was held by her employer in her home for more than seven years. She worked every day, 15 hours a day. She was not paid for the vast majority of those and subjected to physical and verbal abuse. We helped to remove her from the home and return back home to Ethiopia.
Speaker 4:
One migrant worker dies every week in Lebanon.
Speaker 1:
And told me that here is a cemetery. I will kill you in the night and throw you there.
Speaker 3:
Now we filed a case in the Lebanese courts requesting, for the first time, a criminal investigation on the grounds of slavery, slave trading, racial and gender discrimination. We're going to the fourth hearing of this case. It's a very important case because the vast majority of domestic migrant workers are female perhaps almost 99% of them, and also they're coming from countries normally in Africa and Asia and subjected to this abuse because of their gender and because of their race and nationality.
Speaker 5:
It's been a long, hard journey for Lucy. For a year, she worked in Lebanon, a dream that quickly turned into a nightmare of abuse.
Speaker 3:
We're asking them to be brought within the national framework for employment. It could be a groundbreaking case for hundreds of thousands of women in the region and also, for the first time we've seen it being talked about that slavery and slave trading is taking place in the Middle East.
Speaker 2:
On a practical level. How did this lady from Ethiopia, how did she find you or how did you find her? Because there may be people listening who think I know somebody who's maybe in that situation.
Speaker 3:
That's exactly right. In fact, we're sitting here in Geneva and we know that there are many domestic migrant workers who may be subjected to this type of abuse, both within Switzerland, but also in the border in France. We were contacted by a national organisation who'd seen our helpline, which was in Lebanon, and asked for legal assistance, and we were able to make contact with her and then assist her to actually leave the country. In many of these situations, it's quite difficult to take cases when they're still in the country in which the abuse has taken place place.
Speaker 2:
You've also worked in places like Somalia and Sudan, where you work with local women. I'm just wondering how is the dynamic of that? Do you sense the yes, we're keen to get justice, or do you have to lead the way, or how does that?
Speaker 3:
work In many of these contexts the women themselves. They have to lead these fights for justice and for accountability, the two being different, and we are supporting them. I call it a journey, a journey from victim to survivor to, we hope, to advocate for themselves what happened and for their community.
Speaker 1:
As the daylight fades, the violence against the protesters increases. We've uncovered three cases of rape and assault on women by the Sudanese police and military at the protest that happened close to presidential palace, with many of those that we work with who've been subjected to particularly to sexual violence.
Speaker 3:
part of it is listening to them, hearing them acknowledging what has happened, and many of them don't actually want to go to court, but they can also take steps to prevent it by talking to others within their community to help stop it and also to raise the issue. Some have the courage and bravery to step forward and we represent them in legal cases, but they have to lead the way and actually we have a network of more than 2,000 victims and survivors across the 14 countries that we work in.
Speaker 2:
That was going to be my next question, actually, because you said it has to be determined very much on what kind of justice and accountability the women want. It's not always a route straight to a court, is it?
Speaker 3:
I wish it was as a lawyer. Of course we always want to go straight to the court but, as you said, that's often not possible but, also importantly, it's not what every individual or their family or community want. So we have to look at what, what is possible. And I'd just like to give you a different example. In Lebanon, we were asked to do a preliminary investigation back during the civil war what happened from 1975 to 1990, the gendered crimes that took place. We spoke to women who'd suffered from horrific crimes during the civil war and what they wanted was acknowledgement from the Lebanese government and from those that committed those crimes to acknowledge it took place and to have an apology from them. There is no legal court case that can be taken, but they also had the psychological wounds and even physical wounds that we were able to, 40 years later, provide referrals for them. So we can see that the path to justice or the path to healing, which are both intertwined, it's very important that we respond to their needs and it can be really multifaceted.
Speaker 2:
Do you find in your work that the voices of women are heard less often, that the access to justice, whatever kind of justice it might be, is more challenging than for men?
Speaker 3:
I think it really depends, to be honest, in which context that we are in and how we choose to approach it. Let me give you an example of the Rohingya, so you'll remember that we saw in the news when the Rohingya nearly 800,000 fled from Myanmar into Bangladesh in 2017 with the Myanmar what was called the clearance operations.
Speaker 4:
For a year now, in this bleak landscape, the Rohingya have been suffering Bereaved, uprooted, lost, giving harrowing accounts of the brutality they say they suffered at the hands of the Myanmar military.
Speaker 3:
The Rohingya women, when they were in Myanmar, could not even leave their homes. That is how they lived their lives. It's a very, very difficult situation. Men are the ones who have the positions of authority and power, but who is leading the fight for justice? It's the Rohingya women, and we've been working with them hundreds of them since 2017. And it's them who have taken this courageous step. They've made the first filing before the International Criminal Court. They've made hundreds of pages of witness statements before the International Court of Justice, and it was six women, who traveled to Argentina who testified in the first ever genocide trial that is ongoing.
Speaker 5:
The International Criminal Court has agreed to investigate crimes against Rohingya Muslims in Myanmar. The ICC says there's reason to believe Myanmar's military committed widespread acts of violence in 2017 and they could qualify as crimes against humanity.
Speaker 3:
So I think if we give them the space, if we give them the support, then women can step up. But it takes time and we need to invest time and we need to be present on the ground working with these communities, and that's why us, as an organisation, we have the vast majority of our staff are working in these communities and that's why us, as an organisation, we have the vast majority of our staff are working in the communities in the area where the violations and abuses have taken place. We can't just sit in Switzerland, as beautiful as it is.
Speaker 2:
Do you think perhaps since the 1990s I mean Bosnia would be the one that maybe stands out, certainly for people in Europe that it's become easier to talk about sexual violence, gendered violence in conflict?
Speaker 3:
I think yes and no. When I started talking about sexual violence and conflict more than 20 years ago, quite honestly, the door was just shut on me by many governments. Antonia, thank you very much, but we have 10 other issues that we need to deal with. We're not interested in that. Honestly, the door was just shut on me by many governments and, tony, thank you very much, but we have 10 other issues that we need to deal with. We're not interested in that. So I think we've made progress, not only through the women peace and security council resolutions, but we've seen such initiatives by the uk government for prevention of sexual violence initiatives. So we've made steps forward.
Speaker 3:
At the same time, when you talk and I was recently discussing this with a female lawyer from Libya she said she can't even talk about gender, you can't even talk about these issues because she would be arrested. So I'm not sure if I can give you one answer, because I think from an international perspective, it's moved forward, but in each context we're encountering difficulties. I'll just add one more example. I started working in Somalia more than 10 years ago and at that time, when a woman was raped and reported it to the police, she was more likely to be arrested than the perpetrator Indeed, they were arrested. Since that time, we started working with the Somali government, with the former Minister of Women and Human Rights Development, to draft a sexual offences legislation. That legislation was passed by Cabinet and, whilst it's not been implemented, you have a discussion that sexual violence takes place in the community, and that is the first step, the acknowledgement that takes place for change to happen. It's a man's world.
Speaker 6:
Afghanistan is a conservative country, but the rules are now set by the ultra-conservative Taliban. Spaces which had opened up for women have now been slammed shut.
Speaker 2:
Let's move specifically because I wanted to talk to you about this because it's in the news. A lot is the situation for women in Afghanistan and Iran and we have seen some movements for women from both these countries to work together. We've got this term gender apartheid. Do you see that the gender apartheid term as something that you could work with as a lawyer.
Speaker 3:
I think it's fantastic to see Afghan and Iranian women coming forward and saying this has happened to us. This needs to be stopped, and gender apartheid and this defining it as a crime is extremely important. What we're going to see happening with the Crimes Against Humanity Treaty, which is currently in the Sixth Committee in New York. We need to encourage them to include the crime of gender apartheid and it's very important that we encourage member states, including Switzerland, to support the inclusion of gender apartheid. It can really help women both in Afghanistan and Iran and let's hope not in other countries that we may see this. In the meantime, we're going to have to look at other avenues and other means to assist them.
Speaker 2:
Can you suggest any? I mean, there are some active women. They're all not in their home countries. I mean, what would you advise? What are the avenues?
Speaker 3:
So if they came to us and they said, right, what could we do? The first will be the International Criminal Court. It may have jurisdiction in the situation of Afghanistan and they could be filing an Article 15 communication to the International Criminal Court and indeed they could set out the crimes that have taken place against them. Whilst the crime of gender apartheid is not within the ICC, international Criminal Court Rome statute, certainly they can look to other crimes to set that out. So that could be one avenue.
Speaker 3:
Also, depending on where they are living in that national jurisdiction, there may be also the options to look at universal extraterritorial jurisdiction cases and indeed we are preparing cases in relation to other contexts, different crimes, but where there are women who've suffered hugely, and we can take those cases forward in other jurisdictions. So I think we have to start with asking them what has happened to you, what do you want? And then we look at to see what legal avenues are available. Actually, in some situations there are no legal avenues available, so we're going to have to create them. We're going to have to ask if there can be a new resolution or another mechanism, or perhaps we're going to have to be even more creative and ask also for acknowledgement or apologies. So.
Speaker 2:
I think you're saying this could take a while, but don't give up.
Speaker 3:
Right now we have so many discussions. Are we seeing international law at its lowest ebb? Maybe, but on the other hand, if we look at what's happened since the beginning of 2024, we've never seen so many cases going through the International Court of Justice and some landmark decisions, indeed, in relation to Switzerland as well through the European Court of Human.
Speaker 5:
Rights.
Speaker 2:
Women again, exactly Women's rights An extraordinary, extraordinary case that was taken.
Speaker 3:
So I think we need to actually, as we feel the international law being eroded, no, let's step up, let's work with women, let's work with women's groups, to take more cases, to keep challenging it, to keep pushing that door open. And the question is where would we be if we didn't take these cases? And we probably and most likely would be in even more difficult situation. So I think we should, and wouldn't it be marvellous if not only if the Iranian, afghanistan women come together, but let's bring more from the Middle East, let's bring the Rohingya that we work with and what about those now in Sudan? And let's bring them together. And in fact, it's something that we've started.
Speaker 3:
I've been reflecting on the last 10 years of our work. What we will need to do is more education. I said we have the tool of the tool of war right. That is the tool that is being used, conflicts raging around us but let's give we're working with Sudanese girls, teenagers, to give them the tool of education of human rights, to be the next change makers, the next advocates, and I hope that we can spread that and work with other young women and girls from different countries and create a movement for change.
Speaker 2:
And that inspiring note brings us to the end of this edition of Inside Geneva. My thanks to Antonia Mulvey for such a great conversation. Don't miss our summer series of profiles here on the podcast. We'll be talking to the head of MSF Doctors Without Borders about his work and what keeps him up at night his work and what keeps him up at night. We'll talk to a little-known organisation that works to find treatments and cures for the diseases that affect the world's poorest. And we'll return to Antonia's movement for change for women and hear from a young Afghan woman working to defend human rights and gender equality. All that and more all summer here on Inside Geneva. A reminder you've been listening to Inside Geneva, a Swissinfo production. You can email us on insidegeneva at swissinfoch and subscribe to us and review us wherever you get your podcasts. Check out our previous episodes how the International Red Cross unites prisoners of war with their families, or why survivors of human rights violations turn to the UN in Geneva for justice. I'm Imogen Folks. Thanks again for listening.
