Inside Geneva
A podcast from SWI swissinfo.ch, a multilingual international public service media company from Switzerland, where Imogen Foulkes puts big questions facing the world to the experts working to tackle them in Switzerland’s international city.
Inside Geneva
Special episode: Can the WTO shape a fairer world economy?
The World Trade Organisation (WTO) Public Forum is underway in Geneva and its key theme is ‘re-globalisation’. Are we nervous of that word? Inside Geneva sat down with WTO officials to find out what it means.
“Trade has been a very powerful force for reducing between-country inequality. Since 1995, for example, since the foundation of the WTO, extreme poverty in the world has been reduced from 40% to 10%, because of growth in many countries that was also export-led,” says Ralph Ossa, WTO chief economist.
Many ordinary people think global trade makes them poorer. How can it benefit them?
“At the WTO, our members have gotten together and many of them have formed a working group on trade and gender to especially put the lens of women to trade policy and to see what more can be done so that they can take advantage of opportunities,” says Johanna Hill, WTO Deputy Director.
The WTO doesn’t tell countries how to run their industries, but it does hope they can learn from one another.
“Perhaps one member might say, ‘Well, you know, supporting women in my country has really been a tremendous success. Because now we see higher growth rates, lower poverty rates and so on. Why don't you give it a try yourself?’” says Ossa.
Can global trade help us face global challenges?
“Nobody questions the importance of regulating to protect the environment or to protect health - everybody agrees on that. It’s the how that might be the question,” says Hill.
Join host Imogen Foulkes for a trade special on Inside Geneva.
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Host: Imogen Foulkes
Production assitant: Claire-Marie Germain
Distribution: Sara Pasino
Marketing: Xin Zhang
This is Inside Geneva. I'm your host, imogen Foulkes, and this is a production from Swissinfo, the international public media company of Switzerland.
Speaker 2:In today's program, Trade has been a very powerful force for reducing between-country inequality. Since 1995, since the foundation of the WTO, extreme poverty in the world has been reduced from 40% to 10% because of growth in many countries that was also export-led.
Speaker 3:At the WTO. Our members have gotten together and many of them have formed a working group on trade and gender to especially put it on the lens of women to trade policy and to see what more can be done so that they can take advantage of opportunities.
Speaker 2:If there was a worldwide carbon tax, this would of course, reduce greenhouse gas emissions, but more than one third of the resulting reduction in greenhouse gas emissions would be due to these environmental gains from trade. So trade is an important force multiplier for climate policies.
Speaker 3:Nobody questions the importance of regulating to protect the environment or to protect health. Everybody agrees on that. It's the how. That might be the question.
Speaker 2:Suppose you were to produce everything that you consume, so every shirt you wear, every piece of bread you eat, you would all have to make yourself. Everyone would understand that this doesn't make any sense. So you may be specialized in making the shirt, I may be specialized in making the bread.
Speaker 1:No no, you can make the shirt I make the shirt and then we need to exchange.
Speaker 2:That's trade.
Speaker 1:Hello and welcome to Inside Geneva. I'm Imogen Fowkes, and we've got something a little bit different for you today. Listeners regular listeners will know we've brought you programs about the World Health Organization, global health challenges, about the laws of war, the International Committee of the Red Cross, about refugees and migration with the UN Refugee Agency. Today, though, we're at a Geneva based organization that we don't cover quite so often. We are here at the headquarters of the World Trade Organization. What is it we're going to find out? How can it help support a greener economy? How can it help support the lowest income countries to get involved in global trade and boost their economies? I'm joined by Joanna Hill, deputy Director of the World Trade Organization, and Ralph Ossa, the WTO's Chief Economist. Because we're not here so often, joanna, I'm going to start with you. Just tell me a little bit. Really, what is the WTO.
Speaker 3:What does it do? Well, it's an organization that has 164 members and two more are coming in, hopefully by the end of the year and it's a rules-based system that relates to trading relations amongst nations. It is a system that gives predictability to countries that are wishing to engage in trade and economic relations. And for what reason? In order to help countries develop and sustain their economies and their social development.
Speaker 1:So, ralph, I'm going to ask you, from the pure economic sense, why do we actually need the WTO? I mean we have traded ever since we could walk. Basically, from the pure economic sense, why do we actually need the WTO? I mean we have traded ever since we could walk. Basically, I met a man who used to be a doctor for Médecins Sans Frontières last week who said he'd never been in all of the far-flung places and conflict zones, never been to a village without a market. We've always traded. Why do we need the WTO's involvement?
Speaker 2:No, that's true, there's always been trade, but of course not that much trade and also not trade that was that predictable and also non-discriminatory. I mean, you know, johanna mentioned it but we basically do three things here we negotiate trade agreements, then we implement these trade agreements or monitor these trade agreements, and then we settle disputes. But if you think about you know, just to give you a sense of the importance of the WTO, more than 75 percent of world trade is directly flowing under the tariffs that are set by this institution and the remaining 25 percent, to a large extent, are governed by preferential trade agreements, mostly free trade agreements, that are again regulated by the WTO. So it's really underpinning the global economy as we know it.
Speaker 1:Underpinning the global economy. Nevertheless, countries do argue with each other about trade. How do you solve arguments? I mean, what we hear about here, if you're your average news consumer, is maybe a big economy complaining about another big economy Could be the United States, the European Union, boeing versus Airbus Could be United States China. There must be many more smaller things where you can really really solve a problem.
Speaker 3:Yes, of course, among trading nations, of course problems will come up, but that's normal and this institution has different ways of where trade concerns or even trade disputes are resolved. Firstly, in the deliberative function of this organization, member states deliberate about certain issues, about certain concerns. There are committees that are actually implementing these trade agreements, where you bring in those issues and discuss them. They can be environmental concerns that are taking trade-related measures to address a global challenge, and the question might be is this measure the least restrictive in terms of trade? Because of course, nobody questions the importance of regulating and to protect the environment or to protect health, everybody agrees on that. It's the how. That might be the question. And if that is not resolved at that level of discussions and discourse committees, then you can take it to the dispute settlement process, which is a more formal process where members engage to resolve a dispute and have a third party look at the situation and adjudicate, and so this gives predictability to nations but, more importantly, to those individuals that have built up their whole business in trading abroad.
Speaker 1:Okay. Well, one of the reasons we're here is that your World Trade Report is out right now and we have been allowed a sneak peek at it. We are still, I guess, the global economy emerging from the shock of the COVID-19 pandemic, where global trade did, as we know, take a pretty massive hit. I'm going to ask you both what you see as the key findings, what heartens you and what concerns you. Maybe, john, first you, and then Ralph.
Speaker 3:Well, I think one of the key takeaways is to look at the modern economy and the opportunities that peoples and countries have of harnessing all the changes that are coming in for their personal development and the development of their economies. So, for example, if we look at services trade, that is really becoming an avenue or an opportunity for developing countries to catch up. And services trade would be just for listeners. Oh, for example, services trade are digitally delivered services, for example, some professional services, or if we're talking about business, outsourcing, so education.
Speaker 3:Education yes, it can be education. It can be other professional services, accounting, yes. And now that the technology is making these services more tradable, so before you kind of had to maybe travel to another country to consume that service, now maybe through digitalization, it can be sent abroad in the click of a mouse. And so now many more businesses, women-led businesses, small and medium enterprises are finding new opportunities in the digital economy. And then some of the findings is okay, is that enough to open an opportunity in services? Some of these opportunities have been available, but now, with technology, people are being able to use it and you know what else are countries doing, economies to really help those take advantage of these opportunities? So national policies that complement the opportunities that peoples and economies have through the world trading system are really important. We also want to look at those complementing policies that countries might take in MSMEs development, in trade, finance, in women being engaged in the economy. All of those are important to complement what we're doing here.
Speaker 1:And, Ralph, from your point of view as chief economist, are there things in this trade report that make you a bit uneasy?
Speaker 2:I mean let me maybe explain a little bit what the report is about and what we find, and you'll see there's good news and bad news in there, if you will. What we're trying to do in this report is we're trying to understand how trade and trade policy affects inclusiveness, both between countries and within countries. So you could also think about development and inclusiveness if you want to think about inclusiveness within countries and inclusiveness if you want to think about inclusiveness within countries. And what we find is, of course or maybe not of course, but I think it's something that is well understood here in our community that in general, trade has been a very powerful force for reducing between country inequality. We talked before about the rise of trade because of our predictable rules Since 1995, for example, since the foundation of the WTO, extreme poverty in the world, so the rate of extreme poverty has been reduced from 40% to 10% because of growth in many countries that was also export-led. So that's the good news, even within country inequality. If you look at within country inequality, you read a lot about this going up and it's true that within country inequality in some countries has risen, but we don't see a strong correlation with trade openness, for example, which goes to show that. You know, more trade doesn't necessarily mean more inequality, so that's the good news.
Speaker 2:But what we really want to focus on in this report is not so much, you know, just explaining what's all good about international trade, but also taking a hard look at what hasn't worked. Why have some countries maybe not converged as quickly as others, and why have some people within individual countries maybe not benefited from international trade as much as others? And I can give you some of the figures. But the main message is really what Johanna already summarized. So the main message is that less trade is not going to solve the problem.
Speaker 2:So less trade is not going to make us develop faster. It's not going to help countries and people left behind Maybe I can say it like that but more trade alone is also not going to do it. So we really need trade and complementary policies, and here in our trade jargon, we always talk about trade, and you know trade and development, trade and digital trade, and sustainability and, in some sense, what we are saying in the report. To address these challenges, you also need a WTO and approach. So it's not something that we can do alone, but we have to do it together with other international organizations. We have to do it together with complementary domestic policies, as Joanna emphasized, and so on.
Speaker 1:So, reading your report, you have got, as you said, this inclusivity, and you also talk about climate change. I'll come on to that in a minute. But let's look at inclusivity, because you highlight groups which tend to be shut out or not benefit as they should from trade, and they are women, surprise, surprise. Ethnic minorities, perhaps indigenous groups, so say, I'm a woman, I've got a group of women from from, from an indigenous group somewhere in in south america, and we've got a great product which we would like to sell, but we've got no road and no train line and a government who doesn't listen. How can the WTO help us?
Speaker 3:We have a number of initiatives that try to address those type of issues. First, in the formal work of the WTO, making sure that there is market access. If it's a good that they can go to the other country with the least amount of barriers formal and not formal barriers so that they can sell their products in the same conditions as the national producer. But beyond that, as Ralph was saying, that is not enough. There have to be complementary efforts. So we have a lot of work that we do here at the WTO on trade capacity building.
Speaker 3:We just had our Aid for Trade conference here last month and where we got to see a lot of the work that is being done at the national, regional and international level, especially to help these groups access the opportunities. So, for example, at the WTO, our members have gotten together and many of them have formed a working group on trade and gender to especially put it on lens of women to trade policy and to see what more can be done so that they can take advantage of opportunities or address challenges that are coming from trade. Another group working group is with msmes and is also looking at this issue how to link msmes to supply chains so that they can benefit from trade opportunities. What are governments doing? It's a great forum for governments and civil society to share experiences of what is working and when issues are not working, what can we do to address them.
Speaker 2:And if I could add one thing to that, because you had this image of perhaps a group of women in a remote village in Noor Street, so that then had this image of perhaps a group of women in a remote village and no street. So that then makes me of course think of e-commerce or maybe of digital trade.
Speaker 1:Well say, they have no internet connection.
Speaker 2:Well, that was going to be my point of the WTO end, because what do you need for good? Well, yes, you need the right regulatory framework in place, and this is something that all members are working on here. Think of e-signatures, think of privacy when it comes to sharing data, international payment systems and so on. But then you also need electricity, for example. You also need Internet, and much of the world, in some of these disadvantaged regions, you don't have it, which is exactly why we are saying what we are saying that, yes, we need the work that we do here at the WTO, but that alone is not going to fix it. We need to team up, just as Johanna said, with our partners, like the World Bank, for example, that can work on the hardware, so to speak. That underpins the software that I think our members here are working on.
Speaker 1:Some of these governments would have the money themselves. They just choose not to invest in supporting that little women's cooperative. I mean, how do you persuade them? As an economist, you know, persuade them, you know, actually this would be a good investment for you. Persuade them as an economist, you know persuade them.
Speaker 2:You know, actually, this would be a good investment for you. I mean, obviously, you know, here at the WTO, it's not so much that we, you know, get involved in domestic policies in that sense. So there's nothing here in the WTO, you know, where we would say well, you have to do it this way or you have to do it that way. You know, with some exceptions that Johanna mentioned, that certain regulations have to be, you know not, they have to be non-discriminatory and not, you know, more trade restrictive, as necessary, for example. But I think one thing that our members are increasingly exploring is what we call this deliberative function and basically it just means talking to each other, sharing information. You know, and perhaps one member is going to say well, you know, having supported women in my country has been, you know, really such a tremendous success, because now we see, you know, higher growth rates, lower, you know, poverty rates and so on. Why don't you try it yourself? Why don't you come to my country and see what I've done?
Speaker 2:So I do think, you know, beyond the negotiations and all the legal work, I think that's being done. I think there's also just a lot of information exchange and frankly, it's fascinating. There's 164 countries soon 166, coming from so many different perspectives, and I mean you talk about the diversity and inclusion. I mean just that. I mean that you have all these in a room, just that. I mean that you have all these in a room. At least, personally, I also find it extremely fascinating to see this range of perspectives on so many issues. So you've got to think that you know, if you listen, you can also learn something.
Speaker 3:And I do think that it's also important. Maybe, ralph, you can talk a little bit about what your division does in terms of sharing data and sharing facts around the world. We undertake research projects with other international organizations that complement our abilities so that we can put to the service of our members facts and figures that they might then use to make their own decisions and, you know, base their own policy considerations.
Speaker 2:That's true. I was so busy praising our members I forgot mentioning what we also do Praise yourself as well, exactly, no, no, you're right.
Speaker 2:You're right, johanna. Of course, one of the things that we really want to do as a secretariat is be a knowledge hub on trade-related issues, and the division that I'm heading plays an important role in this effort, because we want to produce the or offer the data, we want to offer the analysis and also the research that helps our members make evidence-based decisions, and I mean the evidence on some of these issues is quite clear. It speaks for itself. So you know I don't need to. You know, presenting the evidence is sometimes yeah enough. You don't have to then follow up and say you should do this or you should do that.
Speaker 1:Well, let's come on to another section of your report, because you say presenting the evidence is often enough. Your report says that the WTO should encourage greenhouse gas reduction. You've got evidence that this is good for trade, because many countries are looking at the cost of this and thinking, oh, we've taken so many hits with the pandemic conflict in Europe and Ukraine. We can't invest everything we want to in this right now. Where is the incentive?
Speaker 2:I mean, maybe I can start. So obviously this is not the place here where countries negotiate contracts, climate policies directly.
Speaker 3:But it's in your report as advice.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's the Paris process for that. But there is an important overlap, I think, between this environmental discussion and the trade discussion that we also have to face here. So think about international trade. When most people think about international trade, they think about transport. And when they think about transport, they think about the dirty trucks, the dirty ships, the dirty boats, planes.
Speaker 2:So immediately you come to this conclusion well, trade must be bad for the environment. But then the point we're making not just in this report, but this has been part of our narrative for a while now is to say, look, transport emissions are important and the transport sector by all means should work on reducing these transport emissions. But there's also production emissions and there's large variation in production emissions across countries. So, to the extent that you buy something from a greener origin, on balance, trade can actually be good for the environment. And then, if you start pushing this a little bit further, if you stop there, you would say, well, we all need to buy everything from I don't know what the greenest countries are, but some of the usual suspects. Obviously, we can't buy everything from these green countries.
Speaker 2:So we've come up with this idea of environmental gains from trade and environmental comparative advantage.
Speaker 2:So let me maybe explain this briefly. So we all know that there's economic gains from trade, and the economic gains from trade come from countries specializing in what they're relatively good at, and, similarly, there's also environmental gains from trade, and they come from countries specializing in what they're relatively green at. And the difference, though, is that these environmental gains from trade, they're just not going to happen. So it's not that trade is automatically good for the environment in that respect, but you need the support and climate policies to make this work. So we have a simulation, for example, where we show if there was a worldwide carbon tax, this would, of course, reduce greenhouse gas emissions, but more than one third of the resulting reduction in greenhouse gas emissions would be due to these environmental gains from trade. So trade is an important force multiplier for climate policies, which is why we need to discuss these two issues together. That's really the main point. It's again a trade and issue where we need to respond with a WTO and answer.
Speaker 1:Well, joanna, as Deputy Director General, you will be talking to the member states. I do come back to this. Wto should encourage greenhouse gas reduction. Now I'm sure that that encouragement will fall on open ears in small island states who are seeing existential threat because of global warming, because the sea levels are rising. But how are you going to encourage the big global economies, the biggest emitters of greenhouse gases? What would your encouragement?
Speaker 3:be well.
Speaker 3:We we are looking at this in a holistic manner.
Speaker 3:Um the last year, at cop 28, we had a trade day?
Speaker 3:Um where the wto was present with other international organizations, talking about how trade can actually be a tool to help address the many facets of the climate emergency.
Speaker 3:It's not only that one, and so there are many approaches that the different economies are taking, and the important thing is how can we put together a type of framework where they can talk to each other and understand what each one is doing and, if possible, minimize the spillovers in terms of economic spillovers and, more importantly, trade spillovers? Because we're trying to ensure that trade is seen as a tool that can help countries address their climate emergencies, but also other challenges that they're facing. Today, you said, you know, after the COVID pandemic, many of the economies are depressed, many countries are not growing as fast as they were doing, and they look at trade as a tool for progress, for development, but at the same time, we have a climate crisis. So how can we work together so that these type of policies support each other as much as they can? And we are taking, you know, important steps in trying to address these two issues in a complementary manner.
Speaker 1:Just moving on to another which stood out to me because again, I'm a news journalist and I see what some of the world's biggest economies are talking about at the moment. We have seen I think we all know it a certain retreat from multilateralism in the last few years. We have seen slogans like my Country First, and that includes protectionism and trade barriers. Now your report says very clearly trade barriers actually rarely benefit a country's economy. Why not?
Speaker 2:You know, we had a whole report on this last year and you know my diagnosis of this.
Speaker 2:It's not that I mean you're right that you know trade is under pressure and also the rules-based trading system is under pressure.
Speaker 2:And my reading of this it's not so much that people don't believe in the economic gains from trade anymore, but it's that some people have come to the conclusion that we need to sacrifice some of these economic gains from trade in order to pursue more important policy goals, for example, such as reducing poverty and inequality which is kind of what we're talking about in this report such as achieving a sustainable economy what we just talked about this report such as achieving a sustainable economy, what we just talked about but also maintaining peace and security, and I'm not just talking about national security, also resilience Think about, you know, supply chain security, for example, and part of what we tried to show last year and to some extent, we continue this year is that this way of putting it is just missing the point.
Speaker 2:So trade, if you play it well, is actually part of the solution and not part of the problem. So you don't need to give up the economic gains from trade in pursuit of these more important objectives. So what we're trying to convince the world off with previous reports, but also with this report, is that, yes, you need trade for economic prosperity, but you also need trade to build a more secure, inclusive and sustainable world.
Speaker 1:But to the specific question about trade barriers, you say often they don't work. But we do hear government leaders talking about protecting our workers in a particular industry. It could be the car industry, it could be the steel industry. You were saying those. I mean protection is basically trade barriers. You're saying usually they don't work. What does work then? If an industry needs to transition to something else, what?
Speaker 3:does work, then if an industry needs to transition to something else, I think that we have to recognize the context where we are in right now. I think that after the financial crisis, we have seen many economies come under stress and then we have the COVID pandemic and inflationary pressure. So we do have to understand that many of the leaders are facing a lot of pressures and that they need to react quickly to them, and sometimes many of the policies that one has to have at the international, regional and local level take time for them to function.
Speaker 3:Our political system isn't set up long term, so for example, let's say that a country is facing competition in a sector that wasn't going to be, a sector where they were going to be competitive in the medium to long term right, and they are putting in policies in place to make that transition, upskill the workforce, invest in more digital and do other measures, but those take time to take effect and sometimes the public is looking for more immediate answers.
Speaker 3:And the politicians are looking to win the election, and so sometimes these type of situations happen, and this is where we try to bring in the research and information that is available to members and to the public on how to face this type of crisis and what options are out there that can help.
Speaker 1:Okay well, we're actually almost our half hour there. That can help Okay well, we're actually almost at our half hour, amazingly. But I do have a couple more questions. The slogan you've got for your public forum is re-globalization. I just wonder how you think that will land with your normal person in the street, who might have a bit of a negative view of what's been termed globalization. There are a lot of people who believe, rightly or wrongly, that they are the losers in the globalization process.
Speaker 2:I mean that's why we call it re-globalization, because it's not supposed to be just going back to the past and doing exactly what we always did, but it's about using trade to be part of the solution. So in our report last year, we defined re-globalization as extending trade integration to more economies, people and issues. So with the issues we already talked about trade and the environment that would be an example that you need to think about these two things together. I mean, just liberalizing trade is not going to help you with achieving your sustainability goals. But if you understand the complementarity between climate policy and trade policy, trade can become part of the solution.
Speaker 2:I think about economic resilience. We haven't talked about that at all. Lots of people are now under the impression. Well, after the COVID pandemic, supply chains were disrupted and we can't really trust foreign countries anymore to supply critical goods, so we all need to make them ourselves. But the reality of the COVID pandemic was that I mean, if you think about our experience, at least here in this part of the world, many of us started working from home. Where did all this home office equipment come from? Where did all the computer screens come from? Where did the personal protective equipment come from when did the vaccines come from? All international trade and global supply chains. So what this means is that you need trade. But does this mean you need trade? Does this mean there may not be a problem with you know, over concentration, for example, of production in certain countries and regions. No, but it means the answer, then, should be extending trade integration to more economies, deepening and diversifying supply chains, perhaps also to economies that haven't benefited so far from international trade. So that's kind of the idea.
Speaker 1:So it's re-globalization is trade, global trade but fair.
Speaker 3:It's not only more trade, it's better trade.
Speaker 3:And think of the counterfactual. Will less trade solve some of these global issues? Not necessarily, because trade gives you access. I come from a developing country, right, and so trade gives us access to new technologies that we need to address the green transition, to help the digital economy. So, definitely, more trade is important, but better trade is even better. So how can we bring in women into the green economy, into the digital economy? And so I think that there's lessons learned from the past and I think there's great opportunities to do more.
Speaker 1:Okay, well, final question just to each of you as we've said, we are emerging from some global shocks, the pandemic conflict not emerging from that, unfortunately. Prior to that, as we've've said, there was a lot of talk about globalization, and not in a particularly positive, or not always in a positive sense. So I would ask you first, ralph, and then I'll give the last word to your deputy director general.
Speaker 1:Reassure your average person who might be a little bit worried that what they are working in their job might not be secure. Reassure them that global trade, done properly, following your advice, will be beneficial. That it's not good to retreat.
Speaker 2:I mean, let me maybe, you know, just go back to the basics here and forget about all the trade and issues. I mean, trade is, at the end of the day, nothing like, is nothing more than the division of labor, and I think everybody understands that the division of labor is a fundamental pillar of our prosperity. Like, forget about international trade. Suppose you were to produce everything that you consume, so every shirt you wear, every piece of bread you eat, you would all have to make yourself. Everyone would understand that this doesn't make any sense. So what happens? Well, you may be specialized in making the shirt, I may be specialized in making the bread and then we need to exchange.
Speaker 1:No, no, you can make the shirt, I make the shirt.
Speaker 2:And then we need to exchange, right, and that's trade, and there's really no, and I think everybody would agree that that's the. I mean, the division of labor is the foundation of our prosperity within our country. Now why should the gains from this exchange magically stop at international borders? That's something I've never understood and it's also just not the case.
Speaker 1:Final word to you, then, joanna, your average worker. Then nothing to fear from re-globalization, nothing to fear from the World Trade Organization.
Speaker 3:In fact, everything to gain from trade that's done properly.
Speaker 3:Yes, definitely, trade is part of the solution to many of the local issues that are affecting an economy, to the regional ones and to the global ones. It's an opportunity to get those goods and services that we cannot produce at home. It's an opportunity to sell where we can't sell abroad, and when I work, for example, with small enterprises made up of women, we realize that they specialize in certain products that don't have economies of scale, so they can't really sell at home because in some developing countries it just becomes too expensive. They don't have the economies of scale, so they can't really sell at home because in some developing countries it just becomes too expensive. They don't have the economies of scale. But exporting gives them ample opportunities to be able to sell their product to multiple audiences, and so it can definitely trade be a win-win, and I think that member states are really doing their best to reform the WTO to make sure that it continues to help countries eliminate poverty and bring more people into the prosperity and games of trade.
Speaker 1:Okay. Well, that brings us to the end of this edition of Inside Geneva. Joanna Hill and Ralph also thank you both very much. I hope our listeners. I certainly have learned something. Ralph also thank you both very much. I hope our listeners. I certainly have learned something. I hope you have too, and maybe think the next time you buy your loaf of bread or your computer or your shirt that you are contributing to a process which we all benefit from and that if we benefit from it fairly, it does probably need some regulation. I'm Imogen folks. That's it for Inside Geneva for this week. Thanks for listening. A reminder you've been listening to Inside Geneva, a Swiss Info production. You can email us on insidegeneva at swissinfoch and subscribe to us and review us wherever you get your podcasts. Check out our previous episodes how the International Red Cross unites prisoners of war with their families, or why survivors of human rights violations turn to the UN in Geneva for justice. I'm Imogen Folks. Thanks again for listening.
