Tales from the Brown Desk -Episode 25- Theft, Burglary, Robbery, Corporate Personhood, & Florida Man

Weekly Criminal Law Podcast, Tales from the Brown Desk, brought to you by Rigney Law LLC. Tales from the Brown Desk is a free flowing conversation involving two foul-mouthed attorneys. It may include graphic descriptions of sexual activity, violence, and traffic law. It may not be suitable for children. Listener discretion advised.

Episode 25. In this episode, Indianapolis criminal defense attorneys, Jacob Rigney and Kassi Rigney, talk about theft, burglary, and robbery and the differences between them. We also talk about corporate personhood and how a pharmaceutical company recently pled guilty to criminal charges, and of course the latest Florida Man news.

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Jacob Rigney – It’s Friday afternoon. We’ve locked the door, because that sushi I just ate is not sitting well, and no one should be subjected to that. And also because it’s time for another edition of our weekly podcast Tales from the Brown Desk. I’m Jake Rigney of Rigney law LLC. With me as usual as my law partner, wife, and my next ex-wife, Kassi Rigney. Teri, Ulm is our host, topic selector, Florida Man monitor, and email screener. Teri, did we get enough emails to spur us to buy the Florida Man board game?

Teri Ulm – We’re one shy, and I thought about emailing myself, but I don’t know if that would count. So…

Jacob Rigney – We only got one email.

Teri Ulm – No. We’re one shy.

Jacob Rigney – Oh. We needed three. We got two.

Teri Ulm – We got two.

Jacob Rigney – Wow.

Teri Ulm – I thought about emailing myself, but…

Jacob Rigney – Alright, here’s what we’re going to do. We’re going to extend it for one week. Okay. So we still need… But I’m going to push the limit up to two. We need two more emails, not just one. And they have to be from different people than the first two. Because my mom and your mom don’t count twice. I mean they count once. They don’t count twice. Friendly reminder of Tales from the Brown Desk is a free flowing conversation involving two foul mouth attorneys. It may include graphic descriptions of sexual activity, violence, and fast and furious car fights. It may not be suitable for children, Paul Walker, Vin Diesel, Michelle Rodriguez, Taye Diggs, Wonder Woman, or the guy that played Han. I read recently that Han isn’t actually dead in the Fast and Furious franchise. Did you guys hear this? They are bringing him back to life. That’s Han from Fast and Furious. Not Han from Star Wars. That guy is still totally dead. Listener discretion is advised. Here’s Teri.

Teri Ulm – Hello, everyone. Hi, Jake. How are you today?

Jacob Rigney – I’m okay. Teri. Or, I’ll be okay. Let’s put it that way.

Teri Ulm – Okay. Hi, Kassi. How are you?

Kassi Rigney – Hi, Teri. I’m fine. Thank you.

Teri Ulm – Good. So last week, we talked about IMPD’s new oversight board, the trial penalty and the Sixth Amendment right to trial, and then we answered some commonly asked criminal law questions.

Jacob Rigney – Okay.

Theft, Burglary, and Robbery in Indiana

Teri Ulm – Now, this week, we’re going to talk about theft, burglary, and robbery.

Jacob Rigney – Oh, yeah. That’s good. I’m glad we’re going to talk about it, because these are phrases that people use interchangeably and they are not interchangeable.

Teri Ulm – Yeah, I think I may use them interchangeably. We’re also going to talk about a pharmaceutical company that recently pled guilty to criminal charges.

Jacob Rigney – Right. The company took an oath to tell the truth and said it committed some crimes. Very interesting.

Teri Ulm – Yeah, I think so. So we’re going to jump right in to our discussion on burglary, robbery and theft. So, these words are not used interchangeably? They mean different things?

Jacob Rigney – They do mean different things. They signify completely different crimes with different elements, and they mean that a different thing happened to you. So, you cannot just say I’ve been robbed and it mean anything you want it to mean. That means a very specific thing happened to you, and people often use it incorrectly.

Teri Ulm – So I assume these three different types of crimes have different levels. What’s the lowest level one of burglary, robbery, or theft?

Kassi Rigney – I would say to back up. We’re all talking about taking of property, and the question is how was that property taken? Theft is shoplifting a classic example. Burglary, you’re going into a building do it. Robbery you’re taking it from a person by some level of force. The highest level you can get on a theft I is a level 5 felony, and that’s because if it’s over $50,000, you get to a level 5 felony. So theft is the most simple. $750 or less you get charged with a misdemeanor. $750 to $50,000 you’re looking at a level 6 felony. Above 50,000 you’re looking at a level 5 felony. There’s no deadly weapon. There’s no bodily injury. It’s a financial evaluation there. When you’re talking about burglary and robbery, you start with the lowest level, which is level 5 on both of those. You break into a non-dwelling, a non-residents, not someone’s home, without a deadly weapon, no one gets hurt, you’re looking at a level 5. Same as a robbery, You can take something by force, but you didn’t use a deadly weapon, and you didn’t hurt anybody.

Teri Ulm – You mentioned, I may have these numbers wrong, but theft of $750 to $50,000. Tat’s such a wide range.

Jacob Rigney – It is. Although the irony is that the current version of theft came into effect in the 2014 code change. But before that the range was even wider. Before that, you could get charged with a level 6 felony for any dollar amount, and it went all the way up to $100,000. So the range is actually gotten smaller for what is a level 6 felony. But back in the day, if you stole a packet of Kool-Aid for 25 cents, you could get charged with a felony.

Teri Ulm – Wow. Where did these ranges come from? Like this $750 theft? If Chad goes out and steals something worth $750, he could be facing the same type of sentence as if he sold something more than $50,000?

Jacob Rigney – Well, $49,999, but yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Those numbers come basically, from them seeing the problem. I think the legislature saw the problems that they were having with the old level 6 felony, or the old D felony, where it was anything from zero to $100,000. So they wanted to shorten that range a little bit. People were getting charged with felonies for less than $10, less than $5 worth of stuff that they were stealing. And there was some righteous push back about that. So that’s where $750 came from. They said, okay. Fine. We’re going to make sure that it’s only a misdemeanor, if it’s less than $750. In terms of why the upper level number came down, I’m not sure about that. Actually, no. I still don’t know. If anything, it should have gone up, because money is worth less than it was when they originally passed that law. When they passed that law, $100,000 was probably worth $250,000 now. But for some reason, they brought it down. I’m not sure why they did that.

An Example of Theft

Teri Ulm – So can you give us an example of a theft incident?

Kassi Rigney – Chad goes to Walmart, He’s hungry and wants to grill out. He goes to the freezer section and selects a steak. He places the steak in his pants and then exits the store.

Jacob Rigney – Without paying.

Kassi Rigney – Yes. Exits the store without paying.

Teri Ulm – Okay. If Chad went into my kitchen and did that, is that theft?

Jacob Rigney – That depends on how he got into your kitchen. If you invited Chad in, or you left your door propped open so that Chad did not have to use any force to enter your kitchen, then that is also theft. But, if your door was closed and Chad had to use any force at all to push it open. Or in fact, even if your door was open but not open enough for somebody to walk all the way through, and so Chad had to use a little bit of force to push the door open a little bit further so he could come in, then it’s burglary.

Teri Ulm – Okay.

Jacob Rigney – Because he’s broken into your house your, which is a structure.

Example of Burglary

Teri Ulm – Can you give me, not this one we’re talking about, but the give me and the listeners an example of burglary?

Jacob Rigney – Sure. So, Chad is addicted to cigarettes and really enjoys them. So he waits till after the Yield tobacco shop closes. Then he climbs up onto the roof with a ladder, cuts a hole in the roof, comes down through the roof into the insulation, comes down through the paneled ceiling, loads up a backpack full of smokes, and thinks, yeah! I never have to buy cigarettes again. And then repels with a bungee cord straight out of the tobacco shop back out onto the roof, where he, George Clooney, Brad Pitt, and Don Cheadle make off with their 11 cartons of smokes.

Example of Robbery

Teri Ulm – And now an example of a robbery?

Kassi Rigney – During store hours, Chad enters the cigarette shop, and goes up to the cash register, and threatens the cashier that he’s going to kill him if he doesn’t give him all the cartons of cigarettes, or 11 cartons of cigarettes, and he picks them up and leaves.

Are Theft, Burglary, and Robbery Charges Usually Stacked with Other Charges?

Teri Ulm – Now in your experience, are these crimes typically stacked with other types of charges like home invasion or trespass?

Jacob Rigney – Some of them are. Some of them are not. Theft is not usually stacked with anything else. Unless the person who’s accused of committing a theft is also accused of fighting the people that were trying to stop them from leaving. Like if the Chad with the meat in his pants scenario at the supermarket, and the supermarket tries to stop him. They’re like, hey! Take that meat out of your pants, Chad. And he’s like not today, but call me later. And there’s a physical altercation, then he could get charged with other things based on that, but theft is not usually the kind of thing where they find a different thing to also charged with. Robbery is hit or miss. Sometimes they’ll stack a theft charge, but if they do, it’s usually because the robbery charge is a little bit weak. And most of the time, they just don’t. But with burglary, they almost always do put a theft charge in there unless the burglary didn’t involve a theft. Because when you hear a burglary, you think theft.

Teri Ulm – Right.

Jacob Rigney – But that’s not actually what the burglary statute says.

Burglary Does Not Always Been Theft

Teri Ulm – You can burglarize something or someone and not take something?

Jacob Rigney – Yes. The burglary statute says that it is a crime to break and enter the structure of another person with the intent to commit theft or a felony they’re in. So you commit the crime as soon as you break and enter. Not when you actually take something. You don’t have to actually steal anything. You just have to intend to steal things when you break and enter.

Breaking into a Dwelling With an Intent of Committing a Felony, Like Rape, is Considered Burglary

Teri Ulm – What if Chad’s intentions of breaking in a dwelling is to rape somebody in there. Is that burglary?

Jacob Rigney – Yes. Because he intends to commit a felony inside. It’s the same if you break into a house in order to shoot someone. Or, you break into a house in order to rob them.

Kassi Rigney – And this is where, you ask that question. He would be charged with both, burglary and rape if he got there. But that’s one of those things that as a defense attorney, I don’t like when people say stacking charges. In that case, he should be charged with burglary and rape. And is that stacking? It’s just charging with what the facts allege. So, I think that your reaction there hits to that. We’re talking before about stacking charges as a bad thing that prosecutors do. Well, it’s not always that way.

Possible Defenses in Theft, Burglary, Robbery Charges

Teri Ulm – Interesting. Now, can you give us some examples that a criminal defense attorney may use in these types of charges, burglary, robbery, or theft? What are defenses a person could have?

Jacob Rigney – Well, it’s difficult to categorize defenses in the first place, because every case is a little bit different, and I have no idea what’s going to come across my desk tomorrow. I don’t really talk about the ones on my desk right now. One example of a defense, I tried a robbery case a long time ago when I was a prosecutor, and the defense in that case was essentially that it was a misunderstanding. Because the robbery statute says you take property by force or threat of force, right? So if you beat him beat somebody up and take a pack of smokes from them. That’s easy. That’s force. But you can say things to people that make them feel like they need to give you their smokes that might be ambiguous. You know what I mean? So that the defense in that case was, essentially I didn’t try to place her in fear. I wasn’t trying to scare her or take this property by threat of force. I was just panhandling and she got scared. And so I left. Coincidentally, I won that trial. The judge decided that was robbery, but that was the defense in that one. Every criminal case is different. And you’re always looking at every element of the offense and trying to figure out what the state can prove all those elements are not. So literally your defense in every case can be any element of it, including who did it.

Can Theft, Robbery, and Burglary Charges be Expunged?

Teri Ulm – Now can robbery, burglary, and theft, can these charges be expunged?

Jacob Rigney – Theft can fairly easily. Robbery and burglary, not so much. They both can still be expunged, but those are discretionary, left up to the judge. And even if they are expunged, they’ll still show up in background searches. There will just be a notation at the bottom of the case chronology that says oh yeah, and this was expunged. But with theft, since that’s usually just a misdemeanor or a level six felony, or back in the old days it was a D felony, those can be expunged by right, and when they are they are not made for available for public consumption anymore. And so they kind of do disappear. Now it’s not perfect, and sometimes they’ll still show up somewhere, but they’re not supposed to.

Purdue Pharma Pleads Guilty to Criminal Charges

Teri Ulm – So now we’re going to go and move on to a news story that’s making headlines right now. The Indiana Gazette reports that drug-maker Purdue Pharma, the company behind the powerful prescription painkiller, OxyContin, that experts say touched off an opioid epidemic, will plead guilty to federal criminal charges as part of a settlement of more than 8 billion dollars.

Jacob Rigney – Billion with a B.

Teri Ulm – Billion. It’s reported that the plea deal does not release any of the company’s executives or owners and members of the wealthy Sackler family from criminal liability, and a criminal investigation is ongoing. Note that the Sackler family was once listed as one of the nation’s wealthiest families in Forbes magazine. Family members say that they acted ethically and lawfully. But, some state attorney generals say that the agreement fails to hold the Sackler’s accountable. Connecticut Attorney General William Tong said the federal government have the power to put this family in jail and they didn’t. Instead they took fines and penalties that Purdue will likely never fully pay. As part of the plea deal, the company admits that it violated federal law, and that it knowingly and intentionally conspired and agreed with others to aid and abet the dispensing of medication without a legitimate medical purpose and outside the usual course of professional practice to boost its manufacturing quotas.

Jacob Rigney – Right.

Teri Ulm – Yeah. The company will plead guilty to three counts, including conspiracy to defraud the United States, violating a federal anti kickback laws. Now at this crime was committed by a person, what type of penalties would they be facing? Like why is nobody going to jail here?

Jacob Rigney – Well, so let’s start with a couple of facts before we get into all the opinions we have, okay. First fact is, people may still go to jail. I think I read that the investigation is still ongoing, and that criminal liability has not been… They’ve not been absolved of criminal liability. So they were not given immunity for any of this. But it is extraordinarily striking to me that a person can get caught with dividing up 11 grams worth of cocaine on the street, and look at 10 to 30 years in prison for it. Meanwhile, this family sold billions of dollars worth of drugs, and greased doctors poms to get them to do it, to get them to prescribe it by giving them ridiculous fees to speak at events, in return for convincing them to issue more prescriptions that got thousands of people addicted to this drug and caused 10s of thousands of overdoses. And they’re like, well, we gave the money back. And that’s good enough.

Teri Ulm – Yeah, not for me.

Jacob Rigney – It’s stunning. It really is. Also is weird that their name is Purdue pharmaceuticals. I do not believe they’re related to the school. And I can’t figure out how there was never like some kind of, like trademark lawsuit about this. Seriously. I’m not allowed to call myself the Harvard Law Firm. I mean, we should maybe. We should do that. Should we just change it to… Yeah. We work for the Harvard Law Firm.

Kassi Rigney – I suspect it all comes back that there’s more than one Purdue, and they’re allowed to do their own Purdue thing under their name. Like we couldn’t stop someone else from opening Rigney Law.

Jacob Rigney – Not if their names were Rigney.

Kassi Rigney – Right.

Jacob Rigney – Right. But the Sackler family, their names, not Purdue. Their name is Sackler.

Kassi Rigney – Are they the original founders?

Teri Ulm – Yeah, I did a little research and the one in the family that started the business, his middle name is Purdue.

Jacob Rigney – Oh, that’s weak. That’s weak as hell. Mitch Daniels ought to sue somebody over that.

How Can a Company Plead Guilty? Who Speaks for a Company?

Teri Ulm – Yes. And then can you also explain to me and the listeners, how in the world is a company charged with the crime? Like how can a company plead guilty? Like who is standing there pleading it? Does the company have to waive its right to trial? Who speaks for the company? How does the company talk?

Jacob Rigney – Well, the CEO talks for the company, or the company’s lawyers talk for the company, just like we do for folks in criminal court. But because a corporation technically has person-hood in the United States, they can be charged with crimes. Obviously, since they do not have a physical human form, there is no one that can be put in prison for the crimes of the corporation. Those persons individual crimes can cause them to go to prison, and that might still happen in this case, but we don’t know. But the corporation has also been charged with a crime and has been punished in this agreement where it pleads guilty and agrees to pay restitution.

Teri Ulm – So you said a word there, restitution. Is that what that should be called instead of a settlement? Like I’ve always viewed settlements as one way that civil lawsuits are resolved. And I didn’t know settlements were part of criminal cases.

Jacob Rigney – Right. Settlement is not a term of art. It does not mean a specific thing beyond the parties agreed to resolve a thing. So technically, any plea agreement can be called a settlement. Settlements, on the other hand, can’t be called plea agreements, because no one’s pleading to anything. And restitution or judgment, those are all just judgments to pay money to a particular person. In this case, I think the judgment is to the US government. But it’s weird, because it doesn’t seem like it makes sense to file a criminal case against an entity that isn’t a person that can’t go to jail, right. But there are some benefits to it. The main benefit is that you can negotiate these types of large payments in restitution from a corporation that you would never have been able to have gotten from its individual employees. So even the CEO doesn’t have a billion dollars to give you in an agreement. But the company does.

Kassi Rigney – Well, and part of the settlement is that they’re giving over control. There are some outside forces coming in and going to start, I don’t know if it’s part of their ongoing investigation, or just getting them back on the right track. But there was. It was more than just paying restitution,

Jacob Rigney – Right. But potentially, the country’s biggest drug dealers, the Sackler’s, were removed from their board and no longer are allowed to run their company. They still own it, and they still get to collect all the stock dividends or whatever it is. They still get the profits from it. But it’ll be run by a trust now and a board.

Teri Ulm – That’s crazy. These drug dealers, they still own this company. They’re not on the board. They’re not running anymore, but they’re still profiting from it.

Jacob Rigney – Right. It’s like if we charge Pablo Escobar except instead of charging him we charged his cartel, told him he could just take the money he already made and go chill out, he just had to give us a little bit of it back. And we keep giving him the profits we were making from selling his cocaine here going forward.

Kassi Rigney – This life for the one percenters. They’re making these deals. Pharmaceutical companies are in with the politicians, and I’ll give a plug to a book I read, American Pain by John Temple. Even as a eight plus year deputy drug prosecutor, it was very educational. It talks about how this pandemic or epidemic of the opiates started. And it’s pretty crazy. And it’s all money. And it’s historically there have been spikes and other substances in the past that the government would if you didn’t know the government decides manufacturing limits for these kind of drugs. And you’ve probably heard of what when they had math, they didn’t call it that, but in the 70s, the diet pills those things that. But back then our elected officials had some kind of moral compass, and when conversion of those drugs was getting out of hand, they keep the limits. But if you look back on the opiates, the manufacturing limits, despite the problems, keep going up, up up, up. And that’s because those politicians are getting paid. And they’re beholden to the dollar, not to the voters.

Jacob Rigney – Campaign donations.

Florida Man – Brought to you by the First Amendment

Teri Ulm – Yep. So now we’re going to cut to a short commercial break and when we come back, we will bring you the latest Florida Man news.

Kassi Rigney – Today’s update on Florida Man is brought to you by the First Amendment. You know, that Amendment designed to make sure we can speak against our government and go to church without the government being involved. That one. Turns out what it really meant was corporations can engage in unlimited political bribery, and there’s nothing you can do about it. Who knew?

Jacob Rigney – I knew. I know it’s a really important amendment too, because it’s the first one. Things that are important come first. That’s why I feed my dog before I feed my kids.

Kassi Rigney – What a country.

Jacob Rigney – You keep talking about America, I’ll have to introduce you to the Second Amendment too.

Florida Man Accused of Using a .24 Cent Packet of Kool-Aid to Rack up Nearly $1,000 in Fraudulent Charges

Teri Ulm – So it’s funny, Jake. You mentioned Kool-Aid earlier in this episode. Did you like read my notes?

Jacob Rigney – No, not at all. I had a case when I was a very young prosecutor where I prosecuted somebody for stealing six packs of Kool-Aid valued at, like, 15 cents a piece.

Kassi Rigney – I sent someone to prison for three years for stealing a candy bar.

Teri Ulm – Wow.

Kassi Rigney – In my defense, it was literally like the 15th felony conviction he had. And I threatened him with habitual. So he actually pled guilty and took that one. But I was a hard ass.

Teri Ulm – Yeah, I’d say. That’s expensive candy bar. I hope it was good.

Kassi Rigney – I bet if he would have pled open, he wouldn’t have gotten that from the judge. I like pleading open.

Teri Ulm – So News Channel 8 reports Florida Man is accused of using a 24 cent packet of Kool-Aid to rack up nearly $1,000 in fraudulent charges at Walmart.

Jacob Rigney – How?

Teri Ulm – Well. Police were called to the store on reports of a theft and progress. The store loss prevention officer watched Florida Man scan merchandise with the Kool-Aid packet concealed in his hand so that each…

Jacob Rigney – I’ve seen this. I’ve seen this scam before. It’s good though. Tell him how it works.

Teri Ulm  – Yeah, so each item that he rung up, rang up as 24 cents each. The worker told police she recognized Florida Man from a prior incident at the store. Yes. I love when they go back to the scene of the crime to commit another crime.

Jacob Rigney – This will surely work.

Teri Ulm – Right. She told police that in the prior incident Florida Man took a can of soda in a fan from off the shelf and then return them to the customer service receiving $9.48 cents.

Jacob Rigney – Without ever having bought them in the first place.

Teri Ulm – He was also previously accused of walking out of the store with a shopping cart of unpaid items including a scooter valued at $248, a dual navigation system valued at $119, and $160 worth of batteries. There’s a lot of batteries.

Jacob Rigney – What? A $160. Can you make math out of batteries? I think you can. Right?

Kassi Rigney – I think part of the inside can be used, but you got it like take it apart and like scrape the inside out or something. Right.

Jacob Rigney – The lithium out of it or something.

Teri Ulm – So he had a scooter, a dual navigation system, and $160 worth of batteries. That’s interesting.

Jacob Rigney – He was trying to he’s trying to make a rocket ship so he could fly to Louisiana and play heavy metal music at the hurricane.

Kassi Rigney – I wonder if people just forget where they commit all their crimes and that’s why they go back.

Is Grand Theft a Charge in Indiana?

Teri Ulm – They might. They might. Now deputies arrested him at the store, and he faces grand theft and shoplifting charges. Now are grand theft charges a thing in Indiana?

Jacob Rigney – No. There is no crime that’s called grand theft. Although I as we previously noted there are these different levels of theft, right. There’s the misdemeanor, the level 6 felony, and the level 5 felony. If you wanted, you could call the level 5 felony grand theft, and it would sound cooler, but not very many people get charged with that crime in the first place. Although I doubt, obviously, he had $75,000 worth of stuff. Whatever he had, it apparently met Florida’s upper limit and got him charged with Grand Theft. It sounds a lot more serious, doesn’t it?

Teri Ulm – Yeah, it does. With the grand in there.

Jacob Rigney – Yeah, he’s no thief. He’s a grand thief.

Florida Deputy Gave Kids Guns to Fight Demons

Teri Ulm – He is. Now Florida professionals are losing their minds. NBC 2 reports a Florida deputy gave kids guns to fight demons he said we’re in their home. Yeah, the now former Orange County Deputy is accused of giving a gun to a child in telling her to shoot anyone who entered his apartment. He also allegedly performed an exorcism on a second child. According to local NBC affiliate WESH, Florida Man was arrested after deputies were called to an apartment. Deputies said they found Florida Man with a gun at the apartment and saw young Florida Girl lying on the floor with a rifle. Florida Girl was wearing a Kevlar helmet and a bulletproof vest and she was ready to shoot anyone who entered the apartment. Florida Girl told deputies that when she woke up Florida me and told her there were demons in the house and they needed to burn things that were possessed. Florida Girl said they burn several items in the parking lot and perform the exorcism on our brother. Florida Man was taken to a hospital for a mental health evaluation under the Baker Act. And Florida Man was arrested after being released from the hospital. He’s facing child abuse charges.

Jacob Rigney – Yeah. That sounds appropriate.

Teri Ulm – If Indiana Man did what Florida Man did would that be the charge he’s charged with?

Jacob Rigney – Well in Indiana they don’t call that child abuse. They call it child neglect, right. It’s neglect of independent, is what it’s called.

Florida Man Attorney Accused of Being a Serial Bank Robber

Teri Ulm – Now Heavy reports that Florida Man attorney is accused of being a serial bank robber. After six robbery attempts two were successful. Yeah, Florida Man attorney.

Jacob Rigney – So here’s the thing about being a lawyer, right. And you noticed it with that first shoplifting scam, right? As as soon as you told me he was palming the Kool-Aid, I knew exactly what he was doing. As attorneys, we get exposed to many different types of scams. And sometimes you get it in your head that you could pull one off. And to be honest, I have one brewing in my head right now. That will totally work. I guarantee you it will work. I’m not going to do it because it’s not worth enough money for me to lose my law license and potentially my business over it. But I have a crime that would totally work. I’m not going to tell you what it is. Because somebody out there I’ll start using it and then I’ll get in trouble.

Teri Ulm – Jake Rigney said.

Jacob Rigney – Right. I got it off the podcast, the legal podcast. But there are so many different ways to scam and so many different schemes you can pull, I’m not even joking, Teri. When I was buying that sushi I was talking about earlier today and I was at the u-scan.

Teri Ulm – You thought about putting in your pants didn’t you?

Jacob Rigney – I didn’t think about putting in my pants, but I thought like I buy so much sushi at this place. I should really go get like a sticker for an apple and just scan the apple sticker and then just walk out with a sushi. I’ve got the receipt my hand. Nobody’s going to say anything to me. I’m in a suit and tie. I didn’t do it. I thought about it.

Teri Ulm – Now prosecutors say Florida Man attorney was leading a double life as a successful business lawyer on one hand and a bank robber on the other. Federal prosecutors have charged Florida Man lawyer with committing a series of bank robberies and attempted bank robberies in South Florida over the last three weeks. The criminal complaint charges Florida Man attorney with robbing $1,050 from one bank and $800 from another bank. It also charges him with attempting to rob four banks around the same time. According to the allegations in the complaint Florida Man attorney followed a consistent approach during his six robbery attempts. Again two were successful. Well, not very successful. A thousand dollars? Yeah, Florida Man lawyer would enter each bank alone, walking up to the teller window, and ask the teller for assistance with making a withdraw. Florida Man attorney would pass a note to the bank teller that contained hand written instructions and warnings. Write the warnings included: Don’t touch the alarm or call the police. Empty all your $50s and $100s, and put them in an envelope. And keep calm, and give all the money to me. I have a gun. Florida Man attorney would take his note with him on the way out the bank. The FBI issued law enforcement bulletins containing descriptions and bank surveillance images of the robber. And as Florida Man was casing out another bank, one of the Florida police recognized him and arrested him. At the time of his arrest, he had a ballpoint hammer tucked in his waistband, and he carried what appeared to be a bank robbery demand notes, and instructions on how to commit bank robberies.

Jacob Rigney – Now you don’t take the tools to the case. This is where he messed up. He has not studied bank robberies enough. You do not take your bank robbing tools when you’re just going to check out the bank.

Teri Ulm – The affidavit also describes items that officers found inside Florida Man attorneys backpack including draft and final versions of two bank notes. Leave it…

Kassi Rigney – You save your previous drafts? What do you want to go back and see?

Teri Ulm – But leave it to the attorney to have these drafts that will final version of which one’s going to work the best.

Jacob Rigney – I don’t like this rough draft. I’m going to start over.

Kassi Rigney – I mean, I could see that being a note you’d want to take some time, but do you keep your old drafts?

Teri Ulm – Oh he did. And carried them around with him.

Kassi Rigney – Yeah. No.

Teri Ulm – Yeah. According to the Miami Herald Florida Man attorney is now represented by federal public defender. How’s does that work?

Kassi Rigney – Well, you know when you call them a successful business attorney and then he’s committing these very risky and high penalty crimes for whopping $1,800 dollars. I don’t think he was very successful. If he’s going to all this links over $1,800 dollars, I suspect he’s not sitting on a crop of cash.

Jacob Rigney – Yeah, cuz that’s terrible business decision. Right?

Teri Ulm – Right.

Jacob Rigney – That is like if you went to your business lawyer, and your business lawyer is like, well, yeah. Your profits are down a little bit. Have you tried robbing banks? It’s working for me. He’d be like, whoa.

Kassi Rigney – And this is something that I’d heard quite some time ago, that robbing banks, while it used to be the go to theft, even when you’re walking out with cash you’re not walking out with 10s of thousands of dollars. It’s oftentimes less than $10,000. And it’s a federal crime.

Jacob Rigney – Yeah. You don’t have time. I’ve prosecuted several bank robberies over the years back when I was a prosecutor. You have two choices. You can either go in and get a little bit of money and get out quick. Or you can go in and go for the big money in the back, but you’re going to be there for a long time. And by the time you get that, you’re barricaded inside. Then what are you going to do? Then you’re in a hostage situation, and that’s not what most people who aren’t up for money are trying to do. They’re trying to get a little bit of money and get out. So and it still doesn’t work very well. They usually put a dye pack in there, and the dye pack explodes all your money as ink on it, possibly also at the inside of your car. It’s dreadful.

Kassi Rigney – Another thing people don’t think about how heavy. If you get too much, you can’t walk away with it. Like the actual physical weight and girth of a substantial amount of cash.

Teri Ulm – Now, do you know if in federal court, you have to be found indigent to be given a public defender?

Jacob Rigney – I don’t know about that. I couldn’t tell you how he got a public defender, although that would jibe with Kassi’s theory that he is not a very good business lawyer and that he hasn’t been doing so well.

Teri Ulm – Right. I did a little research, and I was trying to find out where this attorney worked. And the place that said he worked, I went to their website, and he’s not listed on there anymore. I would take them off there too. But then I saw in some other article where a spokesperson from that law firm said that two years ago he disappeared. He has never showed up for work again.

Kassi Rigney – You might have a drug problem?

Teri Ulm – Probably. I mean, he’s not thinking very clearly if you think you’re going to rob a bank, again and again and again.

Jacob Rigney – I don’t know.

Teri Ulm – Yeah, I don’t either. Well, that’s all the time we have for the day.

Jacob Rigney – All right. Thanks, Teri. And thank you, dear listener for listening to Tales from the Brown Desk. Please remember while we may discuss legal… Oh. You hear that Kassi?

Kassi Rigney – It’s our song.

Jacob Rigney – They’re playing our song. Police sirens. Please remember while we may discuss legal issues and provide information regarding the law to our listeners, we do not intend to create an attorney client relationship with any listener. Our advice may not be applicable to some legal issues. To be honest, our legal advice may not be applicable with our own real opinions. Sometimes we’re just trying to be funny. Please consult with an attorney you’ve hired to review your legal situation before you attempt to apply the things we’ve said to your case. They are really playing a lot of our song out there. Lots of sirens. Tales from the Brown Desk is produced by Rigney Law and edited by Teri Ulm. You want to ask a listener question email Teri at teri@rigneylawindy.com, and entitle your email: “Podcast question”. We’ll read it on our next podcast. Give us new content for free or this thing is going under. We are cratering. Buzzsprout says this podcast will get 19 downloads. We’re under 20 now.

Teri Ulm – What’s going on?

Jacob Rigney – I don’t know the farthest away new listener is Indianapolis, Indiana. Our last podcast got five downloads.

Teri Ulm – Not even Fishers?

Jacob Rigney – Well, Fishers isn’t new anymore.

Teri Ulm – Okay, I see.

Jacob Rigney – I think we still have Fishers and Paris, France, because why not? And then three from Indianapolis. That’s all that happened in our last one. Now I’ve stopped promoting our podcast on my Facebook page because I deleted it from my phone, and it’s a pain in the butt to get it on there to promote it. That might be part of the problem. I don’t know.

Teri Ulm – It’s all your fault, Jake.

Jacob Rigney – It might just be that the funny commercials we do aren’t that funny and nobody likes it anymore? I don’t know.

Teri Ulm – I doubt it.

Jacob Rigney – I’m not worried about it. The attorneys at Rigney Law do not comment on their current pending cases. Nothing we’ve said in this podcast is a comment on a case we’re currently working on even if your name is Chad or if you think that free speech means you can tell the judge to dismiss your case because you’re not really an American because you created your own rolling country called Chadatonia where smoking weed while driving is not illegal, but mandatory. See you next week.