Welcoming Big Emotions with Cheerful Helpers Dr. Jaclyn Zeccola

Hello Brave Friends! Welcome to today's practical episode, #180. Our guest today is Dr. Jaclyn Zeccola, the clinical director of Cheerful Helpers, which is a well established therapeutic school and early intervention program dedicated to supporting children who are experiencing developmental challenges. 

As you will hear in the episode, what makes their programs successful and unique to them is their collaboration with parents, their use of narration to help investigate the reasons behind behaviors and their welcoming attitude toward BIG EMOTIONS. 

Dr. Jaclyn Zeccola is a psychologist and the clinical director of Cheerful Helpers Child and Family Study Center. Research for her doctoral dissertation focused on the parallel process of early childhood and early parenthood. She is a first 36 fellow and has spent most of her career with young people and their families. She is also the mother of a five year old, an adventure for which all of her book learning and study really didn't prepare her at all. 

I hope you learn something from this episode and enjoy my conversation with Dr. Zeccola. 

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Brave Together is the podcast for We are Brave Together, a not-for-profit organization based in the USA. The heart of We Are Brave Together is to strengthen, encourage, inspire and validate all moms of children with disabilities and other needs in their unique journeys. 

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Transcript

Ep 180_Practical_Cheerful Helpers Dr. Jaclyn Zeccola

Dr. Jacyln Zeccola: [00:00:00] So we don't come at it from a, you are so angry and you're angry because of this. It's more of a stance of, I wonder, I wonder if you didn't like that. I was asking you to write your name and you let me know by throwing your pencil.

Jessica Patay: Hi, brave friends. Welcome to today's practical episode. We have such a great guest. If you recall in episode 169 with. Susana P. Slavel, where she was talking about her book and also talking about the early intervention program that her daughter was a part of and that she was a part of. It was called Cheerful Helpers and it's in Los Angeles.

Jessica Patay: It's a well established therapeutic school and early intervention program dedicated to supporting children who are experiencing developmental challenges. And what makes their programs extremely successful is their collaboration with parents. Well, I wanted to learn so [00:01:00] much more, so we have our Guest today, who is Dr.

Jessica Patay: Jacqueline Sekola, and she's a psychologist and the clinical director of the Cheerful Helpers Child and Family Study Center. Research for her doctoral dissertation focused on the parallel process of early childhood and early parenthood. She is a first 36 fellow and has spent most of her career with young people and their families.

Jessica Patay: She is also the mother of a five year old, an adventure for which all of her book learning and study really didn't prepare her at all. I hope you learned something. I hope you're inspired. I hope that you enjoy my conversation with Dr. Zucola.

Jessica Patay: Hi Jacqueline, welcome to Brave Together podcast. I'm so glad that you agreed to join us today. Oh, thank you for inviting me. I'm so 

Dr. Jacyln Zeccola: happy to be here. 

Jessica Patay: So for anyone who heard the story episode with Susanna Peace Lavelle, [00:02:00] she was talking about her book and there was a spot in our conversation where we talked about Cheerful Helpers, which is a fantastic therapeutic school in Los Angeles.

Jessica Patay: And so we have the clinical director with us today. to hear more about it, Jacqueline. I was just so, so impressed. I know we already talked about this in our pre conversation, but I was just so impressed with what you offer and your philosophy and your methods that I had to talk to you and I had to do a podcast episode on this.

Dr. Jacyln Zeccola: Well, I have to say I am too. I, I, uh, walked into cheerful helpers several years ago and just was. Blown away by what they're doing, which way, way, way predates me. Um, and by the way in which they do it, I mean, it's, it's such a thoughtful and beautiful process and, and respectful of children and families. [00:03:00] Um, that I, you know, so I, I agree with you and I'm just really, really happy to be part of that team.

Jessica Patay: Tell us a little bit about your background before you got to Cheerful Helpers. 

Dr. Jacyln Zeccola: So I'm a psychologist. I'm a clinical psychologist. I got my PhD many years ago, but I, prior to that, I had worked in comedy for many years, but while working in comedy, I always. Also worked with children, so I've worked in early childhood since my 20s as either a nursery school teacher or, you know, parenting coach or working with, you know, in with families and then got my master's degree and then my doctorate and in my work as a.

Dr. Jacyln Zeccola: As a clinician have worked with families primarily. I also, you know, work with some adult individuals, but worked with families. And so I knew that I wanted to work with children and families. And I knew that when I wanted to work with children, I wanted to work with the whole family. 

Jessica Patay: So for our [00:04:00] listeners, please describe the approach to Behavior and big feelings and meltdowns.

Jessica Patay: And also remind me the population of students are what ages and what diagnoses usually 

Dr. Jacyln Zeccola: so we have a we sort of think developmentally rather than age. But we, we, we have a preschool through 1st grade program within our school. And then we also offer support to families. That sort of in the pre preschool early, very early intervention through a parent and me social skills group.

Dr. Jacyln Zeccola: And we also offer social skills groups for kids outside of the age group of preschool through 1st grade. So we, we, but our school is preschool through 1st grade. Typically our kids are anywhere from 4 to. 9 or 10 and we have, I like to say, you know, anywhere on the neurodivergent spectrum, we have a lot of, a lot of kids with an autism diagnosis and then, you know, sort of comorbid with [00:05:00] that or similar to that, or a lot of sensory processing disorders or delays, speech delays.

Dr. Jacyln Zeccola: So that's. I guess our population, we have, you know, a lot of, a lot of kids for whom traditional preschool is, is challenging and it's hard for them to be successful in a traditional classroom. 

Jessica Patay: How do you know when a child and not just the child, but also the family, the parents, because. It's very heavily parent involved in the very beginning.

Jessica Patay: And I can imagine even when you get to the stage where you're not in the classroom every day with your child, because they've grown to the point where they can be there without you, where both parent and child have learned so much and grown so much. But how do you know a child and a parent are the right fit for your program?

Dr. Jacyln Zeccola: Well, part of that is that I think by the time parents find us. Often it's sort of self selected in a way, um, it is, as you said, very parent involved. We have parents in the [00:06:00] classroom for six to eight weeks, whether their child is well transitioned or not. That is a part of the requirement is that they're in the classroom with their child.

Dr. Jacyln Zeccola: There's a lot of reasons for it. Part of it is to really absorb the program and absorb the language and, and endorse the And so that they're sort of in all of the places that their Children are going to be. So their Children have an internal model of them having been there as well. And so they're in the classroom for 6 to 8 weeks after that.

Dr. Jacyln Zeccola: Every family has a family therapist and they meet with their family therapist. Usually every other week, but sometimes families meet every week. Um, and then we also have a parent group that parents are asked to join every week. And so it's a lot of commitment. And so for a family to take on that commitment and to be able to sort of shift their world, because we know we're asking them to really shift things in their world to be able to do that.

Dr. Jacyln Zeccola: That's a lot. That's a big ask [00:07:00] of families. So that is also self selected, right, is, is, can somebody meet that? And not everybody who, not everybody's going to be able to, and then we hope to be able to support them in other ways. For children, we look for some ability to communicate. Not all of our kids are able to communicate verbally, but are they communicating in other ways?

Dr. Jacyln Zeccola: And are they showing some even just a hint of joint connection? Are they are they acknowledging even if I'm not ready to play with you yet? I'm acknowledging that you're in my space. From there, we can expand. 

Jessica Patay: And I'm sure it's hard to do, but when, when do you know that a child is not the right fit? I'm guessing there are some kids that might not fit, it might not work.

Jessica Patay: But I'm also guessing that you have such a different way of looking at things where some kids who aren't going to fit even in other special education Programs are especially designed program for kids with unique needs or who are neurodiverse or who are on the [00:08:00] spectrum might not be able to handle or address.

Jessica Patay: And maybe you could because you see things differently, 

Dr. Jacyln Zeccola: you know, it's hard to, to not be able to be the right fit for everyone. And, and just practically we're, we're not, there are some. Ambulatory needs that we're not able to, we're not gonna be able to meet and that someone else is going to do better.

Dr. Jacyln Zeccola: Okay. Or there are some very specific medical needs that we're not gonna be able to meet. Outside of that, if someone's not ready for the classroom, we do try to find, like I said, some way that we can support the family. So we can offer play therapy, we can offer our big program. Which is twice a week and it's sort of a mimics the classroom environment, but it's an hour and a half and mom and dad are right there the whole time.

Dr. Jacyln Zeccola: So we try to offer ways to support the family, either to then get what they need and, and be able to go somewhere else, or to maybe then there'll be ready for the classroom. So we do try 

Jessica Patay: to 

Dr. Jacyln Zeccola: find ways to meet families where they are. 

Jessica Patay: Okay. And [00:09:00] so I can't wait to talk about this. Talk about how you all handle behaviors.

Jessica Patay: Big feelings and meltdowns and outbursts and aggression or what have just all of it, all the stuff that's so hard for us as parents and hard in the educational setting. If the team doesn't really know how to work with your child, respond to your child, what not to say, what not to do, you all seem like you really, really have such a wonderful way.

Jessica Patay: Of understanding kids and what they need and, and how to, to handle the situation. So tell everybody what you all do, kind of what's the philosophy behind it. And then let's talk about like a real life example. 

Dr. Jacyln Zeccola: Okay. Awesome. Well, so counterintuitively, we welcome big behaviors. We want, we want to see those big outbursts.

Dr. Jacyln Zeccola: We want to see dysregulation. At our very, very core believe that behavior is communication. And when a child is [00:10:00] communicating, sometimes that's going to be loud and sometimes it's going to be big. And for some kids who can be very internal, those big behaviors are a real sign that they're sort of coming out, that they're, they're, they're letting us see them.

Dr. Jacyln Zeccola: They're letting us see what's hard and we can't know what's hard unless they're communicated. And so we really, we welcome big behaviors and We address them in that way. Oh, my goodness. Something is getting so hard for you. Let's think about this. And then we'll, we use a lot of, you know, one of the core tools of our program is narration.

Dr. Jacyln Zeccola: So we're, we're very language rich. We use a lot of narration. We use a lot of co narration. There are many, many adults in the classroom and they're talking to each other or they're talking to the child or they're talking to the child and the other adults. And through that, you know, it's a very core analytic, Philosophy of bringing the inside out, right?

Dr. Jacyln Zeccola: Bringing what is what is unconscious to the conscious. [00:11:00] 

Jessica Patay: And 

Dr. Jacyln Zeccola: so we are talking about, Oh my goodness, something happened. And then the pencil went flying and I don't, I don't know what happened. Maybe, maybe it got, you didn't like that. I was asking you to write your name or maybe you didn't like, you know, that someone else is getting to go out to, I don't know, let's think about this together.

Dr. Jacyln Zeccola: Right. And we're really talking about it, but very importantly, from a stance of curiosity, because nobody wants to be known by someone else. They want to be helped to know themselves. So we don't come at it from a, you know, a, you are so angry and you're angry because of this. It's more of a stance of, I wonder, I wonder if you didn't like that I was asking you to write your name and you let me know by throwing your pencil.

Jessica Patay: I see. So instead of sort of naming the emotion that You, you could say that because it looks like they're angry they threw a pencil. Yeah. You're getting curious and narrating what is going on and saying, I wonder. Yeah. Okay. 

Dr. Jacyln Zeccola: I wonder. And I wonder if that made you [00:12:00] angry. And, and then we might say, if you're angry, you can stomp your feet and you can say, I'm so angry.

Dr. Jacyln Zeccola: And then we'll show them, you know, what does that look like? Oh, I'm so angry. I want to hit the desk, you know, and in that process, also giving them alternate ways to express their anger. So there's never a don't throw your pencil, because if you start with don't throw your pencil, then you're missing all of that opportunity to talk about what happened to create the throwing of the pencil.

Jessica Patay: Um, it makes sense to me. I think I know as a parent, we often get so uncomfortable with big emotions and big feelings in acting out that we want to squash it. We want to like shut it down, shut it down, deescalate as fast as possible. But what is something that you would want to. teach parents who are used to that because they get activated by their child's behavior, which I totally understand.

Jessica Patay: There is no judgment. I totally get that. Um, what would you say to start to teach [00:13:00] a parent rather than that knee jerk reaction to want to like deescalate, shut it down to help them to pause and respond differently? 

Dr. Jacyln Zeccola: Well, I think part of that is also responding to parents differently. And I think that's why the fact that this is a family agency is so important, right?

Dr. Jacyln Zeccola: The parents are so vulnerable and so, you know, they, they work so hard. They're, they're working so hard for their kids all of the time. And they're doing the best they can with the tools that they have. And they're told by a million different experts to do a million different things. And so it starts from really understanding the parents.

Dr. Jacyln Zeccola: I always tell parents like the most important thing about parenting is being willing to apologize, willing to do repair. There's going to be ruptures all the time. You're going to get mad. Can you hold yourself with grace and can you hold yourself with that acceptance and sit kindly with Yourself knowing how hard this is and I think that's first [00:14:00] and foremost important is to be able to see that it is so hard to be a parent at all.

Dr. Jacyln Zeccola: And then to be a parent with a kid who has any kind of different needs, it's really, really challenging. And then including the parents. And I think that's part of what the classroom being in the classroom for six to eight weeks does right is include the parents in wondering. Parents, especially parents with kids with different needs, are used to sort of following their kids around and reading their minds or doing for them, and then they see in the classroom, the teachers sort of give them a little bit of space, and they can see that their kid can do things that they didn't know they could do, or that their kid, that their child is communicating and doing things that they can't do.

Dr. Jacyln Zeccola: Through these behaviors, and if you give it space, you can wonder about it, and you can help them to understand it. And so sort of including parents in that curiosity. And when, when parents, you know, tell me about something that's hard at home, I try to wonder about it with them to model. Like, I wonder what, what, what do you think was going on before?

Dr. Jacyln Zeccola: You know, the big tantrum on the way to [00:15:00] grandma's house, like what was going on, you know, to really hold that space for parents as well. 

Jessica Patay: What is a transformation that you've seen in a child from beginning to the end of their time at Cheerful Helpers? And the same with a parent. What's an example of maybe a transformation that you've seen?

Dr. Jacyln Zeccola: I think I'm going to do an amalgam here just just to sort of protect confidentiality, but of course, you know, any child that comes in and, you know, so often when parents come to us, they have had experiences where they've been asked to leave multiple schools and their kids are holding that shame and that that worry.

Dr. Jacyln Zeccola: And the feeling like, almost like I want to find the thing that I'm going to do that's going to get me kicked out of cheerful helpers. And so one of the things that we say is nobody gets in trouble at cheerful helpers, nobody's getting kicked out of cheerful helpers, right? Like, and make space for, we know that you're going to, you're [00:16:00] going to try all the things because it's hard for you to trust.

Dr. Jacyln Zeccola: So to see a child go from that and parents go from that, where, from where they're dropping off their kid and they're holding, they're clutching their phone for the whole four hours waiting for that phone call to come pick their kid up to parents who are ready to go back into the workforce. Or who are able to imagine traveling and going away for a weekend or going away for a week and know that their child is going to be okay.

Dr. Jacyln Zeccola: And to children who come in from throwing chairs to being able to sit in a chair and the teacher gives them a job to do and they say, I don't, I don't like that. And then they still do it. I'm mad that I have to do, I have to do this assignment and then they do it. And Rebecca is one of our teachers and she's been leading the kids in these protest marches all year.

Dr. Jacyln Zeccola: And to watch the kids march around with signs that say, I don't like schoolwork or I don't like, but like they're doing it, they're having the feeling and they're doing the [00:17:00] thing that is so hard. And it's, it's beautiful. And to see parents be able to see that and then also imagine their life resuming, you know, and they're, you know, in a way that feels natural, you know, and feels productive.

Dr. Jacyln Zeccola: I guess. I don't know what the, what the word is, but 

Jessica Patay: yeah, sure. Smooth. So do you think that because there's so much. Allowing and validation of the feelings and acknowledgement that that's why you're seeing you're you're still seeing the feelings or you still might see the protest, but then they're willing to do the, you know, undesirable task demand request because there's so much I see you and I validate you and yeah, it's not fun to do the dishes or whatever it is, right?

Jessica Patay: It's not fun to do the dishes. Do math some days or whatever it is, you know, do you think that's why or one contributing factor? 

Dr. Jacyln Zeccola: I think absolutely. I think, um, there's a, there's a story that I tell the interns [00:18:00] a lot. There was this psychiatrist on a locked ward and one of the patients on the ward was standing with his arms up like a spider against the wall.

Dr. Jacyln Zeccola: And the nurses and the technicians and everybody was worried because he had been there for like eight hours and he hadn't eaten and he wouldn't move and nobody could get him to move. So the psychiatrist walked over to him and stood with his hands up against the wall like a spider and stood there for 10 minutes.

Dr. Jacyln Zeccola: And then he turned to the patient and he said, I'm kind of hungry. Do you want to, I don't know, do you want to go to the cafeteria and get a sandwich? And the patient went with him and all the psychiatrist did was he joined him and that being joined rather than someone trying to move him was so validating and so reflective and so mirroring and our kids are the same way.

Dr. Jacyln Zeccola: Our kids come in and their worlds are so internal and they don't feel as they don't. They don't feel like someone other than mom or dad can really understand what they need and they're so scared. And so when teachers are able to say, yeah. I don't like math either. You know, [00:19:00] it's like, why are we doing this counting stuff?

Dr. Jacyln Zeccola: Like, oh, it's so hard to do this work. And I know you can do hard things and maybe you want to go through a beanbag first and then come back and do the work. It's up to you. You have to do the work and you might miss play time, right? If you're, if you're still doing the work, when everybody goes out to play, but, but you can take a break now, you know, it's just allowing them that space.

Dr. Jacyln Zeccola: That feeling of being seen and having it be acknowledged that, yeah, it's okay to not want to do this. And sometimes we have to do what we don't 

Jessica Patay: want to do. I mean, I feel like, don't we all as humans want someone to join in with us when we're suffering, uncomfortable, angry, upset, whatever emotion it is. We all want someone to join in with us.

Jessica Patay: So what's a good, I'm joining in with you, you know, statement that a parent can make when they see big feelings or big actions. 

Dr. Jacyln Zeccola: I'll share one from my own life because I have parents as well and I, um, I have [00:20:00] had pink eye this week and I had the worst case of pink eye that I've ever, like I both of my, anyway, it was awful and I always, You know, our bedtime routine involves me snuggling up in my kid's bed with him, lying down with him and cuddling up and being very close and for a few days I couldn't and that was really hard and so I, you know, it, it made bedtime feel really long and it made, it made things very hard, but I just sort of said, you know, I get it.

Dr. Jacyln Zeccola: Like, I hate it too. I want to lay down and cuddle with you and do bedtime like we always do and we can't right now and that is so hard. I think sometimes it's hard as a parent to sort of make room and space and dialogue about your own feelings. Yes. And share with your child that something is hard for you also.

Jessica Patay: Yes. 

Dr. Jacyln Zeccola: And that sometimes hearing that helps kids to, you know, it doesn't change the situation. I didn't, it didn't automatically mean that I could lay down on his pillow, but it, but at least [00:21:00] he, he didn't feel like I was like mad at him for not being able, not being able to just like be flexible. 

Jessica Patay: Right. 

Dr. Jacyln Zeccola: It's hard to be flexible.

Jessica Patay: True. Oh, that's, that's a really, really good example. Jaclyn, before we go, what, what stands out to you, like one thing that a kid has taught you, because I always say our children are our greatest teachers. 

Dr. Jacyln Zeccola: Yeah. Oh my gosh, there's so many, it's hard to choose. 

Jessica Patay: Sure, I can imagine. 

Dr. Jacyln Zeccola: I have this amazing, amazing kid in mind, but I'm, again, going to try to do an amalgam, but I think what a kid has taught me is that everyone has their own time frame for how they process things and that a trauma is not Defined by someone other than the person feeling it.

Dr. Jacyln Zeccola: And so that, that when someone has a trauma to work through, it's going to take them time and they're going to do it. And as long as you're able to sit with them and be next to them in that Winnie the Pooh way, right? Like just sit next to Eeyore and don't try to make Eeyore [00:22:00] happy, but try to make Eeyore felt met.

Dr. Jacyln Zeccola: If you're able to sit with someone and not rush them through their process. They'll get there, but that everybody has to process their trauma in the way in the time frame that they're going to process it. 

Jessica Patay: That is beautiful. Thank you. Uh, there's so much more I could ask you. There is so much. We just scratched the surface, Jacqueline.

Jessica Patay: Oh my gosh. Well, where can everyone find out about cheerful helpers if they're interested? 

Dr. Jacyln Zeccola: So our website is cheerful helpers dot org, and that's probably the best place to start. Okay, and then from there, you can hit any hyperlink and you can get to me or, you know, anyone on the staff. So, 

Jessica Patay: okay, great. 

Dr. Jacyln Zeccola: Yeah, we, I welcome any questions or.

Dr. Jacyln Zeccola: I'm happy to come back. 

Jessica Patay: Yes, thank you. I, there are other topics that we could tackle with you. So let's talk about that after. Okay. All right. Thanks. Thank you so much, 

Dr. Jacyln Zeccola: Jessica.[00:23:00] 

Jessica Patay: Thanks so much for listening today. Do us a favor and leave us a review and a rating so that this podcast can get into the ears of And the hearts of more and more moms. Did you know that brave together podcast is an extension of our nonprofit organization called we are brave together. We are brave together serves an international community of caregiving moms by offering support groups that are virtual and in person educational resources and low cost weekend retreats to join us today, go to We are bravetogether.

Jessica Patay: org. Our support and sisterhood await you. Bravetogether podcast is for entertainment and education purposes only, and it's not a substitute and should not be relied on for medical or mental health advice. The use of any content on our podcast, LinkedIn, our show notes or on our website is to be done at your own personal risk.

Jessica Patay: Please seek out a professional to assess [00:24:00] your own medical or mental health concerns because we are all beautifully. Complex, and the content of this podcast is for a broad audience.