73: Part 1 - All I Know is Corrections - Interview with Bronner "Bama" Allen

In this episode, I talk with Bronner "Bama" Allen about his interesting career that started at The North Carolina Department of Corrections which led to a 21-year career with Federal Bureau of Prisons where he retired.  But Bama wasn't done yet, he returned to where he had started at The North Carolina Department of Corrections, and where he still works today.  His story shares the human side of corrections,  as he discusses the experiences that shape the men and women who don the uniform, and the shared journey that both scars and strengthens them.

This episode is Part 1 of 2, be sure listen to Episode 74 - Part 2 - When Stress Tries to Kill You - Interview with Bronner "Bama" Allen

We can all help prevent suicide. The 988 Lifeline provides 24/7, free and confidential support for people in distress, prevention and crisis resources for you or your loved ones, and best practices for professionals in the United States.  https://988lifeline.org/

PepperBall
From crowd control to cell extractions, the PepperBall system is the safe, non-lethal option.

OMNI
OMNI is cutting-edge software designed to track inmates and assets within your prison or jail.

Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:35

In more than 28 years of corrections I have used or supervised pepper ball hundreds of times. Now as a master instructor for pepper ball, I teach others about the versatility and effectiveness of this pepper ball system. From cell extractions to disturbances on the wreck yard, pepper ball is the first option in my correctional toolbox. One of the most dangerous times for officers is during cell extractions. Pepper ball allows officers to respond with the lowest level of force and still be effective and ready if the situation escalates. The responding officer controls where the projectiles are aimed, how many projectiles are launched and how rapidly they are deployed. This allows the response to be tailored to the moment. To learn more about pepper ball, go to wwwpepperballcom or click the link below in the show's information guide. Pepper ball is the safer option. First. Hello and welcome back to the Prison Officer Podcast. My guest today is Bronner Allen.

Speaker 1: 1:35

He started his corrections career at New Haven New Hanover Correctional Center in Wilmington, north Carolina. He spent five years there as a sergeant and was a member of the Prison Emergency Response Team. After that he decided to try his hand at the federal side. He got hired on with the BOP at FCC. Butternut activated the Federal Medical Center there. He was also part of the activation team for a federal correctional institution, number two at Butternut. He was on the disturbance control team for 10 years, got promoted to lieutenant, transferred to USP Pollock in Louisiana, spent 10 years there and retired, took a six month break, I guess, got bored and he went back to where it all began, back to New Hanover Correctional Center in North Carolina and we're going to talk to him about that, the transitions he made. You know some of the things he learned and what he's doing today. So welcome to the Prisoner Officer Podcast Bronner.

Speaker 2: 2:31

Thank you.

Speaker 1: 2:32

Is that what people call?

Speaker 2: 2:33

you, bronner, they actually call me Bama.

Speaker 1: 2:36

Bama, bama Okay.

Speaker 2: 2:39

Is that what you?

Speaker 1: 2:39

prefer I do. Okay, I'll call you Bama, so I always like to start at the beginning. Tell me where you grew up and you know how that was and how your life when you were younger was.

Speaker 2: 2:53

Well, I grew up in Jacksonville, north Carolina. My dad was a Marine and we spent most of our time right here in North Carolina, never really got out of North Carolina, and I graduated from campus in high school. We went to Colorado for a couple of years, but you know, I really don't remember all that. I was like eight, nine years old, came back to North Carolina and just grew up around the Marine Corps, decided to play baseball and that didn't take off anywhere. My dad was a correctional officer, so he kept on talking about going to prison. I'm like, oh nah, you keep all that. I want nothing to do with that. I want to go to the police and get some SWAT teams and you know, deputy sheriffs, police officers that was the deal. I wanted to do that. Sure, us Marshall. And I said, well, I'm going to take baseball first. And baseball just wasn't working out.

Speaker 1: 3:47

Yeah, I mean.

Speaker 2: 3:50

I try for hundreds of teams and I probably try not for every major league baseball team there is. Oh, it just didn't, it felt good. So there was a lot of handshakes at the end going, hey, man, we're going to keep an eye on you. I'm like, okay, when, when, you know, I mean there were some days where I thought, you know, I'm never going to get a call from you guys. And there's days like, oh my God, I played great, this is awesome. Yeah, but I had a wife, two kids, you know, and I just needed to find a real job and dancing, come on board. I'm like, yeah, so where'd he work at?

Speaker 2: 4:28

He worked at New Handwood. He worked at the New Handwood Correctional Center. He retired from the Marine Corps and went and did that. And I went to BLET, which is the basic law enforcement training, and I wanted to be a police officer and I said you can still keep that prison deal because I'm not going to do it Right. And it was just like the police department wanted reserve officers all the time, you know, and they weren't paying nothing. So my wife's like going, you got to figure out something. We got to get to a job. So I went to my dad's house which was right across the street. I said, all right, I'll do it. You know what do I got to do?

Speaker 1: 5:10

And then it's kind of Did you think you were just going to do it for a little bit until you could find something else? Is that how?

Speaker 2: 5:15

you started. That was the plan. I'm just going to go there, work a year. You know, maybe get hired on with you know the highway patrol or get hired on with you know the police department. But after that first year, you know, it was like going and I like what I do. Yeah, this is a pretty cool job.

Speaker 1: 5:36

That's interesting. So in North Carolina are correctional officers considered law enforcement there, or are they not?

Speaker 2: 5:44

No, okay it's. You know it's funny because when I first started I had my BLET, I had my certification and I really wanted to keep that certification, maybe work as a reserve officer, and I didn't know at the time and Brunswick County said, hey, we'll hire you. You know, I knew the sheriff real good, and so I went over there and fed all the stuff and next thing, you know, I'm in the warden's office saying, hey, so you decide, you want to carry a gun off duty. I'm like going well, I was going to work for you, so you can't hold two positions at the same time. I guess, kind of like the federal bureau, you know the bureau does Yep. So I was carrying a gun, I had to make a decision either the shared permit or the prison. And I said, well, I guess I'm going back to prison. So I lost all my certifications and everything like that.

Speaker 2: 6:37

And now when you know it's weird, it's how it works, it's all. They give you a concealed carry, they give you a car that says, hey, you know, you're a law enforcement officer, but we're still not. So, kind of like you know, maybe back in the days when we started, you know, you know the bureau came out with those ID cards that said law enforcement officer across the top. Remember those days? I came back, they came back. Oh, we need all those back. But yeah, north Carolina is not considered. You know law enforcement. I like New Jersey or New York. I hear them. They're actually certified law enforcement Right.

Speaker 1: 7:20

So North Carolina is not. You grew up with a correctional officer, so I know that you heard stories and you had some idea of what you were going to walk into. But tell me about the first day when you walked in there. Were you prepared for what you saw? I was.

Speaker 2: 7:37

You know, I used to see back home with torn shirts, you know, bludgeoned blood on his shirts, or the shirt in a bag, and but he was big, he was huge. I mean, he was kind of like, you know, he could have been a professional wrestler. He was a solid and it makes him bother him. That was actually inmate blood, not his, and so I was like all right. Well, he talked to me. You know, I actually talked to some of the lieutenants that he worked with and they kind of guided me a little bit and I said, ok, I'm ready.

Speaker 2: 8:13

So the first day I remember walking in there. There's all paperwork, I had to wear a button down shirt and tie, and all the inmates would sit back and go oh hey, you must be probation parole, you know I had to wear a tie and they come up, ask questions, and because I had got my uniforms yet, and so I remember that first day just walking around with another officer and him show me what to do, tell me what to do, explain the things, and it was like, man, this is great, I could do this. I mean, inmates are just like regular people on the street. They come up and say hi to you and say where are you from, and then it's kind of like going OK, don't get too personal. But so it actually was a couple of weeks, you know, working with other officers that got me to my first night when they said, hey, you're going to night watch and you know well, morning watch.

Speaker 2: 9:09

And I remember that first night I was scared to death. It went straight from being really comfortable during the daytime because I was with somebody, to going in there and then locking the doors on me and being by myself. And you know there are 64 inmates in there and I was. I was scared. I will not lie to you. I was scared and I'm like, when this ain't for me, I'm going to be able to do this.

Speaker 1: 9:36

You know people that work there understand, but a lot of people that have never worked in prison. You don't have the key to let yourself out. You're in that housing unit. Somebody else has to let you out, in and out of it. So it's a whole different feeling when that door locks and it's just you and the inmates overnight.

Speaker 2: 9:53

Well, you know, like new Hanover, it's a minimum security. So the yard officer will come on, they'll lock the door, you know. But you can get out if you wanted to. You're going to set up a whole lot of alarms but you get out. Oh OK, the whole thing was like, you know.

Speaker 2: 10:10

Later on, you know, as we go on, when you hear those Sally Pork shut in that door in control and say, hey, all secure, those are the doors you can't get out of. You know, it's like, oh my God, now I'm really stuck. But I remember sitting in the chair, I'm just taking myself going, man, I made a big mistake, this ain't for me. And so about halfway through that night I just started getting up, walking around. By then all the inmates are kind of going to sleep and a couple of inmates watching TV and I'm like going, okay, this is a do or die right here. You gotta make a decision. Is this for you? Are you gonna go home in the morning until dad Can't do it, it's over with, or are you just gonna try to link it out?

Speaker 2: 10:59

I was more scared of my dad at that time, at that point halfway through the night, telling him, then saying, hey, let's try this one more night. Then, as the time went on, a couple of nights later I was like oh man, this is easy. I'm like this is like a babysitter. People come up and ask me questions and I tell them yeah, you can't take a shower. No, you can't take a shower. Yeah, you know, here's some soap, here's some paperwork, you know, request forms. I'm like that's all I gotta do. This is a piece of cake?

Speaker 1: 11:31

Is all of New Hanover a minimum, or is there different prisons in that center?

Speaker 2: 11:36

No, it's all on minimum security. So it's the largest work release camp in the state of North Carolina.

Speaker 1: 11:41

Yep, I worked for one of those for a while in Missouri. Yeah, so you've got inmates going out every day to different areas and working. Yeah, tell us a little bit about that.

Speaker 2: 11:53

When I first started it was more like they go out, for you know well, you had your road crews, your community work programs, and those are still inmates. You had officers with them. Then you had officers that I mean inmates that would go out for like electricians. They worked at restaurants, which that blew my mind. Right there I was like, oh okay, honey, we're not eating here, we're not eating here, and it was kind of like an eye opener. But these guys were actually.

Speaker 2: 12:25

They worked blue jeans, they wore regular street clothes, so you couldn't even tell they were inmates. We had guys going to Cape Fear Community College. They were working in the United States Battleship. But then I come back 30 years later, you know almost, or 25 years later, and they're more longer to wear jeans outside. They got to wear their regular. They may close, but when they get to work they wear these like their sweatshirts.

Speaker 2: 12:55

They say like coastal precast or net logistics is a couple of the places that they work at and the thing is, as soon as they get back to the camp they have to take that stuff off. They have to put their regular greens back on. But this they got, I think maybe 180 work lease inmates out of the 400 that we have there. So they go out every morning. There's a couple other work programs that they go out, but they're not really considered work release. So you know the one time is busy. I mean six o'clock comes, we're at the gate patting inmates down. They're concerned about bringing anything out and getting them under jobs and they're gone until four o'clock that afternoon.

Speaker 1: 13:37

Right, so you get your first promotion there. Right, you make Sergeant.

Speaker 2: 13:43

Yeah, I was a, they were. I think it was about year three I took the Sergeant exam and I kept on going all over to state of North Carolina, wanted to be a Sergeant, and I started doing a lot of acting Sergeant Actually didn't have those stripes yet, but doing a lot of acting Sergeant and I had a big mentor, that May McAllister, and she was just one of the greatest Sergeant's I ever worked for Matt in fact she's probably one of the greatest supervisors I worked for and she was just so very knowledgeable about everything. And there was times where she came in she says, hey, I'm gonna sit back and relax and I, you know, run the show. And I'm like, all right, I got it. And so it's funny because one another correctional officer came in and she's like going, hey, she says I got permission from your wife, we're gonna go to a hotel in Raleigh instead of the night together. And I'm thinking myself going what? There's no way, you got permission from my wife. And she says, no, there's a job there in Butter, north Carolina. She says, so we're gonna stay in Raleigh and we're gonna go to this job there for the federal bureau of prisons.

Speaker 2: 14:52

I'm like going, you have to have a degree to get into the bureau of prisons. There's a lot of stuff that you gotta have which I didn't know. She says no, no, no. She says you don't. She says experience is all you need Educational help. But hey, experience is all you need. So I call my wife immediately. I'm like, go, hey, you're gonna let me go on a, you know say, to the hotel with Jamie. She says, yeah, she wants you to go to this job there with her. And I'm like, okay, so we get to the hotel and you know there's separate rooms. She paid for everything and so I went in there for the interview and I mean for the job there. And back then remember it's like after you did the application, it was like 120 pounds. You remember doing that. It was not online, you had to do everything where you had to hand write everything.

Speaker 1: 15:42

And I think that application.

Speaker 2: 15:44

I think that application weighed 120 pounds and it was about two months later. You know, I get the interview Right, not even two months. I think it was maybe a month. And I go up there and I ace this thing. Kathy Davis, she was the Human Resource Manager at the time at Butler and she called me out of the office and she says that's probably the one of the best interviews that I've ever ever sat on. She's like this she says I wouldn't say quit your job, but I would start making preparations. And I said okay. So I got back home and I said, hey, look, I got the job, but I don't have the job. And my wife said what does that mean? I said they said I did great that the.

Speaker 2: 16:33

You know they got to do some background checks, which I'm thinking is great, everything's gonna be good. So it takes about six months because my dad had we got the same last name. I mean same same last name. Of course they had the same last name. I'm a junior. So when they did my credit check with the bureau, they bought my dad's, some of my dad's stuff up and we're trying to figure out. Hey, I've never had an account with these people and so it took a couple of months for them to figure it out.

Speaker 2: 17:08

And so I get a call from my warden. He said, hey, I need you to come in. He's all excited. I'm like going, I got promoted to sergeant. I'm not even thinking about the bureau now. So I walk in and I walk in his office. He's got these sergeant stripes laid on the desk and I'm excited. Now I'm like, oh man, I'm getting promoted. He says, man, I was gonna give you these. He says I got a phone call from the bureau prisons and at first I was like going, oh, they call you. He says they want to know a start date for you. I was like I'm glad they called you, because I didn't even call me. And he's like this he says, well, I'm gonna let you go in and do that, and so I give him these. He's all giving them to somebody else. So I actually didn't wear the stripes, but I did act as a sergeant and I started with the bureau about like a month later. Wow.

Speaker 1: 18:02

So it was. That's interesting, it was your first duty station. Your first duty station is Butler.

Speaker 2: 18:09

It is Butler and it was empty. There was nobody there. I was one of the when 15 officers to start there, so I was. I was actually one of the the officers to start when we, when we opened up um which?

Speaker 1: 18:27

was pretty cool and you went in knowing it was going to be a medical center.

Speaker 2: 18:32

Yes.

Speaker 1: 18:34

Any worries about that? Did you know anything about medical centers, cause I spent 14 years at Springfield, so I know a lot about Butler?

Speaker 2: 18:42

Yeah, I had um, we did some, uh, med trips there, the the Springfield, which was interesting, you know, your Sallyport, you know all that good stuff going down and looked like a tunnel, Um, but uh, yeah, Um, I didn't know anything about mission. Yeah, it's a different mission, didn't it?

Speaker 1: 19:01

Yeah, yeah. You can think you know a lot about corrections and walk into a medical center and you got to relearn a lot of stuff.

Speaker 2: 19:09

Oh, and that you say that and that's exactly what I thought. I thought. You know, hey, I was a active sergeant, you know. You know, I know I know my job of doing this for five years and I had a lot of computations with, um, some other officers because of that. You know they're like whatever you learned at the state you need to forget, you know, um, and they were like going. I said, well, whatever, dude, you know, I just kept ignoring, ignoring it.

Speaker 2: 19:35

And then, uh, art Bealer, he was our, uh, our warden and probably the greatest man I've ever met in my life. You know, I admire Mr Bealer, you know, more than probably any any warden I've ever had, except one which I'll tell you here a little bit. Okay, um, but uh, Mr Bealer, he, he said he'd call you by your first name. He would never call you Allen or what, but he knew like 1300 staff members names by the first Right, right, and he would always say Bronner. You know, come sit with me a little bit. He said I've been hearing some issues. I'm like, oh man, I'm going, I'm getting fired. He's like this he says this is the mission of the medical center and he would go over the mission. He, he'd go over his expectations. You know those 15 expectations that every warden has. And uh, he says, um, carry these with you your whole career. He says you'll never, you'll never go bad, and I'm like okay.

Speaker 2: 20:35

You know, and uh, but he, he taught me a lot. Anytime I had a problem, his door was opened up and you'd go in and you could talk to him. You know man to man, you know not officer to ward Right, and uh. So I learned a lot at the medical center, you know, you had your cadre inmates, which those are the ones that cleaned up the hospital Um. Then you had your mental health inmates, which that's the first time I ever started seeing real fights and everything like that. Um, no stabbings yet, that coming later.

Speaker 2: 21:05

But uh, there was a lot of um issues that uh really kind of set your your mind at at, uh, at a deep space that people really don't understand. Like you said, working at a medical center, um, you work your pens, your mediums, but at a medical center, when you got inmates that are dying all the time, that really, really takes an effect on you and a lot of people didn't want to work those, those floors where those inmates are dying. Yeah, those officers that did, but I think they had medical experience too Some of them, so they they've been around that Um. But I remember, uh, uh, an incident that happened, uh, where an inmate uh, my first inmate I ever had died on me and it was. It was horrific. It looked like a scene out of the exorcist. Yeah and uh, that really really put a big old toll on me my whole career. Um, I, I see different things and I automatically think about this inmate that that that passed away.

Speaker 2: 22:00

Um, he had a GI bleed, so it was nothing, that was, um, I think it was a, it was a. It was a, it was a, it was on us. It was just something that he got and uh, he had. I think he had started like asthma or something that day and it just went on and on and then it ended up becoming a GI bleed and it, it was a horrific. You know, experience for a lot of people. Um, that, because I've never been around that, I've never seen, I've never seen anything like that. Yeah and uh, they actually gave me a couple of days off and say relax. Oh, wow, you know, take it easy. Yeah, um, but it was, it was terrible.

Speaker 1: 22:39

Yeah, dealing with death is a whole different thing, of course. I worked at Springfield and one of the wards you know was where a lot of inmates went to um their final days and people don't understand. You know, I had one quarter three months where I put 22 inmates in a bag, in a body bag. Like most people will never see that much death unless they're involved in something traumatic in their lifetime, you know. But here I am putting these guys in body bags, toe tagging them and taking pictures and making sure that they get down to R and D the correct way and and you're dealing with dead bodies in a way that a lot of people never will. And, uh, it does, it does. It takes a little bit of toll on you, you know you, you look at life differently and um, I don't know it's, it stays with you. I've got some of those that were that stayed with me also.

Speaker 2: 23:31

Yeah, Like you said, you know, um, the body bags. I remember, uh, it wasn't him, it was another inmate. You know when he first got there, you know they had the. You know it's kind of like they put him in stages where you get on the fifth floor and it's like, okay, you're in five A or five B, you're good, you're just up there recovering. If you get to five A, you know you're on your death bed Right Five B it was it in AR. He knew it. If he was going to five B, you know I'm, I'm, I'm on my final days and you know you walk the floor as an officer and you would see DNR, dnr, dnr, dnr on all these doors. And you know I'm like what is a DNR? And they're like going, it means that we're not going to resuscitate him, we're not going to go in there and give him CPR, we're just going to let him go. I'm like, oh, is that humane? They're like, yeah, it is. And then I remember the first day, you know.

Speaker 1: 24:28

They make him comfortable with with drugs and stuff usually, oh, they do If you're in pain there at the end. So for people listening, it's not like you just let them suffer. No, they're given, you know, hospice type treatment all the way to the end.

Speaker 2: 24:40

Oh, exactly, I mean, the guys are, they're, they're treated, you know, tremendously. But I remember that first day they said, okay, you know, so-and-so passed away. And I'm like, oh man, I hate that, you know. And they said, okay, well, we got to get ready for the morgue, because the medical center I don't know if Springfield had him we had a morgue. Yeah, we take the inmates down. We take the inmates down the morgue and we put them in the, in the freezer there and wait for you know, mortuary service to come pick them up, which was in within a couple of days.

Speaker 2: 25:11

And I remember them bringing in this, this bag, and I'm like, oh, and we're all going to do with that. They said, well, we got to put them, we got to wrap them up. And I'm like, going, this is crazy. And you know, at first the same thing. I'm like going, man, I don't, I don't want to do this, I'd rather just go work somewhere else. And but I remember putting that tag on his toe and, uh, wrapping them up and then moving from the hospital bed to a gurney, taking them down the morgue and then having to count them.

Speaker 2: 25:45

But, uh, I remember, uh, like I said, you know, taking them down the morgue and then, you know, count came and they said, uh, hey, uh, you need to go down the morgue and count that guy. I'm like going you're joking, right. And I'm like, no, he's got. You got to make sure he's still there. I'm like going, I don't think he's going anywhere, like going you never know. I'm like going you got to be kidding me. So I got the keys down the morgue and go down there and I kind of opened the refrigerator door and I said, well, he's still here in a hotel back out of there. Um, but yeah, I mean he's on.

Speaker 1: 26:22

He's on the count till he's inside the fence. He's on the count and that's where he service comes.

Speaker 1: 26:27

Yeah, and then a lot of people will will think that's just crazy. But you know, one of the escapes that we had while I was at the federal medical center, the officers were downtown sitting on an inmate who had had open heart surgery. Okay, they had cracked his chest and went in there and done open heart surgery. The officers weren't doing their jobs, had, uh, had went to sleep and did not chain him. He was up and gone within hours of having open heart surgery. So you know, you can't take chances on stuff like that. Uh, you, you. Until they're outside your fence and they're pronounced dead, we count them. Yeah, yes, Like crazy.

Speaker 2: 27:10

We had one guy at the hospital and, uh, you know, well, you know the hospital, outside hospital and we're working on, and uh, he had a blood clot straight straight to his brain and uh, so we called the medical center and we said, hey, man, so and so passed away. You know, he's gone and they're like going all right, well, one of you could leave, but one of you has to stay. I don't say the thing about them. Well, we both gotta stay. Why can't we both leave? They said, well, aren't these gotta come out? And they got a fingerprint on them, they gotta take pictures, they gotta do all this. And you know, somebody's gotta come in and take the body. And once they take the body, then you could go. I'm like going, well, this is free time. I just said back on watch TV, this is awesome. And then R&D came and they took the fingerprints and they took photos. And then it was kind of like going hey, you know, can you hang out here another hour? Cause I guess R&D didn't want to stay. So I said, well, I can't, another hour, no problem. And then the mortuary service came in and I signed a piece of paper saying, hey, he's yours Now. First I was like, oh, I'm not signing, more than let me call somebody. And they called. They said, allen, you can sign it, it's okay, I'm like. So I signed it and I said, right, here's the body. I said I'd go home now. Right, they said, yeah, you don't need to stay. But yeah, it was. It's really interesting to work at the medical center.

Speaker 2: 28:43

I tried, when we opened up the medium, the high, I went over there and we activated it and that was my first time ever seeing penitentiary inmates Right, and I didn't like that at all. I was like I'm going back to medical center and cause, I didn't want that violence. I, you know it sounds kind of funny, but I ended up going to the same place that these guys came from and ended up working there for another 10 years. And but the violence that I mean it was, it was like it was unreal. It was Aryan brotherhood. They'd beat a guy to a pulp Right. And then they I'm like, oh, hey, get back, get back, get back. And they're like, hold on a minute. They checked the guy. The guy actually checked his pulse and said he's still breathing, we're good. And they went back and sat down. I'm like, so you didn't kill him. We didn't want to kill him, we just wanted him to feel what we feel Like, whatever that means. And that's when you were at Pollock, right? No, that was. I was still at Budner. That was at the medium high when we just because when the medium high opened up, the first set of inmates we got was 128 inmates for special housing. They were all penitentiary inmates, they were all going to like a smoo, I think it was. So where are their stop off point to say, hey, you're going to house these 120 inmates until we get a bus, come in and take them to smoo, which is that special management unit, and then we'll break them off there. So we're like, okay, well, you know, we're all just going to work restrictive housing.

Speaker 2: 30:25

And there's Lieutenant and I think he was Lieutenant Davis, I think he went on to be a captain. He was a great guy, Always very knowledgeable. He says I need a set of crew, so I'm going to pick my own officers. And I was one of the officers that he picked and we all went over to the medium and it was a set crew and there was no union involvement, nothing. Of course. We all know what the union is going to do. How wait a minute. So-and-so wants to go. He's got more seniority. So union didn't even get involved. The union was like going hey, that's fine with us, you know, you guys could pick who you want to go over there. So they picked about 20 of us, 30 of us, and we went over there and we worked those three shifts and that's what the Lieutenant wanted and that's what the warden agreed on.

Speaker 1: 31:14

So when you're dealing with that kind of stuff, who and what officer is working there? Because, you know it, there's officers out there that come in and will stir up stuff, and then there's officers who come in and keep things calm. So when you're dealing with that level of inmate, absolutely, if you can do that, that would have been great.

Speaker 2: 31:33

It's like you know you got. You know we had a J unit, which is a separate unit, at Butner, that you had to be a select officer to work there. You know, same thing, the union that was part of the MOU with the warden. You know saying hey, when it comes to this particular post, if I don't like this officer, he's not working it. And it was a select unit that it only held five inmates and those inmates were like you know, the blind sheep that was there, a couple of the other 911 inmates that were up there that the marshals bought in that night. They stayed two nights and then we shipped them off somewhere else, which I don't know where they went, but those were. That was a unit where only a select few could work.

Speaker 2: 32:26

Right, you know, and I must have been pretty good because I got selected for a couple of these jobs. You know, sometimes I can sit back and go. Man, I was. I must have been a really dumbass for you know some of these places because I didn't get the credit that I wanted. But yet you sit back and you look at some of these things, go. You know, wait a minute, if I was a dumbass then I really wouldn't have been selected for all these other positions.

Speaker 1: 32:52

Right.

Speaker 2: 32:55

So did you work much with.

Speaker 1: 32:57

The last episode I had is dealing with mental health inmates and I talk a little bit about dealing with that. Did you deal with very much mental health while you were there?

Speaker 2: 33:05

Oh, my God, all the time Tell me about that. I like staying in control, so I work, control a lot, but then when I had to go out to work mental health, I worked mental health. And these guys, it's a whole different animal, it's a whole different beast. These guys, you know they, just on a drop of a dime, you know they get their wrong dose of medication or they don't come to the window to get their medication. You know they. Just they become the strongest individuals in the world.

Speaker 2: 33:40

You know you're talking about a hundred pound inmate that you know is going to fight 10 staff. You know, and it's, it's, it's crazy. And they, they, they walk around like zombies sometimes. You know, they, they, they don't take showers. They don't take. You know, they don't clean up, they don't do hygiene. And we actually have to go in there and get them and bring them out so the nurse can give them their shot of whatever to calm them down, and then we'll take them in the shower and we'll actually have to shower these guys. But you know, same thing, it goes back to wait. I'm a correctional officer. You know I'm supposed to be doing this and that. Why am I having to bathe inmates? Why am I having to do this and that? Well, you signed up for this job.

Speaker 1: 34:29

You know this is part of working here at the medical center, you know on one of the things I said, and I came from penitentiaries before I went to uh Springfield, but I had dealt with penitentiary inmates and I knew, for the most part, you could read body language, you could read what was going to happen, you could read if you were going to get attacked. You know, by the way, a person might be flexing their hands or or their posture when they're coming up to you. You know from an inmate, and when I went to the medical center, I wasn't ready for the switch that they have, because they go from just this blank stare to, all of a sudden, you're getting attacked by someone that's out of control, exactly, and there's nothing in between to tell you it's coming. That was the hardest thing for me.

Speaker 2: 35:15

Yeah, and our thing was to you know, as a correctional officer, you know, and we both say the same thing and I think when Glenn was on your on your podcast, mike was on your podcast, they kind of said the same thing. It's the hands. We're always watching the hands. Take your hands out of your pockets, take your hands, you know. You know behind your back. I want to see your hands.

Speaker 2: 35:35

Right, the mental health inmates. You'd see their hands all the time and they'd be down by their side, but then all of a sudden you see their hands kind of crunching. There's kind of like. They're like oh hey, are they losing feeling in their hands? Nope, they're getting ready to jump on you. Yeah, and that was the thing that we watched all the time.

Speaker 2: 35:54

You know, if you see an inmate walking around the, you know the vestibule, because how the medical said, I don't know how Springfield was set up, but the medical center, they always had a nurses or officer station vestibule in the middle. Then they had the cells, they wrapped around the corridor and so the inmates walked around this vessel all the time and you see them stop and all of a sudden their hands would start opening up. You're like going oh, here we go and the nurses say, hey, you know, they start pointing and they're like going I think he's getting ready to go. So we walk him back through a cell and most times knock on wood that they went through the cell and they lay down. But there was times where before we get around the corner, you know they were on the floor or they were trying to grab a hold of whatever they could grab a hold of.

Speaker 2: 36:46

And there was some pretty good assaults on officers where they got punched in the face. Nothing major like when we went to get ready to go to a penitentiary, but a lot of it was on inmate on inmate, where another inmate just kind of crossed that path and the inmate was right there waiting for him. You're right, mental health was kind of freaky, but we did have a member of the inmate. He was a federal officer at the time. Well, he was not at the time, but he used to be one.

Speaker 2: 37:21

He got caught up in an inmate abuse charge where other officers jumped on an inmate and when they filmed it, when they were looking at the camera, he was in the elevator with those officers. So he got charged and he ended up coming to Bunner but he was playing the mental health card and saying that you know, hey, and he would for like a whole year. He was just walking around that vessel, like I said, like in a zombie state, and A female officer was getting attacked by an inmate Another mental health inmate and you can see the camera where he kind of looked in the vestibule and he looked back, he shook his head, he's like, and he ran in there and saved her life and uh, yep, and they're like on. Wait a minute, you were just like a zombie, you know, for a whole year he said look he's. I was not gonna let this officer get attacked. Yeah, he says so.

Speaker 2: 38:18

How'd she do? Was she she okay? Yeah, she's, she's fine. Oh, she's, she's she. I mean, she just got knocked down. They hit her with a.

Speaker 2: 38:27

They may hit her with the back of a arm one of those room dusters, you know, I'm talking about camera, we used to call them it was a dustpan with a long stick, yep, and he had her with that and knocked her down and was probably getting ready to do some other things and this, this like said this inmate song and he's like thing, and he actually got her radio and what to everybody off was, you know, I was going to the systems office needs assistance, we're in. You know one G, you know officer down. I mean, he was just boom, boom, just calling out the codes and and when we got there it was almost like we're hitting him. He's like, oh, I'm gonna call it, I'm gonna call it, we're going. You could talk Wow, that's crazy story, I think a couple weeks later he, they actually let him out. You got a condition. He got a conditional release saying, hey, we appreciate what you did, yeah, but that was that was my student really at the medical center. And then you know, my favorite warden of all time, sarah rebel.

Speaker 2: 39:35

That was my mom, that was my mom and she, she was just Unbelievable. She was just I can't explain her, just her attitude. You know the way she talked to staff, the way she took care of staff. I mean, I don't know if you know Ty rule. Yeah, yeah, me, me and Ty were her, her voice, and you know, ty had a little bit more than me, though I don't know, I mean, he were at Florence, but Her and Ty were. He was really close.

Speaker 2: 40:10

And then I came in the picture and, you know, miss rebel took me under her wing and that was on after that and I remember we're an ART and it was January, the 6th of 2011. She'd come in and it was that Friday where all the wardens get together and they say, hey, you know, this is what we expect. I, where they talk ethics and all that's good stuff, and at the end she was like going. I get to do something I have never done in my career I get to promote somebody in this room and In front of people, instead just calm on the phone or calm in my office. Yeah, and I'm sitting around going.

Speaker 2: 40:53

Who got promoted? You know? And she's. I get to promote my son and you know, water Allen and everybody kind of look like your son and we had no shit, we, I mean we miss relevant there for years. And I'm like going, I'll get promoted. She's yeah, you're going to USP Paulic, louisiana. I was like whew, where's that at? And I said she's like this is Louisiana. I said where's Louisiana? And she was like going, it's down by Texas. I was like going okay, so I was kind of excited and then, you know, I don't know any place or what happened.

Speaker 2: 41:36

Well, it was a complex and we all know that. You know, if I put in for a single institution, I'd probably be a nine lieutenant all my career. So I started putting in for complexes and it's it's funny because I put in for butler and I just I don't. For some reason I couldn't get butler. Um, and Mr Ikenbaum, he was the, the south central I mean north Mid-acoustic regional director at the time and he had come and uh, was talking to staff and said my philosophy is that I will not promote within the institutions anymore. He says, if you want to get promoted, if you want to get promoted, you need to move Well. And I was like, going, well, there goes my chance of going to be an lieutenant butler. So I started, that's when I put in for the different complexes.

Speaker 2: 42:30

And you know, um, I had wardens and captains, you know, um, that would come up and say, allen, put in for your lieutenant, put in for your lieutenant. And that's that meant a lot that you know people thought of me that way. You know, um, I had great lieutenants. You know great captains. You know, uh, teddy Moscow, you know Sean Kearney, um, davis, brian Smith and not Brian Smith. Oh man, if you ever watch this, you're probably mad at me. Kelly Smith, kelly Smith, uh, they're all my lieutenants and mentors at butler. And Kelly Smith, he, he knew him to not get along when I first got there and later he was one of my biggest supporters. You know, he, he really believed in me and, uh, like I said, sean Kearney and Teddy muskar, they all believed in me and I still play golf with a couple of them today. But, uh, I got the Pollock and I'm like going so right was it?

Speaker 1: 43:30

was it more them wanting you to uh Become a lieutenant, or was there reasons you wanted to become a lieutenant? Does it feel like you needed to do, or I did.

Speaker 2: 43:41

I felt like it was time, um, when, when venus still opened up in, I think, 2006 or somewhere around that area, I put in for it and uh, mr Bealer, he was like going, putting for it, you know, putting for it. So I put in for it and you know, and then I kind of was like going, no, I'm not ready yet, right, I don't think I'm ready to be a lieutenant yet. And he was mad and I was like sorry, you know, I'm not ready to go, I'm not ready, ready to take that role yet. And uh, about 10 years later, well, you know, uh, 10 years into my career, I decided that you know what I've been a gsa for?

Speaker 2: 44:21

You know seven of those 10 years. I mean, I was one of the few that got our our eights really fast. Um, I came in as a six, I got my seven the following year, two years later, we all got eights and those are the ones that activated the, the medical center, yeah and uh, mr Bealer gave us yeah, it sounds like our careers had Uh, a very or are common in many ways, and that's one of them that I feel like we're in common.

Speaker 1: 44:48

I was, uh, I had 12 years in the bureau before I promoted. Um, now, I had been acting for years and years. They kept pulling me, you know, be acting lieutenant and stuff, and but you couldn't get promoted there. But I also didn't feel like I was ready. I for some reason I didn't feel like I was ready to step into that and I think part of that was and you can tell me if you felt this I had such great lieutenants at the time that felt like a huge step to reach their level, you know.

Speaker 1: 45:19

And and later on, once I got there, you know, I saw that it wasn't as big a step. It was how you supervised and what you did for the people under you. But I think it was the fact that I had these lieutenants who kind of you know they were, they were top bar lieutenants. They're at the medical center and I didn't know that I could reach that level, and I think there's people that do that, you know, all over the place and sometimes you just got to, sometimes you just got to jump when that door opens, walk through it and do your best, because I don't know that you're ever Completely ready. What do you think?

Speaker 2: 45:51

Yeah, you know, I agree, Um. You know you got good lieutenants that you work for, that you're around all the time and you admire, and it's like going, man, these guys are just just awesome. You know, I want to be just like them. You know, um, and then as time goes by, you start seeing the little things that they kind of change your mind. Like, um, when I put in for my lieutenant, when I, when I knew I was ready, um, uh, tenant champ, joe, champ. He was on his way retiring and, uh, I stayed.

Speaker 2: 46:20

He stayed a few years after I went to Pollack but there was an incident where we were down there in special housing and it was with a door issue, the door opening up, and I kind of put my foot at the door and held the door. He's like what are you doing? I said, hey, we got enough staff, mm-hmm. And it was like when he's like on, he closed door and locked the door and it was like going, look, I'm the lieutenant. I'm like you know what? I'm getting ready to be lieutenant. I said I'm gonna go and put in for this. I said I'm gonna make a difference, you know, but being Joe got along great. You know, he was a great, great, great lieutenant. So I'm not knocking was just that one incident that I remember. That was the incident Said it's time.

Speaker 2: 47:00

It's time to put in, because it was one of those things where I Thought it was time for me to make a difference. It was time for me to use all this experience that I I brought in to start throwing that officer saying, hey, this is the right way to do things, this is the wrong way doing things. So I put in for lieutenant and you know I got it the first shot. I mean I don't think my application, well, I take that back. I'll idea.

Speaker 2: 47:29

I put in for Tallahassee, florida, and another officer that worked, mean, her work control together, and and she got it. And I was so disappointed I was like, oh my god, I wanted to go to Florida and you got the position she says, well, there's other positions when there was like three, four months later, you know, um, you know, miss Rebel, you know, promoted me, but I was the same thing. I acted as lieutenant for about a year and it seemed like you got to month 30, you know, day 30 of that month, and Well, day 28 of 30 days, miss, hey, you need to go work the cadre. I'm like going right, okay, you know, and I didn't realize at the time that if I'd hit that 30 day they would have to pay me GS9 pay.

Speaker 2: 48:11

Yeah and so they would send us back to the cadre and work a couple days and say, okay, hey, start lieutenant again. But I knew what I was doing. When you know, I got the Pollock.

Speaker 1: 48:22

I Would like to take a minute to thank one of our sponsors that make the prison officer podcast possible. Omni RTLS is a company that I've been working with for the last year. I am proud to be part of this team of correctional professionals who have developed the best real-time Locating system on the market today. With Omni's real-time location technology, you automatically know the accurate locations and interactions of all inmates, staff and assets anywhere in your correctional facility, and you have this information in real time. Omni is cutting-edge software for today's jails and prisons. It is the only way to monitor every square inch of your facility while still being pre a compliant. Go to WWW Omni RTLS for more information and to make your facility safer. Today, that's WWW omni dot com.