The Prison Officer Podcast
75: Part 1 - Best of The Prison Officer - Doing What's Right, Even When it's Tough - Interview w/Glen MacDonald
Glen's reflections on the internal battles correctional officers face—such as finding drugs and corruption within their ranks—are eye-opening. These revelations highlight the lesser-known aspects of prison life and the constant vigilance required to uphold the law within its walls. The discussion around the corruption he witnessed, and the challenges it posed to his own moral compass, underscores the complexities of working in corrections.
This episode is Part 1 of 2, so be sure and listen to Episode 76: Doing What's Right, Even When It's Tough - Interview w/Glen MacDonald - Part 2
Glen also shares his passion for staying active, including CrossFit and “rucking,” and how completing more than 120 GoRuck events has allowed him to “get comfortable with being uncomfortable.”
Mainline S & C podcast with Glen MacDonald
GORUCK | The Rucking Company
Contact us: mike@theprisonofficer.com
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/ThePrisonOfficer
Take care of each other and Be Safe behind those walls and fences!
Glen's reflections on the internal battles correctional officers face—such as finding drugs and corruption within their ranks—are eye-opening. These revelations highlight the lesser-known aspects of prison life and the constant vigilance required to uphold the law within its walls. The discussion around the corruption he witnessed, and the challenges it posed to his own moral compass, underscores the complexities of working in corrections.
This episode is Part 1 of 2, so be sure and listen to Episode 76: Doing What's Right, Even When It's Tough - Interview w/Glen MacDonald - Part 2
Glen also shares his passion for staying active, including CrossFit and “rucking,” and how completing more than 120 GoRuck events has allowed him to “get comfortable with being uncomfortable.”
Mainline S & C podcast with Glen MacDonald
GORUCK | The Rucking Company
Contact us: mike@theprisonofficer.com
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/ThePrisonOfficer
Take care of each other and Be Safe behind those walls and fences!
In more than 28 years of corrections, I have used or supervised pepperball hundreds of times. Now, as a master instructor for pepperball, I teach others about the versatility and effectiveness of the pepperball system. From cell extractions to disturbances on the wreckyard, pepperball is the first option in my correctional toolbox, With the ability to transition quickly from area saturation to direct impact with the non-lethal pava projectiles. Pepperball provides me with a range of non-lethal options for cell extractions involving non-compliant inmates and when the use of force is over, decontamination is easy with no oily residue on the walls or floors. To learn more about pepperball, go to wwwpepperballcom or click the show notes below. Pepperball is the safer option. First. This is a rebroadcast of episode 39, doing what's right even when it's tough. An interview with Glenn McDonald. Welcome, Glenn McDonald. I'm glad to have you back on the podcast.
Speaker 2:Thank you, mike, appreciate it, I appreciate it.
Speaker 1:I had you on here on the captain's table not too long ago.
Speaker 2:That was great. That was a really good idea. I really liked that.
Speaker 1:We need to do another one of those. I thought we had a really good conversation, but today I want to focus on you, start from the beginning and tell me where you grew up and what you did growing up, what kind of family life and stuff you had.
Speaker 2:Glenn McDonald. I was born and raised in Connecticut, which is a very small state in the northeast. If people don't know where it is, it's below Massachusetts and in between Rhode Island and New York.
Speaker 2:It's a very small town I don't know Well. Where I lived is called Manchester, connecticut, so it was like in between Harford and a few other more rural type areas, more farmland type areas. Funny thing is a couple of weeks ago my uncle passed away and my father, who's a little bit older now he needed some help to get around. I went back with him and I was just like man, what the hell? I can't believe this place has not changed one bit. I mean I haven't been back there in like 20-something years and I can't believe it. I mean it looks exactly the same.
Speaker 1:How big a doubt it's probably. Why are we people?
Speaker 2:Probably no more than 10,000 somewhere around here.
Speaker 2:I'm just guessing, but it's not that many people. So I'm really good, very good upbringing close knit family. From what I remember, I was always over at my aunt and uncles. My father had seven brothers and two sisters, so it was very huge family. We were always doing something. My dad was like a big fisherman. We always went fishing quite a bit.
Speaker 2:When I was younger, I played high school. I played football. I tried wrestling. I wasn't very good at that. I was a lot better at football. I thought. I thought, anyways, I tried my best with that. I went through high school and, yeah, just an average kid, you know, just Well, not average, I should say I really enjoyed the military type history stuff. So I was like a kind of like Well, back then I mean, people didn't know what geeks were, but I was kind of geeking out on the military history stuff and you know, I mean back then it was okay to run around with a plastic M16 playing, you know, playing war and stuff like that, and people wouldn't call the police on you or anything like that. You know we do all kinds of fun stuff on the weekends, you're about my age.
Speaker 1:so we were playing Rambo, we were playing Commando. That's when all the good war movies came out. Yep, yeah.
Speaker 2:I always had a history of military service in your family. Actually, from what I remember, I think I don't know if my grandfather, my dad's, dad was in the military? I'm not even sure. I just had a cousin that was in the military, that's it. You know, I just kind of gravitated towards that and was very, you knew where you were going after high school then.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I pretty much had. The plan was I was definitely going to go into the military I didn't know which branch and then I was kind of like I think my cousin went into the army and then I was reading books about the army, the Marine Corps very few books back then about certain things I remember reading one book.
Speaker 2:I want to say it was called the Diary of Guadalcanal. It was about the Marines landing Guadalcanal in the fighting jungle. Fighting I was like, oh man, that's great, that sounds great. I was living in a jungle and fighting. I'm thinking about, I mean, I don't know, it's kind of strange.
Speaker 2:I definitely was not the smartest kid. I wasn't very good at math and history and studying and all this. I was more like hey, let's go outside and play football or do some kind of sports or do something outside, and more of like a hands-on type of guy. That whole academic thing was not a big deal for me. Back then I should have studied more.
Speaker 2:Probably when I took the ASVAB for the, I remember I went into the Air Force because I think my mom I was telling my mom how I wanted to join the military she's like well, go to the Air Force, all right. So you got to listen to your parents. So I go talk to the guy. And I think I took a pre-ASVAB type test. I can't remember what it was. Back then I probably just totally Probably got like a 10% pass or something, I don't know. These just basically kind of laughed me out of the office. Then I went to the Army and I saw the Army guy and I was like yeah, he's like kind of like all out of shape and just kind of like nasty looking. I'm like no, I think I'll pass on that.
Speaker 2:Then I went over to the Navy Same in the Navy guy kind of like launch line. I think back then you could smoke in the office. I think he's like just sitting back smoking, drinking coffee and I'm just like, nah, then I went over. I think I came back a few days later and, of course, back then I'm like riding my bike to the recruiter, stuff like that. And I went in the Marine Corps and this guy was short like barrel-chested, he was a gunnery sergeant. His name was Gunny Gunnery Sergeant Hando.
Speaker 2:I was like man that is like the coolest, freaking name. He's got to be like a commando, right? His name is Hando. He's definitely a special guy or something. We kind of hit it off pretty good. I don't know if he fudged my scores or what he did, but I passed the ASVAB somehow. I passed. Just enough. I get passed the ASVAB Back. Then you're just a number. So I was like, hey, I got a great opportunity for you. I'm going to be like an aircraft mechanic, something that's going to help me out later. In my head I was like I want to be infantry, just infantry. Just give me a rifle and I'll run around and shoot stuff. I got a great opportunity. You're going to go open contract. Oh what's that? I was like well, when you get in and you get through boot camp, they're going to pick you up as what they need and most likely it's going to be infantry. And I'm like sold. It's just like across my head it should have said sucker.
Speaker 2:So I signed my life away and I get my report day to boot camp for like June 26, like six days after I graduate high school.
Speaker 1:So I'm like, oh yeah.
Speaker 2:I can't wait, can't wait. And it's funny, my friend, my friend John, we both played football together and actually did a podcast with him too. We actually went in under what they called the buddy program. So you go in with you, sign up a friend together, you both go in at the same time, so you kind of go through boot camp together. Depending on your MOS, you might go through your MOS school together, stuff like that. So me and John are like, oh, hell, yeah, and people giving us parties before we left and good times, so we leave for boot camp, go to Paris Island.
Speaker 2:I wanna say it was like three, definitely within the first week. I wanna say three to five days. We do our initial PFT where they rate you on your pull-ups, sit-ups in a three mile run. I'm definitely no PT stutter or anything like that where I can knock out 20 pull-ups and 80 sit-ups in a three mile run. You know, I barely made. I got just a minimum, probably on everything, so I passed it and, lo and behold, john fails. So you know, and here I am in Paris Island and I'm like, oh, now my high school buddy, he's getting kicked out or he's going. Well, they actually what they did? They recycled them to a different battalion. So I think he got like pushed back like two weeks or something. So I'm going through boot camp and I was like man, I really like this. You know, this is my thing, I really like it getting yelled at discipline, marching, running around with doing all these combat drills and things like that, and I was like, oh, I'm in my place, I'm definitely in my place.
Speaker 2:I was 19 at the time and you know, skinny kind of I guess, in kind of good shape, yeah, but I still struggled. I definitely struggled in boot camp. I mean, it's definitely something you know. I look back and I'm like, man, maybe I should have ran more, maybe I should have done more push-ups or tried to find a pull-up bar before I went in. So but you know I made it. You know I made it through. Definitely different coming from Connecticut to a big giant pool of people from all over the place, which was kind of a I don't want to say struggle. It was kind of just different, you know, because I wasn't exposed to too many people back then.
Speaker 1:Right, it was a very small area where I lived.
Speaker 2:We didn't really. We traveled a little bit when I was a kid, but nothing like what you ran to. Like you know I was in. I was in boot camp with guys from like New York city.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I was like, wow, this is like a whole different person type of person. You know. I remember one time like I don't know if you've ever really interviewed two other other Marines or anything, but they used to have in boot camp they'd have these some of the recruiter or recruits were like enforcers for the drill instructors. So if somebody would get out of line all of a sudden they'd take that one Marine. They go, put them in the in the head, the bathroom and all of a sudden the enforcer would go in there. Either either you wouldn't see that recruit again or he come out with a couple of stitches in his face. I'm new attitude, oh yeah, I mean back then. Back then it happened, you know, it just happened.
Speaker 1:Sure. Just the way this is the way it was. You can still put hands on people back then.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah. Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, I've seen, I saw a few times I've had this one guy, sergeant Askew. He's one of our drill instructors and he'd beat the living shit out of people.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know you'd be standing there in formation or standing inside the squad bay, you know, at a position of attention in your underwear, you know cause. You know you're doing all these crazy inspections and you're like you want me to stand them out I don't know where, like what the hell's happened? Yeah, and he's over there beating some guys ass. It's like wow, what the hell is it so?
Speaker 1:So what MOS did they give you?
Speaker 2:So I end up so I end up getting through like the second or third day before graduation. They sit, sit, everybody down in the classroom. They start announcing what your MOS is and it's funny. He's like like the left side. You're like McDonald's flipping eggs.
Speaker 2:I'm like flipping eggs, I'm just like you know, I have no idea what he's even talking about. So he's like it seemed like they like cut the class in half. It's like this side of the class is all motor tea, this side of the class is all cooks, and I'm just like sitting on like flipping eggs, flipping eggs, and you know you can't talk, you can't ask questions, so you know, and usually in that third phase, just before, just before graduation, they kind of treat you a little bit better.
Speaker 2:They're not yelling and screaming at you, and I think one of the guys that was in our was in my same MOS. He's like you know, private Johnson's request permission to speak. Sir, speak. He's like what's flipping eggs? You're a nasty cook. You're a freaking nasty cook. That's what you are. How are you gonna be?
Speaker 2:And the guys that got picked for cooks were like cooks, like what. We didn't wanna do that. So we, so we graduate, go home for a couple of days, go back to our. Then we go and go into our MOS school, which was in Camp Johnson, which is a little camp offside of a outside of Camp Lejeune. So, and they have like Camp Gogger, camp Johnson, they're just little MOS schools. Camp Gogger was all infantry type stuff. We went directly. I would actually I'll take that back my job was even funnier. I think it's hilarious. My job was a basic baker. I was a baker, so I was like all right, I wanna be baking cookies and making biscuits for everybody, like all right. So this is, though. You know, we show up and all motivated, we're young Marines and going through this school. Like what the hell, like what? I don't wanna do this shit.
Speaker 1:Wow, and this guy, this guy.
Speaker 2:Mike. Who was this guy Mike from? He was actually from Coventry, connecticut, which is just like a hole in the wall place.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Real small town and he ended up being a basic baker. He's like I'm not doing this crap. He's like I came in, I wanna you know, I wanna be infantry, I wanna go to the recon, I wanna do this and this and this and this, sure enough. He's like oh, I hurt my back at PT today. He was gone Like that dude, like faked that injury. He's gone. They separate him from the record. He's gone.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so you know things like that you could probably get away with back. Then, you know, if they didn't want you, if you didn't want to be there, what, why the hell you wanna be there?
Speaker 1:Just get ready. Well, what year was this?
Speaker 2:This is so still 88. Yeah 1988.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we hadn't really geared up. You know the military in the early 80s hell, they were getting rid of people, you know. So, yeah, it wasn't as hard.
Speaker 2:I get through that school and I get assigned to segmenting second Marines, which is just down the street at Campbell's June, and they're like hey, go home and leave. You gotta, you got four days, I'll leave, okay. And some other Sergeant was checking in at the same time. He's like where are you from? I said Connecticut, sergeant, and he's like I'm from New York. You wanna ride us? Like okay. So I like bummed a ride from this guy. I didn't even freaking know.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:We get up there and I think I got on the bus, I think I took a bus from there to Connecticut. I go home for vacation, for Christmas leave, I think it was and come back and like boom, get deployed. I go to cold weather training for I'm gonna say it was like four months, three to four months. We went to California coldest place in the world Wisconsin and then to Norway for about a month. Wow, I did that. And then I came back, got deployed to Okinawa in my job.
Speaker 2:Man, I was like, I was like huh, I'm like okay, I gotta wear this funny white uniform and my ranks have gotta be perfect, this boots gotta be polished, all this stuff, and they end up putting me in this thing. It's a job called the field mess. When the infantry units go out to the field, I go and I'll cook them what they used to call a hot wets, so it was like hot soup, coffee and one other thing I can't remember.
Speaker 2:That was like my job. I became like the guy that, hey, echo company's going on the field, you're going. I was like okay, so you know, I'd always just have my stuff clean. Yeah, it was a good time. I mean, I really liked that part as far as like being kind of like the responsibility was put on me as a I think I was a Lance Corpo E3. When I got assigned the job and there was a corporal that did it with me but man, he's a the corporal just sat back and just chilled.
Speaker 2:I did everything it was great.
Speaker 1:So how'd you go from cook in the Marines to a bureau of prisons?
Speaker 2:So I get out. Oh well, then I went to. So I got deployed to a Desert storm.
Speaker 1:Oh, okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, went through Desert Storm. We didn't we cook there for about Two weeks and then they pushed us. Our first sergeant loved us because we our first sergeant was like Kind of like a hefty guy.
Speaker 1:He's a Vietnam. That real great guy, real great guy.
Speaker 2:First Sergeant veal. I still remember his name and he'd always come, he'd be like hey, because I'd have to always go to the company office to Get like the mail for everybody and stuff like that. So He'd be like hey, mcdonald, go, go, make me some cinnamon rolls. Are first Back of the chow hall and I tell the Whoever's in charge of the bakery hey, first start, want some cinnamon rolls and knock out a bunch of bunch of pastries and stuff. He loved us loved us.
Speaker 2:We get, we get over to the Gulf and he's like hey, I need you guys to come up front With us to do do patrols and stuff for like patrols, what do you mean? Like we're gonna go with front with you guys? Oh yeah, come on, let's go. So we did that and we got lights, we got trained, we got augmented to a anti-tank Company with this reserve unit and we got to like blow up a bunch of tanks, all kinds of cool shit. There's the funniest thing. It was like We'd run into these grunts from our, from our unit, from 2-2, and one time I ran into this guy he was a scout sniper and worse. I mean, mike, we're like freaking miles away from everybody, like we're looking down with shit. I think we're really too far ahead.
Speaker 2:We're just sitting there in a security position in this other Humvee pulls up, he goes McDonald what the hell are you doing up here? I was like I'm attached to this tow company. He's like aren't you a cook? I said yeah, you know how far ahead of you Everybody else you are is like no. He's like you guys better like stay right here or move back a little bit, because you guys are like ahead of everybody oh oh funny.
Speaker 2:Yeah, then you know, we kind of got that reputation In our in our unit, like hey, don't, don't mess it those guys, they're pretty pretty good dudes.
Speaker 1:So we're cooks.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, well, we called ourselves combat cooks, combat cooks. There you go, so we, uh, so I end up getting out of the Marine Corps and you know a couple, a couple things happen in the Marine Corps, like I was when I was in Okinawa. I was this, just Lee, attacked by another Marine and he tried to kill me, tried to cut my throat and I I fought him off and I ended up just getting stabbed in the chest pretty bad. I got a pretty good wound right here, wow, where my pectoral muscle needs, everywhere, right here, and it's kind of like ruin. They're ruining a lot of things for me because, you know, I wanted to reenlist. I couldn't pass a PT test anymore. I had trouble shooting.
Speaker 1:I had trouble shooting.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because it really affected me pretty bad, hard. It was really hard to work out after that. It's still, to this day, still hurts a little bit here and there, um, a lot of scar tissue built up in there, things like that. So when I got out I didn't know what the hell I was gonna do. I was fucking, I mean, I was scared man. I was like I don't know what to do, right, you know, and I was only Not to say I desert storm was like fighting in Afghanistan or Iraq, but you know it was our, it's our little war. You know it was like, hey, we sure we saw combat, we Blew some tanks up with some people in it, we shot at people and stuff like that. You know, right, yeah, that plays a game with you. So I get out. I was married at the time. Um, my daughter was already. What's my daughter?
Speaker 2:my daughter was probably probably Going on pretty close to a year, Maybe like eight months somewhere. Oh yeah, so I'm gonna try and join the army. That didn't work right tried to do that and then End up moving back to Connecticut because we really didn't have anywhere to go. I started working at a restaurant. He hated it, absolutely hated it.
Speaker 1:I just couldn't like it was.
Speaker 2:It was hard to adjust to back to society. Early 90s is like uh 92. Yeah, it was September of 92 when I got out really hard to get back into this to the society. I felt, um, I ended up joining the Marine Corps reserves in Massachusetts, which Was a blessing. I'm still I'm still active in the Marine Corps as a reservist now. By now I was a corporal, I get up, I I report to my reserve reserve unit and, just so happens, I Know the uh master gunnery sergeant from from when I was in the Marine Corps and active active Marine Corps. He's like, hey, it's like mac, you got it, you're running the whole thing. Okay, so I just took charge and he's, you know, did his thing, I did my thing and we had a real good team up there. Things really went well and I really loved doing that. Still had a hard time with like the pt stuff and I mean it was just, it was tough. So then I'm like all right, now I have to find a full-time job. I can't work in restaurants. I already realized that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think I was uh.
Speaker 2:Worked on a tire store like changing tires and stuff. So I was like, whatever, whatever money I could make, I was trying to make. So whatever came along, and I was like unloading, like, uh, I was unloading bananas off of a tractor trailer to by hand yeah, 53 foot trailer by hand. You're unloading it at like two in the morning. I'm just like man, what the hell am I doing? Right, it was tough, tough work. So you know, like working three jobs, kid at home, a very unhappy wife, just it was tough. So I end up all right. So either I'm gonna try to become a cop or or something like that. So I applied for the state police Didn't work out. Applied for one of the towns didn't work out. Um, you know, you, even back then they were like, hey, we want, we want people with an education. I'm like, oh, you know.
Speaker 2:I'm a veteran and you know, didn't really matter. So right Actually, went back to. I went to school. I started going to school, realized I couldn't do that either. Just I don't know, man, it's just kind of one of those things it's like hard for me to accept or Adjust back into society. I guess you could say right I end up.
Speaker 2:I don't know if I met somebody. I think I met somebody that was working for um. Can I get um department of corrections? So I'm like looking it up and you know, prison was not on my mind at all. And uh, I'm like and I look through the, the, the um Job openings ahead and they had a. They had a food service specialist type job. I was like okay. Well.
Speaker 2:I know how to. I know how to cook and mass, I know how to do all that stuff. So, so I get an interview. I'm like like yes, I'm gonna get this job. And I think back then it was like 25, 30 000 a year or whatever. I'm like I'm gonna be rich. So, right, right, I remember going for the interview and I, you know Military. The Marine Corps teaches you hey, you're gonna, you're gonna look professional all the time, you're gonna have a nice suit, had a tie on, and I walk in this place and it is an absolute shell.
Speaker 1:I want to say it was in um, I want to say he was in harford.
Speaker 2:Can I get the, uh the county lockup type place. So I go in there and the the guy uh, I guess he was in charge of food service just me and him doing the interview. Right, he's asked me some food service questions. Now here's this guy. He's got like a, like a white t-shirt with With, like spaghetti stains. I'm just like man, this, this ain't gonna be good. I don't know. I don't know if I'm gonna be over. I'm waiting and waiting, and now I'm working. I'm working a security job for this uh grocery store called stop and shop and I'm working. I'm the whitest guy in the world, right from Connecticut, and they put me in harford. Harford, connecticut, which is like when, like the latin kings were born. Um, I just didn't fit in. Let's just say that sure so I didn't fit in.
Speaker 2:I'm just like, man, I gotta get a job. I got a good job. So I never hear anything from them. And then so, uh, my parents were friends with this one guy, gary Holmes. Gary was a lieutenant at damberg. Can I get? So we go to this family party and gary mean gary talking. He's like he's like where you working, what are you doing? He's like. He's like why don't you, why don't you apply for the bureau of prisons? I'm like, what the hell is that?
Speaker 2:Right oh it's a the federal prison system. He's like. He's like I'm gonna get you the application, I'm gonna get you get you working okay, so I apply. And back then. Back then it was typewriter or handwritten, I don't know.
Speaker 1:It was about no, and it was about 38 pages by the time you got done.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, I was, you know, and I'm typing this click, click, click, click. So I apply, I get the interview and I'm I mean like now I got like a real nice suit on. I'm like all right, I'm getting this job, I don't care. So I go in the interview and back then the interview panel was like seven people. I was like AW, the department head, um like.
Speaker 1:HR person.
Speaker 2:Captain, a couple other people were in there and you know, and you like you sit there and you're like, oh man, this is gonna be, this is gonna be rough. Just so happens, the the food administrator was a marine. The captain I don't know. You've heard of my cruise wiki.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I don't think I'm maddie, but I know the name.
Speaker 2:Ruzwick, he's the captain. Just to like. The whole group was like like these stellar people in the bureau back then, right.
Speaker 1:So I was like uh-huh.
Speaker 2:You know, I'm like, I'm like at basically sitting at the position of attention in my suit and the and the guy, the guy who was a marine, he's like. He said, glenn, just relax. He's like you don't have to stand out, sit out of attention, just relax. And they ask me no, the, the common questions, and I start in danbury I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I. Great group of guys I was working with, we at the time there's a male facility and most of the most of the inmates were like all like mafia guys, like big time, like white collar guys. Just nothing.
Speaker 1:Yeah Nothing to he's coaching out there. Yeah, nothing too violent nothing like that.
Speaker 2:You know, it's a low security facility, so there's no big deal.
Speaker 2:Plus, I was a cook foreman, so All I saw was all I really saw was the kitchen and Gary was a lieutenant so I already had a, I had like a inside track of hey, if I need something I can go to him, and kind of thing like that. And Gary was like the old head, probably started back in the 70s old head, so the guy you wouldn't screw with. He was always the day watch lieutenant or the shoe lieutenant. So, yeah, good group of people that worked there back then met a lot of great people, still friends with quite a few of them when we talked to each other. So we end up doing a mission change probably probably six to eight months. We go to female right. Oh, lord Says it all. So, out of nowhere, man, it's like a max mass exodus of like the senior staff. Like boom, they're gone.
Speaker 1:I'm getting the hell out of here.
Speaker 2:I have no idea. I have no idea what's to come. So the females show up, and back then they didn't have uniforms. They show up in street clothes, right.
Speaker 1:Oh, wow.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was like, yeah, this probably not good. Yeah, so yeah, no uniforms. And they got. You know, they got their Jordan Ash jeans back then their Z-Cavarici jeans, whatever brand name jeans they had back then, skin tight, like the clothes they shouldn't be wearing right as inmates.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so this is low level females.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah Well. I mean back then you only had I don't know what even is now, but all they had was like a low and a high security female inmate. They didn't really have like a status. It was just like oh, you're just a female inmate, you know what I'm saying. Oh, what'd you do? Oh, I killed my three kids. Oh, you're still a low security inmate. Oh, okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You're not in violent at all because you're a female. Okay, I get that.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:So the females come and it's just like. It's kind of like a shock. There's an absolute shock to everybody, I think, and all of a sudden, man people are getting in trouble. I mean people are having sex with inmates, all kinds of inappropriate stuff going on.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 2:It's kind of like man, you're like kind of like I would see it and I'd be like hell, are you doing? You know a couple of the people that I, back then I cared about. I was like, hey, man, what are you doing? You? Can't be doing that shit.
Speaker 2:You know you cannot say that stuff to the inmates. You know, of course, we went through all this training where you know, hey, now you work with female inmates, you can't. You know they didn't call it sexual harassment training back then. I don't know what they call it. I think it was like dealing with female offenders or something like that. Yeah, it's the whole different world, man, you know, a whole different world. People are getting in trouble all the time. So, yeah, so I'm kind of I was kind of getting sick and tired of it.
Speaker 2:Oh, actually, here's a good story. So this guy, so we're working in a temporary dining hall and kitchen because they're like free redoing our main facility. So I go I was working at night and I leave and I'm like, damn, I forgot my jacket, Let me go. I'm gonna go back and grab my jacket and I go back, go back to the dining hall and, sure enough, man, I walk in, there's this, this fellow cook foreman. He's in between the legs of the same one in me, you know, and I'm like maybe I didn't see that right or something, you know.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Like, hey, I forgot my jacket and I'll grab my jacket. I'm kind of like walking like this Nah got my blinders on La la, la la. I don't wanna see nothing. La la, la. So and there's already people getting in trouble, People getting walked out, rumors everywhere. Grab my jacket and leave. You know, I'm driving home. I'm like no, that wasn't right at all. Something's going on.
Speaker 2:Can't let that slide, no so like the next day, next day I go, when I get back to work, I pulled that guy who's the one of my supervisors name was Al, former Marine. I said hey, al, I got, I got to talk to you. He's like what's up? He's like, hey, when I was working last night, this is what happened. He's like well, that doesn't sound right, I said no.
Speaker 2:So, al doing, what are you supposed to do? He calls he contacts SIS, so, and his name was, oh man, was it Holler? And Bernie, bernie Holler, and I don't know if you ever heard of him, oh yeah no, I know Bernie.
Speaker 1:Absolutely Another good guy I didn't know he was up there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah so yeah, holler and the SIS attendance. So you know, I only had probably at the time, man, I only probably had just over a year, if that. So I was still, I was still a boot, still a rookie, you know, trying to feel my way through this craziness. Now we got female inmates. So Bernie comes up to me during mainline. He was hey, I got to talk to you. Oh shit, like oh, I'm in trouble.
Speaker 2:You know you're in trouble. Back then it was like that, you know, lieutenant of the captain talked to you. You know you're in trouble. So. So Bernie brings me in the back and he asked me what was going on and I was like, well, this is what I saw. And you know, that's that's all I saw. So so then he brings me down to Friswicky's office. I say the same story. He goes all right, me down Sounds good, all right, so go back. You know, go back to your boss. So like probably like a week later I come to work and everyone's out front. They're like hey, man, did you hear what happened? What happened? They walked them out. The name was spade, last name was spade. They walked spade out. I'm like they did for what. You know, in my head I'm like they got them so. So I go walk in the work and I'm like I'm walking the work and Al's at the door. He's like hey, come here. He's like I'm going to tell you exactly what happened. I was like what happened? He's like. He's like I knew that son of a bitch was working last night. I stayed here, I walked out, I told him I was leaving and you know he tricks him. So he walks out.
Speaker 2:And we used to have in the in the part, the dining facility that they were rehabbing. They had a Up up top up on the second floor they had this little store Jerry called like the chemical room, I think it was. Yeah, he's like. He's like man. I knew exactly where he was going. With that in me. I was like what'd you do? He's like. I stuck back in, I Went up to the chemical room and it's hiding a bunch behind a bunch of jugs. I just waited and, sure enough, spade went up there with that inmate. He's like. He's like. He's behind that inmate. Who's you know what he's doing?
Speaker 2:He's you know, I don't want to be right, but I was like he's like, oh yeah I, I stopped him right before it happened. Oh. It was like it was like I was there, a cruise wiki was there and Holler and we're all there at the same time, because they knew something was gonna Right. They caught him red-handed, handed my hand and after that man, I was like I don't think I want to be here. Yeah, I've seen it a hundred times.
Speaker 1:I still don't understand it. It's rough.
Speaker 2:I mean, I'm gonna tell you straight up, some of the inmates that were there were very attractive. You know, they're like sure, colombian inmates, inmates from California, a really good-looking ladies, right, but it's like they're an inmate. We're here to supervise them, making sure they're not getting in trouble doing what they're supposed to do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know a lot of good advantage of that. There's good-looking ladies downtown if you need something to do after work. Yeah, keep it out of work.
Speaker 2:It's on the bar. You know the girl at the end of the bar where they she passed out in a bowl of penis. You know pepper on the shoulder. I'm sure she'll bring you home.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so how'd you go from cook to what'd you go to next officer? So?
Speaker 2:then I went to. So 95 I went. I Went inactivated Florence, colorado, because I was kind of like, well, I need, I know I need to get out of here, I need, I want to. I don't want to say fast-track, but I want to be promoted because I know I can do a little bit. And what I'm doing now. So I went out there for the chance of, you know, doing another, doing another tour somewhere as a cook, foreman, and then maybe go somewhere else as a like an assistant food service administrator. Atx Florence.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I super max. I Was just saying the. For everybody that doesn't know. The super max was what the Bureau of Prisons built to replace Mary in Illinois. So, yeah, that was the newest and greatest. So that was a great activation for you to go be part of. I.
Speaker 2:I really, really liked the food service, the whole thing that I was doing. I really enjoyed it. I was surprised, actually liked it as much as I did Get there and already I'm like, oh, this is great, just a big, giant shoe you know, right, it's a big giant shoe.
Speaker 2:So at the time we didn't have any inmates and Then, probably a few months later, we started getting trickled, trickled in some of the worst. So worse, right. Sure, you know, and I didn't really see what was going on down ranges or anything like that, I was put on a detail to Load the food carts and then I got to drive this thing, this train, around, right little cart, right. I'm like driving down, just drive down. The hall is 75 or 100 something feet. You're being another gate. Get to the gate. The control would open the door. Don't ever touch, don't ever push the button.
Speaker 2:Right they see. You know there's a cameras at every couple feet. They know where you are.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Every control center is an asshole about that, oh yeah.
Speaker 2:It's like they put you on door time out and then they met and you'd be like be sitting and then you go like this and they get on the speaker hey, don't do that. I Understand this game already.
Speaker 2:All right then, uh, my wife was pregnant at at the time and we end up losing. I had two sons that were born and they were both born Very, very in bad, bad condition and they both passed away a couple days after birth. So now my wife is very distressed, very upset, and I was. I Don't know, my feelings are all. I don't know what it, what that was from, but I was a.
Speaker 2:So the warden calls me. He goes hey, what do you want to do? He goes you want to transfer back because I already heard that you, you were thinking about going back to East Coast. I was like, yeah, let me talk to talk to my wife. We decided to go back to to Connecticut because that's where her family is, my family, whatever. So, right, I end up going back to Danbury as a cook for me again and I get there and I'm like you know, I was only, I was only in that. I Think I was in that penitentiary probably six months. Right, I'm like this is not the same. You know it's female inmates again. So I'm just like this is bullshit so.
Speaker 2:Talk to the captain and said, hey, I want to, I want to go. And I talked to Alice that hey, you know, I'm just not fitting in. I I just want to go over to be an officer, so I'm they let me ladder over to an officer and and it was nice because I went right to a GS7, you know, because of the pay scale and everything, so I went right to a seven.
Speaker 2:Sure, yeah. So I kind of like Gary, Gary still working there, Gary's. You know he's taking care of me. You know hooking me up with with Working shoe, working control, learning how to work. You know certain postings like that. Let me work in the armory once a while right. You know, by then I think I was already BPT qualified I end up getting Become a firearms instructor. They send me a firearms instructor. I'm on like disturbance control. I really take a good big liking to all that stuff like the mercy preparedness type stuff yeah.
Speaker 1:I had no idea what the hell I was doing, but I really liked it.
Speaker 2:So you know I'm working whatever. I was working a ton of overtime. Whatever they a a call McDonald, He'll do it, and so like I'll just show the blue here I work. Sure, I'll work six shifts in a row, I don't care, it's just a matter. I was all gung-ho about it and just just really loved it. You know, I think it was like a Well it did. It became work like, became like an escape for me.
Speaker 2:Definitely, definitely, I got really wrapped up in we all the things you have to think about other stuff, yeah, yeah, a lot of things coming in my mind that we're just weren't good. You know, I'm still right stuff. I didn't realize what was going on, like from the Marine Corps and stuff like that, and I think a lot of us do that. Yeah, I end up going to talk to the VA stuff and you're like yeah, you're frickin mess shit like that.
Speaker 2:So I go. You know I go that route a little bit, yeah, but I just kind of just like absorb myself into the whole BOP thing, just try to get everything I could. Went to bus school, went to Well, that was a little bit later but, you know, really got involved in the DCT stuff, became a DCT instructor. You know I'm the arm instructor became a lead DCT instructor. Really loved that. Shit, loved it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I believe that's one of the times where we first met. Whereas lead yeah and I think all that's at Danbury. Yeah, so you moved, yet no, that was all in Danbury.
Speaker 2:So then, okay, you know. But then I was, I got my GS8. They make me acting the tenant a bunch of times. It was like one of those like a, a kink over 90 days, but day 89 You're gonna go back on shift and then tomorrow you're gonna be activities again. I was awesome. No, I didn't care.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's like I was acting for three years.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was getting paid it didn't matter to me, I didn't care, yeah, and you know, and I kind of like I Kind of realized like hey, you know not to sound like big headed, but I really I'm pretty good at this stuff as far as like right, supervising staff and doing, doing what you're supposed to do, everything that that a lieutenants are supposed to do. So I end up Going through doing a couple more schools, really loving that. Got put on a couple special. I don't know if you call him special, but like we got to when they cope, when they closed down the DC jails, mm-hmm, we had to go down there and pick up like a couple loads of female inmates. I got put on that detail which was pretty cool. I thought it was pretty cool.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I had to drive all the way from Connecticut down to DC in this little bluebird boss. It was like hell, it's like Got to do like a whole bunch of like you know, soap flights and you know like all the special stuff. I don't know. I just always got picked, yeah, and then, yeah, so it is good, and I worked with and you know, by then the females were already there for a good few years and they started like an influx of like hiring female staff. Right, we had some really stellar to frickin staff. I tell you, some of them females were just awesome, really great lieutenants. Yeah, just it was a good time. You know, I was in Luton I was still GS8 there and I was like well, and everyone's like you're like hey, mac, you got. You know you should be a captain, you should be an AW and I'm just like I should like you know, thinking in my head I'm still this dumb fricking cook.
Speaker 2:I have no idea what I'm doing, so doing the best I can and I was like all right. So you know things weren't for me, things weren't good at home. You know it was tough, it was tough, definitely tough, but then you know, on the career side things were great, right, but I was always at work. Oh right, oh yeah.
Speaker 1:Over time.
Speaker 2:I'll take it. I'll take it, I'll take it Right, it was like a overtime horror man. It was terrible, terrible and so we're next. So I ended up getting my GS9 to Devon's mass. So I went up to Devon's mass.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Which was definitely different. Medical facility Yep, it's probably open in a good four or five years before I got there, maybe a little bit longer. So it was pretty established already of who was who, the packing order and everything like that. So I get up there, gs9, working my ass off. I had this idea that I could handle commuting back and forth to Connecticut. That didn't work out. You know things. You know I already knew things were pretty bad already. So we end up getting a divorce, very, very, very, very difficult divorce. A lot of bad things happen. Didn't see my kids very much. Yeah, it was tough. It was tough, very, very difficult times during my times at Devon's.
Speaker 1:So you're throwing yourself into the job. Oh yeah, deep deep.
Speaker 2:So I was just working, you know, just kind of like barely even had a place to stay. I was like I had a point there. I was pretty much homeless. I was just as funny. I was asked this guy, pat Pat Kelly, was who's the EDM back then, or EDS or something. He worked out at the training center which is right offside the outside the camp.
Speaker 1:He's kind of an isolated area.
Speaker 2:He's like hey man, he's like I heard you're going through some, some shit. I said, oh yeah, he's like you need a place to stay. I said, yeah, he's like, come see me after work. He gives me the key an extra key to the training center and kind of lived there for a couple months.
Speaker 1:Right, I did, man I slept.
Speaker 2:I would go in there at night. I put the wrestling mats those blue padded mats.
Speaker 2:I put the take my sleeping bag, roll it out, fall asleep, wake up, take a shower, go to work Right, I did that for a few months. A couple of guys that had a hot rack with them. Right, hot rack, you'd go to work, I'd come in, go to sleep in the same bed. I did that too. Sure, just trying to make ends meet, I was freaking broke. Yeah yeah, it was tough.
Speaker 2:And, uh, buying up, end up, you know, being divorced. Uh, doing the best I could there, end up meeting a girl, um, that worked there, you know, end up getting married again, you know, second time. Hey, things will be great, right, yeah, right, still, I mean, and you know, and I hate, I hate sounding like this, but I know the things I was going through, um, still stuff from the military and then things like through that divorce and things from work and things like that. That pressure was just like that. That pressure cooker was. It was on high, definitely high, right, probably. At that point I think it was like two years. I did two years as a nine Great place though. I mean the staff at Devons. I love them, I mean.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:I've been hosting one of my top three, top four uh places I've worked in. Um, everybody's really tight. Um, we all took care of each other. Somebody. If somebody screwed up, somebody would bang in. Guess what We'd be. We'd be waiting for you either at the top of the door or at mainline. You waiting Right, oh, here he comes, you walk by, like hey, you know, like hey, mf, her Guess what Uh-huh, you know just shit like that People would go out. Go out to your cars. They wouldn't have wiper blades anymore.
Speaker 2:You know stuff like that, hey, you know. Back to. I mean, that's just what we did, you know, hey, you screwed up. You're going to pay for it. You know you don't do that. You don't do that to your fellow officers.
Speaker 1:We're uh we're supposed to be a team.
Speaker 2:My feet hurt. I'm not going to work. You know the sky's blue. I'm not going to work today. It's like yeah the sky's blue every day. So um real good place. Um really enjoyed my time there. I met some really good dudes. I was still in touch with a few of them. One of them actually came out to my uh, my retirement last year.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Um. So where'd you go next to get to your 11?
Speaker 2:So I get my 11. I go to Coleman Florida. Oh God, I'm like okay, florida, yeah, this is going to be great Florida. All right, get there, and have you ever worked on down that way, uh did a program review down there a couple of times.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so it's a. It's a very interesting place. We went to one side runs like it's new and one side runs like it's forgotten about.
Speaker 2:Remember that we went down to that for that security assessment too.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, yeah, that team from central office, yeah, so so.
Speaker 2:So I get in there for the first day, man, and all of a sudden I see these guys like they're all like you know, dress really nice. I'm like, okay, man, how are you doing? I'm a glum down. I'm just got here. Yeah, we know you're Okay. I'm like who are you? Oh, I'm a s s tech.
Speaker 2:And they're like not in uniform, and I'm just like, okay, that's kind of different, right, yeah, so then, so these guys, uh, they're talking to you and I'm like, I'm kind of like watching, like yeah, this, this something, something's not right. You're like giving inmates stamps and shit like that.
Speaker 1:Oh lord, yeah Same head stuff.
Speaker 2:And I'm like, yeah, this ain't right. And this, this guy, uh, I mean I don't, I don't care about giving up names. This guy, carmona, comes in, he's a s s lieutenant, he's got a real nice suit on. He's like a big time player, right. So he's giving books and books to stamps away Shit. So then it's me and Carmona and off. It's probably like a week later now. So, yeah, he's like. It's like hey, man, I was like I don't know what's going on here, but y'all giving these inmates all these stamps and shit, what can you tell me what's up? He's like don't worry about it, you know, give me some attitude Like you know, hey, don't, don't question what's going on, right, give me favor when I'm here. Don't do that in front of me. I don't want to see it, because I know you're supposed to, so all. And it's like oh, mcdonald's the scumbag.
Speaker 1:Right and.
Speaker 2:I know what's right and I know what's wrong. Um, so we had I can't remember what, what the captain was, but we ended up getting this other captain who was in involved in quite a few things at the other facility at the medium that came out later on that Like he correctional officer pregnant and all kinds of weird stuff. So he come, they bring them over to the USP Right, and back then I mean, you really didn't know about it, but back then cell phones were huge, huge issue and that's like that was like probably the beginning phases of like the cell phones being brought into institutions. You know, back then I don't, I don't even remember if we hadn't walked through mental detectors. I don't even know if we had to walk through this I don't think we got stuff.
Speaker 2:No, I mean people, probably just bags, probably bringing bags of freaking burner phones.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah.
Speaker 2:I don't know how to. How does it describe it? I don't know if I had, like you know, some people probably think it's a bad reputation, but I always thought it was a good reputation of of hey McDonald's going to do the right thing, regardless if it's an M8 or staff member. I mean, I've had my bumps and bruises with both. But people would kind of like even the inmates would come up hey McDonald, did you hear about that last night? Like no, come see me. Okay, you know, kind of. And they, you know they'd give me this information about inmates with cell phones. I'm like what do you mean, cell phones? You?
Speaker 1:know, I don't think I even had a cell phone, who knows?
Speaker 2:Cell phones were like a big thing back then. Sure, it'd be kind of rich back then.
Speaker 1:You have a cell phone, they were harder to hide. Back then too, they were bigger.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. So, um, yeah, it started coming out. Man like all this dope and all kinds of crazy, I mean man like tons of it. We'd find weed all the time down there I found a couple of times. I found some crack cocaine, some straight cocaine, Lactar heroin.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, and and and, then I, I kind of got this reputation that nobody really. A lot of people respected me, but a lot of people didn't, didn't like me at all.
Speaker 1:With that much stuff that you're finding, you know there's dirty staff. Yeah, that's a dirty staff problem. That's not a visiting room problem, that's not a basketball over the wire problem.
Speaker 2:And you know that's already in my head. Hey, you know something's going on here. You know, and I'm doing what you're supposed to do Right in my memo, sent it to SAS, a center, to the captain, doing everything you're supposed to do. And it's just building and building and building. My first day there I get home and I tell my, I tell my wife she's like how was your first day? I was like I think I made the biggest mistake of my life.
Speaker 1:And from.
Speaker 2:There just got work. So then, um, so I get to, uh, and the captain I mean him didn't get along too good because actually caught him, actually caught him given Red handed, given an M a, like two cell phones. Like I'm walking, I'm walking down the lieutenants corridor, I can hear talking in the captain's office and the doors crack. So he's probably talking to another lieutenant or something Right? So real quick, knock and I, you know, open the door and here he is. Now here's your two cell phones. Like I'm just like whoa.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's like whoa, what did I just see you? Know, and Mike I this time I'm walking around this prison like this yeah, I'm like man, there's something really, really, really bad going on here.
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