76: Part 2 - Best of The Prison Officer - The Unseen Battles of Correctional Integrity - Interview w/Glen MacDonald

In today’s episode, we talk with former BOP Captain Glen MacDonald about doing the right thing, even when it is tough.  Glen walks us through many of the decisions throughout his life and career, where doing the right thing was not popular.  Despite being shunned by staff, loss of promotions, and horrible stress, Glen persevered.

Glen also shares his passion for staying active, including CrossFit and “rucking,” and how completing more than 120 GoRuck events has allowed him to “get comfortable with being uncomfortable.”

This episode is Part 2 of 2, so be sure and listen to Episode 75: Doing What's Right, Even When It's Tough - Interview w/Glen MacDonald - Part 1

Mainline S & C podcast with Glen MacDonald

GORUCK | The Rucking Company

Transcript

Michael: 0:35

In more than 28 years of corrections, I have used or supervised pepper ball hundreds of times. Now, as a master instructor for pepper ball, I teach others about the versatility and effectiveness of the pepper ball system. From cell extractions to disturbances on the wreck yard, pepper ball is the first option in my correctional toolbox. With ranges up to 150 feet and hoppers that can hold 160 rounds, pepper ball is perfect for controlling large crowds or group disturbances on your yard. Pepper ball allows for non-lethal direct impact to control inmates who refuse to comply with lawful orders, and area saturation allows you to achieve buffer zones between groups or use it for area denial to keep inmates away from security equipment and other accessible areas. To learn more about pepper ball, go to wwwpepperballcom or click the link below. In this show's information guide, pepper ball is the safer option. First, this is a rebroadcast of episode 39 of the Prison Officer podcast doing what's right even when it's tough an interview with Glenn McDonald.

Glen: 1:39

Man, there's something really, really, really bad going on here.

Michael: 1:43

Yeah, they got a culture down there that's messed up, oh man, terrible. So how long did you stay at Coleman?

Glen: 1:51

Let me tell you a story about Coleman, though. So, as you said, it was absolutely the dirtiest place as far as like contraband. So I don't know if you have ever heard of the Sharma case or the MA Not right off but, right, a lot of people don't know about that and that's unfortunate because I think that would, if people knew about that case, it would and actually looked at it and they'd actually talk about it in like training or something.

Glen: 2:22

They would really change people's minds about things and it's unfortunate, but so I'm the Imagine that I was the SR1 Lieutenant for probably just about two years, right, imagine that.

Michael: 2:37

You know what time I was on.

Glen: 2:40

That's it, the open. So shoes, shoes, absolute. It's an absolute mess. The shoe is an absolute mess.

Glen: 2:49

The officers down there didn't want to work. Sometimes they wouldn't let you in the door. I mean, it was just nuts, right. Wow, I'd go down there and do what you're supposed to do. You do your rounds, right?

Glen: 3:01

Some of the good officers that were there were like hey, mac, you got to get down here. Man, this place, is this going on? And this going on? I'm like so I'm just, I'm writing this down. At this point, I'm writing stuff down.

Glen: 3:12

It's like all right, you know, if something comes out, I don't want to be that guy like well, mcdonald did it. And then I'll just take my notebook out and say, hey, hold on a second this day here, this day here, you know, whatever you want to call me, you can call me snitch, what the hell you want, I don't give a shit, right? So, cya, cover your ass. And you're damn right, I'm going to jail for nobody, hell, right. And then things were getting really, really weird. So I come in, come in one night and I see a bunch of cars on the outside of the facility and I'm like, oh, this ain't good. Something bad happened. So I go in there and I remember walking in the Lieutenant's Corridor and we had a holding cell at the end of the hallway there and there's a body bag in there.

Glen: 4:00

I'm just like I'm on a stretcher, I'm like oh shit. So I Well, actually before that, before I even get in there hey Mac, you know the control room I was like, hey, mac, you hear what happens? Like no, so like hey, frickin animal killed Delano. I'm like what an animal. Was this the Tories in me, and Delano was the shoe, the shoe orderly, so I'm already walking down. I'm like saying good.

Michael: 4:29

Then I see the body bag. I'm like gosh.

Glen: 4:31

So I get in there and like FBI guys in there there's SIA. I'm already, you know, I'm already. You see the SIA, you see the SIA, you see the SIS staff and you're like, yeah, this is bullshit, something ain't right here.

Michael: 4:47

Something's not right.

Glen: 4:49

So your spidey senses are up, so I, you know, I relieve the lieutenant, I take over and boom, man, like out of the gate. People are like hey, mac, this I'm like listen, I don't want to listen. Stop, don't tell me shit, I don't want to know a damn thing, nothing.

Michael: 5:07

All right.

Glen: 5:09

And I think I got like mandated the next day and the staff that worked that night before were working that day and they're trying to tell me everything. And one of them was Aaron Sharma, who was later was convicted of the part of the homicide. Okay, and this other guy was Mike Kennedy, who was also involved. It's funny how you remember these names right.

Michael: 5:38

So yeah.

Glen: 5:41

So sure enough, man, they're telling me these stories. I'm like whoa. I'm like, hey, listen, if you're not going to put in a memo, I don't want to hear about it.

Michael: 5:49

Yeah.

Glen: 5:50

I don't want to hear about it. You know, and you start, you start getting that that, those spidey senses, that sixth sense, that there's something going on, and why are people talking to you?

Michael: 6:04

Right, you're trying to spread the dirt. What's they're trying to do?

Glen: 6:07

Look around and you're like man, they're not talking to anybody else. This ain't good. So I kind of like push back from that, did my shifts, try to stay quiet, did the best I could. You know, I kept having all these little, these little bombs dropped on me all the time and I was like, yeah, it's okay. I'm just like man at this point. I'm like I'm like fricking paranoid. I'm like writing everything down this happened, this happened, this happened I think I still have some of those notes too.

Glen: 6:39

And then, out of the blue, this guy, james Rabie. He's an FBI agent attached to Coleman. I mean, what facility actually has a FBI agent attached that actually works there? Right, yeah, yeah, I didn't. I didn't know who the hell he was. And he meets me in the parking lot after my shift. He goes, hey, hey, Glenn, hey, what's up? He goes, hey, shows me his badge. I'm like, oh shit, right, I'm, I'm a James Rabie, I'm an FBI agent here at Coleman, and I'm just like, where the hell did you come from? Where do you work at? You know, and I'm, you know, say I need to talk to you. Mike, it was man, it was, it was rough. So I'm talking to him Now he's writing things down. I was paranoid, but I know it was happening. I was being followed. I don't know. I don't know if it was the feds follow me or it was staff follow me. I wasn't sure. Right, you know, and I don't care, this shit happens, you know it does it happens.

Glen: 7:53

So I'm kind of like I mean this ain't good, this ain't good. And by then my wife had the time she leaves the bureau and goes to North Carolina to try and help her father who was pretty ill. And she starts work. She starts to work for the US Attorney's office, right, and she'd call me on my shifts that night. She's like, hey, be careful, like I'm always careful. What do you mean? She's like I can't, I can't tell you anything, but just be really careful. What the fuck are you talking about?

Glen: 8:28

You know, and then pick up your phone and go click, click, click, click, click. You know just weird shit like that, you know maybe I was paranoid, I don't know. I should have took more medication. I'm not sure about something weird. Something weird shit was going on, so, so they ended up pulling me in again and this guy I don't cannot remember his name, he was in the whole case with that whole case with the homicide ends up going to civil rights division of the US Attorney's office.

Michael: 9:04

Okay.

Glen: 9:05

Dude pulls me in with rabies, rabies like by now actually. Rabies pulled me over one night. I'm on my way to work, rabie pulls me over. He goes hey, by now I'm just like, you know, I'm talking shit to this guy. Okay, man, you fucking me like shit, what the fuck you know. And he pulls me over. He goes hey, I got to talk to you. It's like man, can you fucking just like call me or something? Why the fuck you got pulled me over? What the fuck?

Glen: 9:34

Like what's going on here, man? He's like I just got to talk to you tomorrow, all right, fine, what's happening? You know this. This is in the middle of Florida. It's from fricking cow country and you know you're, you're already like, it's already like fricking 10, 30 at night. You're like why pulling me over? You know you're like scary, you got me kind of thing. You know you're waiting for a UFO to come down and pick you up, or some crap.

Glen: 9:58

So I got to talk to him and now this civil rights guy from the DOJ's there, yeah, if I, if I could draw a picture of this guy. You remember the heat miser from that Christmas Carol movie, the heat miser.

Michael: 10:16

Oh yeah.

Glen: 10:17

Red flaming hair. Right, that's just kind of. He's like hmm, mr McDonald, kind of thing right.

Glen: 10:25

And it's like this guy's. You know, he's young too, he's a lot younger than me, and I'm just like man, this guy's really creepy. I'm like. I'm like for one. I was like, let me ask you a question.

Glen: 10:37

I've been in this job, for you know, by then it was maybe 12 years somewhere around there, so it's not like a you know, brand new, not new to the stuff. What's going on? And I've seen some shit already, right? So let me ask you something. What, you know, what? What do you want from me? Why are you talking to me? And it seems like you're only talking to me, like, well, you're the only one who will talk to us. Like, what are you talking about? He's like you, you are the only person that will tell us anything that goes inside that place. Like, well, you got a bigger problem than me and this case, so I don't know what you're going to do. But what do you want so we can be done with this shit? Cause you, you're like, you're like ruining my life at this point. And now you know, you know, I'm never mind my career, my life is just upside down you know, my wife at the time is living in North Carolina.

Glen: 11:38

I'm by myself in Florida Working on all these bullshit shifts. You know it's it's stressful, bro. It's stressful, really, really tough. I think a lot of people something like that, a lot of people, I think it would have broke them, it really would have.

Michael: 11:52

It was that anytime anytime you're under investigation, which has happened, I think all of us at some time, maybe not to that level, but anytime you're under investigation. That's just horrible stress that you don't need in a place that you're already stressed. Yeah, yeah, it was like it was eating me alive.

Glen: 12:10

Just eating me alive and I'm. I ended up talking to this guy, we ended up going to trial. I well, we go to the grand jury first and he's asked him these questions, and and real quick though about animals. So when they're when the DOJ guy and the FBI guy are first interviewing me, they're showing me these pictures right these hand handwritten or hand drawings. You're like like Glenn, do these look familiar? I was like, yeah, that looks familiar, because animal was a big time.

Glen: 12:43

He was a great artist man, the dude like like, but kind of like dude, like like, picasso, the guy I mean the detail in the faces and everything was like extremely incredible how detailed he was. Yeah, he goes. Hey, uh, an animal would ask me all the time hey, can you, can you do me fair and be like real quiet? Now, what's up? I was waiting for him to say, hey, can you bring me a pack of smokes or something like that? Right, hey, can you bring me a picture of a fire truck? Yeah, I can do that. What are you going to do? I just want to draw. Okay, no problem.

Michael: 13:19

Yeah.

Glen: 13:20

What's wrong?

Michael: 13:21

with you.

Glen: 13:21

It made a picture of a fire truck, right, so I you know yeah slip them. Slip in the thing that you know, print off a picture of fire truck or find a magazine. Take a fire.

Michael: 13:30

Yeah, keeping busy.

Glen: 13:32

Yeah, exactly this guy. This guy lived up to his name, to the animal man. What a problem. That dude was up. Yeah, every time, every time we, he was on a three man hold too. So anytime we take out he'd I'd go down there and, you know, escort him to where he's got to go. And he's always like, pulling on me. Pulling on me, like, hey man, you better chill out, you better you're going to get messed up. Right, I'll make down the union and do shit. And he like tried to pull and I was like, where am I slamming against the? You know, he's still cuff slamming against the wall. I said, keep fucking around and see what happens. I'm going to take that baton.

Glen: 14:06

Right, that baton is going to be across your head, right there he I mean, he was on baton watching everything, so Sure Sure. I think he, I think he was just doing that just to see how far I'd go, yeah, so yeah.

Glen: 14:21

So we get, we sit down with these, these two guys, and at this point, man, I'm like should I get an attorney, an attorney, you know, kind of thing Like should I get my own attorney, cause this is, this doesn't even sound right anymore. So they should start showing me these drawings. They're like, hey, uh, like you recognize that picture. I said yeah, I do. He's like did you give, did you give him, um, did you give him pictures to draw from? I said, yeah, of course. Like there's, there's nothing wrong with that. We give books to him, they solve. And you're like, no, no, no, you didn't do anything wrong. He's like, but look at the drawing and I, you know, I just sit there and look and I'm like, oh shit, he's like, yeah, that's you, that's, you know somebody else, and that's somebody else. And like, well, look at what, look at what you're doing. And I'm like like one of the pictures was like, um, I was like standing on like a pile of like rubble and I'm like holding a, uh, like a rifle or a flag or something weird like that, right, wow, and just like. I'm like, yeah, that's, that's kind of weird. And you know, it's still like gives me a chicken skin, my my hair standing up on my arm and I'm like. I was like, yeah, that's kind of weird.

Glen: 15:37

Okay, you know, that guy, that guy idolized you. Like what do you? What are you talking about? He's like oh yeah, we interviewed him a few months ago, but the funny thing is, is he wanted to kill you? There were all them times he would. He would test you and pull the way from you. I said, yeah, you're like he was testing you to see how vulnerable you were to, because he would. He wanted to kill you to earn his bones.

Michael: 16:00

Yeah, by killing, but they didn't tell you that a few months ago when they found it out? Of course not. No, no, why would you do that?

Glen: 16:09

I'm like, okay, that's very weird. So then we end up going to trial. They're questioning me at the grand jury and I had to like explain like how to make hooch and you know, I never made hooch, but I have a good, pretty good idea of how they do it in prison, right, sure, kind of kind of explain that to to the grand jury and the judge and and they're like that happens. I'm like it happens all day long, every single day. You can walk inside a facility right now and you could smell it. I can, I can, like a dog, I can actually track it down and find it. I just smell her and they were just surprised at what, what really went on inside facilities. So then I become, unfortunately, I become like the key witness for the Bureau of Prisons, which was not a, it was not an honor, it was you didn't get a badge.

Glen: 17:01

You didn't get a medal for it, you got a kick in the teeth, that was it. You know that was it. Yeah, it's part of our job to cooperate during investigations, I think it always says it right there in our, our ethics man.

Michael: 17:15

it's, it's a long, it's a tough, tough, tough road to have to deal with Absolutely, and if you don't, you're putting other people's lives in danger, because whatever is going on is going to go on more. And what if animal had? They had decided to kill a staff member instead of an inmate, you know? So, whatever anybody thinks about doing that which I've had to do the same thing in investigations go tell the truth. I don't like it, I don't enjoy it, but it's something that we have to do. The prison has to be a safe place for staff to work, and dirty staff make prisons dangerous places.

Glen: 17:56

Very.

Michael: 17:57

So, whether it's drugs or phones or or whatever's going to stamps, I used to see that. I used to see staff members who would pay inmates in the mental health unit off with crackers to get them to be quiet through their shift. They're giving packages of crackers so they don't do anything on my shift. Well, you're just passing the buck down the road instead of dealing with it and you're making it a more dangerous place to work. So I absolutely I agree with you, and I know what kind of spot that puts you in.

Glen: 18:25

And then so then we, we end up going to trial. And you know a lot, a lot of people don't understand, like when they, if you've ever been through training, like the legal part of training or any type of like supervisory type training in the bureau, they tell you like, hey, if you ever go to court or anything like that, they're going to look at your training records, they're going to bring people up from your pass that trained you Guess what? Oh, you know what I mean, since you were a trainer, like I was a lot. Those signature sheets at the bottom guess what?

Michael: 19:04

Uh-huh.

Glen: 19:05

They miraculously show up after years.

Michael: 19:08

Sure Years of training. They truly do.

Glen: 19:11

We're at we're at court and they're showing me these. They actually had two guys, so I'm so I'm in the like kind of like the break room or wherever they had the witnesses. I was talking to these two guys. They're both Glenco instructors from Fletsy.

Michael: 19:29

Mm-hmm.

Glen: 19:29

Like what are you guys doing here?

Michael: 19:32

And you know, just small talking like oh yeah, they're bringing us up, for you know cuz you?

Glen: 19:36

know we gave the initial use of force class to Sharma, to Aaron Sharma.

Michael: 19:41

Uh-huh.

Glen: 19:43

I'm thinking in my head, I'm like man she went to. She went to like Fletsy, like Probably like 10, 12 years ago problem you know, and now these guys are.

Glen: 19:51

These guys are here Testifying. Oh yes, you know I swear and all this and yeah, I did that class for two hours 12 years ago and I gave it to her kind of things like, right, if they're, if they want you, they're gonna get you. You know, they had their training records where they're signature on it, signature on everything. So it's like, hey, guess what people that does happen, it does.

Michael: 20:16

Oh absolutely.

Glen: 20:17

And now you know, and now everything is computerized, so now it's even tracked. Even more you know. So I end up going through that trial Very overwhelming, because I was kind of kept there For quite a while. I was there for almost the entire week. Right they end up, end up a convict in her being, can't like. They basically made her like the mastermind of Homicides and they, they used, you know, mccullough, john McCullough, john the animal McCullough, that's his. If you know, if you've never where.

Glen: 20:58

I want to read an interesting story. Read that guy's bio, you can. You can Google or John McCullough or John the animal McCullough, and they'll tell you a pretty long story. Yeah in some very interesting facts in there too, so um she ends up getting life in prison Right.

Michael: 21:18

Oh.

Glen: 21:19

Life, yeah. Wow and at the time her, her husband, works there as he's an officer. Oh, kind of weird. You know, this guy, his wife's going through trial or a homicide of him they make, but this guy's still working. Yeah, I was like, uh, probably not a good idea to do that. You wouldn't think so right. And so, uh, I think, um, I think after that, oh, just so what happened was you know my like. I was saying my wife at the time was in North Carolina. I'm just like at my wit's end.

Michael: 22:00

Yeah.

Glen: 22:00

I was applying when she went initially went up to North Carolina, I was applying for unit secretaries to you know captain jobs. You know, whatever I could get sure anywhere in between, I was trying to get it. It just so happens None of them I qualified for. I'm like here I am with 15 years of hero experience and you won't take me as a unit secretary in North Carolina Like yeah. I can probably run circles around you guys pretty easily.

Michael: 22:32

And, at the time, you're qualified if they want you. You're not qualified if they don't want you. Yeah, what a what?

Glen: 22:37

all seen that a bunch of bullshit.

Glen: 22:39

That was, I tell you yeah and at the time, this guy, tracy Tracy John's, was the warden. That guy attempted to destroy my career and he did a pretty good job at it. It definitely put me in a in a holding pattern for quite a while when I was still there. Yeah, I still like all these things going on. I'm involved in this trial. Now my name is like mud. The people that actually respect me, like me, actually do, and the other people don't give a shit about me and they're trying everything. I mean the way I felt they're trying everything. They could Just ruin everything for me. They did a pretty good job for a while. So, so that at the time, the guy that SI a I Know he was kind of involved in some kind of backdoor shit that they were trying to get me on something they're either make, trying to make something up or make something happen to, where I would be involved.

Glen: 23:39

So all these, all these weird things would were happening, because I was that common for almost five years, so that's a that's a long time and that and I was at the USP the entire time, except for the last six months.

Glen: 23:50

I'll tell you about that. But, um, all these weird things were happening, all these incidents on my shift were happening, and this one of me Comes up to me. He's like hey, mcdonald's. He's like I want you to, I want you to know we're making sure you're gonna be alright, but you gotta be careful. It's like you know, you're hearing the inmates say that shit, to this day, that that was an FBI agent inside that prison. Definitely and probably, I Want to say, is a couple weeks later that and it was gone, right. It's like, hmm, yeah, the F, the SIA, brings me over Over there and the admin building, which is already creepy enough, so I'll get over there.

Glen: 24:37

And he's questioning me about some use of force incident. I'm like no, I didn't, it didn't, it didn't happen like that. Blah, blah, blah, blah as well. Just want to let you know you're an investigation for excessive use of force. Okay, I said bring it, bring it right, because I know, and you know at that time, mike, I didn't care, I was like you know, you're full of shit, you're a fucking liar. You know, f you, f? You. I didn't care, what are you gonna do? Right, army, send me to Coleman. Okay, what else could go wrong? Right? So then I Kind of like set this dude up Because I know he's full of shit.

Glen: 25:19

So we're in a memo about the incident. I Go over there after my shift, I slide it under the door. Oh, actually, before I knew he wasn't there. I knew he wasn't there that day. I go over there. I said, hey, how you doing? Hey, can you mind time stamping this? She's like sure, no problem, time stamps it. So I have this timestamp saying when I turned in this memo, very, got it put in my pocket, come back later. And I, you know, I gave her a copy, I'll come back later. I slipped one another one. Slip another one under the door Two weeks later. Hey, mcdonald, I talked to you, all right.

Glen: 26:03

By now I'm walking around with a handy-dandy little Briefcase place type of thing with all my documents. That's how well, that's how bad it got. All right, I mean, I had six-part folders. Would like this incident happened this way. This, you know, this is. I mean everything, timelines, everything. Wow crazy. Oh bro, it was rough. So I mean I get over there and he's questioning me.

Glen: 26:32

He goes well, you never reported the incident. Hold on hold on a second. I said this, you talking about this. He's like where'd you get that? I said no. I said see this, see this timestamp on here. When I turned it in to your office and he was like God damn McDonald, you fucking set me up. I said you hear a piece of shit, that's it, you hear a piece of shit. I said so what else you got? What else you got from me? Because you know you're not gonna get me. You know you're not gonna get me. At the same time I'm trying to get out of there. I'm trying everything. I met ART at training and there's like 300, 400 people at every ART for Coleman. It's just a huge place.

Glen: 27:19

There's a ton of people there I'm still. Well, I got fired from DCT, imagine that. So I was still a firearms instructor, still a DCT instructor, things like that, but it wasn't coming around like it used to, where I could train all the time. Right, I'm talking to this guy, captain Smith from the medium. He just got there, so he's doing a class new guy, probably doesn't know who's, who probably heard my name, but he gets done with his class and I go outside with him. I said, hey, cap, so you gotta do me a favor, man, you got many. He's like, yeah, he goes. I said, hey, you gotta save my life. Like what are you talking about? Said you gotta get me the hell out of that USP. I was like I'll tell you about it later, but I can't tell you about it now. I mean you gotta save me, man, just get me the hell out of there. I need a break, right. So he got.

Glen: 28:16

He ended up getting me over to the medium. And it's weird how well, I mean Coleman's big but it's still small. And if you're stuck in that USP world, you're just stuck. And I get over to the medium, some great, great group of lieutenants, and they're like hell, no, I'm not going to that USP. Hell, no, I get over there. I'm just like I get along with everybody man, Just some great, great dudes. I mean there's some good dudes at the, in the lieutenants office at Coleman too, some really bad dudes too. So I get over there. I finally I'm on vacation in North Carolina and the warden called me. She's like I got two choices for you. She's got can be a correctional officer, a butler, or you can be a cook foreman. I'm like oh, that's pretty easy, I'll be a cook foreman.

Michael: 29:13

F custody Sure.

Glen: 29:15

I'm done. I know, I know, with cook foreman I'll be skating, I'll have a good time. 15 years in the bureau, no problem. So I get, I get that job. I boom, immediately transfer. It's quick as possible, right? So I get up there and I get up there and nobody knows who I am. I like to show up out of the blue and right. Guess who the warden is? Tracy Johns, oh Lord, yeah. So so I show up. You know, I'm 15 years, I was by then. I was probably a lieutenant, probably seven years somewhere around there, gs11 lieutenant, coming from a really, really violent USP. Sure, you know, I got a couple of nicks and a new Zamy, but I'm gonna go. I'm like, all right, you know, hit the reset button, I'm gonna, I'm gonna do the good, I'm gonna do good, I'm gonna get back on track. So they, they assigned me to the low at butner. I'm in there. My first day had my nice, my nice light blue shirt on my black or my blue pants you know the old nasty uniforms, got my tie on.

Glen: 30:30

I was all AJ squared away, right so yeah, yeah. So I'm standing mainline and talking to a few people. Nope, mike, nobody knows who I am. Nobody knows. Yeah, they know I was a lieutenant and they were like oh, when'd you start? I started, no, not too long ago. I wouldn't. I wasn't really like in the mood to really tell anybody why not why I'm there. But you know that I've been around forever.

Glen: 30:56

And you know, all of a sudden I see Tracy John standing mainline and you know, in the front there's a lot in the front of the dining hall. It's just a bunch of big windows so you could see clearly out to the compound. He's standing out there, he looks at me. He's like he shakes his head. You could see him just mothin' the words. I'm like, yeah, like I got you, buddy, I got you, don't you worry. So so you know I'm, you know seasoned guy, the administration or the food service administrator. We all got along really great. Always hit me up with questions about security and this and that. So things are going really well. I see they post, because at the time I want to say they're opening the new medium at Butler and I think for some odd reason they needed two other captains, right. So so I put in, I put in my captain packet, right, I bequeue, and everyone's like who's this McDonald guy? Who's this McDonald guy?

Michael: 32:05

Nobody knows who. The hell, all the lieutenants.

Glen: 32:07

Like one lieutenant figured out who he was. He goes how long you been in the bureau. I said 16 years. Now, when were you before this, Coleman, What'd you do? I was a lieutenant when I said USP one. Hmm. Like now I figured you'd out oh, you've been hiding. You've been hiding really good. I was like, oh, it's what I gotta do, man, I gotta protect myself.

Michael: 32:35

Right, like he's like, don't worry.

Glen: 32:36

I already heard. I heard what happened down there. I was like, okay, so what do you got? What do you got to say to me now? I ain't got nothing to say. He's like dude man. I ain't got nothing bad to say. He named off a couple of names I knew. I was like, yeah, good dude, good dude. So a BQ. The same lieutenant comes up to me like probably like a month later. He's like hey, man, you know you BQ'd for that job, right? I was like I know. He's like Captain Smith wants to talk to you. Okay, I go see the captain. He's like it's a McDonald, you're a cook for me. How'd you BQ for a captain? I said I was like Captain, how long you been in the bureau? I was like 10 years or something like that. I was like, oh, that's nice. I was like where'd you work before here? He's like I've been here at Butner the whole time. I said, okay, I got three of the joints under my belt already.

Glen: 33:26

And he's like what I was like, yeah, I used to be Lieutenant Coleman and this and that Coleman or a Lieutenant here and I worked here and worked there. He's like, oh man, he's like that's some good credentials, but I don't know if we're gonna get this job going from a cook for him and to a captain. I doubt it. And like a couple, like once the I mean you know how the promotion thing goes and like that Lieutenant comes up to me. He's like, hey, man, he's like John said you ain't got shit coming. You know, I tried to go back to a Lieutenant. I just had nothing coming to me which was understandable, it didn't really bother me. So then I well, I was still at Butner, it's got.

Glen: 34:13

Hank Simmons was my administrator and I said, hey, hank, I gotta get back in the game. Man, I just can't do this anymore. He goes what do you wanna do? I was like I wanna go somewhere. I said I wanna go to the worst place in the Bureau. I was like what is the worst place in the Bureau? He's like as far as why, I said violence, he's probably Pollock. He's like oh, they just had a homicide, you know couple of weeks ago or whatever. And like I wanna be a Lieutenant. He's like all right, let me make some calls. You know, I apply and I get picked up for Pollock, which I absolutely love. Pollock, pollock was man. It was awesome, just awesome.

Michael: 34:53

Right.

Glen: 34:55

From like day one like I get down there. My wife got ended up. She ended up getting picked up as a she unit secretary maybe, so she left the the US Attorney's Office, got back in the Bureau and we both went down to first day there. It's like three body alarms spraying image with gas. I was like this is I love it. I love it. I'm back back in the game, right. When my ass off. It's like fricking boiling ass hot.

Michael: 35:26

Oh yeah, we are.

Glen: 35:28

Having a good time meet a bunch of great, great, great great guys and gals. Yeah, things, things really clicked down there. Man Really clicked and yeah.

Glen: 35:40

Donnie Cartrett shows up, who is one of my mentors from back in the day. So it's like the quarter was up and If you don't know anything about USP Pollock, you can look it up and you find a lot of bad things happen there, a lot of violence towards staff, animates. I end up getting put at the medium as like even watch ops or something like that. And Donnie just got there and Donnie was an officer at Danbury, I think just before I started, and he was a real, real hard charging guy and I'm over there at the meeting and he goes, the doors open in the captain's office and the other captain's in there and he goes. He goes hey, mcdonald, come here.

Glen: 36:29

He's like he's very forceful right, but he's doing it in a kind of a way to where you think he's like super aggressive or he's like a dick to you. But he's not. He's just he's like testing you, kind of right.

Glen: 36:42

Everything is always like a selection, like let me see what you got, kind of thing. So I go in there and it's like yes, yes, captain, he goes. Hey, what are you doing over here? At the medium it's my son. He's like as of tomorrow, you're going over to USP, I need my compound back. I look at the other captain he goes in him and John, john gradiska, where the captain's and John and he worked at Beaumont together, so they had a lot of time together too. He goes.

Glen: 37:16

You heard what the captain says tomorrow you working at the USP. I was like I looked at Cartreta said so what do you mean? Take your compound back. He goes you know exactly what a frickin mean. But just make it fucking happen Ten four. So next day I go, I go back over to USP and I seen him before the shift started and I was on the evening watch and my activities was a leaf it's Gerald, which is an awesome dude. Unfortunately, he left the bureau and so I told him that hey, man, cartreta wants the compound back. Guess what? We're going to take it back. And I mean right, some crazy, crazy crap was going on. So this is what we're going to do. We're going to slow down mainline. We're going to control it Everything, because I mean like they'd let these inmates out of the place or just go mad. It was like a war.

Glen: 38:10

So all the time you know people, people like oh you're foolish. Like no, we'd open the doors of place to go crazy.

Michael: 38:19

Yeah, like the flow things down.

Glen: 38:20

Yeah, like the first move and me not knowing Cartreta was still there, um, like the first night and we let this one unit out. This dude comes out, f you, f you and all this talking, all this crazy trash to us and it was like a dog pile. I mean, there's probably like six of us. We just this guy's like coming running, like running at us, you know, like this pump, and it's like all right, come on, let's go.

Glen: 38:46

When we just slap, smash them and we're like oh right, put them in cups, drag them off and we're like shut the compound down and all the inmates are like oh shit, like oh, it's on now. So I remember we get, we get that dude down into uh, and it was hot man. It was like you know, luke, louisiana, it's like it's just another level of hot, the heat yes.

Michael: 39:11

Absolutely.

Glen: 39:11

I mean you just covered in dirt because of the compound. Like all the grass is dead. It's like dirt everywhere and we're like.

Michael: 39:19

We're like wrestling this dude down.

Glen: 39:20

He's got by now. He's got basically mud all over him because he's sweating so much. We get him down the shoe and we're like. He's like man he's like how'd?

Glen: 39:29

you guys. You know now he's crying right. He's like why'd you guys treat me so bad? Why'd you treat me so bad? It's like you come out fucking shit to us. Guess what we're going to do. We're going to take care of you, I said. I said matter of fact, spread the word. Is this going to be a new world in here? Yeah, man, we kind of like changed that culture of how we're running and slowing things down and making sure it's always secured and Carl Trezz watching the whole time. He's probably up front in that, so that's off watching on the cameras and um yeah, so I ended up.

Glen: 40:00

um, I mean, dude, I got a thousand stories about Pollock worked a lot with this. So when did the fitness?

Michael: 40:05

Because that's definitely something I want to get into with you when did uh I know you do the rucks, I know you're big into uh, uh, health and fitness and that's kind of what you're doing in retirement Uh, when did that come into play? Was that when you were having some of the problems and you needed that to? Um, you know bring about.

Glen: 40:28

Or when I was, um, uh, when I was in Danbury, uh, one of the things that VA did was this pilot program of uh, there, uh, there's like therapy through fitness or something like that. You know, making us, making us do all these like. I remember this one time we were like riding this bike, riding as hard as right, the guy's like all right, you're going to ride as hard as you can for two minutes.

Glen: 40:56

Okay, Right in the bike, I'm like right, and then he'd ask you a bunch of questions, okay, this is kind of right. So I was like then, you know, I was always kind of like into like working out stuff like that, um, and then I just honestly, man, I blew up like a freaking balloon. The stress, um, everything that I was going through.

Michael: 41:19

I blew up like I mean right.

Glen: 41:22

That. That right, I was disgusting, I hated it, hated myself. So I ended up, uh, when I got to Pollock. I got to Pollock I was really, really, super heavy, really out of shape. But it was funny, like even even when I was really out of shape, I'd work out all the time still thinking I was doing really really well Right.

Glen: 41:44

But, in my mind I was still like big giant, fatty, right, and even even back then, before rocking was cool, I was. I was rocking all the time. I'd people would see me out and out on the trails and and, uh, devin's Mass, I'd have a big pack on, I'd be snowshoeing around around base and all kinds of like people are like what the hell are you doing? And I just I'm having fun. You know just, you know to me it just feels good. You know, just to get that, get that energy out. You know, breaking a sweat and doing something very, very difficult for me was it was it felt great. You know it really did. It felt good, it helped me.

Michael: 42:24

And that's went from like a personal thing to. Is it a competition now that you go to, or is it more of just a group activity? Cause I ask you about the patches behind you oh so if you see all these here, these are.

Glen: 42:40

These are all the events I've done. Well, some of them I got. I don't have all my patches up there. I probably got about another, probably 20 more somewhere. It's stacked up somewhere, kind of lost track. I've done over like a hundred and probably over 120. Now I can't really remember how many.

Michael: 43:01

I just don't Well tell us what a ruck is. So is it? Is it just a group, or is there a competition to it? Is there levels, or I haven't been part of one. So well, ruck is actually just a backpack.

Glen: 43:15

It goes back to right, it goes back to Legionnaires of when they'd have to carry equipment, you know, over many, many miles, carrying all that equipment to go to war and things like that. And I guess the military took that concept of rucking, as you know, just carrying a bunch of weight. And then in the Marine Corps you know the job I had in the Marine Corps, even as a cook, guess what? Well, we called it in the Marine Corps. Imagine that we called it humping. We'd have to hump our gear Right. So we'd go on these humps all the time with all this fricking equipment. And you know it, man, it would break you off, it'd break you in half.

Glen: 43:54

You're like, oh, it hurt. So I ended up, you know, kind of like when I got out of the Marine Corps. It'd be like you know. I remember how good that felt. You know that pain, the enjoyment of it and just being outside I bought a backpack or found a military backpack or something and start rucking. I just throw a bunch of crap in there, you know, start rucking around but I was like, oh, this still feels good, it hurts but it still feels good. And then I just kind of kept it. And then when I was, when I was in Pollack, I met a couple of guys. Well, I met this one dude, rory Perry. He was an officer and at the time I was like really big into helping veterans and part of this veterans group called Team Red, white and Blue, which they help veterans through physical activity to help them get back into society, things like that.

Glen: 44:57

And I was like man, this is like a no brainer.

Michael: 45:01

Sure.

Glen: 45:02

So I met Rory and Rory's like a he's a combat veteran from the Battle of Fallujah, which is like one of the worst battles the Marine Corps ever had in Iraq. So we talk all the time and I really, man, I was like, I was like I love that dude, like freaking loving me, just an awesome dude had a lot of trouble, a lot of PTSD issues, things like that, and I'd do my best to help him out the best I could. Really struggled with a lot of things.

Glen: 45:38

So I said hey man, let's do something really hard. He's like all right, let's do it. And Rory's jacked. He's like it's a sort guy freaking jacked, right, I was a never sort guy, right I was a PCT fatty.

Glen: 45:53

So I was worried about pizza and stuff like that, and this guy was just like like in cinder blocks. So so we start rucking. I'm like hey, I'm like hey, man, let's you know. And at the time I think I did like, I think I did like a tough mutter and like a Spartan race or something. I was like wow that was really hard. I was so hard.

Glen: 46:15

It's like so I always look at what's the next hardest thing. And then I found this company called go ruck. So it's a company built by this guy who's a special forces army guy and he would, he, he just he'd make these backpacks Right. And then it went to a backpack challenge, where you take that rock and you put, depending on what your weight was, you put a certain amount of weight in there and you show up in the cadre which would be like him or a few other people because at the time it was so small, it was just a small, small group of people, underground type of thing and they would show up and all these guys were like special operations guys, like maybe seals, special forces, that's time, marine recon, and these guys would just put you through absolute fricking hell and you'd have to wear the backpack.

Michael: 47:15

Right.

Glen: 47:15

Ding, ding, ding this is like winter for me.

Glen: 47:18

So we find an. We find an event in New Orleans, downtown New Orleans, on, I want to say, the day before Halloween. So basically it's like one of my anniversaries of like. I can't remember how many years I've been doing it now, like 11 years, right. Since then I just like you know, I just love it, man. It's just it's so painful. Yeah, I mean I'm 53 now and it really takes, it takes a toll on me. I don't big time. So I really stayed the best I could. I stayed and really tried to stay in the best shape I could, even, you know, aging, as I was still working full time. Thank you, and I would always. You know I'd find an event wherever, somewhere, and that you know when our first start is the they'd have Within a year. They'd have probably like three, four hundred events throughout the country. I'd find the closest one to me and a bit.

Glen: 48:19

It was really big, pretty popular To go to New Orleans because everybody loves New Orleans when I was working at Pollack you know, and they'd had events there all the time. So I every event I'd try to go and I would go at the time.

Michael: 48:34

Give you something outside of work to oh yeah. Give you something outside of work to look forward to and train for you know, and that's. I did the same thing for a long time with the, the, the heavy Games, and Scottish Highland games. Yeah, so, and it was just something I could think about. It work to get all my get that off my mind.

Glen: 48:54

So that was working the same way for you and I see a lot of staff now I'm like, especially when I left and they were just like they don't do anything like Right, oh, what'd you guys do last night? Oh, I played. I played video games all night. What do you mean Like?

Michael: 49:11

I'm in here me.

Glen: 49:12

You know you're sitting in front of a computer all day, dude, you gotta get outside and do something right and then. So then I got. I got into CrossFit. Pretty big Um Pollock Started doing that. I love that. I love doing that really, really hard stuff, and I was. I was that guy like, hey, we're gonna do this really hard workout, what they call a hero. Hero wad work out of the day. So it's designed To Amoralize a fallen soldier or a Marine or anybody so and these Never done a hero wad. They will kick your ass and they're they're, they're built to be very, very difficult. So I'd be that guy during the hero wad that would wear a gas mask, something a little bit stupider, or a helmet.

Michael: 50:08

You know something like that make it just a little tougher and and people are like man, you're freaking badass and I am. I'm like I'm slow.

Glen: 50:16

Yeah, I'm terrible. I just kept doing, you know, just kept doing those hard things and I really, really, really enjoyed them. Sometimes, man, I would, man, I look back at some of the events I've done and they were absolutely the hardest things ever, even harder than the marine. Yeah so, but it's just to me, it's just an outlet, you know, and a couple places I the. After Pollock I went to Mississippi as a deputy captain.

Glen: 50:47

I continued it there and continued my fitness Stuff there, still still doing CrossFit, still doing go-rock events. I gave up on Spartan crap and tough mutter is who the hell must be electrocuted. I mean, if you're looking, if you're looking to do something the hardest thing you probably, will probably ever do for fitness, and go do a go-rock event, go, go try one. Okay and you will get checked quickly. I mean, I've been into events where people don't last 20 minutes and they have to quit. Yeah they just either not. This has become.

Michael: 51:31

This has become something that's been since you've retired. I know you're into this strength and conditioning. You've started a podcast, so tell us a little bit about what you're doing now. I know you ended up in Chicago and that was. We talked about that during the last one, but what are you doing now with retirement and Strength and conditioning and what can you tell the people out there? I mean, how important it is it to to have that physical Outlet?

Glen: 51:59

well for me, like when I Still continue to do CrossFit and go-rock events a lot of training time out on my on my own for some of these events. And then then I was like you know what? I need to do something with this the best I can. And and going in and out of Chicago, I took the train in and out of work every day. So I've listened to different podcasts. I listened to, like Jaco cleared a hot podcast, some of the I don't know if some of the other ones are around anymore and you know that stuff just like resonated with me, really motivated me To you know, one of the best things is like get after it, like yeah, like you need to get after it, even as hard as our job is, physically and mentally.

Glen: 52:51

I mean, you see it, mike. I mean you see people just fall in apartment. They're like they're yeah, not saying I'm some fitness guru, but I mean to have not have that outlet of Working out and pushing yourself past your limit. What's gonna happen when? When Mike is getting stabbed or Mike's getting beat up, something bad's happening? What are you gonna do? Are you gonna just like power in the corner or run the other way, or are you gonna do the message?

Glen: 53:19

and get over there and say try to save Mike's life, or what, if you sure? I had an incident where we had to give a staff member CPR Because you had a major heart attack inside the institution. People were just falling out because they couldn't handle Like giving the guy CPR. And this is one of your fellas, yeah.

Michael: 53:39

I mean, you know, it's one of the first things you probably learned. You see that on TV and you know the doctors and nurses run in. They go pump, pump, pump. Yeah, given somebody CPR and doing it for even five minutes, but sometimes as long as 20 or 30, is an absolute. Kick your butt, yeah, absolutely. You know I'd be prepared for that stuff.

Glen: 54:00

I remember Running across a compound on Pollack you know it's thousand degrees Running across an incident and Pollack was pretty good. There's two rec yards but it's a big one in its office and closest housing unit running across here and Going as fast as you can because you can hear a staff member kind of their voice is elevated inside a unit or you know something bad's going on. You're running across there. Your adrenaline is already pumping like crazy. You're like what am I gonna walk into? And you get in there and you're already whooped. That's what. You're just another liability To me. Yeah, absolutely, you are definitely a liability, and If you're not ready for something like that, it's something that Is really unfortunate, because you got I mean, people just don't. I think they take it for granted like I'll be alright. No, you won't. And yeah, yeah if they're not doing.

Michael: 54:55

It sounds like you've. It sounds like one of the things you've done, and I read an article not too long ago about being comfortable, being uncomfortable, very and you kind of like making yourself Uncomfortable so you're comfortable when it comes time. Yeah, oh yeah.

Glen: 55:10

Yeah. So so riding back and forth from Chicago you know, listen to podcasts I was like you know what? You never hear anything about Correctional staff. From what I remember before I, before I retired you are already retired. I don't know if we're talking like an email, maybe yours and you, you know You're like hey, I'm gonna start a podcast. I'm like that's cool, no. And then I remember I don't know if you sent it to me or I found it and I listened to like your first or second one. I was like man, that's a really freaking good idea. And you know, you kind of talk about more like the policy of it, the training do's and don'ts of of that, and I try to I think my podcast I Try to more talk about the stories and what people have gone through you know and let them talk.

Glen: 56:03

Let them talk about it because I know for myself it's really helped me as far as like getting the things that you know. Like that story about Coleman, I mean, I sure still affects me to this day. It does.

Michael: 56:17

Oh, I'm sure it does.

Glen: 56:18

Absolutely Shit, that doesn't bother you like, yeah, it does. You know, some bad things happen there, Bad things you know. Yeah you know, see, you see some of your friends that got hurt through the years, or Not just physically but mentally, you know. I mean, like I retired, it's today's 30. Hey, today's my one-year anniversary. Imagine that. So today's my one-year anniversary.

Glen: 56:44

Congratulations, thank you. And our chief psychologist from Chicago Great guy, he's a psychologist. The guy has a hard time Just talking about what happened. Like I had dinner, I had lunch with him I'm probably two or three months ago. Now I'm like dude, where have you been, man? Because me and him were really we're really, we're really tight and we really worked well together. He's like he's like I just I can't do it, I can't talk about it, I can't. You know, I wasn't even bothering him about being on the podcast or anything like that. He's like I Just can't, I can't deal with it, I can't adjust back to their life. And he's a chief psychologist. Yeah, like what do you mean? Yeah, if you're having trouble, what's wrong with us?

Michael: 57:33

Yeah, no, it changes you, it absolutely does, and sometimes there is no going back. You know we make the best out of it and but we leave prison a changed person. You know you're not gonna, you're not gonna be the person you were when you first walked into it. So Well, thank you, glenn. I appreciate you coming on here. Can you, can you tell us where they can contact you or find your podcast?

Glen: 57:58

Hey. So my podcast you can look it up on either Facebook or Instagram. It's under mainline strength and conditioning podcast and it's on also have a YouTube channel that has all my my current well, all my my interviews right now. So go ahead and take a look at it. I know, let me know if you, if you ever want to talk to me about another Podcast, or if any any of the people you've interviewed I know you've talked to quite a few people. I would love to, you know, tell them how I feel about things I just love, just feels good to talk about it.

Michael: 58:35

So yeah, it's good for us. I think it's good for the people that are listening, because they get to understand. You know, you're not the first person who's ever dealt with some of that stuff. You did it at Coleman. There's a lot of staff out there who've had to make those decisions. So I think when we talk about this and when we bring it up on these podcasts, it makes it easier for everybody. So I thank you for that. I thank you for sharing your stories and We'll talk at you soon. Oh, you got something go ahead.

Glen: 59:03

So if anybody, if anyone who's a current employee or you know, even if you're retired, if you, you can look me up. And if you you're having trouble with your like fitness and you want to get back in shape or you want to get ready for Sort or DCT or anything like that, let me know and we can talk off line and I can build you a program for a very minimal fee, because I'm not looking to make any money. I'm just trying to help people of getting you back in shape, so I know it's a great resource.

Michael: 59:34

I appreciate that.

Glen: 59:36

Just let me know if you need. That's great, okay, I.

Michael: 59:40

I appreciate it. We'll talk again soon, thank you.

Glen: 59:42

I.

Michael: 59:43

Would like to take a minute to thank one of our sponsors that make the prison officer podcast possible. Omni RTLS is a company that I've been working with for the last year. I am proud to be part of this team of correctional professionals who have developed the best real-time Locating system on the market today. With Omni's real-time location technology, you automatically know the accurate locations and interactions of all inmates, staff and assets anywhere in your correctional facility, and you have this information in real time. Omni is cutting-edge software for today's jails and prisons. It is the only way to monitor every square inch of your facility while still being pre-accompliant. Go to www. Omni RTLS for more information and to make your facility safer today. That's www. Omni rtlscom.