79: The Best of The Prison Officer - Strangeways - A Prison Officer's Story - Interview w/Neil "Sam" Samworth

Walking the corridors of HMP Manchester, former Prison Officer and author Neil Samworth—known as Sam—witnessed the stark realities of prison life, a tale he recounts with raw honesty in "Strange Ways: A Prison Officer's Story." Join us as we step into Sam's world, where the line between guard and guarded blurs, and where humanity faces its toughest tests. Our conversation traverses the emotional terrain of a profession that demands resilience in the face of daily confrontations with society's darkest elements.

We talk about it the good, the bad, and the ugly, including his personal struggle with PTSD.

Real Porridge with Sam Samworth https://www.youtube.com/c/RealPorridgePodcast

Strangeways: A Prison Officers Story - Sam Samworth

Strangeways Unlocked: The Shocking Truth about Life Behind Bars - Sam Samworth

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:36

Good morning and welcome back to the Prison Officer Podcast. I say good morning because I'm up a little early to talk with a special guest that is many time zones away from me. My guest today is Neil Samworth also goes by Sam. He's a former UK prison officer and the author of Strange Ways, a prison officer's story. Neil spent 11 years working as a prison officer at HMP Manchester, a prison also known as Strange Ways. I really appreciate Sam coming on the Prison Officer Podcast to share his story and his experience. So welcome Sam. Good morning or good afternoon.

Speaker 2: 1:13

Yeah, good afternoon.

Speaker 1: 1:13

How do, as we say in Yorkshire, you, you're more than welcome, more than welcome yeah, I I'm I'm so excited to have you on here. I've I read your book strange ways and it really connected with me quite a bit. I also worked many years in a mental health unit for the federal bureau of prisons and the some of the situations, some of the inmates that you describe in there I just put different names on the guys, but it's the same behavior, it's the same guys, it's the same problems. So I really connected with that and I'm going to tell you straight up I've read probably every correctional officer book anybody that's ever written one, and yours is the best.

Speaker 1: 1:57

Yeah, yours is the most honest ever written one. And yours is the best. Yeah, yours is the most honest. Um, and it's just. You painted a picture of what it's like for a lot of us inside to work and, uh, I appreciate that. But that was the reason I reached out and wanted to get you on this podcast, because it is such a a good book, and thank you for that.

Speaker 2: 2:16

That's very kind, I I think when, you know, when I thought about the book, um, it was a bit of a dream. Uh, you know, it sort of comes together putting something you can send out to agents because in in this country really you need an agent or whatever to get a publishing deal. And the more it became real like when I started doing the book, it made me very, very nervous because, you know, I've always been very honest, very forthright. I've got in trouble in my life. You know, I can't keep me gob shut. It don't matter who I'm talking to. If I think I'm right or somebody else is wrong, then I'm going to say my bit.

Speaker 2: 3:02

But the final draft before the book come out, when I read it, you know, uh, oh yeah, we're worried about what people are going to say because I tried to make it as honest and truthful as possible. You know, I sort of put myself out there the mental health side of it and things and you know I did feel vulnerable, as it were. Um, but it was well received. The people I was most worried, worried about their opinions, and that was probably my close friends in the prison service, because I didn't know how to be received. But you know I was worrying for nothing, so I appreciate that I really do.

Speaker 1: 3:43

Oh, that's great let me give the audience a little taste.

Speaker 1: 3:46

I'm going to read from the book here and uh just kind of give them a taste of it and then we'll talk some more. So he was twisted I'll give that quite definitely a fire starter too and like me, he was the type who'd make a career out of prison. Only in his case, on the wrong side of the bars. Riley was his name, self-harming his game, which brought him more grief than anyone else. He'd had a hard life and it showed A serial arsonist who would never be free. He was destined for a high security hospital. This creature and a half kind of golem from lord of the rings, only not as good looking. He was the kind of prisoner it was easy to hate and sort. That means constant mither, which I had to look up, and means minding thomas. Riley had a history with cell fires, and back in the day he'd done himself serious harm. He tried to make his tracky bottoms. He tied his tracky bottoms at his ankles, filled the legs with sugar and set them alight. Now sugar melts, of course, and so did the calf muscles pretty much. He couldn't walk for ages and it all added to his horrific experience. He didn't so much as talk as he did squawk, and at one time he must have been somebody's son, somebody's child been taken to a park in that. Yet here he was a stunted fucking thing.

Speaker 1: 5:04

Cell fires are a hazard in every prison. In strange way included, the likeliest places are segregation units, where the most disruptive inmates are housed, though the forensic and hospital wings have their share. I'd worked health care for a while now and developed an intuition around the mentally ill prisoners and with us officers and nursing staff. This made up the place. The majority of the cell burners didn't intend to go up and smoke and it was about manipulation. They wanted to cause us as much trouble as they possibly could.

Speaker 1: 5:36

I was on nights and I sensed something was up with Riley. He seemed weirder than usual, strangely possessed, so I laid a hose pipe along the floor to his cell just in case. As usual on health care at night, the lights were out and he had his music on. He'd stay up to all hours. After a while he got to thinking on it a bit and didn't care for the song. Or I got to thinking about it for a bit and I didn't care for his song choice Firestarter by the Prodigy. It was blaring out and I'm more of a Def Leppard fan. I looked through the little glass hatch on his door and, sure enough, there he was, facing the windows off on one, dancing like Keith Flint, lead singer from Prodigy Boom.

Speaker 1: 6:18

I'm the trouble starter, punkin, instigator. Now he's really into this, this lad. He's got a lighter in one hand and while I'm watching he bends down and gives it a flick, the signal I need to drop the hatch, which is maybe a foot and a half wide, and insert the end of the hose pipe. Tommy, I say, but he's ignoring me. Tommy, the hymns on his tracky bottoms go aglow and spark into flame just as he starts on his t-shirt. Tommy, at last he reckons to twig and turns around just as a jet of water hits him in the face. That's just a normal shift there, isn't it?

Speaker 2: 6:57

Very much so, yeah, I remember that lad really well, real name, john, just for the audience in the book. What we decided was some of it, some of the book people need to, or I wanted to, get across the sort of people you deal with. Some of the stuff in there is quite grim, as you'll know if you've read it. So we decided to use aliases. And then some of the high-profile prisoners I had to deal with, you know we used their real names, mark Bridger, for instance, because you know, people know who that guy is and having to work closely with someone like that can affect you.

Speaker 2: 7:40

But, john, I was probably the only guy, thomas Riley who had any time for him. He wasn't the nicest person. He was very assaultative, which is my word. I'm sure you know what that means. Yeah, it makes me smile. We had some good conversations. He did go to Rampton High Security Hospital. I've no idea. Yeah, it makes me smile. We had some good conversations. He did go to Rampton High Security Hospital. I have no idea what happened to him after that, but the sort of person he was assaulting people, fires the self-harm. I doubt very much whether he'll ever get out, or maybe still alive today, I don't know.

Speaker 1: 8:19

Sure, one of the reasons I picked that passage, and it is that honesty that you bring to this book, because I've had those same guys and you just walk into the shift and you know they're going to go off tonight and you're just you just you want to hate them, but in that section there you also wondered about you know, at some point this was somebody's son, Somebody took him to the park, Somebody played with him, Exactly.

Speaker 1: 8:47

I think that's a lot more honest about what we do go through. It's not always just us walking in there with this hate for everybody in there. In there it's actually tears us back and forth a little bit, dealing with the human side of it as well as the evil side that we're dealing with when they go off.

Speaker 2: 9:07

Quite definitely. I think the thing about Johnny's I'm sure I mentioned that later in that chapter is he's the sort of guy yeah, you can be as nice as pie, you can call him sir. The sort of guy yeah, you can be as nice as pie, you can call him sir. Put him up in a penthouse suite, free food and drink the best accommodation. Treat him in the nicest manner at some point. If he gets pissed off, he's going to cut himself, he's going to set fires and he's going to assault someone. And it's as simple as that. Yeah, I do not expect everyone to be like me, yet I am definitely an empath.

Speaker 2: 9:43

I went back to that lad later. He was on his cell bell. I don't know where they have them in America. It's basically there's a button in the cell, emergency button. They can press that. It'll alert you when you go to the cell. He was freezing because I had soaked him in water, because he obviously still had a lighter. Uh, I gave him some new bedding and offered him a brew, a cup of tea, which I give him in exchange for the lighter. So for me, you know, it was never about taking anything personal. I don't think ever I took anything personal. Do you know what I mean? And if somebody assaulted you or whatever, and five minutes later they were asking you something or wanted to chat or wanted to apologize, I was always happy to do that. But I do not expect everyone to sort of you know behave in the same way, sure.

Speaker 1: 10:40

I can name a couple who I think it became personal with because I believe that they were truly evil, but for the most part as I, because I did almost 14 years at springfield and a lot of that at the mental health unit. The more I learned about those guys, the more you found out, I mean even looking into some of their past. We, we, we could look into their what they call the PSI and, uh, that's a pre-sentencing investigation. And there was an inmate whose parents used to um punish him by putting him in a barrel and putting the lid on and banging the side of the barrel all day long, and you know how do you expect somebody to come out of that normal? Um, and then there were people who were sexually assaulted for just their entire youth and now here they are and they can't function.

Speaker 2: 11:32

Exactly, um, you know a lot of the people I met who were addicts. You know we make judgment about addicts. Obviously a lot of them are thieves and burglars, you know they, they are looked on as the lowest of the low. But a lot of lads I met, you know again trauma, uh, in care, care homes. They were an infamous one in manchester. I come across lads who've been in there. As soon as they mention the word Rosewood House or something like that, you know what was coming.

Speaker 2: 12:08

Yeah, if you've got any sort of I think in the end that's what got to me if you've got any sort of empathy or whatever, you can't help but sort of be touched or whatever. There was a few it was personal with. I always remained professional. But I've mentioned Mark Bridger already. He was a high-profile killer. He took a young lass and did unspeakable things to her and killed her. She was from a village called Maculcheth in Wales and I spoke to people from that village and spoke to people, welsh people who said it affected the whole country. You know I despised him, I hated him. I always remained professional when dealing with him. However, you know, um, I sometimes wonder now, looking back, how I did? You know on reflection, because, like you said, if you mention the word people, I mean evil or hate. You know people go well, hate's a strong word. There's no such thing as evil. I'm saying as you I definitely hated him and he was evil.

Speaker 1: 13:15

Yeah, yeah, I think the general public doesn't understand or doesn't want to. I think it's more of a they don't want to know the evil that's out there, and you've seen it. I've seen it when we've looked into those eyes of some of those inmates who are truly evil. There's nothing good going on inside those eyes and the general public doesn't want to know that. They want to forget about it, and so I think that's why they forget about the prison officers and the nurses and the other people who take care of those inmates.

Speaker 2: 13:48

Um, yeah, in particular, um, when I worked on the healthcare at strange ways or hmp manchester official name, I look at the nursing staff, a couple of good friends now who, in fact three good friends who've left, you know it weighed heavy on them. Nurses, by nature, are empaths or whatever, and sort of trying to look after people and believing in everybody. Because they do, don't they? They don't treat one any different to the other. It affected them badly.

Speaker 2: 14:25

It really did. I think that job me again. Everything's on reflection. I don't believe in hindsight. Looking back now, a lot of prison officers the stress comes from not being themselves. Because I don't know about where you were, very, very macho environment in UK, you know you don't talk about your feelings. Everybody sticks together. It's us and them, that sort of thing which I never went along with. But like I say, I think a lot of prison officers their stress come from not being themselves, being something they weren't yes, I think you're absolutely right.

Speaker 1: 15:10

I I did an interview with uh wally long who's, who was running for a political position over here and he used to be a correctional officer and we got to talking and while he's very religious and he talked about when he was working maximum security, he didn't feel like himself because he had to go in and he was trying to, you know, be as tough as everybody expected him and that wasn't who wally was. He had some empathy, he, he had very strong religious convictions and when he told me, when he let go of that and became himself at work, a lot of the stress that he had disappeared. So I think you're absolutely right on that you have to go in as yourself.

Speaker 2: 15:56

I I did. You know, I was true to myself. Um, I worked in the private sector first for three years, but certainly when I went to strange ways after that, um, I landed on the biggest wing in the jail for six months. It was very challenging. It was a very macho wing, it was a. It was the roughest wing in the jail, no questions. And you know, just being a decent person, you know, if I promised someone a phone call eight o'clock when everyone's locked up, I would go to that person and then you'd have like 15 staff, all sort of jeering and making remarks, new Yorkshire, this New Yorkshire, that you know, there is a massive amount of pressure, and I've always said this and I do believe it. Now I'm laughing as I'm talking to you. I never had no problem with prisoners or patients when they were on health care. All my issues came with other staff and managers, quite definitely.

Speaker 1: 17:09

Yeah, yep. I'll agree with that. That's where my conflict comes from. Yeah, A lot of the problems that I had or the incidents that happened on my unit came from the shift before you know, and they'd stir them up and then here you are dealing with them.

Speaker 2: 17:27

That's a classic. Do you know what? They're the worst sort of people then. If in situations like that you know I remember I think you call it commissary, I learned that word Is it in American prisons, where they can get food and toiletries every week or whatever? Yeah, correct. So I was on shift on evening duty on K wing and it was canteen day, which is like commissary, and on that wing we had basic regime prisoners. They're prisoners who's on punishment, so basically everything's taken off them, minimum time out of cell, they're in prison track suits if they're sentenced. You know it was quite hardcore on there and all these lads who were on basic had no canteens because one of my oppos, when they took the sheets in earlier in the week, I put them all in the bin.

Speaker 2: 18:30

Yeah, so I had about 13 lads who were expecting tobacco and shower gels and cereals and there was nothing. So I I told them all you know. I asked them who they're giving their canteen sheets to and it didn't surprise me. And I went to our so, which is a wing manager he's still in uniform like me, but he's a wing manager. I lost my shit, he lost his shit. Um, all the lads who wanted tobacco which is a big thing in prison, or it was then we got them some tobacco and all the others we promised we'd do what we could to get their canteen, but I pulled no punches.

Speaker 2: 19:15

They knew who had done it and so did I. So, like you say, people doing that, you know I've worked with people. It was embarrassing working with them, how they talk to people and a lot of these people sort of get away with their poor attitude and that if I was working one officer in particular I'll not name him, we'll just call him andy.

Speaker 2: 19:41

Yeah, he used to speak to people like absolute crap yeah right, yeah, so if I was on with him, it used to embarrass me the way he talked to people, but people come to me and they'd say you know what's his problem? I'd say I don't know. However, you know what. What's his problem? I'd say I don't know. However, you know what he's like. So if he's on shift, don't go to him, Come to me or come to somebody else. Sure.

Speaker 1: 20:10

So yeah, quite definitely. That's too bad.

Speaker 2: 20:14

He wishes everybody could.

Speaker 1: 20:16

Yeah, we wish everybody could be a professional, but not everybody is.

Speaker 2: 20:21

Here's the thing I don't know whether it's the same in America. The prison service isn't particularly looking for a type of person. So if you can pass the entry exam, the fitness test, then you're in. So you know, there was 20 people on my course. Probably 10 of them were good officers, five of them were making up numbers and five I wouldn't have paid them in brass washers. You know they weren't worth a toss, as it were. But again, you can't pick and choose who you employ.

Speaker 1: 21:07

Right, we're having a lot of that in, especially the US right now. Recruitment and hiring is tough. Like you said, if you can show up and pass just the basic stuff, they'll hire you. I wish that we spent more time testing people for their communication skills, because you know as well as I do. That's the number one thing. You don't have to be big. You don't have to be a big, scary guy if you can talk. Exactly be you know a big scary guy if you can talk.

Speaker 2: 21:45

You know so exactly. Well, I I talk about dynamic security. Yeah, staff, prisoner relationships, um, they're what used to make the job safe. You know, people get to know you over a number of years, they know what you like, you treat people right or whatever, and and them relationships used to make it safe. Our prison service now, um, possibly the same as yours. It is absolutely flat on its arse, as we'd say. Uh, they are struggling to recruit. The majority of people they are now recruiting into the male prison estate are females. There's no lads going for the job, no males going for the job. Recruitment and people leaving the job is at a balance. So right now it is in dire straits, absolutely in dire straits, and I don't see any way out of it either. The other thing is the only people are going for the job are young people, so under 21. So we've got the in the uk prison service now the least experienced staff ever. The youngest and the vast majority were coming for the job of females in male prisons.

Speaker 1: 23:07

So diet, diet state affairs, absolutely the other thing about bringing in those uh young people, because I know missouri, the state of missouri just lowered the uh age to 19 to go to work in the prison and you haven't developed your ability to communicate at 19 and this generation has even, I think, less of a an ability to communicate because they're used to, you know, with the text and the phone and the yeah, of course they are so person-to-person communication is not the strong suit for some of them, which makes it even tougher.

Speaker 2: 23:46

It's just bums on seats, isn't it? The thing is they've got no life experience. I speak to lots of young people who've been into the job and left with poor mental health. I think the other thing is there was young people on my course. However, when I started at Strangeways in 2005, there was lots of experience. So if you were 20, 21, you know, on a landing, there's a wealth of experience around you. You know you used to get mentored. You know you keep an eye on someone. I mentored quite a few new staff, so you know you spend a month on the same ship pattern helping them out. They see how you deal with people, deal with situations or whatever, whereas now it's pretty much out of training. Here's your keys. Here's a radio Crack on.

Speaker 1: 24:40

Just get on with the job, yeah so for those of us and we've been talking a little bit about uh britain's system here so for those of us that don't know a lot about britain's um prison system, how many uh prisons are we talking about? How many inmates nationwide?

Speaker 2: 25:00

Right if you look at England and Wales. The UK prison service is England and Wales. Yeah, okay, ireland is separate. The Irish prison service and the Scottish prison service is separate. So if we look at England and Wales, they have got a new build. I'll talk about that. But you're looking at maybe about 450 prisons. The prison population last time I looked was round about 90,000, I think, outside America, per 100,000 people. There's more people incarcerated in England and Wales than anywhere else in Europe or possibly the modern sort of world.

Speaker 2: 25:51

I'll tell you how the government thinks. They've got a new build programme now. By 2026, they're looking to provide another 18,000 places for prisoners. Yeah, so that's about four years away. They've estimated the prison population is going to rise by 26,000. So what's that? Tell you there's no interest in this country for me right now. Um, they can't staff the prisons they've got without building new prisons. There's lots of people we are sending to prison and I know this to be true same in america who we could be doing other things with. We could get rid of a third of people in prisons right now. The more serious offences in this country need to also be getting more years and, like I say, if it was tackled and there's plenty of models throughout Europe and elsewhere where you know drug programmes, rehabilitation, rehousing, how you treat your long-term prisoners that work. But for me this country nobody's interested. It's just about sending people to prison and sending people back, because re-offending rates in this country are horrendous. They're terrible.

Speaker 1: 27:17

Right, oh, and same thing over here. Now, over there you don't. In America we have a federal prison system and then a state prison system, and then you even have counties that have jails. Everything's done at the federal level over there. Or do you have county and no, what we have.

Speaker 2: 27:36

So we have four categories of jail over here. You have four categories of prisoner over here. You have four categories of prisoners. You have cattés. They're the highest risk. The home office or the government, the police and other authorities when somebody goes to prison would deem them a catté If they were a very influential armed robber gang member or something they might be. Kata.

Speaker 2: 28:04

So, they're high security prisoners we have. I'm not sure how many there is, but we have high security prisons Strange Ways was one of those and they're the most dangerous or most at risk, most risky prisoners. Then we have Cat B. Everyone in the UK system who goes to court and then goes to prison starts as a Cat B. So we have Cat B local prisons which hold remand prisoners.

Speaker 2: 28:34

Okay, also sentenced prisoners, yeah. We then have a Cat C prison prison, which is a lower category, lower security, and then we have cat d, which is an open prison, literally no fences, you know, you can just walk out, you abscond, uh, very few staff. And the idea is obviously you progress down the categories the longer-term prisoners as your risk allegedly gets less. So we just have them four categories of prison and that's it. And you are usually sent to prison depending on location of crime. So if you were a Manchester lad and you did an armed robbery in Leeds, you would end up in Armley Catby local remand prison in Leeds. So it's the location of your crime where you get sent.

Speaker 1: 29:29

Okay, yeah, that makes sense. Does that, it does.

Speaker 2: 29:34

And I had kind of wondered.

Speaker 1: 29:36

You know, you hear these terms, the other thing, and tell me if I'm right about this. In America we have a real problem because our mental health systems you know you hear these terms, the other thing, and tell me if I'm right about this. In america we we have a real problem because our mental health systems have been kind of just they got rid of mental health only facilities, so we're getting a lot of that into the prison system. Reading through your stuff, it kind of looked like in britain have some you still have some mental health where they can go to a certain mental health house. Where you started it, was it forest bank, was that?

Speaker 2: 30:07

the forest bank. Okay, so that was a lower level a private jail Okay.

Speaker 2: 30:14

Oh, that was a private jail. So let let me tell you how this works. Um the mental health facilities, how this works Um the mental health facilities in this country. Um, back in the eighties, nineties, they closed a lot of places. A lot of people with who really needed those places were sort of put back into the community to be managed in a community. As far as the courts go, this is where our system absolutely stinks. Um, for me, if, when somebody goes into the court system, if they have a history of mental health and they can be managed elsewhere, then that's where they should go.

Speaker 2: 30:56

What happens is, you know, it doesn't matter how bad the mental health is. We've had people who literally come to prison for three or four days, then went on an emergency section to a high, secure hospital. They were that ill. How the authorities view it is they're keeping the public safe when people go to prison, because all prisons are very good at is protecting the public by keeping people locked up. So sure, if somebody is really mentally unwell and goes through our court system, that's not a concern to anyone. Send them to prison. Then deal with the fallout and, for me, the 18 000 spaces that they're going to be building in the next four years. They should be mental health facilities, right.

Speaker 2: 31:48

The other thing is you know I've talked about in the book we've had lads for 10 months on the health care who are incredibly unwell, waiting for a space. It's a mental health unit, forensic forensic unit, because there's also a feeder system. So one space becomes available, say at press switch hospital, near, strange ways. We might have three prisoners, but it might be 20 people in the community also waiting for that space. So what they see is those three are locked up. Yeah, public's not at risk, we'll send one of them. It's tragic, absolutely tragic.

Speaker 1: 32:27

Yeah yeah, it sounds like you guys are dealing with a lot of the same stuff. We are. Um, another thing that you talk a lot about in the book is, uh, the drug addicts and alcoholics, and I'll go back to the book real quick here. Um, I wing stank. It was for detoxing drug addicts and alcoholics. The stench of body odor was constant. The majority had no hygiene skills. They thought baths were for keeping spiders in.

Speaker 1: 32:55

A lot were repeat offenders living on the streets. They don't look after themselves. They'd come in with nothing and go out with nothing Other than that. With only 70 prisoners when full it wasn't a big population to manage. They were like medicated robots too Meds in the morning, meds at dinner, meds at night. On arrival at Strangeways, prisoners got a reception pack sweets or tobacco. Strangeways prisoners got a reception pack sweets or tobacco. That made them targets Generally. But on I-Wing, where everyone was craving something, they were like worms in a field circled by crows. Once they were detoxed they'd move on to H-Wing to complete their alleged recovery. There was always a steady movement of cattle and I've seen that same thing. We're not fixing anything. We medicate them and we just keep them moving. Just we're. We're just filling the the cells, and it doesn't seem like anything's getting accomplished do you have a methadone program over there?

Speaker 1: 33:57

in prison. Some places do not in the federal system that I know of, but I know some of the state systems do.

Speaker 2: 34:03

So in your prisons, if somebody come in um, what sort of detox would they do then?

Speaker 1: 34:12

Well, and those programs you'll find more in the. In our systems when people come into the jail they'll stay in those jails until they're sentenced. So a lot of times by the time they get to actual prison they've already been through the jail. They've been through the detox, they've been without their drugs hopefully, however, much came in through the visiting room, but they've been without their drugs for a while. So in the prison system you're not dealing with as much detox at that point because those hardcore detoxes happened earlier in their sentence or in their incarceration.

Speaker 2: 34:49

Okay so a couple of major things happened in the UK, right? So at some point a government minister, um, said when drug testing come in, that prisoners could get added days. Yeah, so cannabis use you know it's in your system 30 odd days. Lots of people who were in prison using cannabis were getting added days to their sentence. So what people did in prison and I've met lots of lads who said this overnight they all became heroin addicts. Because you take heroin, it's out your system or whatever. So we created a whole generation of heroin addicts in prison.

Speaker 2: 35:37

The detox in this country used to be they called them DF11H. Yeah, they're still around now. They would come into prison. You would get seven days medication there or thereabouts. It would be hardcore. Most of your time behind your door. You would get the shakes. You would be be sick. You know just just like a detox is. They would remain on that wing for an amount of time and then they would move into the main jail. Yeah, human rights you know big in this country on human rights, prisoners rights. They decided it was inhumane. I've actually spoke to a group of Americans.

Speaker 2: 36:25

They were sort of activists, they were doing good stuff. But when I mentioned the DF-118s, the old pulled faces because it's a hardcore detox. The tablet just helps you get through it, but you do suffer. However, I used to see lads come into the private jail do the detox and then they'd leave 12 months later They'd put weight on, they were going to the gym, they looked healthier.

Speaker 2: 36:59

The private sector led the way in the methadone program. So those people who don't know, methadone is obviously a heroin substitute. It acts on the receptors in the brain. In simple terms, right, you start the methadone program and for me, what happened then? All you're doing is you are maintaining that addiction. All you're doing is you are maintaining that addiction. So, in the private sector, lots of people on methadone. Strange ways, lots of people on methadone.

Speaker 2: 37:28

But here's the thing that we all know Addicts will take anything. Some people, if they could get heroin, would take it and take the methadone when they couldn't. But other people would take methadone, heroin, smoke, cannabis, take prescription meds. Subutex is another drug that inhibits brain receptors. Some people are on subutex and for me, not talked about this, not talked about by coroners. Nobody ever mentions it. We had a lot of deaths in custody, drug related people who were on methadone and taking other things who died. And the coroners in this country aren't looking. You know. Basically they're looking to apportion blame. For me, we knew the staff knew the nursing staff knew this guy has died because he's taking methadone and other drugs, he's overdosed. But it's not that simple when it gets to coroner's court. So for me, the methadone program you just see a load of lads come in, most of them underweight, pale, take the methadone, go back out three, six months later and away you go. So it doesn't work, it's not doing anything.

Speaker 1: 38:58

Yeah, and the same thing happens over here. It's just recycling, where we recycle those people over and over and over again. Um, you talked about your lowest levels, and one of the things that aggravates me is our camps, and our camps are like your category, would you say, d um, where there's no fence and they kind of, you know, do that. And I don't know that we need to be spending as much money on these camps for these inmates that are basically sitting there watching tv. Uh yeah, they're not getting a whole lot of work done, when that money could be appropriated back into mental health, back into into some of these addicts and stuff. How bad is the drug problem coming into your prisons? I know that's huge with us. We've got a bunch of stuff coming in through the mail. Fentanyl is a bad thing over here.

Speaker 2: 39:55

Yeah, I've seen it. What's going?

Speaker 1: 39:57

on with the UK.

Speaker 2: 39:59

UK it's spice. Do you know what spice is? I don't write off, right okay.

Speaker 2: 40:07

Obviously, I'm not a chemist or a doctor, but to break it down in its simplest terms, spice was a legal high that was on sale a number of years ago in this country. You could get it at festivals and rallies five-pound bag, green plant-like material with whatever chemicals in it. Yeah, anyway, the government made it illegal under the counter. So what has happened from well, probably the last decade, maybe a bit more, maybe 12 years in this country in prisons, this spice that used to be you know it used to be like cannabis. They now spray it. You can spray it on anything. You can spray it on mail, you can spray it on clothing. It's 40 times more addictive than heroin. It's very cheap to produce. Our prisons are rife with it. It's very cheap to produce. Our prisons are rife with it. It's absolutely flooded.

Speaker 2: 41:15

It does correlate to the way the prison system's gone since 2015. We've gone back. It's pretty much 24-hour or 23-hour bang-up in a lot of UK prisons because they just haven't got the staff to run a regime. You know the government's not bothered if someone's locked up for 23 hours. The unions prison unions aren't bothered. So usage has gone up and in this country it's absolutely. If you go on YouTube and look at Manchester Spice it's destroyed, it's destroyed it. It's horrendous. And you know, corruption, which we haven't mentioned in this country has gone through the roof in prisons and for me, the fact they're employing way more lasses now females, younger people who are impressionable, fall in love or whatever has not helped one bit at all. But again, it's something that people aren't going to talk about. Nobody's going to say corruption's gone up because of the people we're employing. It's not politically correct, is it.

Speaker 1: 42:24

Yeah, and the training's not there for those young people to teach them about manipulation. I mean, no, I know when I first started. I just give some of it over to the fact I was lucky because I was young and dumb like everybody else past me back then. But you, you don't come into prison as a normal human being with the thought that everybody's out to get you and because we don't live that way outside and then, you get in prison and everybody wants something and they're willing to break the rules or go around and you have to have that constant.

Speaker 1: 43:02

You know, your head on a swivel, uh, to make sure that you're not getting manipulated. And for the females, you know, with the males that's a whole other, that's a whole. Your head on a swivel to make sure that you're not getting manipulated. And for the females, you know, with the males that's a whole other, that's a whole other deal. They don't come in there with this knowledge. So we have to teach them, we have to have training for that stuff.

Speaker 2: 43:24

I remember an old time con, an old lag as we'd call them. He was a jewel thief. I had a long conversation with him and he remembers females coming into the prison service.

Speaker 1: 43:38

Yeah, and he said.

Speaker 2: 43:40

I remember it well. He said and the discipline went. And he didn't mean it in a derogatory way. He says it's dead simple. This, sam, you've got a totally male environment. You add females into that environment and people take their eye off the ball. You know relationships happen or whatever. And he said you could see the discipline went. And again, it's not against. Some of the best staff officers I ever worked with were lasses. You know, I said this a lot. In my top 10 prison officers I ever worked with, half of them would be lasses, some brilliant females I worked with. So it's not about that. Every workplace you get lads and lasses together. Relationships form whatever. Prison's no different. We know it should be, but it happens. I remember that was she a corrections officer Tragically got that prisoner out in America.

Speaker 1: 44:44

Yep, that was just several months ago, but yeah.

Speaker 2: 44:51

Yeah, you know that was just several months ago, but yeah, yeah, you know that was really tragic. Obviously she's falling head over heels him. Not so much. People will use people, won't they?

Speaker 1: 44:58

yeah, yeah, and you know she wasn't new, she was a supervisor. She had I don't remember, I'm wanting to say 16, 17 years in the service, so she had been around this a while and still managed to get manipulated. You talk about in your book there, tractor and trailer tractor and trailer.

Speaker 1: 45:22

Yeah, the one gal that you talk about in there, and and I knew a few female officers that reminded me of her. Because one thing that the females because when I started at missouri state, pen, um, there weren't a whole lot of females, maybe one or two that worked the housing units now they work other jobs, but they didn't work the walks and then when they started moving the females in, it's almost like there was a mother hen thing, and trailer kind of reminded me of that, that they, they could walk in and say things that I couldn't as a male officer and in the maximum security. I think they actually I think they humanized some of it, because when it is that all-male environment, it's just testosterone and it's just, you know, but the inmates had to start thinking, oh, there's a female over there. I think it made them think of their mother or their sister or their whatever, and I think it humanized it a little bit.

Speaker 2: 46:26

Are female staff respected in American prisons?

Speaker 1: 46:32

It's like everybody else. You have female staff that can walk in there and they can be that mother hen and everybody listens to them. And then you've got some female staff that will walk in there and just stir stuff up because they have a power trip. So there's both.

Speaker 2: 46:48

Yeah, I completely understand that. The point of view I'm coming from is, uh, up until uh again, maybe five or six years ago, if a female officer got assaulted by a prisoner, that prisoner was going to be in trouble, not from us, not from the staff. You know I I have seen prisoners uh hospitalized for just speaking down or being abusive to a female member of staff. Yeah, um did okay to punch me. However, you know, if you attacked a female, it was definitely a no, no, it was like a prisoner code.

Speaker 2: 47:29

However, of late now very hostile environment, uk prisons people are locked up. There's no relationships, no staff prison relationships. Nobody knows anyone. There's all new staff. They don't know the prisoners and pretty much anyone's fair game. Nobody knows anyone. There's all new staff. They don't know the prisoners and pretty much anyone's fair game. So, whether you're a male or female, you know. If someone's coming out of a cell and they're going to assault someone because they're not happy, it doesn't matter. That's gone out the window. So that sort of prisoner code that used to be there has gone now the respect is gone.

Speaker 1: 48:12

So if a, if one of your officers is assaulted over there, is the government good about uh charging them and giving them more time, or do they just do like whatever, it's a prison officer, well obviously you can see me I'm smiling, it's not, you know.

Speaker 2: 48:31

No, um, it's not good. There are people who've, you know, received serious charges, but, however, um, for me it's all for the prisoner. Um, a lot of people go to court on charges, you know, assault, and they give them a concurrent sentence, which means if someone says serving seven years, they'll get three years for an assault concurrent, which means it runs alongside their sentence, so they're not in effect getting any punishment. Um, I don't believe it's treated as it should be. Um and our legal system very much like the american legal system. You know, someone's always out to to make a book or whatever. Um, so it's. It's more like a circus. For me it's not straightforward. If someone's assaulted in prison, that charge will go to this CPS, which is a Crown Prosecution Service, and the police. If they're not for taking it on, then nothing happens. The punishment will come back to the prison, as it were. So no, it's not taken serious?

Speaker 1: 49:49

for me not at all yeah, that kind of makes us open game sometimes, you know if if they're not going to get in trouble for it oh well, I don't have anything to lose yeah, very much.

Speaker 1: 49:59

So now, um definitely definitely so I want to move on to um. I know that you've talked about how the job affected you, and so this is more towards the end of the book, and I hope everybody will go out and read this book. I really think you'll enjoy it and the honesty that's in here, and here's some more of that. I looked in that morning and I could see his silhouette by the window. Nothing new there. When he wasn't sat at the end of his bed he'd do that. I wished him good morning, but he didn't answer Again. That wasn't unusual. I finished the count and I went to the office. I got to a quarter past eight and one of the orderlies who took the prisoner's dinner request if I'd accompany him to Powell-Nickpon's cell. Sometimes Nickpon came out for Am I pronouncing that right, nickpon? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 50:56

Sometimes Nickpon came out for dinner and other times refused. He might be aggressive with you or stand still like a crash test dummy. You never knew what to expect. I dropped his hatch. It still wasn't properly light, so my eyes took time to adjust and I gawped at the silhouette for a good while. What's up, mr S? The orderly asked he's dead kid. Go back to your cell, please.

Speaker 1: 51:18

Nikki was just down on the landing. Like me, a strawberry blonde from Sheffield, slightly built but tall, she was someone who'd say it the way it was. She could be confrontational and, surprisingly enough, many prisoners would rather avoid confrontation. Nikki didn't hold back, but after a dodgy start we couldn't have got on better. She became one of my favorite people to work with, and behind those specks of hers lurked a fierce willpower and intellect. She was also tough as old boots.

Speaker 1: 51:45

I called her over and I got my fish fish knife out because I thought Nick Pond was hanging. When I got to him there was a ligature which I cut, but something didn't seem to compute. Then I realized he wasn't hanging at all. He was stood feet flat on the floor, arms by his side, body at an angle of 45 degrees, neck, back and jaw fully extended the ligature it was more like a washing line wasn't tied to the neck, it was wrapped around the bars furthest, apart from the windows, forming a big loop. He'd leaned forward like a ski jumper on ski Sunday, his neck and jaws pushed out. That garroted it. Put me in mind of that painting by munich the screen. He was fucking purple. It was a ghastly sight.

Speaker 1: 52:32

The worst body I'd seen, nicky, was in the cell. He was dead quite definitely, and with a line cut he'd become dead weight. I managed to lift him with the adrenaline but when I put him down his legs got tangled on the table. I couldn't't shift him again. Fuck's sake, said Nicky, and we had a dark little laugh Together. We got up, shifted his legs and laid back on the floor. I cannot find words to describe accurately the smell of that corpse or the look on his face. And then you talk about the fact that a few months later you're getting in your car and that smell, you keep smelling it and different places you go, you continue to smell that smell and you realize that this has bothered you more than what you thought it did.

Speaker 2: 53:27

So talk to me a little bit about that and recognizing how much of a trauma that was for you. So firstly, on the smell front, this lad had a body odor, quite unlike anybody else. You yourself, having worked with people who are mentally unwell, especially on medication, you know it's not pleasant. Like I said, the image of that lad now, you know, stays with me. It no longer bothers me. I see it rarely. However, the smell, it's very hard to describe. I've never discussed it before doing the book. At that time, me and my partner and my daughter, we were pretty much on his ass, which we were short of money uh, I worked a lot of hours and that we certainly didn't have money for another car. I had the I don't know whether you've seen them call them magic trees over here. They, they shake like christmas trees, they air fresheners, right. So I had like three of them in the car. It stank you know, my missus has asthma.

Speaker 2: 54:36

It affected her. She was kicking off. But every time I got in that car I could smell that lad. It wasn't pleasant. Yeah, and I'm driving home one night it was raining, I didn't have a coat, didn't have my prison coat. I turned off the East Lanks, which is a road that comes out of Manchester. I was about a mile and a half from home. I was tired, hungry, pulled the car up on the kerb, got out and walked home. Erm, I'd had enough the smell. Pulled the car up on the curb, got out and walked home.

Speaker 2: 55:12

I'd had enough of the smell. I walked home. I was pretty wet when I got in, pissed off. Like I say, I was tired. The missus said what's up, said the car's broke down. She didn't say anything. Obviously I was quite moody and the next day I took the day off, phoned a scrap company who'd come and pick the car up and away. It went that car longest I've ever had a car. I love my car. We couldn't afford another car but it had to go. It was only when I did the book that I told the missus about that. I've never, I've never told before. Her mum and dad lent us some money to buy another car. So to all intents and purposes it broke down. It was beyond repair. But but the reason was the smell. You know I I have read articles on ptsd and the like, and there is a name for that when you associate with smells with certain incidents.

Speaker 2: 56:12

You know, maybe you lose your mother and a perfume your mom wore when you were a child. When you smell, it again reminds her of it. That sort of thing.

Speaker 1: 56:23

Absolutely, and I've read stuff where it says. You know, smell is one of the strongest receptors for memories that we have. I mean, think of walking in the house and you know you smell pumpkin pie spice for the first time in the fall and immediately you start thinking of Thanksgiving and Christmas. Or you know, I've known people who had someone pass away and they made a pillow out of their shirt because they liked having that comforting smell. So to have a smell be what is one of your triggers. Did you recognize at the time that this was PTSD and did you go get talking?

Speaker 2: 57:03

to somebody. No, no, the only people I talked to. Yeah, the next day I went back to work. I finished uh, I was on an early shift. That day should have finished at 12. Uh, a policeman coming to the prison to take a statement. Uh, that was four hours. He apologized. He said because the coroners were coming on top, as it were, with the police, it needed to be an accurate statement. So it was four hours. I finished the statement. There was no one around. I went out to my car. I hadn't seen nobody. I actually stripped off, opened the boot of my car, stripped off everything down to my boxer shorts and got in my car to drive home. Yeah, because of the stink, went in the house, put the stuff straight in the washer.

Speaker 2: 57:55

The thing now about that story is I met that lad, nick Pond. Nick Pond, pavel Nick Pond, he was a Polish lad. Yeah, I actually met his sister at the coroner's court. So the coroner's court was two weeks long. I was probably the last one on the stand, pretty much, yeah, at the end of the two weeks. Now, I knew this lad. I knew him really well. I knew about his behavior. I knew everything about him. I'd worked with him the most for me, the coroner's court. The first witness that should have been in that court was me. I could have told the coroner and his sister everything about him and his behavior.

Speaker 2: 58:44

So when I actually got on the stand after two weeks, the coroner says we've got a young lady here, so you imagine that she's come from Poland on her own. Yeah, there's nobody there. Her brother, when she actually got to see the body, he'd lost weight. She couldn't understand that. She couldn't understand why he was on the health care. She couldn't understand why he was on an unlocked protocol, which means he only came out on his own, not with other prisoners. On the healthcare. She couldn't understand why he was on an unlocked protocol, which means he only came out on his own, not with other prisoners. All these things she couldn't understand. So you know, through the coroner he's asking me questions. You know I made a lot of eye contact with her, explained she had a translator, she was crying all the way through it. You, you know I was on the stand.

Speaker 2: 59:32

About four hours afterwards the prison service had a barrister, part of the legal team came and said you know, uh, she, she can't speak to you, but she'd like to thank you for looking after a brother. So I'm getting a bit teary now this because this was quite moving. You thank me for looking after a brother. See, I'm getting a bit teary now this because this was quite moving. You thank me for looking after a brother and you know we couldn't really do a lot for him. He weren't good and I just think it was really sad. You know it must have been terrible for her losing a sibling like that and having to sit for two weeks before she actually found out what had happened. That is a side that people wouldn't see. That probably affected me more with his sister than the actual incident itself.

Speaker 1: 1:00:26

One of the inmates that had some of the most mental health problems I've ever seen. Um, he was just, he wasn't even there and he would self harm constantly and he had a couple of family members come in. And this is what a lot of people don't understand Um, they expect their family members to be like this mental health inmate. Well, his family members came in His sister was an attorney and his mother was a judge and they knew he had mental health problems, but they hadn't seen him in years and seen where it had progressed to. So it was quite shocking for them and I remember we had to stay there with them while they visited, but that was quite shocking.

Speaker 1: 1:01:10

The other thing I think a lot of people don't understand that you talk about in that last paragraph is people have this idea of when an inmate commits suicide and hangs themselves, that they're hanging from you know a light fixture or something. And I know of two during my time who you walk by the cell and they just look like they're sitting against the bunk and what they've done is put a ligature around their neck and just set down that two inches. You know to just cut off the air and passed away and you can't tell you have to really stop, and you know it's crazy.

Speaker 1: 1:01:46

So yeah, I've seen the same thing you have there quite definitely.

Speaker 2: 1:01:52

You know, uh, we had quite a few deaths with like crocodile rolls where people laid in bed. They literally liggage around the bunk, leads you around the neck and just you know, like a crocodile would. So they'd be in bed, look like they were asleep or whatever. Death in custody in this country are very difficult for the families because the coroner's inquest it used to be 12 months, 18 months after a death, which is a long time for people to wait. Now it's about three years. So people are losing their loved ones and the inquest is like three years later.

Speaker 1: 1:02:35

Not getting answers for years.

Speaker 2: 1:02:38

Wow. Well, they're not necessarily going to get any answers, because the thing is, you're told quite clearly, you know, if an incident is three years ago, I can't remember, I can't remember, I can't remember, I can't remember, I can't remember. That's, that's all people do. The other thing is, uh, the coroner's courts are, for me, very hostile. It's not about the coroner. Um, you know, primarily they should be looking at the cause of death. So if they were on methadone and taking other things, you know, maybe a drug overdose? They don't. They're looking to a portion blame, looking to blame somebody, whoever it is, somebody, a nurses, the nurses used to come under fire. Um, I remember one nurse who had interviewed a prisoner two years before in reception. Yeah, the coroner was asking her, did you ask him this question? Yeah, and two years later he's died. And this last blesser was like you know, I can't remember. Well, you should, you haven't signed to say you asked him this, did you ask him? And it was irrelevant, it was nothing to do with the death.

Speaker 1: 1:03:50

It's almost like they're on some sort of power trip yeah, trying to put that blame somewhere so they can blame somebody for it, so the people higher up don't have to answer for it exactly shit rolls downhill, as they say yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:04:07

So tell me I mean, you spoke a little bit about your book Was that cathartic for you? Was that being able to sit down and put all that down on paper? Did that help you? I know you talked about that. You hadn't thought about that one part until you started doing that. Was it a big thing to help you get past some of that?

Speaker 2: 1:04:30

right, okay, so it's, it's 2022 now. So I started working on the book. Uh, 217, yeah, it all sort of come together. So, uh, round about may june 217 At the time, 2018, when the book came out, I did lots of TV and radio. Everyone asked me the same question. I said yeah, it did. You know it was a good thing. Now, on reflection, no, it made me incredibly ill. Oh, really, it did. Yeah, it did you know when you're doing a book.

Speaker 2: 1:05:09

Obviously I'm an author, I work with a fantastic writer, so you've got an original script and then you're working with the publisher constantly, you know, trying to get it accurate, maybe cutting bits out, looking at other bits. You know, I maybe read the script 15, 20 times the full book coming up to it being published.

Speaker 2: 1:05:32

I wasn't sleeping nightmares every night, not always, you know. They weren't always dark or unpleasant, they weren't always bad, it's just I couldn't shut down. And although the book gave me some purpose, it definitely wasn't enjoyable and it wasn't a healing process either. Now, now, I've never regretted anything I've done. Being a prison officer allowed me to do my book and, you know, give me them experiences, but it definitely made me ill.

Speaker 1: 1:06:16

Wow, just reliving all that and bringing it back up, huh.

Speaker 2: 1:06:23

Yeah, I mean you could say now what I'm doing, now I have moved on a lot. I speak to a lot of different people, loads of people who have their own, you know, like traumatic childhoods, poor mental health or whatever. So it doesn't affect me. You know, I'm not taking everything on board, even though there's a lot of negativity. It's just sort of giving me a focus or whatever. So, yeah, I've definitely, I suppose, always have something to do with criminal justice and mental health, but it's in a positive way, as it were.

Speaker 1: 1:07:02

Well, that's great that people are reaching out to you and you're getting to tell your story. People are reaching out to you and you're getting to tell your story. I've read this one, the first one, but you've come out with a second one.

Speaker 3: 1:07:16

Yeah, that's right. So tell me a little bit about it.

Speaker 2: 1:07:19

So this one, strange Ways Unlocked Okay, yeah, I visit some of the stuff I didn't visit in the first book. You know some of the characters I came across talking more about the system and how broken it is, and then I introduce some characters. There's only one, no, two characters one whom I've met, one who I've never met physically but I feel I know really well, and the other characters are lads I used to lock up. So it's sort of their journeys, their childhoods, how they came in, you know, to become criminals, the mental health side of it, family upbringings and where they are now.

Speaker 2: 1:08:13

And you know, a lot of it is grim. It is really dark. What I'm hoping? That when people read this book, they'll have a better understanding of how some people end up in prison and maybe not be so judgmental. But it's totally different from the first book. It's not going over anything. It's not the same thing. It comes at it from a different angle. Before you ask me whether this was cathartic, it was incredibly difficult to put together because you know I'm visiting these characters doing their stories, making sure their stories are accurate, as well as putting it together with the other stuff. So it was a complicated book to put together, which made it quite stressful. However, you know it's quite liberating as well, and it was for the lads that I discuss in the book as well. You know it's given them sort of a platform or whatever, something they can go back and look at. So, yeah, very enjoyable.

Speaker 1: 1:09:28

Okay, well, when I get the chance here shortly, I'm going to buy that one and I'd like to bring you back on after I read that one.

Speaker 2: 1:09:39

Definitely it comes out in paperback in January 2023.

Speaker 1: 1:09:46

Oh, okay, is it out in hardback now. It's out in the hardback now. Yeah, okay. Is it out in hardback now it's out in hardback now. Yeah, Okay, so tell everybody where they can get your books, where can they pick those up at? The best place is Amazon.

Speaker 2: 1:09:58

If you go to Amazon, obviously my first book, strange Ways of Prison Officers, story by Neil Samworth, and the second one, strange Ways Unlocked, by Neil Samworth.

Speaker 1: 1:10:10

Okay, if people wanted to reach out to you, do you have a website that you would point them towards?

Speaker 2: 1:10:17

YouTube Real Porridge. My channel's called Real Porridge, sam Samworth, real Porridge. Sam Samworth, real Porridge. In this country they used to call prison porridge doing your porridge, doing your time. So my YouTube channel is called Real Porridge. But if people go over there, under every single video there's an email for the channel and if they want to send me an email I'll get back in touch with them, usually within a couple of days okay well, I can't thank you enough.

Speaker 1: 1:10:55

Like I said, I love this book and it was one of the best books I've ever read by a correctional officer is the most honest, and you just tell it like it is. And even though you're over there in the uk and I'm in america, I really, um, I felt a kinship to what we've both seen and what we've done, so I I'd like to see everybody go out and get strange ways and and pick up the new one. I'm going to go pick up the new book and then, uh, I'll get a hold of you and I'd like you to come back and let's finish on that.

Speaker 2: 1:11:26

Listen and listen, Listen, mate. We've only scratched the surface, haven't? We. There's a lot of things. I'd like to ask you about the American system as well.

Speaker 1: 1:11:35

Okay, yeah, let's do that Well. Thank you, Sam. I appreciate your time and.

Speaker 2: 1:11:40

I'll see you soon. Thanks for coming and very much appreciated.

Speaker 1: 1:11:46

Absolutely.