81: A Journey through Leadership, Training, and Corrections Challenges - Interview w/Joseph Gunja

Joe Gunja's career trajectory from a military police officer to a regional director is not just a tale of personal achievement, but also a story of the varying levels of inmate-related issues and the work required in the different roles.   Joe reveals a career where promotions often come with intricate challenges and highlights the importance of adaptability and leadership in correctional environments.

We confront hard truths about the placement of the severely mentally ill behind bars,  examining the sobering challenges within mental health units and the psychological toll on both inmates and staff. 

 Joe explains his role as an expert witness in correctional cases, providing insights into the courtroom battles that often remain unseen by the public eye.
 
Joseph Gunja joe@simco1.com

SIMCO - Jail, Prison, and Corrections Expert Witness Consultation Services https://simco1.com/

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:35

Hello and welcome back to Prison Officer Podcast. Today I'm talking to Joe Gunja, and before we get to our interview with Joe, I want to take just a minute to thank one of our sponsors. During my 29 years in corrections, I've used or supervised Pepperball hundreds of times and now, as a master instructor for Pepperball, I teach others about the versatility and effectiveness of the Pepperball system. Pepperball is always the first option in my correctional toolbox because it gives me the ability to transition quickly from area saturation to direct impact and the organic irritants, or PAVA. They have impact ranges of 0 to 150 feet. You know Pepperball is the perfect tool for cell extractions or fights on the rec yard. If you want to learn more about Pepperball, go to wwwpepperballcom or click the link below in today's show information guide. Pepperball is the safer option. First, and if you haven't done so, take a moment to like this podcast or, better yet, hit the subscribe button or share it with your friends and family. Now let's get back to our interview with Joe Gunja.

Speaker 1: 1:41

Joe Gunja had a distinguished career with the Federal Bureau of Prisons. He started off as a correctional officer at the penitentiary in Leavenworth, kansas, and moved on to positions of increasing responsibility within the Bureau of Prisons. He worked as a shift supervisor, an investigator captain, associate warden. He was warden at three complex facilities and he was regional director for the western region for two years. He finally retired, coming back home to Springfield, missouri, and was the warden at the Federal Medical Center for Prisoners, and I welcome him as a guest today. I've been looking forward to talking to you. How are you today, joe?

Speaker 2: 2:20

Good, how about yourself?

Speaker 1: 2:22

Oh, I'm doing good. You were one of my wardens when I worked at the Federal Medical Center, so it's a pleasure to talk to you. So I always start, go ahead.

Speaker 2: 2:33

When we worked together here, what was your position? You were in.

Speaker 1: 2:40

I don't know if I'd made lieutenant yet. I was either senior officer specialist, or I'd made lieutenant I'm not sure.

Speaker 2: 2:43

I think you were a lieutenant was I okay believe so yep and uh.

Speaker 1: 2:49

Yeah, springfield is an interesting place to work and we'll get more into that some. I'm sure you've got some stories about the, the federal medical center, also yeah but I always like to start these the same. I'm always interested in how people got started in corrections and everything. So tell me about where you grew up and what that was like and what your first steps into the corrections was.

Speaker 2: 3:11

Well, I grew up in Kansas City, okay, and I had signed up to be in the police academy when I got out of high school. But a new mayor came in and he canceled the program and said everybody had to reapply. So it was going to be about a two-year period. So I was already a senior in high school. So I said, well, heck, I'll just join the Army and be an MP and then when I get back I can transition to be a police officer. So I was an MP in the first cab division, fort Hood, texas, for close to three years. Then, when I got out of the Army, I came back to Kansas City and I worked for a private security company and then I was an undercover officer for a private security company and then I was an undercover officer for another private security company and then I started at the Independence Police Department. But prior to all that I had applied with the OPM site. They had a place in Leavenworth where you could apply for any government job.

Speaker 2: 4:19

So there was a notice up there for congressional officers at Leavenworth so I applied. But I didn't know it'd be a long time before they'd even interview me. It was close to a year and a half. I was a police officer in Independence Missouri and I got the notice that they wanted to interview me. So I started there in 1980 and stayed there for about seven years.

Speaker 1: 4:50

I think people forget that these days you can get hired on pretty quick, but absolutely you remember, of course, the, the application process. That was what? 37 pages, yeah, to fill out all that stuff. And then you did, you sat on a list.

Speaker 2: 5:06

Even if, like you, you had military experience, you had police experience, it didn't get you on within a few weeks, you had to wait yeah, you know, what I found out at leavenworth is they hired a lot of new employees from Fort Leavenworth, the disciplinary barracks, because they had the military prison right there. So they hired a bunch of employees over there and they were good, because these guys, most of them, had retired Not all, but some had retired and then they just transitioned straight from the disciplinary barracks to the uh prison there. So I think that had something to do with the delay because they were bringing on so many people, but there wasn't much, I would say open possessions transition at Leavenworth at the time.

Speaker 2: 6:05

The officers well, everybody there really, except the wardens and the death staff who moved around a lot they were. Usually they were homesteading there until they retired. Usually they were homesteading there until they retired. So I spent about six and a half seven years there. I was promoted to a GS-9 lieutenant in Oxford, wisconsin, spent a couple of years there and then was promoted to GS-11 lieutenant at the SCI in Latuna, texas.

Speaker 1: 6:48

Yep.

Speaker 2: 6:49

Just spent a year there and told me you know it was time for me to be a captain. So they promoted me to. I think I was only there like 16, 17 months.

Speaker 1: 7:01

Sure.

Speaker 2: 7:01

Back then, since the Bureau of Prisons budget was pretty extensive, they weren't cutting corners at the time.

Speaker 1: 7:14

Right.

Speaker 2: 7:15

And we moved around a lot and we moved around a lot. So I was promoted to captain at Seagoville, texas, which was a low security facility outside of Dallas, and we really liked it there. I wanted to stay there a while and then, after about another year and a, half they said they needed me to go to Lompoc California US Penitentiary, lompoc, california, as a captain.

Speaker 1: 7:46

Right.

Speaker 2: 7:47

And that was quite an experience. But all my experience at Leavenworth taught me how to manage that place. Yeah, A lot of game members there.

Speaker 1: 8:01

Absolutely.

Speaker 2: 8:02

Good lieutenants too. That worked under me.

Speaker 1: 8:05

Good lieutenants that stayed there a long time, I mean there were several homesteader lieutenants.

Speaker 2: 8:10

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 8:11

So was Leavenworth the first time you'd really walked into a prison? I mean, you'd probably drop guys off at jail, but had you ever been around prison like that before?

Speaker 2: 8:21

Well, when I was an MP, my last year and a half, they selected me for the AWOL apprehension and deserter apprehension section at.

Speaker 2: 8:31

Fort Hood. So we went all over Texas to pick up AWOLs and deserters. Now we didn't just pick them up like at jails. About half of them we picked up at jails, but the other half we had to find ourselves. So we would pick them up and my office at Fort Hood was right next to the stockade and that's where we used to. When we'd bring them into our office we'd take them over there. But my experience was pretty limited. I'd been in that stockade off and on, but when we transported inmates they weren't really inmates, they were soldiers that had went AWOL.

Speaker 2: 9:16

And some of them just had personal issues or family issues, or they just didn't want to be in the Army or whatever. So a lot of times we would have to stop over at local jails Air Force bases to house our guys, maybe overnight. I had pretty limited experience doing that. I mean I had probably been inside a jail. I mean I had probably been inside of a jail before I worked at Leavenworth or a stockade or a prison, maybe 20 hours. That was it.

Speaker 1: 9:52

It's interesting that you mentioned they were still soldiers. They weren't inmates. Even after and a lot of people don't realize that but even after they're sentenced and they go to a military prison, they're still soldiers. They still fall under the same regulations. I've known and talked to some of the guys from the DB and they've done forced haircuts over there, whereas we might do a forced medication or a forced cell injury.

Speaker 2: 10:16

Yeah, yeah, they've done forced haircuts for soldiers.

Speaker 1: 10:20

Who wouldn't do that, wouldn't groom on their own. So yeah pretty interesting to see some of that now what?

Speaker 2: 10:26

we had a program in the army. A lot of people don't know this, but these awols and deserters had an option to be either discharged either under dishonorable or general, or they could be retrained at Fort Sill, Oklahoma. It was a retraining facility where soldiers and we went on trips there about twice a month.

Speaker 2: 10:53

We'd take a load of them in a van, drop them off and head back. But those soldiers could go through this retraining brigade or battalion, whatever you want to call it. It's more like that kind of like basic training all over again, sure, and then they could reintegrate themselves back into the army and they would send them. You know, they wouldn't send them back to their parent unit, they would send them wherever there was a place for them and I'd say about half of them took that up. A lot of guys, a lot of people don't know. Getting a general discharge in the Army is not good If it's not honorable. Dishonorable is the worst, of course, but a general discharge is generally a discharge where the Army and you agree to part ways.

Speaker 2: 11:42

And any time you apply for a job they're going to ask you well, why didn't you get an honorable discharge? So that's why most of the guys eventually were wise enough to decide I need to be retrained to at least finish my time we weren't even in Vietnam at the time to at least finish my time. We weren't even in Vietnam at the time when I entered the Army. We were. That was the end of the Vietnam War. They were trying to evacuate a lot of people from Saigon, which was Ho Chi Minh City later, but it was Saigon back then. So a lot of most soldiers never really participated in anything overseas over in Vietnam.

Speaker 2: 12:23

So I mean the job couldn't have been that hard. Most of those guys just didn't want to be away from home until you got homesick.

Speaker 1: 12:29

Sure, sure, absolutely, yeah. Well, going to Leavenworth is I mean, that's getting dropped into the trenches, especially back then. That was a rocking and rolling place. So what were some of the things that you learned there as an officer? What did you see?

Speaker 2: 12:45

Well, what I learned a lot from was the senior officers that took me under their wing and taught me. We had very good supervisors there, lieutenants that had been there a long long time. We had probably seven or eight lieutenants that were there probably 15 plus years in different parts of their career. We even had a few lieutenants that were officers there and were promoted internally and we had some outstanding lieutenants and we had a few come in and out. You know probably about 20% of lieutenants, usually GS9 lieutenants. New ones would come in for a year and then move on to another facility. But really the correctional officers, the GSH senior officer specialists, are the ones that really trained me.

Speaker 2: 13:39

Right and taught you how to respect the inmates. Don't try to bully them, treat them with dignity and respect. And that really set the tone for my leadership style when I left there, because I mean we had to use force on occasion, but not much, very minimal force, because most of the inmates and the staff got along really well. I mean, really did, we didn't have any issues.

Speaker 2: 14:10

I mean we had a few guys that would be involved in gang activities or assaulting an inmate or commit a homicide. My first year there we had 19 murders, wow yeah. And then the warden was Jerry O'Brien. I have to give him his accolades. Yeah, he was the warden there and he was able to get the regional director to approve the placement of metal detectors all over the prison and that cut those murders down to almost 95%.

Speaker 1: 14:50

Wow.

Speaker 2: 14:51

We had metal detectors that inmates walked through off the yard back from food service into their housing units and then the officers also carried those handheld metal detectors. So, the inmates were able to acquire weapons, but nothing made out of metal, so it really had a big impact on it. That was a good move by that warden to do that Absolutely. That was a good move by that warden to do that, absolutely.

Speaker 1: 15:20

You said you learned a lot there initially that you took to the other institutions. I've heard people talk over the years that everybody ought to start off at a maximum security before you go to some of the others, because you learn so much so quickly. I think there's something to that. I don't think it's viable for us to do, but you do take that through the rest of your career.

Speaker 2: 15:44

Yeah, it's kind of funny because back then our training center for new and new off well, all new Bureau employees was in was in Colorado. They had one in Georgia. Glencoe wasn't in place yet but we had a place in Georgia but it wasn't Glencoe. If it was, it was a small place. Most of them all went to this training academy in Aurora and right now it's the uh man is MSTC, you know, management and specialty training center. Right it was when I retired.

Speaker 2: 16:21

I think back then it was connected to that, but you went to class at a different place and they had barracks where you lived in kind of like an apartment complex and good training. It was two weeks of intense training and uh, but what was weird about that is the Bureau of Prisons had so many employees at the time. I didn't go there until I had like 11 months at Leavenworth. Right, you're supposed to go there within your first two to three months. So I went there I was almost a year and what was weird is you talked to other employees that weren't working at high security prisons and they didn't know anything about having problems with inmates or situations where you had riots and homicides and assaults, use of forces, things like that.

Speaker 2: 17:21

Most of them had never even experienced it. So I would agree with you that penitentiary does teach you a lot more in a short amount of time yeah, so you left leavenworth after six, six and a half years, you said, and then you went to what was the next time oxford, wisconsin what was that like I? Have a pretty good place it was cold.

Speaker 1: 17:46

Yeah, yeah, guarantee that.

Speaker 2: 17:51

But that was a good place to be a new lieutenant because the staff were very professional there. And we had a good crew of lieutenants, a good captain there.

Speaker 1: 18:02

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 18:03

And a really good warden. The AWs the associate wardens moved in and out, so I never was really comfortable with any ones. It seemed like I got there and one left after three months and a new one came in and a year later he was gone. But that was a good way to learn how to be a new lieutenant. I did both things. I worked shift work for half my time there and then I was in the SIS office for the other half.

Speaker 1: 18:33

Okay, Well, tell me a little bit about SIS. What was it like? Of course you were a private investigator on the street, so you had a heads up on that a little bit.

Speaker 2: 18:42

Not really.

Speaker 2: 18:43

No, I mean a little, a little bit, not really, no, I mean a little, a little bit, but most of the things we investigated were inmate you know, requesting protective custody. We reviewed those cases, a lot of gang activity over the phones. At that time the new phone system just came into the BOP where all inmate phone calls were recorded. We would listen to those on occasion if we had a tip that made me inmates for trying to smuggle drugs in, we'd try to find those calls and get those. And then any investigations we did were done by us. But when I got there for some reason the warden had decided he was going to make two unit managers the SIS because they had been lieutenants. But when me and another lieutenant showed up we were able to talk to the captain and having those unit managers be unit managers and let us be the investigators, yeah.

Speaker 1: 19:47

Yeah. So, captains, your next tell me what it was like.

Speaker 2: 19:53

I went from there to Latuna as another lieutenant.

Speaker 1: 19:56

Another, okay, 11th lieutenant.

Speaker 2: 19:58

Yeah, because I was a GS-9 lieutenant at Oxford and I was a GS-11 at Latuna.

Speaker 1: 20:03

Okay.

Speaker 2: 20:04

Latuna is an awesome place to work in any position because the union has 100% membership and they were very good. The union president was easy to work with. He had been a correctional officer and a counselor and a unit manager. He was a unit manager after he left being the union president. Those staff were really good.

Speaker 2: 20:33

What I liked about them is they trained the lieutenants. When they came in they would take them under their wing. Show them what's going on. Tell them about all the inmates. That prison was unique Because we were right on the border of New Mexico and El Paso, texas. It was Anthony Texas slash New Mexico and we had a lot of illegal aliens in there. But it was a pretty easy place to work.

Speaker 1: 21:05

Inmates never presented any significant problems there, anything yeah, I got to go down there for two weeks. We had a dct training, uh, for lead instructors down there and the thing I noticed was the family atmosphere at that institution is as strong as anywhere. There was one of the officers who'd had a motorcycle wreck and he had lost a leg so he was living in staff housing and he was needing to move out and they didn't have the resources or whatever. And the DCT teams, we all went over there it was like 50 of us and we went over there after training that afternoon and moved their entire house in like three and a half hours.

Speaker 1: 21:46

But, there was staff feeding us and staff doing stuff and it was a real family atmosphere.

Speaker 2: 21:52

I thought while I was down there what I also did there is I started our sort team Because we didn't have a sort team at the time. El Reno had one in the south-central region. I believe Seagerville had one in the south central region. I believe Seagoville had one.

Speaker 1: 22:12

And how far is it to Latuna? I mean, what's their nearest response? You're quite a ways to another institution, aren't you?

Speaker 2: 22:20

The closest you are to any institution is Fort Worth.

Speaker 1: 22:25

Okay, yeah, that's hours, it's like an eight to ten hour drive. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 22:30

So we started the sort team with basically nothing. We didn't have any equipment. We were able to get some equipment from the Fort Bliss Army Base, which was adjacent to El Paso Bliss Army base, which was adjacent to. El Paso and we also were able to get a lot of training by the Army SRT teams to train us. And then we started out in an old slaughterhouse building.

Speaker 2: 23:08

But we had some good members on that team and the first time we went to a competition it was at fort worth at that present and we came in third place. So we did good. We had a good set of the eyes there. That was uh. But again, I only stayed there about 18 months and then I went from there to seagalville oh, was that a lieutenant or captain?

Speaker 1: 23:26

Captain, okay, how were you? The lieutenant to the captain move was one of the hardest for me. I felt like I was the least prepared because here I was, this team leader, this guy out front running cell entries, and here I got put into this sort of administration position. You're kind of with administration, but you're kind of not. What did you feel like going to captain?

Speaker 2: 23:51

Well, since I went to Seagerville, it was one of the quietest, lowest, I'd say low-key facilities I've ever worked at. The inmates I mean it was almost like a camp with a fence around it. The inmates didn't create any issue. I don't think we used force, but maybe like one time I was there and I had a good warden there. Ron Thompson was my warden and he was excellent. He really taught me the ropes, and so did Bob Jezik, who was my AW. Is it okay to use names on here? Sure, absolutely. I won't say anything negative about anybody and use their name, but I'm talking about positive stuff.

Speaker 1: 24:42

Absolutely.

Speaker 2: 24:44

But these guys were awesome, I mean, and I had lieutenant I about half my lieutenants were great. And then I had some that had been there for so long. They just didn't want to do any work and eventually was able to get everybody behind me and we had an audit there. We used to call them program reviews then, but we got 100% on that audit. So we did really good. Those lieutenants really, uh, came to the challenge and took it up and did a great job.

Speaker 2: 25:18

But again I wasn't there very long. I was only there about 16 months and then went to Lompoc. That's night and day there, because Lompoc at the time, see, we didn't have Florence, we didn't have any of our other new penitentiaries built. So all the West Coast gangbangers Mexican Mafia, Nuestra Familia, even Texas Syndicate were there. But we had a great SIS office.

Speaker 2: 25:52

Martin Lopez was the SIA there and he had been a lieutenant and an officer there his whole career and he knew those inmates like the back of his hand. I mean, if anything ever was going to tick off, he knew about it. But I had a real good AW there too, named George Thomas, and me and him he was AW custody. And again, when I tell you what I learned at Leavenworth, what I learned at Lompoc from Leavenworth was we just walked all day. We didn't spend any time in our office except maybe the end of the day. We were walking and talking with the inmates all day. So anytime there was any issue we knew which inmates we needed to go talk to. And the inmates they weren't snitches or anything, informants, but they would tell us if something was getting cut off.

Speaker 2: 26:54

In my year there we didn't have one murder and prior to that prior to George Thomas and myself being there, we, I think that place experienced a lot of violence. It was probably the only penitentiary in the Bureau where you had Texas Syndicate and Mexican Mafia.

Speaker 1: 27:14

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 27:15

Could get along, because after I left there you never saw TS or Mexican Mafia in the same prison.

Speaker 1: 27:24

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 27:24

They just hated each other. But at that place, for some reason, it worked.

Speaker 1: 27:29

Interesting, yeah, for people that don't know, even with the feds, the West Coast is where the gangs are the most powerful in the US. As far as prison gangs, you know, a lot of them started at San Quentin. The California system is full of them and a lot of those transitioned into the federal system. So most of those inmates who were pushing to go live on the West Coast because that's where their family was, they were probably involved in some of the bigger gangs in the US. So you were dealing with a lot there.

Speaker 2: 27:59

Yeah, and I'll skip a little, but we'll still go in between. But I just wanted to tell you that taught me a lot when I ended up going to USP Florence as a warden, because most of those inmates that I knew at Lompo were at Florence Eventually, were at Florence, yeah, absolutely yeah.

Speaker 1: 28:23

The podcast that's going to come up before you just came out today. I talked about the difference between being a hunter or being prey when you work inside, and you're absolutely right, being out there on the yard being seen, those inmates should be looking to you. You shouldn't be, and I saw this is what brought it up. A few weeks ago I was walking through a jail and the officer was supposed to be watching the housing unit, was in his office on the computer, solitaire, not even looking at what's going on in the housing unit, and you can't run a place that way. Those inmates have to know that you're looking, that you're aware and that you're part of not only the solution for them you know, but that you can be retrusted and respected. That's just that's what I learned from, like Leavenworth and some of the penitentiaries I worked at, and like you said, always to be moving, always to be connecting with those inmates. It just serves you so well over the long term.

Speaker 2: 29:20

Yeah, when I was at Lompoc we had an incident and I believe it had to do with the warden changing the laundry procedures and then the commissary hours and, for some reason, the inmates. There was talk on the yard that they were going to go on a food slash work strike. So when we rang the bell in the morning for everybody to come out to go to chow, nobody came out. So me and mr thomas went to one of the units. There were two, uh, the leader of the mexican mafia and one of the biker members that was, uh, connected with the aryan brotherhood, right in the unit and they looked at us and then turned around and told everybody to go back to work. We didn't have to say anything to him and martin lopez was in there as well, so he was with us. So, just knowing those guys, they knew we would take do the right thing for him.

Speaker 1: 30:23

So they ended up getting everybody back to work within like an hour yeah, this is a people business yeah, you have to be able to connect and communicate with people to work corrections, and you can't do it from the other side of the fence, you know so. So what was the next step for you from?

Speaker 2: 30:43

From there I went to the central office. I was an Assistant Correctional Services Administrator. I was working at the time. I worked under Ray Holt. And then after two years he left, became a warden at Chicago and then Mickey Ray came in and took his place. My job there was basically writing and revising policy and then also training staff at the MSTC and Aurora.

Speaker 2: 31:17

We had another assistant administrator that was stationed at the MSTC so I only went out there training about once every two months for a week. Most of my time was revising policy and assisting captains or lieutenants when they called in about questions about policy or post orders or whatever. But I was also a member of all after action and board of inquiries, that's a director had a had appointed as a result of an escape, homicide, riot, questionable death of an inmate, special housing unit, suicide, things like that.

Speaker 2: 32:03

So I was involved in a lot of those.

Speaker 1: 32:07

Yeah, learned a lot doing that, I'm sure. Oh yeah, um central office and then um what's next associate warden and three rivers okay, back down in texas yep, I spent a lot of time in texas.

Speaker 2: 32:23

I was in the army there and I spent time at like three prisons. Yeah, yeah, that was a. I enjoyed my time there. At Three Rivers we had a very good union. The lieutenants were mostly new there but very energetic, and then we had some game members, but since it was a medium security prison, we didn't really have a lot of problems. I was at sort training once and the warden had to stay back, who was Frank Woods at the time and we had a homicide out in the yard. But that was the only significant incident we ever had. Unfortunately it was just one game member against another, but even serious assaults were pretty minimal at that place.

Speaker 2: 33:21

It was a good place to be in AW. It was a good place to be in AW. It was a good place to learn and supervise the captain for the first time where you're overseeing the captain. Bill Slack was the captain and he was a great communicator with the inmates he had a big impact on the manner in which the inmates really he had a big impact on the manner in which the inmates really respected the staff there, absolutely. Then I went from there back to Leavenworth as an AW.

Speaker 1: 33:58

How was that going home?

Speaker 2: 33:59

That was good. However, Greg Hertzberg, the regional director, I saw him at short training we were at Camp Ripley, I think, in Minnesota, and I went over and talked to him because I'd never met him. I said I really appreciate you sending me to Leavenworth. You know, this is where I started. My parents live, you know, a couple hours, well, an hour away. He said I didn't even know that and he told me don't get comfortable. An hour away he said I didn't even know that.

Speaker 1: 34:30

Don't get comfortable, you won't be here long.

Speaker 2: 34:36

It was kind of weird being there because most of the guys in the Union and a lot of correctional officers knew me back when I was one of their peers. They gave me the respect they were pretty good. But I will tell you this being the warden or an AW or even the captain at Leavenworth, you spend about 70% of your time dealing with union grievances. Yep, yep, yeah, very difficult, very tough guys to work with. They looked out for their staff that were in the union.

Speaker 2: 35:13

I give them credit for that but, it was like we were just totally consumed by dealing with problems there, but and George Thomas there, but, and george thomas, uh no, the captain then was tracy johns. He was the captain when I got there and he left a short time later and then another gentleman came in who had been disciplined in a previous place, came back as the captain, and the other AWs were pretty good Mike Gonzalez, rex Sproul, bill Stubbe and Joe Booker was the warden.

Speaker 2: 35:55

My whole time I was there. I mean, he was there when I showed up and when I left he was there. But I think a few months later he went to Honolulu as a warden when. Honolulu was just built but I enjoyed it there. But I tell you that would have been a tough place to stay for a long time. It's tough, I mean the inmates aren't the problem, it's the union and it's not the staff.

Speaker 2: 36:23

It's the union e-board that creates so many problems and I think if those guys listen to this podcast, they would probably tell me you know, he's right, we were a problem well, they were so set in their ways you know, change was just a possibility and uh, it's still that way in some ways.

Speaker 1: 36:46

Imagine what could have been done. I will say, um, joe booker was my first warden and uh, I learned so much from that guy with the way he treated line staff. Um, I mean, it didn't matter whether you were a co or whether you were, you know, an aw, he walked through and treated everybody the same. And uh, that at florence no, that was at leavenworth when I was.

Speaker 1: 37:10

I started leavenworth in 99 and joe booker was okay yeah, he was the uh warden there and uh such a great and he didn't know I was there.

Speaker 2: 37:20

I was there in 99, okay, that's when I left. I left in 99 and went to cumberland and uh, yeah, I probably left right about time you were coming in I.

Speaker 1: 37:32

I think I started in november of 99 yeah, I left. I think I left in, uh, june or july okay, yeah, so we just almost crossed paths, but yeah he never knew he was a mentor of mine, but I always remembered the lessons and the things I saw with him, and that's a lesson for other people you don't realize the people you're affecting through your actions when you walk through the prison.

Speaker 2: 37:57

Can you hear that lawnmower going?

Speaker 1: 38:01

Not much. Okay, I can barely hear it, it's not messing with the.

Speaker 2: 38:06

Joe Booker had a son that had MS or cerebral palsy. He had a lot of medical issues.

Speaker 2: 38:17

He was off work off and on Joe was, so I filled in as a warden. I can't put into words what it was like to sit in that warden's chair when I had to fill in for him, remembering that I used to be a correctional officer, not only been in that office. One time when jerry o'brien was there he called some of his men who were working on some sis computer programming. I got detailed for like three months, you know, helped the lock shop in the sis office and the SIS office.

Speaker 1: 38:46

And we went in there.

Speaker 2: 38:48

But when I went in there to set up that desk, I looked around and it was almost like you were at the Oval Office in the White House.

Speaker 1: 38:56

I mean that's how it felt I can understand that Absolutely Okay, so where'd you go?

Speaker 2: 39:09

Where'd you take off to next, cumberland? I was a brand new warden at fci cumberland in maryland. Uh, it's kind of a unique place because cumberland is right on the corner where west virginia, maryland and pennsylvania Pennsylvania meet, so it's kind of a community that looks like it's back from the 60s Old homes, hardly any new construction, and the prison was awesome. I mean, they built that place right, they trained the staff right. I believe the warden before me was Mark Henryry and before him it was dennis bidwell and dennis started it. He, he opened it up when it was built and they trained the staff right at that place we had zero issues with inmates none.

Speaker 2: 40:05

We had an occasional use of force or maybe an inmate that was a self-mutilator or something in the special housing unit, but never any issues on the compound. Good staff there, great union, me and the union president actually became pretty good friends after I retired Juan Ramos, and that was a great place to work Awesome.

Speaker 1: 40:32

Good place to start as a warden.

Speaker 2: 40:34

Oh yeah, Perfect.

Speaker 1: 40:35

But I think they made that up by sending you to some other places because you ended up doing some complexes which probably weren't that easy.

Speaker 2: 40:43

Well, I only went to one other complex. I went to florence, I went to the penitentiary. Uh, and let me tell you that, out of all the prisons at florence, you got the penitentiary, you got the supermax adx and you got the fCI and you have a camp. That penitentiary I was was a place that was hopping.

Speaker 1: 41:08

Right.

Speaker 2: 41:09

The supermass is easy Hell. They had like four to five man orders for every inmate coming out of a cell. We got a lot of officers that got tired of doing that. They were bored. Oh, yeah, so they wanted to transfer over to the USP because we had a lot of good programs going. Now that place was hopping.

Speaker 1: 41:30

And.

Speaker 2: 41:30

I took Ray Holt's place and he had changed a lot of procedures in there because he told me when he got there staff were just standing in the corridors looking out on the yard. They wouldn't even go out there. There were so many problems with the inmates. Staff were scared to go out. This first day he just took everybody and they went out in the yard. They went out there every day, just like I was taught when I was a LOMPO with George Thomas and we had some issues with inmates. But we only had one homicide. I was there right at two years and about two and a half years and uh, that was merely. Two inmates got in a cell fight together. They were cellmates and unfortunately one of the inmates died by getting his head hit on the toilet. But we didn't have any significant fraud, but we had so many gangbangers there we had.

Speaker 2: 42:30

MacDapafia, aryan Brotherhood, then a lot of these gangs that had integrated into the BOP back from the early 90s to that time, that were essentially used to be street gangs, the Serranos, 18th Street, a lot of your white supremacy groups, but they all clicked with the big group that was there. The white guys hooked up with the Aryan Brotherhood, all the Hispanics hooked up with the Mexican Mafia and we had many incidents there.

Speaker 2: 43:15

We also have a lot of Native American inmates that I mean a lot like 250, that were sent there and we had visitors with them too. Yeah, but we had to integrate. After I was there, about six months, I had a recall with all the staff, like we do every month, and I told them you know, we can't keep going like this, just responding to emergencies. We've got to start learning how to prevent it. So I had one of my I think it was my emergency preparedness officer, lance Roberts, and a lieutenant and my executive assistant who had just arrived. He was a lieutenant for me at Leavenworth, oscar Acosta. We researched, we sat in offices trying to figure out how we're going to do this, and we basically came up with a system where all the staff had to report everything they saw.

Speaker 2: 44:21

That was anything out of the ordinary on a piece of paper and either call it in to one of the people we had assigned that were taking all the reports, or drop them in a box outside of all the housing units, the captain's office and then the main entrance. And then we assigned a team of like 25 people and they rotated on who would key in these reports and then we'd read them in our daily roll calls. That was the only place I ever worked at where we had a daily roll call. Most places you can't do them because of portal to porthole issues, but the officers couldn't come by, but all the other people could. So what we did is we took that report and we read it to the officers, because we did roll call with the officers by phone.

Speaker 2: 45:13

Right so we would just get them all to call in in the morning or the evening or whenever. We couldn't do it for the morning watch, but they could read call in in the morning or the evening or whenever we couldn't do it for the morning watch but they could read the report in the lieutenant's office. So we were able to knock down our incidents down about 70% because staff were reporting things before they were able to escalate.

Speaker 1: 45:34

Sure.

Speaker 2: 45:34

And that turned out really good. We also expanded a lot of training leadership training for a lot of people that we thought had potential to be supervisors, and then some just training for the line staff, just during annual training. But when we can get, you know, maybe 20 or 30 of them together and have the unit staff relieve them for a couple hours and they'd come to the conference room there up front and we'd give them some training on how to deal with M-AIDS or preventive tactics on uses of force, things like that.

Speaker 2: 46:17

But we were, and then 9-11 hit right when I had been there about four or five months, I believe. I believe I got there in. June. No, I got there in July and you know, two months later, 9-11 hit.

Speaker 1: 46:38

Changed everything.

Speaker 2: 46:39

Yeah, all the inmates were locked down and then, once they were back up again, we were able to continue what we were doing.

Speaker 1: 46:50

Absolutely. What was next for you?

Speaker 2: 46:55

Went from there to regional director.

Speaker 1: 46:57

Regional director.

Speaker 2: 46:58

I would have easily liked to have stayed at Florence. I liked the area, I liked the place. It did take its wear and tear on you. But Ben Hershberg called me and said you know the director's going to call you had a regional director job open in the West. I was sure going to hope. I was sure hoping I was going to go to the North Central so I could stay in the Midwest. But it wasn't meant to be.

Speaker 2: 47:29

But I went there and instituted a lot of the training programs I had instituted when I was at Florence and I had some good wardens there. I spent about two years there and then my son had been involved in an accident when we were in Colorado and he was going through some problems, so we ended up. I asked the director if I could move back here. Well, I was. I was only a year from being able to retire, so me and Bob McFadden at the medical center just switched jobs. I took his job and he took over the regional director job.

Speaker 2: 48:12

I liked the regional director job really did and I liked the area. I did a lot of traveling, as all regional directors do. My biggest challenge was Victorville because we had a brand new complex opening. And the previous regional director had put some people, as the department has, at the penitentiary at Victorville that really weren't ready to assume that those positions. They were good in their job but they never had worked a pen. So those inmates kind of ran over him.

Speaker 2: 48:49

So sure had to replace some people and but it worked out. Yeah, I, I really enjoyed that place and I had an outstanding group of wardens in the West. I wouldn't say we had a couple that ended up moving on and retiring, but man, they were all good.

Speaker 1: 49:10

Yeah, yeah. Well, when you're in those situations and in those busy prisons, that tends to bring out the best in everybody.

Speaker 2: 49:18

It sure does.

Speaker 1: 49:21

Yeah. So what was Springfield? Tell me a little bit about it. That's where you retired from. Well it was weird.

Speaker 2: 49:26

I had been so busy, you know, being at florence and then being a regional director, and I got here at the med center and that place was so quiet. You know we had an AW that was in charge of medical mental health. Hang on, let me close my door.

Speaker 2: 49:55

Oh yeah, we had aws over operations, programs, medical and mental health. Right, we have four aws and I wondered like why do we have so many aws? And after I was there about two months and I four AWs. That's crazy. And I wondered like why do we have so many AWs? And after I was there about two months, then I figured out why.

Speaker 2: 50:25

Yeah, I mean they handled, you know, the programs and operation AWs. That was easy. But that metal, that medical AW, it wasn't a medical by profession. Rod Chandler, yep, randy Brandy, jeff Cougar was programs.

Speaker 1: 50:49

Yep.

Speaker 2: 50:50

Kathy Lineweaver had operations and then the mental health AW was vacant, but who was filling in was our chief psychologist over mental health.

Speaker 1: 51:04

Right.

Speaker 2: 51:06

But I'm telling you, it wasn't the medical side of Springfield that was unique, it was the mental health.

Speaker 1: 51:14

Yeah, yeah, people don't know Poor inmate, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 51:21

People don't know, poor inmate. I remember we had that one unit and I don't remember which one it was called, but it was the low-functioning inmates who relied on the fifth-grade level almost. I mean, they would like color pictures in their cell and they had such severe mental health issues, psychological issues, highly medicated. But I'm telling you, I always wondered like, why were those guys in prison? What kind of judge would send those guys to prison? Because most of those guys weren't doing a lot of time. Then we had in that same unit we had inmates that were self-mutilators.

Speaker 1: 52:10

Yep.

Speaker 2: 52:10

Took pencils in their stomach, pulled their one guy pulled his eyeballs out.

Speaker 1: 52:16

Yep.

Speaker 2: 52:18

I got there and he had already done it but, they had him online, constant supervision, with a camera in his cell and a nurse outside of his cell, and then another officer watching the camera in the unit wasn't just his cell but other ones. But then, a lot of self-mutilators, you know, and then most of those guys were doing it so they could go to an outside hospital and get drugs like painkillers, you know opiates, morphine.

Speaker 2: 52:49

And then they'd come back and then we put an order like no pencils in the cell, no eating utensils. But one officer would accidentally give him a spork or something and next thing you know it's in the guy's throat, or he's cut his arm open or he's stuck it in his you know, in his stomach or in his belly button. Oh my gosh, that was quite a learning experience.

Speaker 1: 53:21

Yeah, you think you've seen it all until you go to Springfield.

Speaker 2: 53:25

And what's ironic about the place is the inmates don't create any problem, other than the guys that are low-functioning and the psychotropic medicated inmates, but the general inmates that are there for general population, and even the inmates that are in medical that are being treated and then when their treatment is done, they're sent back to their parent facility those guys were just so appreciative all the nurses and the doctors. There was never an issue with inmates. I mean, the only issue you'd ever have with inmates, as you might imagine, is the ones that had mental health issues.

Speaker 1: 54:08

Yeah, it's sad that that's where our country puts some of those guys. A few of them needed to have been there. I mean, there were some violent people with violent tendencies, but some of them, like you said, were coloring pictures and, uh, I once saw two guys who, who couldn't communicate neither one of them could communicate their wishes and stuff and they were sitting at a picnic table on the yard talking to each other in almost two different languages no they were enjoying the connection, you could tell, and I always wondered if you know if they were out on the street, could they even get that?

Speaker 1: 54:44

you know it's sad we take care of that with our prisons now, but uh, yeah, that's what we deal with. Almost what do you think 89, probably 90, of the use of forces at springfield are in the mental health unit?

Speaker 2: 54:58

yep yeah, so and almost all that is dictated by a doctor yeah, psychiatrist, psychologist because they don't want to do it either, but they're doing for the protection of the inmate or forced medication or something like that. Mainline was probably the most unique experience of any mainline I've ever been to. It was at Springfield, because all the inmates are under-medicated or over-medicated. You'd see them and they'd talk to you. The staff really did a good job. They did as good a job as they could do. You know, yeah, yeah, we only had one high profile inmate there. Everybody in the community when I they tell, I tell them you know, they asked me like you work there and they said you probably got all kinds of stories to tell about. The only guy we had there that was high profile was Sheik Rahman.

Speaker 2: 56:00

Yeah, blind sheep, yeah, from the First World Trade Center, the Holland Tunnel conspiracy, bombing, and he was blind, he didn't, and then he got cancer. I think he had liver and pancreatic cancer and he ended up getting transferred to the medical center in butner right, right and when I left short time after I left that. That guy that shot gabby gifford in arizona gloffner yeah, he ended up going to springfield, but I was gone by then, yeah I was there almost 12 years in springfield, so I I was.

Speaker 1: 56:38

I started, matter of fact, when I came into springfield, uh, a bunch of stuff that just happened on three building and nobody wanted to work there because that's where god he was at and since I was this new kid, I ended up the first nine months working that floor, uh. But yeah, we saw him and, uh, the pajama don, I can't remember his name, yeah, yeah, I know you're talking about. He was trying to convince everybody he was crazy, but he was one of the big gangsters he's a guy.

Speaker 2: 57:05

Before he got busted he'd walk around town in his pajamas yeah, yeah, it was an interesting place to work. For sure, I think there was an officer there, or a counselor that ended up getting busted for giving God some kind of sensitive information? Were you there then?

Speaker 1: 57:28

That was when I showed up.

Speaker 2: 57:29

Okay.

Speaker 1: 57:32

The FBI had put a mic or whatever in the cell, so they caught a couple of staff saying and doing things that they weren't supposed to do. One of them had brought in a pizza. I don't remember, I mean, I wasn't there.

Speaker 2: 57:47

Well, there was another incident. Now I wasn't there this happened before, but I heard about it from the warden, who was there before Bill Hedrick. He was there a long time and he told me there was a counselor who got busted for giving Gotti some information on his separatists.

Speaker 1: 58:08

You know someone's got to be testified against him.

Speaker 2: 58:12

I don't know what they gave him if he just told them who they were or just said there were some guys or whatever. But that counselor ended up getting arrested by the FBI, but I don't know whatever happened about it Right?

Speaker 1: 58:25

Yeah, yeah, for people that don't know inmates inside prison, we will list separaties. Those are two inmates that shouldn't be in contact with each other, either because one turned evidence or because of gang reasons or something else. But for an inmate to find out who his separatees are, then he could put a hit out on them. So that was a very bad thing, absolutely.

Speaker 2: 58:49

Well, one thing we had good in the Bureau if it was an inmate that was a witness, security inmate, a WITSEC, they wouldn't put his name in your computer. You had to call the WITSEC department in DC to even find out if they would even give you his name.

Speaker 2: 59:08

And the only people who could get that would be like the case manager and the warden and the AW, I mean, but you couldn't even get that. So I doubt if those separatists that were on Dottie were probably just guys. He knew that were his separatists. I imagine they weren't like witch sects or anything like that, but it was still a problem.

Speaker 1: 59:30

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So you finished out your time at Federal Medical Center and I know you didn't quit there. You're still very active in corrections, so tell me what you're, what you've done since.

Speaker 2: 59:43

Well, what was weird is, uh, I only wanted to spend a year there and then retire. But I had been in touch with Ron Thompson and he was working for CCA at the time and I asked him do you have anything in any positions with CCA? That might not be too far away? I said I'd be interested in that. I called him about three months before I retired. I hadn't even thought of retiring, but I called him and it turned out to be three months before I retired.

Speaker 2: 1:00:14

And he said no, but let me check. I'll get in touch with you if something comes up. Then he calls me. I'm out fishing on my boat on table rock lake and he says I have a warden job, but it's not very close, it's in ohio.

Speaker 2: 1:00:31

I said, oh my gosh, youngstown, ohio. But what's weird about the private sector is when they recruit you, they can offer you a variety of different incentives. They don't just say we're going to give you the job and this is what your pay is. You can negotiate your salary. You can negotiate if they're going to pay for you to come home or travel or whatever, and even give you a vehicle. So I told him the salary wasn't as big an issue as being able to come home at least once every two weeks. Fly back, because it was so far to drive, yeah yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:01:18

So he told me we'll pay for you to fly back and forth springfield on a weekend once a month, but if you want to do it more often you'll just have to pay for it. And then I said, well, can I get a vehicle? So I put all wear and tear on my truck. They gave me a van there. They didn't give me some nice sedan, but they gave me a van. But hell, I was fine with that, yeah. And then the salary was about the same as what I was making being retired. So I liked that, yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:01:48

But my daughter had just had a baby and we had a brand new granddaughter and you know, there's no way my wife was going to move to oh. So after about a year and a half of doing that, I just decided that was it. So I came back here. But while I was in Ohio, somebody called me in the BOP and asked me if I wanted to be an expert witness in a case for the state's attorney's office in Hawaii. And I said, well, I've never been an expert witness, I don't even know what to do. And uh, one of the deputy attorney generals for hawaii called me and ron thompson, let me do it on the side.

Speaker 2: 1:02:35

He said you can't do any of that at work, of course you can do it at night and, and if we've got to travel you just need to take vacation. So I did that case and then when I eventually came back here and retired, I started my business of that, simcoe Correctional Consulting LLC. But in the midst of this, a guy I used to be a warden with he was at Fort Worth. God, I can't think of his name off the top of my head, but he was like the managing director of Cornell Companies Corrections. Mike Calabiano was like the VP, but it wasn't him that called me. It was this other guy I can't think of his name, but it'll come to me, I think. And they said they had a job in Oklahoma and that was only like five, six hour drives.

Speaker 2: 1:03:26

I said I'll go up there and do it. He said we only need you up here for like a year or so because the guy we were going to promote isn't really ready, but he might be after a year or so. So, but it might be after a year or so. So I said that's perfect. I don't want to do this permanently anyway. So I went up there and that place was fun to work at. We had Arizona State inmates for the contract and they were low security.

Speaker 2: 1:03:52

Those guys were nothing. Staff were really good. You know, in private corrections, you know there's no requirement that staff have to have like a degree or law enforcement background. We were hiring people that worked at Walmart or selling cars. People were laid off from their jobs and these people just worked hard. Once you trained them right, they did a great job. And it was the same when I was in ohio but, I liked both those jobs, but I did that for a year and then geo bought out cornell corrections yeah and geo says well, we can keep you, but we're gonna.

Speaker 2: 1:04:35

We only have a vacancy in Pecos Texas. I said that's fine, I don't want to go to Pecos Texas, so I'm just coming back. So then that was the end of my warden, possessions and corrections career, where I worked at a facility or at a region or something, and then I just I've been doing this expert witness work ever since.

Speaker 1: 1:04:59

Yeah, I got to back up just a little because you said something very interesting that that guy told you they only needed you for a year because they had a person who wasn't ready. You know, I think that's something that as administrative, when you're in the administration, we don't often think about, is taking that time sometimes to make sure somebody's ready and allowing them. I read an article the other day is what why? That hit me so interesting? And it said if they're not ready, don't just wait it out, but give them projects, and a project that's going to build up that leader to where you need them, and I think that gets missed a lot. I'm so interested that that guy recognized that and said that you know what I'm saying.

Speaker 2: 1:05:47

Well, when I was regional director and I knew this when I was a warden as well a lot of people were promoted that weren't ready, Right, and almost every time they failed. That weren't ready and almost every time they failed. They were either promoted because they were good friends with the regional director or somebody in the central office or because they wanted to push a certain minority, because we didn't have very many minorities of a certain group in executive possession.

Speaker 2: 1:06:19

But, unfortunately, people were putting jobs that they weren't prepared for and most of the time they struggled.

Speaker 1: 1:06:27

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:06:28

And if they didn't fail, a lot of times we would send them to another facility that was maybe lower security.

Speaker 2: 1:06:36

Give me an example maybe lower security. Give me an example. I won't mention his name, but there was a captain that was out in the West and he was at a penitentiary and he got sent from there to AW custody at Leavenworth and that place ran him ragged. But it was because the warden was one of those wardens who just sat in his office all the time. So basically the SAW custody had to do everything that the warden should have been doing.

Speaker 2: 1:07:11

And he struggled and he got in a little bit of trouble but he ended up getting sent to a regional office or a central office in some position, so he was able to survive it. Yeah, that was exactly true, because when I was going to Oklahoma, that private prison in Hinton it was Hinton, oklahoma.

Speaker 1: 1:07:30

Hinton.

Speaker 2: 1:07:30

Correctional Facility. I think they had already told this guy they were going to make him the warden, and I don't think he was even ready to do it he didn't want to. So when they called me I don't know if I called the guy or he called me or we were emailing or something before but he said you know it's ironic, you know we have a guy we were thinking about promoting, but we don't think he's really ready and if you could come in and teach him some more, and then maybe he can take your job when you leave.

Speaker 2: 1:08:07

And I said well, I don't really want to do it that long anyway, that would be perfect. But he ended up getting promoted to a warden at another place while I was still there, so he didn't get to stay there. But when Gio took over, they well also the contract ran out. Arizona governor was getting a lot of flack from the families of inmates that were in that prison.

Speaker 2: 1:08:34

They had to drive so far to visit them and the governor just told the secretary of corrections bring all the inmates back, bring them back. So it was going to close anyway. So I think that place they closed for almost two years before they reopened it and I don't know what inmates are there now it was closed.

Speaker 1: 1:08:58

I went out there. It was closed again three years ago. I taught a pepper ball class out there a couple of years, three years ago.

Speaker 2: 1:09:05

So a lot of people don't know this about private corrections. It's based on what inmates you have. That's how people get paid wow, yes, we had arizona inmates and that was a pretty high paying contract. But the best contracts were bureau of presence inmates, deportable, deportable Aliens, marshals inmates and ICE inmates.

Speaker 1: 1:09:33

Interesting.

Speaker 2: 1:09:35

But see like when I was in Ohio we had Bureau of Prisons and Marshal inmates. We had about 70-30. And these were Deportable Aliens and US Marshal pre-trial guys. Since we had a Bureau of Prison contract. Mostly those officers made a lot of money in Ohio. When I got to Oklahoma they were making about 30% less.

Speaker 2: 1:10:04

But the staff told me, before we had Arizona inmates, we had state of Oklahoma inmates in there and those officers were being paid about half of what they were paying then, Because the per diem rate is how the staff get paid. Right Now you're not going to pay an officer, you know $20 an hour when the per diem rate is like 26 bucks.

Speaker 1: 1:10:29

Right.

Speaker 2: 1:10:29

Like most, per diem rates back when I worked in Ohio were over $100 a day per inmate.

Speaker 1: 1:10:37

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2: 1:10:38

And when I got to the Oklahoma prison we had Arizona state inmates. It was like $56. Right, the state of Oklahoma, they were paying like $25. So that doesn't mean the officers get $25 an hour. They need about 30% of that. So they were making like just barely above minimum wage, and they wondered then why they had so many staff that were corrupt. Oh yeah, they're not making no money. They're bringing cigarettes into the inmates, cell phones, stuff like that.

Speaker 1: 1:11:13

Wow, what a mess. So tell me a little bit more and I'm curious, I've actually had a couple of people approach me and I haven't taken one of the uh jobs. But tell me a little bit more about being a expert witness. What does that entail and what do you do there?

Speaker 2: 1:11:29

what? What I do now? When I did the first case in Hawaii, I was a defense expert for the state. What had happened is there was an inmate that was taken on a med trip in the local community on the big island, got out of the van, tried to take the officer's gun Him and the officer wrestled, he didn't get the gun. He started walking down the street and the officer told him to halt and he didn't and he shot him and killed him so the family hired a lawyer to sue the state.

Speaker 2: 1:12:05

Well, they lost. Eventually, the lawyer just decided not to pursue it.

Speaker 1: 1:12:11

So I investigated.

Speaker 2: 1:12:12

I got all the. Basically, what happens is you get all the documents from the side you're working on whether you're working for the plaintiff or the defendant and usually what happens one side is going to settle. I rarely have to testify or travel. But what I ended up doing was after that and I was still working there in Ohio I came back here and started doing this a little more frequently. I developed a website, got a business license, but I never really marketed a lot. Well, in the last two years I decided I'm going to market this a lot and see if it's going to improve my business and it really has. But what I do? I do any case involving jails, prisons, corrections, custody and anything that falls in there. Anything I do suicides. I do both sides. I was told a long time ago it's best to split your time. Don't just be a plaintiff expert, don't be a defense expert. Do both sides so they know you're impartial, interesting. Most of my cases are wrongful deaths in jail, suicides, drug overdoses, excessive use of force, homicides, on occasion with gang.

Speaker 2: 1:13:48

I've worked for the State of Arizona Department of Corrections but not really DOC, more the State Attorney General. They're the ones that hire the experts and I was their defense expert for many cases for a while and then, because they have a policy in Arizona where they can't use employees or retirees as experts, they've got to use somebody from the outside.

Speaker 2: 1:14:16

They don't want somebody that knows about everything, and then you won't be a good expert in court. But I do both sides. From law firms that are suing a jail, I will get a call from a jail that needs an expert to defend them, sure. So I do it at both directions and I am able, based on my experience in almost every case, to lay a set of facts and write a report and come up with a conclusion that can almost substantiate both sides of an argument.

Speaker 1: 1:15:01

Right.

Speaker 2: 1:15:02

That's because of what I've done. Now, if I was just some person who got a college degree in law enforcement, you would just basically do what you think is right. But, based on experience, you can find little intricacies to any case, based on what side you're representing.

Speaker 1: 1:15:25

Sure, and you've seen it all, from correctional officer at the very beginning, regional manager or regional director. I mean, you've seen everything in between. So it's not a one-sided view for you, is it?

Speaker 2: 1:15:40

No, I've also done cases where staff have been involved in abusive inmates like sexual relationships or rape. I've done those cases. I've also helped some other, some bureau staff, that were struggling with getting their husband's retirement.

Speaker 2: 1:16:01

There was a woman that I used to work for me in Colorado whose husband passed away from cancer and he was a warden whose husband passed away from cancer and he was a warden and an inmate alleged that an officer had sex with her and he was the warden and he got in some trouble but they never did substantiate the case. So when he retired he was getting his retirement and then when he died, the government wasn't going to give his wife his portion of retirement because he died. When he died there was still something pending.

Speaker 2: 1:16:47

So I was able to call some people I know, some US attorney's offices, and try to get some help on what to do and ultimately we got them to send a letter that says there's nothing pending, and then his retirement came to her. So I do that rarely, but I usually help anybody that I've known in the past if they have a problem.

Speaker 1: 1:17:15

Sure.

Speaker 2: 1:17:15

I've done a couple of cases of officers in the BOP that were being either prosecuted or administratively disciplined for use of force on an inmate. I haven't done one of those in about four or five years. There was an officer in Elkton who got in some trouble and he hired a local attorney and the local attorney ended up calling me. I did that case for a while, right.

Speaker 2: 1:17:43

But he had a lot of uses of forces in his background. He probably needs to slow down. That's what I told him on the phone. He needs to slow down. That's what I told him on the phone. He needs to slow down a little, because you're not going to keep getting out of these all the time.

Speaker 1: 1:17:58

And when you're talking about a lot of use of forces, you're talking about a lot of immediate use of forces. Yeah, because calculated is a whole different world. I've probably got hundreds of calculated behind me, but few immediates, yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:18:11

Yeah, I just did a case. Well, I'm still on the case. The case is still pending, but I can't give you all the details, but I can tell you one thing Is the some jails staff think resorting to force is like their first option.

Speaker 2: 1:18:33

So the confrontation avoidance you know, like we were taught talk to the inmate, try to find somebody that knows him, even another inmate you can get from population. Bring him to the front of the cell. Talk to the guy. I mean that would be rare and few and far between, but get somebody that has rapport with him before you have to go in there. And you know, ultimately this inmate died after multiple uses of forces. Now, whether he died from the use of force we'll never know, but it's like that's the first step used for us.

Speaker 2: 1:19:17

But many times and you know what I do, in a lot of cases, since we had ACA, standards were basically adapted from Bureau of Prisons policy. I pull up BOP policy on a lot of cases. I do because that's a national standard. I'll get the ACA guideline Because these jails, some of them aren't even ACA accredited. You know they don't even try. I've got another case that's pending where two employees at the Iowa State Prison were murdered by an inmate who tried to escape through the infirmary and he couldn't get out and then he killed a nurse and a CO.

Speaker 2: 1:19:59

And there's an attorney that's representing the family that's suing the Iowa Department of Corrections and get some money out of them.

Speaker 1: 1:20:09

Yeah, and it wasn't something that came along early with me because I enjoyed. I enjoyed getting stacked up and going in the cell when I was younger. Uh, it took me a while to kind of grow up and figure out that it wasn't not only safer for the inmates but it was safer for the staff. If we could, if we could deescalate, if we could step back and resolve it.

Speaker 2: 1:20:29

I can't tell you how many times I experienced staff getting injured when I was at Leavenworth. When we did use of forces without any less lethal devices, the only thing we had when I started was a stun gun. And they never used that.

Speaker 2: 1:20:49

They just opened the door and you went in there and restrained the inmate and usually the staff got hurt worse than the inmate yeah because somebody would fall down or something and somebody would step on them or fall over on them yeah, I can't tell you how many times I've hit this right knee on a toilet. Oh yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:21:12

You know. But yeah, it's important that we get that out there and I teach this in my classes De-escalation is a win and we've got to get that in our mind, you know, because somehow we think that's losing if we don't get to go through the door. But it's not, it's winning Nobody gets hurt, but it's not, it's winning. Nobody gets hurt, inmate staff. But well, joe, it's been a pleasure talking to you today.

Speaker 1: 1:21:35

I learned so much and um, I've got, uh, you want me to put um, your company website there and your email on the notes. Sure, Yep, Uh, if somebody wants to contact you, what is your email?

Speaker 2: 1:21:51

It's on there. It's joe at simcoe1.com. Hope you have a great day you too. Bud Take care, Thank you.