82: Legacies and Innovations in WV Corrections - Interview w/Commissioner William Marshall

In this episode, I speak with Commissioner William Marshall and get an inside look at the West Virginia Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation.  We learn about his path from State Police to Corrections Commissioner.  We discuss the department's evolution into more training, enhanced career paths, and the future of corrections. 

We also discuss the West Virginia Department of Corrections rebranding initiatives, which include a new logo and enhanced public relations. These efforts signify a fresh commitment to the community and the department's visibility.

As we explore the department's history and future, we learn about the legacy of the annual Mock Riot event, hosted in West Virginia, which is a cornerstone for training and networking among correctional professionals. It's not merely an event, but a congregation of experts from across the globe, where real-world scenarios are simulated, strategies are exchanged, and camaraderie is built. The Mock Riot stands as a testament to the relentless pursuit of excellence and preparedness in the field.

West Virginia Division of Corrections and Rehabilitation - https://dcr.wv.gov/

The MOCK Riot - https://www.mockprisonriot.org/

Desert Waters - https://desertwaters.com/

PepperBall
From crowd control to cell extractions, the PepperBall system is the safe, non-lethal option.

OMNI
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Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:35

In more than 28 years of corrections, I have used or supervised Pepperball hundreds of times. Now. As a master instructor for Pepperball, I teach others about the versatility and effectiveness of this Pepperball system. From cell extractions to disturbances on the rec yard, pepperball is the first option in my correctional toolbox. One of the most dangerous times for officers is during cell extractions. One of the most dangerous times for officers is during cell extractions.

Speaker 1: 1:00

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Speaker 2: 1:56

William, I'm doing well. It's great to be on here. I missed you at the mock riot last year and I know you were on site there and having your podcast on site. I missed out on an opportunity. I'd been a commissioner for just a matter of weeks so, as you can imagine, I was taking a lot on and completely missed on what you were doing there, and ever since then I've been looking forward to being on with you.

Speaker 1: 2:18

I appreciate that. I'm interested to hear your perspective and hear what's going on in West Virginia. You know, I don't. I think we'll we might start this a little bit different. Normally I start at the beginning, but I want to talk a little bit about the mock riot since we're talking about it. You know, that's kind of my. What I've seen through the West Virginia Department of Corrections is all the great people there. I mean I've made some wonderful friends over the last few years who run that thing and it's such a unique thing. Tell me a little bit about what your part in that is and how that runs for you guys.

Speaker 2: 2:50

Well, I'll be honest with you, I had no idea that it even existed, you know, in my previous career, and so 2018 was the first year I was able to participate in the mock ride. I was under I was the commissioner for juvenile services back then an assistant commissioner for juvenile services and so I was able to attend and I'm like I was blown away by this event. You know all of the different countries and participants that come from all over the not just the country, but the world to participate in this competition and these demonstrations and all the vendors and whatnot. I was completely just blown away by the whole thing and it's got to be the best kept secret in West Virginia because I'm like you know. I mean, I was talking to people that should have known all about this and they had no idea what I was talking about. So I just go on and on about the event and this year in particular, we had 16 different countries that participated in our Mark Prison Right competition and we also had 36 different states around the United States that participated, and so we surpassed 1,200 either participants or observers this year for the Mark Wright, which is an amazing number, for you know little Moundsville, west Virginia, but you know that's where the West Virginia prison system started and you know, back in the 1860s, and so it's like our Fenway Park or our Rigby Field, whatever you want to call it.

Speaker 2: 4:16

It's a tremendous facility for us. There's so much history there and it's a lot like the facility that you all have in Missouri that you all do some tours and things with as well, and so it's just an iconic, historic facility. I just love all the history and the nostalgia behind it. But all those individuals come in from all around the world and they participate in scenarios and competitions whether it be obstacle courses and shooting competitions and scenario-based situations where they can do sale extractions and all those kinds of things and it's really a tremendous opportunity to network with everyone, to meet several vendors and see what's out there technology-wise.

Speaker 2: 4:57

And our team, our West Virginia team, quit competing a number of years back, so now what they do is they help train, they help advance the teams that have been there that maybe are trying to do some things a little bit different or try to learn a new trade or a new trick, a new way of doing things. I'm really, really proud of them and the way they do, how they help run the event. It's just amazing and I get something out of it every year. It's been great.

Speaker 1: 5:26

Yeah, while you mention it, I've got to give a shout out to your instructor cadre there, because they dress up as inmates and those poor guys they're the inmate in scenario after scenario. They've got to be taken to Advil at the end of the week.

Speaker 2: 5:40

Hey, that's not for the faint of heart there. I'm telling you, there was a situation there. I was watching and I mean one of the teams, they put one of these volunteers to the ground. I mean put them down hard. And they get up and they realize it's a woman and they're like, oh, we're sorry. She's like oh no, I'm all about it. I'm here, I want to help you guys, I want to do this and I'm thinking you know what you know. So I mean everybody's so into it and you know when they do the canine demonstrations and the drone demonstrations.

Speaker 2: 6:08

There's just so many cool and interesting things that it really does show you know how well we all do things and it really gives you an idea of you know. When I talk to a group from New Zealand, they have the same issues that we have and so it just kind of connects everybody, kind of brings everybody together and helps you realize we're not in this alone. We got you know this is not only a national thing, but it's a universal thing, and so we always get something great out of it and I enjoy it. I can't and now that I'm commissioner I've had two mock rides under my belt uh, as commissioner, I can't. I mean, I just love it. I can't say enough about it.

Speaker 1: 6:42

Yeah, and you're. I know I've talked to guys and seen guys. They want to go there. So bad it's kind of. You know some people compare it to the shot show of corrections. But you know Las Vegas is all glitzy and glamor and stuff and I know teams that have camped in the campgrounds so that they could afford, you know to, to go to the mock right because it's so important and you just don't get to do that stuff everywhere yeah, this, these are.

Speaker 2: 7:05

This is for the grinders, right? I mean, this is for the guys that want to put it to you know, want to put, you know, the rubber on the road, man. I mean, they want to get out there and find out what it's all about. You know, get down into the trenches and, um, yeah, I mean there's not a lot of glitz and glamour. But I'll tell you what there's a lot of super people there that you're going to meet great family.

Speaker 1: 7:23

And a shout out to uh sharon and ronnie too. You know they're outstanding.

Speaker 2: 7:27

Yeah, sharon is uh she. She handles everything so smoothly for me, sharon gowdy, and she makes sure that we're all taken care of every year. I mean, she just does it so seamlessly. We, we kind of take it for granted. To be honest with you. Ronnie Williams and Steve Caudill and their team, their special ops team, and Russ Matheny, and those guys they just do an amazing job. They make it look so easy, but I know it's not.

Speaker 1: 7:49

Yeah, there's a lot going on behind the scenes. How many years is this now? Is it 20?

Speaker 2: 8:03

Well, I mean, yeah, I think it's like 20. Let me see, I think it's twenty seven or twenty eight, because I've got a shirt that says twenty five years on it A few years back, and so I know the Mark Wright's been going on for for close to 30 years and so I know we've been hosting it, you know, for several years and we've got dates already booked all the way up through twenty twenty seven and so we're looking forward to hope to continue that and hopefully I'm still around as commissioner to enjoy that.

Speaker 1: 8:21

Absolutely Well. Congratulations on the success of that and I will see you there again next year. It's always the highlight of my year. Yeah me too.

Speaker 2: 8:30

I love it. It's like I mean, it's work, but it's not, you know, it's just it's so enjoyable, and of course, that's what we do. A lot of things that we do is enjoyable. It don't feel like work, but, yeah, I look forward to it as well.

Speaker 1: 8:46

Sure. So let me, let me learn a little bit about you. I normally just get on here and I just have a conversation, but I like to find out where people came from. Where'd you grow up at? You know what got you into law enforcement initially?

Speaker 2: 8:54

So I grew up in Mason County, west Virginia, which you know, which is a small county. It's a large square mileage county but it's just a lot of small towns. I went to Wahama High School and I graduated Wahama High School. I attended Marshall University and Partnersburg Community College. Prior to going to Marshall University, I earned my degree in criminal justice. From there I did some work in the private sector, done a couple of different things, and then ended up at the state police academy.

Speaker 2: 9:25

So my dad was a was a trooper for a short period of time early in his career and he went back to being a school teacher and then ended up retiring as a Methodist minister. And so you know, back in those days there wasn't all of the true crime documentaries and dramas and stuff, but there was a new show out called Cops and so that kind of took my kind of, got my attention. I thought, hey, this looks pretty cool. I actually went to school to be a school teacher. I wanted to teach biology and I wanted to coach is really what I wanted to do. And so I ended up marrying a school teacher and I've got one of my. One of my daughters is she's a biology major, so she carried the weight in that regards.

Speaker 2: 10:06

Actually she lives out near you right now and and so I went to the State Police Academy in 1992 and graduated in 93 and was stationed in Huntington, west Virginia, which is the home of Marshall University. So I was kind of, you know, kind of really felt at home. My parents had spent time at Marshall, my mother was a nursing student there at the St Mary's School of Nursing, and my dad earned his degree through Marshall as well. So I kind of went back home. You know, it felt like a second home to me and from there my career just kind of took off and I had a lot of great people around me and spent some time in the undercover unit, spent some time at the department headquarters 25 years and 10 days. I enjoyed every single day of it and some days were tougher than others, but I truly enjoyed my career.

Speaker 1: 10:55

So is West Virginia and Missouri. The state police are not only the highway patrol, but they also do like all the major crimes for the state. Is it the same there?

Speaker 2: 11:03

State police in West Virginia do it all. We're turnkey, start to finish. We're our own detectives, we're our own crime scene techs, we're our own evidence technicians, traffic enforcement with DU, irs and along with the. You know checkpoints and you know grant patrols. Yeah, we do it all. And that's one thing that intrigued me about state police is I was going to be able to learn how to do every aspect of the, of the of the job in state police and it really helped me.

Speaker 2: 11:31

Going to a large post in Huntington we were really, really busy, but it was really great for me to be able to learn quickly. Went down with a couple of other classmates out of my class that we've become really good friends and still great friends to this day and so you know it helps you learn and, like you said, that healthy competition that you get within each other to make sure that you don't get you know you don't get less than the other guy gets. You want to learn as much as they can. It just makes you more well-rounded and it really does make a huge difference when you go to a busier post. I spent some time on a smaller post. I found myself getting a little bit complacent, a little bit bored maybe, and so I'm always into something. I'm always looking for something more to do, more of a challenge.

Speaker 1: 12:15

I could see that from your bio. You didn't just follow one line, you followed multiple lines up through your career. Tell me about some of those. I know that you did a bunch of presidential details. You worked with the marshals.

Speaker 2: 12:32

Tell me about some of that. So the first undercover, the plainclothes detective job that I took with state police was on the workers' comp fraud unit and so we went after businesses and so forth and corporations that didn't pay their workers' compensation premiums, defrauding the state out of thousands, if not millions, of dollars, and also on individuals that were on workers' compensation that shouldn't have been, that were out cashing checks and so forth. So you had a little bit of covert work there as well. But we were coat and tie about every day. So when someone important, some dignitary of some kind, would come into the state or into the city in Charleston or wherever, well, I had a suit on. So they just said, hey, can you come and help us? Of course I loved it.

Speaker 2: 13:16

I love politics. I don't want to be in politics, but I love the process and everything. So every chance I got I would go get pointed into some sort of a detail with either a presidential candidate or a president, and after a while you're like, wow, all these people that I've met throughout the years is pretty, pretty interesting. So and that kind of led to I did some. I did some of the undercover drug work. I enjoyed that, but I always went back to doing the financial aspect of it, Like we would go in and do the drug work and most of our convictions were coming from, you know, someone that was evading taxes or someone that was embezzling money and things of that nature, the white collar side of the drug trade. I started kind of dipping into that and what I found out was nobody wanted to do that kind of work.

Speaker 2: 13:57

It was just tedious, you know all these numbers and everything and I actually enjoyed it. So I ended up working out of what they call the White Collar Crime Task Force out of the US Attorney's Office in the Southern District here in West Virginia and worked under some really great agents on the federal side, with the IRS, cid and the Marshal Service and so forth, and, you know, learned a lot about embezzlements of money laundering and tax evasion those types of things that really got me excited. Uh, I've really enjoyed working those kinds of cases and, uh, which led to me being able to work with the marshal service whenever we would find a target that we were going to go arrest and I was able to, uh, I was able to be deputized and I was able to go help them hunt for these people that we were looking for, which was a lot of fun as well.

Speaker 2: 14:39

So yeah, that was a great part of my career, a lot of learning in that regard. I then got promoted. I went off to be a post commander I kind of took a break in between there and I accepted a position at headquarters we Deputy Director of Traffic Records, which was kind of another interesting thing for me, with statistics and data and so forth, and we ran the motor vehicle inspection program and the crash reports and everything that has to do with traffic related type of stuff. When it comes to grant monies and things like that, I was able to work on the governor's highway safety program, which was really fun. I mean, there's a lot of interesting things there where we can work with other departments around the state and get them grant money so they can help with their departments and earn some money and then do some traffic work, and so I really enjoyed that and then ended up back in my home county and finished up my career there, cool.

Speaker 1: 15:35

So when you went to college, were you just good at math, or did you take accounting classes?

Speaker 2: 15:41

Well, I'll tell you what I liked. I really liked. I really liked stats. Okay, I'm a sports guy so I loved ERAs and batting averages and shot percentages and things of that nature and that was always kind of my thing. I loved drafting which had a lot of geometry with it and I loved. I thought maybe someday I was going to be a drafting engineer or something. I love drafting jet planes and things of that nature and I really enjoyed that. So I guess I've always been a little bit of a numbers nerd. That's interesting.

Speaker 1: 16:11

I've got a friend that he was an accountant. It's been 20 plus years ago and the FBI apparently contacted him. Would you like to come work for us? And if you know my friends, you're like there's no way he's ever going to be a cop you know and I said really, I said what brought them after you? And he said they told him I could teach an accountant to do police work. I can't teach a policeman to do accountant work. So if you got, those skills, there's definitely places for you.

Speaker 2: 16:39

Well, I think, just with me. I mean, it's just the desire to learn and the interest I had.

Speaker 2: 16:45

I had genuine interest in it, so it made it very easy and, like I said, I had some veteran IRS CID agents who were accountants, who had been hired to the federal side from accounting or from being attorneys or whatever, and so they were able to teach me a lot. I can't imagine I would learn any more in college than I would, than I did, from them, because they were, you know, they were applying what we were learning right. You know right from the beginning on these cases. And really to me, like once you see that clear path in an investigation where you hear the old saying, follow the money, but when you see that clear path as to where this money's going, you know you're looking at the suspicious activity reports and offshore accounts and all that kind of stuff. I mean I was just fascinated by it and I was able to receive some commendations for it and some awards and just really had a lot of success with it, which you know anytime you see success in areas in which you're working hard on, you enjoy that.

Speaker 1: 17:38

Right, right. So during any of those times did you have anything to do with corrections?

Speaker 2: 17:45

I did not. The closest I came to corrections was being depositing somebody through the back door and you go in and you get them cleared and get them processed in, and what's amazing about that is that you truly think you know what's going on in there. And then you get on the corrections side of things and you realize I had no idea what was going on in there, you know. So I had the luxury of being able to place someone in custody, you know, and I got the opportunity to go. I just deposited him and leave and go find the next one. I didn't have to deal with the guy that was aggravated or mad at me, you know. You know for the rest of his time there, you know, and, and as you know, most of the most of these individuals that get detained I mean 99% of the time it's the worst day of their lives, you know, and so it's. It's very traumatic for them as well. And so, but no, I had, no, had no real background in corrections whatsoever. I mean, it really wasn't on my radar.

Speaker 2: 18:39

To be honest with you, when I retired I was going to be a schoolteacher. That's what I was going to be. I was going to retire from state police and go into schoolteaching, and I had been coaching so I thought, well, I could just continue that. Well, my wife, who's a 21, 22-year schoolteacher, classroom schoolteacher, she said I don't think that's for you, honey. All due respect, I don't think. I think you need something with a little bit more juice to it. You know, and I'm like, well, okay, and I took her advice and she was 100% right.

Speaker 1: 19:11

Well, tell me the story. Who was it approached you? How?

Speaker 2: 19:17

did you get started in corrections. So I retired from state police in July of 2017, and a new administration had taken over as governor in the governor's office and they hired as cabinet secretary. They hired a guy by the name of Jeff Sandy who was hired and brought in as the cabinet secretary for, at the time, military affairs and public safety, and so that just so happened to be the guy who I worked with on the White Collar Crime Task Force at the US Attorney's Office. So he brought me and hired me as the criminal investigation director for military affairs, which ended up being over corrections. We did a consolidated investigative unit that would cover all of corrections, and so that's where that started. So I was there long enough to develop the policy, which was just not even a few months, and I was approached by individuals from the governor's office and the cabinet secretary to run juvenile services for the state of West Virginia all the delinquents and detruents and all those sorts of things.

Speaker 2: 20:15

Being a father of five kids of my own and two stepkids, it is intriguing to me because what I had been doing, or what I stepped into, is a lot like what I had been doing for 25 years, so I thought this might be a great opportunity for something new, because I always love working with kids and coaching and building programs and helping them with things. So I thought you know, I told him very clearly I don't know anything about juvenile services and good advice was but you know how to lead people, you'll figure it out. And they were right and I really enjoyed my time at juvenile services and I spent five years there and we had 10 residential facilities and we have what we call youth reporting centers that are around the state. We've now got 22 of them and what those are is those are alternative schoolings for individuals that have been through the system, that are under juvenile jurisdiction, where they're trying to do credit recovery and or, you know, get back into school or get back into society with their diploma or whichever one would come first. So it just so happens that this at the beginning of this school year, my wife said I think I want to help you guys do that. I I've been in the classroom for 21 years, um, you know, dealing with, uh, third, fourth and fifth graders, and so she said I think I'd like to help these high school kids get back on their feet and and and do pretty much what you guys have been doing. And so I said sure, so she'd been on the job. She got the job and she's. She's teaching at the at the one nearest to our home in Wood County, and she's about to finish up her first year. She loves it so.

Speaker 2: 21:45

So I was in charge of those types of programs. You know we had some programs where we started up new programs with substance abuse programmings and counseling programs and just different things to try to get these kids back on their feet, because they really did have I mean, 99% of them have a real shot at getting back into society and having a success. And so we were trying to teach them welding and plumbing and auto mechanics and carpentry and things of those natures and having them actually get their certification for welding and things like that, not a mechanic, so where they can go out and they can get a job if they don't want to go to college or do whatever. So Right, so just kind of spun off from there. And when you know, we consolidated all those prisons, jails, community corrections, juvenile centers, all consolidated together. So I had the opportunity to work around all the other individuals that were running the prisons and jails and juvenile for the community corrections and all those things.

Speaker 2: 22:39

So you know there was a change in leadership. They were looking for a new leader and the first time I said I don't think I'm interested. I like what I'm doing. And the more I thought about it, I had some discussions with my wife and she said, hey, I think this is, I think this is what you need to do. I think this is what you need to do. I think this is your next challenge. She was right. I said hey, listen, I'm smart enough to know what I don't know, but I do know what I've seen over the last five years or so that has worked, that doesn't work, that things that we could do, that we haven't been doing.

Speaker 1: 23:08

Tell me a little bit about that, because I think every correctional officer, I think when we walk through our day we often think what if somebody would have got a hold of that guy before you know he came to jail as an adult? What are you guys? What have you done and what's worked and what could people be doing You're talking about in regards to?

Speaker 2: 23:26

juveniles, Juveniles so yeah.

Speaker 2: 23:28

I think I think the biggest thing for them is to make sure that they know that they still have a chance. They still have an opportunity. You know, unless they've committed a capital crime of some sort, then you know where their life is. Their sentence is probably going to be their life. They have a chance to get back out there to have a successful job, to have a successful family life and just adding more and more counseling to the program, more and more mentoring.

Speaker 2: 23:55

What I tried to tell our corrections officers that work in the juvenile system was look at yourself, see yourself as a coach, as a mentor. Don't look at yourself as a corrections officer. See yourself as a mentor, as a coach, somebody they want to look up to, somebody they want to be like, somebody that they look forward to seeing every day. Don't let it be this regimented. You know you do what I say or else type of stuff. Don't be using the foul language around them, because you know that's part of the rehabilitation to not use foul language, not use bad behavior. Go out there and shoot basketball with them while they're on their break. Go out and throw cornhole with them while they're on their breaks. You know. Be involved in their lives because I mean, being a father, being a former coach, really all these kids want is somebody's attention, somebody to care about them. And really I tell our officers those eight hours that you're there, you need to make that the best eight hours of their day. I mean, you really do. You need to make sure that they get, just like with coaching, make that the best couple of hours of their day. You know, make it enjoyable, make sure they understand, hey, there's life after this their day. You know, make sure, make it enjoyable, make sure they understand, hey, there's life after this. Um, and so you know, I think that the more, more communication, making sure that they continue their education, I think was a big thing.

Speaker 2: 25:03

And adding in all these programs to where, hey, I, I know how to weld, now I know how to fix a car, I know how to how to build a house, you know I do how to put shingles on a roof, I know how to do things like that. And, as you know, the more you're trained and the more you know, the more confident you feel, the better you feel about yourself and the more opportunity you have to do something when you get out. And so, building those programs and then addressing the substance abuse issues that we had. There was no substance abuse programming for the youth other than some counseling. So we really drilled down and got a really substantial substance abuse program for the boys and the girls, because if we weren't addressing that, they may have not been directly the substance abuser, but almost 100% of them are affected by it one way or another, absolutely, whether it's their parents that are users, their grandparents, whoever they're living with, their aunts and uncles, brothers, sisters, whatever. They all can relate to some form or fashion of it.

Speaker 2: 26:05

So when we started doing those types of things and letting them see hey, listen, you guys are pretty good if you just drill down and do this, you know, take the efforts that you were doing to get yourself in trouble and send it in a positive direction. That's what my wife has been able to do. My wife's been able to say hey and and send it in a positive direction. That's what my wife been able to do. My wife's been able to say hey, listen. By the way, jody's her name. I haven't mentioned her name, but but you know it was like you can do this. I mean, look at this, look at this test you just took, you studied for it, you got an A. The one you didn't study for, you got a D. That ought to tell you something you know. Process, uh, being involved, being engaged, caring about what you do, having a genuine concern about what you're doing.

Speaker 1: 26:38

Yeah, I don't think sometimes we understand how much of an effect we have. I had an inmate and he was a young inmate but, uh, probably 2021 at the time and he told me that until he came to jail he had never seen anybody that went to work every day at the same time. You know he didn't grow up that way and his family was on drugs and all kinds of stuff and he was like, yeah, I watch you guys and you come to work every day, every day and things like that we take for granted.

Speaker 2: 27:06

You're 100 right. Like they haven't, like I. I take it as an honor even today, like when some of my wife students will say I want to be like your husband, I want to be like commissioner marsh. I take a lot of pride in that because, listen, if they can get one inspiration from me or from anybody around them to make their life a success, that's what we want, that's truly what we want. But when you say things like that and we say things like that, like if I was to say that to my parents, they'd be like, really, I'm like, yeah, to say that to my parents, they'd be like, really I'm like, yeah, I mean that's what they know, that's what they've never seen anybody hold a solid job. They've never seen anybody, you know, have a driver's license and actually, you know, drive to the grocery store and buy groceries. I mean they've never seen those things.

Speaker 2: 27:49

You know we have kids that I mean they don't even have an opportunity to brush their teeth sometimes. I mean. So we're really trying to make a difference with these kids. And I'll mention while they're incarcerated in residential facilities, they get great medical care, they get great dental care, they get fed, they're clean. You know their days are structured and a lot of them really like the structure, they really grasp onto it. And we've had some of the kids that it's sad to say, but some of these kids have said, hey, can we stay after their sentences up? Can we stay a little longer, you know? So we'll, we'll, we'll work with them and try to find some place for them to go, cause it's not like an adult inmate where you can make sure they have a job and a place to live, home, plan, all that kind of stuff. Sometimes you got to send them right back to where they came from and you're really concerned about them and and uh, and. So you know we, we try real hard to make sure they're, they're uh, they're in the right position.

Speaker 1: 28:42

That's tough. Yeah, Very interesting. Tell me about. Uh, so you took the leap from juveniles for five years and now you're the commissioner. Um, Tell me what that's been like. That's a huge jump.

Speaker 2: 28:57

Well, I tell you, like I said, the biggest thing for me was to know what I didn't know and to surround myself with people that had vast experience, that were good people, that wanted to do the right thing every day. And that was the first key. The second biggest thing that I did was and I still continue to do it I was in the Eastern Panhandle on Friday is to go to these facilities, walk through our facilities, go through each and every one of our facilities. We have 72 facilities if you count the parole offices and the youth reporting centers and so on and so forth. So to go through the prisons, jails, juvenile centers and to walk through there and to see what they deal with each and every day, that's the only way you're going to figure it out.

Speaker 2: 29:41

I can sit here in the office and read emails and look at pictures all day. It doesn't do anything for me. It really does. It just cleans out my inbox. All that does. So when I go to these facilities and I walk the hallways and I talk to the officers and I talk to the unit managers and I talk to the superintendents and I and listen, they're more likely to talk to you face to face than they are. To send you an email, I promise you. And so when I can see firsthand what they do and then see how great most of our people are and the things that they do tremendously well, it's my job to find out. What can I do to help you go further. What can I, what can we do each and every day to make sure that this is fixed so that drive you crazy, that we have enough inmate management tools for you available so you keep these individuals busy, so they can be productive, and so on and so forth. So that was one of the biggest things for me was to go around the facilities, walk through, ask questions.

Speaker 2: 30:31

You know, even when I came in first, came into corrections, I tried to be a good student. I love reading, I love understanding what's going on behind the scenes, and so just being a good student, listening to my people trying to sort out what, what's probably just fussing, and then what's what really needs to be addressed, and so that that takes some time, but, but. But to me it was really just about leadership. I mean, really, it was about giving our people what they needed to do their job, you know, to help with the pay increase, which has been tremendous over the last five or six years. It's really improved and so those types of things really has been difference makers. And I'm always surprised by, when I walk into facility, how happy they are to see me. I'm like, hey, listen, I'm, I'm just here to try to help you guys. I'm the body special and but they're there, they enjoy that, the fact that I'm there and I'm showing interest and I care about what they're doing.

Speaker 1: 31:28

Oh, absolutely, and I applaud you for for doing that. You know, as a correctional officer, we're taught from the beginning to manage by walking around. But then, so and especially, I mean I came out of the Bureau of Prisons, which is a huge agency, but to get the people to come see us without the inmates locked down, without the things going on that go on every day you know, sometimes we have these shows that we put on, basically and uh, but for you to go there and talk to them and face to face, I just applaud that. That's what we need more of.

Speaker 2: 32:01

And I'll tell you, it's really and I don't want to sound selfish, but it's really more about me because I'm trying to learn and I'll tell you what it's important, that I know our people's names and what's important to them and what matters to them. And you know, just like with our superintendents, which are essentially our wardens or superintendents, I want them to know their people. I want them to know that one of their officers has missed three ballgames in a row. I want them to know that they missed their daughter's dance recital last night. I want them to know that. I want to make sure that they make sure those individuals get to those types of things, because it matters.

Speaker 2: 32:37

And so, you know, with our new hiring that we've done lately, it's allowed for us, with our staffing numbers that have increased, it's allowed us to do more and more of those things. But even if we're, even if we're shorthanded, we still got to know what, what you know, what our people need. We need to know about their families and if someone's sick, if they're, you know, whatever it might be, we got to be invested in our people. You know, just just invest in relationships, cause I think that's where everything starts.

Speaker 1: 33:02

Yeah. So tell me a little bit about that, cause I know there's not a jail, there's not a correctional center, there's not a state that's not suffering right now with shortages and overwork of the staff that are there, and I know you guys have done I mean at one time you had the National Guard helping you guys out correct, we did, we did.

Speaker 2: 33:22

And just last week, just 10 days ago we were able to relieve all the National Guard from their obligations to us, which not all at once, I mean we've been trickling down since our legislative session ended in March. We've been kind of eliminating them as we go. We had close to 350 of them in at one time trying to help us out, and I can't say enough about the job they did. They did an amazing job for us. I mean, they brought some structure and professionalism that just can't be matched, and so I greatly appreciate everything that they did, and I'm happy to say that we've hired about 30 of them as full-time officers now Interesting, and so that's been really good, and I think it kind of speaks to what we're doing, because they've been there, they saw what we did and they liked it well enough to stay, and so I thought that was very, very I thought that was impressive. I really appreciated that. But you know, we just we when we started in 2017, when I started off in this, in this sector, the pay was like twenty five thousand dollars a year for corrections, and it was just like. I mean, you know, we got to do something, we got to help these people, and if we want to get great quality candidates and going forward and continue to keep good people, we got to pay them more than that. Well, I'm proud to say that. The starting, if you're starting with no experience whatsoever at all, you're going to start at $40,000 now and within six months, you're at 42.5. Within six months later, you're at 45. And then another year later, you're at 50. So we've almost doubled it within two years of you coming into corrections from what it was in 2017. And that's due to a lot of hard work from leadership and from legislators and the governor's office and everybody included. That's all pulled the rope together and recognized.

Speaker 2: 35:04

As you say not prison guard, prison officer you know we're officers, we're police officers. You know we're doing things right now, like I'm enjoying the fact that we're seeing our officers are doing shop with the cop now. You know we're helping with community food banks, we're doing soup kitchens, we're doing things of that nature. You know we're out there now making those connections and so when you start making those connections, next time that police officer comes through the back door with an arrest, you've got that connection. It might make for a little better exchange there. You and and, uh, and, and we'll get that respect that we deserve.

Speaker 1: 35:39

So yeah, that's so amazing because it's so hard for corrections to get those moments where they get to interact with the public for a couple of years I ran a canine unit and we used to get to go to parades and I remember those few parades, you know, because you were part of the public and they wanted to see the dogs and we passed out coloring pages. You just don't get to do that every day as a correctional officer. You're hidden.

Speaker 2: 36:02

Yeah, and I think you're exactly right and I think it's important because, you know, with my previous career I have troopers or retired troopers that I know all around the state and many of them have become sheriffs in the counties around the state. So I can call them and I can say, hey, I saw where you put in three guys last night in one of our jails. How was your experience? Was you treated fairly? I mean, was it professional? Was the place clean? And you know. So now we're getting these results like hey, man, I even had the you know Lieutenant Colonel from the state police call me recently, said hey, took an arrest to one of your jails this weekend. Fantastic Staff was pro Place, looked great and that's what we're looking for and that also builds that camaraderie, those relationships.

Speaker 2: 36:48

So when we go to court now you know we're wearing a Class A uniform, you know the whole nine yards and so that way when they come in they look professional, they're treated professionally. You know, when the state troopers walk in they're in their Class A uniform, they get a certain amount of respect. I want our people to earn that certain amount of respect because they really deserve it. I mean, they've worked hard and they deserve that amount of respect. So just little things like that has really made a difference in starting to pay off.

Speaker 1: 37:12

Oh, absolutely, and it will. It's going to pay off? Oh, absolutely and it will. It's going to pay dividends. You know, um, I remember when I started at Missouri state pen, my hair was shorter than this and I walked in the first day and Lieutenant said go get a haircut. You know, we, we got our shoes inspected, we got our haircut inspected every day and, uh, there was a certain professionalism and I love seeing the places that are still carrying that along. Absolutely.

Speaker 2: 37:36

Well, there's a, there's a certain, I mean there's a, there's a purpose for the polo shirts and cargo pants at certain times. Okay, so when you go into our facilities now the leadership and so forth you know most likely they're going to be in a tie. The superintendents are plainclothes, but you've got your leadership, your captains, majors, so forth, in uniform. You know they're plainclothes, but you've got your leadership, your captain's, major, so forth, in uniform. You know they earn that rank.

Speaker 2: 37:57

They ought to be proud to wear that rank, you know, in that uniform and when we transport our you know inmates to court or to hospital visits, you know Class A looking. You know looking the part, because you just really got to be professional. Looking if you're going to, you know if you're going to get treated professionally. It professional looking if you're going to you know if you're going to get get treated professionally.

Speaker 1: 38:23

It's like that guy that walks up on the first tee and you don't know if the guy can golf or not, but if he, if he looks like he can.

Speaker 2: 38:24

He's got an advantage already, you know. So you just got to look the part and you got to be ready. And now, where I wear a coat and tie every day, I mean, it's my uniform, that's what I expect them to look that way. So I expect them to look that way, and so I expect myself to look that way.

Speaker 1: 38:36

So what else is going on with the state of West Virginia as far as corrections? Where are you guys headed next? What are some programs that you're working on?

Speaker 2: 38:44

So we've done a. Really we've developed some recruiting teams that have been spread out throughout the region. Each recruiting team has a, they have a team leader and they've done some amazing work. And, as of today, as of January 1st of this year, we've graduated 238 corrections officers and employees from our academy. It's just fantastic. I mean, we were really low in numbers, as was everybody I mentioned earlier out there in the area in which you live. My daughter, my oldest daughter, kyla, is living in Republic, missouri now with her new husband, and so just right out front there is the I guess it's called the prison medical facility or the- federal medical center yeah.

Speaker 2: 39:30

And so big flashing sign out front hiring officers, hiring nurses, so everybody has it. I mentioned earlier I spoke to individuals from Senegal, from New Zealand, from. They all have problems with staff. You know they need to get this stuff because what I mean, what we do and you know this better than anybody I mean it is so unique as to what we do and you know, when we start looking for people to hire, we want to make sure that they completely grasp what we do, because it's not for everybody. I mean, I understand that that you know somebody could come in and say, hey, this isn't for me, I don't think I can do this, and that's okay.

Speaker 2: 40:06

When we consolidated off in 2018, we went to a pre-service academy where we would hire people, send them straight to the academy, and it was a great idea, great concept. State police is like that here. That's what I was accustomed to, but what I was seeing was it just wasn't really taking hold, because what we were doing is because of what we do is so unique. We were training these individuals, spending $18,000, $20,000 on six weeks of the academy, and they'd go to the facility the first week to be like, hey, this isn't for me, I don't know if I can do this, so they walk out the door and, yeah, they walk out the door and that's it.

Speaker 2: 40:42

So what we did was we started them off, bringing them in as a temp, and that way they get some OJT, they get their basic fundamentals. They work with a training officer for the first two, two and a half weeks to see that. So that individual can see do I have what it takes to be a corrections officer, Do I have what it takes to work inside this facility? And it also gives that superintendent the opportunity to see that individual and to observe that individual and say I think they've got what it takes.

Speaker 2: 41:09

You know, I'm not sure this is the right fit for them. Maybe we could look for them in something in administration, you know, maybe in the business office or something like that. And it's really made a huge difference. Our resignations are way down. It's really made a huge difference. And now they can go and get their training, finish up their training the last three and a half, four weeks and then they can graduate and they're ready to go. They can then go back to the facility and use what they've learned and applied it back at the facility and it all starts to make sense for them.

Speaker 2: 41:39

We started doing some different kind of training for our support staff. I didn't see the need for our maintenance or our cook staff or custodians to go to a full-blown corrections officer academy. I didn't see the need for that. They do need to protect themselves and how to do things in the event of something happening in one of our facilities, and they're getting that. We've improved on our criminal investigation division. We've got them where they were going to end-service for corrections officers and I thought, well, they're not corrections officers, they need to know what a corrections officer does, but they need interviews, interrogations, evidence collection, all that kind of stuff. And so this past March was the first in-service for them where they got to have an investigator's in-service, which is really going to pay dividends as well.

Speaker 2: 42:26

We've beefed up our K-9 and our special ops departments. They've done a great job. They're going around working shifts with our individuals at our facilities and so forth, and so that's been a real positive, because all that, what that does, is that brings in that camaraderie. You know that, oh, they're just off their training or they're just, they just come when we need them. Well, they're out there every day now too, pulling the line with all the other individuals. So we just got one thing that I try to emphasize, and the military does a great job. I had two grandfathers, world War II veterans, and they were just the stars in the moon for me. I mean, they were just great men. But what the military does better than anybody else is they develop brothers and sisters. They don't have co-workers and peers, they have brothers and sisters, and when I start selling that to our people, I mean that's your brother, that's your sister, you've got to look out for them.

Speaker 2: 43:19

You've got to take care of them. You've got to have their back. You've got to know when they're having a bad day. You've got to know when they're going down the wrong path. You've got to be there for them and you have a responsibility to them. It's part of our duties and our mission and when we started doing those types of things and just communicating with each other I'm in daily communications with most of my facilities and I've got a new deputy commissioner, a new chief of staff who are doing great work, and I mean just all of those things together. I know I've said a lot, but all of those things together have really mattered as to one big effort, but we're all going in the same direction.

Speaker 2: 43:54

I tell them I won't expect you all to do anything that I wouldn't do myself, and when things get tough, I'm going to be right here with you.

Speaker 1: 44:01

We're going to be right here with you. Unfortunately, I think that almost sounds like a new idea. But when I think back to when I started 30 years ago, when I came into the prison, hr wasn't the people who handled me, you know. They got me hired and then I got handed off to whoever was working that unit and sergeants and lieutenants and senior officers who had no problem dropping and walking by and going hey, this is not the way to do this and this is why. So it almost sounds like you've brought this because there's nobody else inside those walls. When you hit the button, when you make that radio call, people from the outside aren't coming in to save you.

Speaker 2: 44:40

They're not coming.

Speaker 1: 44:40

yeah, yeah, you've got to have the people in there on your side and have that brotherhood. I try to tell everybody I try to tell everybody.

Speaker 2: 44:48

So you know, being a former coach and even playing sports in my in my lifetime, I mean the energy and the juice you get from a full building like a full stadium. I mean just that juice. That I mean that's something special. We don't have that. We play in an empty gym every night. You know we don't have an audience. You know the state police has an audience. I mean you know the police sheriff's department, they have audiences. There's people all around all the time. I mean we play in an empty gym every night and so we have to keep ourselves motivated. We got to look out for ourselves. I mean we have to take care of one another and it's so important.

Speaker 2: 45:23

Another big thing that we did that I would be remiss if I didn't mention is when we consolidated. We didn't really totally consolidate all the policies and you'll know this and coming from SAVE Police, which is completely policy-driven, something they do very well, you know, when you go to a jail that's under DCR and they're still doing jail stuff, well, I'm not doing it the way they do it. That's prison stuff, you know. You know you got to do it together, collectively, and if it's a policy that don't work and don't fit what we're doing.

Speaker 2: 45:51

Well, we'll just kill the policy. We'll develop a new policy. So that's something we've done. We hired a director of policy and compliance. They're coming in. I asked them to do policy audits, and so they've been going around all the facilities and doing policy audits over a couple of days. On the third day they'll have a meeting. I'll attend the exit meetings and the problems that we were having in those, you know, is when they just simply weren't following the policy or there wasn't a policy that was good enough to what they were trying to do.

Speaker 2: 46:17

So we've, we've done a really. We've been really aggressive in combining the policies, making sure they fit, making sure they they, they do what's right and then everybody follows them. You know we're not doing well what the good old boys used to do and it didn't work back then. And all this, as you know, this stuff changes so much. You know, this is not 1985 prison anymore. I mean, this is a new era of doing things and so that's really helped as well is to consolidate those policies and make sure they work right.

Speaker 1: 46:51

really helped as well is to consolidate those policies and make sure they work right.

Speaker 2: 46:55

So the jail has the same use of force policy as the medium correctional center. Correct, correct, yeah, and that makes sense.

Speaker 1: 46:58

There shouldn't be, yeah, and you do see that a lot. I hadn't thought about it, but now that you mentioned that you'll see jails and maximum security and minimum security, they'll have different ways and it should all be the same way.

Speaker 2: 47:10

So if you have a use of force review team, okay, you don't want them trying to figure out well, which facility is this, so we know what standard to use.

Speaker 1: 47:20

Now we have one standard.

Speaker 2: 47:21

Now, the juveniles are completely different, of course, Of course. But when it comes to the adult side of things, I mean it has to be across the board, because if we train our people one way but we're asking to do it another way, we're just asking for trouble. And so you know, we can't, we can't keep, we couldn't keep going down that road. So we want to make sure that I mean they'll do what they're asked to do. Excuse me, They'll do what they're asked to do. They just need to know what the rules are and what to do. And so these policies, consolidating these policies and getting them out to the field, making sure they're all aware of the policies when they come out, getting them out efficiently and effectively, I think it's been a big help as well.

Speaker 1: 47:58

Yeah, absolutely. Well, that's amazing. I'm glad to hear you guys are doing so good. I know you know I'm not in it anymore specifically, but I know, just going around and talking, how tough some people are having it. So it's great to hear that you guys have kind of gotten a handle on some of this.

Speaker 2: 48:16

Well, the thing, the thing that I that I loved about the state police and the thing I love about corrections is is, you know, we're never going to conquer everything, right. So there's always going to be a challenge, right, and so there's always work to be done, and but I, but I do see significant progress in what we're doing. You know we still, we still are fighting contraband in our facilities. I'm sure you know you talk about it regularly on your show. You know whether it be shanks or, you know, or narcotics or whatever it might be. That's a that, with the body scanners and so forth that we've put in place at our facilities to really help, but it's constantly trying to win those battles and make sure that everybody's safe in our facilities, and not just our employees but our inmates as well, make sure everybody's treated properly and all of our officers get to go home safe at night and all of our non and all of our officers get to go home safe at night and all of our non-uniform staff gets to go home safe at night.

Speaker 2: 49:10

And and uh and just know that, hey, we care about them, we're, uh, we're rooting for them and we uh, we hope the best for them. We want to make sure that they got everything they need.

Speaker 1: 49:19

Yeah, yeah, wow. So I guess I'll get to see you next year at the mock.

Speaker 2: 49:25

I would look forward to that. Yeah, like I said, you know, I look every year like what's the dates on it? Because I don't want to be scheduling a vacation or anything during that time, because I look, I look, I look so forward to it. It's it's really a great time. It's really a great way to showcase our state. We have a beautiful state. I mean it's just from top to bottom. I mean, we have some of the most scenic areas you'll ever see in your life and I was in the Eastern Panhandle Friday and I'm still you know, I've lived here my whole life and I'm like wow, I mean what a what a beautiful place to live. And and I'm really proud of our state, I'm proud of all the things that we, that we represent not only statewide but also nationwide. I'm really proud of what we're doing and I'm and I'm really excited about our future with DCR and, you know, I just hope that we continue to be able to finish our plan that we put in place.

Speaker 1: 50:18

Yeah, yeah. So if somebody wanted to contact or get information, what would be the best place for them to do that? Do you have a website or something?

Speaker 2: 50:26

Yeah, we do, we have it's wVDCRcom and so they can go on the website there and we have a new website. We've launched a new website and it looks really good and we're proud of it. We've hired some public information directors and some admin assistants and so forth. That's helped us with our recruiting and our job fairs and our in our website. We've rebranded. We've got our new logo. I've got one on my lapel here. Okay, what? What we did there? That was from the old. Uh, I wanted to keep the idea of the old prison columns from moundsville prison, where we started.

Speaker 1: 51:02

That's what the middle part of that is. Yeah, the old doc logo.

Speaker 2: 51:05

Well, what we did was we had those three, those three pillars, but what that represents is three legacy agencies coming together under one roof, and so we had never. We had never, since we had been a consolidated division, we had never developed any kind of a branding. So we went in with a branding and now it's it's really popular, people love it. I mean, you'll see it on the shirts and hats and everything. And so, yeah, we want to make sure and I think, if I'm not mistaken, I think you got one of the hats.

Speaker 1: 51:30

You gave me a hat. I was just looking. Now I know what the what? All's going on with the symbol.

Speaker 2: 51:35

So you got one fresh off the presses. I just got those from industries that day that I handed that to you.

Speaker 1: 51:40

So you got one fresh off the presses, very good, but yeah.

Speaker 2: 51:45

So we're excited WBDCRcom and go in there and check us out and we got a lot of exciting things going on.

Speaker 1: 51:53

Yeah, I'll include that information in the show notes if anybody wants to look there. And I just thank you for coming on. What a wonderful conversation and how fascinating the trip not only the trip you took, but the trip you're taking with the West Virginia Department of Corrections now.

Speaker 2: 52:09

You know it's funny how life works, you know. I mean, if you'd have told me and I'll tell you this real quick so when I was a kid I'd be acting up a little bit. You know my grandfathers, which I worship. They say if you don't straighten up, I'm going to send you to Prunytown. Well, prunytown was a detention facility for boys back in the day. Well, now it's a community corrections facility and I'm running it. I'm over it. So I'm thinking my grandfathers could only see me now.

Speaker 2: 52:33

You know but, who would have thought that I'd have been the corrections commissioner of the state of West Virginia. You know when I was growing up and I would have never guessed that, but it's funny, I want to go for a tour. How about that? Yeah, yeah. So you know, I got an outstanding wife, just a wonderful partner in life, and I got great kids and I'm just very, very blessed and I'm just very excited about, like I said, what we're doing and I'm very thankful for everything.

Speaker 1: 53:00

Yeah, you'll have to holler at me next time you come visit Springfield and we'll meet and go have dinner, or something.

Speaker 2: 53:05

Absolutely, I would like to take you up, maybe go through the tour, maybe we'll go to that facility. Yeah, I would love to. Yeah, because my daughter she did a summer job at one of my correctional facilities in one of the prisons, and all these credentials she has she's worked in zoos and training facilities, all this stuff Well, they ask her about the prison. It's the one thing they want to ask her about, but one thing they won't ask her about. But she's living, like I said, right there in Republic. So next time we're out that way, I'll give you a shout, we'll try to get together.

Speaker 1: 53:33

Which I told you. Every time I walk in the West Virginia Penitentiary I feel at home because it reminds me so much of Missouri State Pen.

Speaker 2: 53:36

I saw the billboard is what made me. It caught my eye and I thought my gosh, that looks like probably all that era, you know, when they were building that nostalgia, but I love the building. It's a scary-looking building but man, it sure is impressive and it's near and dear to my heart Come up on Halloween and they rent out rooms.

Speaker 1: 53:58

No, I'm not staying overnight in it.

Speaker 2: 54:01

Wouldn't go that far. No, no, not going that far.

Speaker 1: 54:04

Hey, it was a pleasure talking to you and I'll talk to you soon. Hey, it was a pleasure talking to you and I'll talk at you soon.

Speaker 2: 54:08

Hey, I really appreciate you having me on. I've looked forward to this and I look forward to seeing you again. Thank you, Mike.

Speaker 1: 54:17

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