83: Insights and Advocacy with Union Executive Director William Doyle

In the realm of correctional facilities, the roles and challenges of those who maintain order are often misunderstood and overlooked.  Doyle discusses the trajectory of becoming deeply involved in union activities, from his early days in law enforcement to his current role in advocating for the welfare of correctional employees.

He outlines the initiatives taken by the National Correctional Employees Union to improve health, retirement programs, and training opportunities for their members. Our conversation reveals the unique benefits provided by the union, often surpassing those offered by state or county employers, highlighting the union's dedication to their members' well-being.

Bill Doyle bdoyle@nceu.org

National Correctional Employees Union - https://www.nceu.org/

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:35

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Speaker 1: 1:29

Hello everyone and welcome back to the Prison Officer Podcast. Today I have William Bill Doyle and he's the Executive Director of the National Correctional Employees Union. That's a union that represents correctional employees from across Maine, new Hampshire, massachusetts, pennsylvania, maryland, new York. I'm excited to have him on the program today so that we can talk about what unions do, what they are doing, especially your guys' union and we'll just go from there and see where the conversation leads us. How are you doing today?

Speaker 2: 2:05

Great, Michael, Thanks for asking and thanks for having me on here. Very excited to be here and very excited to be a part of your podcast.

Speaker 1: 2:14

Absolutely. And before we go too far, I'd like to thank Giovanna Parusi. Is that correct? Yes, yeah, she did a great job. We had a little bit of time crunches here, but she did a great job of getting you and I hooked up together so we could have this interview, so thanks out to her. So I always start the same way. Let's go back. Where'd you grow up? How'd you get into corrections or law enforcement? Where'd you start off at?

Speaker 2: 2:43

So I started off actually in about 2001 as a summer reserve police officer in Kennebunk, maine, and growing up kind of near there, near the Old Orchard Beach and Saco area, just kind of stayed around there the Old Orchard Beach and Saco area, okay, just kind of stayed around there. And then my chief of police actually migrated from the Kennebunk Police Department to the Sheriff's Department as the chief deputy and kind of enticed me to go over there and I started in corrections in 2008.

Speaker 1: 3:14

So is this Kennebunkport Maine.

Speaker 2: 3:18

Kennebunk. So Kennebunkport and Kennebunk are two different entities. They have two different police departments, two different chiefs. Some people take very great offense if you don't get it correct, Same area though. Same area, right next to each other.

Speaker 1: 3:34

Okay, okay, I mean from the Midwest here. That's the term I hear for. I hear for what the Kennedys and you know rich people out there and stuff.

Speaker 2: 3:43

So I've never actually been that way. I don't think the Kennedys are going to Kennebunkport, I think you mean the bushes. The bush compound out on Kennebunkport.

Speaker 1: 3:50

I think for the.

Speaker 2: 3:51

Kennedys, you need to go to Hyannis and down in Cape.

Speaker 1: 3:59

That's right. That's right. I haven't been to the northeast much. I teach classes once in a while, but you can tell my geography over there is kind of iffy. So, um, yeah, tell me about policing there. What was that like?

Speaker 2: 4:09

and uh, obviously small town. Uh, so policing was uh very different from your police departments and major metropolitan areas. As a summer reserve kind of just did a whole lot of writing parking tickets and handing out summonses and breaking up occasional fights in the different areas that allowed drinking and so forth.

Speaker 1: 4:36

Did you have family that worked in law enforcement or anything? Did you know about it beforehand?

Speaker 2: 4:42

It was just a kind of a lifelong goal to become a police officer and I did that and then transitioned into corrections and I really enjoyed my time in corrections. I was in corrections for about five years and then went back to work in the police and public health and then I started my career into unions.

Speaker 1: 5:07

And.

Speaker 2: 5:07

I had known unions before, when I was a corrections officer, I was a local president for my unit, Plus I was a steward for the midnight shift that I worked on, Plus I was a steward for the midnight shift that I worked on. And so it was kind of the natural progression where I was working midnights and I was staying most of the day to negotiate or deal with disciplinary issues. I was doing double duty and wasn't getting paid what I thought was the right amount for those double duties. So, uh, in essence I just went to work for the union itself uh, which allowed a quality of life.

Speaker 1: 5:45

Uh, the place you started, York County.

Speaker 2: 5:48

York County, maine.

Speaker 1: 5:49

Yeah, so tell me about what that was like and how big that place was, and uh, so it's one of the four premier flagship jails in the state of Maine.

Speaker 2: 5:58

So the state of Maine has 15 county facilities and then seven Maine State prison facilities throughout the state and York County is one of the four flagships. It's also the first county in the state of Maine and it held, I think, max capacity was 525 or 500 right around there. During my time there it was never that full. I think we got up into the low threes one time. Wish we could get that, wish we could get to that level of staffing we never got to that level of staffing.

Speaker 2: 6:37

We never got to that level in staffing. I had a lot of fun and enjoyed my time in corrections.

Speaker 1: 6:47

What was it like stepping from police over to corrections? What were the things you noticed or what was the biggest change?

Speaker 2: 6:58

I think the biggest change stepping in from police to corrections was you don't get to walk away when you're in corrections, when you're inside a facility. You don't get to walk away from them or get in your car and drive away after you've dealt with that difficult individual or having that difficult conversation. Sometimes you're stuck in that pod with that person for the entire day. So you have to make the best of that and you have to deal with those different personalities and you have to come at it a different way. The biggest tool you have in corrections is your brain right Is how you interact with people and you know, trying to stop manipulation but also making sure that the inmate needs get met but the obviously day-to-day operations get met as well, because you are there to enforce the laws.

Speaker 2: 7:52

You are a law enforcement official, even as a corrections officer. So you know I always say this and I'll continue to say it Corrections officers are first responders just like out on the road, except they have all the duties. They're not just your firefighter, they're not just your police officer, they're not just your paramedic. Corrections officers are the first ones to respond in an incident inside a facility. So they're your first responders and they deal with everything incident inside a facility. So they're your first responders and they deal with everything you know. So it's a very dangerous and difficult position but it's also a very rewarding position. I mean, I'm sure anyone that's done corrections long enough has gone out in the facility and someone's come up and said, hey, co, so-and-so, co Doyle, you know, thanks for helping me out while I was in there. Right, you know you also get the other side right.

Speaker 2: 8:43

You've got other people that come up to you and you're like hey, you know, co Doyle, you were this or you were that and you get both. You know both kinds. But it can be rewarding.

Speaker 1: 8:55

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. So you went from corrections and you went to health and human services. What made you make that change? Just a opportunity?

Speaker 2: 9:05

Opportunity came up to get back into police in the state of Massachusetts and that's kind of where I was going, and then I got the unbelievable opportunity to get into union stuff, which took me out to California.

Speaker 1: 9:21

Wow, that's quite a jump, yeah. So how long did you stay out there?

Speaker 2: 9:27

I was in California for about a year and a half, and then what brought me back was the National Correctional Employees Union finally had a open labor representative position, and that's where I was a local president, that's where I was a steward, and so I said you know what kind of move back and be around friends and family? So I took the great opportunity that was before me, and that was in 2014, and I've been with the NCU ever since.

Speaker 1: 9:55

So you were a member of the NCCEU before you became in management.

Speaker 2: 10:01

Yes.

Speaker 1: 10:02

Okay. So, what attracted you to becoming a? I see you're listed as executive director. I also saw you listed as an organizer, which I'm not sure exactly what that is, but what attracted you to that? But what attracted you to that?

Speaker 2: 10:18

So when I was working at the jail in York County during my off time, the NCU came into our facility at about 2010 timeframe, so from 2010 to 2012,. I was the local president and I was working with the NCU and I liked what they were doing. I liked what they were offering. I liked the fact that the organization started by correctional professionals for correctional professionals, and so a lot of the folks that came and talked to us they understood just like many of our members understand what it's like being told five minutes before the end of shift hey, go make a phone call. You can't go home before the end of shift.

Speaker 2: 10:59

Hey, go make a phone call. You can't go home, right, they get told. You know, our members get told all the time. You know you're mandated and a lot of people outside of corrections, outside of law. They don't know what mandations are. They don't know what holds are, freezes, whatever terminology your facility uses, sure, it all means the same thing you can't go home.

Speaker 1: 11:18

Right right.

Speaker 2: 11:20

You know, I liked that the people that I were dealing with understood the real challenges of corrections and so I actually started helping them organize, which was going out and promoting the NCU to different groups and trying to bring business to the organization. So that's kind of what an organizer does. I was doing that freelance part-time in addition to being union president, in addition to working at my job, and then, you know, kind of transitioned from there into a labor rep role in 2014, after coming back from California, and in 2017, I was promoted to regional director and then in 2020, I was promoted to executive director.

Speaker 1: 12:05

Excellent, yeah, so, executive director, where does that put you? Does that put you in a position where you're able to get some of your stuff, your priorities? Working now Is executive director the top. Yeah, sorry, I don't know.

Speaker 2: 12:22

Yeah, no, no, the executive director is underneath the board, the executive committee and board, and you know that's obviously underneath the president.

Speaker 2: 12:31

So as the executive director, I'm in charge of a lot of organizing and operations and so, yes, it does have some ability to bring programs that I'm interested in bringing to the NCU and then bringing those and rolling them out. For instance, one of the things the NCU is thinking about doing as we continue to grow, we want to establish a retiree unit. We don't want to forget our brothers and sisters that work behind the lines and just because they're retired, they can't get some of the ancillary benefits that the union offers. In addition, you know, besides what they get from maybe the state or from their counties, but we offer a lot of ancillary benefits, discounts on different programs and so forth. So we don't want to leave our brothers and sisters out in the cold that worked for 20, 20 plus years. So we want to establish a retiree unit and start building those options in for our members if they want.

Speaker 1: 13:28

Yeah, I saw on your website. I did some sniffing around. Just well, I knew we were going to talk. But you guys are. You've got dental and optical benefits. You've got dental and optical benefits, a vision plan and then something health and welfare trust fund that you partnered with the American Correctional Officer Intelligence Network and some accidental death and disability insurance, and so that's all stuff.

Speaker 2: 14:02

The NCU has a robust health and welfare fund that kind of goes along with it. Most unions establish a health and welfare fund In the state of Massachusetts it's required. So where the organization started in Massachusetts, that was one thing that we started off right out of the gate and we've been improving those benefits all along the way. And so for folks that are mandated to have it in our organization, they have it through the organization. But what we've been finding is our health and welfare benefits are good and sometimes they're better than the counties.

Speaker 2: 14:32

So we're actually getting through negotiations. We're getting our health and welfare fund into different entities, different counties and different municipal employers that allow it, and our members get a better product for less money. And again, that's what our mission is. It's to improve the lives of our members through collective bargaining, contract enforcement and legislative advocacy.

Speaker 1: 14:57

Collective bargaining, contract enforcement and legislative advocacy. Yeah yeah, and I'm sure things have changed a lot since I started, you know, 30 years ago for the state of Missouri. But I remember a time back then where the older officers couldn't retire until they could draw Social Security because COBRA insurance was going to take up like three-quarters of their retirement check if they wanted to keep insurance. You know, and that's not everywhere, but that's not that uncommon for corrections to be able to get put in those positions.

Speaker 2: 15:29

No, that's a good point and you know, obviously it depends on different states. Some states have pension setup programs, other states don't and those states that don't are. You know you really have to rely on good planning out of the gate when you, whether you go into a deferred 357 or 401k or 401, whatever be a program, whatever you try to get into, if you don't have a pension setup or a a state system set up, you really have to kind of do some real planning there. So in Maine there's a pension system set up.

Speaker 2: 16:09

So you can pay into Maine state pension or you can go with a deferred 457 or some program like that and in some cases you can even do both. And then in New Hampshire there's the 25 and out program and they do offer for employees hired prior to a certain date. They do offer a stipend for medical coverage after that if you go through the group two program. The group two is a law enforcement program. So again you really have to look at that when you're looking at collective bargaining. You have to look at some of these contracts have old language that says you'll get healthcare when you retire until maybe 5, 10, 15, or until you hit Medicare age 65 or 63, depending on your age. But a lot of that's going away. So one of the things we're looking at doing as an organization is how can we help that?

Speaker 2: 17:17

How can we help our members and help our retiree members when they go, so that they're not out there on the cold, and that's something we want to look at moving forward.

Speaker 1: 17:27

Yeah, and I think that's so important. You know, especially as a young person, when you come into this business and right now there's some, you know, I think Nebraska just upped their pay by 22%, florida was like 30%, you know. So you see those dollars and signs and you're young and you're thinking, oh my gosh, but without benefits at the end. You know, unless you're saving a lot yourself, it's going to hurt. And I don't think the benefits are going up as quickly as the pay. The pay is being used as that enticement to get people in the door. Is that what you're seeing?

Speaker 2: 18:03

No, that's 100% what we're seeing. Obviously, the recruitment issues that have happened over the past 10 years, with corrections officer shortages happening all over the United States, because of that, the recruitment is increasing faster than the retention and we're seeing a lot of folks that have been holding on. They're now starting to say, hey, you know what we're done, holding on, we're going to move on and retire and that's actually hurting the problem. Right, because your retention, you're getting a lot of experience out. Right, because your retention, you're getting a lot of experience out. And then, obviously, that's the more you have to recruit, right, so the more you have to drive money and benefits towards the front end and the back end continues to take a hit. So that is something that we're seeing all over in all the states that we're in, and we're actually trying to combat that and talk about that with employers and we've been successful in some places uh, making sure that the backend gets similar or just as much as the front.

Speaker 1: 19:08

Yeah, absolutely. I talked to a guy just it hasn't been probably a month ago and he was literally asking the question. They're bringing these new employees in, they're giving them 15, 20% bonuses and I'm getting a 2% retention bonus. You know why is he going to stay a minute past when he's eligible, you know so.

Speaker 2: 19:30

We see a lot of leapfrogging right now, especially in states where your counties, you know, in the prison systems, different states where there's just prisons, it's hard to leapfrog. But when you have, like Pennsylvania, one of the states where it has 62 counties or 67 counties, so it's not that hard to jump around from county to county if you see the benefits or you see the pay is better on the other side, so you just kind of jump over there for a couple of years. And we are seeing that all over in all the states we're in.

Speaker 1: 20:07

That's interesting because I just heard that conversation and it's not only happening just for the money. I heard that conversation in a class I was teaching a couple of months ago and officers, of course. I had different departments there and it was in Pennsylvania and they were talking about how they'll get rid of one officer over here and two other departments have had the same officer, even though they didn't make it here. Now they just need them so bad they're just hiring it whoever you know, even if they've got a bad track record. So that's interesting that you say that.

Speaker 2: 20:40

Yeah, it's again. I'm not speaking as to what their record is, I was just making sure. I know, you know making the the point that people are not staying in one spot anymore, whereas, you know, people used to see it as a profession, used to see it as a long term employment. The new demographic of employee out there, we're not seeing that you know the new demographic of employee is what's best for me? What right now?

Speaker 1: 21:06

Right now. What can I get right now? That's what I want.

Speaker 2: 21:10

And so I hope that changes, I hope that mentality kind of changes and fizzles out or kind of some of the senior folks can help educate the younger folks, or unions can help kind of guide our newer employees and newer members to kind of talk to them about health insurance up front, talk to them about retirement up front. It's so important to plan right out of the gate for your future, because I always say you only get one time to do this. You only get one shot at life, so make it count.

Speaker 2: 21:48

Make sure you can retire in dignity, you know, with a little bit of bread behind you.

Speaker 1: 21:57

Yeah, so are you guys, and I noticed this too, this almost there's a division there. You know you've got the older staff they won't listen to me, and you've got the younger staff asking why, why, why, and for some reason there's this little bit of division. Are you guys doing anything? Or is there anything out there that's kind of bridging this generational? You know where they're bumping heads, because I think that's part of what's going on these days. I have people telling well, they won't listen to me, I'm not talking to them anymore, you can't quit talking to them. There's nobody else to take the job. You know, we need these people and we need them trained right and and we need them brought up right and you're the person to do it. Is there anything that you guys are doing to bridge that?

Speaker 2: 22:39

So actually we are. We're trying to implement different FTO programs into all of our different facilities. We're trying to implement different FTO programs, different criterion for those programs and then also proposing, obviously, money, right, Money talks and you know, getting folks stipends or getting folks additional money to train the new people and train them the right way, rather than just putting them with an FTO because they're a senior officer. You know, I was very lucky. I had some great FTOs when I started and some of them are still with us Some of them are still in corrections today and some of them are not.

Speaker 2: 23:24

But I was very lucky. But not everybody is that lucky. Some folks just get stuck with somebody and that's because they were senior and they were in the post they got assigned to. And you really want to make sure that when you're bringing in the new demographics of employees, or just newer employees in general, you want to make sure you put them with somebody who is actually going to take the time to train them, because there's a lot of downtime and corrections. You know, in between your watches, in between your checks, in between your searches, in between your just general, between your checks, in between your searches, in between your just general operations of logging in and out of different materials, tools, people, actions, what have you? There's always manipulation and it's not always officer inmate manipulation.

Speaker 2: 24:15

It could be inmate on inmate and so many times we have to. Just because they're an inmate doesn't mean that you can't. You can turn your eye if they're getting manipulated against or if they're getting moved against or if they're getting you know.

Speaker 1: 24:31

You're there to protect them also.

Speaker 2: 24:34

You're there to protect them. So you got to look out for that and there's obviously different levels of inmates that come in, whether they go into general population, whether they go into a segregation housing unit for whatever they're in there for.

Speaker 2: 24:58

But again, it's a very stressful environment and you really have to keep your head on a swivel and be looking around at everything and monitoring inmates that are behind you in the showers versus inmates in the rec yard, versus inmates up in the top corner what are they doing hanging out at that door or that cell? What's going on? So you really got to kind of be out there and playing all kinds of different parts Because, again, you're the first responder if something happens.

Speaker 1: 25:23

I agree, being out there is the number one thing Getting out of those offices, getting out on the walk, getting to know your inmates.

Speaker 1: 25:31

You know you mentioned the FTO program and one of the things that I was talking to a gentleman that works in police, law enforcement and their FTO programs.

Speaker 1: 25:40

They're starting to do something which I think could be very valuable to corrections. And it's not just you go 12 weeks with this officer and now you're on your own. He checks back up in three months. He checks back up, he sits down with you in six months, goes out with you for another day, sees where you're at, takes a look at that, checks with you in a year, because so often in corrections and I just talked to a guy in Iowa, he was the jail administrator one and a half days of training and they're out on the unit. So that's all he's got time for and that's not enough. And even for getting staying with somebody for a month and being an FTO, if nobody ever follows up and answers the questions that come up after that, they don't learn they're stopped at that spot there. So I would encourage if you guys are, you know, getting that FTO program and kind of take a look at that model and add that, so that we're getting training down the road also.

Speaker 2: 26:45

That's a great recommendation. I mean, we're doing something similar but we're not checking in at the year point. But we were starting to build in checkpoints at three and six months interval. So after they get through that initial two-week rotation on day shift, two-week rotation on afternoon shift, two-week rotation on midnight shift and then they get assigned to a permanent shift, that FTO is still checking on them at three and six months. That's what we're trying to implement. But I'm actually going to take it a step further and kind of try to go after that and build in maybe a nine and 12-year benchmark or 12-month benchmark as well, because it makes sense. I mean, if nobody ever follows up, yeah, I mean you could say, if you're not getting any complaints or you're getting too many complaints, maybe that person's doing the job right. But because my first sergeant at the police department, he said, bill, if you're not getting complaints, you're not doing the job right.

Speaker 2: 27:46

Because you're not making decisions that piss people off and that way, there you're not, you're not actually doing the job. Yeah, so getting complaints is not necessarily a bad thing, not necessarily, but you can't shy away from it either.

Speaker 1: 28:01

Absolutely yeah, you've already built that relationship with that student, that officer and that FTO and it's sad just to maybe let that fizzle, but that was just something I heard and I thought that was really interesting that they were pushing that.

Speaker 2: 28:20

No, that's a great. I mean, again, that's something that we're trying to do, but they're taking it to a higher level and I like that and I'm actually going to kind of use that Okay.

Speaker 1: 28:32

So thank you, yep, yep. So tell me what else you're doing. What else is the do you guys are you going to? I wasn't quite sure when I was reading on the website. Is this an organization that you want to expand past the Northeast? Is that what you're trying to do?

Speaker 2: 28:49

Yeah, we're in. As our name states, we're the National Correctional Employees Union. We were founded in 2008 by corrections professionals for corrections professionals, but we have bloomed from starting in Massachusetts with two units, two units now in Maine to Maryland, and we're growing. We're continuing to Maryland and we're growing. We're continuing to grow and so we're out there just kind of letting people know who we are, what we're doing, that we're there. A lot of folks don't understand that they can change unions and they can look at other options if they don't like what they're getting. So again, we're out there trying to let people know that there are options, especially for corrections, that kind of get forgotten about by the bigger unions. We're out there and we want to make sure that our folks are taken care of and in corrections. When the average life expectancy is 59 and a half, that's short compared to the average person. So we need to make sure that our members are getting the most. And again, we're not just about our members, we're about corrections as a whole and bringing education to folks about corrections, talking about corrections, and that's why an important piece of our mission statement is legislative advocacy.

Speaker 2: 30:18

I know I've testified in New Hampshire and Maine and also down in Maryland and somekey or whatever the old nomenclature is. But you know you're not just that anymore, you're a corrections officer because, again, as I talked about earlier a little bit, the job has evolved, the profession has evolved. You're no longer just, you know, doing the normal check-in, click yeah, all right, we're ready. You have to have a little bit of a counseling background. You have to be a little bit empathetic to the folks that are in there. You kind of have to help those folks go through certain steps. So you're kind of like a mentor or a big brother, big sister type counseling person. Counseling person as well as just your corrections operation, your safety, security, care, custody and control of inmates. You can't just rely on that anymore. There's a lot more mental health going into it. Especially with the mental health challenges facing America that are incarcerating people, mental health is a big component of the job.

Speaker 1: 31:34

And again.

Speaker 2: 31:35

That's why it's mentally stressful to be a corrections officer. You know when you're going in there and you just your mind's constantly going because you're monitoring for every little thing that's going on.

Speaker 1: 31:48

Yeah, yeah, that was my and I've talked about it before, but that was my toughest part was the manipulation that went on constantly. Now, I don't think everybody in prison gets manipulated. You don't get out of it completely. They're going to get something, but you're always trying to minimize it. Right, okay, you got an extra deal out of the orderly closet or something, but you don't want to get that too big. But being able to walk out of there and realize that the rest of the world wasn't trying to manipulate you once you went to the parking lot, um, that was the hard part for me and still is to this day.

Speaker 1: 32:26

I'm still extremely distrustful, you know. So, um, officers deal with stuff like that. Like you said, they deal with the fact that they've got families. Some of them got little kids. You know, my kids missed a lot of me. I worked overtime a lot. That's how we paid for stuff. And I've talked to guys recently who are getting mandatory five times a week in some places. And how do you expect someone to have a life, you know, when they're getting mandatory that much? Well, what are we going to do about the recruitment and retention? What, uh, what's our direction with some of that? You know, I just talked to the commissioner in west virginia and they've done some pretty amazing things. They've brought on 600 people um in the last, I think, six months. So I mean that's cool. But do we have to change the way people see our profession? Is that part of what it is, or what do you think?

Speaker 2: 33:26

So I think you have to really look at. I've negotiated several contracts in many different states and I think what you have to really look at is what is going to bring somebody in through the door, what's that magic number or magic benefit that's going to bring them in the door, and then what's going to keep them. And when you have McDonald's and other places paying within a dollar of your corrections folks, they're not going to come to you.

Speaker 2: 34:01

Right, they're not going to go into corrections if they can not get forced overtime, not have to work weekends, not have to work holidays, and they can work fast food or they can work at your Walmart or they can be you know whatever I mean. My point is Some of those places they come in for eight Walmart or they can be. You know whatever I mean.

Speaker 1: 34:16

Yeah, Some of those places they come in for eight hours and they get paid that day and then they don't show back up for three days. It's hard to compete with.

Speaker 2: 34:26

It's very hard. I mean, and again, a lot of folks are doing with the rise in the ability to work from home for a lot of companies, especially tech companies and so forth. A lot of people are working from home now, sure, and they like that better than going into a jail who wouldn't right, sure? And so what you're seeing is a lot of folks are ditching the normal jobs and they're either opening up their own companies I mean, I don't know how many corrections officers I know that are now landscapers, painters, you know, you name it. They're doing it because it was better than corrections, yeah. And so I think the only way to really solve this staffing issue is one you have to do more training.

Speaker 1: 35:21

Yep.

Speaker 2: 35:24

There has to be more training for corrections officers. There has to be more education for the public about the need for corrections officers and not the need for home confinement. Home confinement is great, but the people that are on home confinement have to listen and usually they're in jail because they didn't listen Right. They didn't listen to whatever this law was or they didn't listen to this happening. But home confinement's nice, but again, we have to really look at back to education and training and then again we have to pay folks for this negative environment that they go in and realize that we can't worry about what other folks make.

Speaker 2: 36:12

We can't worry about what these folks make in comparison to corrections. There's no. Well, let me take that back. In most professions you're not going I don't know if I can swear, but Sure Okay, in most professions you're not going to have a shit shake thrown at you. In corrections you will. If you stay in it long enough, you will have an inmate throw a shit shake at you, and so maybe it happens once. Maybe, if you know if you're a different type of individual, it happens many times. The point is, for that one time or that other, there's many times you have to pay the officer for that. You have to pay them a premium for being in that negative environment, being in that environment where they can't leave.

Speaker 2: 37:08

They can't get in that cruiser and go down the store and go to the general store and get a drink and talk to people and do some of that community policing which I loved when I was a police officer. But you can't do that community policing when you're in corrections. You're either in a housing unit or you're in a linear style facility or you're in a direct supervision facility and you're in there.

Speaker 2: 37:33

You're in there for 8, 10, 12, 16 hours a day, sometimes longer, and that's your life. I mean, you're basically you're in jail, you're just doing it. On the installment plan, as I like to say, sure.

Speaker 1: 37:46

You're just doing it.

Speaker 2: 37:47

You know, 8, 16 hours at a time, yeah, but you're still in there.

Speaker 1: 37:53

You talk a lot about or talk a lot to the legislators and stuff. I'm kind of interested. What you know the well. I just read this, I think. Today Correctional Leadership Association gave Senator Cotton out of Arkansas an award for supporting corrections, which he does. I've heard him a lot talking about how corrections gets treated and some of the things that need to be done. But what are the legislators? And I guess I'll kind of combine this what do you hear from the legislators when it comes to our jobs? And then the other part is you just talked about that shit shake. I've seen prosecutors who won't prosecute a correctional officer because he's inside and that's expected. Yet if you did that at the mall to a police officer, you're going to jail. You know how do we get. Why are we treated so differently politically? How's that for a question?

Speaker 2: 38:53

That's a great. That's a great question. And it's a very tough question because and as you may have saw in my bio, I used to be an elected official in my home community, so I know a little bit about that side of it. And you know, when we talk to legislators, I think legislators are all sympathetic to what corrections officers go through. If they fully understand what they go through, Absolutely through, if they fully understand what they go through Absolutely. That's a lot of the education that I keep telling sheriffs that I run into is stop bringing your commissioners and your state representatives through when the jail is in tip-top condition.

Speaker 1: 39:32

Absolutely.

Speaker 2: 39:33

Stop cleaning when these folks are coming. We want them to come and see when a sprinkler head is popped right and you got water flowing in and toilets are overflowing. We want the commissioners and the legislature to see the officers doing their job when that's going on right.

Speaker 1: 39:52

We always lock it down and we stand on an empty yard while the warden shakes their hand.

Speaker 2: 39:56

That's right.

Speaker 1: 39:57

Or sheriff, or whatever.

Speaker 2: 39:58

Yeah, and that's the craziest thing I kind of emphasize with political leaders. It's like don't go through when everything is hunky-dory or when they're preparing for an inspection. Go through just some random Saturday night or Friday night or some holiday when things are crazy, because that's when you're going to see what really happens or a heavy court day I could spend a little time in intake on a heavy court day or a heavy transport day. You'll really get to see what it's like. And I think when you talk to legislators like and I think when you talk to legislators and legislators a lot of time are trying to reduce incarceration- times right.

Speaker 2: 40:47

They were trying to reduce the amount of people that are housed right and they call it warehousing individuals and so forth.

Speaker 2: 40:54

We need to stop with that right and I always tell legislators until you've done it, please don't talk about warehousing. Unless you're going to put more money into programs to help them get out of jail Good point, because unless you're going to put money on the upfront to help rehabilitate them which is what our, you know what our job is but if you're not putting any money into the rehabilitation programs and I'm not talking rehabilitation programs like your GED or your Alcoholics Anonymous, I'm talking about real programs that will give them skills to be successful on the outside, Vocational stuff.

Speaker 2: 41:36

Vocational stuff, which is totally needed in this country because you don't see enough people going into the skills going into the trades. So until you put some rehabilitative therapy in there and fund those programs, then yes, it is warehousing, but shipping them off to home confinement or, you know, reducing their sentences for nonviolent crimes. I mean we saw that in New Hampshire and that didn't go so well. I think there was an inmate that was released and then went out and assaulted somebody again.

Speaker 1: 42:18

And so.

Speaker 2: 42:19

Georgia. It's happening all over the place. We can't just say, okay here, you're all good to go back out there. We really need to look at it as a system and try to fix the system and I think where they lack is the rehabilitation therapy on the backside. Lack is the rehabilitation therapy on the backside and again, if you start doing that and you start making these programs one, you get a better hopefully. The theory is you get a better person when they're released and it gives them something to do inside and something to shoot for. So they're not just being there while they're inside, they're not doing their time bothering corrections officers or violating the rules of the facility, because they're trying to actively work towards something where they can better themselves.

Speaker 1: 43:13

And you've hit the nail on the head with something I've been seeing a lot of which you know. When I travel around I see bored inmates like I've never seen before. They've given them tablets and they lay in their bed and they click on these tablets and, okay, they're getting what? A GED or a class on a tablet, but they're not interacting with people, they're not learning skills, they're not learning how to get out of their cell and communicate with an officer or another inmate. How to get out of their cell and communicate with an officer or another inmate I've never seen.

Speaker 1: 43:48

30 years ago, if I'd have seen inmates sitting like I see now, I'd have had my back to the wall and I'd have been on the phone with control because something was fixing to kick off. You know we've got to get vocational stuff back inside. We've got, if you're a sheriff somewhere, get that inmate crew put together and have somebody from the highway department, have them go pick up trash. That's not slave work, that is work. And guess what? We should all be doing work, you know.

Speaker 1: 44:16

But we've taken everything like that and those inmates inside are bored. They don't want a lot of the classes that are there, but why can't you teach them how to weld? How can't you teach them how to plumb? I saw a st louis outside of st louis somewhere they've got a cdl deal where they they learn to drive on computer screens and then just before they get out they take them over and get them their cdl test. Now you talk about a big GPS. You want to know where that inmate's at. Yeah, he's got 80,000 pounds of GPS once he gets out. You know, that kind of stuff makes sense to me and those inmates don't come back.

Speaker 2: 44:56

Well, no, because again, when you have, when you're giving them a vocation, when they can come out and they're not being reintroduced to their what they had before, whether it was poverty or a friend network or what have you, whatever they were looking at you're giving them a vocation and you're setting them up for success right.

Speaker 2: 45:15

And then so much about helping them get from. Okay, you've been released, you have a vocation. We're going to set you up with this company to interview with right and if you can make those connections, again that's helping them and it's helping reduce the recidivism. That is one of the big things that legislators again coming back to legislators, they want to reduce that right. I mean that's the whole goal. But again coming back to legislators, they want to reduce that right. I mean that's the whole goal. But again, we have to front money, we have to put money into programming or else that whole mission fails.

Speaker 1: 45:53

And training and training.

Speaker 1: 45:58

One of the things I truly believe that it's harder to keep those officers inside. Now, if you've given an officer the training and whether that comes from other officers or whether it comes from official department training if they walk into a jail or a prison and they feel like they're knowledgeable and they feel like they're skilled, he's going to do well in there, she's going to do well in there. If they don't have those two feelings, you can pay them all you want, but they're going to walk around, they're going to be nervous, they're not going to be confident in their abilities and you're going to lose them. Um, so I don't think we can put enough training on our officers and our officers do not get the same level of training that law enforcement does. Law enforcement gets much more money posted at training. Why can't we get some of that?

Speaker 2: 46:49

So a perfect example in the state of Maine and I'm trying to take from all the different states that we're in little examples but in Maine the police academy is 18 weeks, corrections academy is five weeks.

Speaker 1: 47:04

Yeah, I know.

Speaker 2: 47:08

Like you said a correctional officer.

Speaker 1: 47:10

they're the only ones. There's nobody else coming to the scene. He's going to, he's going to secure the scene. He's going to take care of who's there. He's going to stop the bleeding. He's going to do CPR. He's going to cut the rope from around their neck. He's going to take care of who's there. He's going to stop the bleeding. He's going to do CPR. He's going to cut the rope from around their neck. He's going to escort, he's going to transport and he's going to document.

Speaker 2: 47:26

Yeah, and don't forget, you got to do your rounds in between there.

Speaker 1: 47:31

Right, so you don't get in trouble Right. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 47:34

No, but I mean you're right in the sense of in a majority of facilities, because they're so short staffed, that officer in the housing unit or responding is likely going to be the only person there for you know, a minute to three minutes. And they again they have to go in and assess the situation very quickly with numbers of people around and sometimes you know voice commands and officer presence and you start the. You know as soon as you come in the door you're starting the escalation of force with officer presence and then you start throwing out verbal commands and again you have to hope that they follow your verbal commands, right. You have to hope that they follow your verbal commands, right.

Speaker 2: 48:19

As one person responding you have to hope that they follow your commands, because at any moment it's really their housing unit and you have to kind of remember that as a corrections officer I always did it. It's their housing unit At any moment. You're one person. You can't do a whole lot against 40, 50, 60, sometimes 80 inmates, right? Not if they've gotten to that point.

Speaker 1: 48:47

Yeah, that's why, management doesn't start when the incident starts. It starts long before the incident starts and the communication and, like you said, using this, yeah, that's why it's so important to document, document, document, document.

Speaker 2: 49:03

Documents can be your best friend. If you notice something's happening two weeks ahead of time and you start documenting that, that can prevent a riot, that can prevent an inmate shanking, that can prevent an officer assault. If you see something and start writing it down and letting everybody know hey, this is going on Right. And it's so important to communicate between the different shifts because, again, you're seeing such a revolving door of staff but it's so imperative to have that communication.

Speaker 1: 49:36

Yeah, absolutely. Well, that was a pretty interesting conversation. I just well I appreciate what you guys are doing up there, absolutely Anything that you can do to help these men and women who are out there working, who are forgotten by a lot of the general public that they serve. I think that's important. And so I may not always and I was in. When I worked, I was in the position of I've been everything from a union member to an administrator who sat on an LMR board, so I've seen many sides of it, but I do appreciate a lot of the stuff that you guys do and I thank you for coming on here. Do you have some contact information? You want to leave?

Speaker 2: 50:26

Yeah, so any anyone can get ahold of me at B as in boy, and then Doyle, my last name, d O Y L E at ncuorg. Also info at ncuorg If you have any questions, and you can also reach us by telephone at 413-788-6238.

Speaker 1: 50:47

So who all, I guess? Let me ask this who all can be a member of the NCEU Across the nation, or just those states?

Speaker 2: 50:55

No, any public employee I mean we've had. We actually had folks reach out from from Missouri. We've had folks reach out as far as Texas and Kansas and so forth. At that time, at that time that they reached out, we weren't moving down in that direction. But any public employee can be in, Decide to leave their current union or again, they have to do it as a unit. But their unit can decide and look at other options if they're not satisfied with their current union or any group that doesn't have union protections or have a union advocating for them. Again they can reach out to us. But, yes, any public employee is someone that the NCU will represent. But we specialize in corrections, with a lot of us having a corrections and slash law enforcement background.

Speaker 1: 51:49

Great, great Well, I sure appreciate you coming on here, bill, and keep me updated on what you guys are doing, and it's a pleasure meeting you.

Speaker 2: 51:56

Michael, thank you, the pleasure is all mine and I'd be happy to come on anytime you'd like and answer any questions from the NCEU.

Speaker 1: 52:07

And again, thank you so much for your time and letting me be a part of your podcast. Absolutely Thank you. I would like to take a minute to thank one of our sponsors that make the Prison Officer Podcast possible. Omni RTLS is a company that I've been working with for the last year. I am proud to be part of this team of correctional professionals who have developed the best real-time locating system on the market today. With Omni's real-time location technology, you automatically know the accurate locations and interactions of all inmates, staff and assets anywhere in your correctional facility, and you have this information in real time. Omni is cutting-edge software for today's jails and prisons. It is the only way to monitor every square inch of your facility while still being PREA compliant. Go to wwwomnirtlscom for more information and to make your facility safer today. That's wwwomnirtlscom.