Redefining Financial Planning Through Diversity and Education with Guest Phoebe Ellis

Charlie Scott is joined by Phoebe Ellis, the remarkable Rising Star of 2023 from the Women in Finance Awards and Client Relationship Manager at First Wealth, graces our podcast with her vibrant journey from the world of PE and art to the financial sector. 

Her path, influenced by personal connections and a drive for inclusivity, echoes throughout our discussion, offering a fresh perspective on finding one's niche in the often-intimidating world of finance.

 At First Wealth, Phoebe's story unfolds within a firm that prides itself on being a B Corp, valuing impact on society and the environment as much as client satisfaction.

Navigating the financial industry is no small feat, yet Phoebe does so with grace, balancing client engagement and advisor support within First Wealth's unique 'pod' system. 

Her candid sharing of the challenges and triumphs of pursuing professional qualifications, like the CII Level 4 Diploma in Regulated Financial Planning, underscores the importance of resilience in personal growth. 

Her position as a B Corp leader further illuminates how non-traditional roles within finance can spearhead positive change, proving that every team member can have a profound influence on a company's ethos and action.

This episode takes a sharp turn into the significance of diversity and inclusive financial education, both of which are transforming the finance landscape. As Phoebe discusses initiatives like Thrive, co-founded by Robert Kaplan, it becomes clear that democratizing financial advice is not just a dream but an actionable goal. 

The platform's mission to break cycles of financial illiteracy is a testament to the evolving face of finance—one that embraces different backgrounds and strives for an inclusive future. 

Whether you're in the financial sector or simply curious about the people that shape it, Phoebe's insights offer a compelling narrative on the power of inclusion and education.

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Finance Planner Live. Welcome back to this week's episode, and what a corker it is. I'm joined by Phoebe Ellis from First Wealth, which are a B Corp, where she is a client relationship manager and B Corp leader. It's no wonder, when you hear her career trajectory, why she won Rising Star of 2023 in non-advice from the Women in Finance Awards. I know this will be a very inspiring story people starting out in their careers and lots of things to absorb from in terms of where to go with B Corp in the business and how to have a positive impact on your clients, on the community, on your workers and on the planet. I know it'll be a great lesson. So just sit back, enjoy wherever you are on your morning commute or if you're cooking dinner, whatever it is and enjoy Phoebe's story. Hello, financial Planner Life, welcome back to this week's episode. It's me, your host, charlie, and today I am joined by Phoebe Ellis from First Wealth, who are a B Corp. Welcome, phoebe, how are you feeling today?

Speaker 2: 1:11

Yeah, I'm good, thank you. Got a bit of a cold, but I'm soldiering on.

Speaker 1: 1:16

It is that time of year, isn't it? I've had one this side of Christmas and before Christmas, and, yeah, I'm glad Thank you for trooping on today and showing up. And I think one thing about today that I'm really excited about is to learn about your career journey, but also learn about the nuances that you have in your career journey and what's brought you to being where you are today at a B Corp firm. So I think a good way to start it off is, I guess, an overview of the journey, of how you got into financial services. I know it's always a unique path people take. So take us on a story Phoebe, how did you get into it?

Speaker 2: 1:50

So I know everyone probably says this, but I feel like mine is particularly unique. So I kind of started, obviously, went through school was never particularly academic. I think kind of in school you're kind of you're taught like I don't know, science is for doctors, maths is for finance. I think kind of in school you're kind of you're taught like I don't know, science is for doctors, maths is for finance, and you kind of get put into those categories and I was never really in any of those categories. So I immediately put away careers that I thought wouldn't work for me, like finance for example. So I kind of went down a creative route. So at A-level I did PE and art, so nothing like financing at all.

Speaker 2: 2:28

Um, at university I knew I wanted to do a year abroad. So I picked American Studies. So I did that for four years, did a year in Illinois, which was really fun and a kind of really good way to see the world and also be really independent and grow up a bit, I guess because I lived there by myself, I didn't know anyone. Um, it was quite a experience in that sense. Um, but that's a story for another day. Um, so yeah came, went to uni, kind of finished uni, just as covid hit, I think I think that was when I finished um and basically I was kind of like I don't really know what I want to do. I was quite interested in that entrepreneurial space, so startups. So I worked for a startup for a few months, um, and that was kind of what all the government helper schemes were coming out. So it was quite a noisy period, I guess, for finding a career, um.

Speaker 2: 3:19

So, yeah, working for the startup, I realized I wanted to work with people, but in the startup I was at, I wasn't sure that I wanted to do that exactly. So my dad has a background in finance, um, so I kind of had a conversation with him and I thought I literally have no idea what I want to do, um, and he said well, why don't you speak to other people I know, just to see what you might be interested in? So my godfather is a financial planner, um, and I spoke to him and he was like, oh, you don't need to be that good at maths, like it is simply just like know your stuff, be good with people and just like be strict with what you're doing, as in like be, um, do your exams, like all of that kind of stuff. So I thought, you know what I think I could do, that it sounds like something that would be fun. So I basically started doing my exams, applied for first wealth, and then, kind of here I am today and yeah, that's, that's me basically.

Speaker 1: 4:11

I love that you've gone from doing PE and art to American studies, and I think it's a common theme as well. People don't think finance is for them because they're not good at maths. Like I never thought that I'd be working in the finance space ever. I did biology, I did science, I did, you know, zoology, sustainable studies like it. For me. It was very much the last thing on my mind and I think people tend to fall.

Speaker 1: 4:35

You either are dead set on getting into finance or you fall into it, and both are sort of really lovely unique paths along that way, and so you found yourself at First Wealth and when you joined them obviously B Corp sort of did that stand out to yourself. Was that part of their process already, and what was it that sort of brought you to First Wealth?

Speaker 2: 4:54

So I basically was kind of looking around at loads of different financial planners. One of the main things that I wanted was somewhere that I felt would be, I'd feel, included in in the team. So I think obviously massive thing around financial services. It's very non-diverse and non-inclusive, so I think it was really important to me to find somewhere that was quite small as well. I wanted a small firm, kind of like the startup vibe, I guess, and something that was quite exciting and you've got quite good access to directors and you can learn from a lot of different people, rather than just kind of like turning up to work, doing your job and leaving um. So I think that's where First Wealth stood out to me a lot. Like I love their website, I loved the people. Like it just seemed like everyone that was working there just loved working there, um. So I was kind of like stalking everyone's links to be like what do you think about it?

Speaker 2: 5:49

um, and then, yeah, luckily well, actually at the time there wasn't an open position. So I emailed um the people operations director. I was like I'd be really interested in working financial services. Would you have a conversation with me? Um, and then they were like, oh, we've, actually we're opening up our client relationship manager role, which is the role I'm in now. Um, they were like we're opening up applications for that soon, so kind of just stick around and see what happens. Um, and at the time I was on um I can't remember what it's called. It's like um, because of the scheme that I was on with the startup that I worked with. I was on like job seekers allowance. Yeah, um, so I was kind of trying to tell them. I was like, no, I'm getting this job. Like I know I'm gonna get it. Like, just bear with me on this.

Speaker 1: 6:35

I had to keep going to these meetings.

Speaker 2: 6:36

They were like what do you want to do? I was like, I know I want to do this. Like just bear with me, um. So I think a lot of people say that I'm quite like la-di-da when it comes to things, like I kind of, when I'm driven to do something, I will usually get it, um, just because I will put all of my energy into it. And, luckily, that's kind of what happened with First Wealth and when I joined, I think a big part of it was definitely the B Corp thing. I I kind of saw First Wealth and then I looked into B Corp a little bit more, because I didn't really know about it and they only became certified in 2020. So it was quite new to doing that in the finance space and I just thought this is like the perfect company to work for.

Speaker 1: 7:16

So, yeah, I love the whole story you just told about how you got that job, because that demonstrates how to get into financial services with no prior experience. You've got to do your market research, you've got to have gumption, you've got to be committed. I think you've also identified sort of the values you were looking for and I think if you do a job search based on your values, you're not going to be disappointed at the end because you're going to be aligned with people and a business which operates in the same, similar way to yourself, and it sounds exactly like you've done that.

Speaker 1: 7:49

And I love what you said about having a smaller firm where you've got more interaction with directors, because I think it becomes more collaborative. I work with you know, quite closely with the directors of where I work and you can have real tangible conversations about your personal development, about the business, that you are so included, and I always say small company, big impact because, like you said, you're all in the same room together, you're all shoulder to shoulder and it's like a very equal level, I feel. And so talk me through your role then. So client relationship manager, did you say yes? Yes, because I think, financial plan of life, we've got people who'll be listening, who are like, yeah, I know exactly what a client relationship manager is, but there's also people who listen and they're curious about getting into the profession and, as somebody who's clearly found their first role by doing their market research, doing that direct outreach, being very savvy with the market, what is the role that you do at the moment?

Speaker 2: 8:44

so I feel like First Wealth has quite fun ways of like giving out role titles. So we've got a client relationship manager, we've got technical analysts who are basically power planners, but just a bit more exciting um. So client relationship manager, I basically my day-to-day is working alongside the advisors, um, or the advisor, so we essentially work in like little pods of teams. So I work alongside Anthony, who's one of the directors, and I basically liaise with clients every day.

Speaker 2: 9:13

I think one of the great things about First Wealth is that I can have a lot of client impact in the sense that I call clients, I do various like meetings with them to run through systems, like I can have as much of a relationship with the clients as the advisor could have, um, but without having to actually give out the advice, because that's the scary part, um, but yeah, I basically that's my day to day. I do paperwork, admin, like all of that kind of stuff, and I think that's why I wanted to get into B Corp related activities when I joined, because I think obviously day-to-days can get quite samey. So I think when you can, when you've got the ability to join different projects at work, it's always good to do that so you can just, I guess, better your knowledge generally in other things that are going on, apart from just what you're doing day to day, but also, I don't know, just have a bit of fun. Yeah, I guess.

Speaker 1: 10:12

Yeah, it's like having a fun little side project, isn't?

Speaker 1: 10:15

it like I was really involved. Still I'm very involved with B Corp and it just, you know it gives you something different to do on a Friday, for example. Be like what are we going to focus on today? And I think as well for people who are passionate about getting involved with B Corp, you know it's people and planet. There is something within those two categories that people will be passionate about. Whether it's saving the rhinos or protecting the rainforest or helping men's mental health, there's something that everybody can align with and I love that. It brings that diversity to your role as well, in the sense of, I know, with the client sort of relationship management. There is a process, there's a life cycle of advice isn't there and do you feel as well working in those pods of you know, advisor, technical analyst, client relationship manager? You build those deeper relationships and if you are working across lots of different advisors with lots of varied clients, do you feel the clients benefit from that?

Speaker 2: 11:05

yeah, I think so because they can kind of like if they the client relationship, client relationship managers are the people that answer the phone. So as soon as a call comes in from a client we're their first point of contact and to be able to just have that relationship with them already they don't have to go straight through to their advisor. They know who we are in the team so they know what case we're working, or we know they know that we're working on their case if that makes sense. So they can call up and they'll say oh, I've got a question about this and we can run through it with them. As long as it's not an advice based question, obviously we'll put them through to the advisor if that came up.

Speaker 2: 11:39

But I think it's really beneficial to have those pots because you also get a better relationship with the people you work with on the teams and say a client's come straight to you for something. It's a lot easier to just go to know who you have to go to to get the answers for that and then get back to the client as soon as possible. And I think it's also just better customer service, I guess, for the client because they have direct access to you and they can get a response within I don't know half an hour if they email us, or even straight away if they email us, and it's a really quick thing that we can just get back off to them. And that's something that I always try and do is don't ever leave a client hanging and make sure that because if they're worrying about something, money is a big worry for people.

Speaker 2: 12:26

So if they're worrying about something, I want to make sure that they're feeling happy and content and I can give them the same um, I guess level of ease that an advisor gives someone yeah, I love that.

Speaker 1: 13:21

I love that and I think as well as a client relationship manager. You mentioned that you've done some qualifications, and what qualifications is it that you've pursued?

Speaker 2: 13:30

so I'm doing the level four diploma in regulated financial planning. I think that's the whole. Is that the CII? One yes, the CII one. I think that's the whole way of saying it.

Speaker 2: 13:40

I'm not entirely sure um, but I've done RO1. So I did RO1 when I on my kind of journey into first wealth, because it is the one where you can kind of just learn about like regulations. It's the most boring, basically. So I did that. And then I've got RO2, ro3 and their investments and tax, and then RO4, which is pensions, which was pretty hard. I did find, though, with the difficult ones, that they were the most interesting because I actually felt like I was applying some knowledge with protection, which is R05. I just felt like I'm just like, because it's multiple choice, I'm just clicking a box and just ticking what the CII want, but with pensions and the taxes exam, I actually felt like I was learning something more and then applying that knowledge with the questions. So it's a bit of a weird way of looking at, because everyone says that they hate those ones, but I kind of like them in a weird way. Um. And then I've just recently done RO6, which is my last one. Um.

Speaker 2: 14:41

I've had a few hiccups along the way, failed a few um, I think, as I did a post on LinkedIn a while ago just to kind of have some transparency around failing exams, because I've never been particularly good at exams like I, they're never my thing. I always pick coursework over exams just because I can't it. The stress that it gives me is just not worth it. Um, so this was my second time at RO6. The most recent one I did and I thought just because a lot of people at work pass it in one go and that's it. So I want to make sure that everyone has some transparency around the fact that, like, people fail exams, yeah, some of the best advisors in the world have probably failed most of their exams, but you have no idea because they've present themselves the way they do now. Um, so I think that's important, but yeah, that's. I'm hopefully going to be a dip PFS on the 1st of March.

Speaker 1: 15:34

I will keep an eye on the 1st of March. I've got my fingers crossed for you, phoebe, and 100%. Everyone learns in different ways and I think the fact that there's a few different routes you can go down for qualifications I know people looking to get into the profession are very much like which one do I go for and the fact that there's a mixture of how they assess you in the CII one it works for some people, it works for others. You know, I think it's very much the individual learning style and, like you said, sometimes life happens and if you fail something, I always believe it's. You know, some you win, some you learn, and maybe RO6 is going to be knowledge that's so cemented in your brain that further in your career you'd be like do you know what doing that twice has actually been really helpful? That's the perspective I try and see on it. It's glass half full, isn't it?

Speaker 1: 16:15

yeah, it's better to look at it like that yeah, and now that you're sort of immersing yourself, you're almost fully diploma qualified. From your experience, have you, you know, faced any barriers or anything in the profession? Is there anything that you've sort of come up against or, you know, how have you felt with that?

Speaker 2: 16:31

I don't know. So I think in terms of barriers, I'd say the exams have been my biggest barrier, just basically trying to get through them. And actually probably what I'd say is, when I first joined, my whole career goal was to be an advisor. Um, and I'd say probably by my third exam I was like I don't actually think I want to do this anymore, mainly because I just don't want to go through the full charted exams. And I also know that people there's some really good advisors out there that love working with people on absolute like that is their passion, and I would rather leave it to them to do something that they really love when that I think I could do it. I could do it well, but I don't think I'm that passionate about it to be like that's going to be my thing um so I'd say that's probably been a barrier of mine, because working out what to do next is the problem.

Speaker 2: 17:29

Um, I'm interested in the entrepreneurial space but it's just kind of looking into different things to do and obviously that's why I've got more involved in the other projects. So B Corp, um Thrive, which is our financial education platform, um, getting more involved in those kind of things and seeing, I guess, managing projects in a way, I don't know, it's just trying to see what different things might excite me or interest me in a career going forward. But finance is still enjoyable and I still do like the day-to-day, but there's just some people that are wired to be advisors and that's not me.

Speaker 1: 18:07

I also think that it takes a lot of inner self-reflection and, you know, a lot of honesty with yourself to look at. Okay, I set myself this goal, I want to be at this place in this number of years and everyone thinks getting into financial planning. You know, I'm going to be an advisor, I'm going to be a power planner, but there's so much space around that that can be filled and there's so much impact you can have that doesn't have to go into those two channels. Um, and okay, let's, let's dive into it. Then you are not just a client relationship manager, but you are b corp leader, if I'm correct, for first wealth, and I think people who listen to the podcast you know we're a b corp at financial planet life. They're very aware of what it involves. But it's, you know, for those that are listening that maybe don't know, it's a certification you can do and the best way I describe it is it's almost like an organic label for a business. You know if you buy organic fruit and veg, you know that soil has been tested to the nines to make sure it's of a very high standard, and that's the same for B Corp. It puts a business through a very strict and very thorough accreditation process with five sections that you go through something like 250 questions if you include all of the disclosure questionnaires at the end and it's in my opinion, it's a surefire way to be able to look at a business and go right.

Speaker 1: 19:23

I know that they care about all the good stuff. They're having a really positive impact on both people and planet and they're doing their best to constantly evolve and give back to people, to the planet, to the community, to the profession. So for yourself, obviously, I think what's really unique as well is I've spoken to a lot of people involved with B Corp, who are the business owners, people who decided to set up a business and make it B Corp, and I think it's really empowering to see somebody who's at the level you're at, but you're a client relationship management manager and you're getting involved, you're given a platform, you're helping, you're leading, you know, in this area within the business, you're sat within and I know there'll be many people listening who maybe they're a power planner, maybe they're even an advisor and maybe they're an admin, and they're sat within a business at the moment and they think I care about this, but I just don't know how to get involved. So how was it that you got involved with B Corp at First Wealth?

Speaker 2: 20:19

So I literally, I'd say probably three weeks after I joined, or two weeks even, I was like I want to be part of one of the kind of side teams alongside what I do day to day. So in that I joined B Corp and there was four of us in the team at the time it was two of the directors and then myself and another technical analyst, um, so we all basically would meet every month and just kind of run through what the B Corp plans are, basically just same same most weeks essentially. And it was kind of in the run-up to recertification we were just looking at different things that we could do to get better, I guess. And what I started to see was that we obviously were all really, really busy. So get to the meeting and it's, you know, it's one of those things you know when you're sat and you see like that 15 minute meeting notification and you're like, oh, I haven't prepped for this, so you have to be like, okay, what can I do? What can I bring? And people turn up to the meeting and we just kind of like, okay, that sounds good, let's do that. Yeah, fine, next, um, and just carry on with our day-to-day um, because obviously we're here for the clients and that's the main part.

Speaker 2: 21:34

So b corp kind of took a back step in a way, because it wasn't our main focus when we're not recertifying that year, if that makes sense, um, so that's kind of when I joined and then. So I approached the directors and I kind of said, look, I love the CRM role, which is client relationship manager. I'm just shortening it. I feel like finance loves three-letter abbreviations. They love it. So, yeah, crm. And then I was thinking I think we need someone who focuses on B Corp. And that person is me, basically. So I came to them with this full like job title, job spec, everything like that. Um, like you probably tell by now, I'm quite a direct human person. Um, so I came to them with the idea and I just said, look, I'll manage B Corp, I'll run everything, I'll manage the recertification. I just think we really need to be having a focus on each pillar. So there's five pillars of B Corp their community, social customers, environment and governance governance the one I always forget governance.

Speaker 2: 22:47

It's probably one of our most important ones it is it is um, so we basically restructured all the meetings.

Speaker 2: 22:56

Um, well, I've restructured all the meetings to make sure that we're all focusing on that. So there's now five members of the B Corp team and we all have a specific focus on each pillar and I think I can't. I basically just tried to prove to them that the B Corp leader role was needed by driving the recertification, by making sure that every point that we make in the meetings are always delivered that week, if it's a quick win, or even post-meeting, and just kind of make sure that they understand that this is something that's really needed, really needed. Um, and even I guess getting opportunities like this coming on your podcast is one of the ways where we can make it more obvious that we're a B Corp and kind of be that B Corp leader in the finance space and try and make sure that people look at us as a yeah, I guess, big, big name in the B Corp finance world yeah um, so that's kind of why I focused on B Corp leader and how I got the role, I guess.

Speaker 1: 23:56

But yeah, yeah and I think you know, for anyone listening who thinks B Corp taking a back step, it happens like you think of your day-to-day right and, and particularly if you know, directors are the people that's brought B Corp into the business. Directors have so many things. Any director listening is going to be like, absolutely my diary is chock-a-block, and I'm sure they appreciated that. You came along and was like, right, I've got a job spec, I've got a job title, I've got a plan. Like just let me manage this.

Speaker 1: 24:31

And the fact that you've got one person for each pillar means that you've got some ownership over each area from one person, so it's not all just on yourself, which I think is great. That sounds like a great structure to be able to orchestrate success within it. And I also think, when it comes to B Corp, what would you say are some of like the biggest successes or like things that you're most proud of that First Wealth are involved in? Just to really highlight some of the positive impacts that people you know businesses can have when they are a b corp, whether that be with the clients or with the company culture, with the benefits with community outreach, like what are some of the biggest wins that you've had with the b corp process at first wealth so I probably say we've.

Speaker 2: 25:10

So last year we had a massive focus on the environment, um. I think there's a lot of noise around net zero and a few years ago, a lot of companies made the goal of being net zero by 2030 and I actually don't think a lot of them understand what that means. So we basically me and um my colleague who was working on be caught with me at the time did a deep dive into net zero, like he's very environmentally focused and he even was like I literally have no idea what this is, reading through papers and papers of stuff, um, and we had a few conversations with some companies um that are based on environmental things, so ecology and eight versa, um, and we were like, please, could you just like dumb down net zero as much as possible. They basically said that being net zero means that you have to offset 90 of your emissions from your base year um, and then the remaining 10 can be carbon avoidance projects, um. So, essentially because we hadn't been calculating anything since our base year, we've progressed a lot since where we would have started. So we've gone to flexible working which takes down our emissions. We've gone to um. We've got a 100% renewable energy provider. Um, we recycle all our waste, like all of that kind of stuff.

Speaker 2: 26:29

If we'd set our base year before that we could have reduced by 90% very easily, I guess. Um, but because if we were setting our base here off of this year, that would be incredibly difficult because we can't basically get everyone to walk into work and like live with no energy, um. So we basically realized it wasn't possible for us and we took the route of going okay, because we can't necessarily be net zero, now what can we do instead? So we've met with different companies and Apeversa have helped us a lot with setting a low carbon initiative for us that we can go to. So we're still going down the route of being less carbon based company.

Speaker 2: 27:13

I don't know all the lingo, so I'm just trying to like move around it, but essentially that's the kind of reset, not recertification. That's the kind of, I guess, award we're looking at um and thing to work towards rather than being net zero. And I'd say that has probably been the most rewarding part so far, because we've it's one of those things where we've had a goal and we've thought, okay, let's deep dive into what this goal actually means. Oh, we can't make this goal. Now, what can we do to get there?

Speaker 2: 27:45

um so I'd, and because it's quite rewarding, because I literally had no idea about it before yeah so I think learning about that and then also having an open and honest conversation to different companies and people to say, look, this isn't actually something that we can do anymore, but we're doing something different. I think that makes us quite powerful in the space. Um, and yeah, that's probably been the most rewarding part, and actually we've got a diverse inclusion policy now and an environmental policy. So I think getting all those things in place last year was our main goal, and now we're doing philanthropy. Well, our focus this year is philanthropy and workers. Um, so we're doing looking at lots of different exciting things and it's our 15th year.

Speaker 1: 28:36

Yeah, that's very exciting. Philanthropy and workers I feel like workers is also. You know, particularly if people get involved with B Corp, you are having a very tangible impact on the environment. You work within um. I know when we were going through the B Corp process and we were looking at workers, there was so much we were already doing that hit the markers of B Corp. But then there were other things and it was like why don't we have a breastfeeding policy? Why do we not have that? Why have we got you know, why don't we have equal maternity and paternity? And it was these little things where it took the changing of a policy to actually make the working environment a lot more inclusive, a lot more of a safe space for people to come into wherever they're coming from. And I think that was something which we you know the B Corp process can really highlight that. I think I remember I had a conversation once with um.

Speaker 1: 29:27

It was Seb from Switchfoot Wealth. They're a B Corp based in, I think, sussex. There's two types of companies when it comes to B Corp. You've got a company which is already functioning in a way where doing B Corp is pretty simple for them. They can go through the process. They'll take a lot of boxes already and it's just a matter of getting that certification to solidify what they're already doing. And then you've got a company which has a big impact and they actually really need the b corp process to pull them out of what they're doing and have a more positive impact. And I actually think there's sometimes a little bit of a space in between for companies where you've got people who they do positive things.

Speaker 1: 30:02

They don't necessarily have the biggest impact, but the b corp process is almost like it gives you ideas yeah, a hundred percent open up the inspirational and it can really inspire you to bring a conversation to light and say, okay, why don't we initiate this every year? Or you know, I know that with financial planner life, where I work, it's a case of we have every year, we have an endurance fundraiser, and that's not only is it something that's going to help our mental, physical sort of emotional well-being. Going through a physical endurance fundraiser three peaks in 24 hours was quite the journey. Yeah, um, and we were very lucky.

Speaker 1: 30:38

I don't know if you've heard of Russ Cook who's currently running the length of Africa. He's called Hardest Giza, I think. So, yeah, he was the one who took us up the mountain. It's also it's so wild when we wow, I know, um, but you know the fact that I went through that process. I actually look back on it so much to be like that has taught me a lot. But also, we still raise something like four thousand something pounds for the running charity, which is a great charity that supports people with young people with mental health issues by getting them into running.

Speaker 1: 31:06

So it makes sense that Russ is now running the length of Africa for running charity. Um, but yeah, and so for yourself. Then, obviously, working in a b corp space within finance. How do you feel like the rest of the financial planning industry, like where is the catching up needs need to come, you know?

Speaker 2: 31:23

do you feel like there's enough being done around you or do you feel like yeah, so I'll sort of open up that conversation for you, um, I think by having someone like me running a forward thinking project, I think, and also because I've got like a different educational background, it helps with trying to, I guess, make first wealth stand out a bit more in the finance space, because a lot of finance companies are guilty of hiring the same people. So you've got economics graduates, you've got business graduates, you've basically got a very linear approach to thinking with a lot of people, and I think a lot of finance companies haven't caught on to that yet. Um, because, like those, you can teach those things very easily. Like I learned a lot of the stuff about finance because of my exams. I had no idea about them before, but you can't teach, um, how someone is generally, um, that's just who they are. So by having they just need to, they just need to do a lot more. To be honest, like even looking at because I don't look at a lot of different companies day to day, but just generally, when I, like we recently had our summer internship applications come through and just looking at the range of applicants we get, it is very similar, um, just in terms of education um, we did no-name CVs, so I can't base it off of type of person, um, or in diversity wise, but we had very similar people you. They went to university, they, um have had a few like work experiences with JP Morgan, they've done economics, they've done all these things that would think, oh my god, amazing. This is exactly the kind of person we need, um, and I think that's where finance needs to change. I think they need people, need to know more about the fact that you can get into this space without having that background, and that's on the onus of the people that are at the top that can say look, I don't know, there might be some directors out there that might have done the same kind of like education that I did and they're not shouting about it. And I think it's really important for them to shout about that so that they can get those people in the space.

Speaker 2: 33:51

And I think one of the main things that I want to do with my time in finance is to be that person that someone can look at and go, oh my god, I could do that, like I could. She looks like me, she's got a similar background to me. I can do something that she's doing, um, which is why I want to be as, I guess, visible as possible. Um, which was great, the fact I won the rising star of the year. Um, on advice, because that I like I love that for myself.

Speaker 2: 34:24

The fact that I won that, because, like, looking back on where I started, I'm like there's absolutely no way, like my maths teacher would be like what in the world can't believe she's won that? Um, and I think, if so, if other people could see that and go, the fact that she's won that and she's come from doing all of this different stuff in the background and she's just driven and knows what she wants to do, and that's all you need to be able to get there. Yeah, I've waffled a lot, to be honest, in that no, that's all good waffle, yeah.

Speaker 2: 34:54

I just think it's on the owners of the people in the industry, particularly at the top, to make sure that they're talking about their journeys, in which is again really good that you've got this podcast, that you're kind of asking people these questions, and they just need to be vocal about the fact. Vocal honesty, like honesty is the biggest thing failing exams, all of that stuff yeah yeah, they just need to make the space more available.

Speaker 2: 35:21

But I actually think that a lot of people in finance don't want other people in here. If that makes sense like careers wise, I think they just want pretty linear thinking people, just because that's where, that's what they know and it's more. I guess it's probably the unknown or someone coming in and thinking of a different idea than what you thought and it might be undermining, I don't know. But I think that's what's really important, because a lot of different sectors have gone that way where they've like marketing. You could literally have any background in anything and get like marketing. You could literally have any background in anything and get into marketing. So why can't finance be like that?

Speaker 1: 35:56

yeah, 100 it's. It's such an interesting conversation when you dive into it. Is that word governance, isn't it? Who's that around the table making those decisions? And, yeah, and you know the level of unconscious bias we all have a level of unconscious bias, right. And if you've got people sat around the table who are all this look the same, talk the same, walk the same, their hiring process, it's going to be influenced by that, whether or not you like it and they like it. And I think the more people that you've got around that table who come from different walks of life, don't look the same, don't necessarily talk the same, don't have the same life experiences, that diversity of thought and that diversity of like humanity, yeah, is what's going to make the difference.

Speaker 1: 36:39

And I do agree. I think you know we're all about people getting into the profession from whichever way they want and definitely all about second careerists and helping people realize that this is a career where you can have so much impact. You can have a really positive, tangible impact and particularly when you work somewhere that's a b corp, not only do you show up every day and you help clients with their financial plans, but there's enough framework around the business that when you go home at night. You've also helped. You know plant trees with ecology, for example. You've also helped with the philanthropy you're doing so not it's like a symbiotic relationship of positive impact whilst you're furthering your career yeah.

Speaker 2: 37:15

I'm such an advocate for diversity of thought like that is one of the main things that's lacking in this industry and it's so important. Like we had an unconscious bias training session recently, um, and it was really interesting just to. I think people, just as soon as you say you're biased, people are like no, I'm not, I can't, I'm not biased at all. It's like every you are, you are biased, like you've the tv shows you've watched, the way you've grown up, the things that your parents have told you, the things your grandparents have told you, the things that people around you have told you teachers, everyone has affected your bias growing up. Um, like yesterday, my boyfriend was, um, sorry fiance, I keep forgetting that. Um, he was saying something like oh, the director, um, at his work, something, something, and I was like oh, did he?

Speaker 2: 38:05

um, I don't know what I said after it he was like it's actually a she and I was like, ah, yeah that's see, there's, there's all these things that you just don't, your brain automatically goes to and it's just important to know that. Everyone has a bias. Not, you don't have to be retracted by that, you just go. Okay, I have a bias and I just need to work around how I can change that, because you can't physically change it in your head, but you can think more before you say something to another person, so you can start to, I guess, adjust your bias in a way that is beneficial that's great advice, that 100 like, definitely.

Speaker 1: 38:44

I think as well, when it comes to like, like you said, that director, he. But we did a talk once, um, I think it was with the CISI, to a bunch of graduates or to soon to be graduates, and we said when you think of a financial advisor, are you picturing a white man in a suit? Because that's the the scope that it's always been, and not to say that that's necessarily wrong or broken, but why can't we then invite more people into this space? And I definitely, yeah, I definitely think it's a direction which is happening. I think there's some great communities out there and I think people like yourself who are, you know, shouting the good stuff and beating the good drum and and elevating and raising awareness of the direction financial services should go in. And one thing I'm curious about as well as you mentioned, um, was it thrive?

Speaker 1: 39:33

yes um, which is a financial education platform, and I'm very passionate about financial education. I remember I once did a poll on LinkedIn and I'm not sure why I was so surprised at the results. But I said where did people learn about financial education? And I think I said parents, school, self-study or not learn financial education? And obviously school had zero um, and then I think there was a good amount for parents and then there wasn't that many in terms of self-study, but there was still a good amount. And I just thought if you've got parents who have wealth, they're going to teach you about wealth. It's a bit like financial advice, right? I think it can become a generational knowledge that's passed down from through your clients through to their children. And then if you've got people who don't have that, it can keep them stuck in that cycle of deprivation. And I'm so passionate about it. So tell me about Thrive.

Speaker 2: 40:24

So Thrive was kind of born out of one of the directors, robert Kaplan. He was basically like is my mission in life to just make rich people richer? And he thought no, it's not. So he thought that we basically started off as let's talk about money and it was this like instagram-based platform where we would just post little finance tips. Um, it was kind of under first wealth, so it was pretty first wealth branded. You obviously still have to follow fca regulation in terms of that kind of stuff. So it was a bit more um constricting in terms of what we could do.

Speaker 2: 41:02

So thrive then became its own company, um, thrive money and essentially we created a course last summer where we basically take people through the process that a financial advisor would take someone through but for a fraction of the price of what financial advisors charge, whether it's fund-based percentages, fee, like initial fee, one-offs. It's just completely different to what anything anyone was doing at the moment. I think a lot of people have coined onto it now um, but we basically created that um and started selling it to people for 200 pounds initially. Um, and we have an Instagram, we've got a TikTok and we just kind of post like our thing is to basically make financial education sexy, because finances is so boring, like the last thing anyone wants to do is sit down or even open their bank account. Then that's the last thing anyone ever wants to do.

Speaker 2: 42:01

Um, and what I find really interesting is money is something that everyone has in common, like it's the only thing that you could talk to anyone in the world about and you all have some sort of experience that might be similar. Um, and particularly in the UK, no one talks about it at all, like having any conversation, even during the course of living crisis, like we were going through it, but no one's saying maybe we shouldn't go out to dinner, like that is not a very good financial decision, but we did it anyway. Um, so I think we our whole mission with Thrive yeah, is to make finance sexy and just make financial education more accessible. We've recently changed the price of the course to three one off pay, no, three installments of 20 pounds to make it 60 pounds overall, because we realised that £200 actually wasn't that accessible for the people that we want it to be accessible for. So we've done talks with Amazon. We've done different. I guess we I think there was a company called Girls that Invest.

Speaker 2: 43:05

I know them, yeah, yeah and we, like got in touch with them. Part of their newsletter was us sending out courses for some of the individuals that wanted it, um, and we've just tried to basically give it out as much as possible. We're definitely changing the way that we're doing it at the moment. We're looking at other ways that we can make it more accessible. Um, but again, like a lot of the problems with these things is time.

Speaker 2: 43:34

Um, because obviously, like, when you've got day-to-day stuff that you need to do, I really am passionate about financial education, but it's just trying to find a time when you can actually put everything you want into it for the people that need it, um, rather than just doing it half-assed and I guess, just getting it out there just to tick a box of being like, well, we're trying to do financial education, um, so that's something that it kind of falls under our b corp community pillar. Um, and we we've had really really good feedback all the time about how we're helping people. We just want people to have access to advisors, because so, like, you can't just call up a financial planning firm and be like I need some help and they'll go no, give me a fee for it. Um, so we're basically through thrive, just trying to get people to have access to advisors, making financial education fun and, yeah, just getting it out there and on social media so you're on your day-to-day.

Speaker 2: 44:32

I don't know commuting in, you just see something that says this is what an ISA is and you go, okay, that's helped me out a lot, because it's stuff that you just don't know about at all. I only learned about all of this stuff because of my exams, but in school I do. I still don't really know what a mortgage does, what it is, what different types are, and it's all these stages that people go through in life, but it just doesn't seem to be taught. It's bizarre, it actually doesn't make sense.

Speaker 2: 45:03

Um, and it's just. It's one of the ways that rich people could get richer, I guess, because they they have access to these spaces and can discuss it with different advisors, different people, and they've got all these people helping them. But then the people that really need the help are the ones that have no idea about what to do and aren't able to access that information. So that's why we're kind of doing that through Thrive and trying to do everything as free as possible, I guess.

Speaker 1: 45:33

That's fantastic. I'm so glad I dove deeper into what Thrive is and I love the name.

Speaker 1: 45:38

Obviously, helping people thrive financially and just generally giving back to the community and making it as accessible as possible is, I think more people need to do things like that more people need to make things accessible, because as much as people want to monetize everything, sometimes you just got to give a little bit to get a little bit back in my opinion. Um, I know I love that and I think I'm just going to sort of wind it down now and I've got two, two final questions for yourself, um, phoebe, and one of them is where what would you want to see like moving forward in financial planning? What are you hoping to see like changes, wise, in the next couple of years that are going to make a real tangible difference? Like what do you see as their sort of things that you've been involved with or you know, in your discussions with the wider profession? What are some of the changes you feel you might see coming forward?

Speaker 2: 46:33

I'd honest, I'd say hopefully no more FCA changes, because they are getting so strict, yeah, and it's almost like it.

Speaker 2: 46:43

It's always getting to the point where it's coming a detriment to the clients because you have to go through so many hoops to get like we'll do a pension transfer, for example. They're like you have to go through so many hoops to get like we'll do a pension transfer, for example. They're like you have to have a money helper call and they're like, well, that's the whole point in us we're the advisors like that's the whole reason that we're here, so that they shouldn't have to then go through another hoop to get like it's just gets ridiculous. Um, but obviously that's not going to change, so I can't change any of that. I'd probably just say honest, a bit more honesty in the industry, just in terms of people's careers and just being more, yeah, open, like kind of what I said earlier about having a more inclusive space, just making people feel like they can get into a space that's typically not for them, and that finance doesn't have to be like you don't have to come into finance and be in finance yeah roles.

Speaker 2: 47:43

You can do marketing, you can do HR, you can do um compliance, like there's so many different things you can do and it's just transferring your skills over. And I think, instead of people trying to be like, oh I'm in finance, art, this is amazing, maybe they should be a bit more like this is something that everyone can do, rather than this is a very exclusive area that not many people can do and I'm really good at what I'm doing and no one else can do it because I'm a genius kind of thing yeah, I think as well with finance is when you open up those doors and you have more diversity of thought coming through and a more diverse profession, more inclusive profession, when you've got people like yourself who are using money as a force for good.

Speaker 1: 48:27

Right, you're using not only are you giving back in terms of using a thrive sort of financial education platform helping people bolster their own financial education, but the philanthropy you're doing helping the environment. It's turning financial planning into a force for good, like it's making the profession. You know, I think money is a resolution to a lot of problems, right and the world at the moment. There's a lot of collective issues that we're going through and being able to apply this profession and have a really positive, tangible impact. 100%. That needs to happen and that comes from openness and honesty of where things might need to change, the direction we want to move forward in.

Speaker 1: 49:05

And my final question for you, phoebe, is I think you've obviously come on and you've shared your career story and I loved it right from when you came in with Gumption and you went and approached First Wealth and said I want to work here, to the point where you went to your director and you said I've got. You know, I want to manage B Corp here's a job spec, here's a job title even through to sort of the process you've built around that with having each person with five pillars and just generally getting involved with so many things, what would your advice be to somebody who is starting out in the profession, who feels inspired by your story and you know what is your advice to them on how to bring them, how to present that version of themselves in the working environment, how to have that confidence, how to have that gumption um, I'd probably say, um, just don't be scared to do it.

Speaker 2: 49:54

Um, I think a lot of my I've run off the quote of what's the worst thing that can happen, like, realistically, when you're doing something, what is the worst thing that will happen? So, yeah, if I took them that job title and role and they said, no, that's not gonna happen, I just go, okay, cool, that's fine, I'll just be at the point that I'm at now. The only place you can go from when you ask for something is up. You can't go back down. So I think that's probably my biggest bit of advice and also, just be nice about it.

Speaker 2: 50:28

There's there's a lot of things that you you can be like I could be a horrible person and be like I want this, I want that, like just demanding. But I think if you're just I get open and honesty about what you want to do, why you want to do it, and then don't be scared to actually bring these ideas to people that are receptive to them, then I think that's one of the good things about first wealth is that I can kind of come to them with these ideas and they go, yeah, actually that could work and it gives me the space to be able to do that. I do have a lot of confidence, so I'd probably say just having confidence as well, um, and not yeah, just not being afraid to go and do what you want to do.

Speaker 1: 51:13

Really, it sounds so cheesy no, and I think also a nugget of wisdom to take from that is probably how, if you know, if people are are in positions of senior management is to have an open policy where people can feel confident and comfortable enough to come and talk about these things like let the, let these ideas come to light. And I love, I love that quote you said you know you, the only place you're going when you ask these questions is up, and so it's absolutely no wonder that you have won the rising award and sort of rising star award with the women in finance this year, last year, phoebe um, and thank you so much for joining us on Financial Planner Life. I'm so thankful that you've come and shared not only your career journey but also what B Corp is like working in financial planning and the absolute golden nuggets of wisdom you have shared through today.

Speaker 1: 52:03

I know this is going to be a fantastic episode for people of all levels and I'm just very thankful. So thank you, phoebe, and yeah, thank you, financial Planner is another episode from me, charlie, and I'll catch you soon.