Is Self Employed The Wrong Way To Fix The Financial Adviser Gap? Rob Atherton Shares Why We Need More Employed Options For Trainee Financial Planners.

Can the financial planning industry sustain itself without adapting to the needs of new talent? 

Join us on the Financial Planner Life podcast for a thought-provoking conversation with Rob Atherton as we tackle this urgent question. We start by examining entry-level opportunities and the growing debate between employed and self-employed roles. Both Rob and I stress the need for companies to transform their career development plans to cater to ambitious individuals, even those without prior experience. 

My own career journey—from recruitment to a leadership role at Hoxton Capital—adds a personal layer to our discussion, highlighting the diverse paths within the financial planning profession.

As we navigate the complexities of this industry, we focus on the persistent challenges faced by aspiring financial planners, particularly the struggle to find meaningful training opportunities. With a significant portion of current advisors nearing retirement, the urgency to fill the impending advice gap has never been greater. We share our insights and experiences from mentoring individuals through LinkedIn, emphasizing the crucial role of persistence and self-advocacy. Rob and I delve into the barriers that continue to hinder new entrants and advocate for industry-wide changes to provide more employed roles, ultimately ensuring the profession's sustainability and growth.

Our conversation doesn't shy away from the need for modernization within the financial advisory field. We discuss the efficiency gaps caused by outdated processes and underscore the pivotal role of training academies in nurturing new talent. Highlighting the success stories of smaller firms and debating the effectiveness of such investments, we call on large, established companies to lead by example. Imagine a future where financial planning is as structured and supportive as professions like law or accountancy; that's the vision we hope to inspire. Tune in to hear how innovative firms like Hoxton are paving the way, setting new standards, and embracing fresh perspectives to transform the industry for future generations.

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Hi everybody, welcome to the Financial Planner Life podcast and today's guest is Rob Atherton and we talk all things academy and entry level opportunities into financial planning. We have a bit of a heated discussion really about employed, self employed, the amount of money that's spent on training and development staff. We take a look at how companies should really change their career development plans to start to adapt it to take on people without experience but the hunger and desire to want to become a financial planner. And we look at some of the challenges in the profession smaller businesses, aging advisor population running a business and these are stopping people getting into the profession. But what can we do about it? I hope you enjoy the episode. I got you laughing straight away, rob. Welcome to the Financial Planet Life podcast. How are you, sir? Yeah, I'm great.

Speaker 2: 1:02

Thanks for having me Really looking forward to today Having a good chat with podcast. How are you, sir? Yeah, I'm great Thanks for having me Really looking forward to today I'm having a good chat with you. How are you?

Speaker 1: 1:10

Sometimes I'm good, mate, I'm really good. I'm good, I'm busy. I'm sort of transitioning from Financial Planet Life into Hoxton Capital with my new role of head of creative, which is amazing, but still using and still utilizing the podcast and the financial plan of life as a platform to be able to attract new talent and to raise brand awareness for Hoxton Capital as well. So, very, very busy. I've been working with them in the background anyway, so I've been getting stuff done and I've got a few things. I'm bringing to the table quite soon some quite exciting announcements, specific people that are coming wow, that's interesting, isn't it?

Speaker 2: 1:45

but I know you're super entrepreneurial. But yeah, just to say well done. That's really exciting and congratulations. And um, you know I'm sure you're going to be incredibly successful at hoxton capital management. So well done, and I'm looking forward to seeing the developments and you helping attract new people into the profession. That's what it's all about, isn't it?

Speaker 1: 2:01

well done, that is what yeah, that is what it's all about and thank you so much for those kind words and I think I. When I created the financial planner life podcast, it was a platform to be able to not only inspire people within the profession to push ahead by hearing stories from their peers ups and downs around to the job, hints and tips, but a big part of it was to inspire the next generation or those from outside of the profession to consider financial planning as a career so I suppose.

Speaker 1: 2:26

I suppose in a way I'm living proof that the podcast has taken me from a world of recruitment now into a leadership team within a business of 300 as a head of creative. So if I can do it, other people can do it. Anything is possible and you don't have to. The financial planning profession as a financial planner although we do need.

Speaker 2: 2:42

There are other job roles within it yeah, yeah, definitely, that's a well done, and I think that's a really important point, isn't it that you know it's a diverse community and a lot of people fell into financial planning back in the day, and there's so many other things you can do other than financial planning. So, yeah, inspirational, that's a well done beautiful.

Speaker 1: 2:59

Thank you so much for that. You're like a little bit of a celebrity.

Speaker 2: 3:01

You are, rob, awful no, I like having it well. No, I mean, I love, I love LinkedIn and uh, you know it's a great community, but I'm useless on Facebook. I'm useless, useless on TikTok and Instagram, but uh, yeah, I'm a bit of a geek on LinkedIn, I guess why is LinkedIn so interesting to you?

Speaker 1: 3:22

why do you find LinkedIn so comfortable?

Speaker 2: 3:26

uh, well, it's a great question. Um, I think it blends the best of you know Facebook. So the social side just people like that, good sense of humor, you can build a friendships and a community. But fundamentally, um, we've got lots of financial planners on there and I love the profession. So it's a great chance to learn from people, share ideas, debate, make friends which I've done learn new things. But also it's okay to post things on your personal life.

Speaker 2: 3:59

You do it, don't you? Nice pictures of you with your family on a Sunday, for example, me with Malaysia. So it's not dry. People are very friendly, they'll reach out to you and, uh, you don't get the trolling that you do on maybe some of the other sites. So for me, it's got the best of you know, uh, facebook and instagram, but it's also got that business, uh, professional development side, uh, and I suppose I've always. For me, profession's a hobby. I've always loved working and I've always loved getting things with my brain. So, you know, I felt twitching off. So, even though I've sort of stepped out of the profession for a while, as you know, linkedin has kept me connected and helped me learn new things and make new friends. So, yeah, it's very special. I think we should not take it for granted, because it's quite unique I think it builds a community, doesn't it?

Speaker 1: 4:49

and something really that the financial profession possibly has lacked over the years is community collaboration. Um, it's always been a really kind of almost um, what's the word? Um, competitive profession advisors not really sharing information or talking about the ups and the downs, the reality of the job, even sharing things like their personal life. So when I look at the financial profession, for me somebody who's on the outside looking in now inside it right is that I saw all these different people within it all these different businesses, but not a great deal of personality.

Speaker 1: 5:21

Rob and I think a financial advisor could stand out so easily in that marketplace, because 90% of advisors aren't really talking about what they do for a living, what they love about it, how this you know the solutions that they've got for their clients and simplifying financial planning, so people actually understand it and get it. So I think it's just a huge amount of opportunity, which is what I'm really excited about is how can I bring that profession to life? How can I bring the financial education to life as well? How can we get more people using financial planners? And, secondly, how can we get more people involved in the profession? Linkedin's obviously a fantastic place for career development as a recruiter.

Speaker 1: 5:58

that's where we live, that's where we made our money it's linkedin um, you're somebody that's incredibly passionate about getting new people to join the profession. Well, tell us a little bit about some of your experiences then. Around that, have you helped many people? Um, why are you doing it?

Speaker 2: 6:19

yeah, yeah. So yeah, probably for about the last 18 months. I mean, I've always been on LinkedIn but, as you're probably aware, I've built up a couple of practices, I've transferred them on to a really great team and they're doing really well. I promised myself a bit of a break. To give it a bit of context, I've worked really hard prior to joining Financial Planning, by the way, but you know, pretty much full on 20 years as an advisor. I worked from low to charter and then I built two practices and obviously you've got to manage them. You're working seven days a week, you're getting up early, all the stuff that you know goes with running a business. You all know that. So, hr, legal, it.

Speaker 2: 7:00

So I promised myself a break, because I think the big joke was, you know, when everybody else was in Abbasok on the beach and this will resonate with anybody in Cheshire, liverpool or Manchester Rob's car was parked outside the office on a Sunday and him and I would be in the office. You know you'll be like that and you're preparing to go on a Monday, aren't you? So I've always wanted to have my own business. I've always, you know, been an entrepreneur. I've had other businesses, been entrepreneurial, I've had other businesses, um, but I, uh, you know, decided to have a break, have some me time, which I probably neglected, uh, without covid as well. I built the second business in covid, which was really challenging, but, you know, I'm really proud of the, the achievement. They're recruiting maybe up to 20 people all digitally that I hadn't met and actually physically meet them a year, year and a half after.

Speaker 2: 7:42

So, um, you, no, I decided have a break, put no deadline on it, um, and do some personal stuff. So, you know, we we finished renovating a property that we had in manchester, which I bought as a shell many years ago, and it's been a bit of a labor of love on a project, but I hadn't finished it, so we finished that. It was eight years on gives you an idea, um, and we spent some time with family in Malaysia. Obviously, with Covid, we were locked down and catching up with family and friends, all the things that you might um neglect if you're running a business. I suppose that's quite important for people listening here, because we're going to talk about self-employed versus employed, and although it's great to run a business, you know it comes with lots of challenges and you make sacrifices. So what was interesting? I went into this period of me time, sam, with no deadline on it, but I very quickly got bored and that will resonate with you you know, that's the restless entrepreneur.

Speaker 2: 8:36

So linkedin was a way of keeping me connected, building up new relationships, new social capital, to remember had been a little bit well institutionalised. Sjp is great and I was very proud to be part of SJP. Crumbs, dave, you've got to be listening. Get that one in. No trolling, dave, my best mate. I need to show some Marmite then, si. But no, sjp was great and before that, bank of Scotland was fantastic. I came through Grace Academy if he was great. And before that, bank of Scotland was fantastic.

Speaker 2: 9:03

I came through a great academy, but pretty much 20 years full on working hard as a financial planner, then building a business, and LinkedIn for me was a way of staying connected, learning upskilling. And yeah, sam, I'm passionate. I think we you know Barbie and a footballer for a city, a striker for City. There's nothing I'd prefer to do and I can't ever see myself retiring. So I definitely want to get back in. But what I've done is I've spent a lot of time sort of in the background. It's all pro bono, sort of people have reached out and I've tried to give them a stir, because it's not easy to get into this profession. But and you're really passionate too and you know it's not not easy actually, for being really honest about it. You know you're one of the top recruiters and you know there's some others out there. We'll give a few name checks and we've got Dave in, but you've got Andy Taylor people like that really good people, um, but they don't have roles for training financial planners. You, you know how difficult it is. So I think what I'm really proud of I shouldn't have had to do it, but I do think anybody listening to this, in a position to make a change, should really listen.

Speaker 2: 10:10

I think my achievement is I've stopped a lot of people actually giving up and leaving before they've even answered. If that makes sense, they're probably 30 40 people. I don't know the numbers, but they'll have self-studied to diploma and they'll reach out to me and you, you know they're pretty much very down. They've done all the right things but they can't get an opportunity. So what I've helped them do and you know it's no secret because I put it all out on LinkedIn I've helped them. You know, stay positive and I've sat in the background giving them a steer. You know, obviously it's tailored to them and their circumstances, but I'd like to think that the vast majority, sam, are in a better place for those chats, whether that's somebody who has self-studied from outside our profession to diploma, who couldn't get in, and then maybe has got that opportunity now. Maybe there's somebody who's been in a practice where they've been let down, they've been promised an opportunity, maybe that power planner to advise, an opportunity that doesn't materialise quite often It'll help them, you know, maybe have the right conversations with the employer. You know lots of examples, but I've made a lot of friends and you know, definitely those people are now in financial planning roles, which is great.

Speaker 2: 11:25

But what that's shown me is the problems we face and, if you think about it because this is why I wanted to come on here today we need to get some serious messages out, don't we? And the biggest one is this advice gap. If you think about it, I'm not the most intelligent person, but I can do basic maths, but we've got 31,000 advisors. 50% are going to leave in the next five to 10 years. I saw something on LinkedIn, if I can believe it, sam, I don't know what you think, but I saw something the other day that said half the IFAs are going to retire in the next one to two years, which is even more profound than 15,000 leaving in the next five to 10 years. And if you crunch the numbers, we need 1,500 to 2,000 new advisors every year.

Speaker 2: 12:04

Yet you world-class recruiter and people like Andy, don't have any roles, or very few. They're scarce and most people need employed, not self-employed. Yet we tend to push self-employed and you know I've been self-employed, you've been self-employed, we know self-employment's great for the right type of person. But if we're ever going to solve the advice gap and what we keep doing is talking about the advice gap it's not going to work if we carry on with the same old. Same old, which is, um 80 percent of roles are self-employed. Most of the big academies are self-employed, um, and you know you and I both know that we're losing people to other professions, whether that's solicitors, accountants, but it could be anything, because any young person coming out of university or even self-studying to diploma, if they don't meet a sam or a rob, they give up, and you know that and I know that.

Speaker 2: 12:58

So that that's what I've been doing in the background on linkedin, helping people, you know. Maybe if they're in a company and feeling frustrated, my first conversation is go and have a chat and you ask I think you know, if you want to ask me what advice I'd give to any new starter in the industry, you know or profession Oops, I'm going to be shot down for that, aren't I In the profession? Oh, my goodness, that'll get your ratings up. Okay, the financial management profession, the wider industry. But a lot of people are self-studying to diploma and they can't get in. So all they're in a firm where they're trapped in a role and they're unhappy and they're looking to leave. So what I say to them first is go back to your employer, as you would, and have a chat, because you very quickly learn as a trainee advisor. You know when I was at bank of scotland, if you stay quiet you'll be overlooked and advisors do have big personalities, so you have to be prepared to stick up for yourself. So you know, to anybody out there watching this, if you're in a role where you've been promised the trainee advisor role and it's not happening for whatever reason, you know you're still a power planner, the most important thing that person can do is knock on the door of the employer in a positive, constructive way, be very nice, but just say you know I'd like to talk about um. You know what we discussed before about making that transition to financial planner, because there's a lot of people who have been promised that and can't get it. Then you've got the people who I think we've got to say it's amazing, they've just found our profession and decided to study. It's a diploma and a lot of them are at diploma or very close to it. So from mine and your point of view, sam, if we were running a financial services practice, they're exactly the type of person we'd want to talk to.

Speaker 2: 14:41

Yet there's very few job adverts out there. The recruiters don't have them. They've probably got very little in savings behind them. They've probably come out of university with a debt or they're looking to pay save up for a home or they're paying, you know, a lot of rent. They just can't entertain self-employed. So they would enter our profession if they could find an employed role.

Speaker 2: 15:03

So with people like that, I um that I steer them in different directions. But you know, first of all I'd say to them, providing they've not got an employer and it's not going to put them in a difficult position. Let's get an open to work post out. So I give a bit of guidance, but they would do it. You know sort of generally from them Something about them as an individual, them as a person, nice photo in in a professional environment and something in the private life, so you see the rounded individual.

Speaker 2: 15:31

They then post it. I would then reshare it, you know, and, to be fair, today my mate, dave, and we do get on really well. He days really passionate about this after meets up. One day won't we have some durian, a mama, but no. So Dave, for example, will always help and there's a good community to your point where people reshare um, and then you know, bespoke speculative applications. They were not discussing an approach, but I've taken people on that way, even though I promised myself I wouldn't.

Speaker 2: 15:58

But if you, you as an employer, get this great letter from somebody that's written to you and it brings to life what they can do to help your business and they genuinely show that they know about your business, you're likely to engage with them.

Speaker 2: 16:10

So that's another route, plus talking to you know, not just saying it's great people like you and the other really good recruiters and I think, to be fair to you guys, maybe, like the press, don't treat financial planners fairly. You guys get a bit of a bad press, but I know what great work you do. So really it's a case of getting out on linkedin telling people you've got to diploma, uh, and you know, clean your name out there, looking in your area for the type of role you'd like, making bespoke applications, and if you look here recruiter will have one at that time and there's some really good people like you and andy, etc. How many more james, etc. Who will spend the time to help people? So what we do, sam, is our mini community in linkedin. We keep these people's confidence up because without us they're absolutely leaving.

Speaker 1: 16:56

Um, so loads to unpack, loads to unpack in that and lots of it in there. I agree with lots of it. I want to question and have a bit of a chat with you about sure, do you think one thing right? Do you think some of those people that are coming to you and they're really downhearted right, so they've done their level four qualification and, yeah, in their head they've got the impression, once they've done their level four qualification, they should be able to walk straight into a job role within financial planning because there is a shortage of financial planners. So one they're disappointed that there isn't as many jobs advertised. Do you think, though, that some of those people are just not suited to financial planning? They shouldn't be a financial planner. In fact, probably their skill set is unrealistic and their experience is unrealistic to think that they should walk straight into a financial advisor role regardless if there's a shortage I'm not meeting people like that, sam, I'm not getting that arrogance, I'm not getting anybody who, um, feels a sense of entitlement at all.

Speaker 2: 18:45

So you know, and you see me posting, don't you? So obviously I don't delete the name, but you know some, the posts, the nice gratitude posts and things, but no, nobody's coming to me with a sense of entitlement bleating, saying I've done this. What they're basically saying is I'm looking for adverts, I can't find them. I'm applied for a trainee role, but they want me to come a power planner first. They hear that one a lot. Yeah, and you know they might be engaged with somebody, but there's no route to CAS, competent advisor status. No, absolutely not. The people I'm engaging with are very humble and they've demonstrated a passion for the profession and they're quite simply, sam, to be very direct, not getting a chance. And and actually what we should be doing rather than blaming those individuals? I absolutely believe anybody can you know, because if you look at transferable skills, we should be open to a diverse community of people to come in. And you know, yes, there's a certain dna, if you like that, that you can, uh, probably analyze and say you know, advisors would have a certain dna, but no, we've got it totally wrong. We we're sending out the wrong messages. If I'm waking up on linkedin and I'm seeing self-employed ex-military, I'm seeing self-employed ex-professional football, I mean crumbs, that's one percent. Now, how many people I've been in a profession for 20 years have I worked with as advisors, have been ex-military, ex-professional footballers? Obviously I've met someone linkedin, but the one percent.

Speaker 2: 20:20

So if those academies that are targeting you know I won't name names, but we know who they are they're putting out um adverts for an e-sector. That's the reason. Make the connection that the person who's paid to get to diploma, taking a year to do it, maybe he's doing something you know, maybe they've done some work for free in in this summer that you know they're really trying to get into the profession. They can't because, um, the roles on offer are self-employed, not employed, and the message is messages we're sending out we're looking for a 35 year old with a pension in payments and cash in the bank. If one of those academies and this is my why I want to come on here one of those academies, the footsie hundreds or 250s, if they were to announce tomorrow, like you've joined hoxton in your major announcement, if one of them came out and said great news we've now got a genuinely diverse academy with employed roles.

Speaker 2: 21:17

I've made myself redundant. I'm not getting people contacting me because they can actually get a route into the profession. These people are locked out, sam, and I don't think we should be blaming them at all. No, and I've never come across anyone as arrogant. They're absolutely humble, um, and they've tried everything they can, and then they reach out and, um, you know, I don't really say yeah, I wasn't sort of implying that they're arrogant.

Speaker 1: 21:42

I'm just wondering whether or not you know. Just because you've got the qualifications to be a doctor doesn't make you mean you make a good doctor no, I agree, but well, let me fast forward then.

Speaker 2: 21:55

Of all the people that reached out to me and this will resonate with you as a recruiter I would say 90, possibly 100, have found a role, but it's really hard work and I've had to put a lot of effort in and they've had to put a lot of effort in. But go back to the start of this. How are we possibly going to solve the advice gap and you're really passionate about that and you're going off to do things to help with that if, going back to it, half the advisors are retiring in the next five to ten years and we've got 1,500 to 2,000 people that we need to recruit? And I'm getting people reach out to me there might be the odd person, sam, but I haven't spotted it but they've all ended up in a role. But how they found those roles is by, you know, putting a lot of effort in and probably finding a local IFA or a local practice that will take them on. Well, they'll take them one to three a year.

Speaker 2: 22:44

A recruiter like yourself will have a job, a trainee advisor job every now and again or, through goodwill of the community, the open to work will get a reaction. Let's check it in a way. Sam, let me ask you a question when you compare that to the medical profession, to the legal profession, to the accountancy profession, don't you think that we're really unprofessional? Doesn't it sound like we're a cottage industry and really tin pot? So, rather than focus on the individual going, you know, have you got the right traits? We don't actually know that till we're giving them a chance, but at least they've got the qualification to get in the door, but they can't get in it yeah, I think in legal accountancy we have a clear-cut route into the profession.

Speaker 1: 23:29

It's also ingrained in the education system so people understand what the role is before they've even gone to university. They might well have gone to um, an open day or some kind of career fair where you are laid out in front of you the steps it takes to become a partner in accountancy firm right what it looks the qualifications you need, the experience you need.

Speaker 1: 23:51

So it's very clear cut and you can go from uni straight into and I think that kind of connection between university education and the financial planning profession, which in its own sense is quite young, um, because if we go pre-rdr, it wasn't you know, it was connected to the banks. It it was 250,000 advisors. The clear-cut route was going to a bank be a cashier, personal banker, mortgage advisor, financial advisor, bank manager, financial advisor. It was amazing, right, and you can do that. You get your qualifications, you can sit down with clients and you might then step over into the world of independent advisors. So you're a financial planning business. We don't have that anymore. You it's under 30 000 businesses and businesses that are probably average size of about 10, with people running those businesses that don't have any interest in growing the business. Right, they don't want to grow the business because, actually, why would you take time training and developing somebody if you're about to exit the profession? This is the problem. We have too many people running small businesses that don't really want to grow a business anymore. They want to exit and it's a tricky one because we're in a conundrum where the fact is, we need more people, loads of people out here need financial advice, but no one's willing to try and develop them correct there

Speaker 1: 25:01

isn't, there isn't ability. There isn't an ability to build a I don't think at the moment a employed model on on scale. I don't think. I think what has to happen is the firms in the profession at the right point, at the right level of wanting to grow, need to look at their career development plans all the way from trainee all the way up to somebody running a business within you know or becoming a partner within their business, and they need to develop their career development framework to be attractive to people to come on and work through a clear-cut career progression framework. So if you look to the likes of foster de novo I've been doing some work with that they've got a fantastic career development plan. They'll take somebody on any experience and the development plan will will super charge them all the way up to whatever route they want to go. If they want to step across into power planning, they want to be compliance, if they want to be office managers and marketing or projects, or become a financial advisor, employed, self-employed, employee benefits I mean, I'd be looking at companies like that right now.

Speaker 1: 26:06

Yeah, yeah, it's being ones of that size that have just taken investment from crestline. They've just taken investment so they're all supercharged to grow right, they're not doing it. They're looking to grow. And those types of companies I'll be looking at and saying what are you doing about your academies? What are you doing about your career development plans? How, how um constructed are they? How accessible are they? How much are you talking about them? Because why am I talking? To like them? Because I need to bring it to the surface, because they're doing an amazing, amazing job. But not every company can do.

Speaker 1: 26:36

Small firms need to adopt that big firm mentality and build it into their career frameworks more so as well, because if they don't do that, they're going to lose their staff to actually do because if you've got, somebody who's an administrator or power planner sitting in another company right, and let's say, we've got I don't know how many power planners, loads of power planners right, loads of them I can't remember the exact number and weirdly right, I think like three quarters of those power planners are actually female as well.

Speaker 1: 27:04

So we talk about the disparity between female and male advisors and the lack of women, and loads of women's wealth is happening. You've got a problem to that. You've got a solution to that problem sitting in power planner roles, but not a lot of power planners being given a. Okay, you're a power planner, but how about becoming a financial advisor? Let's upskill you and train you and immediately those positions, because that will then backfill those roles and people will come in and want to work in having power planning because there'll be opportunities there yeah um it's a really spot on, really tricky.

Speaker 2: 27:31

You're spot on yeah when you think about ai and coming in and you know this is a controversial one, but I don't really see how this is a really controversial one. But the future is an advisor will have an end-to-end system. I mean we can talk about consumer duty but we obviously good client outcomes. We need to make sure that those providers that take, you know, three to six months to transfer a pension start to get into the modern world, because at the moment we've got 60% of the profession on DocuSign and Origo and the other 40% shuffling paper where everything else is on your phone.

Speaker 1: 28:07

You know.

Speaker 2: 28:07

So for our profession to survive, we're going to have to get into the modern world, because everything else is end-to-end. If you think about the banking checks, it was five days to send a check. Now it's ten seconds. So why does it take so long to transfer a pension? Now, that's one of the reasons so many advisors want to leave.

Speaker 2: 28:27

Obviously, I've come out of a business because I'm spending 80% of the time fighting fire back office issues. So I think those IFAs or practices where they don't want to or they're not developing people, it's probably because they're stuck in a quad buyer of admin and back office stuff, because the fun of the role is actually growing your business with clients. Now what you then need is the FCA and the government and they've got the teeth of consumer duty to actually make sure the providers work to strict timescales, because, as an advisor, you can't give a good client outcome if you're organized client outcome if you're organised. But the company you're dealing with is living in a prehistoric age, dealing with paper and wet signatures. So what I hope is there's lots of things that need to come together and you've hit the nail on the head.

Speaker 2: 29:21

But one thing I do disagree with. You talked about that fantastic company that will train people. Ask Lloyd to do it, but what I can tell you is they're massively oversubscribed. It, um, you know you talked about that fantastic company that that will train people. Ask what lloyd do it. But what I can tell you is they're massively oversubscribed because duncan gregory, who heads it up to an old friend of mine, and, um, you know the young people that come to me, they can't get on it because there are no roles. And then you've got sort of like obby bobby is obviously brilliant and ativo.

Speaker 2: 29:45

There are lots of good examples of those small companies that are very kind of it. So you know, sam, think about it. Why wouldn't, let's say, a Quilter, an SJP, an M&G, an Openwork, true Potential, those top five go to the market? Because you said you can't, you don't think it's financially viable. It is because if an ascot lawyer can do it and the t votes didn't do it and I, to do it as a small practice, love taking people under employed, I don't buy it. A foot 700 company can create an employed academy and until they actually have that, that discussion in the boardroom and decide to do it and hopefully it's coming we're never going to solve the advice gap because it is definitely square pegs into round holes. It doesn't work.

Speaker 1: 30:30

You've got 80 people wanting employed, but by the way, I'm all for.

Speaker 1: 30:36

Yeah, yeah, I I'm. I'm all for what you're saying. I think there should be an employed academy without a shadow of a doubt. Now, can we spread that thin across the number of partner practices that are out there? Can people start taking a bit more of a punt on people who've got the qualifications and perhaps not the experience? And I think they will naturally do that as advisor numbers dwindle, they're going to have to look outside of the profession or train up admins or power planners. Right, that's going to naturally happen, and I'm kind of a.

Speaker 1: 31:07

I am ahead of the game when it comes to why I built the academy and I foresee that being a massive problem around recruitment, and recruitment is going to come from um, taking people from outside of the profession working with universities and having a clear-cut career framework. There is no choice, it's gonna. It's gonna happen. Otherwise the profession will die on its ass unless technology comes in and takes over it. Yeah, so I'm all for that employed model of the academy. Do you know how much SJP spend on their academy a year out of interest?

Speaker 2: 31:38

Well, I know it's going to be an awful lot and I know you know they and others invest heavily. But you know, rather than answer that, what I would say say is what's the attrition rate? How many people don't come out of it successfully? And don't forget, I've had a lot of experience of many academies, not just fcp one. So they spend a lot of money, but are they spending it wisely? That's, that's what I'd be arguing.

Speaker 1: 32:03

Let's go back and answer the question. You just avoided that. They spend about 28 million a year on that academy. It costs about 60K to put somebody through the academy training that. They deliver about 60K, and most of those are going in as self-employed partners. So you can see the cost associated to hiring and training new people who are predominantly going through it on a self-employed basis, right?

Speaker 2: 32:32

so it's quite a big cost if you think no, hang on, sam. I've come through an academy. It was 100 grand to train me at bank of scotland 20 years ago not inflation proof, but I was employed. But what value did I add for bank of scotland? I built a client bank up from scratch. I attracted tens and tens of millions of pounds to Bank of Scotland. And then I've joined SJP and I've built two businesses with an employed list of people and you know attractive funds.

Speaker 1: 32:58

Comparing a bank to an IRA.

Speaker 2: 33:00

No, people are an investment, not a cost. Sam 60,000, you get that back. You've got to cash flow it. But obviously I've taken people unemployed and self-employed. It's an investment, lots of costs. So what I'm saying is okay, you give me the number and we didn't want to personalise it to SJP because, quilter, you've got all these academies that are spending a lot of money. My argument is it would be more savvy and make more business sense to actually have two streams employed and self-employed, because all of a sudden the people are reaching out to meet and join and those people have already got to diploma. There'll be an absolute credit. They'll flourish in the profession. Now, if you have a career for 10, 20, 30 years at quilter, shp or as a quality ifa, you'll that person will pay that back many, many times over and you know that. So we've got to stop saying it's 60k or 100k. The value of an advisor to a practice is millions, hundreds of thousands, millions, yeah why wouldn't you then employ?

Speaker 2: 33:56

somebody to get a return on investment yeah, I'm not stating it.

Speaker 1: 34:00

I'm not stating it as a negative rob, I'm just saying that that's how much it costs. So when we look at, kind of yeah, but they're not.

Speaker 2: 34:05

They're not, they're not spending it wisely. Because if, if that money then is going on self-employed people and I think right, let me ask you then, sam, and if Andy Payne wants to come on or anybody, because I asked this let me ask you, of the people that the self-employed academies take on, what percentage don't actually make it? I think I've got the answer to this, because I don't think it's changed in 20 years. What do you think?

Speaker 1: 34:27

the answer is I don't. I wouldn't. How many people will actually go through?

Speaker 2: 34:33

Don't flourish as a financial advisor and stay in the company that's trained them.

Speaker 1: 34:38

Okay, so don't flourish as a financial advisor, leave the industry, or just don't stay with that company.

Speaker 2: 34:44

Well, we could look at both separately. But if I take Bank of Scotland, where I was trained, bank of Scotland Investment Service, and some of those people have gone on to, as you will know, really great positions in many, you know, in IFAs etc. But on my intake there were 24 people. We're all employed, I think. Of my intake today in the profession there's four, five, six people. Now, when I look at the SJP Academy and my experience of it and I've trained a lot of people have come out of that academy.

Speaker 2: 35:12

Um, they do a cracking job, you know, and I'm not going to knock it and so the quilter we want, those self-employed economies. All I'm saying to people that are in the pain and you know all the people in the position to change things. If you genuinely want to change the advice gap, just have this conversation about what about if we were to create employee streams, because the people that are coming to me, they've already self-studied the show and initiative, they love our profession, and by investing that 60 000 in them, or maybe even taking it to 100 000 or more, because it might cost a bit more to cash flow them because they haven't got the money in the bank like the footballer would have, or the ex military would, but what they've got, though, is a future proof, their business, because we're going to be like the japanese. The japanese thought giving birth, and they thought they're going to be extinct if we don't create enough financial advisors, mate. This is the thing we're not gonna. We're not gonna solve the advice gap. We're wasting time. So what I've wanted to do is save 20, 30 people and find them roles, but this is little Rob, off to muck. You haven't got roles. One of the reasons you joined Hoxton, andy Taylor, hasn't got roles. The recruiters don't have trainee roles, but yet the academies keep going to the marketplace saying we're open for trainee advisors, but it's all self-employed.

Speaker 2: 36:21

And then the messages. You're talking about women in diversity. Yes, there are ladies in the army, but if the messages ex diversity yes, the related in the army, but if the message is x military, x football or what it does, it turns people off. They actually think this profession is not for me. We need to say but this is the point, your background is irrelevant. And if your question to me is what, what industries should could people enter financial planning from? I would say pretty much any, because if you're ethical, you're prepared to work hard. You care about good client outcomes. You know you've got a thirst to learn, you're interested in the profession. Um, this is the profession for you.

Speaker 2: 36:55

But to your point, we've got to get into the universities, into the creative policy. If we rock up with just a self-employed academy, how many 21 year olds are going to go? That's a great idea. They're not. Oh, I have to. I to pay 20, 30 grand myself to live and I have to finance everything for a year. I'm not the most intelligent person, but the reason we've got a problem is that the big companies because you were talking about the small companies, I agree they're doing an okay job. You know, bringing in people unemployed and within SJP, people like that, companies like that. There are partner practices like ours that will create employed roles. But the FTSE 100 has the big pocket. You've just said it's $22, $25 million, so that should be invested in employing people. Sjp, what's their budget for their entire staff? It will be 30, 40 times that. Sam, how many members of SJP staff are self-employed? It's zero. Think about it.

Speaker 1: 37:50

I'm not the mad one here, oh no, no one's saying you're mad, mate, no.

Speaker 2: 37:53

So why, if you employ, you know, 1,000 people, would you only bring on self-employed advisors? Bank of Scotland didn't do it and, by the way, bank of Scotland brought people from all walks of life.

Speaker 1: 38:08

They might have been the odd ex-military person, but you know, we had a petrol station owner. I think the people who've got the money in the pockets, then their model is self-employed. You know, that tends to be the case. Quilter, though, are taking people on and giving them, I think, if I remember, I never I never worked with quilter academy, but when I spoke to them I think they were paying like two grand a month or something along that line for like 36 months, or something like that I think.

Speaker 2: 38:30

I think they might have, they might have a stream in there, but they, they, they are also heavily self-employed. It's not very well known, but somebody pops up on one of my linkedin posts and shared that information. Never got back, but some will just don't exist, mate, because you're asking me what I've been doing with my time. My time is helping really nice people and I could probably name drop here, but there's a lot of people this is the bit, mate, um, this is a lot of unhappy people out there, actually in these companies that we're talking about, feeling unloved. What I'm saying is that so what they might have done is gone. Okay, there's no employee roles. I'll take the risk of self-employment, but they can't afford to, or, you know, it's not quite worked out in my experience. So if you give that advisor a little bit more time, they will then, you know, develop into something very, very special. But if you're running out of money, you're sweating, you've got a deadline there, you're likely to give in, aren't you? So, by holding somebody's hand and being gentle and nurturing and investing, what you'll have is a loyal person who represents the brand, who's never going to leave. And to come back to the cost investment. Let's say it's $22, $25 million in SJP's case and $60,000. And look, let's congratulate SJP because they do a lot of good for the profession, as do Quilter and True Potential and Openwork and M&G. But why do none of them actually go out in the press on linkedin and say if you're coming out of university, if you're looking for a second career, we're open to bringing you into our academy and we'll employ you because I think hoxton will employ. I know people will employ, ask what we will employ. But the people who actually have the big pockets um have the power to change things. The ones that actually keep going on about the problem of the advice cup and talking about solving it are actually the problem. They're actually the problem. They have the ability to solve it. Yet they perpetuate an assistant to work and, yes, you can talk about the banks and people coming from the cashiers, and I know people have done that and now they own massive practices.

Speaker 2: 40:24

But that wasn't the model. The academies didn't take people from the till to what they were. They were meritocratic and allowed people to come through. On my academy we were all non-industry, non-profession. So one of your questions, I think, is probably going to be around you know what professions um have transferable skills. As I say, on my academy I had a petrol station owner and he's gone on and had an amazing career. I've come back from Japan and had other businesses. I mean nothing about financial planning.

Speaker 2: 40:51

I just saw this advert and it resonated with me. So you know, I think hopefully in the comments we'll get a lot of advisors saying actually we shouldn't be narrowing it down. Look, military is fantastic, sports people are fantastic and we can see their wonderful attributes, attributes which is why they'd want we should be looking at people like that. But those attributes, you know being organized, attention to detail, uh, etc. Etc. Are in many other people and I think if you're passionate, you're prepared to work hard, you will be successful.

Speaker 2: 41:20

But if people can't get in, they can't be successful, and that's my point. And the people have the ability to change it and not doing it. But it's the smaller companies like the Ascot Lloyds that I have no commercial connection with, but I seem to keep plugging them, but I think they're oversubscribed 100 to 1. So if I'm Andy Payne, surely, or SJP, I'm going hang on. If there's a smaller IFA out there, employed people getting great people, and they're oversubscribed 100 to 1, and I'm struggling to get people on the self-employed academy or I I won't be from diverse backgrounds which we keep talking about. Just give people an employed opportunity. Why not run two in tandem either real estate resource. Let me tell you something that let me ask you a question. When sjp branded rebranded, did they spend more on rebranding or on the academy? What do you think? So?

Speaker 1: 42:06

that advertising campaign probably cost a few quid, didn't it? The one on the TV?

Speaker 2: 42:10

Yeah, well, that's the question for everybody else to answer. But that money could have gone into an employed economy, couldn't it? Now I'm not talking SJP, but just invest in people and feed people as an investment, not a cost. Otherwise we're never going to solve the advice gap and I'll have to keep talking to people about know, talking to recruiters, putting open to work posts out there. You spoke applications. The moment a quilter or an sjp go right, we've got an employee academy, they'll take the market and the market then will move and everyone moves to that point and then we'll go wow, we've got a thriving profession. To your point that mirrors accountancy and solicitors. How many solicitors and accountants and doctors are self-employed, sam?

Speaker 1: 42:50

Mate, you're preaching to the.

Speaker 2: 42:52

No, no, you said I avoided the question. You said I avoided the question. What percentage of doctors are self-employed? You know when they train? Zero, isn't it?

Speaker 1: 43:01

Yeah, but it's been established for quite some time what I'm saying is yeah, so it's the solicitor accountants I think I think you feel like I'm against what you're saying, when I'm literally on the same page of you. I've created an academy that's fully independent. I've created a podcast that showcases and educates people about the career within financial planning. My whole sole purpose of financial plan of life is to build the profession through education and to open up conversation yeah, but what you said, sam, I agree with that.

Speaker 2: 43:32

You're a wonderful force for good. But what?

Speaker 1: 43:34

we can all say yeah, but we can all shout from the rooftops all the problems and the things that people, but what we need to do is talk about solutions which is which is, think about it, the the bigger organizations going to employ them.

Speaker 2: 43:49

We've just said, you know, you said to me I didn't give you the budget. I said, no, the budget. But that's a hefty budget, but allocated to employees. Because if we turn up at career departments at universities and we're offering self-employed, most people won't apply. And the point is, at university, if you become a trainee solicitor, trainee accountant, you know, town planner, it doesn't matter what profession, even if you go and work at wagamama, if we come on to salaries, it's employed, isn't it? But that's the issue, isn't it? That you know swear pegs around holes, because you ask me what am I doing and are these people really bothered about going into the industry or profession've?

Speaker 1: 44:28

never said that. Okay, well, you're kind of making what I've said is all I all I asked. The question I asked is some people who are getting level four qualified that want to step in to be, go become a financial planner straight away on an employed basis. Do you think some of those people wouldn't make it as a financial planner and should possibly not do? The role of a financial planner was my point, but he got into it yeah, no, but you're talking about?

Speaker 2: 44:58

do they feel like there's a sense?

Speaker 1: 45:00

of entitlement if you go back. That was how it came across.

Speaker 2: 45:04

But what I'm saying to you, the answer, sam, is no, I don't think that. I think they're really great people who look, who, who need a chance and there is no opportunity there. You're an employer. How many employee financial planning roles does he have? Every year we need 1,500 to 2,000 new advisors and I know, because of a lot of recruiter friends, they don't have the roles.

Speaker 2: 45:29

So we're talking about solving the advice gap. We can't do that without a shift of mindset. You're a force for good, you know. Hopefully I'm a force for good. These comers we're talking about are a force for good, but if they just are fixated on self-employed, what I'm saying is people are already there. They're already there to come in, but they're not. And I think what I've been able to do because you asked me, you know where I've been successful I've managed to stop them not giving up and they've actually found the way in. They won't be through a um. Ask what, lloyd? I've referred a lot of people on to them pro bono, but they can't get on how they're finding the role.

Speaker 2: 46:03

Sam is bumping into somebody like you or andy taylor, or the goodwill of somebody like they forwarding something on linkedin or they put bespoke applications, but obviously they've made up about three to six months effort in and when you take a step back we do look pretty unprofessional as a profession and they can go into other professions. If we keep talking about accountancy and law, that's um probably. You know setting me up to be, you know to be comparing for my 12th accountancy, weather counseling, but any other profession town planning I can't think of any other profession where you start on day one and you pay for yourself to train or you get an allowance where maybe it's debtable or not. But can you self-employed train drivers, bus drivers, anybody you know? So self-employed, you're an entrepreneur. Oh yeah, I've got that in me. We're risk takers, um and it, but it's hard, it's not for everybody and that's the problem, isn't it? So all I'm saying is we'll never solve it, mate. That's why I wake up call. It's impossible without um, a change um of mindset.

Speaker 2: 47:07

If we keep doing the same old, we'll keep looking at the statistics, because you know the answer to this there's a lot of going. You're not going to go with me. We're on the same old. We'll keep looking at the statistics because you know the answer to this there's a lot of it to go at you, not going to go at me. We're on the same side here.

Speaker 2: 47:14

You know that there's only 156 financial planners aged 25 or less and it's about 500 below 30. But yet we keep talking about the older advisors but wanting to take people on on the retirees, but people I'm talking to can't go self-employed, they just can't I. But people I'm talking to can't go self-employed, they just can't. I'm talking to somebody at the moment, sam, amazing person with a private bank. So I need to be a bit careful what I'm saying here.

Speaker 2: 47:37

Really, really amazing person. They're in a private bank. They're all 45K employed looking to go financial planning. They just can't look at self-employed because the stage they are in life rent, the buying a home. So you know they've got that and I think about Maslow's hierarchy They've got that income coming in. Now they're prepared to take a significant drop to become a trainee financial planner. But it has to be employed and I'm working with that person at the moment and you know they're a great person. But they can't apply to these companies that we've spoken about because they're predominantly self-employed and the ifa opportunities and the practice opportunities are few and far between you know um, I just, I just stopped you there.

Speaker 1: 48:24

Can you just move slightly to your left, please? Yeah, I get it. By the way, I know it's frustrating and it it's tricky. You're thinking how's it going to grow, how's it going to build? There's no employed options for these people that want to join on an employed basis. They don't want to be self-employed. It's a really tricky situation. It's about developing a model that works within a profession that doesn't have direct access on an employed basis on a large scale, right? So it's about coming up with well, what have we got and what can we do? What's the, what is the, the solution, uh, to this, um, if there is one, you seem like, uh, you feel like it's not going to happen no, I think there is a solution, sam.

Speaker 2: 49:08

There is. We've talked about it. It's, you know, because you'll go to Hawks and I guess they'll have employed roles. Scott Lloyd, have them, the Tivo have them. What it needs is it needs a FTSE 100-250, one of the privately owned companies, to actually do that, and then the market will shift. And what they'll do the first ones that do it will actually on it and attract all these great people. It'll be great for them. But for whatever reason, because I think the model is 20, 30 years, you know, in existence. But I'm not saying get rid of self-employed academies. They're fantastic, but at least have dual entry.

Speaker 2: 49:43

We talk about diversity, sam. You know we preach about diversity, but yet then we see adverts for just two new sectors. Where's what? Where's the diversity in that? And if we're just self, where's what? Where's the diversity in that? And if we're just self-employed, where's the diversity in that? But these messages are coming out from the same people. We've got to change it. So you know, I I might be spending five, ten hours a day on linkedin helping people. I get messages every morning. I always do my best to help. I think most of them have found a role, but they've put an awful amount of effort in and you can't get to diploma, can you? If you're not passionate and really wanting a career in self-finance, at least give the person a chance If they have a chance and then they don't make it.

Speaker 2: 50:21

But we talk about attrition rates in the self-employed academies. I think it's 75%. That don't make it. Now that doesn't mean they absolutely leave the profession. They might find a way into another profession, but it doesn't mean that they absolutely leave the profession. They might find their way into another profession, but we're certainly not getting 100% of entrance into academies, coming out as flourishing advisors and they might not hit the ground running immediately.

Speaker 2: 50:41

There's a lot of worried people out there. They reach out to me and let's not personalize it to SJP, because most of them are not coming from SJP's academies. They're coming from the other academies. But people really in those academies don't know. The people on those academies, um, you know, are feeling scared. They're feeling vulnerable. They're thinking where's my income coming from? They're self-employed, they've taken the risk. Now if they were employed and it was a more nurturing environment, because we can then talk about coaching, training department although you're very close with corporal taylor, who's obviously a great guy, but there's a lot of components that need to come together here.

Speaker 2: 51:12

So when a person coming into the profession does their due diligence on an academy, they've got to make sure that they get great mentorship, role play, development. I had all that. It's like driving a car you practice before you go out on the road. So I know things have improved, but I still think it's not as good as it was 20 years ago. So if somebody comes in and we're spending 60,000 or 100,000 to train an advisor, we want to make sure we're doing everything we can as a profession to not lose that person, whether employed or self-employed. And you know you shouldn't really be studying for exams. I don't believe in an academy. You can do that in your own personal time. It should all be about practice and development and certainly if you do study.

Speaker 2: 51:55

It needs to be balanced with hands-on training. Well, I've met loads of people who've come out of academies, sam and they don't know how to advise to your point.

Speaker 2: 52:03

You know the open question techniques that Paul talks about all the time. So we have to really go back, sam, to the basics Now. I can talk like this because I've come out of an academy. You know like you made load, you know you learn, you make mistakes. But I've seen a world-class academy. So matthew rings, for example, was on my academy at bankers, got the math. You now heads up the mng academy. That's really refreshing, it's fantastic. Um. So matthew, you know he's obviously had a long period at SGP as well. So I'm hoping that within that M&G academy he'll bring in the work that they're doing is, bringing in that role play, that mentorship. But if somebody comes out without that, the confidence will be shot to pieces and that's why the attrition rate is higher than it should be, because it's all about confidence and momentum. So for me, if you want to just put this into context, I spent nine months in an academy.

Speaker 2: 52:59

I was employed, I bought sessions in Milton Keynes at the old Bank of Scotland Training Centre and every day it was role plays, breaking up into groups. You'd have to do it with a stranger and you'd play the role of a client or an advisor. It was videoed back in the day. We'd have to do it with a stranger and you play the role of a client or an advisor. It was videoed back in the day. We'd have feedback. Um, we'd learn to write reports, you know, because a lot of people talk about going into pipeline first.

Speaker 2: 53:20

Um, we'd then go back to the office and we'd be appointed uh, a mentor the the who was a great advisor themselves and we'd shadow them. They would shadow us and give us feedback. We weren't allowed to see a client, so we were really good at what we did. It's just like learning to drive a car. I know I'll put those posts out and people say they're controversial, but it's not. You can pass your drive in theory, so you can come through an academy and get to diploma, but you might not be good with a client. Now, if you go into your first few client meetings and you get shot to pieces and you can't control that meeting and you you can't build up rapport and gain the trust, you probably will leave it goes back to these internal training programs and development programs and career progression plans.

Speaker 1: 54:01

I think if every financial planning company in the uk took a good look at their career development plan and the personal development plan that runs alongside it, we could solve a lot of these problems. Um, I think what you've got is an old school mentality of I'll only take somebody on when they're, when they're the polished article, when they're the perfect fit, um, when they can go out and start selling and bring an income in. And it doesn't really work like that. It's a bit like that in recruitment. Right, it was always peddled oh, you earn a hundred thousand pound in your first year. Right, you don't earn £100,000 in your first year. What you do in your first year is you learn what it is you need to do and you might be on a basic of 20K. Right, you might earn 30 grand in your first year in total, but next year you earn 60, 70. So experiential growth is based on the experience that you have.

Speaker 1: 54:44

And, as an owner of a recruitment business, your goal was to tie them in. You know, your goal was to tie them in. You know how can I tie them in? Well, you tie them in with good culture, you tie them in with training and development, you give them stuff to work out, you give them meaningful, purposeful work that keeps them there within the business, so your investment eventually pays off. But at the same time, the group is competitive so every other recruiter out there is trying to steal your staff.

Speaker 1: 55:08

And I think there is mentality, also within financial planning, where people are like I'm not going to employ somebody just so someone can come along take them, or they leave when they're unhappy, and I've heard that numerous times and I think that is a bad message and I think it's um, it's toxicity within training and development and and um hiring and it's old school, because old school is saying that because they've gone through a system where it was like salesforce and you had millions of people coming in wanting to do it. It was easy and people were leaving and it wasn't a problem. The problem is that mentality, that culture, is carried on and we don't have a development culture. That's required and it's a reshape of the career development that need to take place.

Speaker 1: 55:54

If you don't have that then you're never going to be confident in hiring somebody. And if you're not confident in hiring somebody, and really you're probably not confident in your culture and your business and the direction. Because that's hoxton, for example. I'm joining them. They have a career pathway and what you said. They employ them right. So it's a pathway one.

Speaker 1: 56:10

And guess what? They don't focus and hyper focus on the qualification straight away. They hyper focus on how do you develop this? I absolutely love that. So I'm going in there on their pathway side to change it into more of an academy vibe. Make sure we get the right people in there, take the chance on the right people, but also we've got an ability is to to keep them in the uk or distribute them out into offshore markets as well, which is quite exciting. Yeah so, but I've looked over their pathway. What the energy and the effort that they spend on doing it. The thing is, rob, this is a young entrepreneurial company that are thinking about growth, not thinking about exiting their business. So you're all these people that run these businesses and they ain't give a shit mate they just want to grow their business get the most value for it and exit now.

Speaker 1: 57:01

They do care. I think they care, but not enough to put energy and effort into a career development plan. So I agree.

Speaker 1: 57:08

Yeah, bigger companies ones out there need to look at. Hang on, there's a bloody opportunity here if we turn the switch and we make an employed model we could clean up only if they have the right career development framework. Now, if I'm somebody new to the profession and I'm going to hit a 25k basic salary, but I know in three or four, five years time I'm 100k plus right, that to me makes total sense. Now I want to know what that roadmap looks like, because otherwise I'm going to turn my head and go elsewhere.

Speaker 1: 57:38

So the employer who's built that employed model has to make it so goddamn attractive that it ties those people in because intrinsically they are aligned to the goal of that business and development plan. There has to be also that agileness, the ability to take somebody from somewhere and put them somewhere else and move them on up and, you know, excel somebody if they want to excel, because different people learn at different paces. People have high iq, people have high eq. Eq is a massive one. It's lacking in financial planning and that that can be trained and that can be developed. Not so much, but eq 100 so training, development right, I'm with you.

Speaker 1: 58:18

Mentorship, support handholding nobody's going to be coming in here and being you know same as recruitment right, you might have 100 people join a recruitment firm. 10 of those are just naturally animals, right? Yeah, they're just naturally animals that are just bang, bang, bang bang. Speak to people. Speak to people. Have all the characteristics and all the um behaviors of somebody who's hungry to develop business right, but they won't have an analytical mind.

Speaker 1: 58:43

They won't be people that sit through the ins and outs of how every investment strategy works so it's about also developing and finding the balance between those people that come into the business and very quickly identify what is their skill set and where are they best suited. I think that's super important as well, and I think there's work to be done without a shadow of a doubt and I hear what things you're saying, I echo everything you're saying and I schroder's, I think are coming to the market with something I think they might be.

Speaker 2: 59:07

Oh no, that's great. So that's what we need. So, um, and I think you know, I think we are agreeing and what you're doing is wonderful with hoxton, and you know we've talked about asphalt lloyd and you know, let's be fair to some of the um, smaller companies, because there are a lot of caring, uh, ifas, and you know practices out there that are absolutely taking on young, young people and giving them a chance. You know, I know one in the man Manchester area that goes into the university and takes one to three people a year. Nobody knows the name because they just quietly get on with it. I think maybe one of the problems and I think Dave talks about this a lot, but it's probably a very relevant point but the consolidators coming in, because if the consolidators weren't there, the IFAs have to train the next generation to take over the business and if you care about your client, you'd want to train um, the next generation to come in and look after your client.

Speaker 1: 59:58

So I'm seeing that more so. Um, I talked to quite one of the large consolidators quite recently who are acquiring a business and within that business, the model is shifting towards taking on advisors on an employed basis that sit and nurture the relationships and then you have advisors that will go out and generate a business. Now I see that breakdown of financial planner into different role types actually being something of real value and I think that's something that's going to be coming in. So the idea it's a bit like in recruitment. I like to compare it. In recruitment you had a 360 recruiter that generated clients and generated candidates and did all the marketing and you wore all these hats and you'd expect that person to do everything right. And then recruitment was like well, hang on, let's have people just resourcing, let's have a researcher, let's have somebody that manages an account and let's have somebody who does new business. And all of a sudden, the role of a recruiter was split across three or four different role types. Business and all of a sudden the role of a recruiter was split across three or four different role types. And three or four different role types were then added to a career development framework so somebody would achieve at certain levels and if they became really really good at resourcing but didn't like the idea of bd, they'd be an expert in that and I think that's what's going to happen.

Speaker 1: 1:01:05

The the dissimulate and break down the role. Break the role down really really into structured um parts of the job. A power planner could be six or seven different roles. You know, an actual planner could be a financial client. Facing financial planner could easily be three or four different roles, depending upon what that person's skill set is and the value and how they're required within that business. I just think out the mentality that someone has to do absolutely everything. Rob, I need to bring this to an end. It's been lovely talking to you. I think we've covered a few things. It's clearly obvious you're passionate, as I am, about generating new people to get them into the profession, but let's not lead them down a path where we're asking them to come in and it's fuck all there for them.

Speaker 1: 1:01:42

You know, like there has to be companies taking a look at their career development plans, moving them around, changing them, adapting them to be able to let good quality people into their companies and stop worrying so much about the risk and do something about it. But I have faith and belief that the next generation of advisor that's coming through will do that because they'll want to businesses me being with hoxton, a young company, who aren't building this right now to sell it next week they're building this to be the number one business. So for me it's like I'm seeing the blueprint already in these companies that are younger and more enthusiastic, that want to train people and develop. In fact, they want to take people on from outside of the profession more so than ones in it, because it's a lot easier to train a new person, to teach an old dog new tricks, yeah. So it's beautiful and it's great. So watch this space. Yeah, I'm going to come out with something right with hoxton, and it's beautiful and it's great.

Speaker 2: 1:02:30

So watch this space because I'm going to be coming out.

Speaker 1: 1:02:33

Yeah, I'm going to come out with something right with Hoxton and it's going to be fucking brilliant. But you need to kind of watch this space and you'll see it and I think others will go. That's not bad, we'll copy that.

Speaker 2: 1:02:44

That sounds really good.

Speaker 1: 1:02:45

So, rob, amazing to talk to you. Really, really appreciate it. Lous towers in the background, by the way. They've been lighting up as we've been talking. Beautiful and enjoy malaysia. Thank you for your time and your expertise and we'll catch up, of course, on linkedin yeah, cheers, sam take care.