Should divorced individuals hold leadership positions within the church? Join us on this profound episode of the Jordan and Kristen Rickards show, where we tackle this pressing question head-on. Kristen opens with a heartfelt prayer for wisdom and peace, setting a reflective atmosphere for our discussion. We delve into the complex realities of divorce, drawing a crucial distinction between those who initiate it and those thrust into it by circumstances like abuse or abandonment. Kristen emphasizes the need for a period of restoration and healing before assuming leadership roles, while Jordan offers his perspective as a divorce attorney, highlighting that victims of abusive marriages shouldn’t be barred from leadership after suitable healing. Both agree that elective divorces for non-emergency reasons, such as midlife crises, require a different consideration for leadership roles.
Moreover, we explore the delicate balance of grace, accountability, and leadership within Christian communities. By delving into Jesus’ teachings on marriage and divorce, we stress the importance of accountability in church leadership, but also the necessity of grace and forgiveness. Through real-life examples of influential Christian leaders who have experienced divorce, we assert that repentance and personal growth are essential for anyone aspiring to leadership. We also touch on the challenges of setting church policies and the critical importance of leading by example to uphold moral standards. Tune in for a thoughtful and engaging discussion that promises to offer wisdom and clarity on this nuanced topic.
Should divorced individuals hold leadership positions within the church? Join us on this profound episode of the Jordan and Kristen Rickards show, where we tackle this pressing question head-on. Kristen opens with a heartfelt prayer for wisdom and peace, setting a reflective atmosphere for our discussion. We delve into the complex realities of divorce, drawing a crucial distinction between those who initiate it and those thrust into it by circumstances like abuse or abandonment. Kristen emphasizes the need for a period of restoration and healing before assuming leadership roles, while Jordan offers his perspective as a divorce attorney, highlighting that victims of abusive marriages shouldn’t be barred from leadership after suitable healing. Both agree that elective divorces for non-emergency reasons, such as midlife crises, require a different consideration for leadership roles.
Moreover, we explore the delicate balance of grace, accountability, and leadership within Christian communities. By delving into Jesus’ teachings on marriage and divorce, we stress the importance of accountability in church leadership, but also the necessity of grace and forgiveness. Through real-life examples of influential Christian leaders who have experienced divorce, we assert that repentance and personal growth are essential for anyone aspiring to leadership. We also touch on the challenges of setting church policies and the critical importance of leading by example to uphold moral standards. Tune in for a thoughtful and engaging discussion that promises to offer wisdom and clarity on this nuanced topic.
Hey everybody, thanks for joining us. Welcome to the Jordan and Kristen Rickards show. Today's topic is whether people who get divorced should be in leadership positions in the church, which I know is a very controversial topic and we should get a lot of comments about it, but it's an important one, so we got to discuss it. All right, Kristen, before we do that, why don't you open us in prayer real quick?
Speaker 2:
Well, thank you, god. Thank you that we can come to you and that you give us the peace that passes understanding. I pray for anyone who's going through any situation right now where they need your wisdom or peace, lord, that you would give that to them and I know you will, because it's a promise that you give to us, lord. I pray that these words that we are about to say would be from you, god, and that you would give us the wisdom and peace to say them. Lord, we honor you and we praise you In Jesus' name. Amen.
Speaker 1:
All right. So the reason we're doing this topic is that a couple of our friends were discussing this recently and they're a husband and wife and of course, they were disagreeing with each other, and I just thought it's something that's important and I think you and I are actually in accord on it. So, kristen, what are your thoughts?
Speaker 2:
real quick, Well, you know, this is such an interesting topic because it's not a one size fits all, but when you're talking about churches and this kind of thing, unfortunately you have to create a precedence. So, even though it is something that is a case by case basis, that's what we're talking about here in this situation. You know, I might just in a nutshell. My belief on this is that God gives second, third, millions of chances. That's what he's all about, because we sin every day, but at the same time, there needs to be a period of time for restoration, healing, whether that's even if it wasn't your sin, if someone, the divorce happened to you, no matter what the circumstance, I do think there needs to be a period of time to step back, because leadership is such a giving out, and it needs to be a period of time to step back for restoration and forgiveness and healing and all those things, and that at some point, yes, leadership can happen again, but there definitely needs to be a period of time, no matter what.
Speaker 1:
All right. So I think the distinction has to start with this. I would say that, as a general rule, someone who gets divorced should not be in a leadership position. However, that is distinct from people who have divorce happen to them, and I would put in that category people who are victims of actual abuse, not people who consider abuse to be like. You know, we get into arguments or he's so controlling that kind of stuff. I mean that's bad stuff. But you know people who are victims of abuse and you and I look, I'm a divorce attorney, ok. So there are people who think that I shouldn't even be having this show because that's like a leadership position.
Speaker 1:
But the reason I got into it is because you and I both know people who were victims, physically at risk of dying okay, because of the marriage they were in, and to me, I pulled them out of burning buildings. That's no different than what a firefighter does. God doesn't like arson, but he certainly wants to save the people in the building. God doesn't like divorce, but he wanted me to rescue those people from really dangerous situations, okay, so I don't think people like that are in the same position as somebody who's getting divorced because they're having a midlife crisis or they just feel like well, you know, my happiness has to come first and I'm just not happy in this relationship.
Speaker 1:
Like I don't know how we got the idea that happiness your happiness is the ultimate moral good, because it's also the happiness and well-being of your children. But there's also the solemnity of the marriage that you entered into. Right? Jesus says if anybody gets divorced for any reason other than adultery and you remarry, then you're committing adultery and we would never have a conversation like well, christian, you know, you think somebody who's actively committing adultery should be in a leadership position in the church? Like, absolutely not. So when it comes to divorce, like if you're getting divorced, we'll call it like an elective divorce I don't think you should be in a leadership position Now. It's different if that's in the past and you've realized what's what happened and you've repented of it.
Speaker 2:
So you're saying what I'm saying about the period of time, or you're saying at all.
Speaker 1:
I'm saying the period of time First of all. Anytime there's a divorce, I think you do need a period of time for healing, because I know the enemy wants to take advantage of people when they're at their weakest right, and so I think you got to take care of yourself first. But I'm absolutely saying there's a difference between somebody who either their spouse left them like with Charles Stanley, he did not want to get divorced, but his wife left him okay or Joyce Myers, who was divorced early in life but you didn't really know the Lord then, but now has come to God and has been married like a half a century now, or something like that. You know somebody who's escaping domestic violence, that sort of thing. Or somebody you know who's with somebody who wants to be with another person. You know when there's adultery in the relationship and it's not your fault.
Speaker 1:
Obviously that's a different category of people. People who have divorce happen to them. I don't think that's any different, you know, than becoming a victim of any other affliction and that person sure they need to heal, okay, but I don't think that should be a bar to them returning to leadership. Somebody who, on the other hand, thinks divorce is just okay because you know, yeah, we could have stayed married, but I wasn't happy in that marriage. I'm sorry, that's nonsense. There's a word I want to use that I can't use. But you don't get to do that. And then just say and remain in leadership. And I think, by the way, in the circumstance that our friend was describing that person was, it was an elective divorce, they were going through it and then still wanted to stay in leadership. And our friend was like, no, that's just not how this is going to work.
Speaker 2:
No, I agree, you know you think about well. First of all, what did Jesus say? Jesus hated divorce. He hated, you know, what God has put together. Let man not separate. However, at the same time, look at how, you know, that would have been shocking. The woman at the well who had been divorced or whatever, had six or seven husbands. God did not say to her oh, you're too far from grace. He looked at her, he did say sin no more, whether it was her or the woman who had committed adultery. He did say that to them. So it wasn't a pass, but he loved them and forgave them. And look at David and that mess, all the mess that he created. And so there is restoration, because that's the whole point of the gospel, of course, but at the same time, it's dangerous.
Speaker 2:
I think what I see in the churches as a generalization is this move towards and it's not just with divorce, but it's this move towards. You know, this is okay or that's okay, in an effort to show that God has grace, which he does. But the point of grace is the restoration, is the repentance. It's not so that you can just take the line and put it over here. We need accountability in churches for our own sake. Every person needs accountability. I feel like there needs to be more accountability in leadership, because people are falling through the cracks and Satan is attacking and the weight is on them, and that's when Satan gets into their marriages. You just see it, it seems like the wildfire everywhere. Also, we need to define what is leadership, because leadership can also be in ministry and prayer as elders, not just a pastoral position.
Speaker 2:
I saw in one progressive Pentecostal church. I couldn't believe it. They said if you had been divorced, you couldn't pray over people. Well, a person I know, quite a few people who are deep, strong men and women of faith, and one in particular who, again, divorce happened to them. They didn't even do this and that is where they got their spiritual strength. And I look at this person. That's a role model to me and I think that person can't pray over somebody. Yet someone who's doing something like pornography or sinning in the dark is out there praying over people. Right, you know that is. That does not make sense to me.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, right, and that's the problem with having hard and fast rules. I mean, look, we know people who committed heinous crimes and went to prison and started prison ministries. Absolutely All right, and that's and that's a leadership position. You know, I said to you before, if you were, if you had a struggle with alcohol, you wouldn't go to an AA meeting which is being led by somebody who is currently struggling with alcohol right, that's right.
Speaker 1:
So the person you'd want leadership from is somebody who's at least overcome it. A better example of leadership there will be somebody who never got into it in the first place, so that's kind of the ideal. Look, I'm very grateful.
Speaker 2:
Well, I don't know about that. I think it depends. I think there's power in someone who has gone through it. I think both Both can be powerful has gone through it.
Speaker 1:
I think both, both can be powerful. Well, both have their merits. I'm not disputing that. I'm just saying that, all things considered, if you could avoid the alcohol addiction in the first place, that's better. I mean, look, my point is simply this God has used we know factually, god has used people who've gotten divorced, right, whether it was Joel Osteen's father, who founded an amazing church, you know, charles Stanley, who did great work, joyce Myers, who we loved. So if you're going to take the position that people who got divorced shouldn't be in leadership, okay, well, you just destroyed three of the greatest ministries in the history of the United States, right, and we know that God used and continues to use those families. So that can't be it.
Speaker 1:
There has to be, though, I think, a distinction between the divorce happened to you versus did you just want the divorce or that? And that's number one, and then number two even in the event where there was an elective divorce, I think that person can still be used if there's been repentance. And then you know building back up, and you know how do you evaluate that. Well, on a case-by-case basis. But if somebody's been married now for 20 straight years and they got out of a marriage, you know, 25 years ago or something, and they realize, look, I messed up, I made mistakes back then and here's why this was wrong. That's someone who can be used, but somebody who, just like you said, just takes the spirit of permissiveness that you see in leadership.
Speaker 1:
And what is the ultimate example of leadership? Kristen is leadership by example. It's not just reading from the Bible, it's leading by example. So you want the people in churches, just like you'd want in government, to exemplify the highest moral behavior, hold themselves to the highest standards, so that other people can model themselves after that. And if you go to a church and the people in leadership are behaving the same way as the people who are coming to church to escape from sin, then you've got a real problem there. So that's the only distinction I'm making. All right, sweetie, do you want?
Speaker 2:
to add any last words. Well, I guess another discussion would be how long is that period of time? How long do you have to step away from?
Speaker 1:
the church. But again, you don't want to have like, you don't want to create like a code book here and say, well, it has to be this many days, weeks, months and years.
Speaker 2:
But unfortunately, in a lot of churches you have to have like a precedent. That's what our friend was talking about. That's what's sticky about it. You say I'm going to let this slide. Then you got to let. Then that's what was rough.
Speaker 1:
Everybody's heart is different. Everybody heals at different speeds, but the distinction is what is the attitude? And in the example that you're talking about, the person that our friend was talking about was going through a purely elective divorce where she just thought, well, I just need to find my happiness or whatever, okay, and she wanted to remain in leadership. And my position is that is the exact opposite of leadership. That's somebody who requires leadership, which is what our friend was trying to demonstrate. Them All right, so you did a great job, by the way, and you look super hot and I love you so much. Why don't you just close that in prayer?
Speaker 2:
Thank you, lord, for this day. Thank you for who you are, god, we honor you, we praise you, we give you the glory, lord, and we pray that each person would know how much you love them and how much, lord, no matter where we've been or what we've done. God, the message of the gospel is that you love us and you call us in and you create all things new. In Jesus' name, amen.
Speaker 1:
Amen, All right guys. Thanks for joining us. Thanks for putting up with me for a little bit. It was nice seeing you. We'll see you next time, as always. In the meantime, be blessed and be a blessing.
