How to Network and Stand Out as an Aspiring Developer

Struggling to find your place in the oversaturated software development job market? You're not alone. I brought on Nevin, an aspiring front-end developer, who shares his journey of navigating the tricky paths of job hunting. I'm hoping the advice I shared with him can help you as well.

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Transcript

Don Hansen: 0:13

Hey Nevin, Thanks for coming on. What can I help you with?

Nevin Klein: 0:16

So I'd like to thank you, don, for having me on the show today. Just as a quick background, I've been working with front-end development using React for a full year, self-taught. In March earlier this year, I began applying for jobs, but after 300 submissions using cover letters, I haven't received any responses or interviews. I sought advice and the people I spoke with explained that networking is key. So I made a LinkedIn profile and I've been trying to stay active since. I've connected with hiring managers and other developers to learn more, but so far I feel like it hasn't helped. So my question today is what can I do to network effectively to help me find my first job?

Don Hansen: 0:55

What are you doing to network right now?

Nevin Klein: 0:58

So right now I'm not posting as much as I should about my own projects, but I am trying to stay active with other developers. What I have done was I'd find developers working on similar projects for an in full stack and see their posts, comment on it, find things that I like about it, and later on I would message them just to try and start some conversation. What's it been like for you as a developer? What have you been working toward? And I do that just to sort of try and build friendships in the community, because the advice that I received was that you don't want to be just trying to talk to people to try and get connections in the jobs. You want to make friends in the industry. So that's what I've been trying to do.

Don Hansen: 1:44

Okay, are you doing this because you genuinely want to build up those friendships, or is it more of a strategy?

Nevin Klein: 1:53

I genuinely do. It's both. Part of it is I know that I need connections to find a job. The job market is difficult right now. I've heard it's oversaturated, so it seems necessary. But I don't know many developers and I'd like to change that. I do have a handful of friends from developers I've made and they've been great to talk to and I still talk to them each day. We help each other learn and, no, I genuinely appreciate that having that Okay.

Don Hansen: 2:24

Do you go to any meetups or local events?

Nevin Klein: 2:28

So that's the thing. I'm not able to attend any local meetups or find local jobs because I live in suburban Florida. So what I try to do is I try to join online meetups through meetupcom. I did find a group recently that I try to join, like every Monday night, and I've met developers that way, but I've made friends that way too.

Don Hansen: 2:53

Have you participated in any online hackathons?

Nevin Klein: 2:57

I haven't.

Don Hansen: 2:58

Okay, I would look out for that. I host a hackathon once every three months. I don't think my hackathon is going to really build you a lot of connections that you're looking for, because it's a smaller hackathon. With that said, I would aim for a larger hackathon hosted that's a little bit more of an annual thing. It's a real, legitimate hackathon where they're trying to connect aspiring developers or just developers in general with companies. A lot of times it's building real solutions out Sometimes. That's why companies will participate.

Don Hansen: 3:37

Look for hackathons where there are partners, where they're partnered with companies, and recruiters will stop by or just look at. I mean, if it's online, they're going to be looking at some of the final projects and try to find specific developers and reach out to them. That's one method. Yeah, it's a little tricky. It's really beneficial to be able to meet people in person and establish those connections. I'm glad that you are engaging on LinkedIn. Keep in mind that engagement can take a little while to build up. I'll continue sharing advice on networking, but I want to really establish this.

Don Hansen: 4:24

We don't have enough time, but most people that are struggling to find a job, their resume doesn't really represent the skills that a lot of companies are looking for or it doesn't represent the software engineer in the best light or even as a software engineer. Sometimes people will cover their old industry and go too far into that on the resume. It really depends on the type of projects you build, how your resume looks, what type of companies you're applying to and do they align with the projects that you've built. That's a huge one. Most people they don't align. They just apply to again 300 companies, but their projects and sometimes even their values often their values don't even align with the company. If you're going to continue to do the cold job search, definitely try to find the companies that really you would love to work at. You're probably applying to a lot of not necessarily remote positions, but positions around the US. As far as networking, it's a little tricky online. Do you live next to a big city where you can drive within an hour?

Nevin Klein: 5:32

The closest city is two hours away and I don't trust my car on the highway. Could I say something real quick? Yeah, go for it. I realized that mass applying to jobs is not the way to go. I've been trying to be a lot more personal. I've been changing my resume to fit each job posting that I find. I try to apply directly on the company's site and I put more effort into researching. I'm applying for less jobs each week, but I'm trying to tailor it better, but I haven't noticed any results from that yet. What's your most?

Don Hansen: 6:02

impressive project.

Nevin Klein: 6:05

I watched another podcast from you I believe you're talking to someone called Scott on how do I find a developer job that I'm actually a good fit at. You asked the same question and I realized I don't have an answer to that because the projects that I've built were for the intention of learning. I don't have a project that I actually resonate with or want to use on a regular basis. I've been trying to. I've been exploring more about backend concepts and how to actually apply that to my own projects, and now I'm building a project that I want to actually use each day, but I'm not sure when that will be complete.

Don Hansen: 6:43

You don't have to be the user either. You can be more open to another project where you just want to solve other users' problems. But yeah, I think that's going to be a big thing. That's probably holding you back as well. But networking, I mean it's going to be a little bit tricky.

Don Hansen: 7:01

What you can do, I mean you have a local area, you have local businesses, you can. These are just some things to stand out. You can just go to local businesses and offer to revamp their website for very cheap. I think that can go a long way. And try to understand the business needs and being able to even just like being able to build a landing page it doesn't really showcase your skills as much and hopefully you can get a little bit more of a complicated project than just a landing page. But talking to that business and offering a discount because I want to be able to measure, like your increase in client conversion or signups or whatever, like being able to get that statistic and putting it on your resume for helping a local business that can go a long way.

Don Hansen: 7:46

You could, even if you are, you love this open source tool, this developer tool that you use every single day or every single week you contribute to open source and like give back in that capacity. But I think it. I think where that can look good on your resume is like you really like the tool, because I think the open source you contribute to says a lot about you as a developer and it says a lot about like what you care about, what you want to build up, what you want to give back to. That's also another way that you can stand out and I mean you can make connections. Like there are people that have gotten full time positions after they've revamped a company's website. The company was kind of just looking to see if, like just a quick revamp, sometimes companies, especially if they're a little bit larger if they like what you do, it's kind of just a low risk for them they might hire you on at least like part time contract. That can look really good for you. And in terms of like the open source software, that being able to contribute to something a tool, software that you love using, that you want to see built up, that says a story about you when you're applying for positions. Right, it does show what you care about and especially what you choose to contribute to, like the different issues that can also say something about you as a developer.

Don Hansen: 9:11

I would consider open source software that you might want to build up that can help you stand out, because I think right now, I mean locally, you're limited and I think that's how you really build connections. So you might consider the things that we talked about. But I get this feeling that I mean just continue working with the LinkedIn, continue building up your connections, creating content, being transparent, share what you're doing. That can help and that can build up kind of your self branding as a developer over time. But yeah, I have a feeling like you figuring out that one personal project that you really want to dive into that isn't just meant for learning. That speaks to like the kind of problems you want to solve. I think that's going to go a long way.

Nevin Klein: 10:03

I could definitely ask. There's actually a handful of companies around here that have outdated sites, that have checked. I could walk in and probably ask. I do imagine it would have a really low chance of working. I did try this. I worked at a restaurant a year ago and I tried the same thing because they had a very old, looking outdated site, though the owner didn't want that, because I remember he remarked that it was just a restaurant and it wasn't a big deal. But I'm not sure how common that kind of response would be. I can find out though.

Don Hansen: 10:34

It definitely yeah. How did you sell it to them?

Nevin Klein: 10:40

I tried to pointing out. There were things that the restaurant did. They had music playing every week, they'd have a band come in, they'd have performances, they'd have these dances and stuff like that. They had a lot of features that the site just didn't talk about. The site simply showed like an outdated version of the menu. So I did two things. I pointed out issues like the outdated menu and I said, hey, you have these features. We could advertise them on this new version of the site if I created it for you. But it wasn't enough to really sell the point forward.

Don Hansen: 11:11

So I like that you were already thinking of solutions for them.

Don Hansen: 11:14

Ultimately, a lot of business owners, especially small business owners, don't want a new website. They want something that's going to better their business, and so I think focusing on the features that you can build that represent the current state of the restaurant is a good idea. But also I would add in like get some data around how conversions, how eyes, how visitors, how new potential customers, or how much new potential customers this business could have come into the restaurant if their website was SEO friendly, if their website did post relevant events, Maybe even just getting more of a social presence on Facebook, Maybe even have some integration in the website to be able to put it on the website. But I think it's more about selling the idea of how quantitatively this business could improve if we got this new website up for you, if we improved your online presence. That goes a long way, and when you sell it like that, you'll get more yeses. But also it sounds like you kind of just tried this once and then didn't try it again.

Nevin Klein: 12:30

I should have and I could. I'm still good today, okay, so focusing on the numerical aspects is a big deal. I know you're supposed to do that with resumes too, like I increased something by this amount doing this thing for your projects, and I could take that when talking about revamping a company's site.

Don Hansen: 12:51

I think yeah, I think yes, and it's not always an improvement. But like, especially even if you build a personal project, it's just something minor. But if you build a personal project and you gain a user base and like, it depends on, like, what problem you're trying to solve. But it doesn't have to be like I improved this based on a revamp. It could also be like I solved this specific problem for this individual or this type of user in this way and you might be able to provide some quantitative data for that as well. But even just like providing like hey, you know, I have like 100 people using the 100 active users using my website right now continue to get in features, and that creates a really interesting conversation in the interview as well. But yeah, I think taking that idea from the resume, putting it into trying to hook up with local businesses, will go a long way.

Nevin Klein: 13:43

And with open source. There are a couple projects that are open source that I actually really like, but I haven't contributed to them and I'm not sure why. I think I was intimidated by the fact that the code bases for them were so different from what I was used to working with. But that doesn't mean I shouldn't learn it. I should and I would like to contribute to those so I can start working on that as well. Different how With the. In regards to what is it? One of them doesn't use react. It uses angular that's not something that I've worked with before and another one or actually with both of them. They're both full stack and a lot of the issues that I saw have to do with the backend, so I would need to learn more backend concepts if I wanted to help contribute to that.

Don Hansen: 14:29

What kind of developer job are you aiming for?

Nevin Klein: 14:33

So originally I was seeking out front-end React developer positions, but I'm noticing that with many of the job postings, when I try to look for those that are available, a lot of companies are looking for full stack, not front-end. There are some front-end openings, but a lot of it is full stack. I wasn't sure how to actually get around this without going okay. I'm going to learn back-end concepts and start creating projects that use back-end servers, databases, and put that on my resume.

Don Hansen: 15:04

Gotcha. Yeah, if you're applying to full stack, a lot of times I don't know. Even when I do my live streams and go through a bunch of job postings, there are a ton of front-end focus positions. I was looking across the United States. I'm not sure where you're looking, but there are. I do see more full stack positions available, relatively speaking, and the back-end language that's required.

Don Hansen: 15:41

So a lot of companies are hiring for the stack that people are comfortable with already. A lot of companies don't really have the resources to ramp people up. They don't want to spend money. Companies are really tight right now given the current state of things. So it really helps to have experience with a stack that they're hiring for. But you can't really learn every stack and different companies are going to require different stacks. So I would really be careful about expanding into different stacks Because if you expand, I would double down on that stack.

Don Hansen: 16:12

Like, at this point, you're still a new developer, you still only did some learning projects, you haven't really even built your capstone project, your really impressive project. So I would really consider what stack you want to double down on. And if you do have open source software that does require another framework. Angular is a little bit heavier. It's a bit of a learning curve. I'm not sure that time investment is even worth it. I would consider an open source project where it does use React, or double down on Angular and just try to aim for positions with Angular. I think it's going to make you a little less marketable. I'm not saying it's the position that you should take, but be careful about expanding to multiple stacks.

Nevin Klein: 16:57

All right, I'll stick with React and try to focus on that. And for the stack, I haven't looked at anything besides Express and MongoDB. I could look at something like Postgres, but I think that's mainly what I'm going to be working with. For the back end, I haven't seen a reason to go out beyond that, because a lot of full stack positions ask for Express and MongoDB.

Don Hansen: 17:20

Okay, if that's what you're finding, then double down on that.

Nevin Klein: 17:25

Okay.

Don Hansen: 17:27

Cool, what else?

Nevin Klein: 17:30

I did have a question for you. Would you say Just one moment? Yeah, I visited your LinkedIn profile earlier and I saw that Was your first position a UI engineer in Chicago.

Don Hansen: 17:45

Basically a front end developer.

Nevin Klein: 17:47

Okay, what would you say helped you the most with getting that position, something that you did?

Don Hansen: 17:53

Yeah, keep in mind that was a long time ago. It was easier to get a job, but what really made me stand out is live streaming on Twitch and I kind of just I basically wanted to help other people, like whatever I learned I would try to teach others and I'd also be transparent with how I thought through things, and so with my cover letters I would actually mention my Twitch URL in the hours that I would stream and companies were welcome to just check it out, and that company did. He watched it and I actually was able to skip the technical interview because they already saw my process, which is awesome, yeah, and we just talked about React and games. My manager was also a Twitch user and loved gaming. We literally play games every week and I found through that the interview process and just even finding the right company, the right fit, talking with the right software engineers.

Don Hansen: 18:50

It's a lot of just talking with people, building connections and being able to have that casual conversation where he or she wants to sit next to you seven to eight hours a day and can stand you. That's a big thing, right, and so you just being able to build those connections like that, or even just in the interview process. Being able to establish kind of just that casual relationship initially can go a long way but.

Don Hansen: 19:18

I really think, because I didn't. I applied for about six weeks after that. I did have a lot of projects, but I think I had like a project I was really interested in and it was my capstone. It was like a Twitch analytics app and I think that helped me stand out, because a lot of in a lot of interviews they asked about that project and so having a project I cared about and I continued to double down on was very helpful as well.

Nevin Klein: 19:45

Okay, and it sounded like you and the manager would have made really great friends just from that interview you had.

Don Hansen: 19:52

Yeah, yeah, like I said, me and this manager, we still play games once a week. We have it on our schedule.

Nevin Klein: 19:59

Yeah. So in that case, because I'm realizing now a lot of it does have to do with my resume and projects. I'm still new, but I need to really double down on what I build and try to stand out. Do you think it's still worth applying to jobs every week, or should I just be focusing on my projects for now?

Don Hansen: 20:14

I would apply every week. You never know what you're going to get, but you can keep it lighter, right? How many jobs are you applying to each week?

Nevin Klein: 20:21

So when I realized that mass applying was an issue I started this two weeks ago I was like, okay, I'll just apply to 15 jobs a week.

Don Hansen: 20:29

Okay, yeah, if you are you trying to get a job full time like, are you doing this eight hours a day?

Nevin Klein: 20:40

I'm aiming for full time, but I don't mind part time. I know that experience goes a long way.

Don Hansen: 20:45

I probably could have asked that better. How much time are you spending each week coding and looking for developer jobs?

Nevin Klein: 20:56

Looking for jobs. I don't do it by time, I do it by objectives. So with jobs, I would say, if I'm maybe three or four hours a week coding and spending looking for jobs. No, not coding included. So coding included is, like I would estimate, around 20 hours a week if I'm, I code for three to four hours every day. Do you have a part time job? Yes, I had to pick one up recently.

Don Hansen: 21:30

Okay, well, good, I'm glad you did. Okay, gotcha. So about like 20 hours per week you can dedicate towards growing yourself as a developer and trying to find a job.

Nevin Klein: 21:42

Yes, roughly.

Don Hansen: 21:43

Okay, 15 is too much. You're applying for way too many jobs. Cut that in half.

Nevin Klein: 21:47

All right, I can do that, so should I round it on the seven or eight, either. Pick one that's your choice.

Don Hansen: 21:56

But yeah, usually, if you're like really going at it full time, like you are treating finding a job, growing as a developer as a full time job, I would suggest going no more than 15 a week. 15 a week is a lot, it is yes.

Nevin Klein: 22:10

I try to put effort into every application so it takes a long time. So I'll cut it in half and try to use that extra time towards just actually building things.

Don Hansen: 22:19

Yes, that's what you should be doing, right. Think about your capstone project, what you want to build and, like you know, continuing to practice data structures and algorithm problems on the side. Just a little bit, though it should be. Majority of your time should be spent towards project work at this point.

Nevin Klein: 22:36

So with hackathons? I don't actually know anything about them. Are they like coding challenges you have to do within a timeframe.

Don Hansen: 22:43

Basically, you just group up with people, people you don't even know, people you get to meet and you just try to build a project within a day, within a week, within a month, and I would look for like group hackathons specifically. I think that can be. Did you go to a coding bootcamp or did you? Or actually, let me ask you this were you able to do any group projects with other developers?

Nevin Klein: 23:04

I've been volunteer. I can't speak much about it, but I've been volunteering with the company for three months now and I work on that every week. But outside of that, no.

Don Hansen: 23:15

Gotcha. Then with hackathons, I would definitely find a much larger hackathon where recruiters and companies are going to take a look at the participants, and it could be a solo or a group, but yeah, it's basically you don't necessarily have to group, like if you are volunteering for a company and you're working with other developers and you're you are working with source control and you are you know, you kind of have like you're getting experience with the agile process, you're getting experience with the scrum process. That's all great things that you could kind of get involved with with hackathon. So those things don't matter as much with hackathon, it's more about exposure and you just building projects like companies and recruiters are going to look at.

Nevin Klein: 24:04

It could be a good way to build friends too. That does sound fun. I used to do a game jams. I'm still learning like game development on the side of it, and I used to do that a lot more about two years ago. Was that fun for you? It was. It was very stressful, but it was fun yeah.

Don Hansen: 24:21

Okay, I think they're fun and I think being able to build stuff that you want to build is fun. But just being with a group of people that kind of just like are trying to grow in the same direction, just like build the same stuff and like you just vibe with that, is a lot of fun. When you find that group, that's awesome. Yeah, yeah, okay, wow, okay. Time flew by Any final question.

Nevin Klein: 24:53

The questions I have would take like five minutes to talk through, so maybe another time.

Don Hansen: 24:57

All right, fair enough. Well, anyways, hopefully that was helpful for you, nevin. But yeah, seriously, thank you so much for coming on.

Nevin Klein: 25:05

Thank you so much, jay. I'll work on all the fancy. Awesome, love it.