The Reality of Trying To Land a Dev Job as a Woman

If you're a woman who's trying to become a developer and you've been told that it's going to be harder for you BECAUSE you're a woman, this episode is for you.

Zynkah (guest):
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Transcript

Don Hansen: 0:13

Welcome back to another web dev podcast episode where we help aspiring developers get jobs and junior developers grow. In this episode, we are diving into the topic of women becoming software engineers. We've had several women in my community kind of just asking and fearful and just wanting to know you know, like, how difficult is it for a woman to become a software engineer? What's it like in tech? And so I'm bringing on Zinka, who has been a mod in our community for a long time. We do live stream. She's always there, people love her. She's really inspirational to a lot of the women in my community and she actually live streams on Twitch. Check her out. It's just twitchtv slash Zinka and you can see her name in the bottom left.

Don Hansen: 0:57

But yeah, I'm just going to dive into the topic of you know, tips, advice, perspective on women becoming a software engineer. So we're going to have a pretty candid conversation. It's a pretty controversial topic, but Zinka doesn't shy away from controversial topics. In fact I remember talking to her. In fact I remember talking to her because sometimes we get comments in the live streams like, hey, you know, like, how difficult is it for a woman to become a software engineer? I heard that you know it's a male dominated. A lot of the industry doesn't let women in. There's a bit of a gatekeeper thing and I remember you rolling your eyes at that. So let's start off with that.

Zena Creps: 1:40

What do you think about that? I don't think anyone's keeping women out of tech. I think this is just like a misconception, because more men go for tech jobs, so it seems like only men are doing tech jobs. But I've never just had anyone tell me like we're not going to hire you because you're a woman, or like lose a position because I'm a woman, or be treated differently because I'm a woman. I don't. I just don't think there is someone saying like no, she's a woman, don't hire her. I don't think that's happening.

Don Hansen: 2:12

Yeah, and there's. There's a feeling that's really common among women, with that Like it's really common. Why do you think it's so common?

Zena Creps: 2:23

I think it's just because they're told that and they don't know any better. And when you hear something, enough you believe it's true, especially if you have no experience. You know on your own, like behalf, your own anecdotal experience, where it's like, if you've never worked in tech, if you've never, you know, actually had a development role yet, like you would be like oh, that's what everyone says, it must be true, but I don't know, it's just a big lie.

Don Hansen: 2:51

So I've I've reviewed and looked into some women's only coding boot camps and I think I've gotten much. I've realized how common this can become with women that graduate even these types of programs or that listen to advice from these types of programs. And I remember I remember having a conversation with this woman who was just really frustrated. She was trying to become a software engineer. I think she had spent maybe a little less than a year in my opinion not too long trying to become a developer who basically like really like emphasize this in the cohort like you're just going to have a harder time, like generally, like men are not going to kind of see you as an equal, they're not going to be as opening or open and accepting to you coming into their industry. And it was a lot of very interesting wording that quite frankly reflected more on their perspectives of men than how they were going to be treated by men. And that kind of opened my eyes to different advice for women in tech trying to get into tech and where their imposter syndrome potentially stems from. But I remember I was talking to her and you know I was trying to be empathetic. She had these legitimate concerns and she's like you know what. I've tried everything. I'm going to probably have to change my name because it doesn't even sound American. I'm applying for American companies and, um, and I gotta like do something to hide my gender on my resume and my LinkedIn and I think maybe I'm just going to delete my picture and like, okay, that's, that's a lot, a lot of steps for an actions that you feel like you have to take because you know something of your gender that. So let's, before we jump into that, let's go to the root of what makes you stand out as a software engineer.

Don Hansen: 5:00

And I looked at her resume, I looked at her portfolio and like I'm not trying to be disrespectful, it was. The resume was terrible. It spoke nothing to about her being a software engineer. A lot of her old positions weren't even tech focused, no leadership focused. And I looked at her portfolio very, very, very basic, crud apps, terrible accessibility, and she was trying to apply for every dev position possible. None of it spoke to any specific type of position that made her stand out and she was willing to go to so many lengths to hide her gender. Thinking it was that.

Don Hansen: 5:40

I can't imagine the amount of like stress and anxiety. You just an imposter syndrome. You just push and feed in, enable in yourself to think, okay, well, and I can understand that it's frustrating if you have this perspective. But so many women that have a feeling that they're just not getting in because of this perspective, because they're a woman like I, can narrow it down to.

Don Hansen: 6:05

I can provide a list of like 12 to 24 bullet points for them about, like, quite frankly, how low their skill level is, how badly they're presenting themselves. How are they engaging with other developers? How are they networking? What does networking even mean? And I learned that they're not taking. How are they engaging with other developers? How are they networking? What does networking even mean? And I learned that they're not taking certain actions to build their connections. They're not doing the right things, they're not building the right projects. But it's so overwhelming to see so many women just like not focus that energy into the right things. I think that's the frustrating thing. There's so many things you can do and you have all this energy just enabling all this anxiety over something that is an extreme minority in the industry and that, to me, kind of woke me up about people and just kind of women being a little bit more scared to enter this industry.

Zena Creps: 7:03

A pause there. What do you think about that? She's definitely had like. I'm guessing the person who told her all those things was probably another woman. They made her focus so much on the wrong things that she was probably spending too much time and energy, as you said, worrying about her name my name's foreign, that's never been a problem Worrying about her gender, worrying about all these things instead of focusing on her passions and presenting herself.

Zena Creps: 7:28

I mean, that's one thing I was told in both my internship and when I got my first job was that they liked the way I one showed the passion in what I was doing, because both of those projects were something that was very important to me. You know, the maid cafe was something that you know I love anime, I love cutesy stuff, so it just spoke to me. And the internship was for a bakery site. So they were like this is pretty much perfect, you know. And then also like Final Fantasy and you know, learning next and trying to like that's what made me shine for that position. To like how I put nine months into a side project, doing every day, you know, live streaming, making a fool of myself because I just learned it. You know, like, like they. That's what they said. They're like your presence, your drive, your passion, that's what made you stand out.

Zena Creps: 8:12

And if she focused more on that, she probably would have had more success than worrying about like, oh, I have a foreign name, I'm a woman Cause. I never thought about that, that never is like even a thought on my mind. And like, I've heard the exact opposite in the industry from men. Men have told me like senior devs that were, you know, around me would tell me you're going to get special treatment because you're a girl. You're going to shine more because you're a girl, like you're. You are an abnormal abnormality. You know what I mean. Like they're not used to seeing that. Like, who is this? You know?

Zena Creps: 8:43

So I feel like the person who was telling her that maybe she has some bad experiences and was projecting that upon everyone and instead of like listening to other people. You know, like, like I said, you remember the one bad thing instead of the 10, I think she was just focusing on the one bad thing. So, like, just focus on your portfolio, like you said. You know we all have crappy portfolios, especially a year in. You know, like mine still sucks two years in on your work. Focus on learning and focus on you know, showing the passion and the drive because people will hire you, even if you don't have the skill set, if you have the right attitude like that's way more important the willing to learn and being a team player, having a good personality, being able to work with other people and not rubbing them the wrong way Like that's way more important. So, if you're a woman looking to go into tech, focus on that. Don't. Don't worry about changing your name or hiding your photo. That's a huge waste of time.

Don Hansen: 9:46

Yeah, yeah it is. It's a huge waste of time, it's a waste of energy. You only have so much mental energy to dedicate to becoming a software engineer, which is already a really overwhelming thing to do long term to keep up that steam. It sucks to see so many women burning out because of that. But, like you said, like a lot of people latch on to a single bad experience and it will override you know nine other great experiences they've had and they'll kind of like perceive, like okay, well, is this same bad thing happening? Am I being discriminated against Because I because you know some other woman said I would be like has that kind of been injected into my personality, into my perspective? Like it just it snowballs into just a blocking, into a blocking perspective where you don't get to follow your passion, like if you're stressed about this other stuff, you don't get to dig into coding, be curious, have fun with it, build something that like reflects your hobbies or problems you want to solve. Like how the hell are you supposed to have fun with this thing when you have this other boogeyman towering over you that someone else projected into you? Like that's like you said, it's about attitude.

Don Hansen: 10:57

Like a lot of Tony, a lot of guys like we just want to bring in good, humble software engineers. We just want to work with developers that we can stand to work with. You know, for the whole day that's the reality. And like, are you going to be kind of constructive in the code reviews? Are you going to be a dick? Are you going to take every single feedback that we say really personally, or are you going to be humble about it and just realize, hey, you know, everyone's just helping each other grow here in older environments and just developers have been doing this for a long time to kind of have created a bit of a boys club. I'm not going to pretend like there aren't those types of teams, but generally they don't usually bring on high quality software engineers that are great to work with.

Don Hansen: 11:55

I tend to think that, like most teams just kind of want a diversity of opinion and different people and I think a lot of guy developers, like you said, like a new woman coming onto the team we haven't had a woman because they're not signing up for tech and I think part of that is, you know, maybe we get a show kind of an opportunity of tech for a little bit more women earlier on. But you know, like, I think a lot of guys just want, uh, whoever wants to be a good software engineer is humble we want to work with come to tech. That's it, and and I think that would enable a lot of women to to realize that but, yeah, a lot of guys they enjoy, um, just having good software engineers that are friendly to work with. That's it. It's that simple.

Don Hansen: 12:40

And you know the the final fantasy thing and your love for anime. Um, I like that. You, you unapologetically push that and drive into that in all of your live streams and like everything about you because you show, like, what you're actually passionate about. Um, and I feel like just more developers in general need to do that. But, like, I feel like you just are transparent with who you are. How are you so comfortable doing that without being judged?

Zena Creps: 13:17

um, I guess it's from all the years of being judged, you know, since I am a millennial, when I was younger, like anime and video games were not cool, not like how they are now, and I was picked on and I didn't care. I was like this is what I like, and if you don't like it, then I don't care. You know, I'm like I don't know. It's just been a big part of who I am and I'm not, I'm not shy about it. You know, it's a part of my identity, it is part of who I am and I don't know, now it's cool, now it's accepted, people love it, so it's perfect. You know, like you, you bring up those two things and automatically you're gonna have a group of people who, like you, you know, so I don't know, like that's just that's how I do it.

Zena Creps: 14:02

I don't know I'm, I'm just a naturally outgoing person too. I've never been shy. I grew up with an army dad, so, like I'm used to people being tough on me. You know, went to dod schools where every teacher is a retired first sergeant, you know like, so I don't know, just it's, I have a lot thicker skin and, like I, I'm proud of who I am. I'm. You know I'm flawed, but I like who I am and I have no problem showing that and being that and obviously people like it. You know. They always say I'm genuine. So I guess that's a good thing. You know, it makes me like I said, it makes me stand out and people should do that more. Like, don't be shy of who you are. You know, don't worry about like is this socially acceptable? Is this cool? Just be yourself and people will respect you for that, you know.

Don Hansen: 14:52

They do. People do respect you even if they disagree with you. If you say it unapologetically and you believe it, they do respect you for it and I think ultimately, a lot of people just want respect. At the end of the day, I like it.

Zena Creps: 15:05

Yeah.

Don Hansen: 15:08

So I made a community post asking like, hey, as a woman trying to become a developer, what are your worries? So I got a few comments. I'm going to go ahead and read them and I'd love for you to respond to them. Are you ready? I'm ready, All right, cool for equal positions, possibly due to negotiation skills. Or sometimes I wonder if hiring managers are old school thinking a woman will have a man to pay a mortgage for them. But it's not 1950. And I know I want to eventually earn enough to get myself a mortgage.

Zena Creps: 15:48

Well, like they said, negotiation is probably a huge thing. I know that in my first job I lowballed and he was like you're worth more than that and gave me more. So thankfully I got someone who was not shady, you know, and like the amount was like something way more than I expected. So I was like just took it, you know. So like I have no more experience other than that one position, that one situation. So I can't really say you know consistently, if it'll always be that way. Maybe I just got lucky once.

Zena Creps: 16:21

I know this is something you hear in a lot of different industries, you know. But, like I said, I don't know what my co-workers are making. I'm not going to ask them. I feel like that's rude and also our skill level is very different. That's a huge thing.

Zena Creps: 16:36

Like I came in out of first a bootcamp and then internship, you know, like I didn't have all this experience.

Zena Creps: 16:42

So the fact that I got what I got, I felt really grateful for. You know like, so maybe in my next role we'll see how things go. You know, like what I'll be offered. I just don't know any situation that where I'm going to be asking my male counterparts like how much are you making and like, try to, you know, compare our stack and our skill level and our years of experience and try to like there seems like, especially in tech, there's so many variables that would qualify your pay, you know, like where it's. Just like I can't just say, oh, I only got this pay because I'm a woman. No, thanks to my lack of experience, you know I'm sure had a huge play in how much I was getting paid, you know. So I mean I wish I had more to say on that, but like I've only had one job so I don't have much more input in that, but I feel like I got a fair shake, you know, so far.

Don Hansen: 17:33

I mean for only having one job. I think that's really good insight. You mentioned a couple of things.

Don Hansen: 17:41

One, there are people that believe that because you hold the same title, because you do the same things, you deserve the same pay. You don't do things as effectively or as fast or as responsibly, you don't document things as well, like there are so many other variables, but you don't necessarily do things as well as the other person just because you hold the same title. There is a skill gap, there is a um, there's also a history of like, how quickly is this person going to be able to ramp up based on their previous education? Um and like there are a lot of variables at play that are going to affect your salary. I, like a hundred percent disagree. I think it's BS when people are like I deserve to get paid the same as every other software engineer that has been here one year. No, you have different experience, you have different skill levels, you provide different value to versus other people on the team. Like, I think people have a huge. I think it's the wrong way to look at it.

Don Hansen: 18:36

But one thing that you did know negotiation women generally measure much higher with agreeableness than men do and that is like agreeableness tends to have a negative correlation with essentially how much you can stretch that salary in that negotiation, and that is a factor and I think a lot of women need to be a little bit more assertive and aggressive and understand their value, and I think that's the answer right. And, to be honest, like women aren't having it's not just women having this problem when you are just going into the industry, I was nervous about negotiating. I'm like they're going to just toss it. I'm not worth this much. There's no way. Like there's a lot of men that feel the same way, but generally men are a little bit less agreeable and so they will push a little bit more often and statistically they will probably negotiate higher. But I think that's just a message to women you got to fight for what you're worth a little bit more.

Zena Creps: 19:35

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I mean, this is like natural stuff. You know, like I said, when you look at it, women are more agreeable. I do believe that is true. You know, like you. Just you have to fight it. If that really is something that is super important to you, where it's like I want more pay, I feel like I'm worth more pay, then voice that opinion. Let them know they can't read your mind. And also, like not everyone's going to be nice. You know some people are like well, if I can get away with paying you 50K, I'll pay you 50K. You know, and you know, if you're worth more, stand up for yourself, you know, and if they say no, they say no, okay, well, maybe you got to look for another job. You know, like that's not, it's not the world's responsibility to stand up for you.

Don Hansen: 20:20

That's definitely your responsibility. You know yes, 100%. And a lot of times like them just pushing back and saying you know it's not in our budget is not a no either. Then you got to think about it like, okay, am I getting paid enough? Can I negotiate anything else besides salary? And there are a lot of other things you can negotiate. But yeah, okay, yeah, one job in. That was actually a really good insight for that question. All right. Next question I just clicked into the wrong one, okay, so some background about me. I attended a bootcamp in 2022, got a web developer position five months afterwards and this year recently started a software engineer role. For me, many of the struggles of trying to find a job were the same. As a man, one thing I can think of is that I was worried about not fitting into the boys club and, along with that, not being able to match their culture well, I mean, did she?

Zena Creps: 21:16

I don't know? Like that's the thing, like if you're afraid of not fitting in the culture, I mean maybe I don't know. Like that's the thing, like if you're afraid of not fitting in the culture, I mean, maybe I don't know. I always grew up with like a mixed group of friends. Like I didn't just hang out with the girls. You know, like I said, I guess a lot of it had to be with me being a gamer. You know, like I hung out with a lot of guys. I never felt like I didn't fit in with the guys. I never felt like, oh, this is only a guy's thing. Like, yeah, tech might be male dominant, but it's not a men's thing. You know, like it's for anyone, it's for everyone. And if you have the common interest of tech and programming and coding and all this stuff, like, then you're already in the club.

Zena Creps: 21:53

What are you talking about? Like I don't know, maybe, like, maybe I. Just I don't understand. Like what do you mean? You're not going to fit in? I know there's some, like you said. I know there's some men who are like that yes, some, but that's going to be a minority in my opinion. I mean, I have. Even, like I said, I see in the gaming community too, like some men are like women can't play video games, but like that's such a tiny tiny minority. And I've been playing video games like almost for 30 years and I've never had someone like be that dead serious, like large groups of it, where I felt like I didn't belong. I always felt like I belonged. So it's kind of like the same thing. You're like you already, you're already in the club. What do you just just make the best out of it. You know, if you, if you sit there and the whole time like as a woman, as a know, and you're probably gonna get along with everyone, just fine, you know yeah and I think that's where some of the frustration comes from.

Don Hansen: 22:46

It's when people hyper focus on things like gender instead of holding themselves accountable for other things. They're fucking up, right, and I think that's where people get frustrated. Um, but that's what happens with people that do hyper focus on these kind of things. They don't look inward, outside of something superficial like that, and they don't really they're not critical about like, maybe I'm just not, you know, maybe I'm not a fun person to be around, maybe I'm not.

Don Hansen: 23:15

I'm too nervous to talk to people, and it comes off weird, like, maybe those are just things you need to practice and it has nothing to do with you being a woman, right, and then, if you're willing to dig into that stuff, like you said, that's when you start realizing these situations that happen any sort of sexism, sexism in tech it's an extreme minority, and even men don't want to talk with other men that do that crap, right, because they're not generally like that's going to carry over into other traits and they're not great people to talk with, um, which is why I think, like teams like that uh, have mostly died off, which is a good thing, but, yeah, you could just psych yourself out and it just prevents you from growing and and focusing on all the good qualities about you.

Zena Creps: 23:55

It's it's frustrating to see, but okay it's kind of like that phrase you hear, like it's not. If it's everyone else, then maybe it's you kind of thing and you'll see that in many scenarios. You know, maybe you should self-reflect. If you're, if there's a massive group of people and no one likes you, maybe it's your personality, maybe it's how you're talking to people, maybe you know you're playing the victim card too much and people are getting annoyed by it. You know, like that's a lot of stuff that's going to push people away. You know, like I said, if you're genuine, you're happy, you're nice, you're genuinely pleasant to be around, most people are going to like you. You know like that's what people like. People like friendly, nice people. So just be, that.

Don Hansen: 24:42

Yeah, that's great advice. It's a hard pill to swallow, especially when we talk about victimhood, but it's the truth in a lot of situations. All right, so last serious comment I got. So I am a caucasian woman and have been a software developer since the late 90s. Uh, for me, I I feel it's mostly subconscious things. I am, I we're probably going to break this one up a bit. I'm a competitive person, but find myself less competitive around males. Like I really don't want to fight for this. It probably comes down to how ambitious you are. If you just want to work in tech, that is doable, because I think many companies want diversity. Okay, so I don't think that's part of the question. But what do you think about that? Uh, do you feel less competitive or do you think a lot of other women are less competitive with men and more competitive with women?

Zena Creps: 25:29

Absolutely, absolutely. And I think that comes down to our DNA, like you know. First, women are going to compete with other women and they're more agreeable with men, like that's. I mean, you can fight it, but that's just how it is. You know, for most women that's kind of our default mode. You know like, and that's okay. You know if that's how it is and you see that's how it is and you're aware of it, you know work on either fixing that or work on just accepting it One of the two.

Zena Creps: 26:01

You know I find like I'm most competitive with myself. Like I'm constantly telling myself like who I was yesterday, I'm trying to be better tomorrow, and like constantly like I don't really try to focus so much on what other people are doing more of like what I'm doing and how I can improve. So like that's where my competitiveness is usually happens. Um, I don't really find like other women in the industry as like threats or anything like that. You know it's like not a big deal for me. And I do find like I am more agreeable with men, but I'm more agreeable with everyone in general. I'm just an agreeable person in general, you know. So I don't really, I don't really think it matters the gender per se. But yeah, I could see how she's saying I would probably be more agreeable with men when I really really look at it. You know, maybe it has something to do with like the whole like I said old school thought of thinking of men being dominant and all that stuff. But I mean, if it's a problem and you're aware of it, work on it. It doesn't bother me. If it's a problem and you're aware of it, work on it. It doesn't bother me, you know, because it just it's not a, like I said, focus in my life. My focus is just making myself a better person every day and that's really all I want to worry about.

Zena Creps: 27:09

You know like I find a camaraderie with people, not like a competitiveness. You know like maybe it's because of my lack of experience and my position where I'm at right now with being a junior, where I see everyone as a mentor and like as a guide, maybe I'll feel different when I'm in a higher role, like a senior role. Maybe the competitiveness will kick in then because I'll feel like at that point I'm now in charge. So, since she's in that position she's been a dev since the 90s, I'm going to guess she's in that position. She's been a dev since the 90s, I'm going to guess she's in senior position, so her perspective is going to be vastly different than mine. She probably is competing with other senior devs, so I can see where she's coming from for sure.

Zena Creps: 28:01

I haven't experienced it myself, but I could definitely see that. You know, like being more competitive and less in, like you know, trying to exert your experience in the position but feeling like you have to step down because you might feel a little intimidated by a male, you know, coworker or something. I see where she's coming from, but I don't think that's has to be the way. You know, like if you, if you don't want that, like I keep saying just, just, don't do that, then I don't know, like I feel like a lot of people's problems are fixable, like I don't know how else to say it Like that's just, that's just my point of view. You know I, I don't have that problem yet. Talk to me in 20 years.

Don Hansen: 28:44

I think you are going to have that problem for a while and I think it's because of your personality. I've worked with women as developers who were very relaxed and, um, very respected in their positions, um, and they kind of like their leadership and their guidance was well respected, but there was a confidence about them that was just respectable yeah, just like another guy's confidence. It was respectable. There are men that I don't respect because they have no confidence and they're insecure and they lash out at people and, like you know, I think it's just about the confidence that you have and how you portray that. And you know, I'm thinking of one woman in particular where everyone on the team respected her opinion and looked up to her and she ended up leaving, actually, um, for a different, better position, if I remember correctly, at a different company, and you know good for her. But, um, I don't know what the variables were to cause her to leave, because I just had joined the company and she left. But you know, getting to know her, like, I learned a lot from her and, um, even when I would kind of push back on something like, why do you do it this way, isn't that kind of inefficient or kind of hard to maintain or something like that. And you know, there were times where it's like, yeah, you know you have a good point, but you have to remember this context and this code base.

Don Hansen: 30:11

And she didn't take it personally, it was just she just like literally listened to me and she heard what I had to say and with confidence she showed why it was a bad idea of what I was suggesting. And she did. She did it in very like she was very empathetic with how she talked to people, how she did her code reviews. Like she just did it in a way where she made everyone feel good and she was confident doing it. There was like no insecurity. And then I've worked with another woman who you know she didn't take code reviews well and she took things personally.

Don Hansen: 30:44

And I feel like there are some women just it might be a little bit easier to kind of just like lean on Again. It's like it's not me, it's not my confidence, it's not how I portray myself, it's my team, it's external circumstances, this is the reason, it's everyone else and, um, I man, it's like I guess my big question for you is how, how can other women build the confidence that you can, because your personality is going to do very well in tech. You're going to be very respected in tech. How can other women become this?

Zena Creps: 31:27

I think the number one issue I've just dealt with in general working with women in any industry is they're too emotional a lot of the times and they take things, like you said, too personal. You really need to remove yourself from the situation. Sometimes it's just a bad situation. It's not about you. And if you just like being humble is a huge part of it. Like no one wants a girl coming in there and being bossy and catty and annoying, no one likes that. You know, man or woman. So really, if you have this like boss babe mentality, I'm going to come in and tell everyone what to do. Drop that, not just drop that now. No one likes it. That will be your first step.

Zena Creps: 32:11

And like learn to be humble, learn to listen to people, learn to be understanding. You know like respect the person on the bottom as much as you respect the person on the top, kind of mentality. You know just like be there for everyone, don't, don't get emotional, don't get angry. You know like a lot of, a lot of issues I've had with female employees or managers. It was that type and, like I said, the ones that I very much respected, that everyone respected, were the ones who were cool, calm, collected, they would treat you with like proper respect. They would, you know, they just had a way they carried themselves.

Zena Creps: 32:48

And that's like where you really need to focus on. Stop focusing so much on asserting your dominance and like trying to imitate what you see as the toxic male dominant. Like mentalize, like well, if we can't beat them, then beat one. Like, no, don't do that. Work on your positive traits, what you bring to the table, and just like, be open to things. Don't, don't be so close minded and don't take things so personally, don't, you know? Don't be so invested emotionally and everything like and I feel like that's going to get you a lot further, and not just tech in any industry and in life and in relationships and in friendships and just everything you know, like the, the way you carry yourself, and just just look at things outside of your perspective for just a minute. You know it's not always about you.

Don Hansen: 33:47

Yeah, that's really, really good advice. I couldn't have said that better myself. Yeah, wow. And I think you're going to start seeing similar patterns, even like when trying to become a developer, getting into the tech industry. You're going to see that and your friendships, your relationships, a lot of it, a lot of that personality that carries over and built like the confidence that you have based on your previous life experiences, you're going to see a pattern.

Don Hansen: 34:11

So, if you go into this industry with and you find a lot of hurdles, a lot of troubles, and you're not able to connect with people, I don't think that originated from tech. I think that originated before tech and you probably should be more self-critical about that. But that's advice for, uh, men and women. But overall, yeah, listen, this is why people love your live streams. You're just very insightful and you're you're critical of yourself enough to like constantly be willing to grow and, um, you know it's, it's kind of uh, I guess. One final question I want to ask is like how the live streaming is going, because it's you kind of get a mix of emotions and you know, not every day is the best day and some days you get frustrated. Some people frustrate you, trolls that come in and everything, but you've been live streaming for a little bit. How's that going? What's the good and the bad from it?

Zena Creps: 35:07

The good is that you're going to get a lot of like ideas for your program that you wouldn't naturally come up on your own. You're going to get like a lot of inspiration to do things you wouldn't naturally do on your own, like like, why are you doing it? This way? You're going to get asked why a lot, which is going to make you think why a lot? Where, like when you're on your own, it's like this is what I do. You know I can just copy, repeat and you just get stuck in like this one path and one thought.

Zena Creps: 35:35

The downside is you will get sidetracked in another way too. You know, like you're just trying to work on your code and everyone's fighting over like what the margin should be, or if there should be a border or not, and it's like, guys, we've moved past that Like 20 minutes later. It's like guys, we've moved past that Like 20 minutes later. It's like so how many pixels are we going to make the border? We're over it. Okay, we're moving on. And like sometimes you sit there and you talk to chat for like 20 minutes and you haven't written a single line of code. So things like that happen. You have a trade-off where you're going to be a little sidetr, whereas, okay, this person is not a troll. They're actually obviously experienced, they know what they're talking about. They're here to actually give good insight and you'll start paying more attention to their chat, you know, and you'll start tuning out the other ones, you know, and you, just you got to use the block button sometimes. You know, like I give people a lot of chances. I don't block people very easily, but if it's like day three and it's to the point where, like, I don't even want to acknowledge your texts anymore, okay I'm going to block you. And I was like those are like the downsides, but I don't know. Overall I like it. Like I said, it's really helped me grow a lot. It's introduced me to a lot of concepts I wouldn't.

Zena Creps: 36:47

I wouldn't know on my own to like seek out, looking on my own I'm really bad at UI, so, like having people's inputs like what do you guys think? Like, should I do this? Should that do a little poll decisions made, move on. You know, like I feel like that I can make decisions based off the what the client wants and needs more, because you know when you're, when you're programming, you just think, oh, this makes sense to me. Then you just think, oh, this makes sense to me. But then I was like, of course that's clickable, isn't it obvious? But then the person's like, wait, what's going on here? And it's like, ok, now you're thinking more on how a person who's not writing the code would think and that's a huge on-the-spot feedback benefit of live streaming. It's just like people who are, even people who are not programmers Like I have a lot of people who are not programmers in the chat and they're just like asking questions like how does this work?

Zena Creps: 37:40

You know it. It makes me rethink how I'm making everything and I love it. I I'm really sad that I took such a large break when I did, but it's okay, better now than never, right? You know, things are going pretty well. Hopefully it stays that way. You know, the bigger the crowd, the more trolls, but I I can handle it just fine and never bother, be none. You know, like I grew up in halo 2, you know chat stuff and everything. I'm good, I'm gonna be fine you know, like there's nothing they can tell me that's gonna hurt my feelings.

Zena Creps: 38:11

Um, so I'm not, I'm going to be fine. You know, like there's nothing they can tell me that's going to hurt my feelings. So I'm not really too worried about trolls or anything. You know, the trolls are only as bad as you feed them, you know. So if you just don't feed them, they won't be a problem. And I'm really, like I said, all the feedback and the community that's growing and you know the code talk and being introduced to things that I guess I would never think of on my own, getting articles shared and, you know, like different solutions and ideas. So I'm really looking forward to sticking to this time and not abandoning it like last time.

Don Hansen: 38:42

Yeah, that's awesome and, you know, do it for as long as it serves you. If you're having a good time, you're enjoying it. Sometimes life circumstances come up. That's okay. If you've got to step away from it, that's okay. Um, but yeah, I'm really glad you're enjoying it. I actually just had one specific question. So sometimes you just block people, you don't ban them, so you just don't see their chat.

Zena Creps: 39:04

Um, block, ban, it just matters, I guess what I'm on. I think Twitch is just called a ban okay, same thing, you know. Or, like you know, if someone's annoying me, like on youtube or discord, just just block them, you know, block, ban, same thing. But, like I said, it's really rare. I think I've blocked or banned maybe four people ever. So it's not like I'm crazy about it, but like, yeah, if someone's, like know, asking like obviously inappropriate questions, you know, and it's just like okay, you just got to go. My mom's really good about it too, though, like he's always usually like removing things before I can even see it, so I don't have to worry about it too much.

Don Hansen: 39:45

Yeah, that's awesome. He's a good mom, all right, cool, was just curious about that. I think more people should consider live coding. See if it works for you. For some people it does, for some people it doesn't. Um, I think it's a cool way to get a little motivation, um and uh, just, you know, if you're not really feeling it sometimes, just working with other developers and being around other developers gives you that motivation. So, um, yeah, that's that's awesome. That's awesome, all right. Well, I feel like we uh covered everything I wanted to cover. This is a good conversation. Um, I really hope, um, I really hope more women actually uh, heed your advice and they take it seriously.

Don Hansen: 40:27

And like the enemy to a lot of uh people just trying to be successful, it's, it's victimhood, it's a perspective of mindset that constantly blocks you in life. It's when you're blaming external circumstances you got to realize it's easy to see people in certain positions and think they've had it easy, but you have no idea of the adversities they've overcome. You have no idea, right, until you actually get to know them. Their race won't tell you that, their gender won't tell you that. None of that will tell you that, but you know, you just kind of see the end result and you. It's easy to make assumptions, but it's. It really isn't just about being critical of yourself and understanding you have a lot more control over your future than some people give you credit for some people give you credit for.

Zena Creps: 41:14

I mean, it's so easy to fall for the trap because there's so many sources and so many different regions that are constantly telling you it's because this is because of that, it's because of this, and it's never going to be fair, blah, blah, blah. But just like I don't have any social media for a reason, I cut all the noise out. It's like get it out of my life. This is a time killer. This is like polluting my mind with negative thoughts that are unnecessary. And you know like people are like oh, you know they have the whole stereotype like white males will have it easier, blah, blah.

Zena Creps: 41:40

Okay, my, my brother, my little brother. He's a white male in tech right, highly highly up in his position. He earned it. Trust me as someone who has seen him in his entire life like he was in the military. He had no friends growing up. He was spending all day and night doing every side project you could ever imagine and more. Like he earned where he's at. Nothing was given to him.

Zena Creps: 42:00

I can't say this for everyone, but I know for him for a fact he earned it. You know, I'm just going to assume people who are in positions like that probably have the same like life as him, you know, like working every single minute of his life, from 17 to 30, you know what I mean. So, like, just focus on yourself, cause I can tell you right now he wasn't focusing on anyone else, he was focusing on himself, and that's how he got where he is, you know. So, just if the noise is drowning, you do what I did delete your social media, and so I just open up VS code and get hub and just focus on that. Just do that.

Don Hansen: 42:36

That's probably the best advice of this episode. That's awesome, all right, cool. Well, hey, zink, I really appreciate you coming on. Um, I want you to stick around for a couple of minutes. We'll just touch base, but, uh, before we head out, uh, shout out out your stuff. Where can people find you?

Zena Creps: 42:52

well, like I said, I'm don't have any like instas or anything, but you can find me on twitch, um at zinka right there, and that's pretty much where I am, monday through friday, 1 pm, central time. Uh, sometimes it kind of wiggles matters like on my schedule, but usually 1 pm and I have a little discord community which you can guys get and chat in there Um, small but it's growing. But yeah, other than that, that's kind of all I do. You'll find me in his chat too, like you know. So if you want to talk to me. Oh, and I have a LinkedIn too. I guess I have a LinkedIn. Um, you know, my name is I think it's going to be in the title right, like my real name.

Don Hansen: 43:31

Yeah, we could do something like that. I'll usually provide the links in the description.

Zena Creps: 43:35

Yeah, we'll just put it in the description. My real name will be in the description. I'm the only one who shows up. I'm easy to find Perfect. Yeah, that's where you can find me. Linkedin and Twitch.

Don Hansen: 43:45

All right Sounds good. Zinka, I really appreciate this and anyone watching. Um. Just leave a comment below what do you think I feel like when we get to diversity stuff, when we talk about I talk about victimhood a lot, I talk about a lot of controversial issues and I kind of combine them all and uh. But I think these are important conversations, um, and it's because I've helped thousands of aspiring developers of all walks of life and I'm just you know, I see what works and I see what doesn't. I know what perspectives hold people back, I know what perspectives don't. Um, but if you disagree, let me know in the comments. Um. But yeah, zinka, thanks so much for coming on yeah, definitely anytime.