Arthurian Legend and Graphic Novel Retellings with Isabel Greenberg - Young Hag and the Witches' Quest

Marissa chats with Isabel Greenberg about her new Arthurian fantasy graphic novel, YOUNG HAG AND THE WITCHES’ QUEST. Also discussed in this episode: the freedom of creating a first project without the expectation that it will be read, the challenges and allure of retellings and Arthurian legends, the process of creating and revising a graphic novel, how the reading experience of graphic novels is different than for prose, tips for maintaining the writing/life balance, having a pile of comfort reads, and more!

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Transcript

[00:09] Marissa: Hello and welcome to the Happy writer. This is a podcast that aims to bring readers more books to enjoy and to help authors find more joy in their writing. I am your host, Marissa Meyer. Thank you for joining me. One thing making me happy this week is that a dear friend of mine, Rory Shay, she was a guest on this podcast way back in episode 51, like 151, 50 episodes ago almost. She is hosting a Bridgerton season three watch party next week, and she is one of those people who probably was an event planner in a past life, like, she does these great themed shindigs. So I am predicting there's going to be victorian era food and drinks and we're all going to get dressed up and on top of that, it's going to be a grown up sleepover, which I've never had in my adult life. So I'm super excited. And then we're all going to get up the next day and go have a writing marathon. So if that doesn't sound like just the best 24 hours of all time, I don't know what does. I'm so, so looking forward to it. I am also so happy to be talking to today's guest. She's a London based illustrator and writer and the author of three acclaimed graphic novels, the Encyclopedia of Early Earth, the 100 knights of Hero and Glasstown. She's also the illustrator of a number of children's books and has been nominated for two Eisner awards. Her newest graphic novel, Young Hag and the Witch's quest, comes out tomorrow on May 14 and is already available in the UK. Please welcome Isabel Greenberg.

[01:50] Isabel : Hello.

[01:51] Marissa: Hello and welcome. Congratulations on this book. It's been out in London, England and the UK for a little while. How are things going?

[02:01] Isabel : Well, only three weeks, but yeah, I think so. It's kind of that sort of weird thing where you work on something for ages and then you send it off and then you have to wait a year and then suddenly you get sent a book and then there's a sort of like momentary flurry and then you kind of just have to wait and see what happens. Yeah.

[02:23] Marissa: So you're in the waiting period now.

[02:25] Isabel : Yeah. And it's like, you know, I'm in that period where like, I'm starting, you know, to. We had a little book launch in the UK, which was really nice. And I'm starting to see it, you know, around in bookshops, which is really exciting. Yeah. So, you know, it's kind of. It's sort of that early buzz moment. Yeah. Toronto tomorrow for tea calf. The Toronto Comic Art Festival, which will be exciting. So. Yeah, like, trying to, you know that bit where you're trying to be a person who talks about your work a lot, even though you're like, but I finished it ages ago.

[03:05] Marissa: What was the book even about? I've forgotten everything.

[03:08] Isabel : Yeah, exactly. I'm like, oh, I need to reread it.

[03:11] Marissa: Yeah, no, I know. I always. It is a weird thing when so much time passes between when we are finished versus when it actually comes out, and I don't. Are you, like, neck deep in a new project now?

[03:24] Isabel : I met the. I'm kind of at the very exciting bit where the idea is just kind of, I'm sort of working on my next pitch. And so it's that bit where it's almost like the best bit, because no one has given you any, like, you know, I haven't had to make any changes yet. It's just that really exciting, like, early bit where I'm like, you know, we're just dating. Me and the idea of dating.

[03:48] Marissa: Yeah.

[03:49] Isabel : And so that's really nice. And I guess my head is. Yeah, my head is full of a new idea, even though I have to kind of talk about this one, which I think is that is, I guess, pretty standard because of just the lead times on publication. But it does mean you have to. Your head has to be in two different places.

[04:05] Marissa: Yeah. No, and it's tricky. And it's, of course, we're excited about the book that's coming out, and we love the book that's coming out, but there's, like, that part of us that's like, but let me tell you about this other thing I'm working on. No, no, can't do that yet. Well, I really enjoyed this book, and I'm very excited to talk about it. But before we do, the first question I ask all my guests is, I'd love to hear your origin story. Did you always want to be in comics and graphic novels? What was your path to get here?

[04:39] Isabel : I think I always loved writing and making art stories, and I always loved drawing. And there was, like a, you know, when I was deciding what to study at university, I had a real kind of, I think I was really torn for a while. Like, would I study, like, english literature, or would I study art? And on my art foundation course in London, which is this kind of pre, it's like a post school, pre university year where you try out lots of different things. And I kind of had read a few comics. You know, I was sort of starting to get into comics a little. Bit, but I didn't really know until I started on my art foundation. I guess I hadn't really had much sort of entry to the indie comic scene, really. So I think I had a tutor on art foundation who was really into indie comics, and people were making them on the foundation course, and that was a really eye opening kind of experience because I was like, oh, okay, you know, I can write stories and draw at the same time. It doesn't have to be a choice. And so, yeah, I went on and did illustration for my undergrad, and, yeah, I've just been making comics ever since.

[05:50] Marissa: So did you, did you start with short form comics, or did you write and illustrate a full graphic novel? Did you get into webcomics at all?

[06:01] Isabel : Like, oh, yeah, at university, I guess, because it was like a more general illustration course rather than specifically comics. There was, like, lots of focus on kind of, I guess, more like what you would imagine, I guess, like commercial illustration. Like, it wasn't a commercial illustration course, but I think there weren't that many people on the course who were interested in comics when I was doing the course. And so the way I kind of shoehorned it into my project work was kind of, I used to keep these diary comics. We got sent, there was a project that you got set between second and third year where you had to do a drawing every day. And I did mine in the form of these little diary strip comics. And then a bunch of us used to get the, I studied in Brighton, and we used to get the train sort of up to London and get stalls at sort of small press events where you sell, like, zines and mini comics and stuff like that. And so that was kind of a, I guess that was my first foray into comics, was selling, like, mini comics. And they were kind of diary comics or just like, weird little stories, and they were really bad. Like, now they were really bad. But it was a great, you know, it was a sort of really great way to generate a lot of work. And I think that for me, I'm sure it's different for other people, but for me, I think I had to draw a lot of, I just had to do lots and lots and lots before I could improve. And then when I graduated, I wasn't totally sure what to do. And I think there was that sort of moment where everyone kind of scatters and you suddenly realize that it's actually not, you know, so simple to just become an illustrator. So I got a job as a nanny because the hours meant I could work, like, work in the morning, go pick some kids up from school, give them some dinner, then go back, you know, go back home, do some more work. And I entered a competition that we have in the UK with one of the big major newspapers. The observer ran this competition with a publisher called Jonathan Cape, where you would enter a four page comic, and the winner got printed in the observer. And I think it was two years after I graduated, I won that competition. And for me, that was kind of the, the changing moment for me, I think. So at that point, I got approached by, it was a really lucky timing thing, I think, because, I don't know, I think it's probably different in the States, I think because you guys have the public library system and it's just generally a bigger market. But in the UK, the comics and graphic novel market, it's kind of small. But I mean, I, as a creator, I feel really frustrated because it shouldn't be small, like so many people read them, but it's still treated as a, it's treated, it feels like it's still treated like poetry or something, like it's a small niche thing. And in fact, there was some research done recently, and poetry is better funded than graphic novels. And not that poetry doesn't deserve to be funded, but graphic novels actually have a lot more readers. Anyway, that's beside the point. But it was like, it was an interesting moment, like when the story came out, because I think every few years there kind of is a sort of resurgence of interest in the UK and people are like, oh, we need to start publishing graphic novels. And it was just the right moment for me. And a literary agent who didn't usually represent comic artists offered to represent me. And so that's how I got my first book deal.

[09:30] Marissa: Oh, interesting. And did you have a book ready to go when that agent signed you?

[09:36] Isabel : No. So he was like, he was like, we can work, you know, we'll work together on a book pitch, basically. And Jonathan Cape, who ran the competition, after I won, the editor basically phoned up and was like, have you got any ideas? So I basically came in with, I pitched something really quite vague, but kind of made a really, I kind of hand printed a really, a three, sort of a double size big Tome thing with like, lots of illustrations and stuff. And I, the way I pitched the book was that it was kind of a collection of interlinking stories with a kind of loose, overriding plot arc. And it was vague enough that I kind of, it's not that I made it up as I went along, but I think it was a much looser pitch than I've ever done and I would ever do now, but they were quite excited by it, and, yeah, they gave me the kind of advance off the back of the pitch, and then that was how the first book happened, basically.

[10:45] Marissa: That is so interesting. Was that really stressful? Because it seems like a lot of pressure to put on someone who you've never, at that point in your life. It sounds like, if I'm interpreting correctly, you'd never made a graphic novel and something of that length before. Was that true? Nerve wracking.

[11:02] Isabel : I think the longest thing I've done was about ten pages.

[11:04] Marissa: Oh, my God.

[11:05] Isabel : The way I think I worked it out was that it began as a collection of short stories. So I was like, oh, well, that's manageable. You know, they're just going to be these little short stories that kind of link together. And then as I was writing them, it felt. It didn't quite feel satisfying to me, so I introduced a kind of more overriding plot arc. So the book was initially pitched as kind of more like a kind of literally an encyclopedia. But as I was working on it, I felt like I wouldn't be satisfied with that as a reader. So that's why the kind of more concrete, sort of more satisfying frame narrative came through. So I think that's how I managed it. And also, I think it was just the kind of, I don't know, the arrogance of youth, maybe. I think I just didn't really know. I didn't know what I was doing, so I didn't have anything to be worried about because I didn't know. I guess at that point, it hadn't occurred to me that it might go wrong or that I might not be able to do it or even that people would read it. It was just like, I couldn't possibly comprehend that, so it wasn't scary. Whereas now, there's absolutely no way that I would pitch something so vague without preparation now. But I think that's because I understand the process, like, you know, how much work goes into it and. But I think that was a. It was a really fun book to make because I was learning as I was going, and it was really like, you know, I didn't have. I was, like, just being a nanny, right? So I didn't have any particular other responsibilities, whereas, you know, now I have, like, a teaching job and a child and the trappings of adult life weighing me down. And also, like, the worry that the book won't do well or that it needs to like, make money and sell and whereas that first book was very. Just like, you know, I think I just hadn't really occurred to me that it would be read.

[12:55] Marissa: Right. Well, there is.

[12:58] Isabel : I don't know if that's like a common experience with people making a first book, but I imagine it must be.

[13:05] Marissa: Yeah, no, I think there is part of that. There's the hopefulness, but also. Yeah, a little bit of naivete, like, you talk about, like, I don't know, you don't know how difficult it is, so you just do.

[13:17] Isabel : Exactly, yeah. And also, you know. Yeah, I think. I don't know. Like, when I think back now, like, I had so few, um, I was juggling. So a few things compared to now, I guess. Yeah. So if. When I think about it, it feels like a very kind of, ah, yeah, I'm sure it must have been hard at the time, but. Yeah, it was. It was like, it was twelve years ago now. So, like, I guess.

[13:43] Marissa: Yeah, no, I mean, I can understand a kind of more mental space for that creative aspect to just kind of explore. And if this doesn't work, well. Oh, well, I've lost a week or two, but I'll just try something else. As opposed to when you're juggling so many things, it's like every sidestep feels like, ah, I need to make up that time now and I need to be efficient and productive and it can be. Yeah. Just more pressures of all daily life.

[14:09] Isabel : Yeah. And I do know, like, when you're 25, you're just like, really? I just.

[14:13] Marissa: I had.

[14:14] Isabel : I was just very. I was very chill. I was 25.

[14:21] Marissa: Still pretty chill, honestly.

[14:24] Isabel : Oh, thank you.

[14:26] Marissa: All right, so here we are. You now know so much about making graphic novels. Your fourth has just come out, or is coming out tomorrow. Would you tell listeners what is Young hag and the witch's quest about?

[14:41] Isabel : So the titular character, young hag, is a teenager and she lives with her mother and her grandmother in a sort of magical, fictional, post arthurian written. And she's always been told by her mother and grandmother that they are a sort of coven and of witches, and that she assumes that when she comes of age, she will sort of come into her magic, I guess. But when she comes of age, they basically sort of tell her the truth about their family history, which is that they lost their magic in a kind of ancient purse and that all the magic from Britain is gone, but that they sort of. I don't want to spoil too much, but there's a sort of broken sword, a mystical quest and young Hag basically sets off to bring magic back to Britain. So she's kind of discovering all these mythical stories about sort of King Arthur and Lancelot kind of stories that we are familiar with. I guess anyone who's read any of that kind of those stories have been reworked over and over again. So I think everyone knows who King Arthur is. And the idea is that young Hag is kind of, she's the main character, but through her, we kind of revisit these sort of, like, well worn tales, but through her eyes and her story is the more important story. And I guess the stories that she's told, these old tales are important in the way that they, I guess, help her on her own quest kind of thing. Yeah. All right.

[16:29] Marissa: So, as you say, it is deeply rooted in arthurian legend and yet, of course, giving your own spin to it and kind of young Hag's interpretation of these stories. Why King Arthur? What drew you to arthurian legend?

[16:43] Isabel : I really loved them growing up. I can remember there was various, like, adaptations that I read that I loved. Rosemary Sutcliffe T's white. There was a Michael Mapurgo adaptation I read when I was older. I read the mists of Avalon. And I think, like, for me, those stories, yeah, they were just very magical. And especially because there are places in Britain you can go where, you know, you can go to Tintagel and you can visit castles and standing stones, and even though there's, like, usually like a motorway going in the background and, like, you know, like, I don't know the trappings of modern life everywhere. I think sometimes, you know, that it. I think, especially when I was younger, I was really able to kind of feel, I guess, quite transported. And they feel the arthurian legends to me are a little bit like a really lovely. They're like fantasy, but they happen in places where the place names are real. So it's almost like real. It's almost like history. But there's dragons and magic.

[17:52] Marissa: Yeah, no, they feel like they could be real. I mean, it's. I've always felt like with arthurian legend, like it is fantasy, but there's just enough truth to them that it kind of, there's a gray area, like, where does actual history stop and the legend begin?

[18:11] Isabel : Yeah. And I think, you know, also so many of the tropes that you find in the arthurian legends, like, come up in, like, other great fantasy anyway. You know, there's lots of kind of, you know, like mythical swords, magical swords, all that kind of wizards. You know, you've got all that in other fantasy, too. So, yeah, I mean, I think I was, I just loved fantasy growing up and this was kind of one of my, yeah, one of my favorites. And I think there's something, I also love stories that have been stories that everyone owns, you know, I think like myths, legends, folk tales, fairy tales, theyve been reworked over and over again. And theres something kind of amazing about being allowed to use characters who so many other people have used. I really love that, you know, or stories like, I cant imagine another, like, it would be completely unacceptable. Well, no, unless you were existing in the realms of fanfiction. You cant just take someone else's character and write a story about it. But it's sort of allowed with folktales and fairy tales. And I love that.

[19:17] Marissa: Is there a part of you that was worried at all about taking something that is so familiar and so beloved and that so many people have already had their fingers in and done their own thing? Like, was there any part of you that's like, oh, no, but what am I going to do that's different? Was that scary at all?

[19:35] Isabel : Yeah, but I think in some ways my previous book, Glastown, was a sort of fictionalized, semi magic, realist biography of the Brontes and their juvenalia. And honestly, I was much more scared about that because I think when you're working with material that so many people have tampered with, there's so much more freedom to do what you like. No one can say, like, oh, well, you know, Morgan le Fay had, doesn't have blonde hair, she's got brown hair, because, you know, you could, you can probably pluck, you know, it's been readapted and re appropriated and remade so many times that you can almost find almost everything's, it feels like there's, it's kind of open playing field, really. Whereas when I was working with the bronte stuff, I was really worried about kind of getting, like, although I was playing with a lot of the stuff in their juvenalia, I kind of made it into a sort of imaginary world. There was a lot of stuff in the book that needed to be factually accurate to their biography. And that was really nerve wracking because, you know, I knew that people who were real bronte fans would probably read it and if I got things wrong, you know, they might be upset or I might get an angry letter or something. Whereas I think with the arthurian stuff, no one's going to write you a letter being like, oh, you got that detail wrong because it's not real, you know, like, and it's been. It would be like saying, oh, you know, Cinderella had 14 buttons on her dress, not 15. Like, who knows how many buttons she had? I guess that was the example. But, yeah, no, it didn't feel to me as scary as playing with the Brontes.

[21:12] Marissa: Yeah.

[21:12] Isabel : I know that maybe worried that it was. That people might be. I think when you said, I think the bit of it, bit of the bit of what you said that did concern me was like, hash, people had enough of this. Have people have enough of King Arthur, you know? But then I was thinking a lot about how there's been such a kind of resurgence of interest in, like, finding, you know, like, feminist retellings of greek mythology, for example. And I don't think the arthurian legends have had that treatment in quite the same way to this. To the same extent that, say, greek mythology has. And not in the YA market. In the YA graphic novel market. Anyway, I think.

[21:55] Marissa: Yeah, yeah. No, it's a funny thing with retellings, you know, whether it's Arthur or fairy tales or mythology, you know, because I don't have done a fair amount of retellings also. And there is always that little part of you that's like, okay, but has this run its course? Are people tired of this? You know, do people really still want this? But it does seem that they do. These. These topics, these stories that are so ingrained in popular culture and in our society, for whatever reason, you just can't get enough of them.

[22:28] Isabel : Yeah. And I guess the fact that I will still read them kind of makes me think, yeah, I guess, you know, I know all the stories, but they're still exciting to me, you know, reading them, I think, because the original stories are so. I guess the thing with myths and fairy tales is that the original stories are very. It's kind of like you get the bare bones, like you have, like, the plot and the, you know, it's often, like, with a fairy tale, it might be like an archetype, like a sort of handsome prince or a lonely woodcutter, and then it's up to you to flesh them out, I guess. I think the difference with the arthurian stories is maybe there was. The original material is quite fleshed, but then there's also. Yeah, so many. So many versions and so many retellings. And, like, the character of Morgan le Fay is such a. Kind of. Such a slippery one. Like she's, you know, I can think of, like, five different adaptations where she's been completely different.

[23:29] Marissa: Yeah. Yeah. And that's part of the fun of doing something like this where it is so rich, there is so much material to draw from, you know, as opposed to like a fairy tale where you could look at different, you know, versions of the story from different parts of the world and this sort of thing. But they're, they're very short and concise and it's just really those, those details, those elements, the glass slipper, the ball, whatever. Whereas with arthurian legend, you are given so much material to work with or.

[23:59] Isabel : Greek mythology, so many characters, plays or whatever. Yeah. Which, yeah. And it is exciting.

[24:06] Marissa: Yeah. No, it's fun. It's fun as a creative to be given all of this and then think, okay, what can I do with it? 

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Marissa: This is one thing that I love about this book, is that it is kind of a classic quest story. We have this character, young hag. She wants to bring magic back to the world and her family and Britain, and she goes on a quest. And on the quest we're meeting allies and we're encountering obstacles and going through these really cool settings, the goblin market and the fairy parade and all of this. And I just love that. Are you a plotter? Did you kind of figure out what the beats of this quest were going to be? Or do you just kind of start off on the journey with the characters and see what happens?

[26:24] Isabel : I'm definitely a plotter in that I need to know where they're going and sort of like the beginning and the middle and the end, etcetera. But I think I'm definitely very. I start off with quite a detailed plot breakdown, but I'm very relaxed about tossing things out and kind of, you know, if a new idea comes to me, I'll put it in there. And this one was quite fun because I definitely, like, I definitely set out to write a quest book. I was thinking I wanted to write a graphic novel that I would have loved when I was 13. And I loved fantasy and quests and adventures and, yeah, that was kind of. And so the bits that I think were quite freeform were maybe like, which ones are the arthurian legends that I wanted to kind of play with? Whereas the plot, like young Hag's journey, you know, that was more set in stone. So I knew she was going to, like, meet her friend Tom. They were going to come across this changeling that they would have to, you know, ultimately they were going to go to the land of Faerie. You know, those were the things I kind of knew were going to happen. And then in terms of the arthurian stories that. That she discovers on the way, that I kind of was quite spontaneous with, I think.

[27:53] Marissa: So you'd mentioned when you were talking about doing your first graphic novel and that you didn't really know how much work this was going to entail and that now you've done it, you're more experienced. And I always worry, or not worry. I always wonder with graphic novels, the revision process, because to me, I'm not an artist. No illustration background whatsoever. And the idea of, like, drawing all of this out and then deciding, oh, this entire scene or sequence needs to change and then having to redraw all of it, to me, that sounds like a nightmare. What is your process as far as when it comes to revising the work?

[28:39] Isabel : So I think before I start drawing anything to its final level, to its final standard, the entire book would be pencilled all the way through with kind of very loose, quick sketching. So at that point, that's when I would start throwing bits out and making the changes with my first graphic novel. Because after about 50 pages of doing that, I was like, I'm bored. I feel like doing some final artwork now. I did, you know, do that and then that. For that book, there did end up being sections that had to be taken out because it just didn't work. And I'd already drawn them because I wanted to start drawing. Whereas now I know that that is not, you know, that's difficult because it does. It does mean that you don't want to throw things out. And it is really, really time consuming doing the drawing. And especially if you get attached to the artwork, you know, you might want to leave it in even if it doesn't work. So that's why I try to pencil everything all the way through with the script sort of fully in place. And often by the time I've got to that point, it's. Yeah, that's where the changes happen. And by that point, I've also often, like, scripted out large blocks of, like, dialogue beforehand anyway, in, you know, on my computer. So, you know, I'll look at, you know, I'll be able to see the dialogue then and know if things are working or not working. And often as well with the way I'll write before I start drawing is I kind of often write it as prose with kind of bits of description. And he said and she said and things like that. Yeah. And then obviously, all that gets cut out as I'm putting it into the speech balloons. And then sometimes I'll find when I'm then putting the speech balloons into the final artwork, often, sometimes I might change the dialogue at that point. Like, if I feel like, you know, suddenly seeing the character in their finished form, you know, I might think, oh, actually, I don't think they'd say that in that moment, you know? So I do, like, change the dialogue quite a bit at each. At each stage, basically, yeah.

[30:46] Marissa: Do you think there's a prose novel in your future?

[30:48] Isabel : Do you know what? Every time I finish a graphic novel, I'm always like, that's the last time I'm doing a graphic novel. It's ridiculous. I'm going to do a prose novel and then I'll start writing it. But then I'll be like, oh, but this would look really cool, like, drawn like that and, oh, I want to draw that thing there. So I think, like, maybe one day. But I think I love the drawing process so much. And for me, actually, the way I now, like, think and approach stories, I think is very tied to the visuals. But I do love the writing. Yeah, I don't know. I think at some point, definitely. I'm sure I will. I will. Yeah.

[31:31] Marissa: Or maybe one of those, like, hybrid novels that's like a little prose and a little illustration. I love those. I love reading them with my kid.

[31:39] Isabel : Yeah, absolutely. Definitely. Yeah.

[31:42] Marissa: Yeah. How long does it take? What's the. What's the timeline on a book like this for you?

[31:49] Isabel : So I guess with young hag, I probably took me, I guess, like, coming up with the idea can often be the. For me, usually is often the bit that I really ruminate on for ages. But I guess young hag was quite a different process from my previous two books because I just had my daughter, and I think I was having a bit of a, like, my career's over because I've had a kid sort of panic. And so I was like, I need to come up with a new book idea and pitch it immediately. So whereas previous books, I think I had spent a lot longer kind of researching and getting to know the characters before I put together a pitch, this one, I was like, right, here's my plot. Here are my characters. And although actually the character of young hag had occurred to me, like, a few years before, but I hadn't really known where to put her, I guess. But, yeah, I think because there was this sudden time pressure of having a baby, I had to work in a much more concentrated and intense way with much less thinking and playfulness. And that was kind of. I'm so sorry, I forgot the question. Ramble. I forgot the question.

[33:12] Marissa: Yeah. How long did it take? It was an average.

[33:17] Isabel : Okay. I'm really glad that I asked the question, because as I was talking just now, I was like, if I just keep talking, maybe the answer will come to me.

[33:24] Marissa: You'll answer it. You'll answer it eventually.

[33:26] Isabel : No, that's actually quite a specific question. So, yeah, usually I think the coming up with the idea period would be longer, but for young hag, I think it took me a couple of months to come up with the idea, and then six months, probably, to pencil the book all the way through, which is, you know, like, kind of the writing of it, the sketching, and then another sort of ten months to do all the final artwork. So I guess about a year and a half to two years in total.

[33:55] Marissa: Okay.

[33:57] Isabel : My first book was a lot quicker just because I wasn't doing other things, really, at the same time. Like, now I teach at a university. I have a kid. So, like, the time I can spend. And I do other projects as well, you know, sometimes. So, like, kids books and things. So the time I can spend on graphic novels is much more, I guess, concentrated now.

[34:18] Marissa: Yeah. No, and I ask, it's interesting to me because I love graphic novels, but they're a much faster reading process than a prose novel. But enough on the flip side, they seem like they see, tend to take longer to create than most prose novels. And this is, of course, a generalization. Some authors take longer than others, et cetera et cetera. But I was reading, I read young hag when my kids were at their Pokemon club. So it's like, we got to the library, they went off to their club. I sat down 2 hours later, I'd finished the book and I loved it and I absolutely devoured it. But I was just thinking, like, does that bother you that you spend a year and a half on something and then someone can read it in like 2 hours?

[35:05] Isabel : No, it doesn't bother me at all. And also in a way, like, with young hag, I quite, I kind of, because I wanted to write this adventure story and I want it to be like, it's the first book where I really wanted to kind of bridge that crossover, you know, bridge that crossover audience and really kind of appeal to a YA market as well. Like, it's a weird one because actually in the UK it's being marketed as an adult book, whereas in the US it's a ya. And I'm really, I really wanted it to be a YA book. And so I wanted it to have that kind of consumable, like, I wanted someone to pick it up on their lunch break in the school library and maybe just like read it on two lunch breaks and maybe they'll come back. And I think the great thing about graphic novels is I think that people, I think they can be slow burns. I think you maybe read them fast, but I think you go back and you pick them up and you look at your favorite pages again. And I think it's quite rare, for example, with a prose novel that I would read it and then go back to find a passage again, you know? And I think that's the thing that you have with graphic novels, which is that people revisit the artwork, you know, they go back to their favorite pages and they look again. And kids like, you know, when I was like a teenager, I would copy out pages from comics I liked. And I love the idea of like, kids, you know, like teenagers, young people like looking at my work and like, you know, finding a page they like and like copying it out and, you know, doing their own versions and stuff. Yeah, but yeah, I think they are, you know, I also do the same. Like, I'll often swallow a graphic novel in one or two sittings, but it's just a, it's a different reading experience to a book.

[36:47] Marissa: Yeah, yeah. And I like that point. And I, again, I am not an illustrator, but I loved manga when I was a teenager. And I would attempt to draw sailor Moon and tuxedo mask in all of this. Absolutely. I totally know what you're saying. All right, my last question before our bonus round. You've mentioned that you have a young kid at home and that you are also working a teaching job. So here, just. I guess it's going to be two weeks as of when this goes live. Just two weeks ago, we had an episode all about trying to strike a writing life balance. How does one do it? How do we fit writing and creativity in with all of the other things going on in life for you? Like, if you have one tip or one thing that works for you, what would you suggest?

[37:39] Isabel : I think it's really hard because I guess everyone's process is very, very different, and I think what works for me is treating it. I'm not a person who can work into the evenings, for example. I'm not a nighttime worker, so it's never worked for me to kind of frantically scribble away until one in the morning. I'm just too tired. So I kind of treat like my. I love what I do, but it is. I try and treat it like a job. So it's like, okay, these are my working hours. I've got from 845 until 530, and that's my working day, and I'm going to work. And if I don't feel like working, I think when I meant the drawing stages, it's very much like graft. So I know, you know, I know what I have to draw, and often I might have, like, a podcast or an audiobook on while I'm doing it, and a whole day can just, like, vanish while I'm just plowing through the drawing. The writing stage is a lot different, because I think if you're not in the zone and you don't feel like doing it, you can't just sit down and make the words come from nowhere. So when I'm in one of those kind of moods, I think my tip would be to switch projects. So. Or, yeah, like, so if I'm kind of trying to start something new and I'm working on a script and it's not coming, then I'll close the computer and maybe get out some drawing stuff and try and play around with the visuals. Or, you know, I really love, like, kind of crafting stuff as well. So, like, I like quilting and ceramics. So if, like, my drawing and writing isn't, like, working, I might step away and try working in a different medium. Yeah. So I think, like, don't. For me, it's like, I always want to use that work day, but sometimes you can't always use it in the way that you should, but it's never wasted. I don't know if that's helpful. I think if I'm honest, now that I have so little time, you know, like, I can't, I have no choice but to utilize every minute that I have. Whereas when I was younger, I think I could be like, oh, well, im not in the zone. Ill go and see an exhibition or ill go for a walk and see if it comes to me later. But now its like, okay, ive got one day this week to work on my own projects. I have to make the most of it. So if the work itself isnt working out, ill try and do something so that when I have to then go back to my teaching job the next day, I don't feel like I didn't, I guess, utilize that time or create something. Yeah, no, really hard to find the balance. But I have to say I also think that I wouldn't, I don't think I want to do it full time. Like, I love, I love teaching. I teach at university and the students are just like, so exciting and that's really great. And also I think it makes me work harder. Like having my time, like limited and having to like, jump around between projects, I think gives me an energy.

[40:51] Marissa: Yeah, no, that makes sense. Perfect sense. And I like that, you know, progress is progress and it's not always the progress you think or planned on making.

[41:02] Isabel : That day, but, yeah, it's not necessarily linear, you know, and I think you have to be okay with that.

[41:08] Marissa: Yeah, yeah, I know. And I have days where, you know, I might think, okay, I've got time. I'm going to write whatever, 4000 words and then maybe I'm just so tired or I'm feeling burned out from a project and then I end up just reading a book or going to see a movie. And it's really easy to get, like, feel guilt over that. But I have to remind myself that, like, this is also a part of the process. This is the recovery. This is the filling of the creative. Well, this is getting energy back so that tomorrow or this weekend or whenever, then I can switch back to writing or revising or whatever it is. And it's all important.

[41:46] Isabel : And I think it's been a. My daughter's about to go to school in September. She'll be going to school and that will be a really big shift because for the past four years been looking after her. When she was first born, I was looking after her full time. And then three days a week and then two days a week, and now just one day, like, one weekday a week. But it's been, like, a slow process to get my time back, I guess. September will be the first time that I've had a five day working week in four years. So for the past four years, I've been slotting in, like, slotting in my work at weekends and in evenings and between things, you know? And I think it will be quite exciting to suddenly have this five day working week back again. Obviously, then I have the massively long school holidays, but, you know.

[42:41] Marissa: Yeah.

[42:41] Isabel : Wings and roundabouts.

[42:44] Marissa: Pros and cons, always. All right, are you ready for the bonus round?

[42:49] Isabel : Yeah, absolutely.

[42:51] Marissa: What book makes you happy?

[42:54] Isabel : Okay, so I think, like, I'm somebody who very much has. I have, like, a pile of comfort reads that I always return to when, like, I don't know, like, I'm away from home or I'm having, you know, it's an anxious time or. Yeah, I have, like, a pile of comfort reads. And I think if I had to say what books makes me happy, it must be those ones that I return to over and over again, I guess. So. I love. There's a book by Diana Wynne Jones called Fire and Hemlock that I've read over and over again. The Earthsea Quartet is a book that I return to over and over again. And also there's a series of four books by a british author called Elizabeth Jane Howard called the Cazalets, which is a kind of. And this is one that I always read when I'm, like, feeling sad in my life. It's very, very long, four books. Each one is, like, 500 pages. And it's a rambling, epic kind of family saga that begins at the start of the second world war and ends, like, five years after. And it's like this kind of harsh country family. And there's, like, a cast of about 30 characters, and they have. There's lots of, like, very long descriptions of, like, the food that they're eating. And often it's, like, kind of slightly weird british, old british food, like, roly poly puddings and things like that. And I find that, like, a deeply comforting read. So, yeah, I think in terms of what books make me happy, it's those, like, familiar, comforting worlds that I go back to over and over again.

[44:39] Marissa: Yeah, I know you kind of hinted at it earlier, but is there anything you can tell us about what's coming up next?

[44:46] Isabel : So I think, basically, I've been wanting for a while to kind of tackle, I guess, the topic of motherhood a bit, and particularly, I guess, the push and the pull that comes with trying to be a creative person and a mother at the same time. So, you know, how it can be, like, magical, but also really hard, you know, in terms of, like, you know, I think I find my daughter, like, inspiring in loads of ways, but also it's a real. It's really hard when your brain wants to be doing this other thing that you love, but you're also being, like, pulled down by, like, cheerios and stomach bugs and, like, cowpole syringes, you know?

[45:43] Marissa: Yeah.

[45:44] Isabel : And I think I want to write something about, like, yeah. Like, creativity and motherhood and sort of, like, the ways that people feel so differently about motherhood, you know, ambivalence about being a mother and. Yeah, I just think the slight, the kind of complexity and that's. I think so I'm working on something that kind of. It's a fictional graphic novel story, but it's sort of encompassing some of those themes that I'm quite interested in at the moment.

[46:10] Marissa: Love it. Lastly, where can people find you?

[46:15] Isabel : I'm on Instagram. Isabelle Greenberg. And, yeah, that's actually the only social media I have. Oh, no. I do have a TikTok, but I don't really know how to use it. I mean, like, I just can't. I haven't. Haven't got my head around TikTok. That sounds really lame. But, like, there's just so much on there that every time I open it, I get a bit, like, stressed out and overwhelmed and, like, but I have a TikTok, and I've got, like, three videos, and I keep meaning to get good at TikTok.

[46:46] Marissa: So one day with all your copious amounts of free time. Yeah, yeah.

[46:51] Isabel : Follow me on TikTok. And you never know, I might, like, learn how to TikTok, but I haven't totally got it yet, if I'm honest.

[46:58] Marissa: Well, good luck. I was just like, nope, I can't do any more social media. I'm not even going to try.

[47:04] Isabel : I know. And people keep saying to me, like, oh, but TikTok's so great for books. And I'm like, I know. I know it is. And I want to, like, I want to embrace book talk, but I don't. I just don't have the time yet.

[47:16] Marissa: Yeah, no, I don't. It's for everybody. I mean, some people just thrive on it, and. Great, that's wonderful. But I just know it wouldn't be for me. I would just be so awkward every time. So I was like, no, stick with Instagram.

[47:31] Isabel : Well, yeah, you can find me on Instagram, definitely. And yeah, check out young hag when it hits the bookshops in the US in a couple of weeks.

[47:40] Marissa: Awesome. Isabel, thank you so much for joining me.

[47:43] Isabel : Thank you for having me. It was really great to chat readers.

[47:47] Marissa: Definitely check out young hag in the witch's quest. It comes out tomorrow. Of course, we encourage you to support your local indie bookstore if you can. But if you don't have a local indie, you can check out our affiliate store@bookshop.org, shop. Marissa Meyer next week, we will be posting another writing life craft focused episode all about tackling the outline. Please don't forget to leave us a rating or review on your favorite podcast app and check out our merchandise on etsy, Instagram and teepublic. Be sure to follow us on Instagram. Happy writer podcast until next time, stay inspired, keep writing, and whatever life throws at you today. I hope that now you're feeling a little bit happier.