Outline Your Novel! Tips, Tricks, and Encouragement with Save the Cat! Writes a Novel's Jessica Brody

Marissa chats again with Jessica Brody, author of Save the Cat! Writes a Novel and Save the Cat! Writes a Young Adult Novel about her popular craft books and how she adapted the original Save the Cat screenplay book’s components for novel-writing. Also discussed in this craft-focused episode: how even pantsers can benefit from outlining tips, how having an outline doesn’t mean the story is set in stone, how having an outline can shine a light on problems before a draft makes it harder to fix and move things around, how you can start with just five essential beats, favorite and least favorite beats, how plot and character are so entwined, the danger of outlining becoming a procrastination crutch, and so much more!

Big Magic: https://bookshop.org/a/11756/9781594634727 

7 point story structure – video series dan wells https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLzfRuHa21NIzQFrQ6FAq8Pj2IA_SXiwrN 

Save the Cat! Writes a Young Adult Novel: https://bookshop.org/a/11756/9781984859235 

Save the Cat! Writes a Novel: https://bookshop.org/a/11756/9780399579745

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Transcript

[00:09] Marissa: Hello. Hello, and welcome to the Happy writer. This is a podcast that aims to bring readers more books to enjoy and to help authors find more joy in their writing. I am your host, Marissa Meyer. Thank you for joining me. One thing making me happy this week is that thanks to you listeners, we came in number three in writing podcasts on good pods last week, which is so thrilling. I am delighted and honored and just really excited about that. And even better, like, the number one writing podcast was a screenwriting specific podcast, and the number two was focused on, like, nonfiction and entrepreneurs. So in a way, I kind of feel like for the novelists and the fiction writers, we were kind of number one. So yay. Thank you, listeners. I am also so happy to be.

[01:08] Jessica: Talking to today's guest.

[01:10] Marissa: She is one of my favorite writers and one of my favorite people, and she is the author of I counted 32 novels for readers of all ages. But many of you will recognize her as the author of Save the Cat writes a novel, and save the cat writes a young adult novel. She's also the founder of the writing Mastery Academy, one of our sponsors here on the Happy writer podcast. Back for the third time on this show, please welcome Jessica Brody.

[01:44] Jessica: Hello, my dear. Congratulations on being the number one fiction writing podcast.

[01:49] Marissa: Thank you. At least on, like, that one app. I don't actually know what good pods is exactly, but they sent me that email. You're number three.

[01:57] Jessica: Cool. We'll take it.

[01:59] Marissa: We'll take it. I know for sure. Thank you so much for joining me. I'm so excited. We have been polling our listeners the last, I don't know, four or five months about what craft specific topics they are interested in us tackling and outlining kept coming up at the top. So I know people are excited for this episode, and you were the first person I thought of to be my. My outlining craft talk buddy. So I can't wait to talk to you about it.

[02:30] Jessica: Well, thanks for thinking of me. And, yeah, I am happy to talk about outlining. Let's do it.

[02:36] Marissa: I know. I feel like we could go on for a while. I'll try to keep us on track.

[02:41] Jessica: Okay.

[02:42] Marissa: So, Jessica, you. I mean, to start off, you literally wrote the book on outlining, or at least a book on outlining. Save the Cat writes a novel, and save the Cat now writes a young adult novel are some of my favorite outlining, and not even some of they really are my go to outlining resources. So before we kick this conversation off, would you tell listeners about these novel writing guides? The Save the Cat what is it? How did you adapt it from the original? Just like a quick rundown of what these books are?

[03:18] Jessica: Yeah, absolutely. Well, the original book was called just Save the Cat. It was a screenwriting guide, and it basically broke down movies into 15 steps or 15 plot points that they call beats. And I took those same 15 beats, and I noticed that they appeared in novels as well, like dating all the way back to Austin and Dickens and the classics. And so I interpreted the method and I analyzed the method and adapted it to teach novelists how to tell a compelling story with these same 15 beats. And I will just say, because I know we're going to talk about outlining today, but for any of you kind of outlining fearful outliners out there, it is also a great method to use when you're, if you've already kind of done a discovery draft or a pants draft, pants your way through the first draft, and now you need a revision guide. So I also tell people it works for that as well. But we'll talk about the outlining aspect today.

[04:20] Marissa: Yeah, no, and I'm glad you bring that up because, of course, we're going to be focused on outlining, but that's a really great point that a lot of what we do when we're outlining and what we're thinking about and kind of general plot structure, it is applicable later in the process as well. Whether you're revising, whether you're fine tuning a draft, these principles definitely can be applied throughout the writing process.

[04:48] Jessica: Yeah, I like to say the structure has to get added in at some point. Whether you do that upfront before you even start or you do that on the 15th draft, eventually your story has to work. And that's when it's helpful to turn to maybe a plotting method, like save the cat or what other plotting methods you want to use.

[05:10] Marissa: And then you also bring up, not everybody is an outliner. So I feel like we should tackle that just up front. I mean, because it is such a wide range. You've got your plant, your, your plants is kind of the middle of the road. You've got your pantsers on one side, your plotters on the other. And we all tend to fall somewhere on this spectrum for people who are afraid of outlining, or maybe they hate outlining. They think it's terrible and painful and awful. Should they just skip this episode? Or, like, do we feel like there's gonna be gems to be had? No matter where you fall on that spectrum?

[05:49] Jessica: I always think that there's gems to be had when you talk about structure in any form, whether you're talking about it as an outlining format or you're talking about it as a revision format, because when you write a full novel and then first draft and you have to figure out what to do with all these pieces, essentially the next step in the process is to create an outline for your next draft. And then a lot of that outline might already have some detail because you're taking it from the first draft. But I think there's an outlining piece to every draft you do is you have to kind of create an outline of what you think the next draft is going to look like. So I think that these kinds of structure talks can really be beneficial no matter where you are in the process. And then for people who are maybe on the fence, like, I've always done a discovery draft or I've always been a pantser, but now I sort of want to dabble in plotting. I want to see what it's all about. I have a lot of students in my writing mastery academy who come to the academy because they're sort of missing a piece. They're like, this pancing method is a little too chaotic for me, and for some people, it really, really works, and that's great. But they're looking for a little bit more structure, but maybe not a full on outlining method. Like, save the cat has 15 steps, and that's where you can start to look at maybe a simplified version of an outline. Like, maybe there's a really high level outline that you could start with as, like, a baby step into the, the world of outlining. Mm hmm.

[07:22] Marissa: No, I think those are all good points, and I agree. I think any talk of structure, really, any talk of craft is always going to be helpful. Like, it's never going to hurt you to have more information and know what works for other people. Maybe experiment, give it a shot, play around with some things until you kind of figure out what works best for you. And also our own process does change over time as well.

[07:47] Jessica: Absolutely. Yeah. And it's all an experiment, right? I mean, we've both written a bunch of novels, and I think, I don't want to speak for you, but for me, every book has been different. Yeah. Every book I go into thinking I know what I'm doing and something changes.

[08:01] Marissa: Oh, my gosh. Why is that? It's the worst. I swear by this many books into our careers, we should be like, yep, here we go again. Just got this.

[08:10] Jessica: Should be robots. Like, no problems.

[08:15] Marissa: And then I did also want to point out, and this comes up talking to guests all the time. It is so common for a writer to be a pantser, to not enjoy the outlining process. But as they get into their career, suddenly it's common that you are required to make an outline. Your editor wants it, your publisher wants it, your agent needs it to sell a book on proposal. So there are various reasons that you. You might just, at some point in your career, in your writing journey, you need to make an outline, or you might need to make an outline. So hopefully this will help those people as well.

[08:55] Jessica: Yes.

[08:56] Marissa: Okay. Well, let's get into it. You got an idea for a book. You're so excited. Where do you start?

[09:05] Jessica: Such a good question. Well, in my books, in my plotting books, I urge people to start with the character. And the reason for that is your character is who the plot is happening to. And until you sort of know who the plot is about and who is going to be most affected by the events of the plot, it's often hard to figure out what those events will be. So I like to tell people, start with the character. Start with three basic components of the character, which is, what do they want at the start of the novel? What are they actively pursuing? What are their biggest problems in their life? And then what do they actually need in order to come out of the story a changed person? Do they need to learn to forgive? Do they need to learn how to become more brave? What is that internal journey that they need to be on? And when you have those three elements set up, it's then really easy to start. I wouldn't say easy. It's easier to start looking at plot points, like the beats of the save the cat method or whatever method you're using, and saying, okay, so I have to have a catalyst, like an inciting incident around the 10% mark. So what kind of inciting incident is going to most affect this character that I've now designed? And I need this character to learn that life lesson by the end. So what kind of low point can I put them through in the 75% mark that's really going to push them towards that life lesson realization? And once you have the character, then the plot points become, you kind of have less options to choose from because you need to pick the plot points that are going to affect that character most. So that's why I like to start at least with a rough outline of who the character is.

[10:57] Marissa: When you're creating an outline. And maybe this might be one of those things that varies from book to book, because I know that it can for me. Do you say, okay, today is when I make an outline and you sit down and you hammer it out? Or is it like, okay, I'm gonna figure out the catalyst, the midpoint, the climax, and then I'll come back here and I'll let it simmer, and then I'll come back and I'll work on my fun and games. Or, like, do you kind of piecemeal it, or do you do it very systematically?

[11:31] Jessica: I do it more piecemeal. I kind of in the outlining phase, I really like to just do kind of open whatever they call blue sky brainstorming, where it kind of could be anything. At least that's where I start, where I try not to put any limits on myself. I try to just create ideas, and I will usually have a brainstorm document that has a place to put all of the beats and all of the character, you know, ingredients that I mentioned, and then I'll sort of bounce around. So I'll try to start with character, and I'll think, oh, you know, I want to write a character whose starting goal is, you know, to get into a good college, let's just say. And then, oh, you know what? That would make a great catalyst would be that she doesn't get in, so now she's got to change her whole life plan. So then I'll jump to the catalyst section and jot that idea down, and then I'll go, you know, maybe the goal shouldn't be to get into a good college. Maybe it's that she doesn't want to go to college and her parents are forcing her. And then the catalyst is she does get into the college that her parents want her to go. Now she's got to decide. So I'll sort of be jumping around, and then as ideas come to me, I'll sort of fill them in. I'll kind of slot them in. And slowly, over time, usually for me, it's about a week to two weeks, the more concrete outline will start to form. Is that how you do it as well?

[12:53] Marissa: That sounds pretty similar to what I do. And it changes. Like you said, you put this down as the catalyst and. Okay, done. That's the catalyst. As you're developing the outline, it's really common for me to say I put something in as the dark moment leading up to the climax, and then as I'm figuring things out and moving things around, I might realize, oh, no, that's actually the midpoint, and that's what kind of changes things. So it's always very kind of fluid, even when I start writing. And I think this is one thing that maybe confuses non outline writers is the idea that we can go through all of this work to create an outline, and yet it's still not fixed. It still tends to change as we're writing. Is that, I mean, what do you say to that, to people who are like, well, what's the point of even doing it if it's not gonna be the roadmap that I'm gonna follow the whole way?

[13:55] Jessica: That's a really good question. I'm now having an existential crisis about my outcome. What is the point in all this? No, it is a great question. I think, for me, I always joke that I only outline so I have something to deviate from. Like, I'm sort of an inner rebel where all, like, create the structure and then be like, I'm not going to do that. Who says I have to do that? You know, jokes aside, I treat an outline kind of like a first draft. You know, it's like the first, it's the first time I discover the story. And as we all know, first drafts are rarely final drafts. You know, if they are, then you're doing something better than I am, because my first drafts are usually pretty messy. So the outline is sort of like a pre first draft for me. It's like where I work out a lot of the details, and I can, I can kind of catch or at least start to see where some of the plot points that I have in mind may or may not work. Like, I can see plot problems, I can see logic problems from an outline view. I can't see them all, but I can see some. And so that allows me to move things around a lot easier than if I had 50 to 80,000 words. And then I'm trying to move around giant pieces of text in the outline form. I can move around bullet points or little cards or something, which is a lot easier to work with than a full manuscript. So I kind of treat that as, like, my first stab at the, at the story, and then the first draft kind of feels then a little bit more like a second draft where I'm like, oh, you know what? I didn't think of that. And now that doesn't really work, so I'm going to have to redo it again. And I just have to say, I can't tell you how many times my all is lost. And midpoints that, like, swapped around, like you said, the olives lost. No, it's the midpoint. No, it's the olives loss. Yeah. That happens a lot, too, because they're sort of similar beats, which we can talk more about, but that's pretty natural, I think, to happen.

[15:57] Marissa: Yeah, they kind of carry similar story purposes.

[16:01] Jessica: Right.

[16:03] Marissa: Okay, so let's go into the beats a little bit. Well, actually, no, I want to back up a little bit because for people who don't outline or have maybe never outlined, I know it can seem really intimidating. Like for. For some writers, not for me personally. Like, for me, the idea of just starting a draft without a plan seems terrifying. But I know it's the opposite for some people, that the idea of having to figure it all out in advance is the more intimidating prospect. What advice would you give to someone who wants to dip their toe in but is just intimidated by the idea of doing an outline?

[16:43] Jessica: Yeah. So the save the cat method uses 15 beats. So that's, like, 15 parts of an outline, which can feel like a lot. And there's a lot of ups and downs throughout those beats. So having to figure that all out in advance, particularly there's a beat called the theme stated, where you're supposed to figure out what the theme of your novel is, but then also have someone state it to your main character in this very cryptic, subtle, manipulative way where you're. Where you're kind of planting a seed for the reader. And that's a lot to handle before you even know the story. So, first of all, there's some beats that I kind of warn people that it's okay if you don't know those before you start writing. It's okay if you don't know a lot of things before you start writing. But there are five beats within the 15 beats that are sort of the crucial foundational pieces of plot, and they serve as the five biggest turning points of the story. So I like to think of them as anchors that hold the other beats up. So if you can just focus on those five beats, you can actually create a really rough, foundational outline for your story. And those five beats are the catalyst or the inciting incident, the break into two, which is where the character makes a decision and goes and takes some kind of action. The midpoint, which we talked about, which is the halfway point where something big is going to swap the story around. So another turning point, the all is lost, which is a low point that the character hits, and the break into three, which is when the character decides how to resolve all of the issues of the book and makes some kind of new plan. Now, those five beats are essentially the building blocks of all stories. So the other beats that I talk about in the book, they actually connect those beats together. So they're kind of strung between those five foundational beats. So I like to tell people, look at those five beats and see if you can kind of figure out a rough foundation of your story. What gets your character moving. That's your catalyst. What decision does your character make in reaction to the catalyst? That's your break into two. What kind of big event happens at the midpoint that changes the direction of the plot? Like a twist or a stakes are raised moment. That would be your midpoint. What's your character's lowest point that's going to force them to really change? That's your all is lost. And then what kind of decision do they make from that point? That's your break into three. And if you can come up with those five beats, you have an outline. It might not be super robust, but it's an outline.

[19:21] Marissa: Okay, I think that's a wrap. I think that's all we needed to know. I love that. I love how concisely you can clarify what these different beats are. And I love that it really can be so simple. And just like we talk about how writers fall on a wide spectrum of from plodding to panting, there's also a wide spectrum of outlines. And some outlines are incredibly bare bones, like you talk about. If you just know these big, major turning point moments, that can be enough to have something to be writing toward at any given point in your story. Or you can do all 15 beats, or you can do a chapter by chapter or a scene by scene outline, or you can go way on the other end and have a 60 page outline in which you break down the beats within every single scene. And you know what the character motive is at the start of every scene, and you figured out the setting for every scene, you can kind of pick and choose how detailed and in depth you really want to go with its outline to make it work for you.

[20:36] Jessica: Yeah, absolutely. I think it's to each their own. And you have to really. You have to play around to see what works. Something that I found that was really working for me for a while, and I've kind of leaned away from it recently, but I would write these, like, 50 to 100 page synopses after my outline, and that would be kind of like my first draft, and I could work out a lot of the details in those synopses. So it would kind of be like a short. Yeah, like a short first draft. But I found that that took a lot of the guesswork out of the first draft and allowed me to write the first draft a lot faster. But that's not for everyone, you know, and that's fine. You just kind of have to play around and see what works.

[21:17] Marissa: Yeah. And like you say, like you. You. It was working for you for a while. Now you're kind of moving away from it. I know. For me personally, I've run the gamut. I've written books with a very bare bones, 15 point outline, and then I've written with the 60 page, super thorough, in depth outline, and it kind of changes based on the book and based on where I am creatively at any given point.

[21:43] Jessica: Exactly.

[21:45] Marissa: We're not going to go into breaking down what every single beat is from the save the cat method, because honestly, people should just go get the book. They're really great resource. You won't regret it. I can't recommend it enough. But I did want to ask, do you have a favorite plot beat?

[22:10] Jessica: Oh, wow. Great question. So this is going to make me sound like a really dark person, but I love the dark night of the soul, and that's the beat that happens after the all is lost. So after the low point, I call it the wallowing beat because it's the beat where the character sort of feels really down, and it's just kind of wallowing in the misery and wallowing in their despair from the all is lost and kind of just feeling hopeless. And that's not why it's my favorite beat. Although I do love writing kind of angsty hopeless. It was a joke between me and my co author of the system Divine trilogy. She's like, okay, the dark night of the soul is up. Here you go, Jessica. Here's the main I love writing those angsty scenes, but the reason I love it so much is because it contains this moment that I call the dark knight epiphany. And it's like this spark in the darkness. It's this light bulb moment where the hero is at the lowest point. They feel like all is lost. They feel like all the hope is gone. And then something clicks into place in their mind. If it was a mystery novel, it'd be where the detective sees the clue in a new way and realizes that they now know who did it. But in any other novel, some kind of moment where the hero realizes something they didn't realize before, and it is kind of the birthplace of change from that spark. And I just love the idea of that. So the dark night of the soul ends up being the crucible that changes the character. Or as Blake Snyder said in the original book, he called it the cocoon that the butterfly emerges from. And I just love that. I love the kind of all the synergy that sort of happens in that beat. It's kind of, to me, it's where the magic of storytelling happens in that one beat. But, yeah, so I would say that one.

[24:08] Marissa: Yeah, no, I love that. I am also a fan of the dark night of the soul. I also like the darkness. But everything you said, it's the final turning moment. It's that moment of the story that says, this is what it's all been coming to right here and now. The protagonist has everything they need to go and do what needs to be done. It's a pretty powerful moment. Of all the beats, it might be the most powerful.

[24:35] Jessica: Ooh, yes. I agree.

[24:37] Marissa: I'm on the opposite end of the storytelling structure. My favorite moment is the catalyst.

[24:43] Jessica: That's a good one.

[24:45] Marissa: It's the only beat that I always know what it is right away, and it never changes. And so then when I start writing, it's usually the beat that I can the most clearly in my mind. And those first, like, I don't know, 30, 40 pages always kind of write themselves for me. And then I'm like, well, now I have to fill 500 more pages. I wish that hadn't been over so quickly.

[25:16] Jessica: Oh, I'm the same way, Marissa. My first act always writes itself, and I joke that I could write first acts if I could write a first acts for a living. Like, everything up to the catalyst, I would be a millionaire, because I just love writing the first 50 pages.

[25:34] Marissa: So fun. You figure the rest out, readers.

[25:37] Jessica: Yeah, I got you to the catalyst. You do the rest.

[25:46] Marissa: Calling all authors and book marketers. If you're looking to increase sales, there's a marketing agency that specializes in optimizing and advertising on Amazon. Amplify Marketing Services was founded by Franklin, who has been in the book business for more than 20 years. Amplify has promoted over 30,000 books, and they invest millions of dollars each year in Amazon ads. Head to Amplifymarketers.com to explore their free articles, or set up a free meeting with Franklin. That's amplifymarketers.com. Dot. Okay, how about your least favorite of the plot beats?

[26:32] Jessica: Oh. Oh, geez. Probably the. It's gonna be. It's kind of the same for everyone that I talk to. The bad guys. Closing is one of the hardest beats to write, and I know a lot of people feel that way, and a lot of people come. You know, I do these office hours in my writing mastery academy where the members can come and ask me questions, and it's probably the question I get more than anything. Like, how do I handle the bad guys close in? What do I do in this beat? It's because when you break into two, when you have your breaking to two, your hero has a plan. They have sort of momentum, and their plan is usually a response to the catalyst. So the momentum from the catalyst transfers over into the break into two, and then the next beat is called the fun in games, and it's kind of the implementation of this whatever plan or decision that the hero has made. And so now they're going after this goal, and they're pursuing whatever they're pursuing, and then the midpoint happens, and it's sort of like a record scratch. It kind of stops them in their tracks and turns the whole plot around. And now you've got to kind of keep going. And a lot of people go, I don't know what to do now. I stopped them in their tracks. I raised the stakes. Now I don't know what they're going to do next. And it is a difficult beat because it's also the beat where things start to meld together. Threads start to come together. The inner conflict, or inner demons, if you will, of the character start to kind of rear their heads. And so there's bad guys come, like external bad guys or external conflict coming at them, but also there's these internal bad guys. Like, they're internal demons are all also causing problems, and everything sort of leading towards this all is lost moment. And it's really hard to do. It's just hard. And so I tell people, yes, there's a way to do it. The kind of nuts and bolts is you should probably give your character some kind of new goal in response to the midpoint. That's the easy part. The hard part is making everything come together. And sometimes that just is, you know, a lot of trial and error, a lot of writing and rewriting scenes. I just spent the novel that I'm working on now, which is like my secret project. I spent three, four months rewriting the third draft of the bad guys clothes in. So I was on my third draft of the book, and I spent, like, three months just working on that one beat.

[29:02] Marissa: Yeah. No, and it's funny. And you talk about this in the book, in I don't know which one of the save the cat books, maybe both of them where of the 15 beats, some of them are a moment, it's a page, it's a paragraph, and then other beats can go on for chapters and chapters and really consist of quite a large portion of the book might be wrapped up in one quote, unquote beat. And those ones, the ones that seem to go on and on are, I think, the most difficult ones for everyone because it's not like, okay, moment, done, moving on. It is much more about trying to draw multiple threads together and build on your character arc. And there's just like a lot more at play.

[29:49] Jessica: Yeah, absolutely. I call them the single scene beats and the multi scene beats and the catalyst, your favorite, is a single scene beat. So it's, you know, it's like one of those ones you get to write and it's done. The fun and games and the bad guys close in are the two longest beats of the whole process. And they're both obviously multi scene beats.

[30:10] Marissa: Yeah, I did something to kind of go on a bit of a tangent. I did something this last week that I don't think I've ever done before. So I'm working on a new fairy tale retelling. And I got through my catalyst, I got through my doorway, I got through my, introduced the b plot, and then here comes the fun and games section and I have it outlined like I have a plan, but I was staring at that first fun and games scene plan that I had, and I just realized that I didn't know the character well enough and the world well enough yet. And I really was having one of those days where I just desperately wanted to get a lot of words written. I wanted to make some progress, needed some momentum. And so I skipped ahead to the midpoint because I was like, I know exactly what's going to happen in my midpoint. I know exactly what that's going to lead to. And I skipped about a third of the book, which I don't think I've ever done before, but it felt really good and it was a really productive day.

[31:10] Jessica: Yeah, I think that's a great idea. I mean, the fun in games is essentially driving toward the midpoint anyway. You're sort of lining up all of the right pieces to get to that midpoint. So if you write the midpoint and then backtrack, you might find you're. Oh, and now I know exactly what I'm writing towards because I wrote it already. Now I can kind of line everything up the way it needs to be lined up. So I'm curious to see how it plays out. For you.

[31:38] Marissa: Me too, Jessica. Okay, so you talked early on about how you like to start with a character, and I think that's interesting and maybe surprising to some listeners because we tend to think of outlining as being very plot driven, not so much character driven. So what are some ways that creating an outline can help with things like character development and character arcs?

[32:07] Jessica: Yeah. So I think that one of the things I talk about in the books is that plot by itself is sort of meaningless because who are these things happening to? And if they're not actually affecting anyone personally, like your character, they're not going to affect your reader either. Your reader's not going to know how to respond to them. So when we design catalysts that are essentially just like these bombs dropped in your character's life that just change everything. Until we sort of know what that character's life looks like, it's hard to develop a catalyst that will really affect them and then, by consequence, affect your reader as well. And then so many of the beats are actually designed to help you track a character transformation or a character arc. So, like I said, the catalyst is not just a random inciting incident. That means nothing. It's the most important incident to happen in this person's life. And the all is lost is not just like, oh, let's just kill some people off, some characters off and make it really sad. It's the lowest point of this character's life. And the break into three is not just a random plan to save the princess from the tower. It's the plan that's going to bring this character to their ultimate resolution and character transformation. So I think it's important to look at them together and not and looking at them separately, it feels kind of empty to me. Like, if I just develop a character, nothing's going to happen to them. They're not going to change until I actually put in plot points to force them to change. And if I just develop a plot, it's not going to have any meaning until it's actually happening to someone. So I kind of, even though I guide people to write characters or to develop their characters first, in reality, you're sort of doing it at the same time. You're kind of developing them in conjunction because they have to affect each other.

[34:15] Marissa: Do you outline, obviously, you use the plot beats to outline the plot of the story, the what happens? Part. Do you also outline, do you outline your character art specifically? Do you outline subplots? Do you like, how much of a, how much detail do you go into with things beyond the major points of the story.

[34:40] Jessica: Yeah, great question. It kind of depends. Perfect. Her story, like you said, in the creative place that I'm in, I should note, just to back up, just as tad, sometimes plots come to me first sometimes. And I think this happens to people. They're like, I want to write a story about this, and you don't even know who the character is. Maybe you have a world that you want to write in. Maybe you have a very specific series of events that you want to write about. Maybe you want a time period. Like, I want to write about World War two and this very specific event in World War two, whatever it is. But when you come up with that first, then eventually you're going to have to figure out, who does this story affect? So this happened to me. I remember when I came up with the idea from my book, 52 reasons to hate my father. The idea was I wanted to create a story about a girl who has to take on a different low wage job every week of the year. Like, I just thought that would be a fun premise and a very funny book. But then I had to go, okay, well, who's the best character for that to happen to? Who will be most changed by that plot idea? And I came up with an heiress who was supposed to inherit $25 million, but she's so spoiled that her dad decides he's going to make her work for that money by making her take on all these different jobs. And, of course, she's never worked a day in her life, so that made the funniest premise for me. So I think whether you come up with your character first or your plot first, again, they have to kind of make sense together. But so I develop them. When I do an outline, I make sure that each of the steps or each of the beats that I'm working on, I'm thinking about it in terms of how it affects my character.

[36:25] Marissa: And then. So you make an outline. You write a draft, first draft, second draft, wherever you kind of want to slot that in. How does the outline come into play within. With revisions.

[36:39] Jessica: Yeah. So I use the term beat sheet in the book, which is essentially an outline. It's the 15 beats of the method. And so what I'll usually do is I'll have an outline or a beat sheet before I start writing, and that can be as very detailed or very, just some loose bullet points, depending on where I'm at. And then I will write the first draft, and then essentially, I'll create what's like a second draft beat sheet. So I will look at what I have from my first draft. I will read it back through and try not to do any edits as I read. But what I'll be doing is I'll be creating beats based on what I already have. So I'll read through and I'll go, okay, that setup is working, but it needs an extra two scenes in order to do XYZ. So I'll mark that in my second draft outline that I have these points already, and I need these points. I actually use more storyboards for revision, which we can talk about if you want. But then I will kind of go through the novel like that, figuring out what beats are already there. What do I have? What am I missing? What needs to be amped up, what needs to be changed, what needs to be moved around. And by the end of that sort of review process, I will have a second draft beat sheet or outline, and that becomes kind of my revision plan for the next.

[38:02] Marissa: No, I love doing what I think of as the reverse outline. So I write an outline. I use that outline to draft a book. But things change, as we've already talked about. Things always kind of get moved around and shuffled around, and you kind of go off course. And so by the end of writing that draft, it may or may not resemble that initial outline, depending on kind of what the story needed. And so then I will, similar to what you're talking about, I'll go through that draft and create a new outline based on what I've written. And then one of my favorite parts of the process is to go through that new outline and see, okay, how did I do with the beats? Where's the catalyst? Does it feel like a catalyst? Can the catalyst be stronger? Where is my midpoint? How big of a change is that creating in this story? Does it need to be moved earlier, later? And I love it. I love kind of seeing how the story has come together. And I'm often surprised to note that even though I kind of veered away from the outline, the beats tend to hold up even if they don't look exactly how I thought they were going to look, which can be very affirming.

[39:20] Jessica: Yeah. And, you know, I have people, I have writers tell me that all the time. They'll use save the cat as a revision guide instead of an outlining guide. Like, they'll say, I'm a pantser. And I put my first draft through the sort of beat sheet test to see if I had the beats and where they fell. And a lot of people will say how delighted they are that they naturally wrote with structure, which is kind of a testament to the fact that the beat sheet is not really, like a newfangled, like, fancy new way of writing a story. It's just the way stories are told. And as readers, we have grown up with story, and so we kind of, whether we realize it or not, that template of story is kind of wired into us, so that when we do sit down to write a story, it can sometimes come out naturally. And then we go, I didn't even know I did that. I put a catalyst right at the 10% mark. I didn't even realize I was doing it, which I think is kind of cool to discover.

[40:17] Marissa: Yeah. And it's also a reminder to me, like, as I'm looking through my new outline or the draft that I've written, and you might see, like, okay, here's my doorway into two. And it's clearly that moment, and I know that it's that moment. But knowing that this is a really important beat is a reminder to stop and think, okay, the beat is there, but now, what can I do to really make it as powerful as it can be? How can I amp up that scene even more? It's kind of a. It shines a spotlight on those most important moments in the story to kind of jog something in your mind to be like, okay, I really need to double down in this moment. What can I do to make it as powerful as possible?

[41:03] Jessica: Yeah, I love that. And one of the things I find, one of the reasons that I was drawn to the save the cat method to begin with is that as a new writer, which I was at the time, it's so hard to know if your story is working. It's so hard. You're so in it. Like the trees in the forest, you can't see the forest. All you can see are the trees. And what something like this does is you've got these 15 beats. You can. Then you can use it as kind of, like you said, like an affirming tool. Like, oh, I actually did that. Right? Oh, this one, you know, this beat I'm missing, or it's coming too late. Okay, I can move that. But then you get kind of. You get a sense of confidence that your story is working, or if it's not, I know what to do to fix it. Yeah.

[41:50] Marissa: What are some of the most common challenges that you see people having when it comes to creating an outline?

[41:57] Jessica: One of them, we've already talked about thinking that the outline is set in stone, that it has to be perfect before they start writing. It absolutely does not. In fact, it probably won't be. So if you can just throw that idea out the window, you will free up a lot of energy if you can just think of it as a pre first draft or just ideas. And that's why I really like using bullet points, because they feel really temporary. And so I think that's a big, I guess I would say, false assumption that people make is like, I can't start writing until this outline is perfect. Because no matter how quote perfect the outline seems, like we've already talked about it's going to change as you write it. Things are going to come out as in the writing process that you just couldn't have thought of in the outline. So letting the outline be flexible, I think, is one tip to give people. And then also that outlines can be really, really sparse. They can be. I think a lot of people shy away from outlines because they think they have to have everything figured out. You could literally have one bullet point per beat, and that's an outline. And then at least you have something that you're working toward. And then also kind of in the same vein is there's 15 beats. If you're following the save the cat method, there's 15 beats. You don't have to have all 15 beats figured out. That's another kind of problem, is they're like, I don't know what the theme of the novel is yet, so I can't do the theme stated beat, or I don't know who my be story character is going to be yet. And I'll say, that's okay. Get the rest of them down and start writing and see what comes out. I've had books that I didn't figure out what the theme was till, like, the fifth draft.

[43:42] Marissa: Every book I write, I don't know what the theme is until the fifth draft.

[43:46] Jessica: I think. I know. I'm like, oh, it's going to be about this. And then suddenly I'll write one sentence in the fifth draft and I'll go, oh, that's the whole theme of the whole thing. They never thought about it. Yeah. So you just can't know what you're going to discover. And that's, to me, that's the joy of the process, is all of that discovery that happens. So the more you can just allow that to happen, I think the more joyful the process is going to be.

[44:13] Marissa: Yeah. No, and I think that's interesting, too, because an argument that you hear frequently against outlining is the idea that knowing what's going to happen for many writers kind of takes some of that joy of discovery away. And I can understand that some people just really want to start writing and see where it goes, and they really thrive on that. But I would also argue that just because you have an outline and you have an idea of what some of the major moments are going to be, there is still a lot to discover. And stories surprise me almost every day when I'm writing.

[44:51] Jessica: Yeah, I absolutely agree with that. And that is one of my favorite parts of the process. And even when I've done 60 page outlines, like I talked about, I still have those moments of, aha. I didn't think of that. And that changes everything. And this is so exciting because I think, for me, those are the things I write for.

[45:09] Marissa: Yeah. So you mentioned that someone should not try to have a perfect outline before they start writing, which I completely agree with because you'll never get there. You could be tweaking that thing for forever. But how does a person know how? When do you stop outlining and start writing? And I'm so curious to hear what you say because this is actually something that I continue to struggle with. I'm always like, okay, am I ready yet? Am I not ready? Hard for me to cross that hurdle.

[45:39] Jessica: That is such a good question. And I, I think the frustrating answer is that it's sort of one of those things that you have to figure out for yourself. However.

[45:47] Marissa: No, Jessica, wrong answer.

[45:49] Jessica: Wrong answer. I will, I will, I will give you some tips, but I will say that there is a danger to outlining too much. Like it can be a procrastination crutch. I've seen it happen. Also with world building, I can see, I see people just world build for years and they figure out the language and what all of the lakes and rivers are called, but they have no plot. And that's fine. If all you want to do is build your world and you don't care about having a finished novel, you should do what brings you joy. But it can be a really easy way to procrastinate, because outlining is one of those things that the book is still perfect in your mind when it's just an outline. You haven't written it yet. You haven't discovered the challenges you have as a writer. You haven't discovered the plot holes, the things that don't work. And those can be really debilitating and frustrating and can put a lot of people off, because I will just say right now, this sounds really dismal, but the book that comes out will never, ever be the book that it was in your head. Sometimes it's better, sometimes it's not. But we hold these kind of ideals in our mind of, like, we're going to write this perfect book, and sometimes that can be really the, the illusion of that can be really easy to protect. And as long as we stay in outlining mode, that illusion gets protected. You know, that illusion can live on. As soon as we start writing, it becomes a reality, and then that's scary, right? So I will just say, be warned, it's really easy to outline forever in, in search of that kind of perfect outline and to also avoid the reality of writing the book. But for me, it's a feeling that I get when I have kind of run out of the sparkly inspiration. There's something that happens to me in the brainstorm mode and the outlining mode, where it feels like ideas are bubbling and it feels very sparkly. Sparkly seems like a weird word, but it feels like, yeah, like when you open a can of soda and it's all fuzzy and it bubbles out and I fill out my little outline, I get really, really excited, and eventually that kind of fades into the background and the ideas are not really bubbling anymore. Like maybe a few here and there. That's for me, when I know that I've kind of tapped out my inspiration in outline form and it's time to start moving into novel form and discovering what I need to discover there. I don't know if that's helpful at all, but that's how I. I know.

[48:25] Marissa: Exactly what you're talking about. I know that feeling very well. So. No, that's a really great analogy, actually. I get it.

[48:33] Jessica: Good, good.

[48:33] Marissa: Better answer, then when the sparkle is gone, it's time to start writing. All right, my last question before we have a couple bonus questions. Of course, save the cat is such a great resource, and people who are curious about outlining or looking to find more structure in their writing should definitely check it out. Are there any other resources that you would recommend to someone who wants to get started on outlining?

[49:06] Jessica: So I get asked a lot how save the cat compares to Hero's journey, the snowflake method. There's lots of different plot structures that people follow. Unfortunately, this is the one I found really early in my career. It's the one I've used. I've never used anything else, so it's hard for me to point to other plotting methods without because I don't really know them, but play around with other methods if save the cat doesn't work for you. There's others that have ten beats and fit twelve beats. They're all the same thing. They're just dividing them in different places and calling them different names. But if there's one that speaks to you better than the other, then use that one. It's not right or wrong. It's just the one that works for you. I also really love just the resource in general for creativity. I love the book Big Magic by Elizabeth Gilbert. It is my go to inspirational book. I read it once a year just to kind of keep my creativity tank topped up. So that's a great one to go to, just to kind of get a little. A little more fuzz fizzle or, sorry, fizzle out of your. Out of your soda can. And. Yeah, and then, I don't know, I can talk about my academy as well. That's a resource.

[50:23] Marissa: But yeah, no, I'm going to ask you about that.

[50:26] Jessica: Okay, cool.

[50:27] Marissa: No, I also love big magic, actually. It's been a while since I've read it. I am due for a reread. I would also throw out another resource that I really love is the seven point story structure. Author Dan Wells has a video series about it on YouTube. If I remember right, he didn't actually create it. It was like inspired from, I don't think it was dungeons and dragons, but like some role playing game that he kind of took and then turned it into a novel writing method. But that's. It's like an hour to watch all the videos back to back. That's really short but really concise. Seven points. People aren't fully ready to take on all 15 beats of save the cat. That could be a good jumping in point for outlining as well.

[51:19] Jessica: Definitely.

[51:21] Marissa: Okay, so lastly, our quick bonus round here, because Jessica has been on this podcast before, so I'm not going to ask the same question that I ask every time, but would you please tell listeners a bit more about the writing mastery academy which you founded and how that might be able to help them become better outliners?

[51:44] Jessica: Yeah, absolutely. I founded writing mastery to be sort of a one stop shop of resources for writers that will meet you wherever you're at in your process. So we have lots of resources for plotting, for revising, for world building, for boosting productivity, creating writing routines, et cetera. So that's writingmastery.com dot. And then if you want to go even deeper, we have the writing Mastery Academy, which is my online writing school that I developed. We have the official save the cat novel writing course on there. All of our courses are on demand, so you can take them whenever you want at any pace you want. And in that course, I go into the same beats that are in the book, but I also go through an entire novel outline with you. Like I brainstorm a novel along with you and kind of workshop help you workshop your own novel. So that is an all access academy. So you get once you become a member, you get access to all of our courses. I think we have about 13 now. You also get access to our writers, sorry, our office hours where you get to ask me or other instructors questions. And we have webinars. We have a community that is amazing. So it's basically a place where you can just get the advice, the resources and the support that you need to break through all of those challenges that we all face in the in our writing journey. Awesome.

[53:12] Marissa: It is a great resource. You are a great teacher.

[53:15] Jessica: Thank you.

[53:15] Marissa: I hope people will check it out. And then lastly, where can people find you?

[53:20] Jessica: Jessica I am on the things so writingmastery.com is my writing school. Jessicabrody.com is my author website so you can find me there and social media. I'm on Instagram esicabrody, Twitter xicabrody and I'm on YouTube essicabrodie one awesome.

[53:45] Marissa: Thanks so much for joining me. It has been lovely to have you again.

[53:48] Jessica: Always a pleasure. Marissa, thanks so much for inviting me to be your outlining buddy readers.

[53:54] Marissa: I hope that was helpful for you no matter where you are on the plotter pants or spectrum. And we hope that you will check out save the cat writes a novel and save the cat writes a young adult novel. They truly are my go to sources for outlining. We encourage you to support your local indie bookstore, but you can also check out our affiliate store that is located@bookshop.org shop. Marissa Meyer next week I'll be chatting with Tessa Grattan and Justina Ireland about their high fantasy duology, chaos and flame and its sequel, Blood and Fury. Please don't forget to leave us a rating or review on your favorite podcast app and check out our merchandise on Etsy, Instagram and teepublic. Please be sure to follow us on Instagram. Happywriterpodcast until next time, stay inspired, keep writing, and whatever life throws at you today. I do hope that now you're feeling a little bit happier.