Owning Your Writing Career with Tomi Adeyemi - Children of Anguish and Anarchy - The Legacy of Orisha

Marissa chats with award-winning author of CHILDREN OF BLOOD AND BONE, Tomi Adeyemi, about her new third book in the Legacy of Orisha series, CHILDREN OF ANGUISH AND ANARCHY. Also discussed in this episode: the inspiration for Tomi creating The Writer’s Roadmap courses for writers, feeling like you’re finally a career writer, transitioning from a long-term series to something new, the struggle to take breaks when so many ideas are in your brain, imposter syndrome, movie production updates, and so much more!

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Transcript

[00:10] Marissa: Hello. Hello, and welcome to the happy writer. This is a podcast that aims to bring readers more books to enjoy and to help authors find more joy in their writing. I am your host, Marissa Meyer. Thank you for being here today. What is making me happy this week, this month, this year, this lifetime is in a couple of days. I am heading to Europe. I know, I know. It's like, say that and try not to sound smug about it. I actually, by the time this episode goes live, I will be in Europe. And I'm so excited. We're going to England, France, Belgium, and the Netherlands. If you happen to live in the Netherlands, you can come see me at Yaltaval in Eindhoven at the end of June. Tickets are available online. And then the other really fun part of this trip when we are in France, it is my very first Trova trip in which I am going to be gallivanting around Paris with a group of 30 readers, fans, podcast listeners. I cannot wait. We've been chatting online. It is such a fun group of people. I've been looking forward to it for a year, and it's finally here. So if you are just hearing about this for the very first time, I am already planning a second Trova trip for the summer of 2025. So if you're like, hey, I want to go to Europe with Marissa and hang out and, like, hint, we're going to see castles. Spoiler alert. You can find out more details about how to join in that trip on my instagram profile. But for now, France, Europe. So, so excited. I am also, of course, so happy to be talking to today's guest. She's been named one of Time magazine's 100 most influential people and one of Forbes 30 under 30. She is also the Hugo and Nebula award winning author of Children of Blood and Bone and its sequel, Children of Virtue and Vengeance. The trilogy's finale, Children of Anguish and anarchy, comes out tomorrow on June 25. Please welcome Tomi Adeyemi.

[02:25] Tomi: Hi, Marissa. Hi. Happy writer podcast. Thank you guys so much for having me.

[02:31] Marissa: Thank you for being here. I adore you. I adore your books.

[02:36] Tomi: Thanks.

[02:36] Marissa: This is such a joy. And we kind of talked about this briefly before we started recording, but we've, like, it's been so long since we've seen each other since the pandemic hit. I just feel like I'm so happy to be talking to you today. I know.

[02:51] Tomi: I'm also so, like, inspired because it's like, it's, it's so beautiful to me that this is what you started in March or, like, or March of 2020 or at least in 2020 if I'm already misremembering month, because it's like, that was the month that I started my online writing masterclass. Oh, it was like. And it's so funny because it's like a joy for me is getting to connect with the writer. Like, we both have such interesting stories to publication. We both have intense stories to publication. What are your astrological signs? I know this is not my interview.

[03:28] Marissa: You have to know this is my favorite thing you've ever asked me. I'm a Pisces. What are you?

[03:32] Tomi: Oh, my goodness. Okay, so I am a Leo, but I'm like. Because I'm like, we both.

[03:37] Marissa: We both.

[03:38] Tomi: It's not surreal, but it is a little bit surreal. I know I'm saying 18 things at once, and, like, fortunately or unfortunately, that's where my mind is today. So I'm just gonna let them all come out. But it's like, I. I'm here with you now. I've been in and out of the McMillian offices, like, in New York City, like, twice. So I've been there. I've seen art. They have this shelf, and on this shelf, it's you and it's me, and it's like Leigh Bardugo, and we're right next to each other. And because I still remember the. I don't know, maybe she was, like, the 20 year old version of myself. And so she was reading about you and, like, your journey with nanowrimo and how you just, you just pump out these books. So I was always like, oh, this is, like, an intense, like, she just does it. And so it's just like, it's. I'm just finding so many beautiful synchronicities and parallels, and I am. I'm so happy to be speaking with you, but I also feel, like, genuinely honored to be speaking with you. And so thank you so much for. For creating this space and having me on this podcast. Like, I. Again, I feel genuinely honored and really touched. And it's just. I think it's striking me how. Oh, damn. I'm getting emotional. Sorry for cursing. I wasn't expecting this. I know. I'm like, why are you already crying? But it's just, like, it's just striking me how beautiful it is.

[05:03] Marissa: I love it. Honestly, Tony, the feeling is so genuine. And I have loved seeing your just, like, meteoric rise because we were, like, I was there so early right after the first book came out and we were on tour or it wasn't on tour. What were we doing? Was it a tour or was it like a festival?

[05:25] Tomi: Max sort of, like, put us together on a mini. It was like a mini tour or something.

[05:30] Marissa: Yeah. I can't remember where we were now, but I remember being in the vehicle, driving to the event, and bonding over how hot guys in glasses are.

[05:42] Tomi: Oh, my God, I love that, because.

[05:45] Marissa: This is what riders actually talk about on.

[05:47] Tomi: Yes. Yes. Bill aggravates.

[05:52] Marissa: I'm so happy for you. I'm so excited to talk, talk to you, talk about the book, the series. Before, though, you briefly mentioned that at the start of the pandemic, you started an online writing masterclass, which I did not know about. So I'm super curious about that. Tell us about it. And I'm specifically curious if it was because this podcast was also an answer to the pandemic, like, this horrible thing happening, how can I stay connected? How can I bring some joy and just, like, to myself, but also maybe to other people? Was that a relevant factor for you, starting this class as well?

[06:31] Tomi: I love how you framed it as an answer to the pandemic, because I realized, I'm like, okay, Marissa is connecting with writers on this side, and your answer to the pandemic was, like, maybe on this side of the publishing line or, like, the traditional publishing line, and then your answer was like, okay, I'm connecting with writers before that line, but writers who I know can get to that line, but I just. If I zoom back a little bit, I used to in college, my senior year of college, I started blog, a writing blog where I would just blog about, like, three ways to spice up your character. Arts, or, you know, like, very, like, Pinterest graphic friendly. It was before canva. So I was like, you guys are so lucky with canva. Anyway, it was like I was. Someone told me that, like, having a blog could help you get published. And so I was, like, willing to do, like, I wanted to do things that would help me get published. I did not know that having a blog with a very large following can help you get published in the nonfiction space actually wasn't correlated with the goal that I started in mind. But what I found was a very cathartic release, because at that time, I'd been working on a book for, I think I was maybe three, three and a half years into the first book, I tried to get published before children of blood and bone. And so that was such a long process. Whereas writing a little blog post and putting it up and then seeing other writers being like, wow, this really helped me I got a lot of creative nourishment and satisfaction from that. And I also found by blogging about what I was learning while writing, I was also really processing and synthesizing the information for myself. So I'm like, okay, so this is a win win. I was like, you're becoming sharper and better as a writer, and you can see from the comments that you're helping people. So that grew into, to me, having, like, I experimented with having some online classes, and so they'd be like ten weeks or, like six weeks, and it was like all these different iterations of me trying to teach what I learned. But then children of blood and bone happened, and that was my main focus. So March 2020 hits, and I had wanted to revamp the class and really just bring it to the level of knowledge that I had now, because I'm very sensitive to. We're all writers. We're all writers. I was like, the moment you started imagining something, you're a writer. But for those who dream of being professional authors, it's like, I feel like we hear so much negativity when it comes to the industry and the publishing industry, and all anyone wants to say is like, you can't do it, and this isn't going to work in x, y, and z. But I'm like, well, I actually started looking at the people who are doing it and how they did it, and, like, you're one of those people. So I focused on that, and I kind of built this MFA for myself just through, like, reading books, attending conferences, like, maybe paying, like, $50 to pitch the first book. I was querying to an agent and getting feedback. And all of this collective experience, almost about four years, four and a half years, gave me the knowledge that allowed me to write children of blood and bone, which was my debut novel, in. In. I mean, I wrote the first draft in a month, the second draft in a month. Like, you know, I got. I went from getting 63 rejections on the book. I tried to query beforehand from literary agents to getting, like, 16 offers of representation in six days. And, like, it was the historic book. It was, like, the biggest book deal of all time and then the movie deal. So I was like, okay, I have. I actually have all the tools, and I want to share those tools. And so the class is called the Writers roadmap. It's at thewritersroadmap.net. and. But we launched in 2020. At this point, we've had. We have over 600 students. We've had, like, a couple of our students get agents I think two books were published this year, like, one from HarperCollins. I'm, like, forgetting the other publisher. So it's. There's. It's now been like this four year journey, and so now there's hundreds of students and lessons and. And just people get to go on and have basically the roadmap that I wish I had had leaving school. Because as writers, at least my. What I have found to be true in my career is like, no, it does require an investment. You have to invest in your dreams. But what that investment is and what that investment can be, I want that to be reasonable. So I'm like, you know, there were some of these conferences that were like, $700, like, just to. Just to buy the pass to the conference. But then that doesn't include airfare, where you're staying, food. And then pitching an agent is like 150 and then a query. Like, it was. I was like, I was seeing the price tag for getting some crucial information about writing go from, like, 1000 to, like, hundreds of thousands. Okay, maybe that's an exaggeration. Yes. I was like, it's just not accessible. So I was like, I just wanted a thing where it's like, hey, if you're serious about this and you really want to know how to take your idea, make it into a novel, what the publishing process is like, how to query for the career that you want to have. Like, it's just. It's all my knowledge. It's sort of like masterclass.com, but it's like I wanted to make my own thing and have full control over it. So it's like ten video lessons. Once a year, we do a mentorship program. So then I'll be with students for, like, six weeks, and we'll have a little seminar. And as they're going through the class and I do Q and A's with the entire school. So it's my. It brings me so much joy. But it wasn't until you were telling me about the journey of the happy writer that I was like, oh, that's so beautiful. Like, you both created something to connect with writers at a time when you were very disconnected. And when you talk about the joy, it's like when I get on a zoom and I see these people and I'm like, oh, my God. Hi. And I get so happy and I get so hype. And seeing their transformation, it's just like, it's. And then I always grow, especially with the mentorship program, because I do that, like, once a year. I always grow with them. So like, this year, I was doing the mentorship program. My writing process completely revamped and was amazing. So it's like I'm becoming a better writer right alongside them. So I just love, I love there is something about being with a community of writers, and it's really, for as much as I'm able to share the knowledge, like, it gives me so much joy and it gives me so much wisdom and momentum, because I know NaNowrimo was a big part of your journey, and I think there's something to, when writers are able to come together, be it online, be it in real life, and be like, hey, this thing we usually do, like, kind of alone in our rooms, we're at least we're alone in our rooms at the same exact time. You know, there's something to that union and power. So.

[13:32] Marissa: So, yeah, it can't be underestimated how much it is impactful for our well being, for our creative process, our inspiration, whether you can physically meet up with other writers at conferences, at book festivals, even just if there's a local community group, and you sit around a table and work together or bounce ideas off each other, or, like you say, if it's a virtual thing and you have your people online, or if you're all in your own little cave, but you know that other people in the world are facing the same challenges you are.

[14:10] Tomi: Yes.

[14:11] Marissa: Just changes the entire aspect of what it is you're doing. It takes away the solitude, and it makes you feel like, you know, this is a weird thing that we do, living in our imaginations, making stuff up all the time. But to know that you're not alone, it really does add a really important layer to the process.

[14:30] Tomi: It's essential. It's essential. It's essential. You can't do it without a community. And there are so many beautiful ways to find that community. But we also, as writers, tend to be introverted, but that's why we need each other.

[14:42] Marissa: Yes, we're introverted together.

[14:45] Tomi: I was like, introvert tonight, but it's so hard to get introverts to unite.

[14:48] Marissa: So, no, I love it. And also, I love your point that doing these classes has influenced your process. Cause, of course, you hear the advice that, and I don't know exactly how the phrasing goes, but when you teach something, you automatically get better at it yourself. And I think there's so much truth to that. And I know for me, whenever I have to talk about craft and, like, really stop and think, how do I make characters? How do I plot a story? What is important to me when I'm taking these steps to be aware of it, it changes things. It changes what you're doing. And you get better at it. You get better at it. The more you talk about it, the more you think about it, the more you are conscious of it. So. Absolutely.

[15:37] Tomi: That. And there's a drive and a. Oh, my gosh.

[15:40] Marissa: Yeah.

[15:41] Tomi: I listened to the same workout track, like, my. My workout music, like, changes, but right now it's this one guy yelling. And so I started to say, I was like, you know, when you listen to something again and again, subconsciously you absorb it. So I was about to be like, yeah, there is a drive and a hunger and a power that you could only find when you were alone. And I was like, no, that's not you. That's not you. And you are not on the stairmaster. There is something to the hunger, to being around people who are hungry.

[16:15] Marissa: Yeah.

[16:17] Tomi: And it's like, I'm funny. I'm always like. I was like, I'm nigerian. So I was like, we're born hungry. But it's. I'm personally finding it essential, especially at this stage in my career where I finally started using the word career. I am actually so curious, too, after I say this, I would love to know when, again, I'm like, this isn't my.

[16:40] Marissa: We might at some point talk about your books. I don't know. We'll see if we get there.

[16:44] Tomi: Yeah, we'll see. I just be curious. I would love to know when you felt like, okay, this is my career. Because I didn't have that feeling until after turning in the third book. And interesting. Now I use that word, and I, like, I accept this profession. And that's part of why I was like, okay, we're going to completely reform your writing process. But now that I'm like, in this career, I'm like. And dedicated to this career, I'm like, yes, this is where I meant to be. And sure, those signs were there, but again, it was just a coming of age where you're like, no, this is real now. This is my job. I can finally accept that. This is my job. The way I thought about jobs when I was a little kid.

[17:27] Marissa: Yeah, yeah.

[17:28] Tomi: Especially because this is a dream for so long, right? It's like a wild hamilton. I'm not throwing away my shot. Like, writing is so personal and it's so intense and it's so therapeutic and it's so healing and it's so sensitive. It's like, kind of taking off your skin or it's kind of like bringing all your nerve endings out, and it's beautiful because everyone gets to connect with it, but then all your nerve endings are out. So now you're experiencing all these other things, and it's also such a heavy labor, like, on the head and the soul. And, like, again, pulling these things out of our imagination takes years at times. So it's just like, now that I can confidently sit at this, and I'm like, yes, this is my career. This is my process. This is my thing. This is my balance. Getting to be around aspiring published authors once a year in an intensive situation where we get to learn and grow from each other, I just. I feel like I am always going to need that so that I stay connected to creativity. I have such a greater respect for the very act of creativity in this moment in time than I ever have, because, you know, we. I started creating as a child, so it's sort of a very pure thing. Then you're creating because you want it to be your profession, and then it becomes your profession, and then that's its own journey. So I think there, for so long, I was. I was living deadline to deadline, so I was focused on the end product of the creativity of the creation, and now just the very act of, like, I have an idea. Wow. That didn't exist before. Like, I'm, you know, it's not about, like.

[19:19] Marissa: Right, right.

[19:20] Tomi: Go, go, go produce.

[19:21] Marissa: Yeah.

[19:22] Tomi: Like, it is so beautiful that you even sit there and put 14 words on a page. Wow.

[19:28] Marissa: Yeah.

[19:28] Tomi: You know, so.

[19:29] Marissa: Well, I'll be curious to hear kind of what. What you're seeing for your next step, because there is something so magical about finishing a series and a project that you've been working on for a really long time. Yes, of course. And it's a roller coaster. There's. There's great writing days, there's bad writing days. There's, you know, really fun promotion, and there's really headachy promotion.

[19:53] Tomi: And it is journey, that fun promotion.

[19:56] Marissa: Yeah. Right. I hope so.

[19:58] Tomi: I just get to talk to verisubeyer. This is awesome.

[20:00] Marissa: I'm so glad you feel that way. But, I mean, to be in a one world, hanging out with these same characters for so long, and then to kind of come out of that and think, now what? You know, what's going to be. Now what do I do? And I know for me, finishing up the Lunar Chronicles, which was the six to eight years of my life, and.

[20:25] Tomi: Then suddenly, wow, okay, so we're the same eight years. Yeah, sorry. Right, right.

[20:31] Marissa: Well, no, it takes forever. It took forever. And then. And then.

[20:35] Tomi: Yeah.

[20:35] Marissa: To think, okay, now I'm going to write another series or another book. And to feel like I had no idea how to do that, to be back at square one again, to have to. I need to create all new characters. I need to create an entirely new world. And, like, I really. I very distinctly remember having this moment of, like, I. I don't know how to do that. I've completely forgotten how I started writing this series. So is that, like, are you there right now, or are you already kind of neck deep into the next thing?

[21:05] Tomi: So I actually finished my fourth book two days ago.

[21:10] Marissa: Congratulations.

[21:13] Tomi: And I'm going to shout out my writer's roadmap people right now, because, like, when I really say, we started the mentorship program in January, and a big part of it was, like, the writing routine, because something that was so important to me was like, hey, this is your career now. You know what's sexy to us now? Margaret Atwood. Like, I was like, you know what's sexy? Like imagining myself 80 with a cup of tea, good posture, and then a bunch of books that I wrote. And so I was like, how do we get to that? How do we calmly get to that? What is sexy now? And it's like, because before, what was sex? I was like, we had Naruto energy. We're like. Like, it was just. It's all fired. I was like, no, no, no. We need some of that. I'm a calm. I think Margaret Atwood is canadian, but in my head, I'm like, I'm a calm british lady. I am a calm british lady. So I really. We worked on that together. So this book, it's funny. 10% of my stories kind of usually start in the intense moment of inspiration where it's like, it hits me and I can't stop. And then 90% happens, like, in this type, in this new work, in the routine. So it really. The 90% was written this year, and then I finished the second draft. So now I've sent that off to my team, and I feel so good because I really wanted. I describe it to someone as, like, if you're in the gym and I don't know what it's called, I should probably learn what it's called. But that kind of cart or rack where you put weights on it, and then you just have to push it across the room, like, back and forth. That's what writing feels like for me, mentally and physically and emotionally. Even if it's beautiful, it just is like, it is really such an exertion. And I really wanted this book to be done before book three because now I was like, wow, there's nothing. You haven't had nothing on your mind for, I don't know, almost ten years. So I wake up, it's only been two days, but I'm like, oh, my God, is this why Matthew McConaughey is always, like, just being like, all right, all right, all right. Like what? Like, just. I'm just here. Like, I'm like, I like a bird. I'm like, this is great. So I. It was intense, and it was a personal deadline, so I wasn't on publishers deadline, but I was. It was really important to me to finish this and get this off my soul and my spirit, and. And that's happened. So now I'm actually like, oh, I'm chilling, chilling, chilling, because there's nothing. There's nothing I have to push out of my spirit. It doesn't mean I won't be creating or I'm collaborating with the director for the Children of Blood and Bone movie and executive producing. And so it's like, there's still things happening, but those things are not the pushing that big, heavy cart across the room and then across the room again and then across the room again and then finishing the draft and be like, okay, now to make it pretty. So that's where I am now. But it's been the trilogy that was. And I turned in children of blood and bone, like, last summer. So. So, yeah, they were like, you should be free. You should just be chill.

[24:45] Marissa: And I was like, yeah, no, that's funny. I had a period. Let me think. That must have been last. That was last year where I was ahead by a book. And so my, like, you should take the year off. Like, we could have this one come out in 24, and we'll have the next one out in 25, and, like, you can take some time. And I ended up writing four books last year. Like, I had no deadlines, and it was the most productive year of my career. And I.

[25:12] Tomi: There is something about not being, like, deadlines. I'm like, okay, I get why they exist because I'm like, okay, very motivating.

[25:19] Marissa: But sometimes to just write, because you know what? I feel like writing today. And it's funny story that I'm excited to tell, also. Very motivating.

[25:29] Tomi: That's incredible. I love that.

[25:32] Marissa: Well, and I love that you are in this downtime. I have such a love hate relationship with those in between moments because I'm such a workaholic. My brain is always like, I need to be making, you know, forward progress on whatever the next book is, whatever the next story is. But I know logically and creatively that those, those break periods where we can kind of refill the. Well, recharge the battery, whatever analogy a person wants to use. Like, they are just as important as the actual fingers on the keyboard moments. Um, and it's really important to take that time and to let yourself just chill for a little bit and wait for the ideas to regenerate.

[26:19] Tomi: Yes. And it's like I'm in an interesting place story wise, because I feel like what I've learned about myself as a writer through publishing, like, children of blood and bone and children of virtue and vengeance, and literally tomorrow, children of anguish and anarchy, I've learned, like, hey, your process with this story, if you have an idea, you are likely going to spend seven years with that idea, because you're not just into the book, you're into the adaptation. And, and that's a big part of my storytelling process, my creative spirit or my creative DNA. It's like, I see when I saw children, when children are blood and bone. When I saw it, I saw it as a movie. Like, I saw the movie in my head, and then I tried to translate that movie through a book, this fourth book, this new book, and a new world. And I did have that moment of like, oh, how am I going to do this? Like, I've spent so much time. And then this explosion hit me, like, two years ago, and I was like, oh, my gosh, this is inside of me. I have to get this out. And then I was in love, and I was like, oh, my God, I'm cheating on my characters. And so I was like, let's finish this now. I'm just like, I see as a television series. And so I'm like, I see the television. I see. I'm watching it in my head, and then I'm writing the book. And so it's there because I'm so intertwined with the adaptation process, and it's sort of like a complete. I keep hearing symphony. I wanted to say feast, but I kept hearing symphony. It's like a symphony. And I'm like, well, here's the violin, and here's the cello, but wait till you hear the electric guitar. And then the drums are going to go. So I put this out, and I'm like, okay, get ready to be with this for seven years, because it's like, I know what I want to write next. But I'm like, hey, we're not pushing that weight for a minute. And so it's like, I have these tomes, like, literally inside me, and so the children of blood and bone, those three books, that feels like one tome that was inside me, and now it's out. And then this was a tome that was inside me, and now it's out, and, like, oh, yeah, it's a good feeling.

[28:30] Marissa: It's a good feeling when they get out.

[28:32] Tomi: Yeah. I find it's difficult for me to. Like what you said about those breaks. I am not good about them because I. Well, because I feel like I can take a break now because they're out. Yeah, but when they're in.

[28:48] Marissa: But we know there's so many more. Like, this is my struggle, is that it feels great to finish a book and to send it out into the world, but I have so many more in me, and so I always have this. How does that work?

[29:01] Tomi: Like, how is your.

[29:03] Marissa: Where is there.

[29:04] Tomi: Is there, like, one place that your stories come from? Or, like, do you have a list of all the stories that are, like, in you? Because I'm like, that sounds very. Yeah, okay. Yeah, I'm like, that sounds. Living with a. Like, living in a. Bees. A bumblebee hive. I don't know why I can.

[29:20] Marissa: It feels so much like that. No, truly, it does. It feels like all of these stories are in my head, constantly crashing into each other, and it can be so difficult to be like, okay, you're the next one. When there's eight more that are like, but. But why not me right now? You could also write me. I could also do this. And I think that's why I struggle, personally, to take those breaks, because there's this ticking clock hanging over me.

[29:43] Tomi: Like, there's more.

[29:48] Marissa: I'm sorry, what was that?

[29:50] Tomi: Do more bees. Also, like, I'm a. I'm sort of. I would imagine that, like, you have all these bees in the nest, and each bee is a story, but then newbies, like, fly into the nest, and then they're also buzzing around while you're working on it. Wow. Yeah, that's. That's really difficult.

[30:07] Marissa: It is so hard. That's probably the hardest thing.

[30:12] Tomi: It's beautiful, but it's, like, grateful for that.

[30:16] Marissa: You know, I know writers who finish a book and then go a year or two without any new ideas, and, you know, your process is your process. But for me, like, I love having so many things in the pipeline that I'm legitimately excited for at any given time.

[30:33] Tomi: I'm inspired by, like, wow, how has your writing process changed? Like, do you have a fixed writing process? Like, no.

[30:41] Marissa: I mean, there are things that stay the same. I always brainstorm and research. I always outline. I try to do the fastest first draft that I can, but sometimes that's two weeks. Sometimes that's four months. I mean, how long that processes really changes. And then revisions are. You know, it's a mixed bag. Sometimes you revise once, and you're like, cool. That was easy. And then sometimes you revise and rewrite and then revise some more and then still aren't happy with it, and so you just know what they're gonna be.

[31:15] Tomi: Okay. That's fascinating to me.

[31:18] Marissa: Yeah. But then also, like, the day to day schedule changes. And this is. I've learned that life just has phases. Like, when I was first writing and I worked another full time job, and so there was, like, you figure out, okay, I can write in the mornings or I can write on my lunch breaks. And then, okay, I quit that job, became a full time writer. It became my career, which was, you know, a dream come true. But then you're like, wait, how do I not just squander my days when I'm at home all the time and don't have a boss, like, watching over my shoulder? And so then, yes, there's something to.

[31:55] Tomi: When you're squeezing it in and dreaming of it all the time, and then suddenly you're doing it all the time, and you're like, why can't I do this anymore?

[32:01] Marissa: It's really.

[32:03] Tomi: What?

[32:04] Marissa: Yeah, and then I don't. You don't have kids yet? I don't think.

[32:07] Tomi: No, not yet. How many kids do you have? What are their ages?

[32:11] Marissa: We have two. We have nine year old twins. When they came along, like, that was a totally new ball. What do I do now? How do I get this done so it changes. And having to figure out when is my writing time and how to kind of keep all the balls juggling, it has to kind of stay fluid. You have to be able to adapt.

[32:35] Tomi: Yes. Yes. I love this. I'm, like, learning so much.

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Marissa: We're like, never going to talk about your book.

[35:00] Tomi: I know Caroline's going to be like, what? And I'm going to be like, here's the thing. Here's the thing. Once I got there, I had other motives.

[35:08] Marissa: So, okay, but we do, I do, I do need you to tell listeners who don't know who you are who have not heard of your books, tell them a little bit about this series. The Legacy of Orisha trilogy.

[35:20] Tomi: Yes. Okay, so the legacy of Orisha, this trilogy, it is an epic west african adventure. In the beginning, I used to pitch it as Black Panther with magic. It follows the story of a girl who's fighting to bring magic back to her people. And it's got adventure, it's got romance, it's got battles, it's got magical giant lions that she rides like. It is a really, really big epic adventure. And another exciting thing is Paramount is turning it into a movie with Gina Prince Bythewood, the director of the woman king, directing. So it's, you know, it's like the third book comes out tomorrow and the trilogy is complete, but then it's moving to your screens. And I know for me, I am always the one where it's like I devour the series as soon as I see the trailer or hear? It's like, I have to know what happens now. So that is it in a nutshell. A little elevator pitch. And the final book in the trilogy is children of anguish and anarchy. And no spoilers. I won't give any spoilers, but, yeah, it's just this last epic installment in this. I'm staring at the COVID right now, and it's really beautiful. And, like, Zali's just looking into my soul. It is. I think it's an explosion of story and emotion. It's an EDM festival in my head, like, all the songs where the bass is like, do. And you're like, when's he gonna drop? When's he gonna drop? When's it gonna drop? And then it goes higher, and then you're like, when's it gonna drop?

[36:59] Marissa: And then it goes higher.

[37:00] Tomi: Like, that's how I composed this one. In my head, I was like, this is a symphony. And every time you think the bass is about to drop, it's just gonna get a little bit crazier. We drop it, and then it goes.

[37:13] Marissa: And that's why everyone is so excited for the third book to be out.

[37:20] Tomi: I'm really excited.

[37:22] Marissa: Of course, we could talk craft, because there's so much in these books that I love. But one thing I'm actually really curious about, especially as we've been talking, because early, early on, you talked about writing these blog posts, doing these early classes for writing, all about writing, which, if I understand correctly, you were doing that before the first book came out, before you were actually published. Is that accurate? Okay.

[37:49] Tomi: Yes.

[37:50] Marissa: So then you were doing those. We're not yet a published author. Then you have these books come out. They're doing enormously successfully. It's not proper English, but you know what I'm saying.

[38:00] Tomi: Yeah, I know what you're saying.

[38:03] Marissa: And then at some point here, now, years into this process, now, you're like, wait, this is actually a career? And I'm going to accept that, and I'm going to claim that, yes, I want to talk to you about imposter syndrome.

[38:20] Tomi: Yep.

[38:21] Marissa: Because these two things do not seem like they go together. Like, generally, early, before someone is published, a person would be like, well, I want to be a writer, but I don't know enough yet to teach it.

[38:36] Tomi: Yes.

[38:37] Marissa: And then when they get successful, then they would be like, oh, yes, this is my career. I'm doing so well. And I say that tongue in cheek because I know that that's not actually how it works for most of us. But talk to me about imposter. Syndrome. And what has your experience with it been?

[38:52] Tomi: I absolutely adore this question. I adore this question. It's so funny because I did, when I was teaching writing without having a book deal, I was like, or being a published author, there was this sense of, like, why would anybody listen to me? But that was because it's like, I don't have anything to show. It's like, I have over thousands of pages, and I've never been able to finish a book since the first book I wrote when I was a child, which is a banger, but still, it's like, why? Why would someone listen to me? Why would someone pay for me to teach them about plot? On the other hand, I was like, but I am learning things, and I like to talk to people a lot in life about the 10,000 hours rule. I think it takes 10,000 hours to become a master at something. It takes 20,000 hours to become a legend. I was like, okay, you might not know my name, but I was like, girl has been doing this since she was, like, eight years old even. I got my book deal. I mean, we both got book deals at an age that's considered young. But, like, what I tell people is, I was like, yeah, but at that point, I'd already been writing for 15 years, right?

[40:03] Marissa: Yeah.

[40:04] Tomi: And I would say that because I'm like, yes, it is a very sexy headline to be like, 23 year old offered scores biggest book deal of all time. It's not as sexy to be like someone who's been writing for 15 years and studied very intensely at this and made a ten year excel sheet plan and failed, technically, failed for five years before this book deal. And it's not. That's not a sexy headline. Okay? That's not clickbait. That's not going to get anyone there. But I'm like, yeah, when you see Simone Biles killing it. But I was like, but she started at 13 and. And she actually, I remember, had a period where she was really struggling as a kid. So I think, you know, ours is a lot of it's marketing, but our society is designed to make people feel like it's too late or it's too this or it's this. And. And you have to achieve all your dreams at 20. And. And I say that as someone who believed that, too. So I'm talking with empathy for that, like, syndrome and acknowledgement of the like, hey, you can start at any time. And the thing is, the funny thing is the girl, I actually have a video recording of like, the first, like, plot boot camp I ever led. And when I see it, I'm like, oh, my gosh, this girl, she's like, okay. She's checking the sound, having problems with the slides, and she's like, awesome. I'm glad you guys are here. And I'm like, you are too cute. And I'm like, guess what? You were a number one best selling author. You were like, you sold a million copies. You've been in 35 countries. You have a giant movie. I'm like, the quantum physics of it all, that everything everywhere all at once, the arrival of it all. I'm like, that girl was that. It's like the Lady Gaga thing. She goes, I was always famous. Like, as she's performing in front of Ikea, and I was just listening to shallows or from the shallows. And. And so it is. It is this. Like, I knew I knew things and I knew I could help people, but I was a little shy about it. And then you get this book deal and this, and I felt a lot of internal pressure in the beginning. It was internal pressure because I'm a type a. I'm a perfectionist, definitely. I would say a reformed workaholic. Like, very recently reformed. I felt very much like, not only is this a once in a lifetime kind of opportunity, but this is a story. I was like, you don't. You can't look at any. You don't. There's no one who looks like you, who's ever done this, who's telling stories about people like this. Like, the platform you have, the. I was like, you can't, like, f up. You can't screw this up. You have to do your absolute best. And it was to the point where it's like, I was only satisfied. I only stopped beating myself up for children of blood and bone maybe, like a year ago or maybe a year ago. And what I mean by that is, like, at this point, I had it. Like, it sold over a million copies. Hugo Nebula. I was still like, I could have done more. I could have done better. That was the narrative in my head. I didn't do good enough.

[43:06] Marissa: Yeah. So I asked, because anybody who's looking at the. The dates, the publication schedule, your million plus fans who have been.

[43:15] Tomi: Yes.

[43:16] Marissa: Not so patiently tapping their fingers like there was a long period in between. And. Okay, so book one came out. Was it 2018? Yes, 2019 for book two. And here we are five years later. Is part of the reason there because of those internal pressures?

[43:34] Tomi: I think it would. I would honestly say, I think that's part of it. I think, like, this is something. If fans don't know it, they're kind of gonna know it because I'm going on tour. Something people don't know is like, I got really sick between book two and book three.

[43:50] Marissa: I didn't know that, Tommy. I didn't know that.

[43:55] Tomi: People don't know.

[43:56] Marissa: But.

[43:57] Tomi: And I, like, I know why they don't know. But, like, for five of those years, like, three of them, I was very, very ill. And for the other two, it was sort of like recovering from being very ill. So it was. It was really. And in those periods, it was funny because I had to. I had an interview today and I mentioned that, and I was like. And I. And I was like, oh, I felt so. And it was so difficult because I felt so guilty, and I was like, oh, my God, tell me. Listen to you. You're not even about the difficulty of being ill. You're talking about it being difficult because you felt so guilty for your readers and for your fans and wanting them to. Like, I'm an open person and a private person. Not really going to take a selfie of me crying and post it on instagram and be like, hey, guys, I'm like, that's not really me. I think there's things you have to go through. So it's like, in a way, I really wanted to tell people and just let them know because it would also be confusing because they would see me at an event or this or this, and they'd be like, what's happening with this, this and this? And I'm like, oh, believe me, it's happening. And there was also the movie, too. So it's like, I became one of the writers for the adaptation in the movie script. So there was so much. The schedule was crazy, and I just got very sick. I think. I personally think the wear and tear that I put myself through for a couple years, and honestly, I see it a lot in our industry. I feel like I see these big medical. Just these big medical issues, and I remember being like, I'm really hoping to avoid this. And then I got hit really hard. So part of the break was what? Or part of the gap. The gap for my readers is that I was like, life actually happened, and I had to be alive and I had to heal and I had to get healthy so that I'm trying to catch myself. Cause what I was going to say is like, so that I could finish this series. And I'm like, I think so that you could be alive. And then create. You know, I'm like, I'm sure that's what a medical professional.

[46:06] Marissa: Mutually exclusive. Right?

[46:08] Tomi: It's. It was a lot. So. So dealing with that, like, I. Something I'm also, like, trying to. Well, some people know, but something I'm also trying to explain to readers is, like, even though this is a trilogy, it's. Every book is kind of like. I'm like, it's the closest parallel I can think of is, like, a Taylor Swift album because it's like I go through something in my life, and then that. That is in the book. That is the beating book. So it's sort of clear what that was for children of blood and bone, where it was something very different for children of virtue and vengeance, and then it was something very different for children of anguish and anarchy because I was going through such an intense battle off the page, and it really took my community to lift me up and be there for me now, to be here, to be so healthy, to be done, to have, like, just finished my fourth book. Like, after all that, it was like. I'm like, oh, you're really new, and you've been transformed not just through the process of writing this trilogy, but being alive. And I think that's another reason where it's like, now, after I finished this book, I was like, okay, this is my career. And a career feels so much different than this is the biggest dream of a lifetime. This is the Hamilton one shot that I'm not throwing away. This is everything to me. It's like, it's. I'm like, no, this is my job. I'm going to sit and show up at my job and. Yeah, and takes away some of the.

[47:48] Marissa: Pressure and that feeling like you have to just keep racing against time all the time. You know that you can experience that.

[47:56] Tomi: Lunar Chronicles.

[47:58] Marissa: I'm sorry.

[47:59] Tomi: Did you ever experience that with the lunar Chronicles? Just like, that, that race against time? Because that is definitely what it felt like for, like, the first half, basically, until I got sick and I couldn't race against time. It was like, yeah, that's what it felt like every day.

[48:14] Marissa: I didn't experience anything like that. But I did end up needing an extra year for winter, the final book. And I definitely remember having that guilt of, like, I told people it was going to be out in 2014 originally, and then I needed more time to write it. And in hindsight, like, there's no reason to feel guilty. Readers want the best book you can write. There's no point.

[48:40] Tomi: They actually care about us.

[48:42] Marissa: They do. They truly do. No. Readers are lovely, wonderful human beings, and they get it. If you need to take more time, they do get it. But it's also hard because you do feel like you have a responsibility and you don't want to let people down. But ultimately, you are trying to write the best book that you can, and you cannot do that without taking care of yourself. Physically, emotionally, spiritually. It all works together.

[49:13] Tomi: Absolutely. Absolutely.

[49:15] Marissa: All right, tomi, we are almost out of time.

[49:18] Tomi: I could talk to you for 4 hours.

[49:21] Marissa: No, literally. You should see the questions that I had, and I think we maybe got to like one of them. We'll have to have you back. Okay.

[49:30] Tomi: I would love to. Absolutely love to. Okay.

[49:32] Marissa: Before I move on to our bonus round, though, people will be so mad if I don't ask, what is the status of the movie? Does it have a release date? Where are you in the process?

[49:43] Tomi: Okay, so they're. Where I am in the process is there are so many exciting updates that I am not allowed to say.

[49:52] Marissa: I know how that is. I also am in the middle of movies. I've been like, what?

[49:57] Tomi: And I'm like, I am. And I was joking with someone. I was like, you know how Tom Holland was, like, the problem child of Marvel, where he was always being like, yeah. Well, then in endgame, when you die, and, like. And so, like, I'm working so hard to not be the problem child of this, like, franchise and production for Parabout because I just want to scream and squeal from the rooftops, and people are like, who's your dream cast? I was like, I can't answer things like that anymore because the reality. And I'm like, I don't even know if I can say that. Okay, so it's just like, what I can say is the last version of this script made me sob, ugly sob. And it became my favorite movie ever. And that is just from the script stage and the talent that is gathering and, like, signing on and coming on board in this film, both in front of the camera and behind the camera. It's. I was, like, breathtaking, astounding. Like, it's. It's incredible. It's absolutely incredible. And I am so. I don't even. I don't even really have the words. And you've seen me. I've been word mom at this, like, entire interview. But it's like. I guess it's like, if I can't tell you the specifics yet, I just want to convey that, like, we are in an incredible place.

[51:24] Marissa: I love it. I am so excited. You know, I'll be seeing it in theaters when it comes out.

[51:30] Tomi: I should on the podcast. Okay.

[51:33] Marissa: What?

[51:34] Tomi: I was like, I should come back on the podcast.

[51:36] Marissa: That would be epic. I would love that.

[51:38] Tomi: Yes. I love that.

[51:40] Marissa: All right, Toby, thank you so much and congratulations. I'm so happy for you. Are you ready for our bonus round?

[51:47] Tomi: I'm ready for the bonus round. All right.

[51:49] Marissa: What book makes you happy?

[51:51] Tomi: I know this is a speed round. It's not a book, but it is a book. And the book is Subba to hear.

[51:59] Marissa: Human being.

[52:01] Tomi: Yeah. I'm like, that is my book.

[52:04] Marissa: I love that. I accept that answer.

[52:06] Tomi: Thank you.

[52:09] Marissa: Where can a person buy this? Sabati here. All right. We already kind of talked about this a little bit, so I usually ask, what are you working on next? You talked about book four. Is there anything you can tell us about it? Any hints about what it's about?

[52:26] Tomi: It takes place in this world. It's my first time not writing a fantasy. Yes, I did.

[52:36] Marissa: Lastly, where can people find you?

[52:38] Tomi: Love it. You can find me on Instagram, omiariemi. You can find me on TikTok, Omiariemi. You can technically find me on all the other social media platforms have that same name, but I'm much more personal, I would say, on TikTok and Instagram. And then you can also generally find out about me@tomyadmi.com. but, yeah, that's if you want to stay up to date, learn things, I would refer you to Instagram and TikTok.

[53:11] Marissa: Awesome. Tomi, it has been such a delight to get to chat with you after all these years. Thank you so much.

[53:16] Tomi: I know. Thank you. Marissa, this has been so wonderful. Thank you so much.

[53:22] Marissa: Readers, I hope you will check out the finale to this epic trilogy, children of anguish and anarchy. It is on shelves tomorrow. Of course, we encourage you to support your local indie bookstore if you can. If you don't have a local indie, you can check out our affiliate store@bookshop.org. shop. Marissa Meyer. We are going to be on break for the next two weeks due to the official trip to Europe, but we will be back later in July with more books, craft talk and joy. In the meantime, please follow us on Instagram. Happy writerpodcast and don't forget to leave a review on your favorite podcast app. Until next time, stay inspired, keep writing, and whatever light throws at you today. I hope that now you're feeling a little bit happier.