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Native Yoga Toddcast
It’s challenging to learn about yoga when there is so much information conveyed in a language that often seems foreign. Join veteran yoga teacher and massage therapist, Todd McLaughlin, as he engages weekly with professionals in the field of yoga and bodywork through knowledgable and relatable conversation. If you want to deepen your understanding of yoga and bodywork practices, don’t miss an episode!
Native Yoga Toddcast
Cory Sterling - Busting Myths in the Yoga Business World
Visit Cory on his website: https://www.consciouscounsel.ca/Home
Watch this episode on YouTube: https://youtu.be/sRsahBZoBwQ
Key Takeaways:
- A waiver of liability is crucial for any yoga teacher to protect themselves legally in their relationships with students.
- Professionalism and legal knowledge are imperative in the wellness industry, just as in any other business.
- The distinction between independent contractors and employees is complex and essential to understand for studio owners and yoga teachers alike.
- Legal issues such as trademark registration, client service agreements, and social media disclaimers are key considerations for yoga professionals operating both in-person and online.
- Cory's approach to law in the wellness industry encourages other lawyers to embrace remote work while providing legal services with heart and professionalism.
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LinkedIn: Todd McLaughlin
Welcome to Native Yoga Toddcast. So happy you are here. My goal with this channel is to bring inspirational speakers to the mic in the field of yoga, massage bodywork and beyond. Follow us @nativeyoga and check us out at nativeyogacenter.com. All right, let's begin. Hello, and welcome to Native Yoga Toddcast. Are you a yoga practitioner? Are you yoga teacher? Are you a massage therapist? Are you someone that enjoys going to yoga studios or massage therapy studios or wellness centers? You have to listen to this because my guest Cory Sterling, is the founder of the heart leading law firm called Conscious Counsel. He's written a book called The Yoga Law Book. He has a website called www.consciouscounsel.ca. He is a lawyer who helps the yoga and wellness industry navigate the complexities and intricacies and challenges of the business law world. I learned so much from speaking to Cory, he has such an incredible enthusiasm and optimism. And I mean, when you listen to this, you can tell he's pretty happy. Like, you know how you can just you can hear it, you can tell he's traveling the world. He's living wherever he wants to. He's living wherever he wants, and he's working from wherever he is. And he has a lot of great information. And he's bringing the yoga and wellness industry up. He's pushing us up you guys. So thank you so much, Cory is really was enjoyable. I fully love this conversation. So I hope you guys enjoy. If you have any questions or concerns or comments, send them my way at info@nativeyogacenter. Of course, you can reach out to Cory if you have any challenges in your own professionalism, that you need assistance, reach out to him. This is what he's here for. I think that's about it. Thanks again for your support. It means the world and let's start. I'm thrilled to have the chance to speak with Cory Sterling. Cory, thank you so much for joining me. You're in Mexico? I'm in Mexico. This is the first time I've ever recorded a podcast in Mexico. It's also the first time I've ever recorded a Toddcast. Yeah, dude. I know. I mean, my wife Tamara, when I said I was going to start a podcast. She said, Well, you gotta call it Toddcast and I had never heard that. And I was like, oh, then I went online really quick and started Googling, like, has anybody done this is anybody. And I am not the first. But there's not a whole lot of us, Todd people doing podcasts. So you know, it's not I don't think it's over overly saturated. So thank you so much. I really appreciate this opportunity. I'm excited to ask you questions about your profession, your engagement in coaching. People that are in that have yoga studios or yoga teachers, or anybody in the wellness space about what we need to know about the law, because you're a lawyer. Can you tell me a little bit about your journey with your own personal yoga practice and how you became a lawyer? Yeah, I definitely can't. Well, firstly, I don't know what the other podcasts are out there. But I just want you to know I'm giving you my exclusivity. You're the only podcast I'll ever do right now in my life. So I don't care what else I don't care what other Todd's are doing out there. Thank you. Thank you for thank you for having me, man. You're rad. I listened to a couple of episodes before I hopped on and I really liked it. So I appreciate the opportunity to chat with you can my own my own yoga practice is evolving, constantly evolving. I think like most I think most yoga teachers or practitioners would say, and my My story started when I was working at a big law firm. And I was not necessarily fulfilled or and I didn't feel aligned with the work that I was doing as a lawyer. And in my spare time, I was just always chilling at the yoga studio at the time I was in Vancouver, British Columbia at the studios one Yoga, and my teacher Reno was there and my friends were there and it'd be like the office or the yoga studio or playing sports. And yeah, and then I sort of just got into it more and more and more and more. And I think my spirituality grew, I went to India, I lived in an ashram, I did a teacher training that I went to Sri Lanka, I did have upasana. And those sort of like were like, the foundational blocks that set me up sort of on a on a life journey of just being a yoga practitioner, and, and a professional and what I really noticed, to be honest, like, I just got along well, with everyone who I encountered in the yoga industry, I lived in Canada. When I lived in Canada, I also started a yoga festival, called Muskoka yoga festival. So like, there are a lot of years like were like, everything I was doing was yoga was my life. And what's interesting is like my personal practice, my asana practice, at least, wasn't so strong during that period. But since I've sort of like stepped back from from that, I've, it's always changing. Now, I'm like, in a yin phase, where I was just in Bali, I did a yoga teacher training. And I have my own yoga practice that I do. So sorry, it's not a it's not like a direct line. It's not like, Oh, this is exactly how my practice is. It's always sort of come and gone. But it's always been there. And I think what's beautiful about it is that it's always changing. And then, as a lawyer, I just decided, okay, if I'm building a law practice, I want to work with people who I get along with who I respect, who I can support what they're doing, and feel like I'm making a positive impact in my, with my skill set in that particular way. Nice. That's so cool. Man. I was really excited when I found you, because I think a lot of us as yoga teachers and or studio owners have different feelings about how we should approach the law in our business dealings. And so I have a ton of questions for you. First of all, I'm curious. Did you graduate from law school in Vancouver? No, I went to law. I graduated law school in Australia. Queensland. Nice. Yeah, I lived all over. So before. I mean, it's interesting, because now most of what I talk about publicly is being a lawyer. But I had so many lives before I was a lawyer living in different countries living in different continents. So yeah, so I was I was in Australia. And that's where I graduated. Very cool. Excellent. And then I know you're in Mexico now. But where is your if you have a home home location, where where's that? Home? Home is inside of my chest? All right, great answer. Yeah. All right. Well, wherever your heart is your your read at home. That said, I don't over the last seven years, I love traveling, I've always loved traveling. And when I decided to start my own law firm, the two things my two non conditionals to myself was that I would be able to go around the world and just move around wherever I wanted, whenever I wanted, and the others that I would only work with awesome people making the world a healthier place. So I don't have I don't have a home base per se. But I'm very happy. Nice. That's cool, man. Well, your website is conscious. counsel.ca. And so I'm curious how you. I mean, I think one of the big misconceptions that a lot of people have regarding lawyers is just thinking that all lawyers are sharks. And that, you know, just try to stay away from lawyers, because it's going to end up in some sort of major lawsuit. It sounds like you're trying to change that stereotype. I don't meet many lawyers that you're the first person, first lawyer I've ever met that focuses on this niche. Can you tell me what type of feedback you've received? Since you've gone down this direction of starting conscious counsel? What I've received wonderful feedback. In the sense like we, the law firm has won a bunch of awards for like health and wellness, legal awards, or like best fitness lawyers or different things like that, which is, that's really cool. What means a lot more to me, we have 375 Star Google reviews. So everyone I've worked with, has only given me a five star review our team, it's not me, the law firm. But what's what's really refreshing. And every team meeting, we always read the new reviews. And it's super important because everyone in sharing will say a lot of the things that you're talking about, like, oh, I never thought working with a lawyer could be this easy, or I feel so much more protected to grow my business now. And I just realized that lawyers able, having worked into other law firms before I started my own, I realized that like most lawyers suck, in the sense of like, there is an element missing on the intrapersonal piece. Like there's just things that they don't get, they're really really intelligent. But there is an interpersonal piece where like, they can't relate to people on a personal level or understand their business or understand what they're going through. Um, like just a quick little anecdote where I really learned this lesson. In law school, we had a practicum where you had to do client interview so they teach you okay, if you're If you're going to be in litigation, you have to interview a client, how do you go about doing it? And the story was that there was a car accident. So you had to discern information. And there was an old woman. I mean, you're playing all of these, it's you know, but there's an old woman who is like really frazzled. And, and I want and we did in groups of five. So I watched all the people in my class before me go, and everyone's just like, What was the date of the accident? What intersection were you on? And I was like, There's something weird going on here. And when I started mine, the first thing I said was, I'm like, Oh, my God, firstly, I'm so sorry that this happened? Are you doing okay? Like, is there anything that I can do to help you that we can do to help you? And I remember I got, I got a really good grade assessment, I got a good grade on the assessment. And the feedback was like, Hey, you're actually able to relate to this person. And for me, that was like a very telling experience, what a lot of unfortunately, unfortunately, a lot of what the legal industry is like, there are a lot of lawyers or they train you to think in a certain way. So it's not necessarily a lawyer's fault that maybe they're missing that piece. Yeah. But it's like you're trained to extract information and develop a case and come up with an argument and anticipate a counter argument. And I'm just like, I'm a pretty chilled out guy. And I'm just like, Yo, like, how are you? Is everything okay? Yeah. Are you fine? So it's been, it's been really well received, and we've been able to grow a lot. And I love the work that I do. That's cool. It sounds like you're I mean, you're speaking around the realm of like, emotional intelligence. Is that something that you coach other lawyers on? Is that something that you you tried to help me maybe the other lawyers that are working in your firm? Are you seeking that sort of emotional intelligence engagement before you hire them? It would be before I before I hire anyone on my team, obviously, I'd have to make sure that they have that. Yeah. So the answer is yes. And like, and I've been lucky to work with a long line of awesome lawyers who've been part of our team. And yeah, and they're all like, they're all. They're all unique in their own way. But they're very similar to me. And they say like, the one thing that we all have in common is that all of us travel. Yeah. Because I think for me, how I learned to interact with the world and respect people and respect different cultures and communicate, it's just by traveling a lot. Like you see a lot of different things. You realize your way isn't the only way? And what can I learn from this person? And how can I help this person? Yeah, very cool. What is one of the biggest mistakes you see yoga teachers make in relation to disregard of the law? It's that it's so interesting. That's such a that's a great question. And it's, it's worded in such an interesting way. Because I would say it's almost never disregard, because disregard assumes that there is knowledge, and I'm intentionally choosing to make a decision to circumvent that. Whereas it's, it's ignorant. It's mostly ignorance. It's just like, they have no, they have no idea what the repercussions of their actions are, they have no idea the intricacies the relationships they have on a legal level are. So it's, it's less disregard, it's more just like, Oh, I'm going to start teaching in the park, or I'm going to teach it in my home, or I want to do a teacher training, or I want to do this, or I'm gonna offer these different types of modalities or I'm an introduce this equipment, and not not understanding the legal ramifications when you do that. Yeah, great point. Can you give a real life example of something you've come across recently, where someone was unaware of the law? And it bit them? Yeah, wow, it happens a lot of the time, just off the top of my head. One would just be a trademark issue that I was helping one of my clients with, where they they didn't understand that they had to do a trademark search, or, you know, before trying to register their own. They didn't do the appropriate searches to see if anyone else had registered similar intellectual property. And if what they were putting out there could be misleading to the public. And in fact, it was, and then we received a cease and desist letter, and they had to rebrand their studio changed their website change everything. Yeah, like it would 15 with 15 days notice, which breaks my heart which, so that would be an example where you're just like, Oh, I love this name. I'm gonna build I'm gonna start, you know, build up, make a sign outside and produce T shirts and build my Instagram and all of this stuff without checking if it's secure. So that would be an example that just comes to mind. Yeah, good one. To waiver or not to waiver. How important waiver not even a question no question asked. Not not even know about it. Yeah, sorry. Yeah, sorry. It's also one of my favorite Shakespeare quotes too. But um, you know, the waiver of liability is the it's the quintessential foundational document as a yoga teacher because there's an invisible relationship that you have with your students that you don't see. Like it doesn't make sense because this is the truth. I would not know any of this information if I did not go to law school and spend Even a lot of lawyers don't think about this stuff. But I didn't spend seven years of my life working with more than 1000 clients, I would never think about a waiver of liability for yoga, what you have to know is when you are a teacher, and you have a student and you're leading them in activity, there's a whole set of invisible rules and laws that apply to that relationship. And so having a well drafted waiver of liability is what protects you in that relationship. And, again, it's it's not intuitive, it's not natural, so many things as an entrepreneur, like a lot of my work is and working with clients is educating them as entrepreneurs about the repercussions and the possibilities of what it means to be a wellness professional and a yoga professional. And so the answer is always to wait for 100%. You have to Yes, great, great, great advice. I'm okay. I'm a yoga teacher, I finished a teacher training. I'm really eager. I want to get started. I have the idea. I'm going to teach yoga at the local beach park, which is a county park it's it's a, it's it's part of the county. What do I do first? Is it legal to do that? Do either Is there any hoops I should jump. And at this point, I have not signed up for any sort of insurance with any sort of company. I you know, I'm just I'm so green. I'm just creating a hypothetical, you know, idea here. Yeah, I just got done training. I'm so excited. I'm going to teach I can't wait, I'm going to the cut the public park, what should I do first? Okay, the first thing that you should do is get league get a waiver of liability. And make sure that you get insurance. Make sure that make sure that the waiver of liability covers you for all the different ways that you want to practice. So on demand, if you record videos, and people watch them, in person, online, outdoors, the waivers to cover for everything. The second thing is that you get insurance. So you get insurance. And when you're getting insurance, you're on the phone with them. And you're like, hey, I want to do it at the beach and at the park and online and on demand. And we'll get people all over the world and all that sort of stuff. Like those are the first few steps in that situation, if you're just starting, the next things to think about would be getting a client service agreement. So like, What is my relationship look like, with my clients? How are they paying me? Are they paying me before? Are they do I have 10 packs? Do I five packs, what happens if my client doesn't show up? All those sorts of things. And then if you're on so you're probably gonna be on social media based on this person who, you know, this nonexistent person. And so you want to make sure that you're covered for practice, you know, for the tips that you're sharing on social media. So you'd want to get a social media disclaimer. So basically, like, if you're just starting, and you're on social media, and you're accepting money, and you're practicing, you need a waiver, social media disclaimer, and a client service agreement. And you should also have insurance, to be honest, in terms of like, getting a business license to do yoga in the park. My I have, I've worked with over 1000 clients, I've never run into that problem or that issue with clients. So I think if you're doing it on a grant commercial level, that is something to be more mindful of. But I think if it's you and a friend in a public park, and you're charging them, I don't know, 50 bucks to teach them in a class and you bring your own mats. Like I'm I'm not losing sleep over that I only. I also know, everything my legal practice is based on all of the experiences that my clients go through. So, and all of them make the same mistakes, which is, you know, why I'm happy to share this information to help people from making mistakes in the future. But business licensing is not something that comes up ever, I only have ever dealt with one issue related to that. So that doesn't mean I'm not saying that it's not a problem. I'm just saying that it's not something that I see being a problem. Yeah. One reaction I hear from this hypothetical situation. And the answer you gave is that people that are now embarking on this realize, Oh my gosh, there's so much more that I need to do that I did not even think about. And then they go either a I'm not going to do any of the things he just said, and I'm going to wing it. Or be maybe I don't want to teach yoga now because that sounds like too much work for me. I do come across that a lot. Do you see that? Oh, oh, yes, I always see that. And what's also so surprising is like, I see a lot of clients who are doing really well who still are in that in a similar position. What I'll say is as follows. One thing about leveling up as a wellness professional involves leveraging service oriented professionals in your industry. So that means having an accountant or a bookkeeper having a lawyer, if you need support with marketing or building a website. I think the biggest gap I see in my range of clients is those who do You know, sort of resign and think like, oh, this is too hard, I can't do any of this. And what I'd say is like with YouTube, and with all of the resources out there in the world, it's, you know, you can you can educate yourself on everything, but it is important to get informed on the things that that you have to do. So that's one thing. Secondly, what I'd say is like, it's not, it's never, it's never my intention that my clients or the people I work with, or speak with, want to go to law school, it's more just like, click this button, you know, invest in your business by having legal protection, all of your problems are now my problems and go off and build your business. That's all I want for my clients. I want them to go to go grow it. And just as a general comment, the one of the biggest obstacles I see is that exactly like you mentioned, there are awesome people who have done the training and are ready to go. But they're afraid to put themselves out there because they feel overwhelmed. And the only thing that I say to those people is, there's a lot of people who can help you. And they are experts in the thing that you don't know about, and they are experts in the thing that you're afraid of, and don't deprive the world of your gift, because you're not sure about what something should be done. Just find the resource of the right person to talk to great advice. Really good advice, Cory, I appreciate that. What is your thoughts? Because you are working internationally and another's different laws in every country? And one of the questions that came up during Teacher Training in the past was, is, am I allowed? Am I legally allowed to do hands on assists in a yoga class? If I'm not a licensed massage therapist here in Florida, we're in the state of Florida to charge money to put your hands on somebody requires having a license, and therefore, as a yoga teacher, am I able to go up to somebody and offer some sort of hands on assists legally? And I mean, we're for us now. I think the conversation is mostly around getting consent prior to making contact. And I feel like if, if I make eye contact with you, Cory, are you okay? If I do some hands on assist, if they're very light and gentle, and please give me some feedback, and you nod or agree. And we and I offer an assist? And gosh forbid, something unfortunate happens? You get injured in some shape, way, shape, or form? Where does all this? How does this play out? And what have you seen happen in this in this realm in relation to lawsuits? Yeah, okay. Very, very good, and very, very relevant. So let's just break it down. I'll start specifically. And what I'll say is the umbrella statement about that is, it's this is about the relationship that you have with the people who practice with you. And and when it comes to law, you always want to have written signed agreements. So that some so that there's no issue of oh, did did he do this? Was he allowed to do this? Did I make eye contact with them? Did I say yes, was right, you the whole point of legal documents is like this is one issue that really serves as a microcosm for the importance of needing signed legal agreements, so that if there's an issue you can unequivocally demonstrate now, actually, before I touch you, you understood that this was a possibility, and you agreed to it. So that's what I'll say, just generally speaking, in that particular situation in the state of Florida, I don't know that particular rule about massage therapist, but this is logically what comes to my mind. Okay, if you're receiving money to touch someone, then you you need a license for it. But in this context, you're not only touching someone, you're giving someone a yoga class for 60 minutes, and you're touching them for 12 seconds of those 60 minutes. So they're not paying you to be touched. They're paying you for the instruction of yoga, which is like, cut and dry. So for me, I don't see an issue around that. Consent is a real thing. And it has to be very, very clearly communicated. I was in a studio not long ago, where they had consent cards. So at the start of class, they said, Hey, if you if you want to grab if you want, if you're looking for adjustments, please, there's a deck of cards over there by the entrance, grab it and have flip it over to the side that said, Yes, I would like physical adjustments. So that I know that, you know, before we do that, and the waiver of liability also has to speak to that because that situation, you're saying we're God forbid I touch someone and this happens. a waiver of liability is only as good as how clearly it describes the activities that you're doing. So if I'm going to be putting my hands before I would ever touch anyone, a I would make sure that they have agreed in the waiver of liability that they're going to be touched and be they understand that by virtue of me touching them there, it is possible that there will be some form of adverse reaction. So I think that sort of answers all of the points that you would raise, but But it's serious and you have to be really careful about it. Yeah, that's really good to know. I appreciate that. That's definitely a question that we get Quite often, I'm also curious, how do I protect my online relationships? Online relationships are a little bit trickier. The first thing you need a privacy policy. And, and look, what I'll say is I'm talking about all these different nuanced things. So and I don't want it to feel overwhelming. But I'd say to anyone who's listening, like, if you have any questions, or you're looking to get this stuff at our law firm, we do packages of documents, because I get the clients just need everything. But they don't want to learn about what all the specific things are. But I will answer the question online, you need to have a privacy policy, which outlines what sort of information you collect from people and what you do with that information. So I had a studio recently that got hacked. And they all have their personal information, they had all the social security numbers, all all the credit card, everything was compromised. And then it's like Code Red, we have to figure out what's our plan of response. And the first thing we do is point to the privacy policy that we have with people that say, in the event the information is compromised. This is the part this is the process that we're going to follow. And this is who we share the information with the social media disclaimer again. And then really first, for online relationships. If you have like an online course, you should have an online course agreement, because you want to protect the intellectual property. So you want to protect whatever you're giving people access to, you want to make sure that it's either registered for copyright or registered for trademark and that there's a license so that you can revoke that license in the event they're doing something that you disagree with. And I think online, that's really that's it and then just Yeah, so that's it social media, disclaimers, privacy and trademark copyright. Man, I'm really glad I'm meeting you. Because I think I have a lot of stuff I need to do. I have some of the things in place that you're talking about not everything in place. So if I'm feeling overwhelmed, can I reach out to you and say, Cory, I just put together an online course. What are the main things I need to have in place, and then you're able to kind of point out, let's get this, this and this. And then then I'm good. So it's pretty simple. It just sounds like I need advice. Like I just need. I need someone like you who knows exactly, just to get us ready so that we're not five years down the track, backpedaling or losing out on all the work that we put in and wishing we had just done, the simple little thing could have saved us so much trouble, trouble. It's in my own entrepreneurial journey. Everything that I speak about, I learned from my relationship with my accountants, were the first couple of years, I was like, oh, like, I don't really need an accountant. I don't need some, you know, um, what am I going to pay this guy $4,000 to do to be my accountant, whatever, yeah, and then just like mistakes and not doing it properly. And then I paid five times the amount that I'd have to otherwise Yeah, then I just there was like two years in my business where all I did was have to pay taxes back because I didn't do properly at the start. And what I've learned in my relationship with my accountant is that it's not my job to figure out what has to be done. It's my job to find someone who understands me and my business, and do whatever they tell me to do. And the most simple and I tell them, I'm like you get, we have to 15 minute meetings a year. That's it, man, tell me whatever you need, I'll get my system to help, I'll get everything organized. And it's the same thing with law. It's like the expectation is, you're an amazing content creator, you're an amazing teacher, you've done all the hard work of creating the content and building the community and getting people to pay to participate in your online course, the expectation is not that you're going to know every legal nuance of how to protect yourself and all these mistakes that other people made. But your responsibility is to work with someone who does have that experience to make sure that you don't have to go down that road. Yeah, great point. Let's see where my wife and I've had our yoga studio for the last 18 years, we've had to sign multiple leases ranging from three years to five years. And it's always a fairly stressful event. Because it's back and forth. You don't know, am I getting taken advantage of I've had lawyers read over the agreements, just because you know, you know, you're signing up for a five year commitment that you cannot really get out of, unless it just so I'm curious what what type of advice do you offer? And there's a lot of advice. Let me just make this question. Really simple. What type of advice do you offer? People signing leases, getting reviewed by a professional in and I'll tell you, right? It's not because you have to think about it as this. It will be on your spreadsheet. It will be the highest cost that you have. And you're signing it for a very long time and you're giving a personal guarantee on it. Most of the time you Giving a personal guarantee. And it would really upsets me is when clients are you know, there'll be a lease, it's like a five year lease of paying 4000. Like, that's a lot of money that you need someone who knows what to look out for, before you sign that agreement, and I will agree with you leases are one of my least favorite types of documents to review, it is an inherently stressful process. And a lot of the times the landlord in that position has the leverage of power over the tenant. And, and it's the just one thing, you know, I think, if anyone takes away anything sort of from this conversation, one thing really important to know, whoever is supplying the contract that's being signed, that contract will benefit that party. So when my clients come to me, and I'm drafting a membership agreement or an online course, I'm drafting that to make the situation 100% In their benefits, so that the client who's signing it, it's, you know, doesn't benefit the client in benefits, it benefits, you know, the studio, or who's who I'm working with. Yeah, and it's the same with landlords and leases, like people think, oh, every agreement is made equally No, that that lease is built 100% To protect the landlord way more than than it protects you. So you need someone who understands it, who can look at it and support you in going through it, too. I'm so happy to have this conversation. This is amazing. I know, it can sound overwhelming. You know, like, I'm even, I'm involved in it. I have an accountant, I have a lease I have, I have all these things. I've been doing it for a long time. I feel pretty comfortable now. But even just hearing all this reminds me of like, to this stuff is heavy, there's so much to do. And I know that somebody who's just fresh out the gate, and really excited to embark on this career of either a yoga teacher, a massage therapist, or some sort of wellness center provider. Can you help give me a little pep talk now after hearing all that, that it's not that scary? It's not that it's not that scary. It's not that scary. And this is the one thing I say to all of my new clients is you've just by signing up, you've just transferred all of your headaches and your problems over to me. Yeah, there's an issue about this. For me the email, there's an issue about this for me an email, you have a question, let's hop on a call. Because the spectrum of of engagement that clients want to have when it comes to this stuff varies. Some are like, I had a call this morning. someone's like, I want to learn about all of this. I'm like, Cool, let's like I'm going for a walk on the beach, I'm gonna tell you everything that you need to know about the specifics of this relationships. I say that happens one out of every 75 times. And most of the times people are busy, they've got families, they're building something, they're super excited. And they're like, I don't really care. Just take care of it for me. And what I say to them is you're just give me your problems. I love these problems. I'm an expert, the thing I'm the best at in the world is resolving these problems and making it easy and simple. So my pep talk is how my question to you is how serious are you about building a successful business? Yeah. And you just have to realize that if you are serious about building a business and building a community and being the change that you want to see in the world and doing so from a commercial aspect, you need support. Yeah. And that's it. And don't try to do everything yourself. Wow. Great point, Cory. Next question. Contractors versus employees as a yoga studio. We have teachers that teach for us, we pay them they are independent contractors. And they I fill out a 1099 for them at the end of the year melts them they're in charge of paying their own tax. I don't have any official employees I'm aware that each state is a little different just within the United States, let alone I have no idea what happens in Mexico slash Australia slash Canada. Yeah, in terms of that, and I'm sure it's very diverse. I'm curious is this the situation well, I really liked the way that you presented the idea with the contract that whoever writes the contract up it's benefiting the person that had it written up for them it's a little more challenging for the person that's now taking that contract on assigning it in relation to contractors and and having employees can you get share any information here for either the yoga teacher that is seeking employment out of studio and also for studio owners that are wondering the best route to go when either when faced with this challenge? Tricky, tricky, tricky, tricky, Ricky. This is the independent the independent contractor employee distinction. classification is probably the most complex of the legal issues that I deal with for clients. So firstly, as you as you alluded and just you know, I'm in Mexico chilling, I'm not like I don't do retreats in Mexico, but I'm just chilling by the beach. So I have no affiliation with any Mexican businesses. And I have no intention for that. So what I can tell you is when it comes to employee contractor distinction, it's jurisdiction specific. So the state of Florida is very different from the state of California, about who can be a contractor and why the Department of Labor recently passed down a new ruling on what makes a contractor versus an employee for any of those states that are common law states and are and are not ABC test states. So that adds another layer of complexity to it. Essentially, you have to think about contractors as people who operate their own business, and you're providing a service to your business, like you're outsourcing one element of your business to them, and you're not allowed to control the way that it's done. So the best example I always give is like the woman who does the graphic designing for my business, she has her own equipment, she makes her own hours, she works with whoever she wants, there's no real tight, like, there'll be a general timeline where I'm like, Hey, can you get this to me next week, but it's not like Hey, 430, at Tuesday, you have to be here and do this design exactly the way that I tell you to do it, which is how a lot of people are raised with with with studios, misclassification, the repercussions are very, very serious. In the sense of a, it opens you to a potential audit by the IRS or the CRA, which is not fun or funny. And also a studio owners, I've had to resolve a lot of issues where they called an employee, a contractor, then they had a falling out with that worker. And then that worker basically threatens to report them saying like, hey, actually, you are treating me like an employee all along. Doesn't matter what agreement we signed, you know, now give me a, b and c, or I'm going to report you, and I'm going to do this to basically rogue rogue contractors slash employees is a big issue. When when you're looking at the on the teacher side, I think making sure that you understand your rights is important. So like non compete, plus independent contractor never go together like never, ever, ever go together. And almost in any jurisdiction, even employee and non compete is really, really difficult to enforce. And I would say if you're a teacher, and the Studio gives you an agreement, before you sign it, like do a little bit, either consult a lawyer or do a little bit of research on your own to be like, hey, is this kosher? Is this legit. And what I'd say to the individual teacher is you have way more rights than you assume. Because you probably don't know anything about the law. But the law is frequently favoring independent contractors more, and trying to make it more difficult for small businesses to have employees, excuse me to have contractors. And I'd say if you're the studio, be very, very careful, make sure you're following the space, the state specific tests, and have everything down in writing and make sure that you have a paper trail for everything that you do. Interesting, can I back up a little this way understand a so an employee the employer can tell I know that sounds I just want to try to word this right. The control control thank you that the employer can control the employee through the tasks that the employee does. So if a independent contractor is coming in, and the steps for conducting the class is a open the door be turn on the lights, see do the check in teach the class and then reverse order on the way back out? Is that a symbol of control from the studios angle is? Are you talking on a different level? The control? I mean, where does that start and stop? I mean, if I if I have an independent contractor, they agree to teach a yin yoga class, and then they rogue go on teach in a stronger today. And I say But wait, that wasn't what we agreed upon? Is this the type of control that you're talking about? Or am I getting this right? You're you're getting part of it right and like so just in the in a yoga studio example. If we just differentiate think of the front desk team. And think about the teacher. And front desk is a very classic employee job. You have to be there this time. You have to do this. We have a certain process you follow? You do a beat you have to do a B, C, D, E, F G, right. You have to do all those things. Yeah, if the person is doing the front desk, isn't open, isn't opening the door isn't greeting the people who are coming in isn't checking the email isn't picking up the phone, then they're not doing it. So you're allowed. You're allowed to say hey, you have to do all of these things. The idea with a contract And I'll be completely frank with, you know, most of the studios that have contractors really treat them like employees. Yeah. And they're just unaware of it like that. Remember, it's not a disregard, it's just unaware of it. So, for example, if the I mean, the question of like, if you're hiring someone to teach you in yoga, technically, they shouldn't be teaching it in yoga, but they're allowed to do it any way that they want. Like, they could do dangle, they could do banana, they can do Child's Pose, they can do sleeping deer, they can do it in any order in any way. They could hold one pose for 58 minutes, and you're not like, they've done nothing wrong. Instead of you know, three to five minutes for however long they should be holding it. But if you know if you're supposed to be doing in yoga, and then they come in, and they're doing Ashtanga or chair yoga or acro yoga, then that would be an example where you could say, hey, you know, you were contracted to do this. But it's like, it's about invoicing. It's about scheduling. There's, there's some unfortunately, like, like I said, it's a little bit more complicated. Yeah, but just think about control over services. So if you tell anyone how they have to do something, then they're an employee, if you let them, they can set out classes on their own. They can do it however they want to do it. They technically they should not be cleaning the room before after they make their own hours, although all those sorts of considerations come into play. Yeah. Fascinating. There's so much to it. I think, though, what's so interesting is that there's this idea in the yoga world that I'm going to become a yoga teacher, absolutely love my job, not really have to work. And as a yoga teacher, studio owner for a long time now, this is one of my biggest myths, I feel like I'm trying to bust when I'm either holding a teacher training, or having a conversation with somebody that's wanting to go down this path, working in the wellness industry, you're most definitely going to have to work really, really hard, you're most definitely going to have to follow the law. Get licenses pay for insurance. And, and it's just such an interesting blend. Because in the yoga world, there's this there's like a I don't I hate to say this out loud. But there's such a lack of professionalism. It's, it's a little bit for me, been, it's challenging at times, because being holding the responsibility that we do as a yoga studio, and knowing how much work is going involved into it. When I meet up with this lack of professionalism. I just think, come on, you guys. Come on. There's a lot, you really got to work, you know, so what do you what have you found in this regard? And how do you coach people along that are all of a sudden feeling like, why I didn't want to work? I was, okay, I'll share a couple of things. One is that I'm I, part of the reason why my business exists is a lot of the reason because of this lack of professionalism. So probably 50% of my job is fixing people's problems, because they weren't professional in the first place. And I can tell you, when someone pays like $9,000, to fix a problem that they didn't know they had, they learned professionalism very briefly. So sometimes, unfortunately, you know, it's called contrast. And sometimes there has to be a contrasting experience for you to realize, like, Oh, this is actually a business, and I actually am responsible for this. The only thing I also what I'd say is most of the people who I work with, by the time they're ready to make a financial commitment to being at best legal practices, they're ready. They're not like, I don't think people, I don't have clients who invest to work with me, and then disregard professionalism. So it's sort of like, I feel like I'm at a level where I'm meeting people where they're starting the journey, which to me is super inspiring, because I can show them a simple, easy, fun way of becoming a yoga professional and shifting the paradigm of how they look at running a business to be responsible and to, you know, to take care of the things that need to be taken care of and to be present to all of that so I don't I don't focus on the on the lack of professionalism. Like that's not a focal point for me. And also I don't like I think through my through the law of attraction, like I just don't attract a lot of those people who aren't, who are, you know, who have a complete disregard and are looking for a shortcut. The people who I work with are industry leaders, they're awesome. They want to do things properly. They're building epic communities. They're living in financial abundance. And so for me, my role is instead being a small piece of the puzzle for that is a inspiring one. Oh, that's cool core. It's so awesome. I know we potentially would need to speculate with this next question, but I am curious what you'll say Let's imagine we go back, say 2000 years to India, and there's a yogi, he or she is offering some sort of instruction to the students. And we're on thinking, there's this idea that some sort of payment was given. And maybe it was in the relation to someone living in a cave. And the student would bring some food, maybe some water, perhaps a blanket, something that their teacher would need. And the teacher would be subsisting off of, you know, the donation, so to speak of their students. And going back to an older style of conducting business now, I tend to think there have been laws ever since there'd been there's been humans, like we've created laws. And we've had to abide, we've, we've had to abide by these laws, even back then there must have been some sort of law. But I think now sometimes as new Yoga people are coming in, they're saying, I got into yoga, because I didn't want to get into all of this law stuff and all this stuff. And I realized there's a certain point where we have to say, Well, do you want to make money or not? You know, do you want to have it a business? Or do you want it to just be purely fun and a spiritual engagement process? And so I'm just wondering, do you agree with that, with what I'm saying to you? Does that make sense to you? Do you think that there probably were laws that those more renunciate Yogi's, were following in sort of in a cultural context? Or have we gotten overwritten with laws like as humanity is going along? Are the laws becoming so many laws that it's getting out of control? That I'll answer the we'll go to the hypothetical in a second. But I'll just share with you because I was in Florida not too long ago, speaking at the Florida yoga Expo cool. And the the big and yeah, and I came from Bali. I was in Bali, I did a training there. And the craziest thing that I experienced coming to Florida was like all of these massive billboards on the is it the 45, or the 405. Maybe were in Florida, where you South Florida, Miami, Fort Lauderdale, and probably 90 to 95k on the 95. Billboards about like, if you got injured, if you're in an accident, it doesn't matter if you are wrong. So the first thing I'll say, but all of that is like driving a car. Like if you drive a car in the United States, that is a high risk activity, you need insurance for it, if you want to talk about how litigious society is, this isn't about yoga, this is about the society that we live in. And for me, it was just such a stark contrast from being in Bali, everyone on little motorbike, being completely chaotic. But some like no one's suing someone if you fall off your bike, or someone doesn't put their turn signal on. Or if you're in the in the United States, and in North America, it's a really big deal. So the first question, like the thing you have to accept is like, if I'm participating in this society, so if I'm going to benefit from the capitalist structure that is in place in North America or in the United States, then there are certain rules that you have to abide by in doing that. And that's really all that's really that's, that's what it is. So if someone says, oh, I don't want to do this stuff, like, I'll give an example, I lived in Brazil, I lived in a beach town for two years. There's no roads, there's no car, there's no police, there's no banks, there's no rules. I love living there. And like, there were a lot of frustrating elements to it, where sometimes things wouldn't happen. But like no one told me what to do. I walked around without a shirt and without shoes, and I turn on the river, and I'd swim in the ocean. And that's what I did. And I worked online and online, I have those responsibilities. Come like back to India, though. I'm sure there were a lot of rules, but they were just it was a completely different set of rules. It would be like societal rules and respect to elders. And when you can do things on certain days and the caste system, right? Like just think about the caste system in India, where the rules Yeah, the rules. It's totally different. If you're from this group, or if you're from that group. For us. Now we've abolished that. And yeah, we've embraced egalitarianism and equality, but we but alongside with that is okay, if everyone's equal, then everyone has an equal responsibility to everyone else, which includes liability. So that's sort of my take on it. I love it. Thank you. It's fascinating to hear, because it's something that I don't I just don't feel like it's talked about a whole lot in this fear. So I I think it's really important I I'll be really, really honest with you, uh, prior to inviting you to be a guest. I did have to think if we start talking about the law, am I gonna is it gonna bother people? You know what I really like and I don't mean that disrespectful to you because I have full respect for the law. And I have full respect for the profession of law of the law and being a lawyer. But I just, I just in the yoga world, I just feel like I just come across so many people are like, Ah, don't sign a liability waiver. Once you sign up, you know what I mean? Just going down that tracks I really appreciate the level of professionalism that you're bringing to the table. And I And I'm, I'm really happy to have this conversation, because I think the more we get it out in the open and discuss it, then it's just okay. It's not that big a deal. You know, we can we can navigate all these challenges. But so so I really do appreciate this quarry. Is there any? What have I missed? What other what other big pressing issues or just issues that you come across that you think, Hey, guys, I want you to know about this? I think I think we're good, I think not not, I think we've touched on a lot of the major points, what I usually say to new clients, or whenever I'm giving a talk at a conference, think about the different relationships you have in the goal for each relationship to be communicate expectations openly and honestly. And like and then also accept that there are legal nuances to each relationship that you have. And I look in terms of your comments like people, I'm so past the point of caring if people want to talk about the law or not. Because if you saw my inbox, and if I had recorded all of the conversations I've had with clients, who messed up by not being protected, like there's, there's a lot of work for me, there's always going to be a lot of work for me. And so if someone doesn't want to pay, it's not my responsibility, my responsibility is when I have a client to serve their best interests. And if someone doesn't want to sign a waiver of liability, I don't care doesn't mean anything to me. I'm my personal mission. And the mission of our law firm is to transform the way legal services are provided to hurt leading entrepreneurs. So I'm taking a stand for that. I'm all about that. It's like, if you think about politics, there's two parties. I'm not looking at what the other party is doing. I don't care if someone doesn't want to sign a waiver or wants to sign a waiver. I want the people who I work with, and I love to be protected. I want to show people that there's a certain level of professionalism that we should aspire to. And I just want to have fun along the way of doing it. That's so cool. Cory, when you had this idea, and or feeling inside of like, okay, let me bring some heart into a field or profession that often might be deemed as not one that's coming from the heart. Did you come up with some opposition from your colleagues that said, great idea. Core it, but But look, you know, businesses business, and you know, that type of thing, it's going to be, you know, how are you going to bring heart into something that sometimes when we look at the business role, it seems very cutthroat? You know, it's really like, just people are so hungry for money, they're willing to do anything for it sometimes. I'm curious, um, did you come across some opposition. I mean, I love what you're doing. It's such a good idea, I would just imagine, you probably have had to push, you got a little push back. And you've pushed back as well to get to where you are. Yet definitely, especially at the beginning, at the proof of concept stage. And I played when I lived in I lived in Vancouver, British Columbia at the time that I was doing this when I started. And, and I played on a soccer team with all lawyers. And I remember very, very well, when I told them, my idea was like, Hey, guys, I'm going to work with yoga professionals, and I'm going to travel the world and do it. And not one single person told me that it was everyone's like, No way. No chance. It's not happening. You won't do it. Yeah, it won't work. And then even even as I started, yeah, there, but I think that's what a true in a lot of ways. That's what a true authentic path looks like. I think anyone who's done anything where they've changed, you know, changed the paradigm or transformed an industry or taken a stand for something audacious and bold. The starting point is people telling you, it's not going to work and that it's not right, and that it can't happen. And there's a there's a personal test that's involved to believe in yourself and believe in the mission of what you're doing. To stand up to that and say, Okay, well, this is what I actually believe my contribution is and can be, and I'm going to try my best and if it doesn't work, maybe I learned that, okay. Yogi's, don't need lawyers. But they're, I don't think anything. I don't think anything that is going to change the landscape is going to come easily and it won't be easily accepted by others. And that's why like, it's so it's very, you know, now it's seven, almost eight years later, it's great to have contract conversations like this, but I've just done this work every day where I'm just like, Okay, I know that people need this help. And, and I've always stayed true to the mission and and more and more, there's more validation that's required, but most importantly, it's fulfilling It's, it's what I want to do, I think I'm really, really good at it. And I'm inspired at the possibilities of what we can create for the future. Oh, man, your enthusiasm is infectious. What is your next big dream big goal? I want to I, I want to I want I'm gonna, I'm in the midst of creating a lawyer coaching program. So because my mission, both for my law firm and myself personally, is to transform the way legal services are provided to our leading entrepreneurs, I want to start coaching other lawyers, it doesn't have to be in yoga or health and wellness, but to build their own niches into take a similar approach in areas that they care about. And like, teach them how to do it online and travel because Mexico is rad. And Bali is awesome. And Brazil is amazing. And I'm just I'm done. At least for me, I'm done with the old world of being an intelligent, capable lawyer and being able to help a lot of people means that I have to be miserable, staying behind a desk and working until 9pm every night. So that's like, that's my next dream and everything in its right time. And, and I feel I feel that it'll all come into place when when it's right. That's so cool. Cory. Man, I'm, I'm really excited to have this chance to meet you. Thank you so much for sharing all this information. I feel Thank you listener for for hanging in here and learning. And I do believe that as we improve our professionalism, we just raise the bar for yoga being accepted in school programs and hospital programs for potentially insurance companies to accept yoga as seen as a legitimate way to improve the health of those that practice it, I do see that we have a huge need for more peace, health, heart healthy activities, meditation, and I think that what you're doing Korean bringing this level of professionalism, but also, like you said, bringing heart into an area that maybe people didn't think you could do is really next level stuff. So I'm really stoked that you're doing what you're doing. I think it's really cool, man. And it is inspiring. And thank you for sharing everything you shared. Is there anything else in the process of closing our conversation that you would like to offer? I want to say thanks to you for my my first podcast. Yeah, so I loved it. And I appreciate you. And and I just want to sort of echo your final sentiments and your final comments. And for me what the most inspiring thing is whenever I'm traveling or I'm in a new place, and I go to a new studio, and I'm just like whatever's going on in my day, I'm on the mat I'm practicing. I'm like, oh my god, this is amazing. This changed my life. You know, I've so many there's that's happened so many times in my life. And I just know that I'm one person. And you know, a studio will run for four more classes a day with however many people that are involved, like, I just know the impact that studio owners and yoga teachers have in people's lives, because I know that I'm affected in that particular way in the most positive way. So I just want to thank everyone who's listening for making the choice to be a yoga professional for making a choice to help professionalize our industry and to spread love and joy and exercise and mindfulness and connection of mind and body. Because that's wherever it is. We're going as a society, the best route and the best path is going to be with more mindfulness and health and wellness for everyone. So thank you, Todd. I appreciate you, man. Thanks for having me. And thank you everyone for listening. Yeah, man, that was awesome. Thank you, Cory. Native yoga podcast is produced by myself. The theme music is dreamed up by Bryce Allen. If you liked this show, let me know if there's room for improvement. I want to hear that too. We are curious to know what you think and what you want more of what I can improve. And if you have ideas for a future guests or topics, please send us your thoughts to info at Native yoga center. You can find us at Native yoga center.com. And hey, if you did like this episode, share it with your friends, rate it and review and join us next time