NASPO Pulse

Adapting to Market Changes in Fleet Procurement

• National Association of State Procurement Officials • Season 5 • Episode 9

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Ever wondered how public procurement professionals manage to keep municipal fleets running smoothly despite numerous challenges? Get ready to uncover the answers in our latest NASPO Pulse episode. Join us as we host Tom Zembruski from Waukesha County's Department of Public Works and Brian White from Milwaukee's Fleet Services. These seasoned experts offer a wealth of knowledge and personal anecdotes about the complexities of fleet procurement, touching on the unique struggles they've faced in recent years.

Discover how the ongoing effects of COVID-19 have complicated vehicle acquisition for municipalities, leading to an over-reliance on aging fleets. Brian sheds light on Milwaukee's strategy for dealing with continuous repairs and planning for unpredictable events, such as potential strikes and political shifts. Learn why managing expectations and staying prepared for the unexpected are essential tactics for public fleet managers in today’s volatile environment.

As we look toward the future, explore the promising yet challenging transition to electric vehicles (EVs) and alternative fuels. Hear how Milwaukee navigates legislative mandates for low-emission vehicle procurement, and understand the critical disconnect between current EV offerings and municipal fleet needs. From the practical applications of maintenance vans to the potential of hydrogen fuel for heavy-duty vehicles, this episode offers a balanced perspective on the innovative solutions shaping the future of fleet management. Don’t miss this comprehensive discussion on public procurement’s evolving landscape.

Click here to view the transcript of this podcast.


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Telice Gillom:

Hello again, you're listening to the NASPO Pulse podcast. If you're looking for conversations about procurement topics, you've come to the right place. I'm your host, T Gillum, and once again I'm bringing you another episode of expert insights on various topics in the wide world of public procurement. Today's episode is all about fleet procurement. We're talking cars, so start your engines. Today, I'm joined by Tom Zembruski, fleet Manager at the Department of Public Works in Waukesha County, and Brian White, fleet Services Manager for the Department of Public Works in the City of Milwaukee. These two gentlemen will be having an honest conversation with us about their experiences and the challenges they face with fleet procurement in their home state of Wisconsin. If your city, county or state agency has had trouble buying vehicles or heavy-duty equipment in the past four years, you'll definitely appreciate this discussion and, as always, we have more revved-up episodes in the coming weeks.

Telice Gillom:

You see what I did there. To ensure you don't miss a thing, you know what you need to do Subscribe to the NASPO Pulse podcast. Feel free to email us with your questions. Now put the pedal to the metal and let's take the pulse. Guys, thank you so much for joining me today. If you wouldn't mind, go ahead and introduce yourselves to our listeners.

Tom Zebruski:

Good morning. My name is Tom . I am the fleet manager for Waukesha County, which is in southeastern Wisconsin. I've been in fleet maintenance for approximately 30 years, starting out as a mechanic and working my way up to manager. Pretty dedicated, diehard, gearhead guy, very interested in all things transportation and excited to be here this morning.

Brian White:

Hi, my name is Brian White. I'm the fleet services manager for the City of Milwaukee Department of Public Works. I, too, have been in fleet for quite some time. I went and started as a mechanic right out of high school. I kind of moved up my career, holding different supervisory roles, and most recently I was the fleet manager for the City of Milwaukee Police Department and then returned back into the public works sector just about a year ago. I also enjoy a little bit of gearhead time in my free time. I don't build things as much as I used to, but I've got two little kids, and I think that that's a hobby that I might like to really dig back into once my time allows it.

Telice Gillom:

Guys, what's your favorite car or mechanical project that you've built?

Tom Zebruski:

So I have an old muscle car. I have a 1969 American Motors AMX. So pretty unique to just Wisconsin because American Motors was from Kenosha, the cars were built here. Obviously, for people who don't know, amc was bought out, absorbed by Chrysler in the late 80s. So pretty cool car Work on it with my son, take it around to car shows and stuff like that, so pretty fun.

Brian White:

Yeah, for me, I actually got to experience being a car guy when I was in high school. That was my, that was kind of my prime time. At that point I had a 1979 Jeep CJ7 that that we kind of worked on and it had an AMC 304 V8 and it was lifted and had big tires on it and it was, I tell you, to be 17 or 18 and driving around in a Jeep with no doors and no top throughout the summertime. That was fun. I really enjoyed that.

Telice Gillom:

Oh, you were that guy in high school, huh.

Brian White:

I sure was was fun, I really enjoyed that.

Telice Gillom:

Oh, you were that guy in high school? Huh, I sure was. Now, what our listeners might not know is I am also a car guy, even though I'm a lady. I grew up with car guys, I was raised by a car guy, so this is an episode that's quite dear to me, and our topic today is fleet procurement. So, guys, tell me, what are your top priorities for fleet procurement this year?

Tom Zebruski:

I would say to continue monitoring and we'll talk a little bit about it as we go through but just the actual procurement of equipment, the allocations and supply and demand and how many vehicles we can actually procure year in and year out.

Brian White:

I think I would agree with that and really on a simple basis, what's most important to us is filling the needs of our internal customers, and we might have this idea of this is the perfect vehicle that meets exactly their needs. But we kind of have to pull back on those a little bit and focus a little bit more on what can we get right now, what's available. And some of it is how much are we really willing to I won't say sacrifice, but how much are we willing to compromise on in terms of what we can get right now?

Telice Gillom:

What would you say your priorities for next year would be?

Tom Zebruski:

I would say right now, just based on my conversation with some of the manufacturers, is where are we going to be with police vehicles? It seems like police vehicles are still going to be a little bit of a challenge, and that includes just what lineups are available from the various manufacturers and moving downward from not even just the police vehicles but admin vehicles and vehicles maybe for detectives and things like that. And, like Brian said, what's going to fit your customer, what's going to fit their needs Operationally? What's best for them? Just trying to think about how we're going to secure equipment when there might not be sedans available anymore and we might have to look strictly at SUVs. That's one of the things that I'm working on for next year.

Brian White:

Well for the city of Milwaukee.

Brian White:

We kind of have two different pathways that we're focusing on About this time.

Brian White:

Last year we passed a zero and low emissions vehicle mandate, which kind of forces us but there are a lot of off ramps there but it forces us to really look at our purchases through the scope of climate and equity and that goes hand in hand with our city's overall climate and equity plan.

Brian White:

So we're always evaluating and looking for what options might be available in terms of alternative fuels or fully electric or hybrid or other types of vehicles that would meet those criteria. In addition to that, some of the procurement lead times have expanded and just been drawn so far out that we're trying to sort of educate our internal customers about how the procurement process really is playing out, where we can't expect to order in early 2025 and have the vehicle later that fall. So what we're trying to communicate to our customers is saying, for next year, when we're ordering equipment, we need to be ordering the equipment that you need two years from now because there's going to be such a lead time before we actually get that piece of equipment and service. And that's kind of a change from where we were, even just a few years ago is it really requires a little bit more foresight and some long-term planning.

Telice Gillom:

Speaking of the procurement issues, what other procurement options have you been using to help you mitigate your inability to get those vehicles and get equipment? Have you been looking at maintenance of the vehicles that you have, or what other options are there?

Tom Zebruski:

On our side in Waukesha and Brian just mentioned it a little bit there's been, I think, a lot more awareness as far as the partnership you have with procurement it used to be so much easier to get vehicles where now some of the strategies that we're looking at is with the allocations.

Tom Zebruski:

We have to think about letters of intent. We have to think about the communication with the manufacturers to see when the ordering windows are opening and closing. We have to plan and see on a schedule when the vehicles are going to come in to replace the old vehicles. And it's one of the things that we're looking at too is obviously keeping older vehicles longer, right, and the maintenance and the cost on those vehicles. And how much money and energy do we want to put into a vehicle when we know we're going to potentially be replacing it and how we plan for that. And then another great point too is maybe traditionally, if you're all you're using one part, are buying one particular brand of vehicle and you're maybe you're a ford person, maybe you're a chevy person, um, but now you really do have to look at everything that's just available to fulfill your needs and take care of your customers I would definitely agree on a lot of those points, especially in terms of keeping vehicles longer than desired.

Brian White:

The city of Milwaukee has always kind of had a challenge with timely replacements of vehicles, but sometimes with our procurement lead times the way they are now, and then aligning those with funding availability. We actually this is a term one of my colleagues has used is that we're almost held hostage to our vehicles because we have such a crucial function that that vehicle might perform and even if we have previously ordered a vehicle, we don't necessarily have it yet. So we have this gap between I need to keep this vehicle functional for the time that it's going to take for us to get the replacement manufactured and placed into service, and in some of those instances there's no option but to continue fixing that vehicle. And it's unfortunate and it speaks to sort of an opportunity for us to plan a little bit better long-term. So we don't realize those gaps where we have to continue to fix something to maintain service delivery prior to a new vehicle coming into service.

Telice Gillom:

What are some of the other lingering fleet procurement issues from the time of COVID? It seems like COVID is still this specter that's kind of lingering over fleet procurement. What are some of the other fleet procurement issues from that time?

Tom Zebruski:

I would say that when we talk about the time of COVID, that allocations and just the equipment availability is still continuing to be an issue. We saw during the time of COVID where allocations were very small and I think that the manufacturers were shifting to more of the private sales to the public and for a while there it was very difficult for anyone in a government setting to try to buy vehicles. They just weren't available and I don't know, is it a profit model? Is it a? However the availability came out to be, but it was very common for us to place our normal order for vehicles and only be allowed half of those vehicles.

Tom Zebruski:

And so then there's this huge shift in how we're planning and our life cycles and our maintenance costs and even just the fact of being off cycle and instead of we had gotten so used to and, dare I say, a little bit complacent on our end, where we're so used to these vehicles coming in at a certain time every year, almost like you could set your watch to it, and then the next thing, you know, the vehicles aren't coming in. And then we have to deal with things like auto manufacturers being on strike, and then there was the potential for a rail strike, that the cars are delivered by rail from all these different plants, and so there's other things, like outside factors that are contributing to the fleet procurement that you, really we can't control those things.

Brian White:

So I think I would add that the kind of central theme and what Tom just mentioned and what we've experienced is is uncertainty. Experience is uncertainty and I would say that in regard from a customer standpoint, as we're trying to purchase different pieces of equipment. If we looked at pre-COVID, manufacturers used to they used to publish an estimated order to delivery date where you say if you order your vehicle on date A, they could say you would receive that vehicle as a delivery in, say, 18 weeks or 24 weeks. Now there's uncertainty not only about how long it's going to take to receive your vehicles, but whether your vehicles are even going to end up being built.

Brian White:

The city of Milwaukee experienced for two years in a row where we ordered police vehicles and we ordered them.

Brian White:

I believe we ordered them in late September and we didn't find out until almost a year after the fact that they weren't going to be able to manufacture those vehicles.

Brian White:

And so we're left in this limbo of we've got vehicles on order but we're really not even certain we're going to get them Prior to COVID. Not only were we sure that when we ordered a vehicle we were going to get it, but we had a reasonable expectation of when that vehicle was going to show up. And what we're seeing now again in this theme of uncertainty is when we, even when we, go out to receive quotes from different manufacturers and this exists in both light side and in the light equipment and in the heavy equipment world some of the manufacturers don't even know how many vehicles they're going to have to sell to customers yet. So they'll say well, not only do I not have pricing, I don't even know how many I'm going to be able to sell you. And they may not have those answers for a number of months. So we're trying to make these long-term plans on how best to address our fleet, and what we get from the manufacturer's end is uncertainty.

Telice Gillom:

I think that is the overarching all of these entities were using and everyone was affected and uncertain about, and still is uncertain about, when things were going to go back, to quote, unquote, normal. So it kind of goes without saying that current events are heavily affecting agencies of all sizes to purchase things or do things, operations of all kinds, and 2024 seems to be the uncertainty year, doesn't it? We didn't know that on New Year's Day, we all tooted our horns and threw the confetti, not knowing this was going to be the year of uncertainty. It kind of goes without saying that current events are affecting fleet procurement as well and, this being an election year and a potential governmental change, there's a huge impact legislation, infrastructure. What are some of the current events affecting your agencies, aside from that outage that I mentioned, and how do you prepare in the time of uncertainty? Or can you prepare, I guess, in the time of uncertainty?

Brian White:

Well, I think I would say that, in terms of being uncertain, I think part of it is just managing expectations. We, you know our internal customers. We have to. We have to prepare them for the unexpected, because we don't really have solid answers. I believe right now we have somewhere in the range of I think I have over $12 million encumbered in purchases that I don't know when they're going to show up. Maybe they'll show up this year, maybe it'll be next year. I really don't know, and I mean it would be great if we had better information about that.

Brian White:

In terms of current events, there's the prospect of a different administration or at least an election year that could potentially change some of the directions that our agencies and regulations might take. There was a recent Supreme Court ruling that throws into question how future regulations, whether they're emissions or fuel efficiency standards, might impact, uh, the different, the different industries. I don't pretend to have any answers about how that's going to go, but it's. It just falls and throws all these things which for some time had been sort of you know, settled science, if you will. It kind of shifts those back over into uncertainty. Is the EPA mandate that mandates additional heavy truck diesel emissions actually going to happen in 2026 or 2027? Or is a different administration or litigation going to push that date back or overturn it altogether? I don't know. How is that going to affect the procurement or what manufacturers decide to build? I don't know.

Tom Zebruski:

Brian, I think you got some great points there, and when I talk to the leadership on my side and I get a lot of the same questions about emission standards and electric vehicles and infrastructure and the current state of events and infrastructure and the current state of events, and I think we've kind of fallen into this hurry up and wait.

Tom Zebruski:

That's really where we're at right now. And the Chevron decision obviously I'm assuming there's going to be challenges to various laws and things like that, but that stuff takes a lot of time to play out. These things aren't they're not overnight decisions and it kind of has to work its way through the courts and then, like I said, we have an election coming up and so, yeah, it's kind of one of those things where the best thing you can do and I know we've talked a little bit about it before best thing you can do, and I know we've talked a little bit about it before is that's why the networking and the communication and me, brian and I, being connected and working as two fleets together and communicating with other fleets to try to stay on top of the changes and just try to help each other so we can do the best we can as far as trying to plan for what's coming here.

Telice Gillom:

Yeah, you mentioned the EPA standards and there's been a lot of talk with those standards potentially changing. There's been a lot of talk about potentially going to electric vehicles for fleet and I know that manufacturers have invested quite a bit in consumer EVs but maybe less so for fleet. Are you all doing anything or planning to do a similar investment in EVs for your fleets?

Brian White:

Well, I can tell you that the city of Milwaukee we do have a legislative mandate from our city council that requires us to purchase alternative, low emission, hybrid, fully electric vehicles. So that's something we're very interested in in all aspects of our fleet, whether it's just a simple pickup truck all the way up to heavier trucks or police vehicles. What is very interesting to me, though, is, I think, the EV section of the market, specifically the manufacturers. They really expected a larger consumer market, I think, than has played out A year ago. Two years ago, every manufacturer was saying A year ago, two years ago, every manufacturer was saying, well, they're going to discontinue internal combustion engines by 2040 or 2050, or they're going to roll out 72 new models that are full electric in the next three years, or whatever their benchmarks were. And we've seen almost all those manufacturers kind of pull those offerings back and sort of walk back those commitments. And, specifically towards fleet, we were excited about the prospect of additional electric vehicles being put onto the market, specifically by the domestic manufacturers. Unfortunately, what we've kind of seen play out is these manufacturers plan for a large consumer demand, and now that consumer demand isn't really there. So the products that they have are sort of misaligned with where the demand might be In fleet.

Brian White:

We're still interested in fully electric vehicles. I mean, I think that fleet is an. I think it's an excellent place for those to fall. I mean, essentially, we work, we work every day, and then the vehicles are more or less parked all night, and that's very conducive to allow for electric charging, and we operate within the city of Milwaukee. We're not taking 200 mile road trips up to the mountains or the cabin or anything like that, so our use is predictable and we have a lot of dwell or downtime where we can recharge. I think it's a great fit.

Brian White:

What's not a great fit, though, is that the manufacturers again. They started developing products for a consumer market, and now that consumer market doesn't seem to be there. So what we're experiencing is we're experiencing if we want to go and try to buy a small fully electric SUV. The only trim levels that are available are geared towards a consumer instead of a fleet. I don't want adaptive cruise control and navigation and heated steering wheel and synthetic leather seats. I want vinyl vinyl, I mean I'd probably get crank windows if you could, if you could buy them, but that's. That product is just misaligned with what fleets are looking for right now I would agree.

Tom Zebruski:

Um, I know it's been in the news recently. Um ford just came out recently they are. They had planned, they've been planning on developing a larger electric vehicle plant, I believe, in Canada, and they pulled back on that and they said what they're going to do is convert that plant over to produce super duty trucks, which is basically three quarter ton, one ton and up trucks, because the other two plants that they have in the United States are running at capacity and the demand for super duty trucks, which really falls right into the municipal area here, something that we buy quite a few of, and so what we're seeing now from the manufacturers is there is a pullback, I think a little bit, on the EVs, I think a little bit on the EVs and a shift towards pickup trucks, things that we really need, things that have been difficult to procure. I had a situation where and Brian talked a little bit about it too I had a vehicle that was on order. I got a call the vehicle's been canceled, the allocation windows are closed, there's no timeline for me to order another one. So you're trying to figure it out, you're calling local dealers what's available and then, out of the blue, a build slot opens up and you have 30 minutes to tell them I want the truck or I don't want the truck, which, as far as like when we talk about government procurement and standards and processes, it's not quite as easy as it is in the private sector where you can just make those snap decisions. We look at state contracts and things like that and bidding things out properly and it's been a challenge in that regard.

Tom Zebruski:

But I agree too with Brian. Like we've been looking at where can we fit EV vehicles into our fleet and I look specifically you have to look like what vehicles are available and I look at, like the transit electric vans, our facilities, guys that go around and do maintenance on the buildings I mean we're in a square radius of doing buildings of probably less than 30 miles square radius right. So that van would be perfect for us as far as being able to run around all day. It has the range. It just really comes down to the cost and then the infrastructure for the charging and that's why, like I said, it's so critical when I see Milwaukee is a little bit more ahead of the curve as far as trying some of the technology and that's why I want to work with Brian and let him maybe be a little bit of a beta tester, since his fleet is quite a bit larger than mine, to see what's really working for him and then, depending on how things go, the hurry up and wait thing again.

Tom Zebruski:

If we get to that point where we do have to make a big shift to EVs, that's where we're really going to rely on the people who've already tried these things, like they are in the city of Milwaukee, and make sure we're getting operationally the best vehicles for our customers. So with all new technology, I do think there's pros and cons and if we're going to successfully integrate EVs into our municipal fleets, I really think it's going to come down to fit, function and range and, most importantly, I feel like with the EV development it needs to closely align with our infrastructure and we need to think about our grid capacity and how we're going to charge these vehicles. These vehicles, they do require a ton of electricity and it brings into question about charge times and battery storage, and we've talked a little bit about off-peak and on-peak. So right now their electric rates are different from night to day and I think that's going to change over time. They're going to have to come up with a standard rate that pretty much goes throughout a 24-hour period if people are charging, haven't but some of the stories we've seen on the news where the grid is at capacity, you can't charge it, you shouldn't charge your cars today, or it's so cold outside that the vehicles aren't charging up quick enough and they need to come and do mobile charging, and I think those are some of the things that maybe there's a little bit of hand-wringing on the fleet manager side about potentially having the vehicles and what challenges they'll bring to the fleet. But we've talked about it before.

Tom Zebruski:

Brian and I we were at a conference recently and one of the examples I gave to everyone was I can still remember when plasma screen TVs came out and they were $15,000. I mean, plasma screen TVs came out and they were $15,000. I mean this is like 20 years ago, maybe dating myself a little bit, but I remember when these things came out and I was like who could pay $15,000 for a TV? But it's so cool, it's like super thin and it's not your typical tube TV that takes up a big corner of your living room. And now fast forward 20, 25 years later. Corner of your living room, and now fast forward. 20, 25 years later, you can buy a 72 inch TV at any of your big box store for five, 600 bucks, right? So the technology is going to get there. The challenges I think we'll be able to. We're going to work through the challenges, but I think right now you have to really think about the infrastructure and how that's going to affect your operation and your costs.

Brian White:

So you know, Tom, you mentioned the infrastructure, and In Milwaukee, as I've mentioned, we do have a mandate to purchase electric vehicles, and I I had the perhaps fortunate or unfortunate experience recently of appearing at a Common Council meeting, and so we were actually only seeking authority to apply for an EV grant. But it kind of raised the question about well, where are we in our process for transitioning our fleet to electric vehicles? And this particular elected official was taken aback by the fact that DPW currently has one single electric vehicle and one single electric charger, and I could only categorize it as saying perhaps the elected officials have a. They're intoxicated with the idea of we can just flip a switch and make our fleet electric. They're intoxicated with the idea of we can just flip a switch and make our fleet electric, and there's a complete disillusionment about what it actually takes to get there.

Brian White:

So we've taken a very disciplined and deliberate methodology to buy a single vehicle. See, how do those charging challenges actually play out? How does the charger work when it's 10 degrees outside? What kind of range do we lose when it's 10 degrees outside? How long does it take to charge it? And when we answer those questions, then we're better able to prepare for great. Now I know how long this particular vehicle is going to take to charge, what it's actually going to do, how we use it, and then I can kind of find places to deploy those vehicles.

Brian White:

And so there's really kind of a reality check. For do we want to be full electric? Sure, that's a goal, and I kind of made this analogy that our policy as far as fleet electrification, that's the destination, that's where we want to get to. What we're doing, what we've done over the last year and what we'll continue to do for probably the next year or so, is that we're building the roadmap, we're figuring out how we get there, and sometime after that then it becomes an actionable plan where we can start really infusing the fleet with different electric vehicles. But I think it's really crucially important to say, to be realistic about we can't just start buying electric vehicles without considering that infrastructure portion.

Telice Gillom:

Very important.

Tom Zebruski:

I think really quickly too. Just to add to that, based on some of the things that we've also been kind of hearing industry-wide, is obviously this huge shift looking at EVs. But there's also been a lot of talk recently about hydrogen, and how does hydrogen play into all of this? I think especially on the heavy truck side, where the hydrogen may solve some of the range anxiety issues, and so there's been a push. I think I want to say I've seen Toyota and a number of other manufacturers pushing for some of the fuel cell stuff with hydrogen.

Tom Zebruski:

Um, and I think again, we have to kind of wait and see how things are going to go. It's a hurry up and wait and see, but, um, I do think, uh, it's going to be a mix. I don't think when it comes to the like in our industry, like where Brian and I are, we're plowing snow, right, and I just don't know that the battery storage is going to be there in order to run a plow truck and unfortunately, when we have a bad winter storm we don't have that option to let that vehicle recharge I think maybe potentially with a hydrogen vehicle, the range would be extended quite a bit and then the refueling would take significantly less time. So again alternative fuels, hybrids, hydrogen I think all things are going to be on the table as we go forward here is hydrogen.

Telice Gillom:

I think all things are going to be on the table as we go forward here. It's probably a good idea to consider all of the options and not just go straight to electric as the solution is what I'm hearing.

Brian White:

I would definitely agree with that and you know this is maybe a recurring theme for this episode. But one of the challenges that we have as far as alternative fuels are fully electric is that uncertainty. We don't know how much it's going to snow, how long it's going to take for us to plow those streets. So electric vehicles are really well positioned for a in an environment of certainty, where maybe it's you know what if it was the post office? Right, they know I'm going to go deliver X number of houses every day, or amazon's going to deliver this route every day.

Brian White:

They have reasonably predictable use from day in day out when we start getting into the vehicles we use for snow and ice control, we just don't know. I mean, that's where it's completely uncertain. But we're certainly interested in all all different types of things. The city has been a uh, the been a long-term advocate of compressed natural gas. We have close to 100 compressed natural gas refuse vehicles and we've been in that space for a little over a decade now. I can speak from my experience that hydrogen is not something that's really on our radar right now, only because of the infrastructure costs associated with it. And I grant you there's significant infrastructure costs with electric as well. But to oversimplify it, you know it's a plug versus a large station that has to compress and separate out hydrogen. So there's there's some difference in simplicity there and we're not looking to recreate the wheel and say we're going to abandon all of our compressed natural gas technology and then compress a different gas and build it all over again. That's probably not an area that we're going to be looking to operate in.

Telice Gillom:

What advice would you give to our NASPO audience who are having headaches about fleet procurement?

Tom Zebruski:

I would say, like we just talked a little bit earlier about, it's really, I think, about the communication between whoever you have contracts with, whether it be a state procurement thing or consortium, working with your procurement department to be diligent about ordering windows and letters of intent and making sure that you're catching the windows of availability for vehicles. Communication, I think, is really one of the biggest keys and, like we spoke to a little bit earlier, I feel like the communication and the networking between your other local municipalities to make sure that we're working together as we work through some of the challenges on availability. I think that's really really important right now.

Brian White:

Yeah, I definitely agree with communication. I talk with Tom quite a bit. We talk with other managers that are in like-sized municipalities. But you know, the cities or municipalities or counties or whatever they are, those agencies don't have to necessarily be this identical cookie cutters of one another. I mean the city of Milwaukee fleet has over I think we're over 4,500 units and that's significantly larger than the fleet that Tom manages. But we both face similar challenges, perhaps just on a different scale. You know we have the same challenges as far as procurement or budgeting or whatever. But you know it's a case of well, I add a zero to my challenges where maybe he doesn't Right. It's really the same sort of cards that you know the same hands that were dealt.

Telice Gillom:

And the state of Wisconsin fleet is probably dealing with the same issues on a larger scale. The state of Rhode Island is dealing with you know, the same issues. They're further away but they're dealing with snow as well and they probably have a smaller fleet larger fleet than Waukesha County or the city of Milwaukee or the state of Wisconsin. So I think you're right. It's a good idea to keep the conversations going, regardless of the size of your fleet.

Brian White:

It is, and there are some fleets, new York City for example, or some of the large rental cars or large truck manufacturers. They get to play by a different set of rules. They get a seat at the table when the manufacturers allocate who gets what. They get a say in those things. But for the most part, I would say most state governments, local governments, whatever they're going to be left as picking up whatever's left over and hoping that they can best meet the needs of their customers.

Telice Gillom:

So, guys, I know you're dads and I know you've got some dad jokes to tell. Tell me some dad jokes, anything you got.

Tom Zebruski:

I don't know, Brian, do you got a good one?

Brian White:

I mean, so I have a. I'll tell you my six-year year old's favorite joke and she says why did the cookie go to the doctor?

Telice Gillom:

Why.

Brian White:

Because he was feeling crummy.

Tom Zebruski:

Oh boy.

Telice Gillom:

That is such a great six year old joke. I love it, tom, what you got.

Tom Zebruski:

I don't know. Off the top of my head I know, and it's probably more of something that's more common. But why do bicycles have a kickstand? Why? Because they're too tired.

Telice Gillom:

That's a good one. I love it. So, guys, thank you so much for talking with me today. I appreciate you. Thank you for having us yep absolutely.

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