Tribal Research Specialist: The Podcast

#57 - Conversation on Traditions: Walking Belly First with Indigenous Practitioners and Scholars

• Shandin Pete, Aaron Brien • Season 3 • Episode 57

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00:01 Indigenous vs. Tribal Archaeology
11:21 Discussion on Singing Protocol
18:51 Unspoken Hierarchy in PowWow Culture
28:53 Social Dynamics in Native Gatherings
34:07 Struggles With Traditional and Academic Knowledge
43:20 Navigating Indigenous Knowledge and Protocol
56:40 Practitioners vs. Scholars in Traditions
01:01:24 Reinterpreting Traditional Ecological Knowledge
01:13:34 Personal Dental Care Preferences

Hosts: Aaron Brien (Apsáalooke), Shandin Pete (Salish/Diné)

How to cite this episode (apa)
Pete, S. H., & Brien, A. (Hosts). (2024, Jul 31). #57 - Conversation on Traditions: Walking Belly First with Indigenous Practitioners and Scholars  [Audio podcast episode]. In Tribal Research Specialist:The Podcast. Tribal Research Specialist, LLC. https://www.buzzsprout.com/953152/15784962

How to cite this podcast (apa)
Pete, S. H., & Brien, A. (Hosts). (2020–present). Tribal Research Specialist:The Podcast [Audio podcast].  Tribal Research Specialist, LLC. https://tribalresearchspecialist.buzzsprout.com

Podcast Website: tribalresearchspecialist.buzzsprout.com
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Aaron Brien:

I'm starting to regret the indigenous archaeology um yeah term yeah, well, hey, that's the thing. That's the thing, man, the word indigenous yeah, it's, it's a real thing, it used to be um what am?

Aaron Brien:

What am I?

Aaron Brien:

doing I'm tagging myself. Yeah, that was a term coined by. Well, I don't know who coined it, but a guy named Joe Watkins kind of popularized. Joe Watkins Made it mainstream.

Aaron Brien:

Indigenous yeah.

Aaron Brien:

Indigenous archaeology.

Shandin Pete:

Okay, oh with the archaeology on it.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah, yeah, so that that's making it a different play off of that. Oh yeah, like it's its own field, right, okay, all right, but now I think I should have went with tribal archaeology, which is like that to me. That just seems more like I like that tribal term more. Yeah, it's cooler.

Shandin Pete:

And you got to be cool man.

Aaron Brien:

These days. We need all the help.

Shandin Pete:

We need all the help but I don't, I mean, I don't know. Well, let's listen to this tune that I pulled from the archives and then let me get your thoughts on it. You ready for it? Yeah here we go here we go.

Aaron Brien:

Can you hear it?

Shandin Pete:

yeah, yeah, thank you. Yeah, in a smooth sort of way.

Aaron Brien:

Wait one more green guest on my podcast. Oh my gosh. I mean honestly, let's think about one of my exes. Oh Boom.

Aaron Brien:

Boom.

Aaron Brien:

Dream guest on my podcast. Dream guest on my podcast.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, man, that's all.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah, yeah, man, that's old uh, standoff 1987, I don't know who was singing there, but kind of a catchy man. It has that classic like old agency black crossing. Oh yeah, man, it's a smooth.

Shandin Pete:

It's a smooth sign it's like this guy I seen walking the other day. And you know, I'm living here in Vancouver and I'm out with the old fam eating and look out the window and there's just thousands of people walking all over. Anyway, there's this one guy and you could pick him right out and you say, oh, that's an Indian man. You could pick him right out and you say, oh, that's a, that's an indian man. You could just tell. And that tune, you could play that tune, and you could just tell, I mean, it matched his walk. You know, you know how them kind of kind of indian guys walk there. They got a little bit of a belly, you know, and they got a shirt with the sleeves cut off and you can I bet you can guess what kind of shoes they're wearing, given that the oh, they're wearing those, um, they're they kind of look like.

Aaron Brien:

Are you talking about the running shoe?

Shandin Pete:

you kind of look well I know I'm just seeing what I'm seeing. I'm building the image.

Aaron Brien:

So indian guy t-shirt with the sleeves cut off oh, sleeves cut off and for some reason I thought you're talking about the belly and no, no, yeah, well, it was, but yeah sleeves cut off.

Shandin Pete:

He's got um, you know some what else he got on. What do you? What else he got on? Trunks, trunks, he got trunks on. And then what he's got on his feet oh yeah, big trunks, you got trunks on and then what he's got on his feet oh yeah, big trunks, and on his feet wow, this guy could either have basketball shoes or flip-flops oh, now let's okay.

Shandin Pete:

Not basketball shoes, but crocs. No, no. To be a little bit more specific now, this is probably a guy, maybe about, I don't know, maybe about six years younger than I, six to ten, somewhere around there, not basketball, oh man, not basketball shoes. No.

Aaron Brien:

Not flip-flops, skater shoes, come on man?

Shandin Pete:

No, Just think about it. Slides man? No, I don't know. Slides man? Oh slides, socks and slides.

Aaron Brien:

Socks and slides yeah, they're probably black. They're probably black slides too. God dang it. They're black, that's on me, man.

Shandin Pete:

I know You've been behind the desk too long. This week.

Aaron Brien:

I know man, I know, I know I should. You've been behind the desk too long this week. Oh man, yeah.

Shandin Pete:

You got to get out more. You got to get immersed with your people again. Anyway, that song reminded me of his walk, you know, because he's kind of walked belly first, you know all those. Indian guys walk belly first, you know, got a little bit of a strut. You know all those Indian guys walk belly first, you know, got a little bit of a strut. You know it's more of a bounce kind of a bounce. You do it more when you're walking with your pals, but if you're by yourself it's not so much.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah.

Shandin Pete:

But anyway.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah, belly first. I like that Walk belly first.

Shandin Pete:

If you're going to go into a place with confidence, you go belly first Go belly first.

Aaron Brien:

That really sets the tone. Oh yeah, yeah.

Shandin Pete:

People look and they see. What do they see? Your belly.

Aaron Brien:

And then they say this guy, this guy means business.

Shandin Pete:

This guy means business. This guy means business. He's got the business. I like the ones who dress up. They get all dressed up with the button-up shirt. I'm saying this because I know I'm probably going to be there in about 10 years or less. I don't know. They wear the button-up shirt and the sport coat, but it don't matter, the belly is still first. Those buttons are just tight. You know, you dare not button that sport coat. It won't hold at all.

Aaron Brien:

It ain't going to hold at all. You ever look at people and they dress up and it looks like they're going to court, like you see, like an indian dude, and you're like man, I shouldn't judge this guy like I shouldn't I shouldn't do this to him, but it really looks like he's going to court. That don't look like. That's how he dresses. He's not going to work. This guy's going to court. Hey man, I texted a song. Is there a way to play it? Yeah, yeah.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah, you can usually tell by the kind of shoes they're wearing. You know, the shoes just don't quite match because shoes is kind of an investment.

Aaron Brien:

You know you gotta yeah, if you're just gonna if you're just like what kind of a wearing it for a one-time deal, you're not gonna, yeah, fully invest in no, no, no, no reason.

Shandin Pete:

No reason to invest, so you just wear. You know you get the cheap ones that kind of look like plastic, I don't know. Okay, I'm gonna show you wanted me to play this song yeah, I mean, it reminded me of that song.

Aaron Brien:

You're just playing your request from crow. This is from crow.

Shandin Pete:

Okay, your request has been fulfilled. Okay, here we go.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah.

Shandin Pete:

It's kind of the same feel.

Aaron Brien:

Thank you, here we go.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah, mm-hmm. What is that? That's a hot dance song, as per the title.

Aaron Brien:

That's just what crows call, what everybody else calls war dance or grass dance, the war dance.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah, it has the same man.

Aaron Brien:

that's a good song.

Shandin Pete:

It is. It's got a little melody. You know that's what I think about it A little melody kind of floats around.

Aaron Brien:

So even though the crows are kind of in eastern Montana, we kind of get culturally by other tribes, get lumped in with like the Lakotas and the Arapahos and the Cheyennes, yeah. But when you listen to our music, to me it sounds more like how Nez Perce people sound and Salish people and Blackfeet people. Yeah, and this might contradict even what I've said in the past. But the Blackfoot people have a distinct beat, like kind of a tempo to their style. But the way songs are composed it seems like it fits like how Rocky Boy people sound and sing. It's more like I don't know, it just has a different. It's pretty nuanced. I guess what that is, because powwow music sounds like powwow music to everybody. But you can tell People know like people pay attention to singing. There's a certain it's hard to explain, like I was even trying to explain it. There's a young drum group here.

Aaron Brien:

They're just starting out out like they made their debut, like last week and yeah, they sound pretty good for a new drum group and one of my relatives sings with them and he came up he said well, how did we sound? I said you guys sound good young, sound young. And he took that as like a. I think he took that as kind of like a diss. But it's like no, no, like your song style is young, it's like young people shit, you know yeah, yeah like if you came out to me and you were singing.

Aaron Brien:

If your sound not and I don't mean sound like yeah literally like the way the songs you're choosing to sing. The songs they were young, real young, modern, and I wouldn't even say contempt, but there's almost like Mystic River, straight but young voices. Some of them are older dudes, but their voices are young.

Shandin Pete:

It seems like there's a temptation, when you're just starting out, not even even you know, when you kind of get past that starting out moment, like you realize that you need, um, you need your own songs, you need to sing your own material and if you don't have a kind of that gift or people to gift you, songs then seem like the songs are that are composed or something like that. You know, that's what it reminds me of, kind of I don't know, not refined, you know in a way, yeah and it's hard to explain unless you know singing.

Aaron Brien:

Even I'm not a great singer and I'm not even like as experienced as a lot of people, but I've sang enough with enough knowledgeable people to know like I've almost become more of a fan of it as opposed to being a singer anymore yeah but like listening to them. And then there's another drum group that's about two years ahead of them.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah.

Aaron Brien:

And you can tell like their voices are still young and they're still developing their voices, but like their beat is a lot more like there's a bounce to it. Now the songs they're choosing to sing have a little more liveliness to them. Whatever that is and that's hard to explain, but the the young, young people and I I'm guilty of it too yeah, songs that are fun to sing when you first start singing are like painted horse.

Aaron Brien:

You remember how like painted horse used to sound yeah, yeah the way, the way we are, songs, you know like hey, uh, wait, wait, oh wait, uh, hey, we oh wait, uh, hey, yeah, oh wait, oh well, hey, you know, I'm just making it up, but there's like, uh, like, and you're just kind of like like it's hard to explain, but you're like yeah like let us, let us bring it home.

Shandin Pete:

It's like telling a joke that you think's real funny and nobody laughs nobody laughs.

Aaron Brien:

But you're like, but your friends all laughed at it. So then you start a drum group together so like, yeah, I just think about it, and actually I've been thinking a lot about this the last week or so.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah.

Aaron Brien:

Because there was a pretty well-known singer here that passed away.

Aaron Brien:

Oh.

Aaron Brien:

And I'm sure you've heard of him, Austin Little Light Nighthawk Juniors, you know.

Aaron Brien:

Oh yeah.

Aaron Brien:

Like he was like the main guy. We're close in age but yeah, when they, when he first started that drum group with his brother and there's like there's a handful of them, yeah, I I started singing with them at the very beginning, you know, and I and I so I remember like that kind of that, the excitement of starting a drum group together, you know, or the excitement I I wouldn't say I started the drum group with them. I just kind of. It was almost like we we had like three, four guys we were singing on our own for a short time and they had their.

Aaron Brien:

They were like, hey, let's get together and sing, ended up not working out, but that excitement of, like we know, five songs yeah, right, and it's like and just thinking about like how much? Because you know I'm a human. So I started thinking about like, oh man, like he's gone, like I remember singing in his living room, or he come to our house and singing and I was thinking you don't know anything, like you don't know nothing so then, when you think about someone who starts a drum group, whether that drum group is good or not.

Aaron Brien:

It takes a lot of balls to start a drum group oh man, yeah, especially in communities where there's a lot of experienced singers which are all judges. They're all judges and coaches and critiquers of what you're gonna do yeah, so for for him to start a drum group at that time.

Aaron Brien:

I think it, it it's a it takes a lot man, takes a lot of guts to do that, because it's easy just to wait for somebody else to do it and then just sit with them just jump in sit with them you know, but like to say, no, we're going to do that and then to name your drum group after a really well-known drum group in Indian country, but also like kind of a foundation traditional drum, like people who know and are really respected, you know, yeah, the Night yeah, but also like kind of a foundation traditional drum, like people who know and are really respected, you know yeah

Aaron Brien:

the nighthawks, nighthawk singers and all that. So, yeah, so today, when I saw those young drums singing and then thinking about my own time starting out singing and not knowing anything but being like super jacked about it, like just wanting to sing, and just like, oh god, I don't care, I don't know, I didn't mean to cuss, but like, and for me it was always like round dance singing. You know, that's what got me started.

Aaron Brien:

But yeah, I was thinking about.

Aaron Brien:

I just watching those two young drums today and I was thinking they're like it just reminded me of when I was 20 or 18, 19, you know.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah.

Aaron Brien:

And thinking damn like. But in that amount of time, from 2000 to now, these are the two youngest drum groups to start. There's no, there's nobody singing, hmm.

Shandin Pete:

So Nighthawk started.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah and Crow here. So Nighthawk juniors started roughly around then 2001, 2002.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah.

Aaron Brien:

So since from that time to now, there's really hasn't been.

Aaron Brien:

Hmm.

Aaron Brien:

So it's good, right, it's good. I think so. Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's, it's good that there's some young singers yeah yeah, so then. So then that makes me think as a singer, or somebody who has experience in singing, when somebody asked my opinion, maybe I shouldn't give my opinion, maybe I should just say man, you guys sound good, keep it up, they're not asking for coaching yeah they're not asking for

Aaron Brien:

yeah, yeah because we just want, we didn't get a self-esteem boost yeah, because man them singers like sargi o'horn and and uh, gary pretty paint, yeah and um frank caplet and clayton mountain pocket, they were like not patient, necessarily Good singers, but they weren't patient, so like if your stick was off they'd hit your stick, you know. Oh yeah, and so like.

Shandin Pete:

Go a few another decade back, you'd get punched.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah, dude. And then you know traveling or starting to travel around, and people are strict like you couldn't even reach over the drum. No, no, pass things around like yeah, right and so, and people are very upfront like hey, don't do that, don't do that, don't do that so there's got to be that's kind of encouragement I, I don't know, it's kind of a problem.

Shandin Pete:

I, I think today, you know, you see that in a lot of things, you know, you don't, you don't want to hurt people's feelings, you gotta reserve the critique in a certain way if you because, if you like, if you tell the truth, that's gonna, um, you know, not encourage people and they might give up like real, real sensitive. You know that's an issue you think it is.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah, no, it's an issue. But also, at the same time too, there's some benefit to those strict people. There's certain there is, because one. So so my cousin, uh, my cousin comes up we visit, a lot about singing, yeah. And then I said there's, there's more to singing than just singing a song, structurally just singing a song. There's all this drum culture that's almost separate from even powwow yeah regular culture. There's this yeah drum culture. It's like drum rules even like where you're sitting at the drum is orchestrated and a lot of times you don't even have to talk about it, right?

Shandin Pete:

you already know yeah.

Aaron Brien:

So like if I show up to a drum I've never sat at before and I'm just like, hey, I want to sing a song with you guys and they're like welcoming right, go for it. I I'm not gonna go sit right by their lead singer, right, I'm gonna like sit kind of over here. I'm not gonna like try to take down beats or like ask for leads or say like hey, sing this song.

Aaron Brien:

It's like I'm just here, I'm just hitchhiking man, I'm yeah, I just want to sing a song and and so you learn. Like these weird rules, like that. I notice young kids don't learn because they're learning how to sing in school. What yeah, like say, they go to school and they join an Indian club and they learn?

Shandin Pete:

how to sing at school.

Aaron Brien:

Oh, right, right, right.

Aaron Brien:

So at school it's like it's a club Everybody's got to. You can't be mean to everybody, oh but.

Aaron Brien:

Oh yeah.

Aaron Brien:

You start singing with, like experienced singers who, where their foundation is like ceremony, yeah, and then also like their dedication is to the drum, so like if these old guys would be like we're going to set up this weekend. Whatever they said, they really do, like they really sit there and they really, you know young guys, they just and I'm guilty of it too, because I I learned the hard way too I had people I got kicked off of a drum before for that like just being too relaxed. So chill yeah.

Aaron Brien:

So I wonder if these young guys, if they were ever to experience that, would it discourage them to the point where they quit singing? Or would they be like, well, that's just the way singing is, so I gotta step up. I don't so my in my mind. I don't think that's how they think. They think all those guys are a-holes I'm not gonna be, around them. But then when you realize you're like no, that's the culture of singing. There is a hierarchy in singing whether we like it or not, there is yeah, yeah yeah, yeah, I, you're right, man, that and that I don't know.

Shandin Pete:

There's a couple problems there and I know we talk about we talk about problems, a lot about issues, and um this, this misconception about, um, our life ways, if you will like. Oh, there's no. There were no hierarchies among native people and thought, and everyone had a voice and an opinion, and all that and that sounds cool. You know, it sounds like yeah, I guess, but that's not. I don't, that's not true, man. I don't think it's true. I don't think, unless I don't know, unless maybe the thing you're talking about now is, uh, and I don't want to say it, but I'm gonna say it, I hope I don't set you off Are you ready? Maybe it's a colonial construct. It seeped its way into tradition.

Aaron Brien:

So you don't think there was a, you don't think all these rules existed in the past.

Shandin Pete:

I don't, I don't think that.

Aaron Brien:

I don't.

Shandin Pete:

Not at all. But some may Think that, think oh well, you know, it's just Cause our ways.

Aaron Brien:

Give me, give me an example. Give me an example of a rule that you think exists now, that didn't exist in the past. So I have some idea of what you're saying.

Shandin Pete:

Oh, I don't even know.

Aaron Brien:

Because right now you're just shitting all over the place. I'm just kidding, I'm just kidding. No, I want to know. I want to know. No, I don't know.

Shandin Pete:

I'm just playing off of the stereotype that is continually perpetuated among non-Indians and Indians alike, that our way of doing things was largely non-hierarchical. You hear that often, right, yeah?

Aaron Brien:

that you're saying, that you agree. You agree that our system was non-hierarchical.

Shandin Pete:

No, I agree that it is, that it was.

Aaron Brien:

So you're agreeing with me then?

Shandin Pete:

I'm agreeing with you, man, yeah.

Aaron Brien:

Oh, you made it sound like you were disagreeing with me.

Shandin Pete:

Well, I wanted to argue. I wanted to get you on it. I wanted you were disagreeing with me. Well, I wanted to argue. I wanted to get. I wanted a good old-fashioned disagreement.

Aaron Brien:

No, I I think there was, yeah, levels of hierarchy within tribes. I don't think tribes that's like real modern right, like this yeah egalitarian, like everyone's equals kind of. Thing it's like man I. I just don't think it was like that, you know yeah I, I, I think of course there's an unspoke, there's unspoken shit, you know yeah yeah, and without a doubt, whether whether we want to believe it or not, in singing there's a hierarchy.

Aaron Brien:

There is, there is yeah and like, and if there was ever A really, really Astute Native researcher that understood singing and wanted to write about it, I don't think it would take much To like, see it, to like Okay, this is how, like me, someone like me. Yeah, we'll go to what people call a traditional powwow, right?

Shandin Pete:

yeah, okay, today's version today's version of this generation's version. Yeah, yeah, which is just what, not a non-contest power right and let's just say, let's just say, let's just say um yeah. Let's say, let's say black stone, black lodge, let's just say, let's just say let's just say um, yeah.

Aaron Brien:

Let's say, let's say Blackstone, black Lodge. Let's say Black Lodge. Singers were at this thing, right, okay, got it. Do you think I could just walk in and say oh, I want to sing and go up to that drum and pull my chair up and start singing?

Shandin Pete:

No.

Aaron Brien:

No, they wouldn't, wouldn't happen.

Shandin Pete:

Unless you're known, happen Unless you're known.

Aaron Brien:

Unless they know me Now. Could Mike LaFramboise do that? Or John Stiffarm? Yeah, probably, man. They're probably not going to turn him away, right yeah?

Aaron Brien:

And me as a singer.

Aaron Brien:

I would know I'd be like of course. Yeah, of course Go ahead, and course yeah, of course you're gonna let them go ahead and say it's safe.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah, say what you're gonna say oh, I'll say, or even even for that matter, would they even do the same thing that you are describing?

Aaron Brien:

no see but also they wouldn't do that yeah because they. That's just not even their thing. For one, I mixed genres there. For people who don't know. I mixed Two straight singers singing with a contempt group, yeah, so it's probably not even going to happen, but yeah.

Shandin Pete:

But yeah, we get the.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah.

Shandin Pete:

We get the flavor of it.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah, it's really nuanced so sorry, that's.

Shandin Pete:

You're pretty sorry today? No, that's. You're pretty sorry today. Um, no, that's that's so. That's just human nature. I mean you, you can go to, you can talk about anything. Let's talk about plumbing. Okay, 100 or I don't know, 30 year, a 30 year, 30 years in the in the business plumber um is not just gonna invite to you know someone who's just starting out to go do a real tough job. Right, there's a hierarchy, there's a, there's a order. You're gonna choose someone who's a bit more senior to help them with the tough job. It's just about experience.

Aaron Brien:

It's about experience and knowledge in that particular time in time I'm put in time, put in and it's a combination of that, because I've also seen people who sat at the drum for years, years and years and years and years and they still are considered like they're not someone who you would be like yeah, put on those. So it's a combination of those. So, like certain plumbers, right, yeah, you could put five years in, I could put 15 years in. After a certain point you're just experienced. But then also, what did you do in that time?

Aaron Brien:

yeah and people recognize that, like I think I'm not even a big powwow guy, but I think it's also a good way to like gauge social behaviors of contemporary native people, because it's the largest social thing we do, right yeah, yeah, cross tribal, intertribal social affair, yeah yeah yeah at least, at least in yeah, at least in the plains, and and the rockies here

Aaron Brien:

and the rockies, yeah, yeah yeah, you get outside of that too, though it starts to change, because then it it's it's so new with their people that they haven't they actually don't have those hang-ups yeah, yeah and so that's why some people say go to certain regions to powwow, because they like them. I think partly because there's a freedom to it yeah, yeah, there's not those hang-ups.

Aaron Brien:

There's not these weird hang-ups, you know sure, sure anyway, I never intended for this to be um a podcast about singing, but yeah, I was thinking about it because austin, the passing of austin little light, and then actually there was another passing of a guy named mike mike tucks, different, who oh yeah pretty respected singer from fort belknap yeah, he passed away too, so two well-known singers yeah um, yeah, yeah, two very different cultural journeys.

Shandin Pete:

You know both those people, so sure yeah, well, that's pretty interesting what's up, what's up, what's up what you're talking about is what's up? Those are all interesting things in it, like I mean, sure it's. It's very specific, like the. The thing you're talking about is very specific but, like you said, that phenomenon of the gathering of Native people to do this very specific thing, there are expressions of the way we think and the way we act and our mannerisms still exist there today.

Shandin Pete:

Now we don't want to get into the debate about whether it's ceremonial or not. You know, I think we we talked about that, but that's less of the less of the of a of a thing that I that I kind of emphasize.

Shandin Pete:

It's more that that the way people are really interested in, in, in how, um, native or indigenous people think, and there's a lot of um I think there's a lot of generalizations that don't quite capture the complexity and the thing, and the thing you brought up right now is a good example of that Like relational thought, you know, and holistic thought, non-reductive thinking, you know. You can go on and on about these different attributes that are common in academic literature, about an Indigenous way of knowing and doing things, and one of them I guess that you hear a lot that I was kind of mentioning is this non-hierarchical sort of fluffy love, love, sort of lovey feeling that you get when you're interacting with native people. I think it's far too romantic. You know we're humans and we have.

Shandin Pete:

You know, we got feelings and we have experience that tells us Well. So this is a good example. If you don't discipline your kid, if you just give them love, are they going to grow up right? Native people. We're not just all free, loving, relational, uh, um uh. Non non-hierarchical beings. We're subject to the rules of humanity, just like anybody else. I see it far too much. I see it far too much and people write about it still today. Indigenous scholars write about it and it just Everybody's voice matters. Everybody.

Aaron Brien:

It's like I feel like these are people. So there's, there's this weird Thing in academics where Native scholars if you were to take the number of Native scholars, just for this sake of conversation, master's degree and higher that are practitioners of their beliefs, not by their own standards but by their community standards Like, say, their community says like, if we went to the communities and said, hey, you pick out four scholars from your community, yeah, that you would say are practitioners, not people who are just talking about. Yeah, I think you'll find that the overwhelming majority is people who their own communities don't see them as practitioners of their culture, right? Do you think that's fair to say? Like, just from your observations? Is that unfair to say?

Shandin Pete:

You know, be honest, man, ah, man, well, yeah, I think so. I think so. You didn't want to agree with me.

Aaron Brien:

No, I did want to agree with you, but you didn't want to agree with me.

Shandin Pete:

No, I did want to agree with you, but I, I didn't want to cast too wide of a net, you know, because, well, no, okay, yeah, I'm, I agree and I'm just thinking about it. What?

Aaron Brien:

but I, we can only talk about our region really like I don't know what, the southwest or yeah, so everyone kind of knows what we're doing up here, but yeah, well, would you agree or disagree?

Shandin Pete:

no, I I think I agree, I think that I agree. And, um, I think one of the issues is there's, um, you know, there's a sort of this uh, well, okay, you know the state we're in, you understand the state we're in as native people. Where we we're, we're playing catch up with certain things that have been lost. Well, there's, I guess there's two different routes, right, some people want to play catch up and try to revive things that have been lost. There's another group of people maybe they're sort of the same ones, but they're trying to revise or or uh, or uh, repurpose traditions to meet today. Not consciously, it's just like this unconscious effort that's going on, right, so there's kind of those two little streams of people and in the meantime, we have this other thing happening, this other thing happening with, with the things that we need to to live in a modern world, right, education, education, people. I mean, you remember when you're a kid, everybody tell you got to go to school, you got to do this, that well, yeah, and I'm a crow.

Aaron Brien:

So we come from the most famous indian education quote ever.

Shandin Pete:

Oh, yeah, yeah, let's hear it.

Aaron Brien:

With with um. With the white man's education, you're his equal. Without it, you are his victim.

Shandin Pete:

Chief money cruise right, yeah, yeah, there it is so it was freaking pushed.

Aaron Brien:

It was pushed on us yeah, yeah, yeah, so you.

Shandin Pete:

So you got that, you got that, those two things going right. Meantime, all the all, the um, I mean what I would view as sort of the traditionalists, right, the ones who grew up knowing a way that we didn't. They never had the opportunity to go to school and I don't know if they were interested if that, if I had the same opportunity that we had today, would they go to school? I don't know, I have no idea, but you have like these two sort of things that are mismatched, right. So traditionalists generally, that that from what I call, like what I think of traditionalists that were, you know, raised by their grandparents, whose grandparents were raised by a generation that was the closest, as we know, to sort of the, the tp days, or, you know, the like the, the posts, like really post reservation days, when yeah, yeah things were as intact as we can I mean you're limiting the the field like quite a bit now yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Shandin Pete:

So you got, so you got this phenomenon going on and so meanwhile these two tracks are sort of moving forward, and so you just don't have that opportunity for those things to intersect. And additionally, I'm going to throw something else on top. If you think about those who had the opportunity to become educated, those who have multi-generational success in achieving advanced education, those aren't, those aren't generally what you think of as the traditionalist type of people. No, no, I mean not. Not, I'm not making any judgment about any of it, but I'm just saying that's the fact. It seems like the facts I should say yes yeah, and I think that's what.

Aaron Brien:

That's what people have a hard time with yeah, yeah yeah, people have a hard time with well for one self-reflection right and looking at their own stuff like I wouldn't say I fit a lot of those even you know like. But yeah, but I also recognize all of that like I'm. I'm one of the few people who even talk about it. I don't hear people have these conversations, do you no?

Aaron Brien:

no, no, no, it's a tough conversation to have, I think because it it also points, sheds light on your own stuff yeah you know, and it's like people don't want to sit around and talk about, especially in academics, because everybody's right, everybody has a voice and and everybody, yeah, okay, so for example in the grass dance ceremony.

Aaron Brien:

Okay.

Aaron Brien:

Like in Crow, here we have like districts yeah, so the last two districts that are, I would say, somewhat active, meaning that that ceremony has Been practiced in the last 30 years.

Aaron Brien:

Is the Lodgegrass district and the Black Lodge district. I hold a position In that society, in that ceremony for the Lodgegrass district. So in some ways, right yeah, I hold some authority with that ceremony. Okay, I'm the drum, I'm the drum owner, right Okay. But do I know everything about what I'm even supposed to do, or even about that ceremony? No, yeah, I've never actually done the ceremony, I just hold the position, I have the title. So how many scholars do you know they'll meet them both, like where there's experience plus title. So you have the authorization of somebody, like if some yeah oh man, we actually had this, this.

Aaron Brien:

This brought up a pretty. This reminds me of a pretty controversial topic that you and I were part of.

Shandin Pete:

Oh, really what.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah, where we had the owner of a certain ceremony, the owner of it who? Wanted to research its origin.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah.

Aaron Brien:

And the IRB denied him, denied him yeah he was the researching scholar yeah and actually the owner of that particular ceremony with his people yeah and the institutional review board yeah. Denied his own research? Yeah, and that is to me like mind blowing. Yeah, I don't know why what we were talking about just now made me think of that.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah.

Aaron Brien:

But it's like who holds more authority in that research, the IRB or that person?

Aaron Brien:

Yeah.

Aaron Brien:

I'm like why it's his. Yeah, he's the owner of it.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah, that's really complicated.

Aaron Brien:

I mean, no, it's not complicated, it's pretty simple yeah for us, for us, it's pretty simple, but for them, like I remember even having these conversations and we're like wait, how do they not get it?

Aaron Brien:

yeah, yeah At what point if they were practitioners, the institutional review board at a tribal college, if they were practitioners at a basic level, they would say, well, at the end of the day, he holds the authority of that particular ceremony and if he's doing research on his own ceremony, that's who we would consult with. Anyway, if somebody came in and wanted to do the research on that ceremony, they would say, well, we would actually need to. We should figure out what the practitioners or the owners of those ceremonies think of that.

Aaron Brien:

Well, this is the owner that's asking the question and why he it's so bizarre man, I forgot about that we're going to need him to read an informed consent to himself and, in addition, himself. Well, because the hangup was that he was going to talk about sacred knowledge, right and like things that the public doesn't need to know.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah, yeah.

Aaron Brien:

But that he also is the person who can say who gets to know? Yeah, because he's the owner of that, and we respect that authority. Yeah, it was recognized, people understood that that person owns that ceremony, so it's like, okay, well, I have no say over him, and that you know.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah.

Aaron Brien:

Whether I believe he should have done it or not, it's, it's yeah it's not my place to say right that's like this, yeah, yeah, oh, I'm sorry, no, no, in fact no, let me hear the fact

Aaron Brien:

and, in fact, another issue that was brought up about this, this idea of understanding your community and where authorization is, and practitioner versus non practitioner. We had another researcher that just wanted to film somebody yeah, doing sign language, and but, because that person yeah was seen outside of the popularity circle, it was like, no, we're shutting it down oh, yeah, but it was like. Well, that person's not even going after knowledge from the video.

Aaron Brien:

The person they're videoing, she already knew the signs she was just having this guy act out the signs for plain sign language and I was like I'm taking crazy pills yeah, yeah and then. So then I thought, wait, wait, a second. The irb has now lost touch, the board has now lost reality of what their job is supposed to do. Yeah, yeah, their job is not supposed to protect native scholars from native people yeah our native people from native scholars yeah if their job is supposed to, is people take being advantage of? Are people fully aware of what they're sharing? Who they're sharing information?

Aaron Brien:

to and for what and for why?

Aaron Brien:

Yeah.

Aaron Brien:

But at no point should we be telling our own people that they can't talk to their own people. It was crazy to me. It was, it was.

Aaron Brien:

I forgot about that man.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah, was it was I forgot about that man.

Aaron Brien:

yeah, it's it, it would be a really interesting uh case study to, yeah, to really know what we were, what, what did you want to talk about? What we were?

Shandin Pete:

just talking about. I don't know what I was talking about. Oh yeah, um, what was I talking about? God dang it. I don't remember. I had a point.

Aaron Brien:

I was getting to a point I know I'm sorry I messed up, that's my bad?

Shandin Pete:

well, no, I you know, I waded through your stories about singing, which is really important because it set the stage for this important, uh conversation about authenticity. I I hogged the car no, no, no, no, no, no, no. This is important. So, given all that we're talking about, okay, so number one yeah let's walk through it.

Shandin Pete:

Number one this uh phenomenon of of singing and, uh, young singers um falling into a hierarchy of when, what, how, when and where to do things right. Yeah, there's a heart. You can't just walk into any old, any old powwow and sit down with anybody, you know. It just doesn't work like that. Now, I had a question about that before I get to walk into the number. The second thing we talked about what if this happened? Because they see this a lot and I want you to take on this because this falls in line to what I'm going to talk about about this. Next, this next idea of tradition.

Shandin Pete:

So let's, let's okay, entertain me on this one so let's say there's let's go back to the scenario of the of this, this celebration. There's a famous drum group there, well-known across Indian country and into North America or American Canada, yep, okay, and then some I don't want to say a nobody, but nobody knows this person comes in and wants to sing. So they approach this drum and if they're seeped in the literature of indigenous matters, academic indigenous matters, they would bring the lead singer a gift of tobacco and ask to sing with them. Now, would that drum group, do you think, in your opinion, allow them to sing with them? Now, would that drum group, do you think, in your opinion, allow them to sing with them?

Aaron Brien:

Well, that's a tough one, because that also yeah. I think the majority of drum groups that are like made it that far and like are well-known. I think they would. I think the majority of them, but I think there's a few that are also savvy enough to have an out.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah, yeah.

Aaron Brien:

For sure, man, you could sit down, man, for sure. Thanks, man, I appreciate it. Come and sing a couple of songs with us, yeah, yeah.

Shandin Pete:

I agree, I agree. But let's change the scenario now and let's see if it changes. Let's pretend same thing, same drum group, same person who doesn't know, nobody with some tobacco. Let's say this is a contest, powwow. Now.

Aaron Brien:

No.

Shandin Pete:

It's straight up. No, no Big difference between non-contest contest, powwow power. And why? Why is it such a big difference?

Aaron Brien:

Money, something's on the line, man, money's on the line. And in fact, the way that person's told no, the comfort level is so Much different too. Like the lead singer would be totally comfortable with saying no, can't sing with us, contest, contest, can't sing with us yeah um, also, it kind of depends on where you're at, like.

Aaron Brien:

Um, I feel like the further away that drum group gets from home, the more likely they are to actually let somebody sit down with them. Oh, yeah, yeah, that's true. Because, yeah, because I think, um for one, the people who are going to approach a drum group like that and try to sit down are typically singers, people who know how to sing.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah, you know because someone who doesn't like singing doesn't know the difference between um young spirit and dirty corner singers. You know they don't know the difference, so like so, and if there's there's nothing on on line on the line, you know it's it's. It's more likely to be like that's cool. But I actually think they probably the local, they're closer, they are to home most people know if they're an inviting drum group or not, like most people know like don't even go ask them yeah, yeah like if if this actually happened to me once my nephew came up, I'm gonna go ask such and such.

Aaron Brien:

Sing with them. I said don't do that yeah, because you knew and he said he said why? And I said they're not gonna let you sit down anyway and they're just gonna get your feelings hurt. He said he kind of laughed at me, said no, I'm gonna go. So he did and guess what? They denied him to get his feelings hurt and got his feelings hurt. Yeah, not really. I don't think he actually got his feelings hurt. Yeah, not really.

Aaron Brien:

I don't think he actually got his feelings hurt, but it was it was it's a real thing, it's a real thing, where people do deny, and so I think that was Sure, but at the same time, that's how you find out. You just go try, just ask.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah.

Aaron Brien:

Cause he likes singing right, he likes to sing so in, and he's like I'll sing with whoever man, I'll just go and sit at a drum and have a good time.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah.

Aaron Brien:

Because that's the vibe of the pala, or the vibe of the dance, if it's a non-contest dance and everyone's just kind of singing. You get to a point, though, where you're good enough to sing, even at those things where they'll probably say yeah, you know.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah, yeah.

Aaron Brien:

They'll say, yeah, anyway, I didn't mean for this to be like, let's just talk about singing and stuff.

Shandin Pete:

We're already in it. Man, it's too late. Okay, Wait. So that was point. Number one Talked about singing, Defined a pretty important construct that you know it's not. There's more to it. There's more to it than what one might think there is.

Aaron Brien:

I think that's the point, that's the point, that's the point to it there's more to it and there's a hierarchy.

Shandin Pete:

It's not just this wide open thing where you just show up and you can. You can follow, uh, what people are using quite a bit these days. You can follow a protocol and become accepted in a certain way, but at a certain level, right? You can't just show up with a little bit of tobacco and say I want to lead all your songs, the next five songs, yeah.

Aaron Brien:

It's also just recognizing like these are journeyman singers man these are professionals. Yeah, yeah, like if you're someone who casually sings, even though you can sing yeah it's just like man yeah, yeah, yeah, dislike man, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Shandin Pete:

You don't yeah.

Aaron Brien:

Maybe leave him alone.

Shandin Pete:

Don't go recommending songs and yeah, nothing like that. Yeah.

Aaron Brien:

You know that. Would you consider yourself a professional singer?

Shandin Pete:

No, no, no, neither would I, I would not Because it's not something I'm doing regularly.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah, it's not like I think it would take a summer.

Aaron Brien:

It would take one summer of singing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's like riding a bike, right?

Shandin Pete:

no, yeah, I mean, yeah, you have. There's certain things you have to get immerse yourself in to become to that level, and people can get to that quicker depending on what you know, how much you know and and your ability, all those things.

Aaron Brien:

There's cheat codes too.

Shandin Pete:

There's some cheat codes.

Aaron Brien:

Oh, you feed the drum.

Shandin Pete:

Let's not talk about the cheat codes have your family feed that drum. There's some real You're invited.

Aaron Brien:

You're invited to Sean Dean Pete's.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah. There's some boys You're invited to.

Aaron Brien:

Sean Dean's for dinner. They walk over and you feed them Little Caesar's pizza.

Shandin Pete:

I've got a real negative cheat code. I know it's true and it happens, but I don't want to talk about it.

Aaron Brien:

You can't do that, come on.

Shandin Pete:

Well, you know, if you share a certain substance abuse problem with certain people, then you're in You're in.

Aaron Brien:

You party with so-and-so.

Shandin Pete:

You're in. That's kind of the ugly side of things. I don't know if that's like that as much anymore, but it probably is. But even then it requires you have to have skill, you have to have some sort of aptitude for the thing. That's not the only thing. So that leads to the second point you made, which is the practitioner versus the non-practitioner. We've talked about this a lot. It doesn't matter what you do. So okay, here's a good example. In a class I had the other day I showed a picture of, um, these fisheries biologists right and they're, they're cutting open this fish. You know, they got a notebook, just the picture. So I'm asking my class are these guys scholars?

Shandin Pete:

and they see the you know the trappings of scholarship uh field book and the right in the rain was the right yeah it's probably right in the rain and a scalpel and they're wearing rubber gloves, you know, looks like they're doing something scholarly, you know, studying fish. Then I showed them a picture, I mean, yeah, a picture of, uh, some native fishermen, you pulling a bunch of salmon out of the sea. I said are these guys scholars now? Oh no, those aren't scholars at all. And I say which one do you think understands fish population better? And they pause for a second. Okay, yeah, those Fisher people. Of course they understand fish population.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah that, that. That would probably even be the same for white fishermen Like fish population yeah that would probably even be the same for white fishermen.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah, of course.

Aaron Brien:

In the Bering Sea, or something People really understand.

Aaron Brien:

Movement, it's the people who are out there, yeah.

Aaron Brien:

Scholars don't know nothing. 90% of the time man scholars don't know anything.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah.

Aaron Brien:

Not anything useful. I mean for real dude, get them. Well know, think about this. Like we were talking before we recorded we were talking about horses. Yeah, bits you know put in a mouth yeah there's a big difference in somebody who like rides horses and somebody who like rides horses and somebody who makes horses. You know what I mean? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So like somebody who understands bits like what there's for like yeah, how to get a horse and into that bit? Yeah, you could ride a bunch of horses like your whole life.

Aaron Brien:

You could ride horses all the time yeah that don't mean, you make horses, though right, there's a special group of people that make horses so to me it's the same thing. It's like I can understand it. I can even say all the stuff. The horse stuff I don't make horses, though, man yeah, yeah, yeah I've tried, I've done all right with a couple I've also ruined some, you know what I mean.

Aaron Brien:

So it's like um yeah, it's the same thing like these, these who would you call the scholar versus, again, the practitioner, and who knows more about it? Man, I'm starting to think the practitioner knows more. It's the same thing with the fish, the fisheries people, man, yeah, yeah, the scholar or the practitioner, sure, and that's sort of the, the, the um, what is the word that mike likes to use?

Shandin Pete:

the dichotomy, the dichotomy that's trying to bring in is, um, it's the what. So you have to, you have to understand what the purpose is of the thing that you want to know. And and so for the scholar, the fisheries biologist, they have a certain purpose to fulfill. That's not the same as the fisherman, or I should say fisher person, because they're doing what they're doing for a different aim. However, their understandings might overlap somewhat, but and I mentioned this in the class I said how long does it take to get a PhD in fisheries biology? I don't know. Three to six years, you know. And then, how long does it get? How long do you have to be a fisher person to understand fish population and movement? And I don't know how long it takes. No, I don't know.

Shandin Pete:

But the fact is they're still fishing and they're still utilizing that knowledge in a particular way, whereas the fish biologists maybe, they study only one certain fish, I don't know. Then I got caught in this trap of of I don't knows, I don't knows, and I think it's the same thing. You're talking about the practitioner versus the non-practitioner, the scholar versus the, the doer and at some point I think, in, in um, in indigenous academics. You know, you get. You get the few moments where you know that the scholar is also a practitioner and you can tell by the manner in which they speak of things and the authority in which they have in those things and the confidence yeah, yeah, yeah.

Shandin Pete:

So I don't know that was asking the right questions. Asking the right questions and the right question and of the right thing. Yeah, not wasting time. You know, not wasting time. That was the second point, and then the third point I don't know what it is yet I'm trying to get to this third point and well, yeah, I interrupted you man.

Shandin Pete:

Well, no, no, no, it's all right, that's right. I didn't have a very coherent plan, so this is the one thing I wanted to talk about and sort of ties into both of these. So singing is a is a um, would you? Would you classify that as a tradition? Yeah yeah, it's a tradition. Yeah, yeah, it's a tradition, right? And practitioners, of course, also engage in tradition, right? Would you say yes? What about scholars?

Aaron Brien:

I agree.

Shandin Pete:

So let's say the non-practitioner scholar, do they engage in tradition? Yes, yeah, sure, oh sure, yeah, sure, sure, sure. I picked up this manner of speaking where I say this a lot, sure from uh, um, these international students, they would say that a lot and I thought it was kind of funny. It's sort of it's all from my perspective, they're all international students.

Aaron Brien:

Okay, okay, okay, mr turtle island 2024.

Shandin Pete:

So yeah, they said sure, and I thought I had to tell them what sounds kind of dismissive. You know that really is. Yeah, somebody says, somebody say sure, sounds like non-committal. Anyway, back to what I was saying. So what is the tradition? I'm curious about this thing of tradition. What is the tradition and who defines it?

Aaron Brien:

go, I mean, anyone can define a tradition.

Shandin Pete:

Okay, right, it's repetitive, something repetitive, right yeah yeah, okay, I think, so I agree we wear plaid on christmas every year.

Aaron Brien:

It's just what we do, it's what mom wants. It's um, I want you to wear your flannel jammies on christmas day. It's just what we. It's just what mom wants, you know. And like mom says, when I'm dead and gone, I still want you guys to do that, because it'll just make me feel good. You know, so we do. That's what Grammy used to do.

Aaron Brien:

That's what Grams did. You guys remember her heart, Such a big heart. Everyone knows Christmas was her favorite holiday and she loved to have a Christmas ham. We'd have a fire outside and she'd tell us stories of her childhood and just that. We should be thankful, because she lived through the depression and she said there was a time she couldn't afford clothes and so they had to wear their clothes for school and for sleep and for play. They're clothes for school and for sleep and for play, and so that's why we wear pajamas flannel pajamas on Christmas as a reminder of what Graham and what mom wanted.

Shandin Pete:

You're monologuing man.

Aaron Brien:

A good little monologue going there. I do a good white person, I do a great white person, I do a great, I do a great white pretty good man, yeah, so so tradition so tradition, tradition.

Shandin Pete:

I mean you could, you could start a tradition in. Can you start a tradition in a generation, in a single generation? Yeah, yeah, for sure, of course, right, I think that's right. So then, um, oh, okay, from from your, from your advanced schooling, what's the purpose of tradition?

Aaron Brien:

it could be a lot of things, man, man. Okay, you could have social traditions like gatherings and just to get together, and you could also have traditions that renew stuff. The renewal of something, yeah.

Shandin Pete:

But what's? The purpose, though Like why.

Aaron Brien:

Oh, I don't know, tell me why. What?

Shandin Pete:

No, I don't know why.

Aaron Brien:

I don't either.

Shandin Pete:

Let's go back to Grammy and the plaid pants. Oh, okay, grandma, what would be the purpose?

Aaron Brien:

of maintaining that tradition.

Aaron Brien:

In reverence because it brings the family together. Yeah, I think that's it, I don't know.

Shandin Pete:

That's one thing I think Brings people together. Yeah, it can be. Brings people together. Yeah, I think that's it.

Aaron Brien:

I don't know that's one thing I think Brings people together. Yeah, it can be.

Aaron Brien:

Brings people together.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah, it affirms potentially values and norms.

Aaron Brien:

It can yeah, it can, or even just a renewal of certain histories. Maybe you get together and tell family history. Yeah yeah, yeah.

Shandin Pete:

It came over on the boat. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, how many came over on the boat? Yeah, how many generations? Has your family celebrated christmas.

Aaron Brien:

Sorry, three, three generations, three generations of christmas maybe my great-grandparents, maybe maybe not in the way you do now, though, of course no, I think the way we do it now, I think it only went two generations, because then I'm not a huge Christmas guy. So I guess you could say we started over in something.

Aaron Brien:

Oh yeah, oh yeah, yeah yeah.

Shandin Pete:

Okay, I'm trying to think of my punchline here, uh, my wrap-up on this idea of tradition, oh yeah, so um yeah, we're.

Aaron Brien:

This podcast is a testament to learning disabilities we're gonna find a sponsor. That's uh I wasn very funny. I wasn't very funny in this episode either, I don't know why. Well, I kind of made it somber.

Shandin Pete:

I know you started out talking about people that passed.

Aaron Brien:

It was a memorial episode.

Shandin Pete:

Well, okay, let's bring it home then, so tradition can start in a generation. Tradition affirms social norms and other constructs, the things that people think are somewhat important, right? Something like that, right, and the important thing, I guess, guess is that traditions can change, or they ought to change, depending on the needs of of people and individuals yeah those are all true. Um, how do, how do, how do we define or can we define? This is the, this is the thing. So there's this thing called um traditional ecological knowledge, right?

Shandin Pete:

there we go there we go, there we go, boom. So what? What would make something traditional about a piece of ecological knowledge? It could be something that was revealed in a past generation, right? Yeah, yeah Could be. Yeah, could be right. Or it could be something that was generations old. One of the two, right?

Aaron Brien:

Yes.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah, yes, yeah. So traditional ecological knowledge and any use of tradition doesn't necessarily imply old-timey.

Aaron Brien:

No, no, no, no, no no yeah, I get what you're saying now, but yeah, yeah, yeah no, and I think that's where we, we, we mess up yeah it's because we've somehow equated antiquity with authenticity.

Aaron Brien:

You know, Right, right, right.

Shandin Pete:

And you've said that I think that phrase a couple of times previous.

Aaron Brien:

I think I said because Robert Lowy, an anthropologist, said that crows value success over antiquity.

Shandin Pete:

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, that's the one. Yeah said the crows value success over antiquity. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's the one. Yeah, help me understand that a bit better, because I'm when I hear you say it, I struggle somewhat to understand.

Aaron Brien:

I mean, I get what you're saying, but he's he's talking specifically about ceremony, um, so he's talking about ceremony yeah, so like specifically individual medicine bundles. So yeah, there's some medicine bundles that are discarded, some are kept and people always say, well, wouldn't you want to just pass those down? I think, and I that's a very modern approach to to to those things, some sacred objects, they'll say, well, they don't work anymore yeah this guy died from smallpox.

Aaron Brien:

Why would we want to keep his medicine? It didn't protect him. So then they would say that they would say, well, we'll just get rid of it, you know yeah so because you value what works you. So you look at somebody. You say they're successful in life. What do they have, what do they use? So that's what holds value there's. Look at people's good fortune and their luck versus their bad luck and their misfortune, and all that you.

Aaron Brien:

It's not as simplified as that, but it is simplified too at the same time right just look, you just look. Just because it old. It's old doesn't mean it works, you know. And right um right, or vice versa, just because it's new doesn't mean it's bad.

Shandin Pete:

Right right, right Right, Native.

Aaron Brien:

American church is a good example of that. The peyote religion. It came here, as it did a lot of places, and it erupted like it took off, you know.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah.

Aaron Brien:

So that doesn't mean it's bad that someone practices it. It clearly has found a home with people you know and how they value it, what it's done for them. We can't judge that. That's up to them, you know. I think that's kind of what Loie's talking about. So he's talking about practices and beliefs and ceremonies are based off of success and not off of antiquity, meaning just because it's, just because it's old and yeah to me, it's a very practical approach to your own belief I think so.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah, I think the idea that I was kind of um wondering about was um, um, and I think I've said this before that a lot of uh, climate science has this understanding that traditional knowledge, traditional ecological knowledge, is going to solve some of the problems we have. And, um, I think we sometimes equate that with a time from the past, but it reminds me of the fisher people, the practitioners, and they probably are carrying or generating new knowledge of their ecologies in which they survive off of, and I think those would probably be more relevant today than a piece of TEK from 200 years ago. I don't know.

Aaron Brien:

I don't know. I'm just kind of of curious. I think it's all situational. It's like I feel like it's all it. I don't know, man, it can be even just what the person needs to hear too, like some stuff that's valuable to you in that moment ain't valuable to me, you know, in the brand right. I don't know though I don't know either.

Shandin Pete:

I don't know, but I don't know. Those are some of the hot, hot things that are um out there now that we've chatted about before. But I wanted, I wanted to specifically interrogate this idea of tradition from your perspective. Number one tradition done mean it's old. No, tradition don't mean it's old.

Shandin Pete:

No, tradition doesn't mean it's old. It could have come from a generation previous. It could even come from the current within your generation. Right, you could start a tradition within your family, and as long as you did it from year to year, it doesn't have to be from generation to generation.

Aaron Brien:

Traditions can be. It doesn't have to be from generation to generation. It could be from Traditions can be. It doesn't mean old. The term doesn't mean old, it doesn't mean new, it just.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah.

Aaron Brien:

I don't know.

Shandin Pete:

I pick up my kids every Wednesday. It's a tradition For the last three months, four months.

Aaron Brien:

It's tradition something we do. I don't think the term routine and tradition are that far off in some sense.

Shandin Pete:

Oh, really yeah well, yeah you're right, ain't it? I don't know, that's debatable.

Aaron Brien:

I think one is maybe one is group tradition seems like tradition. Can tradition is only worth talking about if it involves more than one person. I don't know, I mean. You know what I mean?

Shandin Pete:

Yeah, like flossing your teeth every night? It's not quite. Is that tradition or routine? It doesn't quite elevate to tradition, unless it's tied into your beliefs. But I don't know. I believe in great dental care I believe in flossing.

Aaron Brien:

I do too. I bet we believe in it. I bet we believe in it for two different reasons, though. Oh yeah, why?

Shandin Pete:

do you?

Aaron Brien:

believe in dental care.

Shandin Pete:

Like personal hygiene.

Aaron Brien:

You don't have stink breath, personal hygiene you don't have stink breath.

Shandin Pete:

What else that's about it?

Aaron Brien:

You want to know why I like it yeah yeah, yeah, I want to know. Because I have crooked teeth. So I always said, if I'm going to have crooked teeth, they're going to be clean, because you can't have crooked and dirty teeth, that's like what the hell man. You know what I mean.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah, you got to compensate one for the other, right?

Aaron Brien:

Yeah, dude, it's like come on.

Shandin Pete:

You should get some Invisalign man.

Aaron Brien:

I've talked about it oh yeah.

Aaron Brien:

I've talked about it.

Shandin Pete:

Okay.

Aaron Brien:

I think I even talked to the dentist about it.

Shandin Pete:

Oh yeah, you know what's weird, the weirdest thing, I think.

Aaron Brien:

I'd just get braces. I don't think I'd do Invisalign, I think I'd just go braces, no dude, the weirdest thing is a man with braces. Don't do it. Ease up on the term man all right dude.

Aaron Brien:

No.

Shandin Pete:

I'm just kidding, I don't want to. Yeah, okay.

Aaron Brien:

I don't know what that is. I fill out out paperwork and it's.

Aaron Brien:

I don't know I don't feel very manly lately, you know.

Aaron Brien:

Okay, all right, let's end it, this is this is it.

Shandin Pete:

Okay, we're done. I'm tired of it. Okay, okay.

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Shandin Pete

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