The Four Phases of Retirement with Dr. Riley Moynes

Dr. Riley Moynes, author and creator of a popular TED Talk joins James to discuss his own retirement which led him to become the author of The 4 Phases of Retirement. While Dr. Moynes was financially prepared for retirement, he wasn’t prepared for the boredom and depression that followed the first two years of retirement fun. As it turns out, his retirement path was far from unusual. 

Dr. Moynes shares what leads to a truly meaningful retirement and how you can prepare now for a meaningful, deeply satisfying retirement, one that is about much more than vacations and golf.

Connect with Dr. Riley Moynes:
Website: https://thefourphases.com/
YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@rileymoynes545
TedX Talk: https://youtu.be/DMHMOQ_054U?si=wr1B3lw5ysc05GPS
Book: https://thefourphases.com/buy-the-book/
The Workshop: https://thefourphases.com/book-a-workshop/

Questions Answered:
Why are some people unhappy in retirement, and is there a way to prevent that?
What are some reflective questions that can set me on the path to a satisfying retirement?

Timestamps:
0:00 - Dr. Riley Moynes and his research
4:55 - Phases 1&2 - vacation and boredom
9:57 - Phases 3&4 - trial and reinvention
12:45 - Ask the tough questions
16:06 - Skip Phase 2 and 3?
18:39 - Pre-retirement preparations
22:52 - Service to others
26:05 - Summary

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

If you have tuned into this podcast for any period of time, you know that we talk quite a bit about retirement planning, investment planning, tax strategies all the things that you need to do to create a financially secure retirement. I hope if you've also been tuning in for some period of time, you've noticed some undercurrent of additional talk, and that talk is about not just how do you create a financially secure retirement, but how do you create a meaningful retirement, a purposeful retirement, a retirement that you're going to look back on with great joy as you live through it. And I am thrilled today to have as a guest on the Ready for Retirement podcast Dr Riley Moynes. Dr Riley Moynes is a successful author, speaker, educator. He's founded a wealth management firm. He's delivered a TED Talk that has now over 4.3 million views. Dr Riley Moynes, thank you for being here. This is another episode of Ready for Retirement. I'm your host, james Canole, and I'm here to teach you how to get the most out of life with your money. And now on to the episode.

Speaker 2: 0:58

My pleasure. Thanks so much for having me, James.

Speaker 1: 1:01

You're very welcome. The pleasure is mine, and I am always fascinated by this because you yourself have founded a wealth management firm, which I know means you have helped a lot of people with the financial aspect of retirement. When did you personally, riley, determine or not determine, but start to see there's more to this than just the financial side of the planning work side of the planning work.

Speaker 2: 1:22

Yeah, unfortunately later than I would have liked. As I look back, I came kind of smack up against it. During my retirement I lived through phase one, which we'll talk a little bit about, but it's kind of the vacation phase and last for a year or so and it was exactly what I had expected. It was what everybody had told me was the ideal retirement. And what happened to me, and what has happened to hundreds of others, thousands of others, I'm sure, is that at the end of that time you or I certainly I got bored.

Speaker 2: 2:04

Too much of a good thing was actually too much. You could only play so much golf or do so much, whatever it is that you had planned to do when you retired. And I found that I was kind of disillusioned and I moved into phase two, and phase two is a bad time for many, many retirees. It certainly was for me. I didn't know what it was at that time. It was only after I did all the work that I've done that I was able to kind of frame it in a way that has been helpful to me and helpful to others. But I wish I knew then, when I was still advising, what I know now about it. I would have been a much better advisor, I would have been a more well-rounded advisor and I probably could have made a greater positive impact on the lives of many of my clients.

Speaker 1: 2:55

So when you gave that TED Talk which we're going to reference to in the show notes and I encourage everyone listening to tune into that and I'll ask, riley, if you don't mind summarizing it in just a bit here but it wasn't a TED Talk based upon what was theoretical or you'd read about or seen other people go through. It was what you personally lived through and that's what led to understanding what are those four distinct phases of retirement.

Speaker 2: 3:18

Well, yes, it was what I experienced, but, more importantly, it is what many hundreds and thousands of other retirees have reported as well, and part of the work that I did was to try to figure out what this was all about.

Speaker 2: 3:45

Know very well that most of the literature surrounding retirement planning relates to investments and tax planning and retirement planning or sorry, estate planning, wills, powers of attorney, all that kind of stuff critically important stuff but just not what I was looking for. So I interviewed well over 150 people who had been referred to me, people that I had been told had figured out retirement, whatever that means, and I asked them a series of questions. I always finished up by asking them how do you squeeze all the juice out of retirement? And after about three years of that effort, I was faced with a mountain of data that I had to try to make sense of. And what finally emerged? I think for me and I've tested it since that time over and over and over again, and it has proven to be strong, it's a helpful framework and that's how the four phases of retirement evolved.

Speaker 1: 4:42

I think it's incredibly helpful framework and, in fact, a client of mine. I was having a review meeting with him. Shout out to Michelle, Thank you, Michelle. He said hey, you have you heard of Riley Moynes, Dr Riley Moynes? I said no, but let me, let me tune in and let me listen to that tech talk. And I did and I said, yeah, this is someone that didn't just read about something and is regurgitating information. This is someone that clearly has a lived experience, Seems like there's some degree of personal transformation within it. If you don't mind, Riley, do you mind sharing a summary? I'll link to the full TED Talk, but a summary of what are those four phases that people tend to go through when they retire.

Speaker 2: 5:16

Well, first of all, I should say, james, that the TED Talk it's like 12 minutes long and it was based on my book 12 minutes long and it was based on my book, the Four Phases of Retirement, which is probably the fuller discussion of the four phases, and it's available through our website, which I know you're going to reference, and I appreciate that. Thank you. But essentially, the four phases are well, the first phase, as I've alluded to, lasts for about a year or so. It lasted just about two years for me and it's what I call the vacation phase. It's just like a vacation. You do what you want, you get up in the morning when you want, you go to bed when you want and you just kind of do what you want, as you do when you're on a vacation, and that's what most people believe to be the ideal form of retirement. It's what all the advertising says. It should be like cavorting along the beach, of course, with a loved one and having a glass of wine, and all of those things, and they're all part of it. But, as I say, sometimes, in fact always, I think too much of a good thing is too much. And after, for me it was about two years. I was kind of bored, stiff. I was asking myself is that all there is to retirement? That's what I was told it was supposed to be. It's been great, but I'm bored. And then I was moving into phase two and phase two is the toughest phase. I certainly have found it. Many people have confirmed it. Many people have confirmed it as well.

Speaker 2: 6:47

Phase two is when I call it, when we feel loss and we feel lost, and there are kind of five significant losses that almost always accompany phase two. There's the loss of structure. Most of us, I I think when we're in the vacation phase, like the fact that there's no structure. We always do when we're on vacation. But I'm convinced that deep down inside there is something genetically wired in us that requires a structure and we lose that in phase in.

Speaker 2: 7:22

In phase, in phase two, we lose our identity. In phase two males in particular, but not exclusively we identify with the work that we do. We try our best to make it meaningful and when that work is finished, we lose some of our identity as well. Thirdly, we lose some of the relationships that we have built up over the years, whether they be in our domestic career or working outside the home. We, some of these folks, become good personal friends and when we retire, when we leave, some of those relationships suffer as well. We lose a sense of purpose, because many of us get real purpose from our work and when we take it seriously and when that's gone, that sense of purpose is lost and part of us is lost. And number five some of us lose a sense of power.

Speaker 2: 8:17

Some of us have over the years assumed perhaps some responsibility for some budgeting or for personnel, and yet when we walk away the last time we're just a guy or a gal in the street and we don't see those losses coming. They're all directly related to retirement. We lose them all at the same time. It's like we lose them all at the same time. It's like bang.

Speaker 2: 8:46

It's traumatic for many, many folks and it hits us really hard. And it gets worse in phase two because we then have to deal with three Ds. We have to deal with decline, both physical and mental. We have to deal with depression. The world-famous Mayo Clinic suggests that there is a 40% likelihood that when we retire we will exhibit signs of clinical depression. And thirdly, many folks have to deal with divorce. For those folks over 50, the rate of divorce has doubled and for those over 65, the rate has tripled since 1990. Unbelievable statistics that are not directly related to retirement but related more to a time of life which happens in many cases to overlap with retirement, life which happens in many cases to overlap with retirement. And people need to get through phase two because otherwise they can become statistics. Do you know the highest rate of suicide in North America today? Men over 75. It's shocking.

Speaker 2: 10:03

And phase two is a very, very difficult time for many, many people. Phase three sooner or later most of us say to ourselves or a significant other hey, I cannot go on like this, I don't want to spend the rest of my life. Quite likely for many baby boomers, 30 years in retirement, a third of our lives. I can't go on like this. And we try something. We have to try something. It's called phase three, is called trial and error, and that's when we have to ask ourselves what is it that's going to make me want to get up in the morning again, what is it that I can do that's going to give me a sense of satisfaction and accomplishment? And that's phase three. And people need to work through phase three, they need to try things that they can do that are going to make them want to get up in the morning again.

Speaker 2: 10:57

My belief is that only about 60 to 65 percent of retirees are able to get through phases two and three and get to phase four, and that's the phase where we reinvent and we rewire, and that is the most satisfying, the most gratifying phase of all. I've seen it over and over again Phase four people can't wait to get up in the morning. They've got a whole list of things that they want to be involved with. They've got connections. They are involved in all kinds of activities. Lots of volunteering is involved in phase four. In fact, what distinguishes phase four people from other phases is a commitment to providing service to others. That's the key in phase four. Maybe it's on a volunteer basis, maybe it's on a part-time basis, maybe you're working part-time, but it's service to others. That is the critical aspect of phase four. In a nutshell, that's them.

Speaker 1: 12:00

That's them. Yeah, thank you for sharing those. I want to touch on two things real quick. Riley is the first.

Speaker 1: 12:06

There's almost a hero's journey arc to this of you retire and it's great, and there's the vacation, but then you're met with struggle and it takes something to wake you up to that, and then the almost the fight to get through that to break through to phase four. So I want people to understand two things. One is almost say what's the risk of not doing this? I think so often you hear this so much that people spend more time planning their vacation than they do planning their retirement. And if you go through it, or if you go into it unprepared, there might be there likely will be depression, there will likely be some degree of unsatisfaction. That's the risk, that's the reality. But there is also hope. There is the hope that, look, if you're willing to go through this, if you're willing to put in the time and try things, there's incredible satisfaction and purpose on the other end, in your experience, why do you find that it's only I think you said 65 held to that percentage? Because it's not a longitudinal research study.

Speaker 2: 13:05

By any means. It's my take on all of the interviews that I've done. But why don't people break through? I believe that people don't break through because they're not prepared to work hard enough. To me, it's critically important that, in order to break through, you need to ask yourself some tough questions. You need to ask yourself, for example, hey, why am I here, what's the purpose of my being here? And we are not very good at being introspective, I have found. I find that in my workshops we try to force people to be a little bit more introspective and I ask them and I encourage them, prod them, if necessary, to answer some questions.

Speaker 2: 14:03

Number one what is it that they love to do and that they do very well? Everyone has those things. Everyone is able to do some things extremely well and they love doing them. But I find it over and over again in our workshops that people haven't thought about that. They haven't thought about that for years and they need, because those are going to be important tools for moving forward. So we need to know. I call it unique ability. It's not unique in the sense that no one else on earth has those abilities, but it's representative of things that you love to do and that you do really well.

Speaker 2: 14:42

The second thing that I encourage people, proud people, to look at is list just five victories, successes, big wins that you've experienced so far in your life.

Speaker 2: 14:56

People could clearly do way more than that if they chose to, but I encourage people to do just five, because we don't think about those things, we don't think about our victories generally speaking.

Speaker 2: 15:10

Third thing I ask them to do is to look for connections, and it astounds me over and over again, james, that people do not see the connection but clearly there is one between the things that they love to do and do really well and past successes. Of course they're connected, but people don't see that often, and I encourage them to physically make those connections. And the fourth thing that we ask people to do, then, is taking all of those things into account. Ask themselves, what is it that they, what kind of psychic, if not financial, payback are they going to get from whatever it is that they commit to and for most people it is just. It makes them feel good when they identify these things and they apply them, quite likely in an entirely new part of their lives. That kind of connection, that's what I call their sweet spot and that's where they want to spend as much time as possible in phase four, because it's what provides the kind of meaning and significance that we all look for.

Speaker 1: 16:18

Yeah. Now the follow-up question to that and that makes a lot of sense is and I can hear a lot of people thinking this is how do I skip phase two and three? If there's a formula for this, can I go right from phase one to phase four?

Speaker 2: 16:31

Yeah, and in fact I've discovered that the answer is a tentative yes, there are. I believe it's about 10 to maybe 12% of retirees, and they generally tend to be in two groups. The first group are entrepreneurs, people who run their own businesses, often small businesses. The size doesn't really matter, but they're entrepreneurial. They have committed, generally speaking, to what they have been doing, in many cases for years. It's where they get the greatest satisfaction on earth and they probably should keep on doing it, although perhaps at a less hectic pace.

Speaker 2: 17:11

So people who are committed to their entrepreneurial role, they know they love what they're doing and you know kind of why would they change, except perhaps less intensity? The second group that I found, who are able to avoid phases two and three, tend to be people who, during their working or domestic careers, have identified a calling, a hobby, something really matter what it is, but something that they have been doing for a number of years, and what they love to do, of course, is to do more of that in retirement. So they know exactly what's going to give them great satisfaction and a great sense of meaning, and so they tend to expand upon that. Those are the two groups that I have found who are able often to avoid phases two and three.

Speaker 1: 18:10

And even as you speak and as I was listening to your TED Talk and our prior conversation, there's almost the sense of it's not necessarily what we're talking about isn't unique to retirement. It's unique to the human condition to an extent that we're all trying to figure out. Who are we, what is our purpose? Why are we here? The difference is, for the first maybe, 30, 40 years of our life, we have this thing called work to distract us from that difficult question. When, all of a sudden, that work is taken away, because either we retire or whatever happens, we have nothing left to distract and we're faced head on with who am I actually and what do I want to do? That being said, is there a way, is there something people can begin doing even before they retire, to prepare for this transition, to make it the best retirement possible?

Speaker 2: 19:01

Yeah, most people do not get to phase four, I believe because of a lack of effort.

Speaker 2: 19:08

They just don't realize that they have to identify these things.

Speaker 2: 19:21

They have to answer the questions that you've just asked, and they've never been forced to do so before. So I believe that one way that people can do that is to take stock from a much earlier stage of their lives. What are the things that they love to do? What are the things that they do really really well, what are the things that have led to success in the past? And I believe that those are the sorts of things that are going to lead to a successful retirement in the future, not necessarily applied in the same field that they were before, whether it be medicine or law or accounting or education, maybe not that at all but they've got these strengths. They've got these things that have led to success. They do things that make them feel good and they can apply them in an entirely different field, a different area, and it just makes all the difference for people to know what their strengths are, to know what they love to do, what has led to success in the past, and to apply them in a new situation.

Speaker 1: 20:13

Yeah, one as you're talking in, this thought just popped in my mind. Nothing I prepared ahead of time, but I was listening, I believe it was to a podcast between Tim Ferriss and Greg McKeown, who wrote the book Essentialism, and I think that's where it was and there was part of the conversation was Maslow has the hierarchy of needs. Okay, at first you need your basic things like security and food and shelter and love and belonging. Then, all the way at the top, he said hey, you need self-actualization. And then and I want to be careful saying this because I have not verified this, but the conversation he said hey, maslow actually added onto that before he passed and said it's not self-actualization, that's at the top, it's this sense of self-transcendence and there's a key distinction there of when we go into retirement and it's how much golf can I play and how much travel can I do, and there's a sense of how can I gratify me.

Speaker 1: 21:07

At some point that becomes empty and becomes something you say there's more to life than this, but that sense of self-transcendence, of I think this is why you see people finding that purpose in coaching, in teaching, in volunteering, in doing something that is bigger than a really nice trip to Hawaii or a great game of golf.

Speaker 2: 21:24

Yeah, it's bigger than themselves. I think that's the kind of the operative phrase. We want to be part of something that's bigger than ourselves and many of us achieve that during our work or during our domestic career and when it comes to retirement we need to find that again. We need to refocus, we need to reinvent and rewire. That's part of phase four.

Speaker 1: 21:49

So people who are listening saying, okay, that makes sense, I get what it's going to look like. And I think some people put off retirement for fear of going right into phase two. They already know. I feel like that loss is going to happen right away. When people look at phase three, I think sometimes there's a loss of hey, can I have some ideas? How do I experiment? Should I go down to the food shelter? Should I do something with the local community college? Are there common tasks or activities? Or quote unquote, these little experiments that you've seen people take. These say more often than not, if people experiment with these activities, they find that sense of purpose sooner rather than later.

Speaker 2: 22:25

Yeah, and I'll repeat because it's the same it is what is it that you love to do and that you do really well, what is it that has led to success in your life in the past before, and what is it that makes you feel really good when you do it? That combination, I think, is equally applicable kind of at any time in our lives, but in particular in retirement, when we are looking to reinvent and rewire.

Speaker 1: 22:55

And do you find that, with those, obviously, the unique to each person, the unique ability which, as you said, is not unique, but there is something specific to you that's maybe hardwired into your DNA? Do you find, hey, generally speaking, these activities that work fall under the category of teaching, of volunteering, of a specific hobby, or is it a whole bunch of different things? It could look like.

Speaker 2: 23:17

It's service to others. Whatever activity that you are involved with that provides service to others. So maybe it's teaching, maybe it's volunteering, maybe it's mentoring, maybe it's. One of the people that I interviewed gets great satisfaction, believe it or not. He gets great satisfaction out of delivering prescriptions two or three times a week for a couple of hours each day, and he delivers prescriptions to people who otherwise could not get to the pharmacy and it gives him great satisfaction to deliver that. He makes a little bit of beer money out of it, but he's not in it for that at all. He just loves to deliver these things that people are so grateful to receive.

Speaker 2: 24:04

Another example, pretty basic, another fellow that I interviewed on Friday afternoons, from four till seven, he delivers piping hot pizzas to people and it gives him a great sense of satisfaction to deliver something delicious to hungry people who are waiting for him. He gets nice tips out of it, but that's not what he's in it for. It's just something that he loves to do and it's providing service to others. There are so many of those opportunities out there and we need to test and keep trying which one kind of resonates for us or which ones resonate for us.

Speaker 1: 24:43

Yeah, I think, based on my experience which is far more limited than yours, of course that that sense of willingness to test and test, and test and try and try and try. We have this sense of oh, retirement should be easy. It means I do whatever I want when I want.

Speaker 2: 25:01

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 25:01

But what's ever been easy before?

Speaker 2: 25:03

Well, exactly Exactly. And, as I say, people, oftentimes people do not break through to phase four because they're too lazy. And phase three is all about trial and error. We don't have time to go into the number of disasters, of failures that I encountered in phase three. We don't, and there are dozens and dozens of others. But you've got to keep trying, because if you don't, the likelihood is, or it's certainly a possibility you just look back into phase two and you become part of those statistics. I mean alcoholism, gambling, all of that that we haven't even mentioned is rampant for people in phases two and three.

Speaker 1: 25:44

Yeah, this is, I think, very helpful sometimes to know there is hope on the other side and there is no silver bullet to get there other than the fact that it exists. Retirement can be wonderful. Retirement can be a third of your entire life. So let's put the work in in those early years or even, maybe even before your retirement, to find that purpose, to find that sense of who you are and what you want to do. Before we start to wrap, riley, are there any things that we haven't discussed yet that you would like the audience to know about this journey and what's on the other side?

Speaker 2: 26:17

Well, just James, I would say that that, for me, the value was, in the framework of the four phases, recognizing that it was likely going, that you were, that you were for the most part, except for the entrepreneurs and and the others who had these, uh, these hobbies much earlier on.

Speaker 2: 26:38

The vast majority of retirees are going to encounter all of these phases. They'll be for different lengths of time, of course. They'll be at different depths of of, uh, of um. Well, they'll be at different depths depending from person to person, but there is a very good likelihood that you will encounter those four phases and for me that was just kind of a magic bullet. And the value I think of the TED Talk, for example, is that, with such a large number of people who have taken the time to watch it, it's very gratifying first of all, but it also speaks to the level of interest in that topic and understanding of the fact that there are psychological changes and challenges that you are going to encounter and the framework can be really helpful in recognizing that, wherever you are, it's not a dead end. There's opportunity, there's possibilities if you press on.

Speaker 1: 27:44

Yeah, I think that's a great place to wrap. So, riley, I'm going to link to your website, to your YouTube channel, to that TED Talk that, as we said, has 4.3 million views and counting, your book, your workshop Where's the best place for?

Speaker 2: 28:00

people to go if they want to learn more about these four phases and how to apply them. Well, I would say, to our website and to actually purchase the book, the Four Phases of Retirement, as I say, several financial advisors have been kind enough to invite me to present to their clients and to their prospects, and that provides another aspect, kind of the live component add, something that cannot be in either the TED Talk or in the book, but it all starts at the website thefourphasescom.

Speaker 1: 28:32

Well, this has been great. At the website, thefourphasescom. Well, this has been great and I encourage everyone listening for as much time as we put into the financial part of our retirement planning getting the portfolio right, the tax strategy right, the estate, the insurance that's all going to be meaningless if we don't also have the personal side of the planning done and the purpose side. So, riley, really appreciate you coming on board to share your experience, your wisdom, to share these four phases. I know it's going to help a whole bunch of people. Thank you for being here.

Speaker 2: 28:56

My pleasure, James. Thanks so much All right, everyone Take care. Hey, bye-bye.

Speaker 1: 29:01

Hey everyone, it's me again for the disclaimer. Please be smart about this. Before doing anything, please be sure to consult with your tax planner or financial planner. Nothing in this podcast should be construed as investment, tax, legal or other financial advice. It is for informational purposes only. Thank you for listening to another episode of the Ready for Retirement podcast. If you want to see how Root Financial can help you implement the techniques I discussed in this podcast, then go to rootfinancialpartnerscom and click start here, where you can schedule a call with one of our advisors. We work with clients all over the country and we love the opportunity to speak with you about your goals and how we might be able to help. And please remember, nothing we discuss in this podcast is intended to serve as advice. You should always consult a financial, legal or tax professional who's familiar with your unique circumstances before making any financial decisions. Thank you.