Podcast on Crimes Against Women
The Conference on Crimes Against Women (CCAW) is thrilled the announce the Podcast on Crimes Against Women (PCAW). Continuing with our fourth season, the PCAW releases new episodes every Monday. The PCAW serves as an extension of the information and topics presented at the annual Conference, providing in-depth dialogue, fresh perspectives, and relevant updates by experts in the fields of victim advocacy, criminal justice, medicine, and more. This podcast’s format hopes to create a space for topical conversations aimed to engage and educate community members on the issue of violence against women, how it impacts our daily lives, and how we can work together to create lasting cultural and systemic change.
Podcast on Crimes Against Women
Unmasking Misogyny in Family Courts: The Call for Transformative Change
Can the family court system really be trusted to protect victims of abuse? Join us for a powerful and eye-opening episode as we welcome Dr. Christine Cocchiola and Amy Polacko, authors of the groundbreaking book "Framed: Women in the Family Court Underworld." Together, we tackle the systemic issues that plague family courts, often framing women as perpetrators rather than victims. Through their personal and professional experiences, Dr. Cocchiola and Amy Polacko reveal how patriarchal social conditioning and ingrained misogyny perpetuate these injustices, emphasizing the urgent need for greater awareness and education among legal and mental health professionals.
We share harrowing stories from "Framed," featuring 22 women from across the US, UK, Canada, and Australia who have faced abuse and manipulation within the family court system. This episode highlights the shocking tactics used by abusive partners and the profound emotional, physical, and financial toll on the victims. As we explore these heart-wrenching narratives, the urgent need for systemic change becomes glaringly apparent. We dive deep into the concept of coercive control, illustrating how it serves as a gateway to more overt forms of abuse and how it is often overlooked by the courts.
In our final segment, we focus on the crucial reforms needed to protect victims of abuse within the family court system. We discuss the inspiring efforts of advocates like Tina Swithin and the significance of grassroots movements in driving systemic change. The conversation underscores the importance of legislative action, collaboration among advocacy groups, and the necessity of believing and supporting victims. By spreading awareness through resources like "Framed," we hope to encourage societal involvement and push for changes that prioritize the safety and well-being of children and protective parents. Listen in as we advocate for better support and understanding within legal and social frameworks.
The subject matter of this podcast will address difficult topics multiple forms of violence, and identity-based discrimination and harassment. We acknowledge that this content may be difficult and have listed specific content warnings in each episode description to help create a positive, safe experience for all listeners.
Speaker 2:In this country, 31 million crimes 31 million crimes are reported every year. That is one every second. Out of that, every 24 minutes there is a murder. Every five minutes there is a rape. Every two to five minutes there is a sexual assault. Every nine seconds in this country, a woman is assaulted by someone who told her that he loved her, by someone who told her it was her fault, by someone who tries to tell the rest of us it's none of our business and I am proud to stand here today with each of you to call that perpetrator a liar.
Speaker 1:Welcome to the podcast on crimes against women. I'm Maria McMullin. The following episode was originally released on our sister show, genesis, the Podcast, where my guests Dr Christine Cochiola and Amy Palacco discuss their new book Framed Women in the Family Court Underworld to understand how the influence of patriarchal social conditioning and the misogyny it legitimates has shaped the family court system and how we can change that. Christine Marie Cochiola has been a social justice advocate since the age of 19, as a domestic abuse, sexual assault crisis counselor and a child welfare advocate. She served as a board member on the National Coalition Against Domestic Violence and has actively supported codifying coercive control as the foundation of domestic abuse, writing policy briefs supporting these efforts and providing expert testimony at legislative hearings. Most importantly, through her own experiences as a protective parent, her clinical expertise as a trauma-trained therapist, a researcher and educator, dr Cotiola understands the impact that coercive control has on both adult and child victims. A college professor teaching social work for over 20 years, she's the creator of the Protective Parenting Program, a program to support protective parents navigating parenting children harmed by a coercive controller. Her other educational programming supports creating a greater awareness for attorneys, mental health clinicians, divorce coaches and other allies to understand the often insidious, nuanced nature of coercive control.
Speaker 1:Amy Polacco is an award-winning journalist, investigative reporter and divorce coach who survived a narcissist's nightmare. After her own experience, she formed Freedom Warrior Coaching to become the guide she wished she'd had. Amy earned a master's degree from Columbia University School of Journalism and was part of the Pulitzer Prize-winning reporting team covering the TW8 Flight 800 crash for Newsday. She has coached hundreds of women going through divorce, runs a support group and writes for national news outlets about coercive control, domestic abuse, divorce, online dating and singlehood. Her work has been featured in the Huffington Post, ms Magazine, the Washington Post, newsweek, nbc News, the Independent and Observer.
Speaker 1:Amy helps women take their power back during and after divorce. She created a digital course Divorce Decoded to educate divorcing women about the process, warnings about family court, how to divorce a narcissist and tips for avoiding devastating mistakes. Amy, christine, welcome to the show, thank you. Thank you so much for having us. Congratulations on the publication of your new book Framed Women in the Family Court Underworld. So framed is an interesting choice of words for the book's title. What does that look like within the context of abuse in family court, and who is being framed and by whom and how?
Speaker 3:Well, we see it over and over again.
Speaker 3:Amy and I have worked together for quite a few years and we just continue to see woman framed in family court for the egregious acts by an abusive partner, and so the idea to call it framed really seemed to settle really well with us because it just seems like, over and over and over again, a victim who has suffered a significant abuse in her life and, maria, you and I have had these conversations about coercive control.
Speaker 3:You know, coercive control is beyond the physically violent incident model. It can be any kind of coercion and control and when it happens in the parameters of physical violence, it's when it's the most violent. Typically we know that about cases. But when women come forward about any form of abuse that they are not believed at a very significant rate upwards of over 50%. There's been some research that says upwards of 85% and the reality is is that in the court system when they come forward they are often punished, retaliated against and they are perceived by the court oftentimes as the bad parent, when actually there's only one person who is a bad parent and that is the abuser. So framed seems to fit pretty well. It happens over and over again, amy, I don't know if you have anything to add to that.
Speaker 4:Sure, I'd love to add to that, maria, that we hope the title and the cover are provocative. We hope they shock people. We hope people are ticked off after they read this book, because that's the idea here. We want to start a movement for change, and we believe that those of us who are in this family court world and work in this field every day, we know these stories, but there are millions of people around the world who do not, and so it's really important for us to get this in their hands too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean just reading through the book myself. Some of the stories are outrageous, the tactics that occur by abusive partners against not only their wives or partners but their children. I mean, there's so much at stake in these cases. Now, for listeners who haven't read the book yet or heard of Framed yet, tell us what it is about.
Speaker 4:Well it's really a compilation of 22 stories from women around the world the US, the UK, canada and Australia and of course we've changed their names to protect them and their identities. But we really trace their stories from when they met their partner through the family court nightmare. And I think one of the most interesting parts is we said to our contributors these brave women who we are eternally grateful to because you know they're sharing their stories not just with us but with the world to help other people we said how did you meet him? You know how did it start? How did he court you? What happened before the marriage?
Speaker 4:And so we really believe that every woman out there will be able to identify and empathize with these women, and we hope men read this book too. So we have our stories and then we have our notes at the end of each chapter. We are grateful to Dr Romney, who wrote our foreword, and Tina Swithin, the founder of One Mom's Battle, who wrote our epilogue. And then we have an incredible call to action at the end. Dr C, do you want to talk about that? Yeah, sure.
Speaker 3:I mean, I think we hope that people read these stories and they're so moved that they actually, if they're living in the world of and I wish I lived in this world of rose colored glasses, where there's equity in family court, where children are entirely protected from abusive parents.
Speaker 3:And I just want to back up for a moment because I think it's really important to highlight we know this happens to men, there's no doubt about it, but the reality is is that the systems are based in patriarchy and that this harms, in particular, women and children at vastly greater rates. We're not diminishing the experiences of men in the family court system. What we're trying to do is highlight the most vulnerable so that if we can actually shine a bright light on the most vulnerable, then everyone will say wait a minute, what's going on? How do we fix this? And if we can fix this situation for women and children, of course others who are harmed are going to have the same, better experience in the family court system. The call to action is really about what do you do next, how do you help victims and survivors? Part of the call to action is also this idea of what do you do if you know someone, because, frankly, maria, you know, we all know someone suffering abuse.
Speaker 3:This is an epidemic 35% of women in the world suffer violence in their lifetime. That's violence, physical violence, sexual violence. What if all the women who are not suffering something that we can see, but they are suffering oppression of all kinds, and their children how many children are in these family systems that are suffering? Those rates have to be absolutely astronomical. And the amount of children in these family systems? We could prevent intergenerational trauma if we could protect children from abusers, and the family courts are not doing that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, your points are very well taken, for sure, and we're going to dive into some of that. I want to go back to something that Amy was saying. And there's 20 or so stories in the book, 20 or more different perspectives of how, which is a lot, by the way. I mean, if there's 20, there's got to be 200,000, right? There's just so many ways that this can happen. Did you notice any patterns across these stories? Was there anything that stood out for you that we can identify as patterns, that perhaps as researchers, law enforcement academics and others, that we can look at and try to dissect and see if it helps maybe solve some of the problem?
Speaker 4:I think, maria, that you know I'm holding the book up here at the bottom. We say no, the abuser's playbook, that's the MO. That's the common thread we see. By the way, this is a diverse group of women from around the world, all different walks of life, different professions. Their abusers are in different fields and the reader will explore that as they read the stories. But the common denominator is coercive control, as Dr C talks about so eloquently, and also as you move into the divorce or custody process. It is a weaponization of the family court system that we are seeing over and over again.
Speaker 2:So I think the signs are there.
Speaker 4:They're filing motion after motion. You know we think that a judge should be able anyone in the court system should look at a case and say there are this many motions filed on one side? I mean it's a red flag, right? You know they are filing ex parte motions. You know emergency motions for custody which then, can you know, become permanent when they start out as temporary. They are using the children as pawns. We see this over and over again. There's a lot of financial abuse. We were talking about the invisible as pawns. We see this over and over again. There's a lot of financial abuse. We were talking about the invisible kind of abuse. A lot of these women are cut off from the family funds. They're begging for money. They can't pay their legal fees and these cases don't just emotionally, physically decimate them, but financially as well. Many of these women have to declare bankruptcy if they can't come up with a huge fortune to fight for their children in family court.
Speaker 1:So does that not put up a red flag for a judge when a man is filing motion after motion and just trying to delay this process? Or does it not become clear in some way that there's something going on here that is Is more than just trying to get custody of children or divide property equally?
Speaker 3:We would hope so. I actually just posted on my Instagram vexatious litigation and we have a story in our book called Scorched Earth and it's really when everyone engaged in the process the abuser, his attorneys are engaged in a process of wiping away anything that matters to the victim. It's sadistic, it actually is. There's research study now out calling this. Like these abusers are, have these qualities in them, where they want someone to feel pain. That's how they feel good, and I think you and I have had this conversation a little bit about the pathology of abusers and that's really where we need to begin to look is if the court system could understand that.
Speaker 3:But the problem is and what we keep seeing over and over again and every advocate, I believe in the field is seeing this over and over again is that it's not that they don't see it. They don't. The court system doesn't want to see it. They don't want to deal with these cases. They call these cases high conflict and you know we have research that affirms these people are drawn towards conflict and when you have other players on your team who actually are enjoying the fight and have a payoff, that will be really like wonderful for them, right? They're happy about this payoff.
Speaker 3:They're going to keep going in that direction, regardless of who the abuser is, and it's really problematic, and I think I just want to go back to something that Amy alluded to in this idea that these abusers are charlatans. They don't show up in court with a sign saying I'm an abuser. They're showing up in court as professionals, as plumbers, as teachers, as counselors, it doesn't matter and they are performative in the court. That I say the stage is set. Once they get into family court, they are so happy because this is when they can use the court system to really further harm the adult victim and use. The weaponization of children continues to happen as a matter of fact in the UK they have now made love bombing, which our stories all you know.
Speaker 3:When you read through the stories, you saw that there is a process of love bombing, which our stories all you know. When you read through the stories, you saw that there is a process of love bombing. Love bombing is now considered part of the law explaining coercive control, because these abusers don't just come in and say I'm an abuser, I'm going to abuse you. They come in with this, they're chameleons, right, they have this Dr Jekyll, mr Hydeside and the victim.
Speaker 3:Initially, nobody goes into this saying he was a bad man. People go into this thinking he's a great man, he, what he does as part of his pathology is mirrors, her wonderful qualities. And so you know, as I said, this can happen to men. But in general, who in society has more power and control? Men do Men do this is, you know, like we set little boys up honestly in society to have an understanding that they're supposed to be strong and have control and have power over, and that's how they show their manhood. We have to start really young educating people about this and about the harms that are created when there's inequality in relationships.
Speaker 1:Yeah, those messages are absolutely everywhere for young men and for little boys. Even so, as parents, we have, you know, the work of educating boys differently and creating to create a future for them that's built with a healthy foundation for healthy relationships.
Speaker 4:Yes, two points. Going back to your question about do the courts see it, do the judges see it, I think we have to be honest here that there are a lot of people making a lot of money in these situations. They appoint parent coordinator, custody evaluator, guardian ad litem all of these people, attorneys they're all making money. So you have to ask what's their incentive for ending it quickly, and we believe the judges are aware of this too. And then also, I want to bring up something that Suzanne Zakour said. She's a Canadian attorney and researcher and I interviewed her for an article I did in Ms Magazine about how women are depicted as hysterical and out for revenge in family court. It's a misogynistic trope we see all the time, and she said and I thought this was really insightful that it's easier for judges to believe that women are crazy and unhinged than to believe that this many men are actually abusers. So I think that plays into it too.
Speaker 3:And I think it kind of alludes to those stats I mentioned just a few minutes ago, minutes ago. Right, it's this idea that the world doesn't want to recognize that there is this much harm being inflicted on women all of the time, like the world in general, is just. I mean, how is it that this is not considered an epidemic?
Speaker 1:How is it that we are not talking about it and having conversations and protecting women and children, when we know having conversations and protecting women and children when we know Right, I think you know, in order to admit what's going on here means the whole thing has to be blown up and start over. And it also means that for centuries the courts were wrong or the courts did not do right by women and children. And you know, amy, to your point of, it's easier to believe this many women are crazy quote unquote than this many men abused. But it's really the same number of people. It's just that I don't understand, like, how the courts could think, yes, this many women could be completely crazy, but there's no way that this many men abuse these women. It's so upside down.
Speaker 3:And that's misogyny, isn't it?
Speaker 1:I mean.
Speaker 3:That's what our world, the way that we have personified women in general in society, which is why it's so heartbreaking when you have a mom who has lost custody to an abuser or has lost partial time to an abuser, and she is, of course, emotionally wrought and so overwhelmed and distressed and we call out that as a psychological illness, instead of saying this is a normal trauma reaction. Right, it's a normal trauma reaction and it's not hard to discern the difference between an abuser and the victim. It's not, but people are not willing to really unpack that yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1:Now, in your opening remarks of the book, each of you commented on your personal connection to this work. Can you share why this project is important to you and what outcomes you hope for?
Speaker 4:Well, I always describe myself as a babe in the woods when I entered family court. I have been married and divorced twice, so I say I've been to this rodeo twice. I've seen a lot and I was blown away. I just remember thinking this is happening in America, it's. I liken it to the cognitive dissonance you have in the abusive relationship, where it's hard to accept that the person you thought had your back and was the love of your life is actually out to harm and destroy you. And I think that's why this trauma is a huge secondary trauma for women the institutional betrayal Right and so I experienced that where I had professionals bra like Angelina Jolie.
Speaker 4:After you see what happens in family court, you can't look away. You can't walk away and do something else. You've got to reach back and help the women who are still there. Healing it's always a process from abuse has their own journey, and for me it was getting back to journalism. I used to be a full-time investigative reporter and so I thought I can use these skills to write about this, which I've done, and obviously the book is an extension of that and that has helped me. What I hope is to educate and empower women. That's what I do in my coaching practice. I became a coach to help women because I believe that they were just walking into this system blindly. So many of us and I think it's purposeful.
Speaker 4:We've been kept in the dark, we've been kept in this vulnerable, powerless situation, and it's time for women to be educated and at least know what they're stepping into and know the playbook they could be up against.
Speaker 3:So, maria, I obviously am a victim and a survivor and a protective parent and had no. I met my ex he was the charlatan when I was 16 years old and fell in love and was with him my whole life frankly, until 2019. So I didn't realize that he was also indoctrinating my children into a false narrative about me and that I found out about nine years later. So that's why I created the Protective Parenting Program and I'm trying to educate clinicians and attorneys and coaches on what really happens with coercive control, because the trauma to our children is so preventable, is so preventable. And had my ex not been so abusive, or finally abusive during post-separation via email exchanges that I was getting or I wasn't exchanging with him, but via the abuse that I was getting in emails, and had he not done such a terrific job of trying to make my children think there was something wrong with me, I might not have left. I might have gone back again. I tried leaving like five times, so you know if it could happen to me.
Speaker 3:I've been doing this work since the age of 19. I've worked in child welfare. I'm a therapist. I have been educating on the power and control wheel in my social workforces for the last 20 years and didn't know it was happening to me. That's how insidious it is, that's how nuanced it is.
Speaker 3:I always say and I want your listeners to hear this and I probably have said this before with you but the idea that we think that abuse has to be extreme, we think he has to lock us in a room or turn off the electricity, which my ex did or maybe he has to physically assault you that's not always the case. It can be so nuanced and really highlighting the fact that the psychological tactics these abusers use are their gateway to using further abuses when those don't work anymore. It's a gateway gaslighting, manipulation, intimidation, isolation, and then, as we talk about and Amy and I talk about this in the book, then the veil begins to start to like get a little clarity, the disassociation doesn't happen as much, and now that person is going to use on, move on to the other tactics, especially if you're going to end up in family court.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thank you for really clarifying all of that, because I think it's important for everyone listening whether they are living with abuse, survived abuse, a family court, judge, law enforcement, legal community to understand that these are steps right, that over time build the wall and when it comes crashing down, it really comes crashing down. For reference for people listening. Dr Cotiola and I have talked many times on this podcast. I can't remember how many times it's been it may have been two, it may have been seven, I'm not really sure but if you go back in the library for both of our podcasts you'll be able to find those episodes.
Speaker 1:I do remember a two-parter on coercive control, which we condensed it down to two parts. It was a very complex topic to cover, but many of the things that have been mentioned here by both Dr C and Amy those are terms and concepts that you can find more information on in those previous episodes. There's also some episodes with Lundy Bancroft that dive into some of those topics as well. To kind of give you a better idea of the terminology that we're talking about if you're not familiar with it, the book Framed also has a condensed glossary of terms that include some of these things and lots of other, you know, bullet point lists and stuff of information that are easy to kind of breeze through and kind of get the lay of the land on the topic.
Speaker 3:May I, maria, just for your listeners here, just do really brief, just to make sure that they kind of so. I think it's really important that everyone understands that coercive control is about one person or group of people exerting power and control over another person or group of people. It is the underpinning of all abuse.
Speaker 3:When we think of all abuse, and this is how I see it- I wish the vernacular can really broaden when we think of any way that someone is abused, whether it's racism, right, whether it's in an intimate relationship, whether it's your employer. If someone is doing this and it's a pattern of behavior that is occurring, then it is someone who wants to exert power and control over you, and that is coercive control, and so it doesn't have to be extremely violent. It can be, and when it is, it's the most deadly. It's about someone diminishing you, diminishing your agency and your autonomy. And I'll stop it there, and then they can go back and look at the other episodes.
Speaker 1:Now. That's extremely helpful. I appreciate the context. Now in the book, the stories shared represent many facets of domestic violence and experiences of survivors in family court. Give us an idea of those stories that you shared in the work.
Speaker 4:So, as we said, these women represent all walks of life. I'm going to read really briefly from one called the Abuser's Playbook. It's Michelle's story. Flee from one called the Abuser's Playbook. It's Michelle's story. She's a very successful professional woman just to give you a little background who lives on the East Coast and she says my name is Michelle and I want a divorce. These are the very words that initiated my living hell.
Speaker 4:Three years ago, I was free of debt, naive and trusting. Now, with over 300,000 in legal fees and deep in personal debt, I'm acutely aware of what can happen in divorce. Let me make something clear you don't have free will in these coercively controlling, narcissistic relationships. You are being controlled and dominated by someone in all aspects of your life, and it's by someone who's telling you they love you. It's coercive control. The confusion they create is powerful. Now she's someone who is still embroiled in a divorce case with her abuser, but she has not lost custody of her kids.
Speaker 4:I just want to read a really quick snippet from another story called Spiritual Abuse. This is Lucy and she's a much younger mom, I would say. She has no contact with one of her children and she said however, time keeps passing and my abuser continues to delay, manipulate and weaponize the kids to maintain separation from me. I have spent $600,000 in legal fees, thanks to my parents generously offering me their entire retirement to fight for my kids, but so much time has passed that I wonder if there will be any kids at the end of this. They are quickly approaching manhood and there is no end in sight for the divorce.
Speaker 4:Trial. Dates are booking over a year out and custody determinations teeter on the success or failure of ongoing reunification efforts. I tell my story with the hope that it can demonstrate the devastation that occurs in families when the institutions that were set up to protect the vulnerable are broken. My situation exemplifies the need for change within the family court system and serves as a cautionary tale. Of course, all of these are cautionary tales, but I think each woman has her own voice, obviously, and brings different nuances and lessons for the reader.
Speaker 1:So just right there, right, a million dollars in legal fees and just an outrageous custody battle, and just however many lives torn apart just from this one, these two situations.
Speaker 4:Well, I think that, Maria, people often think, well, this doesn't affect me, you know, they might think of these type of divorces as Jerry Springer cases and maybe there's nobody, they know. Chances are there's someone they know, a friend, family member, somewhere in their community.
Speaker 2:But in a blink of an eye. It could be them.
Speaker 4:It could be their daughter, their sister, their friend. I mean, this isn't just devastating the women and children involved, it's the parents. We hear this all the time. People emptied their savings account, they've sold homes, the parents have lost their retirements. I mean, and the taxpayers? You know, taxpayers are paying for these long drawn out wars in family court that don't need to happen.
Speaker 3:It's a multiple billion dollar industry, double digit billion dollar industry. There's a lot of money to be made on this and family court judges, which I'm not sure everyone is aware, actually do not have to take courses in domestic abuse. And here's the other problem, I think, is that oftentimes they're taking courses in we'll call it domestic violence, because that's the word most of these courses are called, and that is actually looking at experiences through the violent incident model. And what they also do is they talk about how children need two parents. A lot of these courses are, first of all, about physical violence and, second of all, why children need two parents. That's not true. Children need one healthy, protective parent and they need to be safe from an abusive parent. And the courts are not being trained on that.
Speaker 3:And even if they were, the question becomes would they actually be doing this work and protecting children? It's really mind blowing to me that if a stranger did to the child what the stranger, what the parent did which means if there was a stranger in the street who beat up the child's mother or who maybe cut off her electricity or, you know, locked her car so she couldn't get into it that stranger would be arrested and they would. That child would never be forced into repair, therapy or any kind of circumstances with that abusive parent. Yet we're doing it every day with children and we're wondering so from a trauma lens. As a therapist, I am just floored over and over again with the amount of therapists who think this is a good idea. I mean, I can't even. I have no words, honestly.
Speaker 1:So yeah, we say this a lot on the show, using the very same example. If a stranger beat up a woman, he would be arrested and charges would be filed. It's a criminal act, but because it happens within the domicile, it's a family matter. It's a private matter. But is it? Yeah, because it seems just as criminal to me. And all of the examples that you gave, what other stories are in the book, dr C?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I will share with you Congrats. You lost custody. This is Charlotte's story. She's in the United States and so, since I had supposedly done so many egregious things for example, attempted to protect my children from their abusive father and his abusive family members I needed to be punished. Her children were disclosing sexual abuse. The judge remanded me to spend six days in jail, at the height of the COVID pandemic, for withholding my children from their father. Finally, the worst of this was that I was not allowed to have any contact with my children for five weeks. I was devastated. There was no way to know if my children were okay and, of course, there was no way to prevent the abuse from occurring. My attorney filed an appeal but, as expected, the appeals court completely agreed with the trial court's findings.
Speaker 3:The case was all over the internet and the oral arguments were published on YouTube. Anyone can look them up. I even received a bright yellow congratulations you did it award from a large law practice four hours away for losing custody and decision making of my children. They posted it on their website. My children and I were shattered. We had long ago lost faith that anyone would protect them, but we could not have predicted this mockery of our situation, but my brave six-year-old would not be silenced. And that six-year-old went on to tell someone at his school that they were being sexually abused and in this, her case cost more than $400,000 in attorney's fees, psychological evaluations and therapy. Charlotte tells us there will more than likely be thousands more needed for the ongoing therapy my children will need to heal. The worst part is none of this needed to happen. The evidence was always there, but the family court was more intent on supporting an abusive father than protecting my children.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that is an outrageous, outrageous case. Children yeah, that is an outrageous, outrageous case, and I mean, I really have no words for it.
Speaker 3:But I should say this because I think this is so important what we know from research is that when a mother says her children are being sexually abused, she's disbelieved at a rate of 85%.
Speaker 3:Now, if I'm a predator predator and my original background started with domestic abuse and sexual abuse of children if I'm a predator, then what better way to gain access to children than to maybe marry someone and have children? And I don't mean to be. I mean, I know this is a hard subject for people, but not all coercive controllers are pedophiles. But, frankly, for people, but not all course of controllers are pedophiles, but, frankly, all pedophiles are using the same strategies, the grooming process of coercion and control, to gain access not only to the adult victim but to her children. And so it's not surprising to me. I believe, that many of these cases are predators who have intentionally said I'm going to start a family or I'm going to meet a woman who has children and prey upon them, and I saw this over and over again in my child welfare work. This is the pipeline to child predators gaining access to children. It's the pipeline.
Speaker 1:And this problem, all of these problems are so deep and so complex and so, as you say, insidious and tied into the very culture that is perpetrated by family courts and patriarchy. Let's dive into the family court system just a bit more. To begin, we need to understand how this court system was developed and how it is shaped by patriarchal history, laws and leaders.
Speaker 4:Well, I can speak to our system in the United States, which is similar in the other countries we cover in the book. In 1910, actually, probation officers are the ones who pushed for the creation of a special domestic relations court system, and these were designed as courts of equity instead of really courts of law. So they started in the beginning to prosecute non-support cases and then grew to handle child neglect, guardianship, paternity, family offenses and then were eventually granted jurisdiction over abandonment, custody, adoption, post-divorce issues. The thing is they became more civil in nature, and this started in 1933 when New York established an independent family court called the Domestic Relations Court. But they're a combination of criminal and civil components. So the important thing here, I think, is that in family court we've removed some of the constitutional protections offered by criminal procedures. For instance, a woman doesn't get a free attorney, or a man for that matter. But you know, if you're in criminal court you're entitled to an attorney, right?
Speaker 4:So we're talking about these court costs and we have heard of many cases in the millions and these are not necessarily millionaires.
Speaker 4:They are people who have sold all of their assets and liquidated and borrowed to save children, basically. So you know. The other important thing is that most of these family court cases are presided over by a judge without a jury. So you know it happens behind closed doors. These are very secretive. This is a big topic right now. No fault divorce Right. Right In 1969, governor Ronald Reagan of California started the no fault divorce trend. He thought it was a good idea. Every state has a variation of it. Now, of course, project 2025 wants to get rid of it something.
Speaker 4:I've written about and spoken out about, which would trap domestic abuse victims in unhealthy marriages, but that's another story.
Speaker 4:But I think things got a little bit better for women in that case where, with no-fault divorce, you don't have to prove you have a right to get divorced, right? Because before you had to, you know it's a laborious process to actually prove abandonment, adultery and all of these things. So that was one good step, but overall, as we've discussed, Maria, this is a patriarchal system. You know, lawyers are allowed to contribute to a judge's political campaign. Judges may go work for a law firm after they leave the bench. There are really cozy relationships. At the end of the day, this was a system created by men to help men, and that's what we're dealing with.
Speaker 4:And, as Dr C said, you know it goes by the violent incident model for domestic abuse. So that's another roadblock that women have. I mean we see cases all the time I see them where women cannot get a restraining order, still to this day.
Speaker 1:For things that were not related to physical violence. Right, is what you're talking about.
Speaker 4:And physical violence. I still see cases?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think that's what you were saying, amy, right? Is that? In other words, if you haven't suffered physical violence, it's very you don't get a restraining order, and so that's part of the problem. Now, that's the good news about coercive control legislation that is trying to change that, where coercive control is now codified as a form of domestic abuse in seven states. So that means that we can look beyond the violent incident model when we're looking at abuse. The question is is a judge going to actually look at a restraining order and say he's sending me harassing emails, I'm afraid of him? And are they going to actually say oh, you deserve a restraining order, and you know? Here's the other problem Women are most at risk the day that they actually get a restraining order.
Speaker 3:And you know, you know this, so you know we have so much research out there that women are actually at greater risk. Yet we tell them to get these restraining orders. I think it's important to mention too that you know, as Amy said, this history of the family court system. I mean judges in general have been given judicial immunity as a result of being in their position. So in 1607 is when this started. But we basically said is as long as they're acting within the range of their jurisdictions, even if they're acting and this says it in the law even if they are acting maliciously and found to do something egregious, they do not have to be held to account. And so it's rather disconcerting to think about.
Speaker 3:And then, when we think about the Violence Against Women's Act that was created in 1994, I mean that wasn't that long ago and that's the first time that we began researching what happens to women in these intimate relationships, and we actually were preventing by 1994. So prior to 1994, if a woman actually was egregiously harmed physically the only way that we actually recognized it her abuser could flee to another state and never face arrest. And now, thankfully, we can go beyond state lines. So there's just an unfortunate we're slow. As a matter of fact, dr Evan Stark, who I worked under his tutelage for my doctoral work, in course of control, I mean, he talks about this idea that he was part of that battered women's movement back in the 70s and he opened his home. He and his wife opened their home to victims and survivors and we are still nowhere near where we need to be in recognizing and the way that you describe some of these cases and the people who are involved in handling the cases.
Speaker 1:The judge, court appointees. Court appointed.
Speaker 3:Guardian ad litems, forensic evaluators, custody evaluators, minors counsel there's a lot of different words that are used for some of similar, some similar things, similar practices. Some are lawyers for the children, some are doing custody evaluations.
Speaker 1:So the way that all of this is described, it sounds like there's more than one abusive person in this courtroom.
Speaker 3:Oh, it's a circus.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's like a network of different levels of abuse.
Speaker 3:And there's payoff. We know that. We see it over and over again that there is money to be made. If you know, I mean think about the story that you know Amy did such an amazing job and such a sad story of Catherine Kasanoff and exposing. You know what we there's just too many people connected in a variety of ways to think otherwise.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you know the opening line of the introduction of participants, including evaluators, consultants, experts, judges and attorneys, and it goes on from there. But she calls it out right from the very beginning. So you know it just begs the question is this really about money?
Speaker 4:Some would argue yes, I mean, it's a cottage industry. And again, what will incentivize people in the system who are benefiting from this to change? I believe two things. I think there's increased scrutiny and people like Tina Swithin, who wrote our epilogue, who regularly on her social media will call out a judge or an evaluator who they've gotten complaints about.
Speaker 4:I think the public shame of what is going on is one thing, and I believe that we need a grassroots movement for change, like every other social justice movement in our country, and that's what we hope to ignite with Framed. We hope that not just those of us who work in this field or have been directly affected, but those who care about women's rights and these are male allies to join us in this, because that's really what it's going to take. I think there's been an increase in some news coverage of this topic, though we don't have time for me to list all the places I've pitched these stories that have not run them. I'm incredibly grateful to the ones that have, and especially Ms Magazine, which has allowed me to shine a light on this. So I think that's what it's going to take.
Speaker 3:I just think that and it's interesting because even people that I love dearly, that are close friends and family members, you know, we show them the book and I think Amy would agree is that you know people are like, oh well, yeah, but that doesn't really that's, that doesn't impact me. And and what we really want people to know is that this impacts everyone. And if I could go back to my child welfare days where there were I mean, I, of course, work with protective mothers. Now were experiences over and over again where the most important thing, no matter what the abuse was, was to ensure that we created visitation between an abusive parent and a protective parent.
Speaker 3:And oftentimes and Dr Stark actually exposes this oftentimes mothers are blamed in these situations for not protecting their children. How do you protect your child when you're a victim? Also, how do you do that? So we need to stop blaming women for not coming forward. We need to support them in leaving and we need everyone to know that again, we all know someone and this is like this is such an easy fix. It just feels like to me it's not rocket science. It's like how hard is it to realize that we have a problem in our family court system. It's not working. These people are not trained and we need trained people who understand the tactics of abusers. And then we need to pivot to perpetrators.
Speaker 3:pivot to the perpetrator and begin to call out their behaviors and hold them accountable, and children do not need two parent family homes.
Speaker 1:They don't. Those are great suggestions. So what are the strategies, what are the key strategies to getting, as you say, a grassroots movement off the ground, to getting change enacted in these courts and getting to the other side of this type of abuse?
Speaker 3:So we do that in our call to action. So the action steps for advocates is you know, listen, it is about finding your legislator, parliament members, whoever is active in victims' rights, and ask them to begin to elevate the conversation about course of control as the underpinning of all abuse and to pivot to the perpetrator, to begin to hold perpetrators accountable. We're seeing this in the UK. They've criminalized course of control in the UK. So this is the beginning of us, this movement. We need it to be a groundswell, as Amy refers to. We need it to be a groundswell. We need people to research and find advocacy groups that really will support this and then become active in those advocacy groups and find protective mothers organizations to support them and then maybe organize accountability advocates. Like we can have a lot of advocates but if we're not all on the same page, I think the problem and I'm sure you see this is that like we're all working in silos, right, and really if we could all work together for the common good, how much more power would we have? I mean, you know, I tell people a story or about a piece of legislation someplace and they're like, really, that that happened. They don't. We're not really having the conversations out in front, front and center, the way that we need to have them front and center.
Speaker 3:We also talk about in our book how to best support victims and like the philosophical engagement, like believe victims. Just let's believe victims when they come forward, understand that there is someone who tends to exert power and control through the systems, be aware of the terminology that is used, like understanding what DARVO is Like, when I, you know, I have a victim who comes forward to me, tells me her story, and then she'll, like, when I, you know, I have a victim who comes forward to me, tells me her story, and then she'll say to me, you know, but do you believe me? And I'm like, of course, you know, like just the idea that we're validating people's experiences, that we're not judging people for staying, that we're allowing them the space and the freedom to stay if that's best for them. But there's no shame in that and to lift the veil of shame honestly in all of this. So we specifically go through how to actually actively engage if that's something that someone wants to do.
Speaker 1:Excellent, and I'm glad you mentioned DARVO, because that's actually a subject we're going to cover in the coming weeks. I've already recorded the episode. I can't wait to bring it to everyone. But that element is something is a new term for a lot of people, but I think it's it's a really important one to know, amy.
Speaker 4:I would back up everything Dr C said and I think if you can spread the word about framed, that will help this movement. We want we want this book to go into the mainstream and we are very grateful that it became a bestseller on Amazon within a few days in the divorce and family law category. We are appreciative to anyone who leaves a Goodreads review for us, which you can do even if you're pre-ordering the book. I don't think we've said yet the book comes out on October 1st, but you can do even if you're pre-ordering the book. I don't think we've said yet the book comes out on October 1st, but you can pre-order it now.
Speaker 4:We are having abusers playbook workshops for anyone who pre-orders the book, which also educates women and starts this conversation happening. We really want to educate those who are out there dating right now, who are making the choice on the partner they want to marry. It's a business contract, so our target market isn't just, you know, our age group. It is, you know, women in their 20s and up to you know, the sky's the limit and, as I said, also men. Men have daughters, mothers, sisters. I have some male clients. I have men who update me on cases they know of, of loved ones that they can't believe.
Speaker 2:And some of these are attorneys who worked in other fields and can't believe what's happening in family law.
Speaker 4:So I think it's going to take all of us together talking about this and we hope that people will share the book.
Speaker 1:Speaking of the book, where can people find it? When it is released, I assume it's going to be on every platform all around the world, right?
Speaker 3:Actually available right now.
Speaker 1:It is a pre-order.
Speaker 3:Okay, yes it's on Amazon, barnes, noble, bookshelforg. I mean. It's in a variety of places and we're super excited to give people options on where to buy it from and grateful for their support. We do think this should be on everyone's coffee table. If you have a, as Amy said, it's kind of a red flag warning If you have a young daughter or son and you want them to know what the experiences are of women and you're trying to create equality discussions in your home. I mean, they're heartbreaking stories. This is a hard book to read, as you know, maria, but it's a must read and so if we can begin sharing these stories with young people so they're aware of the red flags before they get in relationships.
Speaker 4:Right and anyone can go to our website. It's narcfreepresscom. You can get on our email list. We also have a framed book launch group on Facebook, so if you would like to join us there, we have Zoom calls for our team. We have people helping to spread the word. You can be as little or as much as involved as you want to be, but that is a great community. You can find us on Facebook groups, so we hope to see you there.
Speaker 1:Perfect, thank you both. So much for talking with me today. Despite the onerous message of Framed, know that there are allies in the community for women ensnared by similar circumstances. Genesis, the podcast, is filled with resources in past episodes, including stories of survivors who have experienced similar challenges and found a way through. There are also numerous domestic violence agencies across the United States that can help. You are not alone. Thanks so much for listening. Until next time, stay safe. The 2025 Conference on Crimes Against Women will take place in Dallas, texas, may 19th through the 22nd at the Sheraton Dallas. Learn more and register at conferencecaworg and follow us on social media at National CCAW.