Podcast on Crimes Against Women
The Conference on Crimes Against Women (CCAW) is thrilled the announce the Podcast on Crimes Against Women (PCAW). Continuing with our fourth season, the PCAW releases new episodes every Monday. The PCAW serves as an extension of the information and topics presented at the annual Conference, providing in-depth dialogue, fresh perspectives, and relevant updates by experts in the fields of victim advocacy, criminal justice, medicine, and more. This podcast’s format hopes to create a space for topical conversations aimed to engage and educate community members on the issue of violence against women, how it impacts our daily lives, and how we can work together to create lasting cultural and systemic change.
Podcast on Crimes Against Women
Enhancing Justice for Victims of Sexual Assault and Domestic Violence: Insights from the DOJ Framework for Prosecutors to Strengthen Our National Response to Sexual Assault & Domestic Violence
Ever wondered how our justice system can better support victims of sexual assault and domestic violence? Join us as Fara Gold, attorney advisor for the Office on Violence Against Women, breaks down the Department of Justice's groundbreaking framework designed to enhance the prosecution of these critical cases. This episode promises valuable insights into building collaborative relationships among prosecutors, investigators, and victim advocates, ensuring a trauma-informed approach that treats victims with the utmost humanity and respect.
We'll uncover why building trust early in the prosecutorial process is paramount and explore a comprehensive guide developed by 120 experts to strengthen community confidence and offender accountability. By dissecting societal misconceptions and the gender biases ingrained in our legal system, we highlight the necessity of treating victims with fairness and objectivity. Fara shares poignant examples and actionable strategies for overcoming these challenges, revealing how prosecutors can better meet and support victims from the onset.
Finally, we navigate the intricate landscape of prosecuting complex cases, such as those involving sexual assault by private prisoner transport officers. Fara emphasizes the significance of corroborative evidence and expert testimony in addressing trauma-induced inconsistencies in victim accounts. We also discuss the pivotal roles of victim specialists within the judicial system, offering a clearer understanding of their essential support in trial preparations. This episode is a must-listen for anyone committed to advancing justice and ensuring a compassionate, trauma-informed legal process.
Please find the prosecutor guide here: Office on Violence Against Women (OVW) | Prosecutor Guide (justice.gov)
The subject matter of this podcast will address difficult topics multiple forms of violence, and identity-based discrimination and harassment. We acknowledge that this content may be difficult and have listed specific content warnings in each episode description to help create a positive, safe experience for all listeners.
Speaker 2:In this country, 31 million crimes 31 million crimes are reported every year. That is one every second. Out of that, every 24 minutes there is a murder. Every five minutes there is a rape. Every two to five minutes there is a sexual assault. Every nine seconds in this country, a woman is assaulted by someone who told her that he loved her, by someone who told her it was her fault, by someone who tries to tell the rest of us it's none of our business and I am proud to stand here today with each of you to call that perpetrator a liar.
Speaker 1:Welcome to the podcast on crimes against women. I'm Maria McMullin. In May 2024, the Justice Department announced a new resource for prosecutors of sexual assault and domestic violence cases, Known as the Framework for Prosecutors to Strengthen Our National Response to Sexual Assault and Domestic Violence Involving Adult Victims. This new guide is intended to equip prosecutors to build provable cases in a trauma-informed manner that treats victims with humanity and ensures due process for defendants. Today, we're joined by Farrah Gold, an attorney advisor for the Office on Violence Against Women, to learn more about this new framework. Farrah Gold currently serves as an attorney advisor for the Office on Violence Against Women with the United States Department of Justice, where she spearheaded the development of DOJ's Framework for Prosecutors to strengthen our national response to sexual assault and domestic violence.
Speaker 1:Prior to that, she served as Special Litigation Counsel and Senior Sex Crimes Counsel for DOJ's Civil Rights Division for nearly 14 years, where she traveled throughout the country prosecuting law enforcement misconduct cases and bias-motivated crimes law enforcement misconduct cases and bias-motivated crimes.
Speaker 1:There, Farrah developed national expertise in prosecuting government actors who committed sexual misconduct.
Speaker 1:She has published several articles and conducts nationwide trainings on effectively investigating and prosecuting sexual misconduct.
Speaker 1:From 2022 to 2023, Farrah served as senior counsel on sexual misconduct to the Assistant Attorney General for the Civil Rights Division, where she played an integral role in to 2023, Farrah served as senior counsel on sexual misconduct to the assistant attorney general for the civil rights division, where she played an integral role in the deputy attorney general's efforts to root out sexual abuse within federal bureau of prisons. Farrah was awarded the attorney general's award for exceptional service in 2014 and the attorney general's Award for Outstanding Contributions by a New Employee in 2012. She also received the DOJ's OIG Collaboration Award for Outstanding Contributions to the Inspector General in 2023, the FBI Director's Award for Excellence in 2021, and the Assistant Attorney General's Award for Distinguished Service in 2020. Before joining DOJ, Farrah served as an assistant state attorney for the Broward County State Attorney's Office in Fort Lauderdale, Florida, where she specialized in prosecuting sex crimes and child abuse. Farrah also serves as an adjunct professor at Georgetown University Law Center, where she teaches prosecuting sex crimes and vindicating constitutional rights.
Speaker 3:Farrah, welcome to the podcast. Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1:It's great to be with you and I'm really interested about this framework that you spearheaded at the Office on Violence Against Women. It is the Department of Justice framework for prosecutors to strengthen our national response to sexual assault and domestic violence, in particular, with adult victims. Now, domestic violence, sexual assault and the investigation and prosecution of these cases have been going on for decades and decades and decades. What prompted the creation of this framework?
Speaker 3:So in 2022, a little over two years ago the Justice Department released updated guidance for law enforcement on improving responses to sexual assault and domestic violence, and at that time, doj heard from everyone involved in the criminal justice system and beyond prosecutors, law enforcement, victim advocates that there should be guidance from prosecutors as well, and, of course, there should be right, because to effectively respond to these crimes, prosecutors and investigators need to work together. So that's why you know, that's basically what this framework does. Although it's written for prosecutors, it's just as applicable to investigators and advocates and victim specialists. So that was the impetus behind it, and the great thing about the idea that the Justice Department is the one the entity that put this out is that you know the Justice Department.
Speaker 3:I've worked here for 15 years and it's an extraordinary place to work. I still come to work every day and I kind of can't believe it, even though I'm about to hit my 15th anniversary. It really I mean, it sounds maybe a little corny, but it really is a privilege to work here. You know, I work at the Office of Violence Against Women now. I worked in the Civil Rights Division for 13 and a half years. Before that. I'm the honor of, you know, representing the United States. So just to tell you a little bit about like why it's so important that the Justice Department did this Our mission is to uphold the rule of law, to keep a country safe and protect civil rights, and that's what this guide hopes to do. And we set the standard as the department and in this particular case, set the standard for investigating and prosecuting these particular crimes. So that's a long way of saying that's what prompted putting together this framework.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's pretty complex. I've read most of the information about the framework, and the thread that runs throughout the whole framework is the crucial importance of the prosecutor and victim rapport and relationship. This framework consists of five core principles that align with this common denominator. Can you summarize what those are?
Speaker 3:Sure, and let me say the framework is 22 and a half pages and we wrote it to be practical and very readable. And I always say that, yes, there are five principles, and I could probably do hours of training on each one, so I will summarize it, but, if you indulge me, each time you ask me I'm going to just ask your listeners to read it. Okay, okay, gotcha, but there are five principles. So the first principle, as you said, it really focuses on the victim. So the first principle is to rely on the evidentiary value of the victim's account and use it to frame the investigation. And that basically means, if you think about prosecuting in general, crimes in general, we so often think about tangible things we can hold Right, the paper crimes, the drugs, the guns, things that we can see and hold. And the victim's account is what someone is telling you, but that's how you prosecute sex crimes, and domestic violence is what someone is telling you, but that's how you prosecute sex crimes and domestic violence. The victim is the person who's going to tell you what happened, and that evidence is just as valuable as any kind of evidence, and the law doesn't see it any differently. And so, as prosecutors, we have to rely on that account and base our investigation on it. And so principle one talks about how, at the end of the day, a jury's verdict is going to depend on whether they believe that account. So what do we need to do to build our case? And it talks about expecting counterintuitive behavior. Because we know that trauma affects the way a victim might recount what happened. We know that victims may not report right away, we know that their accounts may not be linear All the things that seem counterintuitive and that that their accounts may not be linear, all the things that seem counterintuitive. And that's what we need to learn about. The guide talks about corroborating certain aspects of the victim's account before and after the crime Because, again, the only person who can tell us what happened is the victim. So that principle one really says rely on the evidentiary value of the victim's account.
Speaker 3:And principle two you kind of just follow as your principle one, and it may sound pretty obvious, but it's meet the victim where they are and work with investigators and victim specialists to do so. Meet the victim right, like all prosecutors should meet their victims. And the two kind of core points below that are to have cultural humility when you meet with your victims, because we are all different, yet there's always a common thread, and I can talk more about that. And the other piece is when you meet with a victim, have a patience, have a plan and have a purpose. Know why you're talking to that person. Why are you not? We're interrupting people's lives and we're talking to our victims, so have that patience, a plan and purpose.
Speaker 3:Principle three is use the law and the evidentiary rules strategically and effectively. So what we mean by that is, yes, there's always room for the law to improve. Of course, you know I've been on the front lines of some of that but we have the law, we have the tools, the evidence, the evidentiary rules, the law, the statutes. Even though states and tribes and military and federal government we all differ. We have the tools and so we should be able to, we should use those and know those. And so it talks about statutory violations and evidence rules, using experts and thinking carefully about privacy and safety of our victim.
Speaker 3:Principle four is being thoughtful about what accountability and justice look like, and you know that's a pretty broad statement, but if we think about it, you know it's really easy, I guess, to look from the outside in on why a case resolved a certain way, why it was a certain sentence handed down in a plea or so forth, and this goes back to talking to victims about you know what they want to see happen. Prosecutors, we represent communities, we represent the people. So the United States is a federal prosecutor and as a state prosecutor Florida I represented the people of the state of Florida. Sometimes our goals and our mission align with the victim. Our responsibilities align. What we want to do for the community is what the victim wants. Sometimes they don't, and so there are just different ways to think about accountability, and so that's what principle four does.
Speaker 3:Principle five is sustaining a productive, healthy and committed workforce by redefining success. You know, this is one of those things where we all think about like you know, what does success look like and how do we stay in this work? Right, as someone who is in this work for 20 years, I want to be able to continue doing this work, but I also want others to do this work, and so you know, what do we want people to know about in terms of our leaders, and how do we sustain the workforce and how do we define success beyond just convictions? So that was the shortest I can do to summarize, but again, I hope everybody reads it.
Speaker 1:I think that was great and it really is a lot of information. We're going to try to dive into each one just a little bit with the time that we have here on the show Before we do that. Help us understand if the use of this guide is federally mandated and what, if any, measurable outcomes are applied that can demonstrate the efficacy of this blueprint.
Speaker 3:So it's not federally mandated, right. This is a resource and, like I said, it's, you know, the department setting the standard for how we hope that all of us address sexual assault and domestic violence. You heard the five principles. They're not complicated, right. They're the stuff we should all be doing. We call it a blueprint because it's a blueprint, it's a framework and we need to fill that in. I think, hopefully, hearing the principles and then, whenever one reads it, they'll see it's not something that even needs to be mandated, because it's something that we want to do to get better, to serve our communities better, to serve our victims better and hold people accountable, and it's all rooted, I should have said in the beginning, in the constitution on our obligation to seek the truth.
Speaker 1:It's also, it's also very human.
Speaker 3:You know, I will tell you that if anyone ever said to me like what is your, what would you title it Um other than the? You know the framework? Like what's your shorthand title? It would be how to be a human.
Speaker 1:So it's funny that you said that. Yeah, it really feels like there's a lot of um trauma-informed language, of course, and it just feels like, wow, this sounds like what it means to be a good person. I don't know.
Speaker 3:I mean I am. It delights me to hear you say that because I think you know prosecutors, some people love us, some people don't. I think that on balance and I was about to say the 120 people that I consulted with from all over the country, who've dedicated their careers to this work we all want to do right by people who are victimized. We all want to uphold the rule of law and follow the Constitution and ensure due process and, you know, sometimes that ends in a conviction. But at the end of the day, sometimes the only thing you can do for someone who has survived these crimes is to treat them with humanity Right, and I think that's why I mean that certainly was the impetus as to why I became a prosecutor was to treat people with humanity.
Speaker 3:So it really does warm my heart to hear you say that about it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, great, yeah how about measurables.
Speaker 3:So it's interesting that you say of measurables and you're not the first person to bring that up. So this, this guide, was the compilation or consensus of 120 experts across the country, like I just mentioned, and when I say 120 experts, I mean prosecutors, advocates, investigators, academics, people who have dedicated their careers to combating these crimes at all levels of government federal, state, tribal, military and rural jurisdictions, urban, suburban, everything. And so this is what everyone is saying. These are over the decades of what I've done that works. So it's almost like we're going backward in time for measurables. We're saying we already know what works. We want to share our knowledge with everyone across the country. So we know that success, however you define it, will come by implementing these principles. You know.
Speaker 3:I think over time, if prosecutors' offices implement them and follow them, I think you will see more trust in the community, because victims will trust prosecutors. Right, it like trickles down within a community. Right, if somebody has a good experience, even if it's, you know, it's not a good experience overall. Right, if you have to find yourself in a courtroom. But if someone is treated to what you said before, treated with humanity and felt like they are heard and have their questions answered. You know that's going to, that's going to resonate throughout the community and so maybe that will happen with someone. They will have, you know, a validating experience and then if something like this happens to a friend or a loved one, they'll say you know what? It's okay to go and talk to the police, it's okay to talk to the prosecutors.
Speaker 3:So I think that I think you may see more cases brought, because one of the I would say the overall kind of message behind this framework is this framework talks about meritorious or potentially meritorious allegations. So for sure, there are going to be cases we can't bring right. This doesn't suggest that everyone is always telling the truth, but what it does is say to everyone you know, look at the facts, look at the law, think about what a properly instructed jury would do, not what an imagined jury would do. And then, and you know, these cases are provable and here's how you prove them. So, bring the cases. If the victim is on board, you know, if the law and the facts support it, bring the cases.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I had kind of wondered when I was reading through this if it would encourage more people to report and, you know, participate in cases like this. And when you first started talking about the five principles, you emphasized the meeting, and the meeting with prosecutor and the victim is especially valuable. I always kind of assumed they were meeting, Is that not true?
Speaker 3:You know, I think sometimes prosecutors don't meet victims until sometimes maybe right before trial or late in the game or don't spend a lot of time. I think that happens probably more often with misdemeanor domestic violence cases where the volume is so great. But yeah, I mean it should happen. But I unfortunately have heard people who say you know victims who've never met with their prosecutors and I think on the whole people probably do. But I think this emphasizes meeting with your victims as early as possible in investigation and having a meaningful meeting right, more than just in the hallway or, you know, right before you go to trial. I mean, you know, when you're a very young prosecutor and you have lots of misdemeanor cases, even though they're serious domestic cases, because of the volume, sometimes that hallway meeting is there.
Speaker 3:You know that's not ideal, it's unfortunate because of the volume, but I'm. But in general, I mean I came from and this is going back my early part of my career. You know, 20 years ago I came from the Broward County State Attorney's Office in Fort Lauderdale where we had huge caseloads.
Speaker 3:You know I had 90 sex crimes at any given moment, but I met with every single one of my victims and it's a lot of work, but you do the work up front and it pays dividends, because I mean to your question about why it's so important, I mean it helps you evaluate your case.
Speaker 3:First of all, do you have a case? What statutes Prosecutors think about elements of crimes and what we can prove? Because that's what we need to know, what we can prove beyond reasonable doubt. Right, that's our obligation, but it also gives that we need information from victims to file certain pre-trial motions, right, I won't get into the weeds of that, but that's how we protect their privacy, how we protect the case. We need, you know, and we are the ones who have to stand there in a courtroom with them as they sit from their perpetrator talking about one, probably one of the most heinous things that's ever happened to them and it's stressful and it's scary and it's traumatic. And so they need to trust us, right, and that trust doesn't happen overnight, and so if we can meet with them early and start laying that groundwork, that pays dividends in that courtroom.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and speaking of that, you know victim integrity and offender accountability are two of the prevailing and guiding forces behind the framework. What do you feel is the public perception of how sexual assault and domestic violence cases are handled?
Speaker 3:You know, I don't know what the perception is in terms of how they're handled, but I do think and maybe this is in line with it, I think you know that the public is skeptical of bringing sexual assault and domestic violence cases. They're skeptical of victims, skeptical of bringing sexual assault and domestic violence cases, skeptical of victims. And in developing this framework and even before, when I was prosecuting civil rights crimes, I was going all over the country. That's how it worked. I was based in DC and I'd go over the country. I prosecuted law enforcement, sexual misconduct all over the country and you know I brought a lot of cases.
Speaker 3:But sometimes there was hesitance to bring cases, hesitance to investigate cases, and it wasn't necessarily about the law or the facts, but it was about some fallacies in society and I think that affects, you know, all of us juries, right, and so when I say fallacies and this is in the guide you can see kind of like woven in things like it's he said, she said, and it can't be proven. All we have is the victim's account, which we know is evidence, right, victims lie about rape and domestic violence, like we hear that all the time, and so because of all that society thinks we can't prove these cases. You know, it kind of it trickles down all over. Those are the juries that we are in front of, and so I think that's the perception right, that like we can't handle it, we can't bring these cases because we can't prove them, because of those fallacies about the law, about misperceptions, about victim behavior and things of that nature.
Speaker 1:I am curious about, like why the public perception of victims is so negative and untrusting when it comes to the sexual assault cases. Yeah, and.
Speaker 3:I don't know that this is so much opinion, right? I think you can kind of read it in the guide, so I will just. I would just say this you know, if you think about, you know if a I mean most. Let me start by saying this we know that most victims of sexual assault and domestic violence are women. Of course, anyone can be a victim of sexual assault or domestic violence and I don't want to take anything away from that. But let's think of a robbery victim and let's say that the robbery victim is a man who is well-dressed, in a business suit, who is out at happy hour and, you know, had a few drinks, and he walks outside the bar and he's robbed and his watch is stolen and he goes to the police department. And he walks outside the bar and he's robbed and his watch is stolen and he goes to the police department and he makes a report. The police investigate. I mean, that's it. They investigate, right?
Speaker 3:They're not saying yes, it happened, no, it didn't, they are investigating. You know they're not saying, well, you wore that fancy suit or what did you? You know what'd you think was going to happen when you, like, were drinking? Or well, are you sure you didn't give him your watch, right. You didn't consent, right, right, I mean. And if you think about it like, well, why? Why is why? Is the opposite true for sex assault and domestic violence victims? Right, like, what were you wearing? What were you drinking? Are you sure you didn't want to do it?
Speaker 2:Right when the victim is very clear.
Speaker 3:no, no, no I didn't want to do it and it's a. It's a large part, and this is really part of the framework. It says it flat out. I mean, this is a large part because those victims are predominantly women, and this is all based in misogynistic tropes. And this the guide says it flat out. Right, why are these cases underreported, underinvestigated, underprosecuted? Because there is this inclination to disbelieve. And for sure, this guy does not say automatically believe, you know, but what it does say is suspend that disbelief, investigate like you would any other case. That is what ensures our objectivity. We want to be objective and so, instead of making these assumptions, somebody must have been drinking, so therefore, right, they must have consent or whatever the assumption is like. Suspend disbelief and just investigate, be objective.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we talk about this all the time, about how if a stranger came up on the street and punched me in the face, it would be he would be arrested. It would be a crime was committed. He came up and just assaulted me. Yes, if I'm in my own home and my my own partner or spouse punches me in the face, that's a private matter. That is may or may not be domestic violence. I may or may not have instigated it and participated in violence, and I probably won't be believed that this was a pattern of abuse.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and that probably won't be believed. That is what makes it so difficult and why people don't want to report because they can't. They are worried that no one is going to believe them. And if I could kind of just bring it, you know, kind of full circle to your comment before about like humanity, like that's what we can do for these victims I'm not saying automatically believe someone when they come in, but you know, we can treat them like humans and when we do believe them we can say and tell them we believe them forward for whatever reason, sometimes a victim just being said, being told I believe you is really all.
Speaker 1:They want that validation right that in fact this did happen. That is exactly what Dr Judith Herman said in her latest book Truth and Repair that victims want to be believed and they want to be believed by the people who matter. They want to be believed by their families. They want to be believed by law enforcement, prosecutors, the general public. They don't care as much about the consequences to the perpetrator, as it is that people won't say that they're lying and understand that this really happened. Yeah, I think that depends, and that's why the guide says over and over again.
Speaker 3:talk to. Yeah, I think that depends and that's why the guide says over and over again, talk to the victim, right?
Speaker 3:The best way to know what a victim wants is to ask them. And I often say when I do trainings if you do in fact believe the victim, tell them. I mean, it's a decision a prosecutor needs to make at any given stage of a case. Certainly when we are sitting at that table arguing in front of a jury, the reason we're there is because we believe the victim. We can't vouch for that, we can't make that argument, but that's why we're there, because we have determined that the victim is credible and we can go forward.
Speaker 1:So is it true that prosecutors typically do not pursue cases that they feel strongly they cannot win, and how would the framework help address that?
Speaker 3:So I wouldn't look at it in terms of what can we win. I mean, the standard for bringing a case is if you have evidence to sustain a conviction, right, can you use the facts and the law to prove the defendant guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. And what the framework does is remind prosecutors that we are talking about a properly instructed jury. That means so in a trial, the judge gives the jury instructions. They're instructed on the law. It's a set of instructions which I often say to prosecutors and investigators. You should know those instructions from the very beginning of your investigation because you want to know how a jury is going to look at the evidence. So the idea is that we want to say to prosecutors don't think so much about what an imagined jury is going to do. Oh, a jury is going to look at the evidence. So the idea is that we want to say to prosecutors don't think so much about what an imagined jury is going to do. Oh, a jury is never going to convict because the victim was in custody.
Speaker 3:I mean, I used to prosecute, like I said, law enforcement, sexual misconduct. All of my cases, all of my victims, had baked in credibility deficits. They were in custody, jail and under arrest on probation. But the issue is like can we prove the case? And so she started worrying about I don't know if the jury is going to believe her because she was intoxicated Like what. Can she not remember what happened? Versus just because she was drinking, right? Or oh, she doesn't speak English, well, or whatever you name it.
Speaker 3:Whatever reason, it is what the question needs to be is do you have the evidence, do you have the facts? And and it is what the question needs to be is do you have the evidence, do you have the facts? And what is the law? And, using the framework, the blueprint that we gave you, these cases are in fact, provable, and I think we get hung up a lot of times on the lack of physical evidence or the lack of eyewitnesses. These cases you're not going to have dispositive physical evidence, you're rarely going to have eyewitnesses right, and so you have to rely on the victim's account. You know, the line I often use, which dates back to when I was a state prosecutor, is these crimes don't happen in front of an audience, which is a line I'm sure I stole from one of my colleagues a million years ago. So I I I bequeath it to anyone else who wants to use it. But I mean, that's the reality. So we have to show a jury why they can believe that victim.
Speaker 1:So how do you maybe give us an example of how you shift that mindset for the jury and for prosecutors to be able to work with victims and understand the difference between, let's say, cases they can win, victims being hesitant, victims being uncooperative and stuff like that?
Speaker 3:So nowhere in the guide or the framework is there the word uncooperative, right? We don't actually. I don't actually talk about uncooperative victims, right, because I think we can flake hesitance with lack of cooperation. I mean, it completely makes sense why somebody would be hesitant, maybe wouldn't want to participate on any given day, right, because we all have busy, crazy lives and lots going on and I, as a prosecutor, represent a really bad time in that person's life and they don't want to dredge it up. And so I would say to any prosecutor, any investigator tomorrow's another day, right, trial is a long road, and so that's why it is so important to work with victim specialists to continue that relationship with victims. You know, to build that case around a victim's account. That's why that interview is so important and I encourage, if you can and I often did this as a federal prosecutor working with our investigators early on to interview victims, because we as prosecutors know the elements that we need to meet. Right, those are the parts of a crime where we have to prove to a jury, and we know the kind of information we need and even the smallest details. You know, and I would say this, not everyone's going to remember every detail. It's part of human nature and certainly part of traumatic memory. But whatever details a victim gives, we can corroborate details leading up to and after right, and that buttresses corroborates someone's account. I mean, I'll just give you a small example of what that might look like.
Speaker 3:I had a case several years ago involving a private prisoner transport officer who sexually assaulted women all over the country. He would transport them on out-of-state warrants and take circuitous routes and drive into secular locations and sexually assault them and it's a pretty brutal case. He's convicted, he's in prison for life and I think those women all feel safe and I think they feel vindicated. But who is the witness to each one of those crimes? The victim right, no one else. And they are all in custody and a lot of them are in custody on low-level crimes. They were in custody and he capitalized on that right. He told them no one would believe them.
Speaker 3:But you know we had I mean this is a longer story, I used to do trainings on it but one example is that a victim told us that when he drove into this secluded area it was outside of Little Rock, arkansas. He stopped for about 45 minutes. Well, we got his cell site data right, his pings from his cell phone around that time and it showed that he didn't move for about 45 minutes when he should have been moving. He should have been dropping her off at the next jail. So does that 45 minute gap prove that he raped her? No, but it certainly corroborates her. It lends credence to her account. What was he doing when he stopped for 45 minutes? So that's like one tiny example, and if you do that as much as you can those tiny examples add up and paint a compelling picture for a jury.
Speaker 1:So can the same type of framework or something similar be applied to defense attorneys and how they can work with prosecutors to kind of overcome obstacles of issues with presenting evidence, victims being hesitant and so forth?
Speaker 3:Defense attorneys have a job to do, right, they're going, they, you know certainly. Defense attorneys have a job to do, right, they're going, they, you know certainly, in trial, their objective is to create, you know, to argue that there's reasonable doubt to get their client acquitted. Defense attorneys, therefore, are going to use a lot of what we see as hallmarks of trauma to their advantage. So I don't think they're going to work with us so much, right? No-transcript. You know, on cross-examination, if a victim sounds scattered or, you know, has disclosed over time and is therefore inconsistent, you know, I don't know that I would say that that is inconsistent, but that's the argument they're going to make to a jury. Is that, if this really happened, why didn't she tell the prosecutor everything right away, Right Like?
Speaker 3:you know, you know why is it? You know, if it really happened, why couldn't she give us the events in order? And so the defense attorney is going to use those, use trauma Right To to argue reasonable doubt to a jury. To argue reasonable doubt to a jury.
Speaker 1:But then the trauma. The science of trauma clearly indicates that a person who experiences a traumatic event may or may not remember the details in the right order or at all or at any one point in time. They may remember things over time. So defense attorneys should really read about this, because we're on to like their strategies right.
Speaker 3:Well, I'm sure they know that and I think that's why you know your trials are not trials. There's very little, I mean, there's always like a moment that you don't expect, but overall we know it's going to happen. And so the traumatic memory I think all the things you just said is a lot of times why prosecutors will call experts at trial to explain to the jury how traumatic memory works. Right, so that we can educate the jury and tell them yeah, I mean, this is why the victim sounds scattered or nonlinear. That doesn't mean the defense attorney won't argue that they are scattered and nonlinear because they're lying. I mean, this is not a mystery. The defense to every domestic violence and sexual assault, particularly where the offender's identity is known right, because most of these we know the offender the defense is going to be the victim's line, for whatever reason or no reason.
Speaker 1:And so that's who we have to work against, and we've seen so many examples of this recently, especially with the hashtag MeToo and the MeToo movement. So, because the cases really exploded, I guess you know in in they've increased so much, and the framework talks about the importance of using victim specialists. To your point, could you explain the role of a victim specialist and, for those out there listening who are interested in serving in an advocacy capacity, how can one become a victim specialist?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so we use the term victim specialist in the framework. That is the term that we use in the federal government for those victim advocates who work in prosecutor's offices with our federal law enforcement partners to help the victim through the process. In the Violence Against Women Act the term that's used is victim assistant, and then there's also victim advocates within the community. So it is important to distinguish between those victim specialists that are in prosecutor and law enforcement agencies versus those advocates that are in community-based settings. The significance is the presence of privilege, meaning that a victim specialist that I work with in a prosecutor's office doesn't have privilege with a victim, right? So the things that they say is not covered by any sort of privilege, whereas in community-based advocates there may be privilege. Community-based advocates are the ones who can provide counseling, maybe more safety planning, and so when we talk about victim specialists, I'm talking about the people that I work with in the prosecutor's office and they're so important because I mean for multiple reasons. First of all, they need me by my like representative, my envoy, if, if a victim is hesitant to talk to a prosecutor, you know, talk about um in principle, in principle to meeting with the victim, having cultural humility sometimes look. I am a firm believer that there's always a thread. You could always find some way to relate to someone. But I knew, for example, like I said, I was traveling all over the country handling these cases. I am I know you can't tell this from. Maybe you can hear a little bit of my voice. I grew up in New York. I am an East Coast person. I walk with crutches you wouldn't know that from seeing me on Zoom or hearing me on the podcast and if I show up in tribal lands or in the middle of Oklahoma because I worked for the Justice Department and I'm coming in from DC. So victim advocates, victim specialists, can bridge that gap. I think we all can. We can find commonality. The other thing is that victim specialists can refer victims to services things like counseling, things like crime victims compensation. Help them with safety planning, because we want victims to be stable. Not only is it a human thing to do, but the more stable a victim is, the better they're going to do when they have to testify, because it's rough and then just thinking about things like testing at trial.
Speaker 3:You know I am in there with that victim. I will prepare them. Until they feel prepared, I will go and show them the courtroom and everything. They may want to go see the court more than once and I'm preparing for trial. I can't or they may and rightly so need someone to sit with them before they testify. Absolutely, we should have someone sitting with the victim before, but I'm in the courtroom calling the witness before when they're done testifying. They've just been through the ringer, it's tough, so they need someone who can sit with them afterward. I can't because I have to call my next witness. So my victim specialist is there. I mean, they are indispensable. It sounds funny, but some of my closest friends are the victim specialists I work with because they're so integral, because they help bridge that gap.
Speaker 1:It takes a village and I don't I don't say that, like you know, to be flip or anything, but it really does in a lot of situations and it's going to take more people than just the prosecutor to get some of this done. I mentioned that prison transport case.
Speaker 3:When we tried that case, it was me and my colleague were the prosecutors, but we had seven victims testify from all over the country and they all had to fly into the jurisdiction where we were prosecuting it. But they all needed someone. We didn't really want to even put them in taxi cabs in the airport because they were sexually assaulted during transports, right. So you have to think about who you know. Who's going to pick them up from the airport? Who's going to sit with them before they testify? We couldn't have them sitting together, so like we had to have a lot of different people work with them and just be there for them while my colleague and I were in the courtroom. So it took a village for sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. I mean and these are all things that have evolved over time having all of these services and layers to support victims who experienced domestic violence and sexual assault this is not. This is new. Basically, a lot of the services that you're talking about. How would judges benefit from understanding the framework?
Speaker 3:So I think anyone can benefit from reading the framework because, as I said before, it was written to be readable and encouraging and practical. It is 22 and a half pages including the footnotes. So I've heard from judges who have read it who have found it helpful. You know, judges need to know about the dynamics of sexual assault and domestic violence, like everyone else who works in this space. The framework helps inform them about all of that. Where does it come in?
Speaker 3:If my victim needs a break in trial, the judge will better understand why. If I need a continuance because even though a victim was participating the whole time and is suddenly hesitant, the judge may understand why there are going to be issues in jury selection that we have to address and the judge may have a better understanding. I mean, I'll tell you this as I got older and worked on these cases more. Perhaps it's because of me too, I don't know, but jurors disclose more now than when I first started their own experiences of sexual assault and domestic violence. So judges understand the dynamics of it. They'll be better equipped to deal with it. So I think for sure just a better understanding of these kinds of crimes can help anyone in this space.
Speaker 1:Yeah, for sure You're right and you alluded to early on the idea of vicarious trauma, of being in this work for so long, and it can be really heightened for prosecutors. What recommendations could you share for those who may be reluctant to continue or even enter this field of work?
Speaker 3:So I am no expert on vicarious trauma by any means. I mean I obviously I'm not in the courtroom right now, but I'm still working on this and I teach it and I train and all of that. What I would say is, being a prosecutor, we have an immense amount of power, but we can use those. I mean we can. We should use our power carefully and under and wield it with the Constitution in mind and we can do a lot of good because of it, both for defendants and victims. Right, because we are the ones who make decisions as to whether you know, like, if a stop is unconstitutional, we can recognize that and we make sure that we adhere to due process rights. We provide everything in discovery and so forth, and we can also make a big difference in our community and in the lives of our victims. So I think being a prosecutor is one of the maybe the best legal job you can possibly have. It is the highest of highs which outweigh when there is the lowest of lows, because some of those days are pretty hard. But I would say that you know, principle five talks about sustaining a healthy workforce and a lot of that is on on our leaders, on our supervisors. But I really do hope that, yes, I want people to stay in this work, but I really hope you know I teach law students. I really do hope that, yes, I want people to see in this work, but I really hope you know I teach law students. I really hope that law students consider this work.
Speaker 3:I decided I wanted to be a prosecutor a sex crimes prosecutor when I was a sophomore in college, which is pretty early, and I'm so happy I did because it is the greatest.
Speaker 3:I mean the idea that you can help someone and and be that, be that conduit for humanity. It's just the greatest thing ever. So I would just say to anyone like, yes, it is rough, but nothing worth doing is easy, right, and the rewards outweigh the hardships 100%. So this framework is supposed to. I mean, I'm just going to say it is written in the first person. It is written with 120 people telling you like this works and we're all here for you, and so it is. It kind of is a symbol of this community practice around the country. It is encouraging because we want everyone to do well and so we want you know people who go into this work know that there is support right, there is support out there from those of us who've been doing it all over the place, and so I hope people consider doing it, because it is really some of the most rewarding work you could do.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for talking with me today. Oh no, of course it's my pleasure. Thank you. If you would like to read the framework and related announcements, you can find those on the DOJ website at justicegov. Thanks so much for listening. Until next time, stay safe. The 2025 Conference on Crimes Against Women will take place in Dallas, Texas, May 19th through the 22nd at the Sheraton Dallas. Learn more and register at conferencecaworg, and follow us on social media at national CCAW.