Overcoming Imposter Syndrome with Community Support

In this episode, we welcome back Sara Munro to discuss overcoming imposter syndrome. We delve into self-doubt challenges and effective strategies for a positive work environment. Sara shares her experiences and stresses open conversations and the need for a safe space to seek support without judgment. We explore workplace culture's impact on imposter syndrome, focusing on fostering psychological safety. 

Sara challenges traditional definitions of success, encourages the setting of realistic goals, and emphasizes self-growth. Practical techniques for building confidence and combating imposter syndrome are shared, including positive self-talk and mentorship. Sara uses personal examples to illustrate strategies, highlighting the importance of self-compassion. Our aim is to provide listeners with insights and tools to overcome imposter syndrome and unleash their potential in a supportive environment.

Transcript

Kristen Daukas: 0:05

Welcome to Conversations on the rocks. The podcast where the drink is strong and the stories are stronger. I'm your host, Kristen Daukas. And this isn't your average chat best. Here real people spill the tea alongside their favorite drinks from the hilarious to the heart wrenching each episode a wildcard. You'll laugh, you may cry, but you'll definitely learn something new. So grab whatever whet your whistle and buckle up, it's time to dive into the raw, the real and the ridiculously human. Let's get this chat party started. Hey, everybody, it's Kristin Okis. You are tuned in to conversations on the rocks. The show that is as random as me, but trying to stay specific. I again have my friend Sarah Monroe joining me. And if you listened in whenever she was here the first time I'll make sure I put her first episode about impostor syndrome in the show notes for this one. She's up in northern New England. And by now I'm going to say there's daisies. We're going to pretend there's daisies everywhere and Daffodil and right, tulips. So Sarah has got a ton of experience in a lot of fields, from fundraising and PR to digital media, and even a molecular biologist fancy. Sarah is now working with small business developments and gender equality organizations. And Tara cheers again.

Unknown: 1:34

Cheers, cheers. Here's my ELSS my ice is almost gone. But it's still cool.

Kristen Daukas: 1:40

So, Sarah, when we talked in our first conversation, we just kind of did a, if you will impostor syndrome 101. And there was some great content, I encourage you if you have not listened to it, to go back and listen to it. Because it looks very similar. But it looks very different to a lot of people. And one of the things that I wanted to bring you back on to talk about is how we can help. How can we help ourselves? How can we help our friends? How can we help our colleagues who might be suffering from impostor syndrome? So let's talk a little bit about mentorship and community support. And, you know, if you've got some examples of things that have worked, other than, you know, we have conversations, I think it's pretty easy to pick out. I'm going to sum it up retract, I was curious, I think it's pretty easy to pick out somebody who's suffering from impostor syndrome. But I think as women, we are so good at pushing things down, and faking it till we make it. And I think one of the things that would be advantageous to all women is for all of us to open our mouths and talk about it and say, Okay, I know that I'm really good at what I do. And I know I've had this conversation with you, with you ladies in our mastermind group. It's like, I know what I'm doing. Why am I struggling with this? Why? What is my mental block? What is it? So what are some things that we can do to, you know, help our sisterhood with this?

Sara: 3:12

Right, right? Well, we, in the last episode, we left, we left off talking about a squat having a squad around you. And that's one piece you had mentioned to me at one point, some of the discussion groups about podcasts where people are saying none of my friends and family are commenting. We say this as social media managers, our internal staff aren't sharing our posts aren't commenting on our posts to help amplify us. And when we think about a squad, when we think about support, it's not those closest and around to us, right? It's not our friends and family because often, they don't understand they know us in a different light. They knew us as children, or they knew us when we were still figuring things out, or we were students or whatever it was, or they just don't understand, or they don't care do they don't care. They care about us daily. Yeah, they care about us

Kristen Daukas: 4:12

as humans, but you know, it's, you know, they're like, Okay, that's great. Right?

Sara: 4:17

And so, here's, here's something when we talk about imposter syndrome or imposter phenomenon, whatever we want to call it, right? The not fitting in, it's because especially people who are breaking in who are the first or who are the first to represent whatever identity it is that they're bringing to the table. They're not feeling like they fit in because they don't fit in that someone hasn't been there. And we can feel it too if you're in a new position. I've been in positions that were brand new to the organizations that I've been a part of, and so I didn't fit in because I didn't fit in there. hadn't finished. So I needed to build that structure around me, I had to ask, in many cases, I had to be bold enough, it's really easy for me with, you know, the experience that I have to call out exclusionary practices, and I've had a lot of training in it to do it, I still get really nervous when I have to do it. Sure.

Kristen Daukas: 5:21

Nobody likes to buck the system on No, we love to buck the system. But we don't want to. I just don't think really it's in any of our DNA. Or, for the most part, it's not in most of our DNA. We everybody wants things to go smoothly, right? And at the end of the day, everybody wants to be liked, right?

Sara: 5:41

Yes. And I would say and accepted and accepted. Yet, I think there's a different the cultural shift. In the workplace, especially we're talking about the workplace right now, the cultural shift that has happened, thanks to Gen X, millennials, Gen Z, coming into leadership positions, or rising through or just our sheer numbers now that we don't see work as the end all be all, as it was, and especially after the last four years. And how many recessions have we lived through? This point, right? Yeah, exactly. Your work is not loyal to you. And so making sure that sometimes you to protect yourself, it's not your value, your worth is not in people liking you 100% of the time at work. And that's a hard realization to come to, and a hard cultural shift, given the expectations of most of the leadership that's out there that are still older. That yes, you we want you to be team players, we want you this way we want we want you to speak up, we want you to be yourself. As long as you're the self that we want. We we want that we see you as and that's where that not fitting in that imposter syndrome. am I faking it? Sometimes people are faking it and an n a knowledge base, but a lot of times they're faking it personally, right? They're hiding so many parts of themselves that contribute even more to not feeling like you're like you belong, right? You and I have naturally curly hair, right? Yeah, I've straightened it many times to fit in, and workplaces, or what's expected of me or there's a big event and curly hair is not professional. Right.

Kristen Daukas: 7:43

And I think a lot of our women of color, understand that they're people of color, not just women. I mean, who, but yeah, I'm on the flip side of that. I love my curls. And thank you menopause. I've lost them. So now I'm having to straighten my hair out. And I hate it because I liked my curls. But yeah, what up?

Sara: 8:01

Well, there's, there's lots of things. Yes, certainly, people would much diverse backgrounds than we have the fitting in. But it comes some of my personal experiences have been, I've used my middle name, my middle name is a surname. I've used my whole name in some workplaces, because the appearance of being married brought more weight to the words that I said, and the ideas that I brought up, then the master's degree and the years of experience that I had. So think about that, right.

Kristen Daukas: 8:39

Yeah, it's, it's, and one of the things I tried to press on my girls for years and years and years, which is, you're not for everybody. And that's okay. You're not gonna like everybody, everybody's not gonna like you. And it's okay. Yeah, you know, just kind of move on and just, nobody's gonna think about it. After a while, that person's not thinking that much about you. It's just like, and I think that's the other thing is like, Oh, my God, what's everybody gonna think? So I think that's another, you know, wheel spokes in the wheel of imposter syndrome. It's like, What's everybody gonna think? Probably nothing, right? A lot less than you think. What are some right? Do you think there? What are some strategies that you think like? I think self talk is a really big thing. But and I'm not a scientist, and nor am I a trained psychologist, but I love psychology. And as we were talking in the last episode, or in the last time that we had our conversation, is that I don't get impostor syndrome very much, right. But I know what my inner dialogue is. And I know the things that I say to myself, you know, on the inside and the things that I say on the outside, I'm a very positive and very self confident person. Hmm. And I'm not saying that imposter. Imposter syndrome is only for people that are unconfident or insecure, but largely they are. So in the workplace, do we even really need a division between? Because I would imagine somebody that's, you know, feeling impostor syndrome, in the workplace is probably filling it in to other parts of their life. Right? So it's not just the I'm not a good enough employee, or I'm not a good and I can't do this. I can't manage my team the way, you know, Billy over there manages his team, I would have to imagine that that rolls into at home. I'm not as good of a mom as Sarah is. And Sarah is always got these fun activities with her kids and these crafts and things of that Sosa HK comparison. Right.

Sara: 10:56

And the question, so I think the question comes, comes to what, what is success? Who's defining what is good? I am not as good as someone who set that standard. And is that standards still relevant? Now? My team works much different than like, like I said, I've, I've worked in roles that have never existed before. What I say is, I'm very comfortable with ambiguity. Yeah. And making things up, right. You know, we're, we're on a train engine, and we are drawing the map and laying the tracks and building the cars behind us as we move forward. Right, that kind of new position. And so success can be different success. We, we as a diverse group, can define what success is and what is good. Is this good? Is this, this event that we put together where we're expecting 300 people, and we had 150. Instead, the 150 had a phenomenal time, everybody who was participated in it felt like they belonged, like they had a voice. Is that success? Yes, that's success. Absolutely right. And so we can redefine those. And it can be a moving target to that success can evolve. And we have all worked in this high pressure, corporate capitalistic system for so long, that success is only a number or only a metric, or only checking off boxes, I hate people who just check off a box for the sake of checking off a box whether thinking if we spend one more day on this have we brought in one more piece of information that makes this significantly better. And I'm not saying keep pushing down deadlines and things like that. I'm just saying, the sake of checking off a box and saying it's done. And that success isn't always the best way to go. Kind of passionate about that. No, really.

Kristen Daukas: 13:03

So you saying that made me think of something I hadn't thought of in a while. But for about six months between when I left the agency that I was working for, and the pandemic I was working for Greek company, and the purpose of the company, they the company in Greece was the most the best highest, you know, whatever, the most popular Greek dairy company in all of Europe, right. And the man that I was working for 100%. Great, you know, this is going and he tried to make me feel in a way that would have made me conjure up some impostor syndrome. Right. And I was not having it. At that point. You know, I was divorced. I had I done my battles. I was in my late 40s. It was right before. Yeah, it was, yeah, it was that was in my late 40s. And I was like, You know what? It's like, well, when I was doing this, bla bla bla bla bla bla, and I'm like, that's not what we're doing here. You worked for Bacardi. With a multibillion dollar marketing. We are literally in basically a bootstrap. Yes, the main company has all of the money in you know, they've got millions upon millions and billions of dollars. We don't we're basically out here bootstrapping this effort. So and you've never he's, he was a traditional marketer. Right. So my long winded way of saying, that would have been a perfect opportunity for me to go, I don't know what the hell I'm doing. He's right. I have no idea what I'm doing right now. But I was able to recognize him like we're not talking apples to apples here, buddy. We're talking apples and oranges. And actually, we're probably talking apples and pears and oranges and pears, because it's not the same thing. So you can't compare. That's another going back to the comparison thing. I think a lot of the impostor syndrome comes from one people wanting to compare? Well, that's not how I did it. And then that makes the other person go, oh, well, if that's not how they did it, then that must be not how I should do it. And then you start tripping down the whole rabbit hole,

Sara: 15:14

right? And it gets so tiring to when you're constantly rebuilding and facing the old habits and the implicit bias again, and again, it gets tiring, and you and let's get back to that squad thing too. I've had I've had to have very trusted confidence to to say, do we keep going? I mean, how far do we push this, especially when you're working in equity and inclusion work to say like, how much are we going to keep going? And because it's so important, of course, we keep going. But we at least acknowledge and validate that it's hard. It's hard to make change. And then not when it rears its ugly head again, and you're excluded from a meeting about a project that's yours. And, and then be held to a different standard. That is not the point of the whole project. It's just like, Oh, it feels like I'm back at square one. And it's really, it's really hard to push forward. So getting back to that idea of a squad, who's not your friends and family. Unless you have friends and family who are working in your industry who understand the work that you do really well. I think it's really important to have that outside that outside support. And it's funny, we talk about masterminds, right, the the first rule of masterminds is not to talk about masterminds. It's something that men have always done, and different corporate structures have always done, if you are in the in crowd, then you are invited to sit at the table at whatever event or you are playing golf or tennis or whatever sport it is, I had worked in one place where this handful of people would go out to a shooting range, no joke, and come back with all of these ideas and say, This is what's happening. It didn't include anybody else in the decision making and wonder why people are upset. Right? So having that group of people where you can bounce ideas off. And I think it's critically important if you are working for yourself, or working for a small team, or like I have been in a position where I got to work with other organizations. So my my work was more external. And we created our own little mastermind or support group or collegiate whatever you want to call it. We became our own little workgroup. While we were still connected to our main organizations, we had our own little workgroup where we supported each other, and did problem solving and all of that, and you don't have to pay when we talk about masterminds. A lot of people think, oh, it's some subscription thing. You can make your own rules and make up your own group and find support in different ways. Right. So I'm in a mastermind, I also have an accountability partner, when it comes to we, we share she's more of an operations person, and I'm more of a social media person. So we share expertise back and forth. But personally, we're trying to do some habit changing, and we're accountability buddies. And so I know that she will hold me accountable if it was one of my friends, we would just say, oh, you know, it's 6am I'm not going to work out. No, you can stay in bed, you'll just say to your friend, no, you can stay in bed, you have a lot going on right now my accountability partner and I, we're holding each other, we're holding each other to the promises that we make ourselves to ourselves and to each other. Right,

Kristen Daukas: 18:54

and you have to do that. So you just run me of another situation to speaking of that, with the squad. So back in 1515 years ago, again, you know, I've been doing this for over 15 years, there was a group of us and you'll appreciate this, there was a group of us women, ladies and technology that we all met on Twitter, right so it's kind of like the former you know, remember the forums, the the chat rooms and things of that. So that was our, and I monikered us the broads who tweet the BW T's right? And I decided and I think just here last week was the 15th anniversary. The first one was was the BW, I call it the BW T. Retweet instead of retreat retweet. We went away we went. I rented a giant house down at the beach down at Carolina Beach. And there were a dozen of us. 15 of us that went down there for the weekend for Thursday, Friday. Saturday. We came home on Sunday. And all we did is drink coffee, sit in a circle and And because again, social media was very new at that time, but nobody wanted to let people know what they didn't know. And it became a safe space, it became a safe space for us for like, Sarah. Sarah could ask, like, you know, I know, I should know this, but, you know, how do I embed a pin on a website? And it was in, you know, if you couldn't go to somebody else, because we're like, well, don't you shouldn't you know that because your bla bla bla bla bla, it was the safe place to do it. And we're like, Oh, my God, girl, let me show we got you, we got you, we're gonna show you. And it was, it was the most amazing and incredible experience. And we did about three of those. And then you know, life happens, and it just kind of tapered out. And, you know, that's kind of like what we do. And it's just that place where you can you have the right people around you that know what you do, and can help. And there is no judgement here. Right?

Sara: 20:54

Right. And that can be that can be extended into workplaces too. When we talk about how can we make this systemic change, at least in the world of work? There's a lot, there's a lot of other things that have to happen community wise and socially and culturally wise to, but in the world of work, where knowledge is power, and people hold on to it. Right? How many times have you been in a meeting, you've been waiting for someone to give you information before the meeting, as part of your presentation, and they don't you get called out on it for a missing and then that person swoops in and says, Oh, well here and delivers it and gets the gets the praise. Typically, instead of people saying, why didn't you do that before?

Kristen Daukas: 21:37

Right? And it's not the person that failed to give it to you, that looks like an ass. It's you. It's

Sara: 21:41

you. So. So in the workplace, when we talk about how do we combat impostor syndrome, when people are feeling like they don't know what they're doing, or they're not fitting in is checking in with them. And, and creating a space where people feel safe enough psychological psychologically safe enough to say, I don't know this? And, and that's where you can say, Well, I do, let me show you. I had, I was in your position, I had a first day or I was in a learning curve. For every job. Everybody isn't a learning curve for every job. And the piece about social media is that they move the damn buttons all the time,

Kristen Daukas: 22:23

every day. That's why people like you, and I exist, because they move it every freaking day. Exactly. You know, something you said, I don't know if it was earlier in this segment, or the last time that we talked, we were talking about longevity, loyalty, you know, our parents in the, you know, in the boomers, they were they were in it for the long haul that doesn't exist anymore. And I wonder if some of this is if people aren't actually afraid, using air quotes, afraid to come and say, Sarah, I really don't know what's going on. Because we are such a disposable workforce. You know, because I do think people are just afraid that if they admit they don't know, something that they're gonna get, you know, booted to the curb. I mean, granted, that's worst case scenario, right. But it's the business environment right now is just so toxic itself. That every I think a lot of people feel that one false move. And you're out the door. I mean, how many companies do you know have any more than actually, a have an HR department be followed protocol? There's that little sorry, if you're not watching, I gotta love it. You missed that I got some thumbs up going on my screen. But you gotta go to YouTube to find that. But you see where I'm going with this? Do you think some of that is just that intimidation? Which, I mean, really, what is impostor syndrome, but being intimidated over a situation? Right?

Sara: 23:55

I mean, I think it's, it is complicated. Because the systems that are in place replaced by people who built them around loyalty around compliance around you need to fit into this box that we have created. And then expose values that say, but we want you to be yourself. So no. And when you show up as yourself, right, when you show up with your curly hair, or you show up with culturally significant clothing on or you speak a different way. Oh, no, that's not what we wanted. Right? So of course, people are feeling even more insecure, and feeling like they can't be themselves at work, either. And sometimes can't be themselves in their communities. Right. And I think it just exacerbates the issue. On top of Yeah, we are in a tenuous account. To me, and so I guess one of my recommendations would be adjust what again, that's what does success look like? Is it making six figures? Or is it making less and feeling better about what you do and feeling like you can be yourself in different places you can speak up, you can change the system. And yeah, coming from someone who's a career nonprofit, it's easy for me to say. But yeah, I think the other thing is that companies are going to get the backlash of the people who keep cutting folks, you know, you make the smallest mistake, that reputation as an employer is going to follow you there are a lot of forums out there. And people will say, I made the tiniest mistake, and they let me go, or now with digital products coming and going, who's going to work for a place that every five years cuts 30% of its workforce? Yeah. Right. So companies aren't really engendering the loyalty either. So but do they

Kristen Daukas: 26:08

care, and especially in this day, and time where there are so many companies that are buying companies up, and you know, they'll keep things status quo for six months, and then all of a sudden, everything's starting to change, and they're not making their way? Right. So what's left behind is collateral damage, or the teammates that, you know, came from the OG company. And, you know, so many venture capitalists like, it's like, the whole VC thing, the whole venture capital thing, whenever they come in, start looking for new job, like, start looking for a new job, because one of two things is gonna happen. They're gonna give it six months, do it the old way, then turn around and do it the new way. And then everybody's gone. That was from the original company, or they're just going to sell it either way, you're out of a job. So it's just like, kind of harsh, but not everyone is cut out to work for themselves. No,

Sara: 27:05

yes. By I hate work for myself. And boy, my boss and manager can not be easy to work with.

Kristen Daukas: 27:14

My never gives me days off. Yeah. Well, you

Sara: 27:17

know, when we talk about corporate America and capitalist toxic capitalism, you know, that's a whole other show. I can't help but think that it's going to eventually catch up with you with with them. I remember, it was a company in North Carolina. And I heard them they were like interviewed on some new show or something I want to say around 2000. I think they were called saps. It was one of the first software's or service companies and they actually are called saps. And the owner and founder of it said, the worst thing I can do for my company is take it public. And he built I don't know if it still exists, I don't know if they sold merge, whatever. But the way that they built that company where they they had on site childcare, they had intramural sports, they had a clinic, so like, you know, seasonal allergies, or you need a stitch or whatever, you know, little minor things. You could go there. Do you think about productivity wise? No, you're not you have your employee staying on campus and not taking two and a half hours of sick time to go have their sniffles checked out? Right. It's

Kristen Daukas: 28:34

a mutually beneficial thing. Yeah, it helps the company and it helps the the team members, right.

Sara: 28:42

And now I I'm based in the northeast, I think every community in the country has a housing issue, especially work workforce housing. Back when corporations and companies were building. There were company towns, I live in a rural state. And the company's like the Marble Company, Vermont marble is in the Supreme Court. It's in you know, these huge estates and all Washington Monument, all kinds of places. That company had housing, they would bring in workforces to learn the marble industry and to work and would provide housing and would have I know there's one big insurance company in Hartford, Connecticut, I, you know, they've merged, emerge, emerge emerge with Aetna, it's now something else. But they did the same thing back in the 1910s 1920s. Is that they had on site health care, they had a cafeteria, they had educational benefits, right. So do

Kristen Daukas: 29:44

you know what the difference is? That was a time when it was people over profit. And now Good luck finding any company that's profit. That's people over profit. It's all pro Costco.

Unknown: 29:54

Costco, this is true. Yeah, this

Kristen Daukas: 29:57

is 10. But I mean, okay, I shouldn't say nine but they

Sara: 30:01

are they're smaller, they're smaller, they're regional. They redefine success. And they redefine what they want for their people and their customers and their communities and their learning and they're more progressive.

Unknown: 30:21

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Kristen Daukas: 30:49

And going back to what you say about what a success look to you, I think that's another conversation that needs to be changed as a society, right? Because think about it. Every one is told if not literally than subliminally that your value is literally linked to your value. Right? And it takes you a while to and I know there's been study upon study done that it's like, Yes, that's very true. Money does make you happier. But only to a certain point, you have to be able to as long as you're able to pay your living expenses, right? And a little bit extra anything above that. There's a threshold like as long, if you can't pay your bills, you're you're miserable. And money is the only thing that's going to make you happy. But once you have all of your things taken care of anything above that is marginal as far as your happiness goes. So I think the dialect and the conversations we need to have, especially with our young people is like it's not all about the money. Yeah, sure. I mean, it's, if you want to make $250,000 a year, that's fantastic. However, what are you going to spend it because you're gonna you got to work the hours to make that $250,000 or whatever your number is, right? So it's redefining success? What does success mean to you? For me, it's being able to not work 80 hours a week, have the ability to only work with people that I want to work with, I don't want to you know, happiness, to me means being in a position where I don't have to take a client on who I know is going to be a nightmare client just because I lost one. And now I need to pay the bills. Right. So I know what my number is. And I think that's really important. I think everybody needs to know what their number is. Whether you work for yourself, or whether you work for somebody else, what is your number? What is the absolute bare minimum that you can make in order to go back to that threshold of this is this is the amount of money I have to make an order to pay my mortgage, my car payment, my insurance, my whatever? And, and then then you know that as long as I make that, I'm okay, now definitely make more than that. Hey, I might be going on vacation this year.

Sara: 32:58

Right. Right. And, and savings to savings be fiscal fiscally responsible. Yeah. So knowing what that I also call it the walkaway number, right? Yes. Where what's the number it's not worth it anymore for the grave. And getting back to the, the theme of the show, too, is in fighting that imposter syndrome. It's like, I don't belong here for a number of reasons. Because it's an part of that is that it's not fitting my definition of what I want out of my life. And what my why is right, why are you here? Why are you doing this work? And what it means to your success to and sharing that, again, what we were talking about a few minutes ago to knowledge is power, right? Sharing this these kinds of tips with people. Because pay transparency or finances, you never talk about money. Right? Right. Or that was a social norm that you don't talk about money.

Kristen Daukas: 34:02

And we're gonna start winding this down, but you just said something that is so important. And I think it leads into this. So you just you're talking about doing something that makes you happy, right? So if you are anytime I have ever been doing something that I am passionate about, have you ever, ever questioned your abilities?

Sara: 34:27

That's a really good question. Um, thinking back to one of my most favorite jobs, and I will name that job. A lot of times I veiled the bad stories I'll veil behind. Oh, once upon a time I did this. But the time that I worked in public health, where we were all smart, capable people who had great ideas and were willing to share them and try something we didn't feel impostor syndrome. Nope, in that space, no. And we, we worked with a lot of diverse communities, we had a lot of voices coming to the table, we had a lot of different communities to serve. And we thought beyond what had been done to what could be possible. And maybe that that is one of those secret sauces. I

Kristen Daukas: 35:27

just thought of that. Yeah, so the old saying, of find a job that or do something that you love, and you'll never work a day in your life. Maybe as we take an exit on this. Find a job that you love, find something you'd love to do, and you'll never have impostor syndrome.

Sara: 35:43

Yep. And I want to add something to this to just the whole piece about lifting each other up, whoever that each other is in your life. And I would say open the door to people who don't look like you open the door to people who have never been in the places where you have been to, is to remember that by doing that. It doesn't diminish your place either. I've, I've read and I've heard everybody quote this, you know, by lighting someone else's candle, it doesn't diminish mine. Sad right?

Kristen Daukas: 36:19

Now you got two candles burning and it's twice as bright. Exactly. Sarah, this has been such a great conversation. And anyone that knows us know that we could continue going on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on. So I guarantee you guys, Sarah will be back and we'll have plenty more to talk about. So until the next time friends. Lift your glasses high and your spirits higher. Take care everybody. See you next time. As the saying goes, you don't have to go home but you can't stay here and that's a wrap for this week's episode. A big thanks to my guests for sharing their story and to you for listening. Don't forget to share the show with your friends and spread the words and if you'd like to be a guest on the show, the link is in the show notes till next time cheers